A Voice in the Wilderness
WHAT IT FEELS GOOD AND BAD
FOR ME TO BELIEVE

It feels good to me to believe in God. It feels good to me to believe that someone “has my back,” that someone is “there for me,” that someone is supporting me, empowering me, uplifting me, protecting me, and embracing me. It feels good to me to feel that I am not alone in this Universe and not without help in this life and not without a Home to which to return when my time here is over. It feels good to me to believe in a God who loves me unconditionally and empowers me unlimitedly and accepts me unreservedly. It feels good to me to believe in a God who gives me Free Will to express and experience myself in the way that feels most authentic to me and most loving to me and most wonderful to me. It feels good to me to believe in a Higher Power; that there exists in the Universe an Essential Essence, a Pure Energy, that I may use to impact in a positive way the expression and the experience of my life. It feels good for me to believe that there is no separation or difference between this Essential Essence and me, and that it is, in fact, that of which I am comprised.

It feels bad to me to believe in a God who is separate from me, who is made of something I am not, who is watching my every move, noticing my every mistake, judging my every choice, and holding me to account for my every misdeed. It feels especially bad to me to believe in a God who may be approached in only one way, accessed by only one path, found and rejoined by only one method — and who condemns and punishes with everlasting torture and unremitting anguish anyone who comes to God in another way, by another path, using another method — no matter how pure their love for God or how sincere their search for God or how deep their desire for God may be.

This does not mean that those who do believe in a God who is and does these things are “wrong” for doing so. My comments above are in no way meant to imply that my beliefs are in any way better or more accurate, more sensible or more reasonable than anyone else’s beliefs. I want to make it very clear that all beliefs about God (including the belief that there is no God) are honored by me (and, I hope, by everyone), and that no one is intended to be disrespected by my statement above. To disagree is not to disrespect, and to offer one point of view that diverges from another is not to scorn, but to invite greater understanding.

The only aspect of spiritual practice that I cannot personally condone is any attempt by a believer or organization of believers in a particular doctrine to forcibly impose on another that doctrine or dogma which the believer holds dear. I consider every individual’s spiritual experience and truth to be the most personal and sacred aspect of their life, and I do and will not support any attempt to compel or coerce by any means—emotional or physical—any person to embrace or adhere to a particular teaching, canon, or creed.
Our differences do not have to create divisions, our contrasts do not have to create conflicts, and the variations in our beliefs do not have to create violence in our lives.

There is another way. But we will not find that way by searching for it. We will only find it by creating it. Let us, therefore, go forth into our world in peace and in love, knowing that if there is a God, surely this is God’s desire—and that if there is not a Higher Power, there can be no better way to live in the absence of one.

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  • Jethro

    !!!!!!!Our differences do not have to create divisions, our contrasts do not have to create conflicts, and the variations in our beliefs do not have to create violence in our lives.”!!!!!!!
    “AMEN”
    While I have many thoughts to share, I have little time this wonderful morning. This Quote I have copied and pasted should be the first thing we teach our children. It should be the theme of every school. We should repeat this after every prayer. While many important statements have been made and will be made, this is the most important message I have read today. I will continue to try and perfect this thought, everything else will fall into place and has this far, just by practicing the removal of prejudice and acceptance for all life.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    “There is another way. But we will not find that way by searching for it. We will only find it by creating it.”

    While this is not technically correct in the sense that everything is already created, it is accurate in how we experience life.

    To create a better life for ourselves & the collective world, we have to reprogram so much of our default negative, damaging thinking. To create & practice thinking that does not allow negative stuff to habituate & continually replicate itself in unwanted experiences. This is of course our self talk. The most intimate repetitive influential part of of our creation experience that we can control.

    Not in a rigid militant way, but in a mindful, loving, even fun way to set the tone of our life & those we influence as a result. Guiding our thoughts to more desirable ones.

    Yet even someone like myself who thinks & moves in this world in a positive manner a majority of the time, it surprises me at times, the negativity that still wants to comes in. Fortunately for me I recognize it almost immediately. I also see it simply as part of my past programming that still is there & I simply am re-programing it.

    In my walk the other day when I realized some negative stuff coming in I simply said “Not in my thinking, not in my experience.” This of course in my mind feels very effective in re-defining my self talk.

    That does not mean I ignore or airbrush over problems or negative feeling, but that I can feel them, process them & move on.

    My point? That by mastering our self talk, we help master our own experience & influence the world from that energy of positive life affirming solution oriented living.

  • mewabe

    Both of these beliefs are very primordial…the belief in a benevolent, loving and supporting father-God, and the belief in an authoritarian, stern and judgmental father-God. These two beliefs exist in Judeo-Christian religions. Both of these experiences also exist in the human world between parent and child.

    My question would be, why do we need either? Specifically in this case, where does the need for an unconditionally loving father (or mother) originate? That’s very loaded question, but worth asking, don’t you think, if we are going to get anywhere near our own personal, inner truth?

    I always had a different view…Never having made “God” into a person, whether father or mother.

    Of course we can “make” God into anything we want or need…the sky is the limit. But wouldn’t it be beneficial to question and examine these needs in order to grow past some of them, psychologically and emotionally?

    Another point: if we as human beings had each other’s back, if we were “our brother’s keeper” rather than being made to live in human jungles where the strong and cunning survives and the weak or naive or unlucky looses, would we still have such a powerful need for support from a God that we thus make into a loving and supporting parent to fit such a need?

    And to drive the main point home, not so subtly but clarity is often required: what is or was lacking in our lives that we might have such a need for unconditional love from a deity, and shouldn’t we face this lack and heal at the human level rather than ask a God to be the daddy, mommy or close friend we never had, or thought we never had?

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Those who have delved deeply & sublimely into the nature of God are often confronted with the idea that God is simply a reflection of themselves.

      CwG says we are God, only in smaller proportion. This is in regarding our present local physical selves. Not our Larger non local soul selves.

      For many, they can’t fathom their own divinity & thus go outside themselves like Jesus, Buddha, “The Flash” (laugh), or what ever shakes ones soda.

      If your concept of God gives you pleasure, makes your life more positive & life affirming, I say amen to that!

      • mewabe

        “Those who have delved deeply & sublimely into the nature of God are often confronted with the idea that God is simply a reflection of themselves.”

        Yes, and this is why it might be very beneficial to delve more deeply into our own nature, to get to know ourselves more truthfully and keenly, in order not to be driven or motivated by unhealed and unresolved needs, thoughts or desires.

        Indeed the concept of an unconditionally loving and supporting God appears to me to be the exact complementary reflection of a lack of love and support in one’s life. Shouldn’t this be addressed, rather than seeking a crutch?

        Basically, this is the equivalent of treating the symptom rather than the cause of a disease: the symptom is a lack of feeling of unconditional love and support in one’s life, being treated by a belief in an unconditionally loving and supporting God. The cause is rooted in the past of the individual, in emotional and psychological lack.

        Treating the cause does not necessarily eliminate a belief in deity…it just changes its characteristics, as needs and understanding evolve through personal healing.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          Great point!

  • Patrick Gannon

    “It feels good to me to……”

    Just like a happy drug. Sure it feels god, but that doesn’t mean it’s real or good for you.

    • mewabe

      The uncomfortable question is: why does someone need this belief to feel good? Why would a person feel bad without it, what is LACKING in such a person’s life? And if a person feels bad without such a belief in an unconditionally loving and supporting daddy God or mommy God, shouldn’t such a person seek healing, or at the very least to better understand his or her inner needs, emotional and psychological lacks and motivations?

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        I think from Neale’s perspective, if God exists, one concept seems & feels much better than the other. Given you have a belief in God in some way.

        • mewabe

          I understand that Neale makes a point by contrasting a loving God against an authoritarian God. But this belief in or at least a desire for an unconditionally loving and supporting God is nothing new and also almost universal…and my question is, what is lacking in the human experience that causes such a need, and shouldn’t this lack be examined, understood and potentially healed and resolved at the psychological and emotional levels?

          To express it more bluntly and clearly, what could have been missing in our childhood that as adults we still have this need for an all powerful, all protective and supporting, all loving daddy or mommy God?

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Well CwG also says God is neutral. What is lacking is a healthy concept of God.

            The Pygmy tribes as I understand it still believe in a deity. Yet the kids if I recall correctly for the first 1-3 years are always physically in touch with mom/dad or some other tribe member.

            Thus they are fully taken care of as a child.

            Thus, their self worth & self esteem are established for their life based on the close physical & emotional love given in the early years. Yet they still have a belief in deity.

          • mewabe

            Yes but what kind of deity? The Taoists believe in an “unnamable origin”, but they do not personify it to fulfill their human needs for unconditional love and support.
            My point is not that one way is better than the other, but that we should examine and question all of our thoughts, beliefs, needs, wants and desires in order to growth into our own truths and potentials.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            And that is a good point indeed!

          • mewabe

            Perhaps…everything should be questioned, including this point :)

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Yes, I agree. I also think that sometimes you just got to go for it & not question everything. But for the most part, question everything.

          • Patrick Gannon

            The more primitive the tribe, the more likely that the deity corresponds to nature, but the drive to seek a god out, appears to be evolutionarily induced. It provides an evolutionary advantage. It brings the tribe together in a common cause. It separates us from them.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I think it might be that, unlike other animals, we are more aware of our impending death and it scares us. I don’t know if animals are as aware of the fact that they will die as we are, but if they were, I suspect they would create gods as well.

            The trait to believe and trust authority is surely a product of evolution. When the parent yells, “don’t play with that snake” the child who fails to respond immediately also fails to pass its genes along. Extending this trust and belief in authority to an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky, also answers all the other questions about the natural world that they didn’t have when we first evolved as a species. We are the product of what came before us, and we’ll continue to evolve, but just as we still have genetics that traces back to dinosaurs, so too, these other traits will probably never completely leave us, unless and until we figure out how to genetically modify humans. Perhaps one day we can remove the fear, that associated with inclination to trust authority, makes us such easy marks for those who peddle beliefs for their own advantage.

            Today, our evolution works against us, allowing those who peddle beliefs to prosper by manipulating and leveraging our ingrained traits, in the same way the Church does so with our strong sex drive, without which we would not have survived as a species.

            It’s time to face up to the fact that this is all there is. Science does not claim to know everything, that’s for sure; but it does claim to know some things beyond reasonable doubt, and one of those is the understanding of particles and forces in our natural world. There simply are no unknown forces that can impact our particles, or that need to exist in order to explain certain unexplained actions. There are no unexplained actions. It’s clear now, that there are no gods or afterlives, or if there are, they don’t include us.

            How does understanding this change us? Does it make us fearful and cause us to lose hope? Do we run around killing, raping and robbing because there is no final punishment? Do we make the very best we can with what we have because there are no second chances?

          • mewabe

            “It’s time to face up to the fact that this is all there is”.

            This is interesting, because this is my path…but in a way that is a bit different, more from a Buddhist perspective.

            I believe that there is nothing past the here and now…or rather, that the here and now are the only doors to everything else. It’s a bit of a paradox, but easy to understand if you can get past some of these word limitations…For example, if you do not develop the ability to be present (“mindfulness”) today, you most likely won’t be present tomorrow or next day either…which is equivalent to not having a tomorrow.

            Same thing with being “here” (again, mindfulness). Those who are not mindful (present) experience life as through a speeding train, the future upon which they focus turning out to be nothing more than an ever evading present and a new future.

            And if you want to contemplate the possibilities of infinity and eternity, we can probably say, in a philosophical sense, that the door to infinity is “here”, and the door to eternity is “now”.

            So yes, here and now is truly all that actually matters, all else being merely a thought as far as our own personal human experience is concerned (a memory of the past or an expectation of the future).

          • Gross Prophet

            Perhaps it is not a ‘need’ so much as a subconscious recognition of a barely-perceived reality…kind of a ‘deep calling to deep’ kind of thing.

            Had someone never experienced this, to whatever degree they are capable, I don’t believe that it would be such a universally prevalent phenomena.

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      A placebo isn’t real yet it can still do good.

      • Patrick Gannon

        But it doesn’t really cure anything. It’s faking out your mind. That it works, tells us that it’s all in the mind, all in the brain, all in the neurons, synapses, nerve cells, connectome, hormones and other electrochemicals from which our consciousness emerges. The best thing we can do is keep studying the mind in order to find out how and why placebos work so that we can use this knowledge for greater benefit.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          Placebos work in certain cases & it proves that the mind influences certain illnesses. Some say all illness is of the minds creating. Studying the mind is always valuable.

  • Kirsten

    For once I agree Neale. As a female, I need to know someone has my back, the world is scary. I know that if my car unknowingly had a leak, that I will randomly glance at the temperature guage just as its rising to the red line. I need to know that I will be woken if theres a noise outside. I need to know my kids are always safe. I need to know the bills will always be paid even if my work turns over exactly what I need to the last cent. I need to know I would have just got my house spotless before unexpected visitors turn up. I need to know I will be drawn to call a cat in just as it reaches the front door. I need to know things will always fall in to place no matter what. I need to know if Im knackered after work the kids will decide to eat dinner out before I say a thing. I need to know if Im late with a deadline at work, then that customer will be late as well. I need to know I will never get sick when I have to be well and on to it. I need to know I will always have everything I could possibly need. I need to know a cats cyst will self erupt just before I spend a fortune at the vets. I need to know I will always know what I need to know.
    Its important to have faith, but thats not something we give, its something we receive.
    It feels good for me to believe in God. Without Him I would be screwed!!
    Take care,
    K

    • Patrick Gannon

      All those things you mention are natural consequences of your life. Why is it so hard for us to take credit for our own abilities, in being able to discern the sorts of things you mention, instead of crediting them to some imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky? You’ve learned to do these things, and you apparently do them well, so why can’t YOU take credit for that?

      In order for this immaterial being to make you “glance” at something, there are particles in your head that have to be manipulated. Your brain has to experience various sorts of activity involving neurons, synapses, hormones, nerve cells, electrochemicals, etc. in order to get you to “glance” at anything. There are no forces, outside of the ones we know about that can do such things. There is no need for any such forces to explain the actions of our particles in this natural world. YOU are making this happen, not something outside of you. Immaterial things cannot affect material things. We’ve known of this issue, at least since Princess Elizabeth of Bohemia put Descartes in his place many decades ago, in challenging his proposal of dualism. How does something immaterial push around the material things of the body? He couldn’t answer the question then, in part because he had no data. Today we can answer the question with remarkable precision – and the answer is that there is no such thing as forces such as souls, gods, or devils that can affect the particles in our natural world.

