OBAMA: TREAT GAY MARRIEDS
THE SAME AS STRAIGHTS

Should gay married couples have the same rights under the law as heterosexual married couples? The administration of President Barack Obama says yes — and is going to the U.S. Supreme Court to argue its case.

Administration lawyers are asking the Court to declare Section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional. Section 3 is the part of the current U.S. law that says that same gender couples are prohibited from eligibility for certain federal benefits, such as the ability to qualify for and file  joint income tax returns, or to receive federal employee benefits.

In papers filed with the high court, the Administration said there are more than 1,000 federal statutes and programs arising out of current law that depend on a person’s marital status. Treating gay married couples differently than straight married couples should be illegal in all of these areas, the Administration said.

The Defense of Marriage Act, in fact, singles out gay people specifically, the Administration’s lawyers said, including couples who are legally married, having met all the requirements to achieve that status in the states in which they reside. Targeting them as this law does, the Administration says, is “a harsh form of discrimination that bears no relation to their ability to contribute to society.” As well, the present law violates the constitutional guarantee of equal protection, its filing before the Court said.

The court filing comes as little surprise to people who heard the President’s remarks about gays in his recent State of the Union message. On that occasion he said: “Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law — for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well.”

Opposition to any change by the Court in the Defense of Marriage Act comes in the main from Republicans in Congress, who say that the courts should stay out of the issue of gay marriage rights and let the people decide at the ballot box how they want these matters handled.

The Obama Administration told the Supreme Court, however, that there is a long history in America of discrimination against gays and lesbians. It also argued that sexual orientation bears no relation to one’s ability to contribute to society as an active member of the citizenry, and should therefore not be the basis of laws that fail to grant equal rights to those citizens.

As well, said the filing, sexual orientation is a core part of a person’s identity, and there is broad scientific evidence that this is not a voluntary choice — which is, the filing asserted, another reason why discrimination based on such orientation should be declared unconstitional.

But the Obama Administration filing saved its biggest argument for last. Gays, it said, have very limited political leverage, and what progress has been made on their behalf has not been uniform, and where it has taken place, has more often than not been the result of “judicial enforcement of the Constitution, not political action.”

The New Spirituality, of course, is very clear on this issue. Gays should not be discriminated against in any area of civic, public or private life, from housing to employment to legal rights and benefits. And same sex married couples should be accorded exactly the same social and legal benefits as opposite sex married couples. I can’t imagine a single spiritual reason why that should not be the case.

There are those, of course, who believe that gay sexual activity violates the law of God, and on that basis should be temporally illegal as well. Regarding this aspect of human behavior, everything should be “on earth as it is in heaven.”

But is it this way in heaven? Are same gender sexual expressions of love an “abomination,” as some declare that the Bible asserts – and so, therefore, that God says?

Is the Bible the infallible Word of God — on this or any other topic? If so, which topics? Every subject brought up in this Scripture?

Do you agree with the Obama Administration’s actions in requesting the Supreme Court of the U.S. to declare portions of the Defense of Marriage Act, widely known as “DOMA,” unconstitutional because they fail to protect gay married couples from discrimination?

What is the spiritual basis of your position, one way or the other? Let this be part of The Conversation of the Century.

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  • mewabe

    No one should be discriminated against in any way and for any reason whatsoever.

    Which is why I also do not believe that married couples should have more social and legal benefits than non-married couples or singles, whether straight or gay or anything in between.

    The laws that give greater benefits and advantages to married couples are partly rooted in Christianity, which equates living together without being married to “living in sin”.

    Isn’t time to let go of such ridiculous concepts, and to create laws that are not founded on obsolete Christian dogma or on the need of the state to encourage procreation?

    The Bible was written at a time when the world population was not what it is today, by a people who were threatened and were trying to strengthen their culture and race.

    So of course they condemned anything that did not lead to procreation. They wanted children, lots of them, to survive and become stronger. That was the idea.

    Every empire and ambitious nation subsequently espoused that idea, to encourage procreation, as they needed workers and cannon fodder in order to rise above other nations.

    Today, in some US states, specific laws still criminalize sexual activities that do not lead to procreation, even between a man and wife.

    Why are we still living in the dark ages? And why do some cognitively challenged political and religious elements struggle to keep us there?

    About making some sexual activities between consenting adults illegal, why stop there, why not putting animals away that engage in these same “abominable” activities? (there go entire bonobo monkeys colonies).

    And if God created these animals, was she/he/it absent-minded? Or is it the devil that makes them do it? Yes of course it has to be, it makes sense to me now :)

  • Inger Lise

    Much of the funny/peculiar material in the reality of ours, Mewabe.

    Well, do not wishes of to be seen as “the fanatic E.C.fan” thou.
    But the readings of his` will be quite “educational”.
    One of the MANY readings told of us to be ANDROGYNOUS at first when “manifesting in the earth.” The “sex” came later on, when of us did the division into two parts.

    Isn`t it the Shrimps which inhabit the both parts still ?

  • Therese

    Thinking about it, I suppose that when Neale talks about not thinking ourselves separate from God, as the starting point of change, the next step, for me, is changing how women view, are viewed, in this world.

    It is from the skewed view of women that many of the “not working” things of this world stem. This because women no longer nurture. Instead, women teach their sons how to dominate, and their daughters how to perpetuate the current status, because it is what the know and experience. Women could change the world, indeed WILL change the world, when they realize it is in their power, as the nurturers, to do so.

    Somehow they have to be empowered. Until the most influential person in our lives sees herself as whole, and equal, not less than, change is going to happen, but not quickly enough to be seen by me!

    An article my daughter sent to me pointed out that even the cause we are looking at in Neale’s article, Gay Rights, took a giant leap when it became attached to the women’s movement.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/feminisms-long-march-youve-come-a-long-way-baby-or-have-you/5323802

    In western cultures the improvement in the viewing of women is obvious, but still so very far from finished. The Half the Sky movement, and The Elders, among many other sources, point out so many of things still not working globally regarding women.

    So!

    Step one:

    Rethink our “separate” ideas about God and life.

    Step two:

    Apply that new thought to women.

    Step three:

    Women share that new thought with their children.

    Step 4:

    The world changes.

    My view of the new paradigm!

    Therese

  • Inger Lise

    Therese it is very true told.

    It is the women who teaches their children the most. But nowadays all of the females working outside of their homes, and leaving the children into the kindergartens/nurseries….it is exemptions from the rule(still)of course. And of course it is from the way of living. The high standard of living “demanding” both partners to work for the income.
    It is many mothers day.today life to be alone with the children nowadays, thou the children moving around between the partners. And further more, it is very common of of both partners to be married anew, and then it have become an all new family-conditon of to be; “mine, thine, and our children within families. All of a sudden the children have many mothers and fathers of to be relating with in the daily life.

    Otherwise the laws about gay-marriages equal with others are already “in place” here with us. The same laws as well.
    Thou, it is still some priests(they have the free will in choosing it) who is refusing in of to do the church-weddings between two of the same sex.
    Wonders of why they cannot go to the Town-Hall for a wedding instead, why is it neccessary of to go to the Church ? Many “ordinary couples” does it nowadays.
    It is allowed for the gay-couples in of to be adopting children as well(but it is still a highly controversial matter).

  • mewabe

    I totally agree with you Therese.

    Women will change the world when they fully realize the world they live in was originally created by men for men (patriarchy), and that its dynamics, which are based on coercive dominant power and ruthless exploitation, run contrary to the most basic spiritual laws as well as to the reality of the soul, not to mention the most basic intelligence and practicality.

    Women can re-invent the world, applying the skills of communication and cooperation, to create a reality where there are no longer any losers, when winning means we all win together.

    Indigenous women in India and Guatemala are reinventing their societies, by for example creating cooperatives which are sources of income for local villagers.

    And this is where I am not sure I understand why some people fight to get their piece of the pie, their share of “power” in society (as an example, women or gays wanting to be in the military in the US).

    The pie is rotten…why would anyone want a piece of it?

    The object here is to bake a new pie, to create a new culture and reality, not to struggle to get a share of the old rotten pie.

    The desire to fit into a rotten system is counter-revolutionary, to use an old term :) It is counter-intuitive.

  • Lloyd

    “We the People” means everyone is equal and must be treated the same. Imagine, a country of true free humans, where everyone has the right to be who they are, expressing life as they understand it to be Love. Do what you will but harm none. What a way to exist, don’t you think? No judgement of right or wrong, and everyone allowing others to express their hearts song of life. Yes it can be so, and it starts with me, and you and as we show others the possibility of existing in a life of unconditional Love our numbers will grow and soon the collective consciousness will sing the song of Life. Namaste’
    Butch

  • Kristen

    New Zealand has been going through this for the past few years. We compromised by having a Matrimonial Properties Act, which gives all gay couples the same legal rights as any de-facto or married couple (here after living together for three years you have the same legal rights as married incl half of their property, power of attorney if your partner falls ill etc). I don’t have a problem with this, you can’t make a gay person straight and we are way past that concept. I hugely have a problem with the word marriage being used though. It is a dictionary and legal word meanign marriage between man and woman who then become one as a couple. Are we going to change the legal definition of this word, therefore every dictionary on this planet??

    I have gay friends (I cannot handle camp!), but I do think it would be a good move to teach men to man up, get back natural testosterone by physical labour and more manly hobbies and sports instead of being desk pussies and as one friend put it ‘girls with a penis’, so they actually produce sperm with normal levels of testosterone so their offspring end up being straight! Likewise, females should engage in more girly behaviour so their female offspring are more feminine and straight.

