What is the case for secrecy? What is the case for privacy? How do you think the world would change if there were neither?

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  • Buzz

    People would still be experiencing conflict with each other:
    “It says so right there, on page 1649 paragraph 24 that our products may contain unsafe and potentially lethal amounts of …, as shown in the legal case from 100 years ago detailed in appendix F. I mean, seriously, don’t you read the warnings before eating anything?”

    Isn’t absurdity fun?

  • Patricia Farrow-Bowen

    I was recently made aware of the abilities of our own US Army to see, hear, read anything and everything they might need in their efforts to keep the people of our country safe. I was told that they had drones the size of small insects that could fly right into ones house and project pictures back as to what they saw. These devices are being used by our Government to find terrorists in Pakistan as I write these words. Who knows where else on earth they are flying and collecting information? This information came from a reliable source and, as such, I believe it. Our conversation had to do with the satellite structure and capability of the the Armed Forces of America. Although I found this a bit creepy it really struck a nerve when I thought of the use of such devices by those that might be inclined to take away our rights to privacy through FEAR of the unknown TERROR that inevitably, in their eyes, is to come. I think rather than focusing on privacy and/or the lack thereof we should be putting all our efforts into eliminating FEAR. “False Evidence Appearing Real” to quote God via NDW. This is our biggest struggle. If all was truth there would be nothing to hide.

  • Rosemary

    One day we all will be able to read minds, then there will be no secrets.
    Usually one wants secrecy when they are about to do something that they know is not for the good of all concerned.
    Privacy is needed by people that know what they are doing is not acceptable behavior.
    The world will be a peaceable wonderful world when we are open minded and thinking about helping our fellow souls.

  • Buzz

    Relax. I am not with the department of defence. I do not have unrestricted access to use a remote controlled flying camera the size of a mosquito. I have not directed it into your home, and perched it in the groove between the ceiling and wall in this room. And I definately cannot see you reading this comment, leaning back, and laughing nervously. And by the time you spin around in your chair looking for a camera that isn’t there, I will not have moved it to a new spot where you’ll never find it, near the door or window. So don’t bother starting a new very thorough autumn clean up to look for an imaginary miniature flying camera, coz you’ll never find it.

    Muah ha ha

  • Lloyd

    If we are doing what we know in our heart is for our highest good, then we do not need to worry about what anyone else will think. There is no need for secrets, and we can approach anyone, look them in the eye, soul to soul, and know we are exactly where we are suppose to be, and what more can we do? Doing the loving thing for OURSELVES is doing the loving thing for ALL. It is the best we know how to do at this moment and when we learn to do better, then we do better, ie evolve, grow, change, etc. Isn’t this the true purpose of our existence upon this physical plane? No need for blame, or guilt or accepting anyone elses values, as long as we know our own heart and live our lives as a loving human.

    As for privacy, well I personally love my quiet time. I enjoy being alone, writing, listening to nature, just being within my own heartsong. So privacy is a good thing for me, but many others do not enjoy being alone, being with themselves, and this is fine as well. In my relationships with others, children, wife, friends, family, I often yeild my privacy time when I judge it needed, but I also resist many who demand my time for my privacy sake. It is a balance in relationships which I attempt to not only give others but also give myself the space needed to feel joy and acceptance.

    So what would our world be with no secrets and no privacy? At this moment confusing, and as Buzz has stated unattainable existence. Secrets mean we want to hide, but privacy is a personal space issue which we all have that can be balanced when we stop hiding our need for it. Being an anarchist who but each individual can decide what is the proper amount we need at this moment in time. It isn’t a moral issue nor a security issue, it is a personal freedom issue, and each of us must learn to find our own balance within it. Namaste’
    Butch

  • Sibila Reventlow

    I grew up in a home filled with what came down to no contact due to secrecy in a Catholic dictator-ship, a religious culture and a political structure both soaked in secrecy. What i have found is that secrecy is wired with lying. And lying is, at the least wired with disrespect and no real contact or exchange. In my view, secrecy is a tool for abuse of power.
    What I have found is, that the more I have dared to let go of lying and having secrets, the healthier my life has become from inside out. The more has contact and exchange flowered in my life. I have read somewhere, that the more truth words carry, the more life-force and vitality to they carry, which naturally enhances life where-ever true words are used.
    I think the world is changing, releasing more light, consciousness and love because also more truth is being brought forth by more people.
    Privacy has, in my view, much to do with the sense of owner-ship. This sense of owning tends to stimulate a reaction in us to have a right to own and have only for our selves. Also. I have noticed in my own experience, this only for me re-action makes my fear of loosing grow as well as my ability to plainly appreciate whatever I think I own.
    Maybe what I have learnt most about this in my own life is, that when we open our hearts, our open heart makes it a real experience for us that we are part of a larger flow and that we all in our essence have an equal inner worth. What I have experienced, with my life and the life of others is, that the more open the heart is, the less owner-ship matters. Sharing becomes a much more vital question, how can we share of what we have come to give? Also, it seems that simultaneously, owner-ship transforms into being entrusted or given the responsibility of for a life-enhancing reason.
    And then I am somehow out of words. Privacy has maybe somehow to do with personal boundaries also, with what I share with whom. I write maybe because I lack clarity of what I wnat to express. For example, yes, there is certainly a space of experience and intimacy that is private for me with my husband or my kids. Or my friends. And at the same time, I´m so keenly aware that it also is due to the love and exchange I have with them that I am who I am where ever I go, what ever I do. So my private time with them is within me where ever I am and also because I am blessed with them in my life, I am becoming more able to be sincere and transparent where ever I am. And then I ask my self – where is the private? The especific experieces I share only with them? The degree of intimacy I dare and share with them? What I am seeing is that what I grow into being because of them in my life enables me to naturally give away and set in motion in life´s flow.
    What I´m wondering is if the world transforms and transmutes through the power of love and consciousness so we naturally experience oneness more and more instead of privacy.

  • Inger Lise

    To me it seems to be a private process in the first place.
    It must comes freely and not “forced” upon anybody. Such as:”You`ll be a happier person if to follow in the foot-steps of mine,” won`t work in the long run.
    Individuality IS individuality, and so far in the development is it called individualization. To me is it freedom of choice/-the free will.