      • Kirsten

        Yes Patrick, if you say so.
        Then who put all these ‘natural forces’ in place? That are actually the Laws of Attraction, Synchronicity and God stating He will provide what Israelites need.
        Who designed intelligent thinking with our minds/souls, rather than brains? Who designed strong emotions like love? Who gives faith? Who designed us and all animals? Who determined dna especially that one microscopic egg and sperm can make a full person? You can find physical bodies around without God energy and soul…in a coma or propped up in wheelchairs with little control, 2 year old intelligence, generally drooling with a bandana bib. Go for it, but in rejecting God and dietys, you are rejecting your very own existance.
        Credit where credit is due, but I’m not that talented!! Haha.
        I understand your beliefs BUT I have to say they are wrong. Watch out for the Boogey Man…one aspect of a Hell state is suffering for your beliefs…God might jump down and be an Ogre to you!
        I personally choose to believe in truths proven to me and respect my makers, rather than send a clear message they arent wanted in my life or shouldnt exist just because physical science cant find them! Seek and ye will find.
        Take care,
        K

        • Patrick Gannon

          No, no, no. “I” don’t say so. The laws of physics and the results of countless experiments say so. If gods, souls or demons exist, they are moot within our natural world. They are unable to have any effect on the particles and forces that make up our natural world. It’s just that simple.

          Why does there have to be a “who” to put these things in place? There could be countless universes, and ours just happens to have these particular laws of physics. Other universes might be different. There is absolutely no evidence for any god to start the universe. The universe may have always existed, but we don’t know. It appears that time began at the Big Bang, but prior to that, the universe may have always existed. We just don’t know, and making up imaginary deities doesn’t answer the question in any useful way. If your god did create the universe, why did he make it so hostile to life? Nearly all of it is vacuum that will kill us in an instant. On our own small rock, circling an insignificant star in an insignificant galaxy in an insignificant corner of the universe, even most of the water will kill us, and we can’t live without technical assistance in large areas of this planet. If the universe was created for life like us, it was a lousy job.

          The foundation for the Abrahamic religions has completely collapsed. We know today, beyond reasonable doubt that there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt, and no conquest of Canaan, by the Israelites (although there is evidence that the Persians tore the place up). These pillars are the foundation for the Abrahamic gods. Without them, there is nothing left to support the existence of the imaginary, invisible being(s) that live in the sky.

          Besides, if you are going to insist that everything that exists had to have a creator – then that logic must necessarily apply to your god as well. Who created your god? Your conjecture that some god created the universe has no more evidence to support it than the hypothesis, that a random quantum fluctuation brought the universe into existence. Neither hypothesis can be proven at this point, but your hypothesis has been debunked by having its foundation removed.

          You asked “who gives faith?” I would ask – who curses us with faith? Faith is pretending to know things you don’t know. It’s lying to yourself. It’s telling your brain to pretend to know something that the brain knows it has no evidence for. It’s something bad that we do to ourselves and our society. Faith is not the solution, it’s not a gift – faith is the disease.

          Who “designed” us and the animals – please study evolution. We weren’t designed. We evolved as a result of natural selection. I can direct you to a basic online course to learn Evolution 101.

          Clearly you believe in Neale’s god of fear. It’s also interesting that like the many Christians I debate, you lead with Hell. Christians never attempt to entice me with heaven. They always turn to threatening me with Hell. This tells me they don’t really believe in heaven, or they question just how wonderful it will be. After all Satan and his buds were so discontented with the tyrannical master that they bailed out. In the campfire story about the tree, we know that the talking snake told the truth. The kids did not die when they ate of the lollipop of temptation, and they did become as gods, knowing good and evil after taking a lick – exactly as the snake proposed. The imaginary god at that time punished them for doing something they didn’t know was wrong. Gen 3:22 gives us fair warning that there are evil gods who lie ahead. Remember, in heaven we lose free will, so we’re zombies (thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven – not our will, Yahweh’s will). These souls if they exist, won’t be dragging our minds along with them, since none of the particles necessary to produce them will be going along for the trip. Even if somehow this were possible, heaven sounds like such a frightful bore. After the entertainment of watching non-believers burn for a few centuries, I suspect even that will get boring in time.

          So this guy dies and goes to heaven. The angel at the gate tells him, you can have anything you can imagine. This guy, being who he is, enjoys an endless stream of romantic escapades, he plays golf every day, often making a hole in one. He dines on the very finest food and wine. After 1000 years of so of this, he looks up the angel and he says, “Is this all there is to heaven?” The angel tells him, “Well there is one option we didn’t tell you about. You have the option to simply be eliminated.” They guy asks, “Does anyone ever take that option?” The angel answers, “Sooner or later, everyone does.”

          • Kirsten

            Hi ya,
            Im not Christian, I was a Kabbalist but have finished that journey now. Now Im just me! I used to post in here as Kristen.
            Ive never said God created Earth…Creator did. And The Source makes souls, and made God from His own energy, seeing the need for a Law enforcer and male in principles. God in turn made females, again seeing a need for something different to Himself.There are many different Gods, mine happens to be the Biblical one, the God of my family, the Israelites. Thats it. Genesis is a story, but to give some understanding, and a thousand years to God, so the story stretches over 6000 years I assume. Note people early in the OT lived to be close to 1000. Old bibles say that Creator made Earth, not God, early Christians changed it to suit themselves, just as they change everything. Christianity is man made, and I agree that most are imagining God in tneir lives, but I dont. Scripture even states ‘I will hate you countries who invite detestable yellow people to live amonst you’. Why would any Asian then choose the Biblical God as their diety? I assume they havnt read that bit!! You cant dismiss things that are proven to others just because their experiences differ to your own. Why would anyone want to believe in someone or something that hasnt proven themselves to be real. Surely that would be defined as a mental health illness?
            Also look up fire, sulphur and other things in a dream interpretation book, Hell is just a mental state altho a crap environment may be in place to bring it about.
            Take care,
            K

          • Jethro

            “You cant dismiss things that are proven to others just because their experiences differ to your own.”

            Very powerful statement.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “You cant dismiss things that are proven to others just because their experiences differ to your own.”

            Jethro, I don’t find this statement to be powerful at all. I completely disagree with it.

            See the word “proven.” Actually science seldom uses that word. Unlike religionists, scientists are willing to admit they might be wrong and to change their views based on new evidence. Have you ever seen a single religious text changed on the basis of new evidence?

            However assuming that something has been “proven” means that compelling objective evidence was provided, that the scientific process was followed, that observations were made, experiments repeated with the same results, predictions made that arise from the data, that turn out to be true. These things would lead to something being “proven” enough to others, such as scientists, that the less educated and knowledgeable among us can trust the conclusions to be pretty reliable, and particularly to be confident that if it turns out to be wrong, we will be so informed.

            There is no logical or rational basis to accept the subjective and otherwise completely unsupported evidence for The Source, Creator, God, Essential Essence, Pure Energy, or the myriad of other capitalized words that refer to an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky.

            Subjective evidence is not “proof” and we all know our brains can’t be trusted. Subjective evidence is often completely unreliable evidence. Ask 5 people to describe an incident and you’ll get 5 different stories. Look at how many people have been sent to prison, based on subjective experience, who were later found by science-based DNA evidence to be innocent. In my state, four Navy sailors were just pardoned after decades in prison because DNA evidence cleared them. They were convicted on “proven” subjective experience, except that of course it was anything but “proven.”

            YES, if the so-called “proof” is subjective evidence, we can absolutely dismiss such things, and indeed we are compelled to do so if we are being honest with ourselves.

            I’m sure that Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite and Charles Manson all had “experiences” that were “proof” to them.

          • Jethro

            The human mind does not always operate on facts. Proof to one person is not proof to another always. I get what you’re saying and I agree with it. But, what you require as proof is not required as prove to others. Believing is truth to the believer regardless of how they receive the information and how much proof they had of its actual truth. I was a drunk who believed drinking made me feel better, I had proof because after drinking I felt better. Now I know it wasn’t true but belief made it true at the time and what about the proof I had. I’ll say that at the time it made me feel better. There’s nothing about human thought that is cut and dry, it’s too fluid, there’s too many variables throughout someone’s life and their different experiences to deny someone’s proof. That proof is their truth regardless of how senseless it my seem.

          • Patrick Gannon

            It is not incumbent, however on others who may be more rational, to accept as proofs, things that clearly aren’t. When so-called “proofs” violate natural laws, there is nothing wrong with calling this to attention. If nonsense is not challenged it proliferates.

          • Jethro

            Not at all. It’s not my concern nor my duty to make sure anyone believes anything any certain way. You make a valid statement though, challenge nonsense. Your road block will always be faith in the unseen. People believe. It’s why I asked what you then would have said to you now, you once believed too. You know how strong that belief is. You’ve been on both sides, I have been on both sides. I believe in a power greater than myself, or a cause greater than myself but it has nothing to do with an invisible being in the sky.

          • Patrick Gannon

            What is the difference between “God” and “Creator” (using caps like Neale in order to signify that the word somehow means something different when it is capitalized?). So now we have Gods and Creators? What’s the difference?

            Oh my, and now in addition to God and Creator, we have “The Source” who makes souls (those immaterial things that have absolutely no effect within our natural world). And this “The Source” made God (singular) who is to enforce the law (who lays down the law? What law – the one that says to stone homosexuals?). Then you go on to say there is not a God, but many gods. Did “The Source” make these gods too? Somewhere along the line, The Source made Yahweh, your god, the most miserable of all the gods ever conceived of, as best I can tell. Kirsten, surely you don’t expect me to take you seriously?

            Your assertion that people lived 1000 years is patently ridiculous. There is absolutely no fossil evidence to support that. A 100,000 years ago as modern man emerged, the average life was probably mid-twenties at best. By Jesus’ time this had risen to mid-30s, at best. The idea of 1000 year old people is completely without foundation, as I’m sure you know,

            You’re a sweet gal, and I’ve enjoyed chatting with you in the past, but from my perspective, you are far removed from reality.

          • Kirsten

            There are many dieties above, and always has been. Creator makes the pbysical, The Source the invisible and souls, then there are Gods.
            Btw..the stoning reference is to sodomy, not gay. And only a Law in Israel, the privately owned land of the Israelite family where they CHOSE Jehovah as their God, and He chose them.
            Its sad that you lost your faith and are now so damn stubborn that you would rather continue life with such a closed barrier in front of you, rather than seeking and inviting God or others to prove their existance to you.
            Again, my reality is proven to me….I have high functioning autism, my world is black and white…fact or fiction, like your thinking is black and white BUT, again, I have different things proven to me, realities.
            The OT is my family records, and if it states all the ages people died then Im not calling God or my ancestors liars. Why would they lie about that?. Read the early OT when it tells you the ages people dies.

            Take care Patrick,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Give me some sort of objective evidence for any of these deities. You can say that you “believe” that there are such deities, but you are speaking, as Neale often does, in absolute terms about something you have absolutely no more evidence for than he does for his god. You can’t both be right, but you can certainly both be wrong.

            Your story of the “privately owned land” of the Israelites has been thoroughly debunked – in large part by Israeli archaeologists who had access to the places described in the bible, and who have now admitted that the Exodus certainly did not occur as depicted in the bible.

            In order to have a shot at peace in the mideast, the Israelis need to publicly admit that they have no god-given right to their land because the Genesis stories have all been fully debunked. That doesn’t mean they have to leave, but admitting they have no god-given right to be there, would be the first step in the “global conversation” that we all need to have about how the Abrahamic religions have been fully debunked and the foundation washed away.

            I am completely open to Yahweh-Jesus or any other god proving his or her existence to me with compelling, objective evidence. Otherwise it’s just magic, like unicorns and fairies, with exactly the same evidence.

            Why would your ancestors lie? That’s pretty easy. The Persians beat the crap out of them and exiled them to Iraq. In order to feel better about themselves they invented a history that never happened.

          • Kirsten

            Hi.
            I dont believe in things, I KNOW. Believing in something doesnt make it real.
            I dont need to give you evidence of anything, its all around you and in you, if you dont want to see it all then thats your choice, just as its the choice of others to see it all.
            When I was under spirit guides I would have been able to ask them to do party tricks for you, try asking your own guides to do that.
            Or do you have a way of disputing the weight on an invisible person sitting on your bed, like a dog jjmping up and feeling their energy vibrations? Or if in a closed room asking them to prove they are there and spinning a hanging mobile? Or being shown an image of your son with his arm in a cast two days before he breaks his arm? Or even ten minutes ago wen I forgot to do my wages and work bankings yesterday so bills account went $617 overdrawn (Im useless remembering to do bankings!!), and another account had exactly $617.59 in it to transfer over online, or a customer needing 1.4m of a ribbon and roll had exactly that.
            I can prove a thousand things to you, but you arent here you youll have to look yourself…..if you dare.
            Wanting to be right means you also have to accept and understand when you are wrong. Anything else is just sheer stubborness.
            Take care,
            K

          • Jethro

            “””I dont believe in things, I KNOW. Believing in something doesnt make it real”.

            I know…

            I could not find anything about God leaving in “77” could you re-elaborate? Is this your spirit guide talking or something more popular, more talked about?

          • Kirsten

            Hi Jethro,
            I cant give you proof..remember Im a Kabbalah teacher, this is what we study. We dont believe in mysteries or majic, everything can be explained somehow, by moving up the scale to get closer to God, where intuition, understanding and instincts get stronger, as a tool. I dont have guides, I havnt for maybe 15 years, their job is to just guide you in the right direction. And most are just dead people anyway, I hate them!!! Ghosts! and would ignore anything I heard or dispute it anyway. Thats not of God, God works with signs and will give tools needed, then show you what you need to know. ‘Seek and ye will find’ is God’s way, as well as Christs.
            When trying to work out how the world turned to such crap years ago, I know the 70s in America were hell, but in NZ it was Heaven I stumbled on God leaving in 1977. No crime, unemployment, immigration etc. In NZ every married couple got a Govt loan for their first home, all on a quarter acre with a token 6 big fruit frees and para pool, nuclear families with 2.5 children. We are a colonised social experiment from Victorian England. Most peoples lives were very Trueman show. Every summer we would all have a week at the beach, almost all had lives of equality countrywide. Ok there was obviously crap, but we were almost a communist country with govt ownership of everything, plus govt approving all imports and exports and it really worked. Govt was debt free, all had a free eduction including University, free medical care etc. The changes in our little world were huge between 1977 and 1982, by then it had all turned to crap. We all watched everything unravel.
            Psychically I was able to count years like psychics do on tv to get peoples ages and 1977 ‘felt’ odd and I saw it with a dark cloud. Then I did the same with names and God faded away the same year, replaced by a black cloud. Then I looked to astrology and there were huge astrological changes in 1977, the ‘age of freewill’. Then looked to scripture in a trance state asking God for guidance, and flicked straight to a scripture stating Satan will have a turn ruling near the end of times. Then looked up stuff in the Bible Codes. Then all prophecies and read that Satan would rule with another God (Neptune I guess, the party God of no self control), either Nostradamus or Da Vinci I think. The asked God for varification I was on the right track and was led to open a CwG book 4 I think, in a bookshop, opening to a page that stated ‘I am a new god’, confirming Neales bookes are not of Jehovah God. Then followed Gods guidance for more proof, opening a new age channelled book that said God and those of good were overthrown in the late 70s, then Revelations stating God comes into rule in the end of times, so His full rule hasnt even started yet, then looked at everything from that time including the first apple computer released then, with its first logo of Isaac Newton under an apple tree (representing the forbidden Tree of Knowledge), that sold for $666.66c. Then to Universal stuff, the protective shield around Earth was too damaged in 1977 to protect Earth from other realms and evil, looked at the messages in all songs in 1976-1978, John Lennon with Imagine, a Satanic message, etc, then all movies..Star Wars about sci fi, Watership Downs about false Gods, all fashion changes since clothes and especially shoes can be ‘read’ as they tell you everything about that person. Then looked into every tiny change I noticed and the symbology behind it…woollen blankets replaced with duvets, leather shoes replaced with man made, crochet clothes replaced with machine made crap, houses became brick here, the Tower of Babel story in scripture, laws changed to allow more bars with longer opening hours, God forbids drunkeness, our education system changed when the Wests ed system was Kabbalic, general knowledge and life skills (The University of Life), all primary/elementary schools introduced uniforms when we had been fine with shorts, a tshirt and jandals/flipflops, immigration became rife and so on. Everything I looked at gave me the same answer.
            With Kabbalah, every question ends up taking weeks to answer as you are generally your own teacher with an overseer, and you are correct when YOU cant dispute the answer at all, as Einstein taught ( a Kabbalist, as was Da Vinci and most of them), instead of giving you the answer they will teach you to think, research and find the answer for yourself because thinking is a science as much as anything else. You are also correct when you are back where you started, working through a figure 8. I started psychically with something happened in 1977, and God faded away. Ended with having enough information to KNOW God left Earth in 1977.
            Although Patrick will have something to say about that!! He wont see it as a science to prove information, although you start with a theory, then hypothesis, ending up with a result that will prove you right or wrong!!
            Sorry this is so long rather than a website link, but then again, computers are just an attempt to replicate the human mind and brain anyway, so just pretend you read it on a different website and I was able to give you book references, sorry Ive read a million so have no idea other than my own boxes of notes!!
            Take care,
            K