  • mewabe

    Hey Kristen, I do not mean to offend you, but are you time traveling?

    Did you just land here from the 16th century?

    It must be quite a shock and I sympathize. With time and patience, you should be able to adjust without any problems.

    And you will be surprised to learn that sexual orientation has nothing to do with “manly” work.

    Some research about history will inform you about the Sacred Band of Thebes in ancient Greece, as an example of men who were not “desk pussies”, a troop of picked soldiers, consisting of 150 pairs of male lovers which formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BC.

    Both Alexander the Great and Ceasar, who were not “girls with a penis”, are reputed to have had a number of homosexual liaisons.

    Even thought I am straight, I find your attitude a little backward.

    As a matter of fact your definitions of “girly” and “manly” behaviors are so outdated they should be preserved in formaldehyde and displayed in a museum.

  • Inger Lise

    The world and the youngsters(not to take all unto the same bunch that is) are very sex-focused in these times. The TV-Commercials of all fashions as well, it is becoming “a cult, of some sorts.
    “Everybody” running around of to find partners who can satisy or complement themselves one way or the other, and it is explained as love. I`ll believe these “dealings” have arised just because of us to live within a Dual reality, and since “the beginning of time” as youngsters often does, (of us have done within all ages), they and us, cannot discriminate between the sexuality and Love.
    And now of course, “somebody” will argue of sex and love to go “hand-in-hand,” either it is of the Archetype-partnerships, or the other way around.

    Anybody who to have studied the life for a while(and experienced it)know of each Body have both the innate female and male impulses built within itself.

  • mewabe

    By the way Kristen, semen does not contain testosterone…this belief is about as outdated as your “girly” and “manly” concepts appear to be.

  • mewabe

    I agree Inger…did you read “The Nature of the Psyche” by Jane Roberts? Great book…

  • mewabe

    I was wrong Kristen, semen apparently has some measurable amounts of testosterone.

    However:

    A slight correlation has been found between testosterone levels and homosexuality. In both men and women, those exposed to higher levels of testosterone are more likely to be homosexual. It’s not clear exactly how this works, since obviously many men have high testosterone levels and are not gay. But several studies have found correlations between high testosterone levels and the frequency of homosexuality.

    What is the origin of your beliefs Kristen? It is from your parents, your society and culture? Is it your religion? It is your politics?

    When you look into your own soul do you find these beliefs there? Were you born with these beliefs already in you? Or is it conditioning, how you grew up? Can you tell the difference?

    I honestly do not understand how one thinks the way you do, and I honestly would like to be able to understand, and I am sure I am not the only one.

  • Chris

    In my view the issue is a no brainer. Of course loving couples of all types should be afforded the same rights as married men and women. Obama is in my view correct. Marriage does not need “defending”. Much of the recent controversy over gay marriage here in the uk, centered around the idea that religious institutions would be forced to conduct gay marriage services against the will of the religious group. It was suggested that the law would fail to protect religious freedom as gay couples would sue those who would not agree to marry them. The bill was passed narrowly. I see this continually in the news, the idea that it is “our” freedom verses their “freedom” and that someone must therefore “lose”.

    What interests me is, what are the assumptions and suppositions behind the worldwide controversy over how people choose to love each other? Here are a few:

    1: “Marriage is between a man and a woman”. I always want to say why? according to whom exactly?? who writes the dictionaries anyway? if we can redefine slavery as wrong we can redefine marriage as “The act of making a statement of loving commitment between spouses” I believe the word marriage loses nothing by being enlarged to include same sex couples. I would argue that this redefinition honors and acknowledges the boundlessness of love.

    2:homosexuality is a “disease or disability”. “I have green eyes due to my genetic profile. You have brown eyes. brown eyes(heterosexuality) are better than green eyes(anything else) and therefore green eyes are deficient” is essentially what this amounts to. Why assume this? see below..

    3:Homosexuality is “unnatural” If you frame this as meaning unnatural in an “against god” sense or in an “against the evolutionary impulse” sense, what is really being said is “sex is unnatural unless it is strictly for the purpose of procreation”. In which case 98% of all human sexual activity is “unnatural”. The repression of the human drive and desire to love and express that love is what is truly unnatural here.

    4:”men” should be men and “women” should be women. Dividing people into opposites is simplistic, dangerous and inhumane. It is simplistic because males and females are not just one “female” thing and not this “other” male thing. eg assertive. people are not cartoons. It is dangerous because this either/or logic reduces people to cartoons, cardboard people and justifies treating people as cartoons and stereotypes. It’s inhumane obviously because saying to someone “you can be strong and brave, but don’t be vulnerable” is mind boggling, contradictory and impossible.

    Okay i’ve said what i wanted to say, thanks.

  • Chris

    I forgot one: “Homosexuality is a perversion of “real” sexuality which is only ever heterosexual” This is a heterocentric position i’ve been guilty of myself. It’s a variation of the “unnatural” argument. It presumes that sexuality at the soul level when felt is only ever heterosexual. Imagine my surprise and confusion when i noticed homosexual feelings in counseling that felt honest and real and the same in essence as any other sexual attraction!

  • Inger Lise

    Okay Chris….here we`ll go again…. in of to learn how to be accepting everything. BUT, it is a “but” in nowadays world. In of to be able “to accept” indifferencies(because it is the free will in the play among us);the basic foundation of concept, in of “to know Thyself, to be Yourself, yet One with the whole,” must be a conscious development within each of us….no matter what it is.

    Mewabe, YES, I do have the book “The Nature of the Psyche” by Roberts. ALL of the books by Janes`have felt as “of to be the resonance within.”
    Maybe because of to have experienced several of “the things” told about in the books myself. Jane have explained in the many books of hers about how
    of us to have “the Unknown Reality,” at large.
    I am still of the opinion of us must Experience “the life by our own” if ” of to know.”

    P.S. It is always the many surprises “here and there.”

    When it comes to Obama as “the ruler” of a country(a larger part/area, of the globe in this case)…..Russia will be larger when it comes to the landmass`s by the way….is it a formidable task of to change the old Thought-Patterns within a whole nation. It is difficult enough within the smaller nations.

  • Pat

    “…the Administration said there are more than 1,000 federal statues and programs arising out of current law that depend on a person’s marital status”

    The solution as I see it is to get government out of the marriage business. All of these laws should be visited and marriage should be written out of them. From the government’s perspective there should only be “civil unions” or contracts between consenting adults in any reliationship they like – so long as nobody gets hurt. Government’s job is only to enforce civil contracts using the legal system.

    “Marriage” should be a ceremony that one can choose to celebrate or not celebrate, according to one’s own traditions and customs. Equal marriage is a start, but the goal should be to get government entirely out of the marriage business, where they had no business going in the first place.

  • Sally Cornett

    Since no one has shown up with prof of what REALLY goes on in heaven how can anyone say “on Earth as in Heaven”? Could it be possible that this is
    Heaven and we depart to Earth? For me. I get the CHOICE to create my own
    Hell or Heaven. So my vote is with Pres Obama.. Change the _______ law and lets get the county on the bigger and better things that who is sleeping with who!

  • Erin/IAm

    No! No! Adamently NO!

    One cannot support the ideal of ‘fair contribution to society’…whether by corporation, small business, community, or individual…yet continue to vie for ‘shelters’ from such under the guise of marital status, parental status, or any other personally based contrivance!!!
    (Under present direction, corporations will be able to ‘marry’ vs. merge to further their exempt options…Will employees then be seen as ‘dependents’? Shall We deem them as males/females, while We’re at it, so further growth of their dominance is fed by then deeming them capable of bearing children companies???)

    And what of our Native brothers & sisters??? Oh, that’s right…they are not actually part of our legalities…except when convenient to profit of someone or something. Leave them, still struggling from grotesque fore-parental behaviors, continued by All of Us to this very moment…and still ignored. To imagine sexual preference to be of priority in ‘equality’ to this ‘abomination’ TOTALLY defies Life Sense!!!

    You are ‘gay’?…Glad you’re happy! You are homo-sexual?…Good for you!…I wish you Happy, too. You have how many wives & how many off-spring?…Hey, you’ve got your own community going!…Rock on! You want to explore the Kama Sutra?…Just don’t move to Virginia (missionary only–by law!). But, Ooooh! You’re Single & happy?…too effin’ bad for you! You are married, but can’t seem to produce tax credits?…Sucks to be you, too! Native American & any one of these?…We still don’t give a rat’s behind! Illegal immigrant?…totally no worries!…You & your family are sooo covered by exemptions, by all means, enjoy your life here!

    This is what this man, this organization of present human management, and any individual who supports the continuances of primitive agendas that pit personal life against social life are saying.

    How are We to balance the economics & politics of Ourselves with the social aspect so out-of-whack??? One part is not to interfere with the other…they are supposed to ‘interface’ for the purpose of maintaining a balance, not a dominance of any! Is This not the vision???

    Are we to continue to live the Old Cultural Story simply because the New Version has not been published yet???

    MPO: Abolish the Act altogether & See All together…It should never have been, We know wiser Now…It is unfunctional toward new vision.