    Well, it is a very funny story how the opinions can be seen, if anybody wants to read it.
    This was told by an english officer of to have met in Thailand once upon a time back in the 1960thies(the english officer talking with some swedish friends, and of me standing behind him, listening in the background).
    But telling of the back-ground of the story a bit at first: The norwegian merchant Fleet became stationed in Scotland during WWII, and the ships got the new english(not scottish)officers to give the orders onboard the norwegian merchant ships. The ships participated in the convoys over the Atlantic Ocean during WWII.

    According to the speach of the eldery gentleman of an english officer when back then of to give an order to the eldery(especially one of the elders) norwegian sailors, they just looking at him without any reply, and eventually went away from him, or sometimes looking “through” him, without a word. The officer told of to be more and more frustrated, and highly mad at them after a while. Then it all culminated one day when to him, nobody onboard seems to pay any attention/-ignoring him mostly, which in the end did of him(the english officer), shouting desperately out:”Why does`nt anybody listen to the orders…it is mutiny.”
    Then a reply came dryly in the norwegian/english accent, the spoken words from one of the eldery norwegian sailors: You are not “dry” enough behind the ears, newly arrived from the school-bench, and if of us to have followed the orders of yours, of us to have the ship sunk before reaching the Scapa Flow.

    And once again sitates what the old english gentleman told the swedish friends of mine there and then:”The damned norwegian individualism, it is impossible of to give them orders at all.” (This was back in the 1960thies).
    The swedish friends of mine laughing as much as they hardly could stand on their feets, and with a blink on me, they exclaimed highly out loud of to agree with the english officer a 100%.

  • Lisa

    Let’s turn this around and ask ‘what is the case for keeping our most intimate thoughts and personal details to ourselves’? Almost everyone in my life participates in Facebook to some degree. Updating their statuses and posts with the most minute, ridiculous details about their lives. Many details that give away so more about the person than would seem at face value. My husband and I choose not participate in this phenomenon. We enjoy the fact that when people look for us there on Facebook, we are not to be found. We don’t feel compelled to have virtual strangers having a glimpse into our magical life together, all for the purposes of satisfying their curiousity about how we exist. We love our privacy.

    Unfortunately, along with the increasing technology used by government to obtain information, we (society) are giving ourselves for the taking.

    How would the world change if there were no secrecy and there were no privacy? I think we would no longer be human and we might as well stay on the other side where existence surely is transparent.

  • mewabe

    Apart from the use of strategic secrecy from government, the military, the financial elite and other entities that seek to gain and exercise power over populations or nations in order to control or exploit them, one of the causes of the most damaging yet very human reluctance to transparency is emotional pain.

    It is natural for anyone to want to protect oneself from hurt, yet many suffer needlessly by imagining that they alone suffer and that no one could ever “get” them, they keep their anguish, their despair very private, when what they really need is to open their heart and share, and understand the universality of their most secretly guarded feelings and needs.

  • Lisa

    I understand the universality of my most secretly guarded feelings and needs. And my heart is open to those who realize it and those who do not. I acknowledge the spirit in my fellow humans with every interaction and hope that on some level they sense this. My position in this world is a paradoxical one. When I am at work, my exterior is judged differently than my interior would prefer.

    Transparency, completely accomplished, would create a very heavenly and peaceful place to exist. I don’t doubt that. However, I am not sure that we as beings in this learning environment here on Earth are all really meant to accomplish that in this place.

    There are other entities who withhold information for what they believe is the common good. Under the explanation that we are not prepared to deal with esoteric, historical information about the truth of our nature and capabilities. If you haven’t read it, read the Priory of Sion. A secret organization, that leaks out information to, and perhaps maniputes, us as they feel we are ready to accept it. Another great read is ‘Jesus The exposive story of the lost 30 years and the ancient mystery religions’. This book actually led me to read the Priory of Sion.

  • mewabe

    As long as people have private thoughts, there will be privacy. Unless we all become telepathic and clairvoyant, it won’t happen in this earthly dimension.
    Privacy and dishonesty are not the same though, and we do not need to abolish privacy in order to be honest.

    At the social level, keeping people honest by having a camera on every street corner or monitoring every email and phone conversation is not contributing to their growth, quite the opposite. It is treating them like irresponsible individuals who cannot be trusted, and consequently causing them to become or remain ever more irresponsible and untrustworthy.

    Honesty achieved under total transparency would be coerced (forced, no choice), and anything achieved under coercion is never an expression of progress or enlightenment on the part of those who are coerced.

    In this realm, total spiritual transparency would force people to heal, emotionally and psychologically…because they could no longer hide who they really are, how they really feel, hide their inner wounds and fears. They could no longer act the opposite of how they feel, or say the opposite of what they mean, or say things that they do not mean (imagine how much time and energy would be saved!)

    There would be far less facade and acting and much more substance and actual being. Yet, again, healing would be coerced. In all situations and all dimensions or realms, it is possible to be authentic and real by choice, and choice is always preferable to coercion, and a more courageous and mature option.

    Without choice, there no longer is free will, and without free will, we are nothing more than puppets deprived of any growth opportunity.

  • Lisa

    I know there is a small portion of humans who have reached spiritual transparency, or are in the process, and a larger group who just have a stirring inside that something is about to change. It took me 20 years of hard work, challenging mySelf, accepting my mistakes, rewiring my thinking to get to where I am now. Hard work. It didn’t happen easily or without facing the most terrible things about myself or my past. Hate to say it, but most people don’t like the emotional hard work or even feel that it’s necessary.

    So now I’ve reached this spiritual place and try to offer guidance, direction, books, anything…. to those who have not yet grown, who are very limited in their world view, opinions, beliefs, whatever you want to call it, it is generally not received well or internalized. People cannot be spiritually healed until they are called by themSelves to do it.

    I guess what I struggle with here, is a world population that is totally spiritually transparent. In that, if healing comes only when the person is ready, at their own pace, within the confines of their particular societal beliefs and expectations . . . that is big.

    And just a note about the camera’s keeping people honest… it doesn’t. People slow down, stop etc until out of camera shot and then go back to driving like a speed demon or blowing unmonitored stop signs. And no one appreciates the technology today, until it is their family who is victimized in some way and it helps solve the crime against them. I could care less if someone reads my email, or records my vehicle driving down the street. I have nothing to hide.

