A Voice in the Wilderness
WHAT IT FEELS GOOD AND BAD
FOR ME TO BELIEVE

It feels good to me to believe in God. It feels good to me to believe that someone “has my back,” that someone is “there for me,” that someone is supporting me, empowering me, uplifting me, protecting me, and embracing me. It feels good to me to feel that I am not alone in this Universe and not without help in this life and not without a Home to which to return when my time here is over. It feels good to me to believe in a God who loves me unconditionally and empowers me unlimitedly and accepts me unreservedly. It feels good to me to believe in a God who gives me Free Will to express and experience myself in the way that feels most authentic to me and most loving to me and most wonderful to me. It feels good to me to believe in a Higher Power; that there exists in the Universe an Essential Essence, a Pure Energy, that I may use to impact in a positive way the expression and the experience of my life. It feels good for me to believe that there is no separation or difference between this Essential Essence and me, and that it is, in fact, that of which I am comprised.

It feels bad to me to believe in a God who is separate from me, who is made of something I am not, who is watching my every move, noticing my every mistake, judging my every choice, and holding me to account for my every misdeed. It feels especially bad to me to believe in a God who may be approached in only one way, accessed by only one path, found and rejoined by only one method — and who condemns and punishes with everlasting torture and unremitting anguish anyone who comes to God in another way, by another path, using another method — no matter how pure their love for God or how sincere their search for God or how deep their desire for God may be.

This does not mean that those who do believe in a God who is and does these things are “wrong” for doing so. My comments above are in no way meant to imply that my beliefs are in any way better or more accurate, more sensible or more reasonable than anyone else’s beliefs. I want to make it very clear that all beliefs about God (including the belief that there is no God) are honored by me (and, I hope, by everyone), and that no one is intended to be disrespected by my statement above. To disagree is not to disrespect, and to offer one point of view that diverges from another is not to scorn, but to invite greater understanding.

The only aspect of spiritual practice that I cannot personally condone is any attempt by a believer or organization of believers in a particular doctrine to forcibly impose on another that doctrine or dogma which the believer holds dear. I consider every individual’s spiritual experience and truth to be the most personal and sacred aspect of their life, and I do and will not support any attempt to compel or coerce by any means—emotional or physical—any person to embrace or adhere to a particular teaching, canon, or creed.
Our differences do not have to create divisions, our contrasts do not have to create conflicts, and the variations in our beliefs do not have to create violence in our lives.

There is another way. But we will not find that way by searching for it. We will only find it by creating it. Let us, therefore, go forth into our world in peace and in love, knowing that if there is a God, surely this is God’s desire—and that if there is not a Higher Power, there can be no better way to live in the absence of one.

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  • Jethro

    !!!!!!!Our differences do not have to create divisions, our contrasts do not have to create conflicts, and the variations in our beliefs do not have to create violence in our lives.”!!!!!!!
    “AMEN”
    While I have many thoughts to share, I have little time this wonderful morning. This Quote I have copied and pasted should be the first thing we teach our children. It should be the theme of every school. We should repeat this after every prayer. While many important statements have been made and will be made, this is the most important message I have read today. I will continue to try and perfect this thought, everything else will fall into place and has this far, just by practicing the removal of prejudice and acceptance for all life.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    “There is another way. But we will not find that way by searching for it. We will only find it by creating it.”

    While this is not technically correct in the sense that everything is already created, it is accurate in how we experience life.

    To create a better life for ourselves & the collective world, we have to reprogram so much of our default negative, damaging thinking. To create & practice thinking that does not allow negative stuff to habituate & continually replicate itself in unwanted experiences. This is of course our self talk. The most intimate repetitive influential part of of our creation experience that we can control.

    Not in a rigid militant way, but in a mindful, loving, even fun way to set the tone of our life & those we influence as a result. Guiding our thoughts to more desirable ones.

    Yet even someone like myself who thinks & moves in this world in a positive manner a majority of the time, it surprises me at times, the negativity that still wants to comes in. Fortunately for me I recognize it almost immediately. I also see it simply as part of my past programming that still is there & I simply am re-programing it.

    In my walk the other day when I realized some negative stuff coming in I simply said “Not in my thinking, not in my experience.” This of course in my mind feels very effective in re-defining my self talk.

    That does not mean I ignore or airbrush over problems or negative feeling, but that I can feel them, process them & move on.

    My point? That by mastering our self talk, we help master our own experience & influence the world from that energy of positive life affirming solution oriented living.