    Same as only using one Book to define Life…Small eyes, small minded, small-spirited!!!
    It is a great book, a fabulous read, with an ingenious legacy…I have a few of variety, with the many other beloved reads that come thru me. But examine this legacy, if you will…Secrecy is how it is managed…Different secrets define different dogmas…Secrecy runs along-side Transparency, does it not? Has not the purpose of this type of thinking been served? Is not Transparency what We are looking to try next?

    My vote: INCLUDE ALL, OR NOTHING!!! EVERY one or NO one!!! PERIOD!!! FAIR is Not Fair Other-wise!!! (One is Not One if it’s constantly picked apart.)

    ‘Freedom is the grandest gift of Love, and Love always (and all ways) seeks to give the grandest gift.” That’s as close to a “spiritual basis” as I Am in this moment, and my living contribution to the New Story, as well.

    These ‘events & ordeals’ that are & will be surfacing had better fall under this or similar spiritual basis, or ‘I’ will not support them…period.

    And that’s my not so final answer! :) Love you, Guys!

    p.s. On similar note, I do not support ‘legal weed’…Rather I implore for Amnesty or Ditching the whole sha-bang…Plant People do not belong under jurisdiction of Human People, & Human People should be Free to relationship with Plant People as they choose…Same as between each other. No? :)

  • Kristen

    Oopsy! Misworded and misinterpreted. Sorry.

    Mewabe, I’ve read several books that all indicate the same information, one of which was questioning why there is a higher incidence of gay offspring amongst religious ministers than the general population. In Neales book to teenagers I understand he indicated gay is genetic, which is why I looked into it, to clarify what he was saying. And yes, I found enough information and research to back this up, expect with the use of the word hormonal rather than genetic. Perhaps Neale could do a thread on this. I have no idea what I’ve read so cannot give you references.

    I’m non discrimatory, other than against evil (and probably perverts but that would be an individual definition of perversion), and i support our laws here. Including the Civil Union Bill which is a legally recognised relationship and ceremony between gay couples (which means gay marriage is legal here without the word marriage) BUT the point was I don’t think it is possible to use the dictionary meaning of the word marriage. Make a new word up. Thats all. Pat – you hit the nail on the head. Governments should have no place in marriage, but it is a biblical term. I didn’t write the bible nor the dictionary, and certainly don’t have the authority to change the meaning of any words. I have high functioning autism, every word is literal to me, it’s just how my brain works. I often find in here people, including Neale, seem to be wanting to change the definition of words, recent examples being spiritual, enlightenment etc. As CwG states in an earlier book “your english language is so limited”. Again, just make up new words for what you mean if the meaning differs from the word you want to use, but the legal/dictionary meaning is incorrect for your useage.

    Universal law also forbids anyone breaking or destroying any form of love at all, unless it is a breach of other universal laws or a psychological problem so there is no-one or nothing in existance that could ever intervene or be negative about any loving gay relationship. And to the biblical God Bashers (CwG as a whole!), a reminder that God was talking to Israelites in Israel only using the term ‘amonsgt you’. His term was ‘you are not to make love to a man as you would a woman’, and vice versa. Ie he forbade sodomy and ‘below the belt’ sexual acts amongst gay Israelites in Israel and those living amongst them, punishable by execution. This was the extent of his juristiction. Blame Paul, blame the church, blame nutters, but please do not put the concept of gay bashing against my God. Or me.

    Mewabe – girls are girls, boys are boys, it’s how we were made and how we are supposed to be. We look different, act differently, think differently, should dress differently, work and parent differently etc. I like that we are made so differently, like how guys are and think. We would be doing ourselves a huge service by embracing these differences WITHOUT MALE DOMINATION, and understood the opposite gender as we understand ourselves. i would hate to be in an all female world, or a world where are the guys were feminine, camp, or too much like females for the differences to be obvious. Likewise if you are a guy, I’m confident you wouldn’t like all the females in the world to have short hair, wear no make up, dress masculine and behave like males. I do look forward to your response to this. For this reason I do not want a gay or androgenous world.

    This isn’t a gay issue, it’s a language issue.

  • Kristen

    Mewabe again – sorry I didn’t answer your question, which i suspect was rhetorical. I was christened in an anglican church, went to a childrens Sunday School probably monthly as a child, mainly to wear pretty dresses and play bullrush, and because we got doughnuts and hot bread from the bakery across the road if we went. Mum tolerated church for our sakes as it was the right thing to do, Dad was and is probably an atheist, and there was definately no religion or spiritual teachings at home. Middle class white by the way. Late teens I became aware of the guides concept, and assumed these were guardian angels, and that the afterlife was the same as the biblical heaven. I formed a good relationship with 2 of my guides late 20s til early 30s, and was taught healing, was quite psychic and intuitive so being trained to do a type of psychological healing in conjunction with doing readings, and heading down a spiritual path under them. I read a CwG book, which didn’t make sense based on my basic knowledge of God, so read and compared the bible against CwG. I chose the Biblical God, guides were pissed, all hell broke loose, spiritual attacks etc, I was informed by a real Angel I was an Israelite which I had heard my Grandad mention, saw a rabbi who confirmed what he could, GOD CLAIMED ME AS ONE OF HIS BIG TIME, AND HAD BEEN WAITING FOR THIS LAMB TO RETURN TO THE FLOCK AS WE ALWAYS DO. Since then I have studied what I can, been taken up the kabbalic tree of life, worked for God and my main teacher the Job God and had lots of adventures. Oh yeah, the guides had thought I was one of theirs as something had tried to be reincarnated into me but got executed early on (it’s illegal in israelites). They took some convincing, I was not whom they thought I was and they had taught me so much from the afterlife camp they tried to get me to stay under them, and I undertook past life regression 3x to prove to them I had no past lives. I still have an ok relationship with one of these former guides whom occasionally sits as a weight on my bed to pop in and say hi and has been in a few of my kabbalah classes.

    I seek the truth and only the truth, and all my religious/spiritual beliefs are based on my freewill choices, and where they lead me. Trust me, it would have been so much easier to stay under the other realm, but hey, the right path is the hard path.

  • mewabe

    Thank you Kristen for your extensive reply…

    First I am sorry I was sarcastic…that was uncalled for.

    Your path is interesting, I cannot relate to it but I can understand it.

    About marriage, I agree that the state should stay out of it. People do not realize that when they marry, they basically have a contract with each other and with the state. The state deals with divorce as if it was an illegal breach of contract, and very often the penalty for men is spousal support ( a clear double standard, as in this case the state treats women, who are the majority recipients of spousal support, as if they were helpless children, or as if we were still in the 14th century, the time when alimony was created, when it was needed so women who had no rights at the time would not be destitute).

    I do not think that married people should have social, legal and economic advantages over non married couples or singles, but I already made comments regarding this. The state does like it when people are pinned down (by debt, by marriage, by a job), as they are much easier to control, and government loves control.

    I am indifferent about the gay marriage issue, I just think that all people should be treated the same. We can changes laws, and we should, as happened about segregation in the south.

    But can the government end racism, sexism, prejudices? I doubt it. Prejudices seem to come with being human…people appear to need something or someone to alienate. Somebody is too fat, or too thin, or too blonde or brown, someone has a different language, culture, religion, skin color, social status, and that’s enough to trigger hostility and the mob killing instinct.

    About boys and girls…yes we are different (vive la difference!), but not as much as society and culture would make us believe. Much of the “irreconcilable” differences, the difference that cause the break-up of relationships, that make women and men feel like they will never understand each other, come from culture and conditioning, in other words they are made up.

    We could do away with those outdated versions of femininity and masculinity…understanding that we are all human, we all feel similar feelings, have similar fears and insecurities, hopes and joys, equivalent strength and weaknesses, and yes, women can be very strong (look at pregnancy and delivering a child) and men can be vulnerable (we are not made of steel).

    Women wanted men to whom they could relate…who would be sensitive, who could express their feelings and communicate beyond a few grunts, they got weary of the silent, emotionally constipated type.

    In my opinion, as men we still suffer from attempting to fit into the impossible masculinity mold society and culture impose on us. That’s probably why I had such a strong reaction to your previous comments.

    Women cannot have it both ways…if you want someone who is sensitive to your needs, he will have to be sensitive to his own as well.

    If you want someone who is emotionally opened to you, he will have to be opened to his own emotions and feelings. If you want someone who is understanding, he will have to understand himself.

    But if you want a squared-jawed warrior who goes out each morning to conquer and subdue the world as in the good old days, then don’t expect sensitivity, much emotional communication or closeness, much understanding or even to have anything in common by the end of the day.

    The warrior type does not have much use for a woman except for the obvious, and prefers the company of other men to play competitive, dominance games (figuring out the pecking order).

    When a man is not allowed to express his humanity, he ends up no longer being fully human. That’s where abuse originates. I think a lot of women have figured this out.

    On the other hand when a man learns how to cry, he learns understanding and compassion, he learns about his own humanity, and treats others humanly.

    Native Americans men were not “sissies” by any means, yet they were able to cry. As a matter of act the vision quest was called “crying for a vision”.

    I think we need to let go of the very old stereotypes about masculinity and femininity, if we want to actually evolve.

  • Inger Lise

    Hello good people.

    To me the word “God” (the old biblical mighty “God”), no more will be the same as once of to have had “the image” of to be.

    I have picked up another old book of mine(the fourth printing of it, from 1939). btw: I`m borned late 1945…. The book is titled “Across the Unknown” by Stewart Edward White.