  • Maribeth McFaul

    Secrecy not so much…. however I think everyone deserves the right to privacy. I am referring to the paparazzi photographing topless swimmers from 1/2 mile away using a telescopic camera lense. Publishing revealing or embarrassing pictures without permission is an invasion of privacy. “Do unto others…” pretty much covers it.

  • mewabe

    “I could care less if someone reads my email, or records my vehicle driving down the street. I have nothing to hide.”

    Lisa, the point is not whether someone has something to hide or not, but protection from intrusive government, or what some call the police state, which works like this: the government and its bureaucracies give themselves the right to intrude on a person’s life, breaking the highest law of the land in the process (the Constitution), but try to intrude on the government’s “privacy” or irrational secrecy yourself (even things that have absolutely nothing to do with the military or that is linked to “national security”) and you end up in front of a judge, and are declared an enemy of the state.

    The point of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was to protect people from abusive government, by limiting the powers of government. Today, government has all the legal powers a dictator dreams of, and our only protection are no longer laws but men, as when under monarchies…

    In other words all we have left in America that keeps us from tyranny is the rationality and magnanimity of the elected. If by mistake we were to unknowingly elect a madman or two, he would have all the legal powers at his disposal to implement the perfect dictatorship.

    I might not object to being monitored by government when it becomes reciprocal: when I (and the whole population) can monitor the government’s emails and phone conversations as well. But in today’s culture, it would be called “spying”. Do you consider this situation normal and healthy for society? I consider it a disease, and heading in the wrong direction.

  • Buzz

    I can see this exchange between Lisa and Mewabe from both perspectives, and even though I know it’s knit picking it’s Very important for moving toward agreement that correct terms and concepts are used.

    First, an American dictatorship could never happen in a capitalist society. Corporate law prevents it. Secondly, capitalism fundamentally supports and promotes oligarchical government structure, and that is exactly where most of the developed (western and eastern) world is today. This is evidenced by the widening gap between rich and poor. As we move ever closer to pure oligarchy for the entire planet, the 0.01% in control maintain this pyramid of control exactly like in the illegal pyramid schemes, and most modern religions. This elite group has historically been called illuminati. The invention of democratic republics provides the illuminati with the perfect cover for providing the masses with the illusion of power and choice as they elect a figurehead puppet.

    More constructive criticism to come.

  • Buzz

    Lisa is correct from a stereotypical point of view, because those doing bad get all the attention. If one person is doing 20 over the limit, people shake their head, “tisk tisk”, and don’t notice the 15 cars around them doing roughly the same speed, 3-5 over the limit. We’re all hypocrites. Further, if someone’s doing 5 under, many will lean on the horn and/or tailgate. This insane behaviour is why I refuse to own a car after retiring from 4 years as a taxi driver.

    However, I would tactfully suggest that we all have something to hide from a legal system that prosecutes and punishes people simply for not knowing or remembering or understanding all the intricacies of our massively over-complicated legal ststem. As human beings we are predestined to make mistakes. “Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.” -unknown.

    The idea that every adult human should have something resembling an unofficial law degree to exist in society peacefully is ludicrous and impossible. Taking 100% of the responsibility for ones actions is equally insane, yet that is exactly what is expected of us by judges: guilty or not guilty. And then there are all the people legally entitled to break laws, or have the power and influence to neutralize the prosecutorial process with clever defence strategies and acquittals.

  • mewabe

    Good point Buzz about the oligarchy…
    Also about law: we are all unknowingly breaking some law or regulation: there are well over defined 4000 “crimes” at the Federal level in the US, and over 100 is added every year. And this does not take into consideration state law and local county and city regulations.

    All it takes is an ambitious bureaucrat from some government agency you don’t know much about, and you find yourself in front of a judge for having broken a law or regulation you did not even know existed.

    That’s a far cry from freedom, and it gets worse every year.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703749504576172714184601654.html

    As the surveillance state expends its reach, more and more people will find themselves ensnared by the criminal justice system, which is becoming criminally insane.

  • Buzz

    LMAO!! A criminally insane justice system … the absurdity is hilarious.

    Have you noticed many laws at one level of government conflict with oppositionally similar to laws at a different level? Also, in addition to the levels mentioned, country, state, and federal, there are also international laws and conventions, that national and state laws ignore, and corporate policies like contractual terms and conditions that can be found ignoring laws from all other levels.

    It’s not just the justice system that’s absurd. It’s the entire system, and a unified law for everyone everywhere is NOT the answer.

  • Buzz

    Just finished reading the page from the link provided by Mewabe.

    ” Some federal laws appear picayune. Unauthorized use of the Smokey Bear image could land an offender in prison. So can unauthorized use of the slogan “Give a Hoot, Don’t Pollute.”

    And

    ” Justice Samuel Alito expressed concern about the law’s “breadth” by laying out a hypothetical example. Simply pouring a bottle of vinegar into a bowl to kill someone’s goldfish, Justice Alito said, could be “potentially punishable by life imprisonment.”

    Some of the cases detailed, as Mewabe said, are insane. I believe this is neccessary for a grand scale awakening as we head deeper and deeper into absurdity. Can you imagine the EPA and DOD working together, and criminalizing the possession and use of chemical fertilizer by anyone without a permit and approved runoff reclamation design, because runoff poisons the water table and creates algae blooms, and fertilizer contains nitrates that can be used to make a bomb. The same properties for algae and explosives exist in soap too. Where will it end?

  • Buzz

    Did you know you can be prosecuted under federal piracy laws, specifically plagiarism, for accidentally misquoting someone, and the financial penalties can be extreme if your misquote leads to a misappropriation of royalties for intellectual property owned by the government. If you’re unable to pay the fine, they can seize your property, force you into bankruptcy, and imprison you.

    For a misquote.

  • Lisa

    My last post was only speaking from a personal perspective. I don’t have anything to hide from the federal or local legal or political system. I wouldn’t have a job if I did. In fact, during my work days it is not unlikely that someone will be recording my interactions with citizens and placing it on you tube. I have learned to live with the fact that someone, government or citizen, is always watching.

    For any civilians out there, imagine sitting at your desk, cubicle, retail counter, etc and trying to go about your day, with some random person standing in front of you recording your conversations, flubs, and interactions with others then posting them online. How would this make you feel? Would it keep you from being rude, doing personal things on company time, more professional, more honest?