          • Kirsten

            My reply that you will have was in here, stayed up for 13 minutes then disappeared!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Btw I said somethjng wrong..I didnt study songs just from 1976/1978, I did all 70s songs, my childhood! I must know every word to every song. Fav was, and still is I Can See Clearly Now. The key change midway is sheer joy, especially the 90s version. Made me laugh as a kid and still does.
            K

          • Jethro

            Hi K,
            I’m not one who is always looking for “proof”, remember I’m a Pisces. I know it by feeling. I was very curious if 77′ was a popular belief or not. Your explanation was much better than an internet site or link to one. I’ve looked at things in the same manor and I had determined for many years, that the beginning of todays poor world situation began in the 60’s, Then I traced it further back to the first world war. But, the end of the 60’s still stands out. I wonder what an older African American would say on that subject concerning slavery and all. Would they say God finally showed up in 1860’s?
            I point to the 60’s because that was the time of unrest, a time when people were letting go of traditions, new technologies had reached a point that the majority of the people could not do what people had been doing for thousands of years to just prepare a homemade meal. You make cakes, I’m assuming you can do that from scratch? No box cake? nobody does that anymore… anyway. Wars have played a major roll in the changes we see today. Our soldiers went out seen what they seen and decided there was not a god or it deepened their belief in one. In either case they were heavily effected by the entire experience in a terrible way. The 60’s brought a rise in old spiritual beliefs. Some had been banned at some point in history. Witchcraft morphed into Wicca, eastern religions became popular, Sex became an expression of freedom and people began to show more of their bodies. There is a whole lot more than that which occurred in america and I’m sure it wasn’t confined to just our borders. 1977 sounded pretty good! I just thought I might get some other stories if they were available.

            I have a close eye on electronic technology! I’m waiting for the new Iphone that gets injected into the body…

            Thank you for explaining.

            Kirsten
            Hi Jethro,
            I cant give you proof..remember Im a Kabbalah teacher, this is what we study. We dont believe in mysteries or majic, everything can be explained somehow, by moving up the scale to get closer to God, where intuition, understanding and instincts get stronger, as a tool. I dont have guides, I havnt for maybe 15 years, their job is to just guide you in the right direction. And most are just dead people anyway, I hate them!!! Ghosts! and would ignore anything I heard or dispute it anyway. Thats not of God, God works with signs and will give tools needed, then show you what you need to know. ‘Seek and ye will find’ is God’s way, as well as Christs.
            When trying to work out how the world turned to such crap years ago, I know the 70s in America were hell, but in N Z it was Heaven I stumbled on God leaving in 1977. No crime, unemployment, immigration etc. In NZ every married couple got a Govt loan for their first home, all on a quarter acre with a token 6 big fruit frees and para pool, nuclear families with 2.5 children. We are a colonised social experiment from Victorian England. Most peoples lives were very Trueman show. Every summer we would all have a week at the beach, almost all had lives of equality countrywide. Ok there was obviously crap, but we were almost a communist country with govt ownership of everything, plus govt approving all imports and exports and it really worked. Govt was debt free, all had a free eduction including University, free medical care etc. The changes in our little world were huge between 1977 and 1982, by then it had all turned to crap. We all watched everything unravel.
            Psychically I was able to count years like psychics do on tv to get peoples ages and 1977 ‘felt’ odd and I saw it with a dark cloud. The n I did the same with names and God faded away the same year, replaced by a black cloud. Then I looked to astrology and there were huge astrological changes in 1977, the ‘age of freewill’. Then looked to scripture in a trance state asking God for guidance, and flicked straight to a scripture stating Satan will have a turn ruling near the end of times. Then looked up stuff in the Bible Codes. Then all prophecies and read that Satan would rule with another God (Neptune I guess, the party God of no self control), either Nostradamus or Da Vinci I think. The asked God for varification I was on the right track and was led to open a CwG book 4 I think, in a bookshop, opening to a page that stated ‘I am a new god’, confirming Neales bookes are not of Jehovah God. Then followed Gods guidance for more proof, opening a new age channelled book that said God and those of good were overthrown in the late 70s, then Revelations stating God comes into rule in the end of times, so His full rule hasn t even started yet, then looked at everything from that time including the first apple computer released then, with its first logo of Isaac Newton under an apple tree (representing the forbidden Tree of Knowledge), that sold for $666.66c. Then to Universal stuff, the protective shield around Earth was too damaged in 1977 to protect Earth from other realms and evil, looked at the messages in all songs in 1976-1978, John Lennon with Imagine, a Satanic message, etc, then all movies..Star Wars about sci fi, Watership Downs about false Gods, all fashion changes since clothes and especially shoes can be ‘read’ as they tell you everything about that person. Then looked into every tiny change I noticed and the symbology behind it…woollen blankets replaced with duvets, leather shoes replaced with man made, crochet clothes replaced with machine made crap, houses became brick here, the Tower of Babel story in scripture, laws changed to allow more bars with longer opening hours, God forbids drunkeness, our education system changed when the Wests ed system was Kabbalic, general knowledge and life skills (The University of Life), all primary/elementary schools introduced uniforms when we had been fine with shorts, a tshirt and jandals/flipflops, immigration became rife and so on. Everything I looked at gave me the same answer.
            With Kabbalah, every question ends up taking weeks to answer as you are generally your own teacher with an overseer, and you are correct when YOU cant dispute the answer at all, as Einstein taught ( a Kabbalist, as was Da Vinci and most of them), instead of giving you the answer they will teach you to think, research and find the answer for yourself because thinking is a science as much as anything else. You are also correct when you are back where you started, working through a figure 8. I started psychically with something happened in 1977, and God faded away. Ended with having enough information to KNOW God left Earth in 1977.
            Althoug h Patrick will have something to say about that!! He wont see it as a science to prove information, although you start with a theory, then hypothesis, ending up with a result that will prove you right or wrong!!
            Sorry this is so long rather than a website link, but then again, computers are just an attempt to replicate the human mind and brain anyway, so just pretend you read it on a different website and I was able to give you book references, sorry Ive read a million so have no idea other than my own boxes of notes!!
            Take care,
            K

          • Kirsten

            Hi ya,
            Interesting. Yes it did all start in ww2, but perhaps since I live in NZ then He left NZ in 77. We were the last country set up from scratch in the 1800/1900s so perhaps the last country conquered and God driven away as well.
            BUT in saying that, as an Israelite I also knew my soul/me, was in a 1977 timewarp with music, fashion, decor and everything, Im still in the late 70s I think, anything else is a case of wtf, and God is still definately there and around for Israelites, back to where He started as we head back through scripture (thats what Revelation is, the reversal of everything. That final Heaven is still a mental state, then you get back to an Eden, where no wrong is permitted.
            Information, academia, this website etc are the Tree of Knowledge, hence Apple computers logo and first sale price, evil have to be blatant and it is if people look. Vodaphones logo was originally ex 6 as well. Corruptive singers like Miley Cyrus and Katy Perry openly do Satans hand signal.
            Humans are meant to be nice, innocent, do no wrong as they have no concept of wrong, be interested in each other, love animals and babies, work just because they have to but its irrelevant in their lives, only study animals, food growing and people, love music and nice things, love hard and fast, laugh and have joy in their lives etc. NOT THIS. Our minds should also wander to the mundane as well, huge daydreamers, plus be honest. When you said about your other post, and poor communication skills I had to smile, I guess thats what it was, we arent meant to concentrate deeply or try hard remember language is a verbal trait and spontanious. People should only type as they would speak verbally. Never boring! The net is a haven for boring people….The Tree of Knowledge does that to ya!! Youll be wearing a chambray shirt and sandals before you know it..the uniform of bores!
            Re Piscies…yes I trust intuition as well, but as a teacher I also do the research to back things up.
            Intrresting about box cakes?? Really? Here packet food like fettucine etc sell well but people bake and cook. I will admit I buy packet gravy though and get tv roast dinners as a standby for the occasional time the kids are starving. But the thought of macaroni cheese etc not made from scratch is odd. But we all buy food a lot…in my little island on the bottom of the world, an area that was a small suburb until 20 years agom I can drive a radious of ten mins from home and there are 3x McD’s, 2x Pizza Hut,, 2x Burger King, Wendys, Carls Junior, 3x Subway and Dunkin donuts! All staffed fully by Philipinos and Indians…no idea why.
            Take care, K

          • Jethro

            You have the highest rate of disappearing messages ever!!! I don’t see what’s so threatening!!!……Anyway, I hope the rain and flooding stop soon. Put some of your millions in a retaining wall or build something that counts on 100’s of gallons of water and I guarantee it will stop.

          • Kirsten

            Haha. The non existant majician moderator! Told ya Im censored. All opinions allowed, other than mine! Ask Neale or the real moderator wny theyre threatened! Or I may be deemed a troll! Doesnt bother me, its actually quite funny for a freedom of speech site, when CwG teaches ghere are two sides to every story.
            Flooded again. We have a retaining wall, unfortunately we are having torrential rain like never seen before, more this morning, cars trapped on roads etc. Flooded again on Sun nite. Carpet people have had 500 call outs, what they normally do in a year. In a city of 2 million thats a high percentage, when there are probably only 300thou houses. My log retaining wall is now a water feature, with pretty fountains between each log as water from 50cm below ground level spews out it, down onto my driveway, pooling and going in a bedroom ranch slider that is only 10cm above driveway level. The water can rise 10cm in five minutes. Our city and drainage isnt made for this, torrential rain is a new thing, and more than three hours of rain is unheard of as well.
            Luckily we can trap the water in two rooms by using mattresses and stuff and my son and his girlfriend have moved to the lounge upstairs, the other room was a spare and storage. Impatiently waiting for contents assessors, house ones went today when it was peeing down again. Grrr! NZ houses have small rooms compared to American TV, and we dont have basements or attics, so its all a pain with a lack of space.
            Need to get it sorted though, mite take out ranchslider completely and have a but ugly house. My street all has houses sideways to get all day sun, so most look ugly anyway especially mine, cant get too much worse.
            Millions….hahaha, good joke. Donations welcome!!
            Take care,
            K

            Ps, great poem…I write sins not tragedies song. My genre! Good closing doors line and great video clip, I love it and the clothes.

          • Patrick Gannon

            None of the things you describe require a supernatural explanation. None of that, “in you” and “around you” stuff is useful evidence. There are natural explanations based on the laws of physics in our natural world that explain those things.

            I notice that you didn’t attempt to refute my the debunking of the Abrahamic gods. Your god has washed away…. sorry. I think you are the one who is stubborn in refusing to acknowledge that your god has had his foundation washed away.

          • Kirsten

            Hahaha, your beliefs are very odd, rejecting anything that differs to your own experience.
            My God is alive and well thank you, not ruling Earth, but as the God of Israelites again. So now you’re saying that you actually know more about me, my life and God active in it, than I actually do myself??? And that you know so much more about other peoples experiences that you can actually tell them that they are either lying, nutters or hallucinating????
            You’re actually making yourself look like a douche now.
            I dont refute much as its pointless. I was married to a narcissist who always has to be right in his views, and one of my sons is as well, just like 30% of the male population. I know when something is a waste of time. Whats next? Your ancestors evolved from a sea mollusk slug thing? Or pigs since they have close dna to us? Il stick with mine and their God.
            Youre playing on the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, I dance to a different beat. I prefer the Tree of Life thanks.
            All said with a smile as always, but you do make me laugh. Youve decided something and thats that, not negotiable. Most people base their opinions and information they know to be the truth through personal experience, or learn from the experiences of others if interested, rather than dismissing them.
            Take care,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Did I say that I know more about you, your life, etc. than you do yourself? No, I did not. I (apparently) know a lot more about science and how our natural world works than you do, however!

            In case Annie is following this, I should point out that this is another example of questioning someone’s beliefs and the cognitive dissonance within them, creating hostility. (Given that I am now a douche!). This kind of response is predictable, when one’s beliefs are challenged.

            I suggest that it is you who has “decided something and that’s that, not negotiable.” I change my views whenever the evidence indicates that I should do so. I used to be Christian, then I became a worshipper of the New Spirituality religion, even to the point of evangelism, then I became a naturalist – one who strives to understand the laws of nature. I most definitely am not a person who decides something, and that’s that. Show me some real, tangible, compelling, objective evidence for anything supernatural, and you’ll have my attention.

            I don’t trust the experiences of others – or even of my own brain. I have learned too much about the brain to trust it beyond a certain point.

            Do you accept that there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan, as science, history and archaeology have confirmed, and you simply believe in your magical god anyway? Without these pillars, there is no foundation for him. Yahweh, Allah and Jesus have all washed away…..

            We can let this go, I performed my little experiment, got the results I predicted… I’m done. Sorry for using you as a guinea pig for my own experiment…

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Actually, I am following the conversation. And I can’t help but point out something you say repeatedly, in one form or another, that I’ve been meaning to ask you about:

            “I don’t trust the experiences of others – or even of my own brain. I have learned too much about the brain to trust it beyond a certain point.”

            Scientific experiments are “experiences of others,” performed by scientists with brains that interpret the outcomes of those experiments. If others, such as those who have had their own spiritual experiences (often “on demand” under specific conditions such as meditation) can be deluded by their brains, can’t a scientist also be deluded in interpreting their results?