    Sitates something told in it(the pages all “yellow-beige,” of the old age).

    “ALL progress leads from the more material to the less material; until at length it conducts us into regions where reality is perceived without the use of any laborious material structure at all.
    You yourselves(Betty White)know that individuals of higher mentality do not always have to pass through a material experience.
    If they are cognizant of its cause and effect, they can grasp it without painstakingly suffering it; they do not need the laborious material structure to see its reality.
    It is the same way in the still higher levels beyond. You are leading up to a consciousness of reality without its material shadows, its material reflections, its material manifestations, as aids to comprehension.” —sitates ending—

    Hmm, not bad is it?

    The same author have a book titled: “The Unobstructed Universe.”

    Actually….We are exploring the new frontiers of consciounsess….all of us.

    And Barack Obama will be among them(the new consciousness, shaking the old ones up).

  • Sherry

    Yes, everyone should have the right to find the partner of their choice. For I do not believe the bible is the word of God as it has far too many rules that don’t jive with free will.

  • Nancy Dodd

    The matter of same sex marriage goes down to a very core element, which is identifying exactly what/who we are. Are we male, female, republican, democrat, this race or that culture, who are we exactly? At the time of birth, we acknowledge the genitalia, and thus begins years and years of conditioning based solely on a particular body part, instead of focusing on nature, talents and abilities.

    This goes past the body that we temporarily inhabit, and goes to the core essence, which is our soul. The soul is androgenous, comprised of many different abilities, skills, and attributes, some of which are categorized on this planet, as male, and some as female. Part of the self-realization process is releasing ourselves from the limitations that are imposed by sex role stereotypes. Real Love, is not limited to the body, and real love always includes the freedom of choice. Even though we may not agree with or understand same sex marriage, it really comes down to giving everyone the freedom to choose whom to love. If we say we understand love, but cannot give others the freedom to choose, then we are working out of conditional love, not real love. Real Love is unconditional, and sees past all bodily, societal and cultural limitations; real love sees the sincerity of the heart.

  • kelli larkspur

    Gays should absolutely be treated as straights in regard to marriage. From a spiritual basis my position is that humans are genderless in their spirit. In human form they may identify primarily with one gender or another but whom they are allowed by government to form life-long bonds with and legal-marriage states with shouldn’t be restricted to only one form of expression that of the heterosexual relationship. Some religions say this is the only marriage acceptable to God. Other religions define acceptable marriage differently. Native Americans often regarded held gay people with respect. http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america The fact is that LOVE is what’s acceptable to God, and He didn’t create us male and female but rather as unique spirits without gender when not on the Earth-plane, and of various gender-expressions when on the Earth-plane. Restricting marriage to heterosexual relationships is narrow-minded and disrespectful. The Bible is not the only feasible story of marriage, the only feasible dictate on what constitutes marriage. So many people have religions other than one based on the Bible. Their views should be respected as well, and gay marriage should absolutely be protected as it is marriage between individuals, not gender.

  • Paula

    I do believe DOMA is unconstitutional. I am a heterosexual woman. I do not believe being gay is against God. My God is an unconditionally loving God. Perhaps folks should understand ‘unconditional’! The bible was written by men these thousands of years ago and was written to suit “their” needs at the time. No, I do NOT believe every word in it is God’s law. I have never in my entire life felt that way. I never will. I know God and I know me. Thank you!

  • Jo Nammour

    Hello Neale,

    i would like to know what YOU think about this.. I really value ur opinion especially on subjects of tolerance such as gay marriage.

    thank you

  • Tass Schwab

    The fact that Human rights are being questioned at all is the sorrow here. I am Gay, I am human no less than any heterosexual person. I am a Spirit in this current Divine expression of All That Is…I deserve the same rights… Any discrimination of any sorts should be eradicated by any constitution. This is a civil right like any other issue. The thought that Gays should not have rights same as any other is as medieval as womens right to vote ages ago. But even if its the law it will not change the discrimination that exists in narrow minded people who are not Awake… I am from South Africa where “corrective rape” to Lesbians,is seen to be the norm despite our constitutions Bill of Rights. The challenge here is are the Bigots that exist in every country on this planet… Good Luck America…Your leader is a fine man, something we seem to have lost since Mandela stepped down.

  • Michael Kearns

    I am a gay man in a committed relationship. At 41 years old, I have witnessed extraordinary change and advancement in the treatment of gay people by society at large, but there is far more to be done.

    Marriage is a civil issue, not a religious one. What we are talking about here is the roughly 1,000 federal benefits that accrue to married couples. DOMA ensures that those benefits are off-limits to gay couples. Gay service members are unable to secure for their partners the same supports that straight spouses receive when someone goes off to war. Elderly gay men and women are forced out of their homes after their partner dies because they cannot transfer property without paying prohibitive taxes. These are not religious issues; they are matters of civil treatment and right now, that treatment is unequal.

    I love my country. I have been blessed to serve as a federal emplyee at one point, and I am committed to seeing our nation live up to the laudable ideals framed in the Constitution. Equality under the law and the right to pursue happiness are included among those ideals.

    I also love my partner. I shudder to think of being unable to visit him in the hospital. I fear being forced out o our home if he dies. I am angry that the partnership between my sister and her husband is seen as more worthy of legal recognition than my own.

    History will stand on the side of acceptance. People will eventually come to realize that stable unions between loving people is what matters; gender is less important. I only hope that day will come soon.

    My relationship… no, my marriage is of no threat to anyone. I support anyone who is willing to commit to another human being. That stability and love has seen me through hard times already. I can only hope that my goveernmnet and the legal system will come to see our commitment as what it is: a marriage that strengthens the community around us.

  • Bommel

    Here in the Netherlands (a.k.a. Holland) we are far beyond that discussion. If gays want to marry.. please do. If bi’s want to marry… by all means. If heteroes want to marry… no big deal. But marriage between different religions is still an issue in many cases. Is that different?

  • Kimberly S.

    Native American cultures held in high regard two-spirit people, who were our current definition of homosexual. People who showed characteristics of being male and female were two-spirit and frequently became medicine persons or were thought to have special abilities. I know that people can live in either a female or a male body throughout their various incarnations and I believe the evolution is towards a more androgynous form where there is an equal balance of male and female energy in one physical body. That being said, yes obviously all people deserve the same rights and to discriminate against one is likely to judge yourself because you probably have lived one life or are living one on an alternate reality as a homosexual. Religion is the reason people have come to think homosexuals are to not be respected and treated equally, and the time has come for people to let go of their indoctrinations and prejudices and just let love flow for all people, all beings – plants and animals, and the earth! We are one creation.

  • b. Lilley

    I agree. Marriage is a state institution, and a religious institution. If they attain a state marriage certificate, they are married, and under the law should be treated like any other married couple. The religious beliefs on Marriage should play no part in government policy, although it is creeping in every part of political functions. I fully expect the left wing religious to run our country if we allow it. I know they would like to. Think about other countries run by religious groups. Scarey!! Most laws originated from church law. It’s time to turn it around.

  • Pamela

    There comes a point as a country we have to do something different. We have to start loving and accepting each other regardless of our differences.

    Everyone should be treated equally. Nobody should be discriminated against for any reason.

    Our originating beliefs about God has to change. There are so many people who today believe that God is vengeful and judgmental. There are so many people still believe that is okay to commit all harm towards people in the Name of God. People truly need to start asking themselves ” What would love do” “How would love respond”. We are always going to have problems but accepting each other as we are would make a great start.

    When it comes to roles of men and women I don’t believe in that. I believe that we are who we are. There is no need to question or define it. It shouldn’t matter.

  • Mick Murphy

    That shouldn’t even be a question. Gay people are still people, still a human being…why are gay people fighting for their rights? this is crazy….years ago black people had no rights, and that is crazy….people are people, we are ALL human….everyone needs to have the same rights. end of story.

  • Kandis Jorstad

    As a Gay Woman who is in a committed relationship with my Life Partner, yes I believe a marriage or at least a partnership Unity should be legalized whereas we can be offered the same benefits as heterosexuals. Lets face it, the Bible condemns Adultery as well, but how many heterosexual marriages end because of infidelity…I believe that God IS Love and doesn’t want us to Hate – Also, all these religious people who judge and condemn . Who gave them that power? GOD is the only one who can judge and condemn so Please leave it to him. Romans 8:1 states that anyone who gives himself to Jesus will not be condemned. Seems a lot of people skip right over that.

  • kristina2

    from another angle; when so many traditional marriages fall apart or does not work and marriage beeing questioned as outdated, it is very surprising that the gay population gave such a strong new push to preserving it.

  • St. Vixen

    I am an American woman. Proud. Capable. Honest. Loving.

    Before I served my country as a American soldier, I broke through illegal barriers to work as a union carpenter building homes, roads and commercial structures. Some people look at my dark skin and read my last name and think I am an “illegal” immigrant and treat me with disdain… until I speak. And I do speak perfect English. Why is that? Because my family has fought for the privilege of American citizenship rights for over 150 years, not just for themselves but for everyone who wanted them.

    I am proud to exercise my rights. I vote. I pay taxes. I participate in my community and have traveled the world. I have my own money, my own home, my own mistakes and successes.

    I am almost as free as you.

    Up until recently, I could not stand in uniform and express my pride and joy of celebrating years with the same beautiful woman. I could not hold her hand or kiss her lips goodbye for fear of losing my rank and career and retirement. I could not easily transfer the remains of my estate when I battled stage 4 cancer like you can.