    Perhaps the laws and legal system need revamped, they are so many that don’t make sense. But we as citizens need to re-examine the amount of information we put out there voluntarily about ourselves in this now technological society. On one hand, we appreciate the instant access to information. On the other, we don’t want to be revealed.

    So then in our current system, isn’t secrecy or privacy necessary? There is an awakening happening, no doubt about that. Buzz pointed out about the number of laws and policies that contradict each other, or go unenforced. The real question is going to be how can all of the beauracracy consolidated, streamlined, etc in conjunction with maintaining people’s desire to live a more transparent existence. It is a HUGE undertaking.

  • Lisa

    And the answer to your question, mewabe, is No. This situation is not normal and healthy for society. We all know that. But it is our current state of affairs which we must function in at the moment. This is not enough time in the day here to have a complete discussion about all of it. I’d like to see this go from pontificating about problems to taking action. It all seems like baby steps but we are taking them. We saw it in this past election, people saw through the corporate ownership of the republican party and refused to be bought by them. Change is a comin’.

  • Buzz

    The same elitist group that owns the Republican Party also own the Democratic Party. Any candidate that tries to run for presidency without significant corporate sponsorship is treated much like a professional Olympic athlete without corporate sponsorship.

    There is very little action we can take, and the problem will resolve itself in due time anyway. The best thing we can do is understand what’s happening and stay out the way when those who recognise we need change conflict with those resisting change. It may result in a global civil war, of countries and governments ordering military servants to attack freedom fighters as terrorists, and lots of propaganda campaigns to convince people to choose a side.

    Would you choose your country and patriotic duty, or your dream to break the oligarchy, or your morality not to fight? Keep in mind both sides claim to be supported by God, fighting in the name of peace, freedom, safety and security, and will pay for your service. People who are found to not choose will be forced to join whoever finds them against their will, used as fodder, bait, slaves, etc.

    I know this is exaggerated, probably, for some areas of this planet, but places that have been in civil war for decades look like this, and the US has looked like this more than the one obvious example. So why not again, even in Switzerland?

    Are we better than that, or do we just wish we were?

  • Lisa

    You’re right. Both parties are owned, but by different entities with different issues at stake. With one being just a little bit less worse for the majority of people and the environment.

    You’ve posed some good questions which deserve some serious thought.

  • mewabe

    In my opinion we do not even have to worry about a civil war, or factions fighting each other…

    Has anyone noticed that there is not a single column or blog on this website about the so-called environment, about the earth and what we are doing to the planet, and how this relate to our spirituality or lack of it?

    It is because the human race is, and has been for a long time, centered on itself almost exclusively, and damn all other forms of life and the earth and its natural elements, which humanity thinks are there to serve us.

    Even some spiritual teachers forget about the earth, giving lectures on cruise ships, one of the most polluting form of unnecessary and boring travel, and taping spiritual videos and speaking about awakening and enlightenment while sitting in a leather chair, strangely ignoring the fact that this leather came from a live animal that was most probably raised and butchered in a terribly inhuman way.

    The disconnection is all around, it has become part of who we are, disconnected from anything that is not conceived or manufactured by humanity.

    Everyone on this site talks about human problems, and human solutions.

    From my perspective, which closely parallels indigenous people worldview and always has from the time when I was a child, we cannot (as in no way so don’t waste your time trying anymore) know who we are without finding our proper place within this universe of consciousness we call the physical world, specifically the earth, all of nature.

    Our place is not above nature, it is within nature, nearest to the center of creation as we can get.

    Not only is it impossible to define our identity separate from nature, but we cannot find any real solution to any of our seemingly strictly human problems without considering nature, including nature in the picture.

    Why? Because the way I see and feel it, most of our problems come from our alienation from nature, not just physical alienation, but much more importantly from a spiritual alienation from nature.

    Because most of humanity is now more connected to electronic gadgets than to anything else including nature, the crucial spiritual relationship humanity needs to re-establish with the earth and all its forms of life will continue to be ignored, and because of this, we will not seriously consider shifting to a lifestyle that is harmonious with nature, that is truly sustainable and balanced.

    The consequence of this is that the earth will collect the rent…it will shake its fleas (us), it will attempt to restore its balance the only way it can: by compensating extremely for the extreme actions we have taken, and continue to take, against the environment.

    We will get a major, global wake up call, but by this time it will be too late. Life on this planet will no longer support humanity, or only a few survivors. It has happened before in the distant past, and we still haven’t learned.

    If you think this is crazy doomsday talk, reputable scientists admit that this is where we are headed, not just because of global warming…they have known it for years, because we are destroying everything, and they understand it, in scientific, fact-backed terms.

    Meanwhile, we, meaning the majority of humanity, from the mainstream to the spiritually inclined, are still exclusively concerned about ourselves as would a bunch of unconscious, spoiled, self-centered children, seeking enlightenment, happiness, whatever, in the midst of insanity and chaos, worrying about the environment only insofar as damaging it can affect our well-being and lifestyles and those of our descendants, totally oblivious to the fact that the only true spirituality is the one that connects all life form as one, not just human life.

    I will repeat this because that’s the whole point of this tirade:

    The only real form of spirituality is the one that leads to knowing and feeling, and experiencing, that all life forms, animate and inanimate, are one, not just human life.

    “We are all one” must include the trees, the rivers, the air, the mountains, the oceans, the animals, everything. It is all part of us and we are part of it, spiritually and physically.

    Without this spiritual understanding we are spiritually and physically lost on this planet….we do not know who and where we are, and act accordingly as we have done now for so long, like dangerous fools.

    Hechetu Welo
    as my Indian friends would say.

  • Buzz

    Oh I so totally DARE anyone to challenge what Mewabe has said here. I will agree there are some minor semantic flaws in the tirade, but I have no interest in correcting them (this time) because his point is so way beyond important, urgent, and accurate.

    However, I have come to understand that our recovery from this insanity is impossible from several perspectives, and worrying about something that cannot be corrected only leads to anxiety and depression, so simply focus on the fact that everything is an illusion, and what we’re doing doesn’t matter, and that there are no victims or villains (including the animal from which the leather came, and the planet entire), and that there really is nothing we have to do.

    What we learn from history is that we do not learn from history. Don’t worry, be happy.