            If masses of people, such as those who belong to a religious organization, can be suffering from a mass delusion, can’t a group of scientists also suffer mass delusions in interpreting their results? Especially if their reputations and livelihoods rely on the results?

            If you’re reading something with your brain, which interprets what you read, how can you trust your interpretation of the reading? How can you even trust any of your senses, all of which are processed and interpreted by your brain, how can you trust any experience you have at all?

            If the brain can’t be trusted, how can we know anything at all?

            I’m not being facetious. It just doesn’t make sense to me that you say you don’t trust the brain, yet you use that very organ when you come to your own perceptions and conclusions.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Very well said Annie! I am neither for or against any part of this conversation but what you said makes total sense.

          • Patrick Gannon

            It’s a valid question. I do use the brain to come to my own conclusions but I evaluate objective evidence, rather than subjective experiences in order to make those decisions – or at least I try to. It is better, I think, to subjectively evaluate objective evidence, which is what my brain does, than to subjectively evaluate subjective evidence, which in itself is far less trustworthy.

            A subjective experience is in no way comparable to objective, empirical evidence. Believers are working strictly with subjective evidence. If they had objective evidence they would most surely present it. If you had evidence for this ‘universal energy’ thing, you would surely present it. The “outcomes of those experiments” must deliver objective evidence or they are of very little value.

            One can gather objective evidence of subjective experiences and catalog them and compare them and draw some conclusions from them, but the process of doing this is based on the objective evidence that was collected. This approach must be taken carefully. Many people will tell us that they have had subjective experiences of this or that. We can objectively take note of how many people have similar experiences, or how similar they are, or what they were doing when these things happened, or evaluate them in any of a number of ways, but since the evidence flows from subjective experience, we can’t confirm the experiences themselves, we can only confirm the ways in which people report similar experiences, or however else we want to correlate and collate the results.

            Can scientists make mistakes? Absolutely, which is one reason good scientists will very rarely, if ever, say something is “proven.” The scientific process is always open to new information and evidence. What new information and evidence do you have there that some universal energy or whatever you want to call it, possesses intelligence and an ability to affect the things in our natural world? Absolutely none.

            If you follow scientific announcements as I do, then you know there is a steady flow of new articles talking about how the brain works, and none of the results point to magic. They all point to the inner workings of the brain. Indeed we are learning that we can stimulate the brain to fix a myriad of problems.

            I don’t see how “mass delusions” would be possible in the face of objective evidence, but if you can provide an example, I’ll certainly consider it. I can’t come up with an example of how this would or could happen in the scientific community, though of course it occurs in the religious community far more frequently.

            I cannot trust the interpretation of my brain when it is reading something – that’s a subjective experience. The data in the book may be (should be, if scientific) objective, and that would lend credence to my subjective interpretation, but I could certainly be wrong – which is why I read different authors regarding the same subject, in order to make sure I have a more complete understanding. When I read a book full of scientific facts, I’m not dealing with subjective matter. I’m dealing with things that have been illustrated and repeated in countless experiments, always yielding the exact same results.

            It is entirely possible, and a number of scientists propose this, that our brains are completely wrong and that all of this is a simulation. All we know for sure is that we don’t know; however we appear to live in a natural world, and we understand the laws of that natural world very well, up to a point. We know beyond reasonable doubt that if there were magical forces acting on us, that we would have found them by now. We know about neutrinos, for instance, that are so small they don’t actually affect our particles – so how could some force that can affect our particles exist without us being aware of it? Also there are no unexplained actions of particles that require this magical force or particle in order to explain them.

            I think we have to go with the odds. The odds that this magical force or particle that can cause us to see visions, heal tissue, etc., exists, is so incredibly small that it makes little sense to waste time considering it.

          • Kirsten

            OOPS, MEANT TO TYPE AS A REPLY TO ANNIE. APOLOGIES.

            Hi Annie,
            I watched a BBC doco last year on how deceptive our brains are. Often a case of mind over matter, when we mentally decide something before our brain and eye messages have a chance to process what we see, then our brain will almost sit back.
            I see this all the time at work but never knew what it was until I saw that, I was almost thinking people are actually colourblind.
            If customers want a red ribbon, but like a pattern on a burgundy one that is on the same row, they will buy it them often come back later saying they thought it was red. I guess rose tinted or beer bottle glasses are a real thing.
            Take care,
            K
            PS when I look at your name I still see that picture of a zen like garden, veryasian, with an old man sitting under a tree watching you, and you working in a kitchen or similar casually. Very wierd. But food preparation is a sign for nurturing.

          • Patrick Gannon

            That’s OK, because I have commented here many times about how our brains can’t be trusted, and am happy to have you agree. Our brains create patterns in order to respond to situations quickly, but often these patterns are false.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Kirsten,

            Maybe it is the Buddha energy represented by the old man under the tree (a common depiction), come to visit as I tend to nourishing the body to remind me that I must tend to my own needs, even before the Buddha, as told in story. The depiction of a Zen garden sounds peaceful. I think I hear humming… a chime… a bird…

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Kirsten

            Hi Annie,
            Probably, that would be my interpretation as well. Its just the first time ive seen anything that is symbology based, hence telling you a year ago. I hope you are right.
            Take care,
            K

          • Kirsten

            Hahaha.
            Or I know more about things you dont, and can read any scientific literature I want to as well!!
            Good experiment…was your prediction that I would just laugh?? My beliefs weren’t challenged, by default since I dont have any. Just facts proven to me in my own life.
            Never said you were a douche, I said you were making yourself look like one in insisting that other peoples experiences and truths simply cannot be true because your own beliefs do not allow for ours.
            But if you do want to pretend I am a Christian, again Ill say watch out for the boogey man, me might put you in hell since literature says thats a state where you suffer for your beliefs!! Something I dont support…but hey, Im not a CwGer, I dont believe Im a form of God, so I dont have a say in these things.
            All said with a smile as always.
            Take care,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, my prediction was that you would show hostility. I chose to challenge your beliefs because you seldom exhibit any sort of hostility at all. (You are very much like one of my sisters).

            You play word games, like Neale. Saying I am making myself look like a douche is clear enough – don’t bother trying to wiggle out of it. It’s OK, I did it on purpose. I wanted to see if I could evoke a hostile reaction from you by challenging your beliefs, and I did. Not a meaningful experiment in and of itself, but I’ve done this many times, in many forums, and the results are seldom different – only the degree of hostility. I mentioned my sister, and she is the one person who has yet to get mad at me for challenging her beliefs, but I keep trying!

            You are also using the word “know” in a way that I don’t think most would not consider to be valid, though you will find some of those folks here. When we “know” things, we have evidence for them, and we all tend to agree on them. We all “know” the sun is going to rise in the east and set in the west. You don’t “know” your gods or sources or forces or whatever terminology you want to use, are real, because of course, there is no evidence for them. You can only “believe” this. Like Neale, you can torture the language and say you “know” this, but without evidence, it’s completely subjective and that just doesn’t hold any evidentiary value. Why can’t you just admit that you believe it? That’s what the word is for. To “know” is to be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information. Obviously no god has ever been observed, no inquiry responded to in an objective manner, and no information about these deities and gods and powers is available to us that is not subjective. This can only mean belief, and if you insist on using the word “know,” when the far more correct word is “belief,” then like Neale, you are bastardizing the language and reducing its usefulness as a tool to express things. If we can’t agree on at least some meanings for basic words, then they are of little value and we may as well go back to grunts and banging rocks together.

            True, there is a gradation between knowing and believing. Knowing is, I suppose, a very secure form of belief. I hate the word “believe” but nevertheless, by common usage, I will grant that I “believe” the sun will come up in the east tomorrow. I believe it very strongly because I have overwhelming evidence that this is a reliable prediction. I can safely say in this case, that I “know” it, (although I keep open the miniscule possibility that it may not come up in the east tomorrow – but I won’t change the way I live my life on that impossibly small chance). I prefer to “think that” rather than “believe in” because it keeps things more clear.

            I think most people would agree that they “know” the sun will come up in the east and they “believe” in imaginary, invisible beings that live in the sky.

            I am not pretending you are a Christian. I’m not sure why you’ve said that. I know you are a Kabbalist, a Judaic school of thought and discipline. Your people brought us the imaginary, invisible, petty tyrant, Yahweh who lives in the sky; but they built him on top of a platform, a foundation, that has completely eroded. Jewish archaeologists know this better than anyone as they had access to the places to search that nobody else did – and they came up empty handed, and declared it a lost cause. Leading Jewish archaeologists now admit that the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan, never happened, as described in the bible. We also know there was no six day creation (do you agree?), that there was no global flood (do you agree?) and geneticists know there was no two-person (Adam and Eve) DNA bottleneck in our evolutionary path. There’s simply nothing left to support Yahweh except the ancient beliefs of primitive people who did not understand their natural world and so they made stuff up to explain it.

            It is interesting that you make the point about Hell, while denying that you are a Christian (which I never accused you of). It’s interesting because Christians never tell me about the heaven I will miss. I can’t recall a single incident of that happening. They never hold out that carrot. I mean, after all, even angels like Satan couldn’t put up with that butthead of a god, Yahweh. If heaven was so wonderful, why would anyone want to leave it? Christians never go there. They always threaten Hell. You say you’re not a Christian, but at least you have the story line down pat!

          • Kirsten

            Patrick..I havnt had time to read that past the first and last paragraph, I will later. But I obviously wasnt able to make my point. Im just laughing, not hostile at all. Born again Christians are about the only people that have the ability to pee me off, I really am just laughing and everything I say is with a smile.
            I get what you are doing. Trying to save souls…you dont want others to be conned or believe untruths like you did, a personal crusade.
            Im here doing a similar thing, just making sure CwGers are aware that CwG is of another God, not the one of scripture and there may be consequences for such blasphme, thats all. Ive been on Neales sites for years, including in the old Spirit Forge groupie site, that Neale disassociated from before starting this one when they were on 20/20 or 60 minutes showing their true colours. I was one of their victims, they hated me. They tracked computer IPN or whatever addresses, including that I used a friends computer a couple of times, and she used mine and posted that info up, accusing her of being me, they tracked everything I did. And sent us viruses to crash our entire computer system that couldnt be repaired to get rid of me. All shown on tv, they were proud to show the tv crew how they did it. But I did play games when I realised they were lying about stuff. They denied hostile psychos were moderators, but one night USA time someone put up a porn link so I told them. Voila, one of the psychos replied saying thanks, they would remove it. And also emailed hard questions, again so it would be 3am USA time..funnily enough everytime, the site ‘owner’ just happened to be awake at that time to answer me a half hour later. I was on their hit list bigtime, and they made it very clear that they knew their intentions were not good. Die hard CwG groupies!!

            If you want to know about Heaven, then use a dream interpretation book or site to translate the properties of the gems and Gods traits then. The dead sea scrolls have info as well. What it wont tell you is how the Lamb determines what is in his criteria to get in the Books of Life. It doesnt even say the Lamb is Jesus, Christians just assume..they are his groupies afterall, of course they would assume that.

            Yes youve said I am like your sister previously, so you know its imposdible to wind me up, I just laugh at it all. But do wish you had some faith! Haha.
            Take care,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Faith is the worst thing people can have. It’s a terrible thing – unless the word is used to mean “trust.” Otherwise faith simply means pretending to know things you don’t know.

            I’m not trying to save souls. There are no souls to be saved, only minds. Immaterial things cannot affect our natural world. If souls exist, they are moot, and our minds, memories, etc. do not go along with them, as they cannot persist without the particles that produced them.

            You are correct that I don’t want people to be conned by religionists of any and all flavors including yours and CwG, which despite Neale’s protests, is a religion of sorts.

            There is no heaven to know anything about. I was joking. Heaven as I understand it, is either the most boring place imaginable, or we are simply zombies with no awareness, in which case, we wouldn’t be who we are now, so who cares… Your ancestors didn’t believe in heaven for anyone but their god. People, good and bad alike, went to Sheol, a place of permanent unconsciousness. At the end of time they were to be wakened and judged. If they were good they were to be rewarded with a new garden paradise, and if not then Yahweh would simply destroy them. This, at least was a popular view at the time of Jesus. I think many Jews today believe when they die, they simply die – the same thing most atheists and agnostics think. The Christian version, of course, is absolutely horrendous by comparison, as it depicts the most evil god imaginable.

          • Kirsten

            Hi ya,
            I stand corrected..I used the term faith when I meant trust. House has flooded 4x in two weeks, and Im done. Assessors at the house now, Im at work…if they want the minimise claims then its their problem, Im sure theyre having fun right now bailing water from the front of my house as we’re still in a cycle of torrential rain, unheard of in March with drains snd storm water drains that just cant take it. A friend is much worse off, they have their neighbourhoods raw sewage over their entire property. Floating turds and tampons…nice!! Thats faith and trust, God knows Im at my limits, so for today its someone elses problem, not mine!!

            The term saving souls is just a saying, although our souls are our thinking minds snd personality. Ive left my body and travelled to some other realm, i was still me as someone lifted me but I was a light ball of energy, just me with my thinking mind and personality that formed a copy of my body wen I got there (not a dream, I was wide awake). Awkward going to a meeting type of complex in your pjs, but I zoomed back to my body as soon as I saw all the round cameras, and a guy came up asking if I was ….. …..? No I didnt imagine it, but it was more like a hotel foyer with offices off than a Heaven. But anyway, saving souls is the common term for saving people, acting in their best interests etc. But you know that!!!

            Yes, CwG meets the criteria for a religion, the worship of a god or diety, and also a cult since it has one leader, who offers ‘their’ followers immortality although it is a generalisation. Plus the classic word bamboozling. Neale can say all he wants, but dictionarys are the ones who define what a word means!!! Christianity is a cult, Jesus screwed up in saying he would offer immortality to those who believe in him and God as his father. Note God earlier said when Jesus is naughty he gets a whipping, even if by human hands. Why would God say that if hes a good boy??? He was whipped soon after saying that, and removed from Earth. Food for thought, but I do ‘know” I actually like the guy, unlike his mother whom I ‘know’ I dont like. ‘Knowing’ is something proven to me over and over my entire life, most Piscies have this, I trust it completely. I don”t tend to trust Christians, they blatantly go against the OT and fill heads with lies, especially Catholics, so whats their point? Why voluntarily join an organisation, that clearly states they will face judgements, then do those very things it says they will face consequences for? And Jesus said not to sign a contract with God unless you intend to honour it. If they arent serious about it its one heck of an expensive hobby and social club.

            Its fine to believe in whatever you believe in, but my point is that if you are completely wrong and do face God for judgements, then dissing God, religion and everything you personally dont believe in is dangerous.