  • mewabe

    Both of these beliefs are very primordial…the belief in a benevolent, loving and supporting father-God, and the belief in an authoritarian, stern and judgmental father-God. These two beliefs exist in Judeo-Christian religions. Both of these experiences also exist in the human world between parent and child.

    My question would be, why do we need either? Specifically in this case, where does the need for an unconditionally loving father (or mother) originate? That’s very loaded question, but worth asking, don’t you think, if we are going to get anywhere near our own personal, inner truth?

    I always had a different view…Never having made “God” into a person, whether father or mother.

    Of course we can “make” God into anything we want or need…the sky is the limit. But wouldn’t it be beneficial to question and examine these needs in order to grow past some of them, psychologically and emotionally?

    Another point: if we as human beings had each other’s back, if we were “our brother’s keeper” rather than being made to live in human jungles where the strong and cunning survives and the weak or naive or unlucky looses, would we still have such a powerful need for support from a God that we thus make into a loving and supporting parent to fit such a need?

    And to drive the main point home, not so subtly but clarity is often required: what is or was lacking in our lives that we might have such a need for unconditional love from a deity, and shouldn’t we face this lack and heal at the human level rather than ask a God to be the daddy, mommy or close friend we never had, or thought we never had?

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Those who have delved deeply & sublimely into the nature of God are often confronted with the idea that God is simply a reflection of themselves.

      CwG says we are God, only in smaller proportion. This is in regarding our present local physical selves. Not our Larger non local soul selves.

      For many, they can’t fathom their own divinity & thus go outside themselves like Jesus, Buddha, “The Flash” (laugh), or what ever shakes ones soda.

      If your concept of God gives you pleasure, makes your life more positive & life affirming, I say amen to that!

      • mewabe

        “Those who have delved deeply & sublimely into the nature of God are often confronted with the idea that God is simply a reflection of themselves.”

        Yes, and this is why it might be very beneficial to delve more deeply into our own nature, to get to know ourselves more truthfully and keenly, in order not to be driven or motivated by unhealed and unresolved needs, thoughts or desires.

        Indeed the concept of an unconditionally loving and supporting God appears to me to be the exact complementary reflection of a lack of love and support in one’s life. Shouldn’t this be addressed, rather than seeking a crutch?

        Basically, this is the equivalent of treating the symptom rather than the cause of a disease: the symptom is a lack of feeling of unconditional love and support in one’s life, being treated by a belief in an unconditionally loving and supporting God. The cause is rooted in the past of the individual, in emotional and psychological lack.

        Treating the cause does not necessarily eliminate a belief in deity…it just changes its characteristics, as needs and understanding evolve through personal healing.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          Great point!

  • Patrick Gannon

    “It feels good to me to……”

    Just like a happy drug. Sure it feels god, but that doesn’t mean it’s real or good for you.

    • mewabe

      The uncomfortable question is: why does someone need this belief to feel good? Why would a person feel bad without it, what is LACKING in such a person’s life? And if a person feels bad without such a belief in an unconditionally loving and supporting daddy God or mommy God, shouldn’t such a person seek healing, or at the very least to better understand his or her inner needs, emotional and psychological lacks and motivations?

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        I think from Neale’s perspective, if God exists, one concept seems & feels much better than the other. Given you have a belief in God in some way.

        • mewabe

          I understand that Neale makes a point by contrasting a loving God against an authoritarian God. But this belief in or at least a desire for an unconditionally loving and supporting God is nothing new and also almost universal…and my question is, what is lacking in the human experience that causes such a need, and shouldn’t this lack be examined, understood and potentially healed and resolved at the psychological and emotional levels?

          To express it more bluntly and clearly, what could have been missing in our childhood that as adults we still have this need for an all powerful, all protective and supporting, all loving daddy or mommy God?

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Well CwG also says God is neutral. What is lacking is a healthy concept of God.

            The Pygmy tribes as I understand it still believe in a deity. Yet the kids if I recall correctly for the first 1-3 years are always physically in touch with mom/dad or some other tribe member.

            Thus they are fully taken care of as a child.

            Thus, their self worth & self esteem are established for their life based on the close physical & emotional love given in the early years. Yet they still have a belief in deity.

          • mewabe

            Yes but what kind of deity? The Taoists believe in an “unnamable origin”, but they do not personify it to fulfill their human needs for unconditional love and support.
            My point is not that one way is better than the other, but that we should examine and question all of our thoughts, beliefs, needs, wants and desires in order to growth into our own truths and potentials.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            And that is a good point indeed!