    The right to marry isn’t about whether you or the government recognizes my sexual preference, love and commitment. It’s about my equal entitlements to the same rights you have as a result of your legal contract between you and your spouse and the government.

    Frankly, I rest easy knowing my relationship with God is true and honest and as unconditionally loving as what my wife and I have. You are not necessarily invited to comment or judge the worthiness of my commitments. But don’t think that by denying me the same equal protection under the law that you are defending your marriage from an attack. If you really wanted to defend your marriage, you’d abolish divorce. See where that would get you.

  • Melanie Henry

    Yes Gay married couples should have the same rights under the law as Heterosexual married couples, a marriage is a marriage no matter what the gender.

  • Inger Lise

    Well, dear fellow-travellers in the earth, now am of to ask a question which in all likelihood to be crucified about … Who says it is “neccessary” of to have sexual partners at all, either it is heterosexual, lesbians or gays…or whatever !
    The animals have sex as well but the shrimps.

    According to one of the readings by E.C.(okay, I`ll know of bringing up Edgar Cayce once again), of it is us who have created “the whole system” in the first place.

    It is also very popular nowadays of to have made up a story in of Jesus of to have been married(no, not “married” but Mary as ” a mistress”) with Mary Magdalene, and of they to have had “The Holy Grail”, not as “the gold-cup,” but a child. And the “blood-line” still excisting somewhere.

    It is no limitation to the creation if you asks me.

    AND Edgar Cayce have as “a main-rule” in all of him did….of it is “no other way” than “through” Jesus Christ…..Meaning of us to “become like him,” and as far as of to have studied almost “all there is” about Jesus….of him never, ever, became “married.”

    Then we are back to the old testament: Become manyfold and rule all living creatures, and all else in the earth…..OH,too bad of not to be able in of to make the funny faces of the icons on the page thou !

  • Natasa

    We are speaking about human beings. It is inappropriate to categorize them further in some subspecies. What is the difference between a homosexual and heterosexual being? What real reason authorizes that one being has more/or different rights than the other one? It is the question of free decision, free choice, it does not do anyone a disservice. Historically , human homosexuality has always existed in three cultures of three continents: the North American natives, the tribes in New Guinea and among the inhabitants of Arctic Siberia.Homosexual relations can also be observed in animals. That has been observed and proved by the scientists ( eg. Bagemihl, Biological Exuberance – Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity). It is high time to accept and respect each other with no reservations! Same rights!!!

  • Kristi Curry

    Should same sex couples pay the same taxes as heterosexual couples? Obey the same laws? How can we expect all citizens to be contributing members of society while denying equal rights to some?

  • Jane S. Fields

    I agree that gay couples have the same rights as heterosexual couples because God does not discriminate & we should think like God & act like God because God is in all of us!

  • Natasa

    I am sorry – want to add that I consider the existence of homosexuality natural and any conviction – unnatural

  • Jane S. Fields

    I agree that gay couples should not be discriminated and should have the same rights as heterosexual couples. God does not discriminate & neither should we because God is in all of us!

  • Manuela

    Here in germany are the same discussions about that …the christ parts like csu and cdu comment that this is unnormal .. they dont want it , but the main gericht (sorry) said , that this mean is not like that what stays in our men *gesetz* … its diskriminierend ….. but they say that homosexuell people are not perfect .. god has make a mistake by making them …. I say god only wants that love is the main ….

  • Gail

    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    Now stop being hypocrites “justice for all” means if Gays and Lesbians what to get married let them.

    The bible has so much issues about people going against godly ways have we in society made that much change in modern times.. the answer is no. It would appear that not a single soul in this planet follows the scriptures to be better humans. This in mind as it does not say about gays and lesbians marrying we therefore can set aside this as an argument.

    Now as a daughter of God. I say enjoy, be happy and share the love. Stop being hateful, just because those who are trying to prevent it are miserable in their own lives. I call upon God to those who prevent the union of loving people to have horns grow on their face until they repent for their evil inclinations.

    Lets wait and see!!!

  • Jim Zychowski

    I absolutely agree. If a higher principle or truth is: “what is in one is in the whole and what is in the whole is in one” then the totality of human sexuality is in all of us. If that is true then how can it be justified for one segment of the ‘whole’ to discriminate against another or put another way, for one part of God to discriminate against another.

    Although I am not a biblical scholar I do not believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. In my view the Bible sees human sexuality primarily from a ‘tribal standpoint’ and from that standpoint procreation is the primary purpose of human sexuality, hence any sexual activity that is not procreative as an “abomination”. But, although procreation is an important part of human sexuality it is by no means the only or even possibly the most important part. Human sexuality is a much more complex area of the human condition than that.

    And as for expressions of love–love is love, period.

  • Jeff Batt

    All people should be granted equal rights, regardless of sexual orientation. If straight people can vote on whether gays can marry, why can’t gay people vote on whether straights can marry. Marriage is a legally defined union. There is no threat to marriage for gays to marry, as they are not destroying the sanctity of marriage. Straight people are doing just fine at that. Jesus does not mention discrimination towards gays. It’s time that ALL people are treated as equal souls, deserving of love, respect and their divinity recognized. God does not make mistakes, people do. Someday, in the near future, all this discrimination will be history, and the wrongful actions carried out against certain members of a civilized society will be made right. Gay and transgendered people are not a sub-class of humanity. They are a deserving part of humanity, as are all members of humanity. Religion should not be a part of government, at all. Government is of the people, by the people and for the people, and that includes ALL people in an equal and unbiased manner.

  • Jo Nammour

    this is mostly a religious issue than it is a social one.. the bottom line for religious people is “we don’t like gays and we don’t want to encourage them.”
    there are also a lot of scriptures in the Bible that back up this concept.
    However, Christians should remember that Jesus was murdered because of the lack of Tolerance at the time..

  • Sandra

    If I, as a non US resident, assume that the Constitution states all people are equal under God then surely all people are equal!
    Just as under 150 years ago there was war against slavery and the belief(at least in the West) that no human is property, we surely have evolved and matured enough to accept certain kinds of adult sexual orientation.
    Being gay or straight shouldn’t carry onerous tagsof acceptability, and for the collective human and health good monogamy should be actively promoted.
    Marriage for the gay and lesbian community should be legal and they should receive all the legal rights and protection that the straight community already enjoys
    I do not believe that you can force religious institutions to marry gay and lesbian couple:they also have a right to their beliefs and in reality some will whilst others wont!
    Marriage and fidelity should still be promoted, it is for the common good! It allows for healthy self esteem and self worth and will assist halting the advance of sexual diseases that we have seen
    A basic human need is love and the affirmation of love is precious for all

  • Linda

    DOMA is unconstitutional. I support the Obama’s Administrations efforts to have the Supreme Court declare DOMA unconstitutional.

    I believe that the Bible was written by men. I do believe the recording of the Bible started out as something worthy, but I believe it to be similar to the game “Conversation”. You whisper something in someone’s ear, in turn they whisper it in some one else’s ear and so on and so on…we all know how that ends, the original story is much different than the story repeated at the end, an so goes the Bible.

    I believe that God is Love, and Love is God. God is not a punishing God. God teaches love, but we are not always listening to the love God is trying to teach us. I believe that every human being should have the same rights. Same sex married couples should have the same rights as heterosexual married couples.

    I consider myself to be a “Recovering Catholic”. Yes, recovering from all of the falsehoods, fear, and discrimination that the Catholic Church teaches. From the time I was a child I questioned the teachings. My best friend was a protestant and things were so different for her. She could eat meat of Fridays, she did not have to go to confession every week and if she died she could go right to heaven, without a review of Mortal or Venial sins. I wondered why. Why would God have one set of rules for her, but a different set for me? As an adult I know the answer, God did not impose these rules on me and not on her, Man did. Just like some men now oppose legal unions of the same sex, it is MANS opposition, not God’s. I would like to believe that God things of us, ultimately, as adrogenous beings, we just haven’t gotten there yet!

  • Diana

    I am amazed at the religious right who stand on this issue and yet have committed adultery and become divorced. Those who raise their voices against same-sex marriage are the same people who have made a mockery of the foundation of Marriage. Marriage, under the law, allows for certain rights such as tax advantages, access to benefits, and the legal right to visit my spouse in the hospital as next of kin, to name just a few. This is not a spiritual or religious issue, but rather a legal issue, and as such, denial of this basic right of contractual partnership is unconstitutional.

  • Tonya Butler

    I do agree with the Obama Administration’s actions. I stand behind these actions 100 percent. It does not matter whether or not ‘I’ am gay. What does matter is that we begin to see within our laws and root out that which presents inequality. These laws should, can and will be changed.

    Gay marriage equality is not a threat to our society, but regarding and treating a couple who happens to be gay, less than a citizen of our community, our neighborhood, our country, by denying them equal marriage rights is blasphemous against our true selves, our higher selves and at best we are hypocrites that have not outgrown the dogmatic attitudes and arrested development of a lacking vision, that spiritually we’ve not yet matured beyond that place which condemns and judges in ignorance.

    I do sincerely believe that what I have written above in the previous paragraph refers to fewer and fewer individuals, communities, and our country as a whole as we continue to move forward. There is a sense that we are waking up and noticing that this is not an attitude that we should condone and or support within ourselves let alone within our constitution.