            And no…before you bring it up, I dont live in fear of God or judgements at all, I havnt done anything He forbids (other than eat bacon), nor anything else in scripture that says ‘woe to you…’ so it, and Heaven are nothing I ever think about. Im fine with mortality anyway, Id rather be mortal than end up in Heaven with born again Christians and serious people. Thats my idea of Hell.
            Ill hold out for an Eden, an upgrade from Heaven, where all defined wrong is banned, so there is no wrong at all. The terms right and wrong arent even used, since with wrong being forbidden and only righteous people permitted, there is nothing to define as good or right, its all just normal. Plus an Eden is a physical place, Heaven could just be a headspace or mental state. But Ill have to convince God first that he needs tl switch from Heaven to Eden with me, Ill take my trust and faith with me thanks, in the form of God. Its all I know.
            Take care,
            K

          • Kirsten

            My real answer wont show up in here, Im screened, but you should receive it as an email alert.
            Take care,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            I did get a response in email that doesn’t show up here. I think I know what happens. If you have multiple theglobalconversation (TGC) windows or tabs open and respond in an older one that has been updated with new posts, it may not display. You have to use the most current window or tab. Best solution, I think is to close all the open TGC windows and tabs and make sure you are on the most current. I’ve had this problem before as well, but not since I closed any extra window/tabs.

            I’m going to respond to just one of the things you said, which is: “Its fine to believe in whatever you believe in, but my point is that if you are completely wrong and do face God for judgements, then dissing God, religion and everything you personally dont believe in is dangerous.”

            I don’t understand why it would be “dangerous.” My understanding of the OT (which I have read more than once) and Judaism is that everyone goes to Sheol when they die, and most Jews think they are dead, dead, dead. Some Jews think at the end of time they will be wakened and judged. Those who were “good,” whatever that means, will be rewarded with a new garden paradise – Eden; yes, a physical Eden. Those who are not good are simply destroyed. Fair enough. Where’s the danger – that I’ll be awakened and then quickly destroyed? What’s the difference? So what.

            The concept of eternal torment in the Abrahamic religions is a Christian invention (Islam jumped all over it too). This is the “good news” of Jesus and Christianity – eternal torment if you don’t measure up, instead of simply being destroyed. Of course this makes Christianity the most evil religion with the most evil god, ever imagined. The bible speaks of proportionate justice, but to send a mere human who lives but a handful of decades to millions an billions and trillions of endless years of torture and torment is about the most evil thing any human mind has ever conceived of.

            I don’t understand the threat of danger, since I’ll either be dead, which is exactly what I expect, or I’ll be awakened in a billion years or so, judged and then go back to being dead again; only this time destroyed so I can never be awakened again. That does not cause me much angst, though I’m not happy about being wakened – just leave me dead Yahweh! I’m good with that. No muss, no fuss.

            I’m confused that you would suggest I might be in danger. That’s not how I understand your god.

          • Gross Prophet

            Of course it’s never entered your mind that, while ‘challenging someone’s beliefs’ you are also (consistently, and by nature) coming across like a pompous, arrogant a-hole, and that THAT is why you receive what you perceive as ‘hostility’.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Wanting to be right means you also have to accept and understand when you are wrong. Anything else is just sheer stubborness.” That I can agree with. In order to learn that I was wrong about all this god, soul, afterlife stuff, I had to learn some science. I had to understand that there is simply no way for immaterial things to affect the particles in our natural world. Something would have to move the air to turn the mobile in your room, and that something would be a measurable force that scientists could identify – there are no such forces.

  • mewabe

    When a belief in God is rooted in fear (a fear of life or death or the “devil”), it is not healthy, and it is not spiritually mature.

    When a belief in the divine has love, inner peace and gratitude for foundation, it is much more beneficial and definitively more adult.

    Most religious beliefs have fear as a foundation. Spiritual understanding, on the other hand, springs from love…a love for and gratitude towards all life, all of creation.

    Now read this with a new pair of eyes: “It feels good to me to believe that someone “has my back,” that someone is “there for me,” that someone is supporting me, empowering me, uplifting me, protecting me, and embracing me.”

    Can you see the sadness inherent in such a statement? All of these things should come from us, humans to humans. We should be “having each other’s back”, we should “be there for each other”, we should be supporting, empowering, protecting and embracing each other. That’s what love does.

    The tragedy of the world and the mistake of humanity is that, for the most part, we don’t. And asking God to do it for us is basically akin to refusing to take responsibility for our failures, refusing to grow into love, and asking God to fix what we won’t mend ourselves.

    This is the way of children. Are we children?

    • Spiritual_Annie

      mewabe,

      Would it make a difference if there was no personification? If it were that the universal energy will always co-create with you, and will always co-create with the energy you put in to it, never failing to do so, supporting you, empowering you, embracing you as and with unconditional love? Or if it were Nature? The Universe? The All is One?

      I ask because that’s how I substituted automatically when I first read it–taking the personification out. That’s just me…

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • mewabe

        Yes Annie that’s an interesting point…but the fact remains that we, as humans, shouldn’t ask the universe to do for us what we should be doing ourselves, such as supporting, empowering and loving each other unconditionally.

        The non-personal nature, called the Tao in some traditions, does not bend to our will to fulfill all of our whims and egotist desires as many religious individuals expect their personal God to do (they trade with their God: I have been a good boy so now I expect this or that reward, the ultimate reward being “heaven”)…on the contrary we must cooperate with it and understand its ways, not because the Tao is a boss or a lord, on the contrary because only by becoming one with the universe can we understand and fulfill our own true nature.

      • Patrick Gannon

        What universal energy? How does it affect the particles that make up the neurons, synapses, nerve cells, connectome, electrochemicals, hormones in our brains, all of which are responsible for what we as humans create in our natural world? This force would have to somehow affect our particles, as we’ve discussed before. You are proposing a force for which no evidence exists, and which the probabilities of quantum mechanics rule out with a very high degree of probability.

        Why can’t we take credit for the forces and capabilities that are in our very own brains? I think we have more amazing capabilities locked up in our brains than we know about. I’m reading a book called “Stealing Fire” that is about “flow” or how to get into states that let us operate at much higher degrees of efficiency, creativity, productivity, etc. These things come from within us.

        • Jethro

          Universal energy… ever return a smile to someone that smiled at you. That’s a fair example. So is the anger that is returned to you when expressing anger.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Those are reactions that result from body language, voice, mannerisms, words, etc.. There is no external force responsible for them, Jethro.

          • Jethro

            I know that. But it’s what some refer to as energy. It’s how some develop an understanding of things. All of it is merely a word game. Once we understand something conceptually the words become either a poor or excellent description of a persons understanding. This is why so many arguments occur. We become frustrated by not being able to express ourselves, or understand another, properly, Every word must be correct to the other persons concepts and that’s impossible. Communication can be impossible sometimes.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I find that if one sticks to a factual, scientific, or dictionary definitions of words, that common ground can be found.

            It is people like Neale who bastardize the language, changing the meanings, capitalizing words to give them some meaning other than what the dictionary says, that leads to all this confusion and lack of communication. HIs methods, like religion, separate and divide.

            ” It feels good to me to believe in a Higher Power; that there exists in the Universe an Essential Essence, a Pure Energy”

            It may feel good – so do some drugs – but there is zero evidence for any “Higher Power” as I assume Neale refers to his god. What is the difference between the “universe” and the “Universe”? The universe does not have an “Essential Essence” or an “essential essence” that has anything to do with our behavior in our natural world. If there is any “essential essence” in the universe, it is vacuum. What is a “Pure Energy”? Dark energy? What does that mean? Is “Pure Energy” different from “pure energy”?

            These words are intended to confuse and obscure the facts, and thus they do not help us communicate better. They create a class of believers who pretend to know things they don’t and another class of people who turn to objective, compelling evidence in order to know what they do and don’t know. Neale drives a wedge between the facts and his fictions – just like religions do – by manipulating words to create confusion and obfuscation.

          • Jethro

            Psychology still has very few ways of defining sanity. We are still deciding people are insane or sane by comparing them to everyone else. So to decide someone is not sane we compare that person to a crowd, or a chosen few or we just use our past experience with other people to decide if someone is mentally ill. Right or wrong mental illness is determined by belief. While your beliefs are not wrong, if you go to a christian church and give your current opinion, they will determine your insane. by comparison, they would be right, by a psychologists standards. They could use a dictionary to determine that too. You too were once a devout christian, what would you then have said to you now? How much would a dictionary have helped. When people find a specific spiritual belief they enjoy, they learn the lingo. The lingo is the catch and it has very little crossover strength.

            So what is energy? best match in my opinion per this conversation. Mental energy or psychic energy is a CONCEPT in some PSYCHOLOGICAL THEORIES or models of a postulated unconscious mental functioning on a level between biology and consciousness. This applies to the smile and anger thing I was talking about. A psychological theory is a scientific theory as psychology is a science of thought which will never produce physical evidence. It’s a science that does not have a mathematical explanation because it is too fluent, too unpredictable… unless your a mentalist maybe, but even a mentalist can be wrong now and then because he/she is guessing with the highest probability mostly. Therefore, a belief has validity merely due to the fact that somebody else says the belief is valid. The more people there are stating the un-provable belief is correct, the more correct the belief. strength in numbers.

            Neale uses capitals to emphasize, there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t make it anymore, or any less, believable. If he were speaking to us rather than writing, he may change something in his speech, over annunciation, speaking louder, or spelling it (I hate that by the way). It just points something out that he feels is important to his thought.

            No facts can be obscured if the believer knows or believes anything to be fact. Have your beliefs been changed by Neale? I have been communicating on this blog for months now and Neale hasn’t effected you a single bit. No magic has occurred obviously. No spells have been cast. You still believe the way you do and you will continue to do so. A part of me understands some of Neale’s stuff and a part of me understands what you say too. I understand Annie and Mewabe. Still working on Marko. I like Kirsten, she’s more like myself. Don’t know Stephen mills very well, but interesting. conspiracy theorist? I don’t know yet. We all love A true friend, I wish he would be honest, that is, say what he believes, not what he doesn’t. This blog is filled with people who don’t believe what Neale says is right, but that doesn’t make them wrong, Neale even stated that above. I can dig that.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Oh Neale affected my beliefs very much, after I abandoned Christianity and read CwG when my sister sent it to me. I became very involved in his movement, and I believed his nonsense like a devout Southern Baptist believes in talking snakes (well, I wasn’t quite that idiotic). I made a mistake though. I discovered Neale through reading and challenging my own beliefs; by intentionally seeking out material to challenge my beliefs, and it was only a matter of time before I discovered that I had simply substituted one set of beliefs for another. Oh it’s a nicer, happier, more feminine god that he sells, but it’s still an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky, and for which no compelling, objective evidence exists – just like Yahweh or Zeus or Poseidon.

            I got over it, and my reason for being here, as well as participating in other Christian blogs is to help others get over these unsupported beliefs as well; or if nothing else (and particularly in the case of the Catholic blog I participate in), to illustrate that it is not only OK, but good to challenge authority, as that authority is clearly wrong in many things. Neale will agree about many of the things wrong with Catholicism, and Catholics will agree about some of the things wrong with Neale’s New Spirituality religion.

            There is no such thing as a mentalist. If the brain had fields or powers that affected material in our natural world we would know it by now. Science freely admits that there are many things it does not know yet, but along with that, there are some things that it knows very well and with complete confidence, and among those are the understanding that immaterial things cannot affect the materials in our natural world. It’s a bold statement, but one that most scientists, particularly particle physicists, stand behind.

            New Age folks like Neale and in particular Deepak Chopra, figured if Quantum Mechanics (QM) was hard, and consciousness was hard, the two must necessarily be related. Turns out they aren’t, though a few researchers continue experiments to confirm this. What QM does do, better than anything else has ever done, is to provide accurate predictions. QM predictions are accurate to a degree that blows scientists minds. QM predicts with a degree of overwhelming confidence, that if there were particles or forces that affected the things in our natural world, we would know about them by now. We are able to describe particles such as the neutrino that are so insignificant that although billions of them are passing through you, none of them affect your particles. If we can know about forces and particles such as neutrinos and determine that they don’t affect our particles, how can something even less material do so? A physicist who puts this in language most of us can understand is Sean Carroll. Watch some of his YouTube videos.

            I’m sorry, but the time has come to accept that all this god stuff is gobbledygook. Instead we need to put our focus into leveraging our fantastic brains to make us smarter, happier, kinder, more efficient, etc. We have within our brains the power to do this, and it’s going to be the next wave of self-improvement, and guess what – no gods are required to reap these benefits.

            I’m pretty sure it was Neale who first introduced me to the concept of “mindfulness.” This training is now being provided to corporations, Navy SEALS, and millions of individuals to improve their lives and their productivity. This is good stuff. Why couldn’t Neale have stuck to things that are real? He could have made just as much money selling mindfulness training and done a lot more good.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Tomorrow’s God does not require anyone to believe in God.
            -NDW

          • Patrick Gannon

            It may not be required, but it sure is encouraged. You may recall the little exchange Neale and I had a few months ago, in which he asserted that atheists and agnostics were “damaging” because they don’t believe. He compared us to sexists and bigots. He rightly pointed out that CwG doesn’t specifically say this, but it is his opinion and he affirmed it.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Yes we all have opinions & they change or they don’t. They are waves on the beach of life,– and some, are simply frozen in rigidity, while others eventually melt.

          • Jethro

            Mentalists are not psychic, They read peoples actions very well and manipulate. It has nothing to do with actually reading minds.

            “”we need to put our focus into leveraging our fantastic brains to make us smarter, happier, kinder, more efficient, etc. We have within our brains the power to do this, and it’s going to be the next wave of self-improvement, and guess what – no gods are required to reap these benefits.”” AMEN… :-) Whoops! That’s very true, and I hope to see some results very soon.

            What Neale is doing is catching the eyes of many. If they can find one thing out of all his gobbledygook that raises them a little higher than they once were… well I’d be happy with that.

          • Jethro

            I find that if one sticks to a factual, scientific, or dictionary definitions of words, that common ground can be found.

            So I’ve tried this while having a discussion with my wife, What a crock!!! I still had to humble myself a bit and end with the inevitable “Yes Dear”.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well wives and girlfriends are some sort of alien species, and normal rules don’t apply. Some postulate that the universe emerged from nothing, but there is no such thing as “nothing.” When we ask them “What’s wrong?” and they say “Nothing,” you KNOW there’s something! It’s like when you ask how they are, and they say, “Fine,” you know you better leave the county for a while. (Just joking, ladies!)

            So, I agree, there is always going to be some confusion with words, but there’s no need to add to the confusion that already exists. On the other hand, it’s easy to tell when Neale is in “sales mode” when he starts capitalizing words, so at least he gives us fair warning…

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Patrick,

          Yes, we’ve discussed this before. I believe that there’s a universal energy that existed before matter, from which all matter originated and by which all matter is sustained. It doesn’t “affect” particles, it is the source of all particles.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well yes, but that could be “string theory,” for example. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the fact that this energy, or these strings, or whatever primordial substance that might exist below the quantum layer, would have to intelligently come together in some measurable fashion in order to affect the particles that make up our natural world.

            You’re going to have to have some scientist postulate a mechanism by which this universal energy is able to have intelligence and the ability to manipulate particles that are layers above it. I know of no such theory.