          • mewabe

            Perhaps…everything should be questioned, including this point :)

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Yes, I agree. I also think that sometimes you just got to go for it & not question everything. But for the most part, question everything.

          • Patrick Gannon

            The more primitive the tribe, the more likely that the deity corresponds to nature, but the drive to seek a god out, appears to be evolutionarily induced. It provides an evolutionary advantage. It brings the tribe together in a common cause. It separates us from them.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I think it might be that, unlike other animals, we are more aware of our impending death and it scares us. I don’t know if animals are as aware of the fact that they will die as we are, but if they were, I suspect they would create gods as well.

            The trait to believe and trust authority is surely a product of evolution. When the parent yells, “don’t play with that snake” the child who fails to respond immediately also fails to pass its genes along. Extending this trust and belief in authority to an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky, also answers all the other questions about the natural world that they didn’t have when we first evolved as a species. We are the product of what came before us, and we’ll continue to evolve, but just as we still have genetics that traces back to dinosaurs, so too, these other traits will probably never completely leave us, unless and until we figure out how to genetically modify humans. Perhaps one day we can remove the fear, that associated with inclination to trust authority, makes us such easy marks for those who peddle beliefs for their own advantage.

            Today, our evolution works against us, allowing those who peddle beliefs to prosper by manipulating and leveraging our ingrained traits, in the same way the Church does so with our strong sex drive, without which we would not have survived as a species.

            It’s time to face up to the fact that this is all there is. Science does not claim to know everything, that’s for sure; but it does claim to know some things beyond reasonable doubt, and one of those is the understanding of particles and forces in our natural world. There simply are no unknown forces that can impact our particles, or that need to exist in order to explain certain unexplained actions. There are no unexplained actions. It’s clear now, that there are no gods or afterlives, or if there are, they don’t include us.

            How does understanding this change us? Does it make us fearful and cause us to lose hope? Do we run around killing, raping and robbing because there is no final punishment? Do we make the very best we can with what we have because there are no second chances?

          • mewabe

            “It’s time to face up to the fact that this is all there is”.

            This is interesting, because this is my path…but in a way that is a bit different, more from a Buddhist perspective.

            I believe that there is nothing past the here and now…or rather, that the here and now are the only doors to everything else. It’s a bit of a paradox, but easy to understand if you can get past some of these word limitations…For example, if you do not develop the ability to be present (“mindfulness”) today, you most likely won’t be present tomorrow or next day either…which is equivalent to not having a tomorrow.

            Same thing with being “here” (again, mindfulness). Those who are not mindful (present) experience life as through a speeding train, the future upon which they focus turning out to be nothing more than an ever evading present and a new future.

            And if you want to contemplate the possibilities of infinity and eternity, we can probably say, in a philosophical sense, that the door to infinity is “here”, and the door to eternity is “now”.

            So yes, here and now is truly all that actually matters, all else being merely a thought as far as our own personal human experience is concerned (a memory of the past or an expectation of the future).

          • Gross Prophet

            Perhaps it is not a ‘need’ so much as a subconscious recognition of a barely-perceived reality…kind of a ‘deep calling to deep’ kind of thing.

            Had someone never experienced this, to whatever degree they are capable, I don’t believe that it would be such a universally prevalent phenomena.

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      A placebo isn’t real yet it can still do good.

      • Patrick Gannon

        But it doesn’t really cure anything. It’s faking out your mind. That it works, tells us that it’s all in the mind, all in the brain, all in the neurons, synapses, nerve cells, connectome, hormones and other electrochemicals from which our consciousness emerges. The best thing we can do is keep studying the mind in order to find out how and why placebos work so that we can use this knowledge for greater benefit.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          Placebos work in certain cases & it proves that the mind influences certain illnesses. Some say all illness is of the minds creating. Studying the mind is always valuable.

  • Kirsten

    For once I agree Neale. As a female, I need to know someone has my back, the world is scary. I know that if my car unknowingly had a leak, that I will randomly glance at the temperature guage just as its rising to the red line. I need to know that I will be woken if theres a noise outside. I need to know my kids are always safe. I need to know the bills will always be paid even if my work turns over exactly what I need to the last cent. I need to know I would have just got my house spotless before unexpected visitors turn up. I need to know I will be drawn to call a cat in just as it reaches the front door. I need to know things will always fall in to place no matter what. I need to know if Im knackered after work the kids will decide to eat dinner out before I say a thing. I need to know if Im late with a deadline at work, then that customer will be late as well. I need to know I will never get sick when I have to be well and on to it. I need to know I will always have everything I could possibly need. I need to know a cats cyst will self erupt just before I spend a fortune at the vets. I need to know I will always know what I need to know.
    Its important to have faith, but thats not something we give, its something we receive.
    It feels good for me to believe in God. Without Him I would be screwed!!
    Take care,
    K

    • Patrick Gannon

      All those things you mention are natural consequences of your life. Why is it so hard for us to take credit for our own abilities, in being able to discern the sorts of things you mention, instead of crediting them to some imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky? You’ve learned to do these things, and you apparently do them well, so why can’t YOU take credit for that?