  • Jennifer Daughtry

    Of Course Same Sex couples should be allowed to get married. We’ve been given free will and free love. GOD and Mother Universe have no say so in whom we love, just as long as we love. If GOD has no judgement on who we love and marry, why should another human being. We want to be able to love who we want to just like ANYBODY else. It’s not our place to control and make those kinds of decisions for another person. People are going to love and be loved weather they can marry or not. What’s the difference?? Leave people alone and let there be LOVE!! Does anyone know what that is anymore, LOVE??

  • Inger Lise

    Natasha ? The animals will be a part of our human nature. The animals are no “subspecies.” We (as human species) are “a part of the earth.”
    The animals have “group-souls.”
    We do have “the animal nature,” as all life is One.
    We have made the division into tribes and nations. The many indian tribes(who have had differently names) called themselves “as nations” as well.

    What I have felt as of to b e “funny” will be of not two of us “thinking alike.” It is the famous duality.
    But one thing of us to have in common are the basic principle of all Life, and it is Love.
    I have absolutely no doubt about it.
    And that`s what will be meant when it is told:” It is no other way than through Jesus Christ.” It is no other way than through unconditional/impersonal(not a specific love). The Love which is Gods, who/-or whom, to have no favourites but encompassing all and everything, and it is concerning the whole Globe, because the Earth is but an atom in the Universe.

  • Debbie Sias

    Everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs, of this we can agree. Can we also agree that everything in and of this world is a gift from God? If, as the bible states, we are created in God’s own image, than that would mean ALL of us, not just the ones who fit into a certain mold. ALL of us are from God. ALL of us are created by God. That would mean that even gay people are created in the image and likeness of God. Everyone is put on this Earth to learn and remember our likeness to God. It is my belief that anyone who is different from ourselves is placed in our lives so that we may LEARN acceptance and tolerance of all things. Only when we can do that will there be peace-true peace-in our souls.

    I was born Catholic, then baptized Mormon, went to a Baptist church for a few years and then found Buddhism. What I finally came away with in all of this is that they are ALL right. There are many ways to the top of the mountain. We will ALL get there one day; some of us take the long road and some just climb straight to the top. It doesn’t matter the path taken. Tolerance is the straight path, or at least a lot straighter than the intolerance path. Why do we feel like OUR way is the only way. In fact, it is just ANOTHER way.

    Gays are not monsters created from some fictitious devil like the bible implies. And Hell is not a place that the gays will go to because they are ‘different’. MY God is a loving God of ALL souls. He has given us the gift of Free-Will so that we may freely go about remembering ourselves. It isn’t free-will IF we are told what we can and cannot do. What is free about that? The God of my understanding does not pass judgement on anyone. What is the point in giving us free-will if we are to be judged on it. Again, what is free about that?

  • Laura Galvin

    We are ALL one and should be ALL treated the Same.How can there be an argument of any kind!?

  • debbieh

    Without a doubt, we are should all be equal under the law. This argument is another one that simply continues our Separateness rather than our Sameness. Too much time and energy is spent on fighting about our differences rather than working together. When we can live together as equals, we won’t keep beating these same things around and we will progress. As you might suppose, my spiritual path does not feel any one “Bible” should take precedent over any other. Believe as you wish, simply allow others to do the same.

  • Inger Lise

    Keep an open mind and a good humour among the turmoil !

    Nighty- nigh from “over here” and sweet dreams.
    I love all of you.
    btw: What would I have done without you ?

  • Robert van LIeshout-Hendrix

    I am gay and have been married for 11 years now. Our country, the Netherlands was the first in the world to pass a law under which marriage was a civil right to both heterosexual as well as gay couples.
    It is a great advantage that we have seperation of law and religion. Under this law gay married couples have protection, benefits as well as obligations, like an other couple.
    Spiritually people have debated many issues, using lots or arguments. Personally I think that if God did not want gays to exist he or she would have been perfectly capable of preventing the existance of gay people.
    I do not understand how people feel threatened by gay people. Same as I did not understand people feeling threatened by coloured people, elderly people, women, handicapped people for instance.
    I cannot remember being on my knees, praying to God to please make me gay. But it has enriched my life in various ways. Which does not mean it has been easy all the way. The same goes for many people who aren´t gay. It is the diversity, that helps up understand that underneath what we see with our eyes there is a human being, that wants love, acceptance and being valued. If we want to achieve that, the best way is to spread it ourselves. And it will come to us in many different ways. With it comes the understanding we are not that different at all. Just souls who want to feel welcome…
    I wish the Supreme Court of the US wisdom, patience and courage and I wish the gay people of the US that they can obtain the same position as anybody in the Land of the Brave and the Free.
    As a Dutch married gay I want to remind you, that part of our people moved over there and helped build what you are today.

  • Inger Lise

    Hurrah for the the Netherlands(the Dutch`s), but is it not The Amish people who also came from the Netherlands and settled in the U.S.?
    Oh, okay, I`m supposed of to go to bed by now.
    btw: I have many dear friends from Holland, we are the same.

  • Roni Lipstein

    This is a link [safe and secure] to an article I wrote [for our blog, “Souls Talking Brain”] a few years ago, relating to this very subject.

    Blissings YOU enJOY. <3

    http://sanctuairesoulssanctuary.com/souls-talking-brain/2009/pride-week-in-toronto/

  • Rob

    If the laws of God are higher than the laws of man, let God be the judge of a person when he dies, for “God’s law” also says “judge not lest ye be judged yourself”, “let ye who is without sin caste the first stone” and “Love thy neighbor”. I don’t think it says “only love your neighbor if he is Christian and straight”. Also, Leviticus is a book in the Old Testament which also says a lot of things that we don’t take to heart anymore such as not associating with a woman while she is menstruating. Jesus, in the Bible, never mentions homosexuality even once! You can’t just pick and choose which rules you are going to follow and which ones you aren’t. You have to be consistent or you just look like a bigot. Also, I believe that if your church disagrees with gay marriage, that is their right and prerogative, but keep in in your church. If you want to deny gay people getting married in your church, that is fine, but the government is not a church or a religion. Marriage in the eyes of God is a totally different thing than being married in the eyes of the state. The government is run by the people and for the people (supposedly)- which includes gay people. Does granting these rights to gay people hurt anybody? Absolutely not! I’ve certainly never seen any evidence of it anyway. The fact is, what other people do in their bedrooms is their business and nobody else’s. A lot of people say its a matter of “family values”, but there is no unbiased study ever done that suggests that gay people can’t raise good families. Not one! Furthermore, what specifically are these “family values” you speak of? I’ve never heard of a definitive source of “family values” that is strictly adhered to by EVERYONE! We aren’t all Christians in this country. Hell, I’m an atheist for crying out loud. Our society was designed to be a tolerant one that is supposed to expand and rely on DIVERSITY. That’s why we have freedom of religion in our Bill of Rights to begin with. Every family is different, and if there is a God, I doubt He would be hateful or vengeful to a loving family- whatever the sexual orientation of the parents. People really need to stop using religion to justify hate, especially when their religion doesn’t even preach that. Under the law, we are all equal. Believe whatever you want to about God, but keep our government an objective institution. That’s how we keep it fair, and that is just another way to LOVE your neighbor. It is not the government’s job to adhere to religious doctrines. It is the government’s job to adhere to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In my mind, I have a real hard time seeing why this is even an issue in the first place. People have a right to be who they are whether you agree with it or not. That’s what this country was founded on. Thank you.

  • Luke

    It’s just ridiculous, that in this day and age we still discriminate against people that don’t behave as to the percieved norm.
    God Loves all of us, Is all of us, and the bible thumpers are just Judgemental Hypocrites, that can’t see the forest for the trees!

  • Chris

    Perhaps I am waving my grumpy stick here. I must confess as to having “issues” in this area, but i think I’m making a fair point. I wanted to raise a point about the use of language surrounding homosexuality. I noticed people using the phrase(without any intent to offend) “straight” in referring to heterosexuals. When I think about this, it seems to me that the obvious implication is that any non heterosexual expression is therefore “bent”. I object to this because homosexuality is implicitly defined in heterosexual terms as an unnatural other, something skewed or diverting from the “natural order”. We all need to become more aware of how our use of language shapes our thoughts and perceptions of reality.

  • Heather

    It strikes me that many people refer to “God” as something / someone seperate to themselves. Someone with an opinion… to determine whether something is acceptable or not acceptable…something more important than ourselves…someone with whom we need to have a relationship with in order to realise who we really are.

    In my life I have done many things, said many things, believed many things, acted in many ways and my reasons would change along with my behaviours as the years passed by. I have been the druggie and the drug dealer, I have been the patient and the healer, I’ve been the client and the therapist, I have been the student and the teacher, I have been the child and the adult, the sick and the healthy, the hurt and the loved… with all of these has come experience and understanding that would have been impossible for me to otherwise have. Why would I not then want to experience more of everything? To gain experience and understanding of things I cannot yet comprehend?

    Isn’t it a joy then, that between us all, we get to experience all aspects of life, all beliefs, all understandings, all actions, all physical and emotional states of being? So when someone is doing something we can’t understand from our limited viewpoint, we can give ourselves permission to delight in their experience in the same way that we delight in our own because without them and their beliefs, our own experience would cease to be and could not exist. How can there be day without night? Hot without cold, confidence without fear, gay without straight, love without hate?