            What we see in nature is emergence. Quantum emerges (perhaps) from strings, quarks and muons emerge from quantum, atoms emerge from that, molecules from atoms, cells from molecules, nervous systems from cells, and finally consciousness and intelligence from the whole kit and kaboodle beneath it. It doesn’t matter if there is a universal energy, it is moot when it comes to how the particles in our natural world operate.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            “You’re going to have to have some scientist postulate a mechanism by which this universal energy is able to have intelligence and the ability to manipulate particles that are layers above it. I know of no such theory.”

            I don’t need “a scientist” putting forth a theory. I’m more of a mind that this universal energy, from which matter “emerges,” can affect other energies. It could, for example, merge with the energy of my emotions and thereby be affected by them. That, in turn, could affect what “possibilities” (in scientific terms) appear in my reality.

            And, if it didn’t have some kind of intelligence, why would it create matter to begin with?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Whoa – you are asserting that “it” whatever “it” is, created matter. What “it” do you refer to? Where does “it” keep its intelligence? How does it manipulate our particles? You just postulated a god who created matter. We don’t need a god to explain why we have particles in our natural world.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I never said (in fact, I purposely avoid saying) that you or anyone else had to share my beliefs. I find no need to understand how it all works, and didn’t claim to know. Notice the term “could” that I used more than once. Nor did I say that God created matter. I said that I believe that Divine Energy is the energy from which matter emerges and continues to emerge. I don’t need a God to explain why we have particles, either, and have explained before that I personally don’t need to personify Divine Energy.

          • Jethro

            Quantum emerges (perhaps) from strings, quarks and muons emerge from quantum, atoms emerge from that, molecules from atoms, cells from molecules, nervous systems from cells, and finally consciousness and intelligence from the whole kit and kaboodle beneath it…. finally consciousness and intelligence from the whole kit and kaboodle….

            the whole kit and caboodle. You almost went there!! I was reading with complete excitement and then…”the whole kit and caboodle”. It’s like I was taking a bite of my favorite pie and somebody knocked the fork out of my hand!! Consciousness and intelligence or knowledge, where does that originate. What causes That part of the brain to function. Why are we self aware? Are we self aware or is it all an illusion?

            I spent a lot of time in a class room, spent a lot of money to figure this one out and no real answer. We know more about the ocean floor. Human thought is a mystery, we even know what parts of the brain store certain information. Everything you believe my friend is relative to your experiences. Everything you know. Like a criminal is guilty until proven innocent, (yeah I said it) You know what you know until proven otherwise. As it is with anyone you speak with. As it is that you are where you are. People just know what they believe and they believe what they know. It’s the reason for the argument that I refuse to have. It’s the reason Neale says there is not a right or a wrong. A belief is truth to whom ever believes. Your beliefs are beliefs with science backing you so you call it real.

            “””People are spending money on this technology, and that doesn’t happen unless it works.””””
            Like donations to a church?

            “””The valuable stuff like meditation and mindfulness that Neale has promoted, are indeed valuable and useful and may become much more so, given that we aren’t working with immaterial spirit magic, we’re working with real things, real particles, real neurons and brain cells and synapses, and so forth, and these things can be manipulated by real things like chemicals and vibrations, rather than souls, gods and devils, and they can give us real advantages and benefits, apparently.”””
            This tells me that you have merely found what you believe is a better way to find what people have found in the past through a belief in God. Which confirms essentially that you are not out to prove that God does not exist, You are waiting for God to prove himself to you… Again. Something you can argue with FACTS. I could be wrong about all of this. Yeah, I know you like that one. A lack of physical facts do not prove ignorance, it proves that some beliefs do not have physical facts… yet.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Jethro, the best theory to describe self-aware consciousness, in my opinion, is the “attention schema theory” presented by Michael Graziano. His theory, put forth in “Consciousness and the Social Brain” describes a process by which the brain develops an “attention schema” or working outline of all the things contending for the brain’s attention. It manages the flow of information in and out of the brain. Your brain is constantly bombarded by sensory input and a process, like a software application, manages all that.

            Have you ever seen Jeff Dunham and his ventriloquist dummies? Your brain watches his performance and your attention schema “assigns” self-aware consciousness to those inanimate puppets. We do the same thing with TV and movies, and animals, etc. Our brains assign self-aware consciousness to other humans as well. In the same way, we assign self-aware consciousness to ourselves – and that is the “I” or “me” that we experience. It can perhaps best be thought of as a software sub-routine.

            We’re actually learning a heck of a lot about the brain and consciousness, but you have to keep up with scientific journals to know that. It takes a long time for what researchers are learning to leak out to the rest of the population because scientists like to make sure first. All the psi stuff that people talk about on this forum – out of body, near death, precognition, etc. – it all comes out of the brain and not from something outside ourselves. It can’t come from outside ourselves, or we would know it by now.

            Moving through your points – the people who make donations to organizations that profit from belief in imaginary invisible beings that live in the sky, can hardly be compared with investors who are using logic and reason to get a return on their investment! There’s no comparison.

            With regard to the paragraph about Neale, I have never denied the experiences of ONEness and so forth that religious, new age, eastern religions, mystics, and so forth describe, are real. They are real. The issue is that they come from within ourselves, from our own brains (even our bodies, which have neurons), and not from gods, souls, Essential Essences, Universal Energy and all that other capitalized gobbledygook for which there is no compelling, objective evidence – otherwise we wouldn’t be discussing it, would we? I’m not sure what you mean in saying I am waiting for God to prove himself to me. I have no more expectation for that, than I do that unicorns and fairies will prove themselves to me.

          • Jethro

            A BBQ and one too many margaritas spawned that last paragraph. My apologies. Poor sense of humor.

            “Attention schema theory” I copied and pasted that and have booked marked a couple things. I’ll read further. I agree, keeping up with a lot of things would be beneficial, i chose another profession otherwise I would be required to keep up. I’ll catch up on the consciousness or awareness articles anyway. Thank you. If they can make sense of that part of the brain that deals with ideals and computation of experiences and know for a fact how it functions and manipulate it without years of treatment, it will be nearing the last frontier. You have shared Jeff Dunham before. Thinking that I assigned self awareness to myself or to another human who is aware sounds like a bit of a grasp and I, sort of, get it, but I get the part where we fool ourselves with Jeff’s dummies. Maybe I’ll get a better understanding after I read a bit.

            If they can figure out how to manipulate that part of our brain controlling beliefs, it would be amazing, and I’m terrified at the thought that we could manipulate that part of us instantly. No more prisons, No insane asylums… but how could it be abused? I hope they can and I hope they never will.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            How can it “not matter” that the energy from which the emergence begins exists and continues to be the basis for all things? There wouldn’t be anything for an energy to act upon without it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Unless this “energy” has some method of organization that allows it to intelligently make decisions about influencing particles in our natural world, it would be moot. The intelligence emerges at the end of the chain, not the beginning. How could it be otherwise?

            Like I said, it makes sense that there is a layer below the quantum layer, which as we all know is postulated to be strings at this time; but how does a vibrating string or some other energy intelligently decide to manipulate the particles in your brain in order to create some psi or healing effect, for example, without us being aware of it, given that we understand all the things that can and do manipulate particles?

            While we can label almost anything as “possible,” QM tells us that our core theory is correct, and that a theory that completely overturns our understanding of physics and the results of untold numbers of experiments, while possible, is so improbable as to be unworthy consideration – about the same odds as a pink, polka dotted hippo manifesting in your living room this evening. QM says it could happen. It also tells us, “don’t hold your breathe.”

            Did you finish “The Big Picture?” Hope you’re doing OK in Largo. As I recall, this is a nice time of year, but they’ve had some forest fires in FL because it’s usually dry this time of year.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            We’ve had a lot of “red flag” (fire) warnings, but I don’t much watch the news anymore. It’s beautiful gardening and sitting outside weather, but living in a mobile home (think tin can) I’ve already had to start using the “window shakers” by late afternoon. I haven’t finished the book yet, though I work it in when I can. It’s going to take more than one listen to pull it all together as I’ve been distracted by life.

            Why does it have to be a chain? I see it as cyclical, as so many things are. Matter may not only emerge from energy but return to it, completing the cycle.

            When I comment here, I do so as I am, not as someone who’s got all the answers. I don’t necessarily know the details about how it all works, but nobody does. I share my beliefs, my opinions, and things I think are possible. To query me for details or proofs is probably going to get you another belief, opinion or possibility in reply. (“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t” was Mama’s way, which I transformed into “overwhelm with the awe of possibilities.”)

            According to probabilities, I should be dead, in prison, addicted or a prostitute. I have reason to believe in possibilities, not just probabilities.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            We’ve had several “red flag” fire warnings, but I don’t watch the local news. The weather has been great for gardening and sitting outside. But I live in a trailer (think tin can) and have had to start using the “window shakers” by late afternoon.

            I haven’t finished the book yet. It’s going to take more than one go-through to make it cohesive because life keeps interrupting.

            Why is it a chain? I see it as cyclical, like many other natural patterns. If matter converts back to Divine Energy, that completes the cycle.

            When I comment here, I comment from who I am, and I’m certainly not someone with all the answers to how it all works. No one does. I post my beliefs, my opinions, and possibilities. When you ask me for specifics, you’re likely to get more beliefs, opinions, and possibilities.

            According to probabilities, I should be dead, in prison, addicted or a prostitute. I have good reason to believe in possibilities.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Where does the intelligence come from? Without intelligence, who cares – this force or energy or god or soul or whatever it is, has absolutely no effect on our natural world.

  • Jethro

    Life should be sacred, a happy life is our goal. Each person will seek the way to that happiness by whatever means possible.
    It feels good to me to believe that people will seek and achieve that happiness, not only for themselves, but for others as well. It feels good to me to believe that a person can fearlessly believe however they wish to achieve that happiness, that all spiritual beliefs are the personal tools of each individual in which they develop the ability create that happiness. Not only for themselves but for all life. It feels good to me to believe that I was born in a place where I have the freedom to choose the beliefs that work best for me, to be able to develop an understanding that leads me to believe that all life is important. ALL LIFE.

    It feels bad to me to believe that humanity is working so hard to spread hatred for things that are not understood. It feels bad to me to believe that people are thinking they have the only belief that works because it works for them. It feels bad to me to believe that with billions of individuals on earth with so many acceptable differences, that spirituality is the one difference that is attacked the most, that people use their spirituality as a reason for attacking another. It feels bad to me to believe that so many spiritual beliefs are based on an expression of love and understanding, then used to spread hate and confusion.

    I have scratched the surface of many different beliefs. Some have ceremonies that include group sex, some sacrifice some form of life, some sacrifice self to some form of personal suffering. I do not need to create any of these actions to find personal inner peace, Given time, we will naturally have sex, naturally lose a loved one to death and most certainly experience a suffering produced by ourselves or some outside source. Given time, we will learn from those happenings without creating them and not because we “now feel we are ready”. Life is the process in which we learn and it’s most effective when it happens on life’s terms. While I know I have bashed another for their beliefs and opinions, just recently, I know that it didn’t do me any good nor the person I was bashing. It feels bad to me to believe that I couldn’t let another human, experience that process of life that will ultimately help them, arrive at the understanding that serves them best.

    Our differences do not have to create divisions, our contrasts do not have to create conflicts, and the variations in our beliefs do not have to create violence in our lives.

    • Patrick Gannon

      “a happy life is our goal.”

      Why? Why is this a valuable goal?

      We live in a time when the search for happiness has taken center stage. TV shows, books, movies, websites, programs, CDs, constantly offer pointers on how to finally achieve and sustain the elusive happiness state of being. Neale here, peddles his “happy spiritual drugs” as his contribution.

      What if there was a drug that would make you completely happy but remove any interest you might have in actually accomplishing something useful, other than simple survival? What if, from the outside, you led a boring life, like being on a treadmill, but inside you were blissfully happy, with imaginary romantic escapades and challenging adventures, but you never accomplished anything meaningful. Would you take the drug?

      Think of the people we admire, such as Socrates, Jesus (assuming he was a real person), Gandhi, Mandela, King, etc. or perhaps Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Beethoven, Shakespeare, etc. Is “happy” the first word that comes to mind in describing these people? Surely they were happy, from time to time, but “happiness” is not their defining characteristic, is it?

      Perhaps we put too much emphasis on happiness, forgetting that life is a process defined by activity and motion, and instead searching for that one perfect state of being. There can be no such state, because change is the very essence of life. At the end of the day, or the end of your life, how much does it matter that you were happy much of the time? Wouldn’t you rather have a good story to tell?

      (Paraphrasing Sean Carroll in “The Big Picture”).

      • Jethro

        Do we wish to achieve peace then, maybe a good life? What word could we use to say we are satisfied with life on that last day? I’m not very picky. I’m sure I don’t want to look at “the big picture” and think, “Damn, that sucked!” Or I coulda, shoulda, woulda, which I do anyway from my lacking of knowing a better way. I’m learning still and honestly more satisfied with life. I’m happy with that or we can use which ever word you like to better describe that emotion.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Achieving peace is a valid goal. Happiness is a side product. Learning is a valid goal, happiness is a side product.

          I’m just questioning the validity of making “happiness” the goal. That’s what New Age is certainly selling, but is it truly attainable as a goal, or can we only truly get it as a side benefit of some more meaningful and important goal?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            I’m not sure that happiness can “only” be gotten “as a side benefit of some more meaningful and important goal.”

            Watching butterflies, holding babies, smelling a patch of lavender, watching a sunrise, snuggling with my miniature schnauzer… These are all things that bring me happiness yet take so little time. There’s plenty left over for happiness as a side benefit.

            And who decides what’s “more meaningful and important?” Hmmm…

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Valid point. We all have to decide for ourselves what is meaningful and important. The question is whether we pursue things that are meaningful and important, however we define that, or whether we pursue happiness for its own sake.

          • Jethro

            Faking happiness isn’t really happiness. Only the person who says they are happy knows the truth. I’ve met many people who said they were happy whom I felt was lying about it, but it’s not for me to be concerned after doing all I could to help. i can still be happy/satisfied that I did… something. Even if just a smile.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            And my point was that there are moments of happiness that take little or no effort or time, making them worth it to me, even while I pursue what is meaningful and important to me, which is to feel unconditional love and compassion for all existence through a Spiritual path.

          • Jethro

            Happiness is a by product of things going well. So when I say the goal is ultimately to be happy, the goal is to have things go well, to be satisfied with the outcome of any endeavor.

            I’m not being unrealistic with that statement. I don’t expect sunshine and daisies in every moment of every day. As Mewabe stated concerning creative expression, I’m very critical of my work and rarely satisfied with it, But When my customer is extremely satisfied and hands me a check for services rendered…. I’m happy! I’m also a little wealthier in more ways than one,

            It may have taken a lot of foul language to get there but I’m happy. The thing is I’m also happy to do the work, I enjoy what I do, maybe I enjoy getting angry, things not going right, never having the right materials available, removing skin and puncturing my hands. You work on homes and know what I mean. When it’s all said and done, I’m looking forward to the next one. I’m just Happy to do it. Maybe it’s the challenge.

      • mewabe

        The “pursuit of happiness” is actually detrimental when happiness is obtained by choosing denial. And in our present day world, and especially in North America, some form of denial or evasion is the primary choice of most. I would rather pursue truth, knowledge and understanding, healing, and creative expression.