  • Lisa

    Eloquently said mewabe. I have just found my connection to you, this is where my heart lies. Right now I am reading Eaarth – Making a Life on a Tough New Planet by Bill McKibben who has been trying to get his message out about all things global warming since the 80’s.

    It is not crazy doomsday talk. The fact is that we are living on a different planet than the one in which we were born. Every single biological system is affected, becoming toxic. And for the life of me, I cannot understand how this is not important to EVERYONE. And I struggle to point out the obvious to people who don’t seem to care.

    It is always my metaphor to people in reference to health and wellness that, if they abuse their bodies, it will die and they will have nowhere to live. The same goes for the planet.

    Thank you so much for bringing this up.

  • mewabe

    Thanks Lisa and thanks Buzz…Lisa I have read a review of this book, I want to get it.

    I have used the same metaphor as you have about the human body and the planet…

  • Buzz

    I’ve attended a lecture presented by someone who understands one of the root causes of this issue, being global overpopulation, named Richard Heinberg.

    I was attracted to hearing him speak after reading the first major book by the now famous Thom Hartmann, called The Last Hours Of Ancient Sunlight.

    We’ve known about this growing problem for well over half a century, and what have we done about it? One step forward, a hundred steps back.

    So now we’re walking backwards, blindfolded, in flip flops, and can’t figure out why we’re tripping over the garbage we’ve left behind from our past, and why? Because we’re sleepwalking. When we walk backwards of the edge of the cliff, we’ll wake up just in time to have an awareness of what we’ve done just before we take another very long sleep, also called extinction.

    So till then, live large, party hard, and be grateful for what’s been left for us to play with by previous generations.

    Resistance is futile!

  • Lisa

    It’s rather disturbing data and no wonder that most people do not even want to consider the massive changes that will be coming if we don’t modify our behaviors now. A world of ostriches. To your question ‘has anyone noticed that there is not a single column or blog on this website about the so-called environment, about the earth and what we are doing to the planet, and how this relate to our spirituality or lack of it?’….

    Well I sure have. Be it global warming, dolphins beaching themselves, elephants running for their lives, inedible toxic seafood, the trash whirlpool in the oceans, indigenous tribes being encroached upon and modernized, the list goes on. . . it hurts my heart.

    When it all boils down to it, not that I don’t enjoy a good ‘human problems, human solution’ discussion, but I came here seeking a way to combine what I “see” with action on the issues that matter to me. And this is the big one.

  • Buzz

    Sir David Attenborough said, on this issue, “I’ve never before seen a problem easier to solve with less people involved.”

  • Lisa

    Buzz, I agree with you about overpopulation. And this is why my husband and I decided not to have children. We don’t feel the need to bring one more person onto this already crowded planet. There are plenty of needy souls here now that we can help.

    The change required is DRASTIC. Like, do it yesterday.

    If we live large, let it be sharing what we already have. And if we party hard, can we drink from reuseable cups?

    Resistance is useful! I’m pretty sure you’re the same person who once told me ‘a mission to change the world starts with one person’ . . . !

  • Buzz

    Can’t both statements be true?

    CwG and LoA both clearly state “What you resist persists.” The evidence of this is insurmountable and irrefutable.

    Yesterday was also too late. We needed the Kyoto Protocol in the 60s, the IPCC before we put man on the moon, and global limits on how many kids a family can create inherited from tribal traditions to oppose the Christian rules about contraception and abortion. Even today the only country on Earth to place an absolute limit on births is China, and for obvious reasons. What do chinese do to get around this?

    IMMIGRATE, to everywhere!

    Why does their government understand something we do not?

    CHRISTIANITY

  • Lisa

    Both statements are true. Maybe it comes down to what the intention of the resistance is, positive or negative. Perhaps we should call it something else.

    China is also booming in dirty energy coal production and use.

  • Buzz

    That’s true about china burning coal. I’ve seen photos of city streets in China, and testimony of people in those towns that swear they can’t remember when they last saw the sun, moon, stars, or the tops of buildings from the smog being so dense. It snows all year round, from an effect called localized dimming, and about half the “snow” is exhaust particulates from the generators.

    By the same token the nearby metropolis these generators feed experiences localized heat island, where it almost never snows, but the acid rain burns the skin and strips paint.

    In the fields where rice is grown, vast areas are flooded, and experience regular landslides, while others haven’t received a drop of rain in years, the soil cracked and devoid of life. Desertification at the most accelerated rate our species has ever seen. Recovery of the ecosystem takes longer from this than in Chernobyl, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and now Fukushima. The oceanic equivalent are called Dead Zones, where the water is acidic and contains so little oxygen fish suffocate.

    Now when you read this, if you are appalled your root feelings are negative. Every positive and compassionate thought, word or action you take from that mental space will be negative. You cannot beat the law of attraction. It’s like gravity, undiscriminating, universal, and always on (there’s always an exception. The law doesn’t apply in black holes).

    When you focus your intentions on what you don’t want, you will indefinately and inevitably experience more of what you don’t want. The more passionate your intent, the more bad stuff will happen. The modern environmentalist movement advertises all this bad stuff to motivate us to act: save the whales, don’t use plastic, stop abusive animal practices, end climate change. What do we get? More and more of all these things to resist, fight, oppose, object to, rally against, and get all rowdy.

    This is not the light, nor the way, to peace.

    But hey, it sure is fun, stimulating, and a whole lot of emotion.

  • Lisa

    Yep. I’m familiar with all that. Just read a story yesterday about seafood imported from China, Vietnam etc. Super gross and disturbing. For some reason I couldn’t paste the link. But it’s on Alternet.org under Enviroment/Food. The story is “Yuck: Our Seafood Is Loaded with Unspeakably Gross Pollutants” by Jill Richardson.

    We need to rephrase what we want in order to get it.

  • mewabe

    All we need is to feel and manifest, and express, our love for the earth and all life. What is missing in the environmental movement is this spiritual dimension…

    Again people are concerned about themselves….they want to save the environment to save themselves, their lifestyle, their civilization. That’s all they see. That’s fear based and self-centered, that’s why it is not working so well.

    That’s why I mentioned this crucial aspect of spirituality that is as dangerously missing from today’s spiritual teachings as it is from organized religions:

    We have forgotten that we are earth creatures. If we do not love the earth, we cannot truly know or love ourselves or each other…we act in ways that then reveal this lack of love, of respect, of gratitude for all life, of connection, we act as if we were separate from nature and all life, poisoning ourselves and each other (through the environment).