    Aren’t we really “living” through these experiences? It is only by doing that we are understanding, learning and growing.

    I think of ourselves as being like a big organism, each of us a cell making up the whole, in the same ways that our bodies are made up of lots of cells each doing their own part in their own local groups.

    When I think of life in this way I find it impossible to seperate “us” from “god” because we are life experiencing life and if we have a relationship with “god” then they must also be experiencing life through life and so surely “god” is just the word that we have atttributed to the mass of cells that I was talking about in the last paragraph?

    How can god know anything at all if he hasnt first experienced it? How can god even exist without being in the innocene of a new born, the anger of a violent man pushed to the edge, the depression of a teenager, the sexual act of men and women everywhere in any combination?

    In my opinioin and in my experience god isn’t seperate to us, we aren’t his children made in his image learning to be like him ‘trying’ to get it right. We ARE god and god is us. We are Love and Love is us. We are Energy and Energy is us. God cannot live without us and we cannot live without god. How could I live without myself?

    In this way I believe that every expression of love in regards to the debate about hetrosexual/homosexual is God expressing itself. Seeking the joy in every experience. How can there be possibly right or wrong? This makes no sense to me. It just simply IS. Another wonderful experience that we are so priviledged to participate in if we so choose.

    When you strip away fear and judgement all that is left is Love. and Love can’t be divided. We are Love. You and I. We are God.

  • Terri

    In my opinion, gay marrieds should definitely have the same rights as others. Just because they are the same sex should not make any difference.

  • Kristen

    Sorry I havn’t read many of these latest posts, crazy busy. NZ has yesterday passed a law legalizing gay marriage, with the clause that church ministers have the right to not carry out these marriage ceremonies if they choose not to, without being accused of discrimination. I still have a problem with the word.

    Neale – it astounds me how when you being up a topic relating to PEOPLE, not new age waffle (cant help myself), how many people have stories to tell, opinions and new names appear! I’ts called conversation, and human. Our lives are about ourselves, other people, animal life and the planet. Much more interesting.

    Mewabe – I could not answer your rhetorical/scarcastic question properly earlier as I need disclosure consent and wanted to speak with your guide with the job God present. You need to contact your warrior (I think Canadian Indian) guide, and if you can’t have 2 way conversations allow him eye blinks or hand twitches for yes or no. I seriously thought you knew the answer and were baiting me to disclose information. I’ve confirmed you really don’t know the answer to where my views come from! You know I am a kabbalist and you have mentioned kabbalah, so since your knowledge of other matters appears to be indepth I assumed you know it well. (no insults).

    My information and opinions are from Daath, the abyss of intellectual incl hidden knowledge. Between the highest trinity and the middle. This is governed by the Job God (which is what I had to confirm re disclosure – he took me on as a protege 5yrs ago and I am only aware of Di Vinci and Nostradamus mentioning him here). The information in the abyss, accessible via intuition, is a combination of The Crown/Source/Creator of above our own will, how things are and what is and highest principles etc. With Chokmah/Jehovah God of law, wisdom, highest potential, cosmic law etc. With Binah/Great Mother of female principles,understanding etc. For any highest opinions/laws/rules ie THE WAY IT IS, these three forces/individuals combine and make the rulings that govern everything. Anything I have stated is the information in there. Ie females and males are made different, the genitals are a perfect fit, we are compatible etc and since Jehovah God clearly does not support gay sexual interactions, he would never allow His biblical term marriage to be used. But no-one can stop love, which God understands.

    At your stage you should know that like Tarot, dream interpretation personas etc Kabbalah and the Tree of Life in any different religion or form becomes how you are at a certain stage. Those stuck in the mass mind of humanity are part of the mass mind. In Tiphareth you become a perfectionist, quite intolerant of dumb choices, seek and desire beauty in all etc. In Geburah you want lessons, become a warrior, ditch what isn’t important etc. In CWG terminology I am Daath, I am Binah, Jehovah God and The Source combined. Get it??????

  • Kristen

    Sorry Neale, not the place or the thread. I know. Again, thanks.

  • mewabe

    Thanks Kristen, I do know a little about the Kabbalah, there is a lot of ancient knowledge there, but systems are not my thing. I much prefer to access knowledge or rather knowing first hand and through intuition, rather than through an established esoteric system, complete with steps, degrees and graduation (and there are many).

    I have rejected systems all my life, from the higher forms of yoga such as Kriya yoga meant to awaken the kundalini to any form of meditation, esoteric schools and anything that is a defined path or discipline defined by others.

    I follow my own path, my own Spirit, within which I know all knowledge from the past and the future already resides, all I need is to bring it to consciousness, to make it fully conscious and manifest in the here and now, in this lifetime, as much as possible given some limitations in this plane of existence.

    The well of ALL knowledge is within each of us.

    This is also why I would never follow a teacher of any kind. What other people have to say is interesting and can resonate occasionally, but ultimately there are always differences. And thank God for it, life would be extremely dull if we were all clones.

    In my opinion a lot of the new age teaching is little more than feel good stuff, wishful thinking, and rather childish. It’s a breath of fresh air for those whose hearts and minds were buried in fear, guilt and shame by old patriarchal religions from the middle east, but it is without real roots.

    Case in point, foolish people died in a sweat lodge in Arizona under the foolish, completely ignorant guidance of James Arthur Ray, a “Secret” law of attraction self-help guru who knows very little about real spirituality, and obviously nothing about Native American spirituality and practices.

    People are lost, and desperate, particularly in America, a rootless nation. They seek something to fill their inner void, and fall prey to the first snake oil salesman who comes along. False prophets abound here in the “metaphysical movement”.

    Even some Native Americans want a piece of the action…they are called “plastic medicine men” (and women), because they take visa and master card.
    I have known some…they gravitate around Hollywood.

    I do have a path, but could not describe it to you…it is very ancient as well, perhaps as old as humanity, and it is within me, not in any book, not in the mind or words of any “teacher”, past or present.

    You are right about the Northern Canadian Indian thing, so I do believe that you are psychically gifted, congratulations! I am in touch with my own guides and many (many!) relations on the other side…directly and through dreams. But I am in charge of my own life, and make my own decisions regardless, along with bearing responsibility.

    I would tend to believe that rather than following the rules dictated by an ancient God, every individual must be allowed to choose his or her own path without any hindrance, even if it ultimately means making a mistake, as long as no one else gets hurt. Otherwise there is no growth.

    All mistakes are extremely important, until we are ready not to make them any longer, until we can grow without them. Each person must be allowed to grow at his or her own pace according to his or her own nature, which is UNIQUE (what is the rush anyway, we will all get there).

    So whatever consenting adults choose to do in the bedroom, or to eat or drink or smoke, or any other victimless activity, or whom they want to marry, is, truly, none of my business, and should not provoke hatred or prejudices on the part of others.

    As far as marriage, I do not believe in it to start with, I do not think people need to sign a contract to be committed and faithful to each other. I actually think that wanting such a contract reveals distrust.

    In business, a handshake between two honorable people is said to be enough, ideally. But a verbal promise between two people who are in love is not enough? What is wrong with this picture?

    However I do not think anyone should be discriminated against, for any reason.

    If the government and the church were not in the marriage business, the government doing social engineering by giving advantages to married people while punishing non-married couples and singles, this would not be an issue now, would it?

  • Inger Lise

    Mewabe and Kristen….I`ll say no more than THANK YOU BOTH.
    It is a pleasure in of to be listening to you. I`m like “the Sponge”….Gosh ! I have never thought of it before; it became as “The New Insight.”

  • mewabe

    Thank you Inger…yes, I like being a sponge in nature…absorbing cosmic energies, which are all around us in the living world of nature (as opposed to the dead world of civilization, filled with old, very stagnant and very unhealthy energies and vibrations).

    It takes time, patience…being still like a tree, or a rock, while inwardly flowing like a river, flexible and open, seeking calm, tranquility, and being present, awake, here. Letting the sun, the wind, the rain wash our mind and heart, letting the earth re-balance our physical and mental energies, letting spiritual knowledge come gently through our skin, our breath, and accumulate in our cells, until it becomes spiritual power, a kind of “living word”, a process that integrates heart, mind, body and spirit, and the self with the cosmos, so that a person is eventually reunited with the center (the One source) not just in thoughts or feelings but in terms of ENERGY.

    When you join heart, mind, body and spirit you form a cross, the 4 directions…if you trace a circle around the cross, you have a symbol for the unity and infinity of the universe, of all life, without beginning nor end…if you make the cross horizontal and add 2 more directions, one above and one below, for the upper world and the lower world or heaven and earth, you now form a vertical cross as well, that meets at the same center as the horizontal cross, and you have a sphere, with 6 directions. The center is the 7th direction, the Source of All That is, the divine, the One center that is in all things, and in which all things have their being (the All-divine life-is in all-the universe, and all-the universe-is in the All-the divine).

    Native Americans (as well as ancient Tibetans before Buddhism) pray to the 6 directions (east north west south, earth and sky), and by doing so symbolically center themselves in the 7th direction, the divine center.

    This is part of the Native American way of understanding the universe, which implies union and integration leading to the realization of oneness with all life without exceptions.

    Only in an understanding of oneness can total peace be found, as in oneness there are no conflicts, and only in a knowledge of oneness can the divine be known, for the very nature and essence of the divine is One.

    This is why the Native American pipe was called a “peace” pipe, nothing to do with war and peace but with the spiritual peace that comes with spiritual understanding and spiritual being.