        Interestingly, creative expression can be a torment…most creative individuals see their talents as both a blessing and a curse…a curse because you are never satisfied for very long with your work, unless you are mediocre and full of hot air.

        Did you know that the “pursuit of happiness”, which has become a sort of obsession in this nation, was originally written as “the pursuit of property”?
        Because this sounded too much like theft, given the fact that such property originally belonged to Native Americans, the meaning was changed.

        I agree, happiness should be allowed to come and go. Seeking a constant state of anything is a bit unrealistic, as the only constant is change. Even what is called the “soul”, if it does exist, must change…if it has anything resembling life and energy in it.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          When you’re truly at peace you can be happy even when your not.

          • mewabe

            Yes, when peace comes from acceptance…no longer struggling to get our way against all odds.
            Peace comes from understanding the way of nature, of the universe…and rising with the crest of the wave, and going down with the trough.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    I’ve been informed by our local bookstore that Neale’s new book has been pushed back to March 27th for it’s release. It’s only one more week. I’m very excited to get it!

    • Stephen mills

      Hi Marko getting a copy the morrow ,I’m in Scotland (uk) .Its getting some great reviews .

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Lucky you!

        • Stephen mills

          Your going love this one Marko ; right up your street mind expanding reaching the parts other books cant reach !!!

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Thanks, can’t wait!

  • mewabe

    Some random comments about negativity are propelling me to once again attempt to convey a message that is the exact opposite of what is spread out there, both by traditional religion and new age religion, which are actually very close.

    First of all, there are no dark forces, and there is no real negativity. Secondly, the way to overcome fear or any other form of so-called “negativity” is not to say “no” but to face it and embrace it completely and heal its source, which is within you.

    You alone can face and heal your own demons…and understand their origin, which is deep within your own psyche. In order to do this you have to walk through your own self-created “hell”, face your very own, personal “devil”, and embrace and heal all of the destructive creations of your own unconscious and subconscious. You cannot say “no” to those…they will keep showing up again and again until you face them and understand them to be what they are: the products of your own misunderstood suffering and of your own judgment, from this life or (possibly?) past lives.

    The so-called negative people who trigger your negativity (your anger, fear, shame, guilt) do so as does all that appears negative to you, acting as a perfect and clear mirror: they reflect what needs healing within you, what is fragmented and unknown about yourself to your conscious mind. Thank them, as they are actually helpers and necessary to your growth! When you are completely healed, they will never again show up in your life, as you will no longer need them, being at peace, clear-minded, one in heart, mind, body and spirit, and fearless.

    Remember this as well, although it is a minor point: as weeds flourish in poor soils, and bad bacteria and parasites multiply in an unhealthy gut, so does what appears to be outer parasitic negative energies feed on your own negativity. Their role is to wake you up to your own spiritually unhealthy condition, and again to pinpoint what specifically needs healing within you such as fear, rage, guilt, etc. Welcome these things as healing opportunities rather than an outside threat! Learn to use universal laws, as help is all around you!

    And don’t be confused: you cannot heal by denial, by saying no, by pushing things out of your way or out of your mind: you must embrace, feel, express, integrate, understand, until you become one within yourself and one with the universe.

    • Jethro

      Thats not what I posted

      • mewabe

        I know…I was inspired by a video I listened to about some “channeled” (bogus) information on fear, as well as a comment by Marko about internet trolls.

        • Jethro

          I had sat down this morning and read your post. I started responding to your post as I woke up more and more I began re-reading and changing things because I simply didn’t like the way it sounded. out of eight or nine paragraphs I chose two that sounded half way intelligent. when I hit post, everything went nuts and it posted something I began with. Anyway, If you received some gibberish… That’s not what I posted.

          • Kirsten

            Hahahaha.
            By talking to me you caught the special curse in here, that damn non existant moderator spying on you……theyve upped the anti now, rewriting non approved posts into gibberish.
            Damn they’re good.. or is it still just you??
            Take care, K

          • Jethro

            It was’t me, Batman showed up on the screen and said fatal error, I hit the back button and read a little, hit post and stuff i didn’t want to post posted, I hit edit and wrote I didn’t post that. It was my writing, it just was’t the message I wanted to send. I made change after change to finally get it right. I’m trying to write things so that it doesn’t look like I’m arguing or calling anyone wrong. It would appear that I’ve not been a very good communicator. I been talking to my wife several times and got a response from her that made me wonder what in the world did I say? Or how did she get that out of what I said? Anyway, I have a chance to correct all of that while I’m writing and not talking.

    • Patrick Gannon

      I am reading a book (listening on audible when I run), called “Stealing Fire.” It is the next step after “mindfulness” I think. It’s the scientific exploration of the feelling that many here have described. They even have an acronym for it:

      STER, Selflessness, timelessness, effortlessness and richness of information. That describes several of what I would have formerly called “spiritual experiences.” I’m not sure what to call them now. It’s being “in the flow.” I’m only partway through the book, and it feels a little like an infomercial given that the authors started a business that is intended to develop ways to produce STER on demand. It all comes out of the brain, and it seems there’s a lot more there waiting for us.

      I’ll report back later after I finish it, but this may be the beginning of the end for New Age, and possibly legacy religion. If we are able to create enhanced meditation techniques, biofeedback mechanisms, micro-dosing, and so forth in order to give people all the things religion and New Age only promise, then indeed, there is a new era in human evolution on the cusp. They claim to be able to let people achieve states in 6 weeks that meditating monks spend decades learning to accomplish.

      Something that confirms to me that this is a real phenomena is news I received in one of my newsletters from the Monroe Institute last week. Monroe was the guy who popularized OoBs back in the 70s and one of the first to do real research into psi phenomenon. In recent years the Institute had become very “New Age” with all the soul and god and same sort of language Neale uses, and seemed to have moved away from its scientific roots. Well, the company was just bought out in order to license the scientific part – “Hemi-Sync” is a real technology that puts different frequencies into each ear as part of a meditation session, and creates a third frequency in the brain, and this apparently helps the two parts of the brain to work together, which is why Hemi-Sync meditation is more successful than many others. The new company is called Hemi-Sync.

      The new website eliminated almost all the New Age junk and changed the focus back to the technology. There’s still some New Age stuff there, but the focus has clearly changed. I suspect that they will go after a different market, like professionals and athletes, yet continue with artists, but do it with science instead of beliefs.

      That this is happening tells me this is a real thing going on here. People are spending money on this technology, and that doesn’t happen unless it works. The valuable stuff like meditation and mindfulness that Neale has promoted, are indeed valuable and useful and may become much more so, given that we aren’t working with immaterial spirit magic, we’re working with real things, real particles, real neurons and brain cells and synapses, and so forth, and these things can be manipulated by real things like chemicals and vibrations, rather than souls, gods and devils, and they can give us real advantages and benefits, apparently. It’s pretty exciting, but it pretty much confirms that that magic stuff isn’t needed any longer and it’s time to let it go. That’s gonna be tough, because without the magic stuff, we have to accept that this is all we get. What they say though, is that this stuff can remove those sorts of fears.

      This might be the real “storm before the calm.” (Of course the calm could also come about when/if we go extinct!)

      If you google the book on Amazon and scroll down, you’ll find a short video of Jason Silva, an utterly amazing guy who hosts “Brain Games” giving an overview. He is one of those rare individuals who has figured out how to live “in the flow” and you can tell just listening to him. He might be described as a “master” by Neale, except that Jason understands that there are no gods and souls and all that magic stuff Neale and other religions insist on.

      This could turn out to be just another generation of New Age mumbo jumbo, but so far, it’s pretty interesting, and the people who have been attracted to it aren’t your garden variety gurus; but rather real, successful, innovative, game changing folks who are changing our world.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        “They claim to be able to let people achieve states in 6 weeks that meditating monks spend decades learning to accomplish.”

        What your dealing with is more bullsh*t here. The same stuff you claim with belief in God or CwG . Hemi-Sync. may be helpful on some level. But if it really worked with minimum or even a degree of effort, everybody would be using it. This has been around for awhile.

        That said if you find it really works, I would consider it.

        Some people awaken in a moment. Like Byron Katie. But for most it’s a gradual pace. We all desire to speed our spiritual growth. For me the fastest way is when the collective as a whole is at peace. That’s not us at the moment. So our work & play is often (not always) more trying & takes a lot of effort.

        • Patrick Gannon

          First, note “they claim,” not “I claim.” I am not asking anyone to believe anything. If I led you to think I “believed” in this, when I haven’t even finished the book, then my writing was poor. I’m intrigued by it. I know that the phenomenon is real; I’ve experienced it myself and would love to do it on demand or even live in that zone; so of course I’m interested. Particularly since it apparently doesn’t required “magic.”

          I have one meditation session I bought from Monroe that is based on hemi-sync, and it does seem to work better. The problem is that it’s too long for the amount of time I generally have available, so I don’t listen to it very often, and I usually have to stop mid-session. There are bills to pay.

          I too remain skeptical, but these are highly influential organizations working with this. The average Navy SEAL costs $500,000 to train, and the millions in losses they incur each year when these guys wash out, is their motivation. They don’t wash out for physical reasons after the first training – they wash out when they are unable to get into that “flow” with their team. The Navy is looking for people who can work together “in the flow” and any technology that can provide that is of great interest to them (and us as taxpayers!). Google and other high tech companies are also implementing tools. Elon Musk is a big fan.

          I think much of the research is going into biofeedback devices that help you attain these states faster and more easily. I hope to learn more as I continue to read the book, and perhaps I was premature in mentioning it before completing it. It’s not often something excites me like that, right out of the gate.

          The hemi-sync stuff has been around, as you say, but it was treated as New Agey stuff and probably not taken as seriously as perhaps it is now. More research may lead to better techniques.

          • mewabe

            I will take a look at this…”Selflessness, timelessness, effortlessness and richness of information”, I have experienced these things often and spontaneously in the creative process, and experience them more and more every day, even in the midst of situations that others would find extremely stressful, such as handling a thousand things at a time (house renovations, multiple and very quick deadlines on multiple projects in my work, etc…and the best way to describe it would be that I have found my center, my equilibrium, spontaneously, without any effort or control whatsoever, and cannot be thrown into inner or outer chaos. The benefit is that everything I do and encounter falls “magically” into place…in “flow”.

            Again, Taoists taught what in the west is described as “flow”, being in sync…while Zen taught spontaneity, effortlessness. These have been part of my path ever since I was 15 years old.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I just stumbled on a brief video by one of the authors. Google “robby berman the scientific reason flow obliterates time.”

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            This is a fascinating topic guys, I love flow & being in the zone. I’d like to discuss further & enjoyed Mewabe’s post on what he does to get there.

          • mewabe

            Thanks Patrick I will check it out!

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Well hey, I almost went the the Monroe institute in the 90’s and all this stuff is intriguing to be sure. So far with out having a lighting bolt awakening or being born with a rather peaceful enlightened disposition, it’s usually a long journey.

            There are quicker ways & gratitude is one way. Once you establish gratitude on a regular basis, you move into appreciation where gratitude has taken root & is so established, you don’t need to use gratitude as a technique, as grand & important as it is in the beginning,– you are there all or much of the time. You are now living in appreciation. You merely tweak when needed.

            When bad stuff happens as we define it, we can appreciate with child like wonder what positive outcome will result. That softens the harsh condemnatory energy and allow more of the flow zone to come in & continue.

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Negativity is our divine friend. It shows up as a speedier way to our peace. It’s a short cut to course correction. It gives us a contrast to show us what we really desire. Except for trauma & abuse etc. Our dark natures are not near as bad as we often make them. A lot of little stuff that we make into big stuff.

      I had a dream last night that I was in our driveway at night & a bunch of college kids where coming at me & I was worried I was going to be mugged, beaten etc. What happen is they threw some t-shirts at me. I saw a keyboard on it & it was simply on ad for a band. To me it was making to much of something only to find it was not bad at all.

      The same can be for our dark side. That said I don’t want to minimize the dark night of the soul, trauma, abuse etc. But beyond that, often our dark side is not that dark but many small things that add up. Facing it is good. But sometimes we make more out of it and dramatize & awefulize it to exaggeration.

      That said, many feel suffering is the real or only way to wake us up. I disagree, I don’t need to grow through suffering. I prefer to have fun and use wisdom & foresight to grow. It’s not as popular as the suffering, but it’s my preferred path.

      • mewabe

        Yes the mind alone, being restless by nature, makes mountains out of mole hills. When we embrace our so-called dark side rather than attempting to run away from it or trying to chase it away (impossibilities), we find that it is nothing more than a simple expression of pain that can easily and quickly be released.

        All these words (negative and positive, light and dark) are charged with some form of mental judgment. Without judgment, there is nothing but pure energy.

        There is no learning or growth through suffering, only the illusion of learning, running in circles within the mind’s creations. Who is learning in such a situation, the real self or the person? The person or personality is a creation of the mind…the real self cannot be hurt, being as the space within a room: even if or when the room crumbles, the space is not affected.

        Joy is the outcome of every successful spiritual journey! But it can also be the medium and the journey itself…

      • Kirsten

        Hi Marko,
        If you havnt seen it, watch tbe movie The Purge. That will give you nightmares about college kids….and people as a whole!
        Take care,
        K

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          I don’t watch horror movies.

      • Katrina Chase

        I have had some experiences of walking in the darkness to shine THE LIGHT. And my reality is that i didnt have any belief in the devil or any spiritual warfare. Experiences have enlightened me and God has protected me and uses me in the spiritual warfare which is not of the esh but against the principalities in this present darkness..and i am feeling a push that it is time to tell everyone HERE I AM let me share my testimory

        • Kirsten

          Hi Katrina,
          Im not a CwGer, but do share your testimony in here. Few, if any, will reply but there are always quite a few ‘observers’ who will read it.
          When you said you were struggling to find out how to join, what does that mean? Neale has a different CwG website I think as well. In here? This is just random strangers typing stuff, although Marko, Mewabe and myself have been in here for many years, all for different reasons. Type away.
          Take care,
          K

          • Jethro

            random strangers typing stuff? I thought we were all good buddies typing important stuff!? :-) Speaking of… my membership is almost up!! What a long strange trip it’s been….