    We do not connect the dots because we are not connected, our thoughts, feelings, lives are fragmented. These are the outcomes of a spiritual alienation from nature, which comes from the mind that thinks itself separate from and above nature. That’s where fragmentation begins.

    It’s very simple…we have forgotten to love the earth, to feel one with the earth. Yet in this love, in this respect and gratitude is the answer, as love leads to right thought and action, unlike fear.

    The earth is our breath, our life, all life. How can we forget? How can we not love life?

    How can we speak of the Creator every day on this blog and never mention the Creation apart from humanity and its own dreams and challenges? That is such a Christian way…conditioning is hard to shake.

  • Buzz

    You can’t imagine what you’re up against in this rephrasing what we want goal. There is a US$700 trillion advertising and public relations industry trying to tell you what you don’t want, to keep you living in fear. There is nothing in our experience of reality that’s not branded, or carrying some sort of rule or warning message, and it’s a criminal act to ignore the rules. There are even rules about what water you’re allowed to drink, what air you’re allowed to breath, and most prevalently where you can go, what you must wear, and how you must behave.

    Ads and PR is not just directed at citizens as consumers. Billions are directed at every individual, in every department and agency, every level of Government, constantly. Laws are created and altered as a direct result of these pressures, which, for example, affects the duties of police officers. What would you do if a person couldn’t produce their licences to carry soap, a lighter, some sparklers, some electrical wire and a digital watch (ingredients for an IED, supermarket style). Making an IPD (improvised projectile device, ie a gun) is even easier.

    The entire world is working against me, you, us, to keep us as drones, zombies, consumers, and beating it at this games is impossible. We can only learn to tolerate, and as Marko says:

    Grateful, peaceful and loving at all times

  • mewabe

    Buzz, I knew I had the right idea when I was dreaming of living in a cave on some unnamed mountain in northern British Columbia…Not running away from civilization, but running towards life, to the more or less unspoiled wilderness, and to freedom (real freedom, not freedom of speech or assembly…tell that to a grizzly bear and he will laugh your head off!)

    I did not do it because I do not speak Big Foot fluently. Too bad.

    Did we steer the conversation away from the topic again? I think I did…I am a mild disturbance…

  • Buzz

    ROFL @ Mewabe.
    That was priceless at a Mastercard level of comedy. Well said. Isn’t it great to feel like a mild disturbance?

    Personally, I considered starting a cult, and pooling pledges together to buy a secluded section of the Appalachians or Rockies, setting up live camera feeds and microphones throughout the estate, and turning existence into a satirical parody of our insanities, like some of our sitcoms.

    The topic is what we say it is. Until someone changes it.

  • Lisa

    Buzz, I love that idea. Fortunately for you guys, I speak Big Foot. So we’re safe.

    The sad part is that it is not the whole world working against us. It is a small handful of puppeteers making us work against ourselves and it has to stop. Personally I cannot accept the demise of the earth sitting down.

  • Buzz

    Fear, as I’ve said before, is the most contagious idea, and ideas are the most contagious definable … “thing” that has ever been. It cannot be beaten out of us, war with it produces more war, fear of the demise of Earth produces more fear, especially more fear about the demise of Earth.

    Evil begets evil. Winning is impossible! All we can do is change our mind about it. Look on the bright side: we’ve had a good run, and it ain’t over till the fat lady stops singing, breathing.

    So have fun poking at our absurdities and insanities, like a child pokes at the bowl of indescribable slop placed infront of us. We have a choice. We can swallow this crap, and live another day, or throw it at mum & dad, and scream till they give us steak diane, wine, and mousse with icecream. Chances are we’ll go hungry, and get really tired of screaming in the naughty corner.

    The powerful few that are pulling the strings are our parents, and like a child we are powerless to stop them. They are way beyond protected by a labyrinth of layers of anonymity and people prepared to self sacrifice to protect their masters, including impersonation.

    Violence begets violence. Hate begets hate. Fear begets fear. Everything is an extension of everything else. Stock is owned by holding companies, owned by corporations, owned by holding companies owned by corporations …

    Stockholders tell the board of directors what to do, who tell the CEO & CFO what to do, who tell management what to tell labourers what to do, who tell advertising what to say to get customers to buy more products, services, and stock, and the cycle of greedy loyalty for profit and power makes the world turn.

    CAPITALISM IS BROKEN

  • Lisa

    My parents had a harder time controlling me and when the strings got to tight, I moved out. (great relationship with my parents now though) In my job, I am powerless to a degree by the command staff above me. But you are so right, the global puppeteers are way beyond protected. And there are many who whose invisible hands will never be known, who have others being the face of the task at hand.

    This issue is so big. But if enough people change their minds, their thinking, their focus…would that make a difference?

  • Buzz

    What you’re suggesting is inevitable eventually:

    ” Comment by Buzz on December 3, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    We’ve known about this growing problem for well over half a century, and what have we done about it? One step forward, a hundred steps back.

    So now we’re walking backwards, blindfolded, in flip flops, and can’t figure out why we’re tripping over the garbage we’ve left behind from our past, and why? Because we’re sleepwalking. When we walk backwards of the edge of the cliff, we’ll wake up just in time to have an awareness of what we’ve done just before we take another very long sleep, also called extinction.

    And around and round the merry-go-round spins, where it stop nobody knows.

  • Lisa

    Eeeks.

    I guess that is what is happening now with people now STARTING to acknowledge the climate change issue. Although no real useful plan of action seems likely to go into place, as I follow the reports about what is happening climate summit right now.

    In the midst of nature’s aftermath, when people have no heat, electricity, ability to charge their cellphones, no access to drinking or ability to flush their toilet, no access to the gasoline to run that generator that seemed so useful when they bought it….such as Hurrican Sandy. This is where awareness kicks in, during crisis. But now that the crisis has been averted for most, we are back to sleepwalking through the daily life. Until the next time.

  • Buzz

    Try thinking on a grander scale. Let your imagination run away with your mind, and forecast what happens when the atmosphere is flammable from released methane deposits in permafrost, or a worldwide rise in mean sea level of between 40 and 80 ft, or ocean acidification from absorption of carbon dioxide that only jellyfish can survive, or storms so powerful they change the landscape, literally levelling every known form of infrastructure including tearing the asphalt off the ground, freezing a tidal wave stone solid by dragging supercooled air down from the ozone layer, and hail with sharpened points like spears, long and thin and hard enough to penetrate oak.