    Again this One divine center is in all things, and all things are in it. But spirituality is not merely a mental process, it is not just about ideas, as spiritual teachers in the west seem to believe. it is an ENERGY process. The Yogis know it, Native Americans know it.

    Being is energy, and energy is knowledge. The universe, the cosmos, and the earth itself are bursting with spiritual energy-knowledge, if only we take the time to see, to hear, to feel and to know.

    Listen to the earth…the divine gently whispers through each of its life forms…even through a stone, and above all through the earth UNITY and the oneness of the universe, for oneness is the divine nature.

  • mewabe

    Sorry, I can’t help getting off topic…there is only so much that can be said about the obvious, such as, no, no discrimination (including no discrimination towards non married couples and singles, who, once again, should have the same advantages and rights as married couples)!

  • Ionic Breeze

    I agree, Mewabe. Stones have energy. I just recently bought a few. wow! They are grand, and I can sure feel them :) Kyanite, nummite, tourmaline, and so many I can’t count. ah they can be expensive though. The kyanite is super really grand. Anyhoo, stones carry love, and love is energy. Love is free energy. Love, free love energy, moves and grooves freely through all things, including us.

    Now, where were we? Oh yea. We are discussing whether gays have the freedom to marry each other. Hmmm Isn’t life funny. We are so civilized aren’t we. hmmm Love is free, but gays are not. I get to say who everyone else sleeps with if I am a surly politician believing everything I think and thinking everything I believe doesn’t need to be evaluated or reevaluated. I have to protect DOMA or lose my political vote, if I am a politician. Come on, life, please. Say it isn’t so. Say I could care less who someone sleeps with as long as noone’s getting hurt. I know freedom doesn’t stop and ponder. Love doesn’t stop to think before it reaches out in embrace. Freedom acts freely, like love, true love. Freedom is true love. We are true love, when we are real love. Real love just is. Who says where real love moves and grooves freely? I don’t. If you feel it, go for it. I could care less if you sleep with a kumquat. Really, I don’t care. By the way, I agree with Mewabe. I don’t think anyone should be receiving kickbacks simply because they are married. Why should married people get more tax refunds? It’s ridiculous. It’s archaic. Speaking of archaicism. Words are alive. Language is alive. Marriage is alive. We are alive. All life is alive. Words are like marriage like us like language like freedom and they, too, are a living breathing thing. Words are not stagnant objects set in concrete. Only a mind can be fixed, unmovable, locked in archacism, locked forever in stone not, in concrete, refusing to movely, freely movely freely like the wind. Words, every linguist will tell you, change. They change like the wind, as people come together, grow apart, societies develop, cultures mingles, life rises and falls, like the breath that breath that breathes us, like rise and fall of life itself. Marriage stems from Mary. That word meant a holy sacred union to God, but there are many other versions of the word. Check it out in the OED. Why would we insist on only one meaning of a word, simply because we are listening to a bible that is so diverse? The bible is diverse, many people, many words, many years apart the books were told years apart. They diverge. They donb’t merge. I’m glad I don’t die my firstborn or sacrifice some animal everytime I pray to God. A union, a holy union, can be between a male, a female, a male, a male, a female, a female, and everything in between. Have an orgy. Heck we are having one anyway if we believe in one love. There are things called seeds. Some seeds sprang forth and split into two parts, a masculine and a feminine. Others divided as a masculine and a masculine or a feminine and a feminine. they are free to express love however they feel love. who am I to tell someone you can’t express love. Who am I to say your heart isn’t real? I don’t tell anyone how to feel love. Love Is. Love is in the heart. Love is the heart. Why would we tell a person, “you’re heart is not valid”? Why would we tell anyone, “You get more taxes simply because you say your heart is there not here, where I think it should be”? We should really stop thinking in this society and start being. Who are we to say anything about another heart? Why not let all hearts be free, free to Be?

    Love to all,

    Ionic Breeze

  • Steve J

    If we are all one, then:
    1. Why do We need a government to tell us what to do and how to treat “others”?
    2. Why should we treat Two any differently than we treat One of us?
    3. My wife loves her pets. How should government treat that relationship? Why not some of preferential treatment door “Pet Lovers”?
    4. “Republicans” want to treat gays differently? Really?? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that those who fear for the future of “our country” see gays a threat to what they see as the foundation of “our” country, ie, “The Family”. They are probably wrong in that regard, but is there any doubt that procreation without support and guidance leads to failure, criminality and dependance?
    Just sayin’
    With lots of love and very high hopes for humanity, I am, Yours Truly
    Steve J

  • Laura Pringle

    OMG, Wow, what a great thread!! Been away for a week, and look what transpires! :)

    I’m so proud of our president, for supporting equal rights! :) YAY!

    However, the whole marriage thing IS kinda skewed, and I won’t contribute to it. (Been “divorced” 11 yrs, living with my current boyfriend for the last 10, we don’t need any government officiating/labels concerning our partnership, thank you!)

    I agree that the core issue of WHY married couples get breaks and perks should be addressed….

    Ionic Breeze is back, blowing through like a feathery waft of verbiage…;) great to see her, and everyone else’s participation!!!

    Awesome, entertaining, thought-provoking dialogue, EVERYONE… Thanks, ever-so-much!!! <3 :)

  • ionic breeze

    Hey Laura, Love :) Good to see you :) I agree. I don’t know why we get a perk, just cuz we’re married. People are people whether they have walked down an aisle or not :)

  • mewabe

    There are two ways for government to control people:

    Through coercion (unpopular) or through giving people advantages and perks (popular).

    Giving married people advantages over singles and unmarried couples has everything to do with control. Married couples are not so mobile, they are, in a sense, fixed in place. The thing that comes next is debt (buying a house and a mountain of stuff).

    You may have noticed that debt is also rewarded by the government. Having a population in debt in another form of control, again the people are immobilized, they are no going anywhere, they are easy to keep track of.

    As a matter of fact that are like cattle, fenced in and totally at the mercy of those whose intention is to exploit them, as workers (who desperately need their job) and as consumers (because consuming is about the only form of “happiness” or gratification they have left in their lives of quiet despair).

    Wanting to buy into this scenario is folly, in my opinion.

    I agree Laura, a free people should have no need of a government contract regarding their relationship status.

  • Vicente

    The spirit is here to experience. There is not good or bad, there is no black and white but there is a triad, and therefore there is heterosexual and gay and in between by-sexual which is the triad. We are here to experience. Religion have taken homosexuality to an extreme. God is everything, we see and we enjoy sex with opposite sex, but we can enjoy with the same sex or both. We are here for creations purpose only? Sorry, but I don’t’ think so! We are here to experience. You may be gay in this life, you may have no children, but have a job that does more to benefit the common good of humanity than someone who has a child. Many heterosexual do never have children. Are we going to condemn them? Maybe next life that soul task would be to be the bearer of many children. We have so many opportunities. Life is endless! For this and for and for and endless number of reasons, God bless human beings, heterosexual, gay, bisexual. God bless equal rights for everyone, regardless of colour, sex or any other form of natural expression. We should have never been engaged in an argument about gay or heterosexual rights, about wether heterosexual are more or less natural than gays of vice-verse. We are all human within a body, a mind and soul, and if in this life we are here to experience an alternative sexual preference to that of a majority. Then God bless that soul!, and God is also you! Start with your blessing!! When you understand this, then only you would have evolved!

  • shambhavi

    Yes of course I agree that we all should be treated equally and if it does not happen in America (most developed and modern country)how can it happen in other parts of the world.And on the spiritual level I believe love is more than sex(of course it includes sex) and we are more than just bodies,we are souls,we are a part of god and god does not has a gender.So if body is an illusion ,then gender is an illusion,we are souls(gender less)loving other souls.And if two souls are loving each other then it is a sacred thing right.

  • A RANDOM GUY

    NEALE WHY COULD YOU HAVE STRONG FEELINGS FOR SOMEONE WHILE THE OTHER HAVE A OPPOSITE EXPERIENCE. WHY IS THAT ?

  • Jon the mechanic

    The other day I was reading a quote from Abraham the entity that Esther Hicks channels and I like what he said “Every law that you have on your books today,whether it’s a religious or a secular law, has come about; because you’re trying to get somebody else to do something that will make your fiil better.”

    For centuries man has tried to make laws so he can feel better, and what better back up then to say that God is not happy with Gays. I believe that man has made God in his own image in a lot of things that he(man) does not like. As for myself who am I that I can pass judgment on someone else to tell them what there feelings toward someone else should be. Yes I like what Obama has said about the Gays. I think that all people should be free to live life to the fullest to leave everyone alone so that they can be happy also.

  • Christina Avigliano

    I feel that, who am I to judge someone for loving someone else, marrying that person and wanting to live out their lives together and file taxes together like everyone else. They are simply loving each other and it’s a whole lot better than hurting each other, and they should not be treated as less or not equal to what society calls a normal marriage. In my eyes it is a marriage of two people loving each other in a committed relationship and wanting to show that to the world. Whats the big deal?

  • Christina Avigliano

    What about divorcing someone and I can’t remember from the books CWG if it was addressed or not. I know divorce is viewed and not favorable which personally having been through a divorce I can say it wasn’t fun. Also what about souls mates? I personally feel that I have had many in, in many different ways. Like my blue Great Dane moose that past away, we were adjoined at the hip.