          • Kirsten

            Haha…I was being polite using the term strangers rather than saying random strange people. You caught me out. You non existant moderators are damn good to spot that. Im the non existant meet and greet new people, since ghe non existant moderators dont!!
            Maybe some people type important stuff, I have no idea since I dont read much of it, I certainly dont. Heck, my determination of importance is light years away from here. Right now its watching a deep psycho catbite thats swollen cos Dr Google said I could need an amputation and even die if I dont get to the ED NOW!! Counting if ive made enough crochet flowers for a dress yet, trying to work if the original General Lee car was orange or just a dull red, trying to decide if I want a coffee or not, pondering how many cicadas are actually trying to mate today, sounds like a thousand and watching a fly buzz around cos it can smell my roast cooking. Now those things are really important!!!!!!! Patrick will be pleased, I am a liar afterall…I do type important stuff, I lied. And I will even watch People are Strange on youtube…the CwG anthem. Good buddies, Ill give you that.
            Now you tell me I need a membership…grrr! Let me guess, I cut down 43 trees to print 8 CwG books, buy them all and I get a free 12 month membership to Global Conversation. And then only on a technicality since Im not American…a global site needs one token foreigner at a time to be legit?
            Strange trip here…yip. Watch those mushrooms and cookies being fed to ya.
            Take care,
            K

          • Jethro

            Lol, Random strange people! You found me out! Nothing that we read is important. It’s what we think we understand about it that really counts. There’s a time for being careful. and a time to every purpose under the heaven. So the Byrds took their Turn, Turn, Turn.
            Psycho cat bites are the worst!! they have you frantically searching the internet for non existent cures. grab the damage with the apposing hand, say three curse words of your choice and look away from it. It will begin to heal immediately. Though it may take a couple weeks.
            Orange depending on your set, or maybe a dull red. Now you you have ME wondering! Random strange people strike again.
            I didn’t say anyone needed a membership… just that mine is about to expire. I’m sure it’s a rumor.
            People are strange, some doors are strange, the absence of hinges and jambs, never open or closed, been a lot of places but lead nowhere. yet they’re on you tube…hmmm. Speaking of mushrooms and strange trips.
            one token foreigner, that is kind, at a time to be legit. yup yup yup.

            Cookies and milk it is, nearing bedtime here. Chocolate chip, made from scratch!

          • Kirsten

            I like the Doors People are Strange reference…and dont you dare tell me that was a fluke, dont burst my bubble especially with 70s music.
            Yip, most doors are the Road to Nowhere, shut them, say screw you (of course screws are needed), and move on. I might just write the worlds worst play where every word is a song title or reference!! A new agey CwG one. Or maybe a poem just for extra cringe factor.

            Enjoy the milk and cookies,…nice wife date! I thought you were nearly 50 , not nearly 5. Damn kids let loose on the net!!
            Take care,
            K

          • Jethro

            It was no fluke, and if I still had my memory, I would have answered the entire post with song titles and words of songs. I could have 10 years ago. I’m a fan of classic rock. Classic anything actually, it’s a sign of my age. people are strange is, in my opinion, the best song the doors produced. Be sure to post your poem.

            My wife and I work together. its always a date! We get tired of each other now and then but for the most part, I don’t think we would have it any other way. I will never tire of milk and cookies!!! If its my last meal I will pass happy.

  • Spiritual_Annie

    Usually I post fairly quickly to Neale’s columns, but this one made me pause and it took me a bit of time to pull together my own thoughts.

    I’m going to change Neale’s terminology a bit here to suit my own needs because I try to avoid “good” and “bad” statements, even when it comes to how I feel. I’d much rather frame my reply in what I find benefits me by supporting who I choose to be, and what I find blocks me from being who I choose to be. What benefits me generally makes me happier, opens me up and allows me to more easily able to express who I am, while what blocks me generally frustrates me, depresses me and makes it more difficult to express who I am.

    I find it beneficial for me to believe in a Divine Energy that is the source and sustenance of all physical reality, which is intelligent and creative, and decided to experience itself in all the varieties and nuances possible. I don’t generally personify Divine Energy, but there are times when it benefits me to do so. I found it beneficial as a child to envision Jesus as someone to whom I could pray for relief from my circumstances. There are times when I’m hurting or grieving that I envision an older maternal Goddess who nurtures me. I think that Divine Energy has the capacity to be anything or anyone that serves each of us in our relationship with it.

    I find it beneficial for me to believe that I am a triune being, consisting of my physical being (including my mind), my Soul, and Divine Energy, acting in concert for the benefit of all three. As a spiritual being in a physical body, this physical life provides me with opportunities to grow and mature in unconditional love and compassion towards all of this physical existence within this lifetime. As a Soul, my agenda is to support my growth into the next grandest version of the greatest vision I hold about who I am, especially by communing through meditation and direct connection. As Divine Energy, I take in the unique experiences of my physical being and my Soul, adding them to the vast experiences of Divinity as all things in all their permutations. In this way, each part of my triune being changes and evolves.

    I find it beneficial to believe that Divine Energy interacts with my other parts through all types of energy–my thoughts, my words, my actions, my emotions. I find it beneficial to believe that Divine Energy reacts in kind to the energy that I express, co-creating my reality. In this way, I am responsible for my own life and its outcomes rather than being a victim of it. By actively choosing love over fear–by thinking it and saying it and acting on it and feeling it–it’s been my experience that I see it growing in my life. I have found it beneficial to first love myself before loving others. It’s through the continual act of unconditionally loving and feeling compassion for myself, including those parts of me that others might call “dark” or “negative,” that I learn to unconditionally love and feel compassion for others, including those parts I may not agree with or even find pleasant.

    I find I’m blocked by fear when I feel it, paralyzing me from taking action as I first go into a form of emotional dissociation learned in my early childhood. I also learned how to withhold any reaction, then take time to understand what I fear, facing it and feeling it. But in the understanding, facing and feeling of it, I find that I can even unconditionally love and find compassion for its cause. By doing so, I transform fear into love. I feel blocked around anger, both my own and that of others, because I have felt the sting of violence it can instantly produce. Yet even this I now find I can often understand, face and feel, embracing it with the unconditional love and compassion that I am in order to transform it.

    I don’t think I can find better words than Neale uses in his final three paragraphs, with which I agree wholeheartedly. Spirituality is personal and intimate, and no one’s beliefs should be forced upon another. It’s our differences that create the variety that makes life interesting, and need not divide us. Whether we co-create a world that values those differences or one that leads to our destruction because we cannot accept another’s right to their own beliefs is up to us.

    I choose unconditional love and compassion for all.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

  • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

    IF.. IF.. IF GOD s real regardless of which belief system he comes from he is the most retarded being in the entirety of existence concluded from a long list of things
    And i’d like to respond to a idea Patrick said. That if you would be in heaven for 1000 years you would eventually get bored. I find it amusing that I find boredom as a state I desire to always attain to. Boredom to my mind feels like a signal that I made it”This is the good life” .

    • Patrick Gannon

      I agree on the “retarded” bit, but of course it depends on how you define “god.”

      Personally I would much rather cease to exist (which is exactly what I anticipate), than spend eternity being bored.

      I always get a kick out of the idea that Satan and some other angels found heaven to be so unsavory, that they were happy to leave.

  • Katrina Chase

    Im struggeling tofihure out how to join. I AM HERE and GOD i want more than anything to shout from the rooftops ALL crazy ways GOD has been moving me in this life that can assist in bringing the change WITH TOMORROWS GOD as i have experience so undeniably in my life

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    “I have had a NEW Conversation with God … When my last conversation with God came through over ten years ago, I thought it would be the final such dialogue I would ever publish. I was wrong.”

    “Seven months ago, on August 15, I was awakened in the middle of the night with a brand new CwG moving through me. I threw back the covers, raced to my keyboard, and began a totally unanticipated interaction. Conversations with God-Book 4: Awaken the Species (which is what I have titled the book) contains a stunning, if not to say jaw-dropping, revelation, and a striking, direct from Divinity invitation to everyone who finds their way to this new and unexpected dialogue.”

    If I recall right, Neale was awoken at 4:23 am. Which is interesting to me simply because that is the number of my childhood home address.

    I can see some absolutely fascinating conversations around this book. Especially, especially on how we can actually incorporate them in our day to day lives.

    Here’s to visualizing a more HEB world coming to our near future now.

    • Stephen mills

      It’s my childhood home address as well just to add to your coincidence !

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Holy Yow! :-) Thanks for the share…..

  • Jethro

    ON WANTING HAPPINESS…. We don’t want to be happy. We want other things.
    Or let’s put it more accurately: We don’t want to be unconditionally
    happy. I’m ready to be happy provided I have this and that and the
    other thing. But this is really to say to our friend or to our God or to
    anyone, “You are my happiness. If I don’t get you, I refuse to be
    happy”. It’s so important to understand that. We cannot imagine
    being happy without those conditions. That’s pretty accurate. We
    cannot conceive of being happy without them. We’ve been taught to
    place our happiness in them.

    So that’s the first thing we need to do if we want to come awake,
    which is the same thing as saying: if we want to love, if we want
    freedom, if we want joy and peace and spirituality. In that sense,
    spirituality is the most practical thing in the whole wide world. I
    challenge anyone to think of anything more practical than spirituality
    as I have defined it — not piety, not devotion, not religion, not
    worship, but spirituality — waking up, waking up! Look at the
    heartache everywhere, look at the loneliness, look at the fear, the
    confusion, the conflict in the hearts of people, inner conflict, outer
    conflict.

    Suppose somebody gave you a way of getting rid of all of that?
    Suppose somebody gave you a way to stop that tremendous drainage
    of energy, of health, of emotion that comes from these conflicts and
    confusion. Would you want that? Suppose somebody showed us a
    way whereby we would truly love one another, and be at peace, be at
    love. Can you think of anything more practical than that? But,
    instead, you have people thinking that big business is more practical,
    that politics is more practical, that science is more practical. What’s
    the earthly use of putting a man on the moon when we cannot live on
    the earth? – Anthony “Tony” de Mello

    • Patrick Gannon

      That’s easy enough. We all just get permanently stoned on some powerful drug that makes us happy. Everyone would be happy – of course we’d all starve to death, but at least we’d be happy!

      • Jethro

        I don’t need drugs or god to be happy, or as I choose to define it, satisfied with something, or content. Why do you need drugs to be happy? Is life going that poorly for you? So much that it has become something to argue? I think what I posted has at least a little to do with false happiness.

        • Patrick Gannon

          That was tongue in cheek humor, Jethro. Sorry you didn’t pick up on that. I thought it was obvious, but many people don’t get my humor.

          You asked if someone gave us an antidote for all the crap in life, would we take it. I merely pointed out that there are probably drugs that could do that.

          I did not say I need drugs to be happy, did I? I did not say my life was going poorly, did I? Why would you make such suggestions and jump to such conclusions? It’s not like you to jump right into the straw man arguments. (You aren’t by any chance, Neale, playing a pretend character here, are you?)

          if we want to be happy, the best way forward is probably through finding ways to bring meaning to our lives. When we die, we’re gone. If we want to make a difference, if we want to live on, it will be through what we accomplish and how we are remembered. Taking the spiritual-happy-drug that Neale pushes, strikes me as being pretty similar to getting stoned on drugs that produce the same effect. It’s an option, but is it the best option? Not for me.

          • Jethro

            You are correct, I missed it. I’ve seen you write things similar to…”some powerful drug that makes us happy. Everyone would be happy – of course we’d all starve to death, but at least we’d be happy!” a few times. I didn’t give any thought to you being funny.

            I guess it just sounds like you have something against happiness. “We’d all starve to death” by being happy? I used to tell my kids you can’t have fun all the time cause it doesn’t put food on the table, But of course I was referring to fun as an action. Happy is not a constant emotion but it can be a constant state of mind. That is; I don’t like shoveling horse dung but I’m Happy working at a Horse stable day in, day out. Maybe we’re talking about a different kind of happy?

            Bubba, the only thing I know about a strawman argument has to do with a Witch, Oz, and a Scarecrow.

            I copied and pasted that post from “Wisdom from Anthony DE Mello” Check it out and see if it sounds familiar.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, I have nothing against happiness. I just don’t think it should be the goal. Our goals should be loftier than that, and with luck our goals, and efforts to achieve them, will produce happiness as a side benefit. People who accomplish great goals, as best I can tell, don’t have happiness as a goal; they have accomplishing great things as a goal, and on occasion that makes them happy.
            .
            If happiness is our goal – it’s pretty simple. Find a drug that will make you happy all the time. Chances are you’ll starve to death, but at least you’ll be happy. If your goal is to achieve something useful and you work towards that all the time, then of course that can provide happiness as a side benefit, such that you are happy much of the time, and without starving.

            A straw man argument is when you put words in someone else’s mouth that they didn’t say. For example, you asked, “Why do you need drugs to be happy?” I never said you need drugs to be happy. This was an argument about something I never said. You suggested, indirectly that I said life was going badly for myself and that I needed or used drugs to overcome that, but I never said anything about my quality of life. It’s a very common debating technique, used extensively by believers, so I’m sensitive to it, and point it out when it happens, which is quite often.

            I’m not entirely against spiritual happiness drugs such as Neale peddles, but people should be aware of what’s going on. If he stuck to scientifically supported techniques that produce happiness, such as meditation, mindfulness, art, music, sports, microdosing, etc. and left out all the gobbledygook about imaginary invisible beings that live in the sky, I think he would accomplish more good, and he could still make a living selling programs to help people do some of those things. Even in those things like mindfulness, the goal isn’t happiness; the goal is gaining control over a runaway brain, the hamster on the wheel, so that you can think more clearly, accomplish more, enjoy life more, and thus be more happy. Before I learned mindfulness, I could spend hours driving or cutting the grass or doing other chores, and the whole time my mind would just be spinning, usually in anger and reliving perceived slights and imagining how I would punish those who hurt me if I could…. Now I can stop that on a dime. I no longer let others use my brain rent free.

            Adding the god component, I think you do the exact opposite. Our brains know there is no evidence for gods, souls, devils, afterlives, etc. Most of us know there is absolutely no objective evidence for these things, yet we have people like Neale and other religionists who say we should tell our brains to believe what they know they have no evidence for. That is bound to set up internal cognitive conflict, and researchers tell us this “cognitive dissonance” creates angst, anxiety, anger, hostility – and how can that make you happy?

          • Jethro

            So… I went back and read the whole conversation. I’ll admit there,s more humor when your looking for it. Since I didn’t write the above post, I did not place a relation to anything. Never angry about it just can’t figure out the problem with wanting to be happy, which to me is a word that describes that I am content with life. That is not to say i am not disappointed with a few things in the world and certain beliefs or the actions of most drivers these days. I’m content enough that I can say with all confidence that I’m not going to go “postal” on anyone. though I wish it was legal to shoot horns off of trains, I live a couple blocks from a RR crossing…. for now. house is paid for in two years which allows me to add the vacant lot next door to the property. Thousands more profits in the sale for about 30 bucks.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Read my words more carefully. I never said there was anything wrong with wanting to be happy. I said that I thought we should not make happiness a goal. Our goals should be higher than that, and happiness should be a side-benefit of the things that are truly important. Everyone is looking for a happiness-drug, and that’s what Neale is selling. Stop looking for happiness drugs and do something useful for someone and happiness will be welcome byproduct.

            I used to live right next to tracks when I was a kid. I sympathize!

          • Jethro

            My friend Patrick, having me read carefully is like me having you write more clearly. It is what it is. I wasn’t hurt by it, and if you were I apologize. In all my endless wisdom I misunderstand now and then.

  • Jethro

    We cannot honestly list what feels good and bad to believe. If we try to do that every month, every week, even daily. It will change. It’s relative to the moment. We can try to copy daily our original thought but it will slowly change all the same. Just like what we believe can make us happy.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    A new blog is up.