    But it won’t happen suddenly, or all at once. First we get Katrina, then Sandy, then who knows? So nothing to worry about, since we can’t prevent it or protect ourselves. Catch phrases like “Earth is our only home” are old news. All we can do is …

    “… live large, party hard, and be grateful for what’s been left for us to play with by previous generations.”

  • Buzz

    Now here’s the really REALLY tough questions:
    Was ignorance bliss?
    Would you have preferred I kept what I know, and has all been proven scientifically, to myself?

    This is for all the people who believe secrets and privacy should be revealed, and we should move toward transparency:
    Are you going to try to disprove my claims with research and facts, or disregard me as a loony toon doomsday prepper alarmist freak?

    And if you find any truth to my claims, would you wish you hadn’t? Would you be hypocritical and say you only want transparency when it’s serving your goals, interests, etc, and shut the hell up about painful truths?

    We don’t like our comfort zone encroached on. How dare I invade your space, destroy your shields, and leave you vulnerable. Quick! Find a new way to protect yourself from the crazy scientist before I say something that shocks you out of your ego, or God forbid, your religion!

    Or you could just run from your computer screaming to mummy / therapist “The smart man was mean to me.”

    “There, there, it’s over now, he can’t scare you any more, especially after I put a few bullets through that infernal machine. It’s the devil, I tells ya.”

  • mewabe

    Very good point Buzz, will transparency be accepted when it leads to painful truths, whether personal or global?

    What of denial, which permeates most of our thoughts and activities? For example, do people really want to sit down at a fancy restaurant and be told of all the poisons, pesticide residues, GMO’s and lack of actual nutrition their expensive meal contains, which is essentially expensive and nice looking garbage?

    Since most of what we do and own has horrible consequences on the environment and consequently on ourselves and others, denial seems to be a basic requirement, which means no transparency, a blockage of information on a grand scale, and a zombie-like mentality…sleep walking indeed.

    If transparency was the norm, would anyone enlist in the military and go to war? Would not the entire world stop, once all the lies are revealed, not as “conspiracy theories” but as proven facts? Okay, so that’s the point…but as you said, are not the powers that control the strings way beyond anyone’s reach?

    So we can choose to remain idealists…faced with a cynical and brutal reality, one that is controlled by cynical and ruthless individuals. That sounds depressing…

    But…we can find infinite strength in nature (I am playing this tune again!)…not just physical but spiritual strength…remembering that the world we have created is currently nothing more than a passing disturbance on the scale of time. There is a spiritual power within the natural physical creation…a divine essence…this is true, it’s not a theory or a belief. From this power or force, much can be learned and gathered from within ourselves.

    Spend time alone in nature in a spiritual way and you will be transformed from within…then you can have a greater impact on the human world, because you will have found your true spiritual place within the universe, within the infinite and eternal “circle of life”. You will know who and where you really are. I experienced this intuitively when very young…

    Do I sound mystical now? And all of this before breakfast!

    I am with you Lisa, I won’t watch the demise of the earth sitting down…standing up, you get a much better view…it’s even better on someone’s shoulders…no, seriously, I am also doing what I can to stop the insanity, just for the principle of it. The best contribution is to do whatever can be done to change people’s consciousness, to help them change from within, so that they will know what to do. It’ s a reeducation program. It’s best to address the young, the older are usually too stuck in their belief systems and way of life.

    For example, very powerful messages can be put into children books. I now it sounds really stupid while the world seems to rapidly disintegrate around us, but it can be effective…anyway there are many grass roots organizations and movements creating practical solutions…at some point they may form a tidal wave of change.

    The way I see it, we do not need to fight the man, as some would put it. We just need to ignore it, ignore the centralized, insane system as completely as we can, and create a new way of life from underneath. It’s happening in some places, with the international transition movement and others…interesting things are going one. Locally where I live in lake county, northern California (a progressive place), these movements are strong and are doing things at the local level.

    http://www.transitionnetwork.org/
    http://www.transitionlakecounty.org/

    Also, we need to ally with contemporary Indigenous people…they have the right spiritual perspective regarding the earth and our relationship with it.

    If we are going to go on living, we may as well do the best we can to walk our talk, even if it seems hopeless. That’s how I choose to live anyway, to be true to my heart and spirit, to what I believe it means to be a human being in my relationship to all life.

  • Lisa

    And so you’ve taken us all the way back to the original questions posted on this thread.

    Sometimes I think ignorance IS bliss. But I have sight and there is no going back. And with that comes responsibility to do SOMETHING. What you ask? I don’t know yet exactly.

    For me personally, the hypocrisy is an important issue. I cannot enforce certain laws but break them myself. I can’t genuinely encourage others to stop hurting each other and find better ways to resolve conflict, yet treat people like sh*t in my own life. I can’t say that I want to do my part to improve the conditions of the planet, yet buy bottled water, burn toxic trash in the backyard, or not recycle what I do buy, etc…

    The hypocrit will not want true transparency.

  • Buzz

    Not to DO something, to BE something, like grateful.

    We are all hypocrites, and I can prove it, but not in this thread. Insufficient time.

    A true hypocrite, that fully understands hypocrisy, will both desire and resist both secrets and transparency, as I do.

    As for the more extreme examples cited, it is more difficult for you than I, as I am not sworn to enforce a flawed legal system, so I’m not expected to be so extremely good. When I do good, and bad, I retain hypocritical balance by limiting the effects as much as possible.

    My power, and peace, lies in knowing that good and bad don’t exist, all events and circumstances, including thoughts, words, and actions, are all neutral, and can be perceived as good from a certain perspective. I only need understand.

    Would you buy bottled water if no other source of hydration were available, and you were very thirsty?

    Would you burn toxic trash in the backyard if the toxicity factor were so low no one could ever know it was toxic, even if the smoke and ash were analyzed and declared safe by EPA standards, and burning it was your only source of heat and light on a cold Wintery day spent outside because the house was declared unsafe for inhabitation and you had nowhere else to go (loaded hypothetical situation, I know)?

    Would you neglect to recycle if recycling bins were not available in the public place you were having lunch, and taking your rubbish home to recycle it was not an option because you’re on duty?

    There is an exception to every rule. Being morally perfect is impossible, and the whole idea of morality is a Christian deception that in turn led to our defunct legal system.

    You know I’m just bitching, right? This is not an attack on you, police, the justice system, America, or our species, that’s a promise. Having said that, I’m not happy with Christianity at all!!

  • mewabe

    Lisa and Buzz, I have a comment awaiting official approval (because of a couple of websites about the transition movement, google it), it may take a week, by then this tread will have become old news!

  • Buzz

    The transition movement is fundamentally about building resilience to peak oil and climate change, both decidedly negative (disastrous) threats to our way of life.

    I have proposed there are no threats, ever. By working toward adapting to such a drastically new way of life, we ensure it will occur. This is Law of Attraction 101.

    Do you really want to be recycling your urine to drink the water content from it?

    Do you really want to have an entire crop of food growing in pots so it can be moved underground as a storm approaches?

    I say we play till we’re destroyed. I don’t want to live in fear any more.

  • Lisa

    Ooooh, I’ve googled and you’ve peaked my excitement. And am looking forward to your pending comment. Will it be a thread of it’s own by then?

  • Lisa

    If the drastically new way is about being self sufficient and sustaining through a positive community effort, what’s wrong with attracting more ways to do that. Don’t be a party pooper Buzz. Lol.

    I personally have purchased water filters, able to filter a million gallons of water with proper care, that can be used for dipping into the lake near our house, as well as, travel in third world countries. And if I have to pee in it, I have to pee in it!

  • Buzz

    Wikipedia Survivalist / Prepper

    The future we are most likely facing is called a systemic collapse, also known as a fire sale, because everything goes. This extreme kind of doomsday is nicknamed “The End Of The World.”

    Your efforts and investments to prepare for this scenario are a waste of resources, extending life for a few years at most, struggling to survive.

    That time and money would be better spent fully appreciating the present moment, enjoying our wonderfully advanced toystore reality, where virtual reality is all the rage. Dance, perform, create, engage, converse, play, and relax about the future till it becomes the present. Don’t be party poopers Lisa and Mewabe. Join me on the beach. I have Pina Coladas with little umbrellas served in coconuts waiting …

  • mewabe

    Lisa, my comment is on, at 2:01…that was fast!

    You should be able to find a transition movement near where you live, like the one in Lake county where I am (there is a transition movement under my house right now, a raccoon has decided to spend the winter in the warmer crawl space…who said survival was a dirty word?)

    Buzz, keep these drinks chilled, although I do not drink alcohol…but the idea is not just individual survival, which is a selfish and fearful approach…but recreating communities, creating a new way of life and being, starting locally (instead of waiting for the senile leaders at the top to act).

    The point is, you can have a lot of fun doing it, it adds to the quality of your life, and at the same time you get to actually feel empowered in some way. Whether the world will go on or not, it’s not even important anymore…we know we won’t live forever, so should we curl up and die now, or party till we collapse and die from exhaustion tomorrow, since we will die some day anyway?

    Nothing wrong with either approach, I can see the validity of both, but my choice is to contribute to change, not for my sake, not even for the sake of humanity (it’s old enough and has enough knowledge to make its own decisions and live with the consequences), but for the sake of the natural earth that I love so much.

    The earth will go on in one form or another, it will correct itself. In this correction, it is likely that much of humanity will perish…so even the earth does not need our help, but there is something central to my approach: I am ultimately not trying to save anything…I am simply expressing my love and respect, and gratitude, for the earth. And this causes me to act in ways that are compatible to social changes for the better.

    I stand for the earth because I love the earth…and in loving the earth I am called to protect natural life (as much as I can).

    On the other hand, I would not have any problem seeing human civilization collapse and vanish (if this could happen without anyone being hurt), so we can once again become natural human beings, live without money or jobs and nap under a coconut tree whenever we feel like it, until a coconut hits us on the head and it’s all over.

  • Lisa

    Come one now, it wasn’t very expensive and only makes sense to have around in the event I’d like some clean water to drink in the midst of a crisis. Do you propose when the grid goes down, I just forgo food and drink and shrivel into prune right before my own eyes? I’m not a doomsday prepper, more like prepared for unexpected inconveniences.

    Will you build a little tiki hut? I burn easily and the heat will probably be quite unbearable.

  • Lisa

    Mewabe – Earlier in this thread, I said that I came here to CWG because I was seeking a way to combine what I see with action on the issues that matter to me. That I feel a responsibility to do something to improve the unacceptable things that are happening to the earth and it’s inhabitants. I just didn’t know what yet exactly.

    I’m grateful to have met you in this space. Thank you for turning this thread toward this issue, you arrived with that just at the right time for me. I’ll be doing some research about transition network or similar organizations in my area. If there aren’t any, I may have further questions for you.

    We have a transition movement under our shed – a family of skunks has taken shelter there.

  • mewabe

    Thanks Lisa, I am happy to know you might be able to use this information…you sound like you are a great person and you will be able to make a difference because doing it from the heart.

    Interesting that one of the values or principles of the transition movement is transparency…so it is related to the topic in some way…

    I will be traveling in the next few days, so I am off for now. It was great conversing with you both, Lisa and Buzz…

  • Ravi Singh

    Both secrecy and privacy are fear driven.The desire to not let anyone know the real you in fear of being manipulated and taken advantage of.The true you is visible when privacy and secrecy are forsaken which may not be advantageous in the world we live in.

    If neither were there the world would have true freedom.

  • Buzz

    I think my strategy has come to fruition. A little overreaction, a little reverse psychology, a balanced variety of perspectives to promote conscious choice while being fully aware of consequences and benefits of each.

    Thanks heaps to Mewabe for completing the process. That second last comment was too perfect in wrapping up everything ghat both of us are trying to say, and beautifully confirmed in the following comments by Lisa.

    Having said that, helping you find your truth doesn’t mean it’s my truth. I’ve said it before, and it’s becoming a broken record, but I haven’t been insincere in my posts. I just really like seeing people find value / meaning / purpose in this cynical / depressing / brutal / ruthless reality, and my work is done here.

    “Now that we know who you are, I know who I am. I’m not a mistake!” – Elijah Price from the film Unbreakable (2000).