      In order for this immaterial being to make you “glance” at something, there are particles in your head that have to be manipulated. Your brain has to experience various sorts of activity involving neurons, synapses, hormones, nerve cells, electrochemicals, etc. in order to get you to “glance” at anything. There are no forces, outside of the ones we know about that can do such things. There is no need for any such forces to explain the actions of our particles in this natural world. YOU are making this happen, not something outside of you. Immaterial things cannot affect material things. We’ve known of this issue, at least since Princess Elizabeth of Bohemia put Descartes in his place many decades ago, in challenging his proposal of dualism. How does something immaterial push around the material things of the body? He couldn’t answer the question then, in part because he had no data. Today we can answer the question with remarkable precision – and the answer is that there is no such thing as forces such as souls, gods, or devils that can affect the particles in our natural world.

      • Kirsten

        Yes Patrick, if you say so.
        Then who put all these ‘natural forces’ in place? That are actually the Laws of Attraction, Synchronicity and God stating He will provide what Israelites need.
        Who designed intelligent thinking with our minds/souls, rather than brains? Who designed strong emotions like love? Who gives faith? Who designed us and all animals? Who determined dna especially that one microscopic egg and sperm can make a full person? You can find physical bodies around without God energy and soul…in a coma or propped up in wheelchairs with little control, 2 year old intelligence, generally drooling with a bandana bib. Go for it, but in rejecting God and dietys, you are rejecting your very own existance.
        Credit where credit is due, but I’m not that talented!! Haha.
        I understand your beliefs BUT I have to say they are wrong. Watch out for the Boogey Man…one aspect of a Hell state is suffering for your beliefs…God might jump down and be an Ogre to you!
        I personally choose to believe in truths proven to me and respect my makers, rather than send a clear message they arent wanted in my life or shouldnt exist just because physical science cant find them! Seek and ye will find.
        Take care,
        K

        • Patrick Gannon

          No, no, no. “I” don’t say so. The laws of physics and the results of countless experiments say so. If gods, souls or demons exist, they are moot within our natural world. They are unable to have any effect on the particles and forces that make up our natural world. It’s just that simple.

          Why does there have to be a “who” to put these things in place? There could be countless universes, and ours just happens to have these particular laws of physics. Other universes might be different. There is absolutely no evidence for any god to start the universe. The universe may have always existed, but we don’t know. It appears that time began at the Big Bang, but prior to that, the universe may have always existed. We just don’t know, and making up imaginary deities doesn’t answer the question in any useful way. If your god did create the universe, why did he make it so hostile to life? Nearly all of it is vacuum that will kill us in an instant. On our own small rock, circling an insignificant star in an insignificant galaxy in an insignificant corner of the universe, even most of the water will kill us, and we can’t live without technical assistance in large areas of this planet. If the universe was created for life like us, it was a lousy job.

          The foundation for the Abrahamic religions has completely collapsed. We know today, beyond reasonable doubt that there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt, and no conquest of Canaan, by the Israelites (although there is evidence that the Persians tore the place up). These pillars are the foundation for the Abrahamic gods. Without them, there is nothing left to support the existence of the imaginary, invisible being(s) that live in the sky.

          Besides, if you are going to insist that everything that exists had to have a creator – then that logic must necessarily apply to your god as well. Who created your god? Your conjecture that some god created the universe has no more evidence to support it than the hypothesis, that a random quantum fluctuation brought the universe into existence. Neither hypothesis can be proven at this point, but your hypothesis has been debunked by having its foundation removed.

          You asked “who gives faith?” I would ask – who curses us with faith? Faith is pretending to know things you don’t know. It’s lying to yourself. It’s telling your brain to pretend to know something that the brain knows it has no evidence for. It’s something bad that we do to ourselves and our society. Faith is not the solution, it’s not a gift – faith is the disease.

          Who “designed” us and the animals – please study evolution. We weren’t designed. We evolved as a result of natural selection. I can direct you to a basic online course to learn Evolution 101.

          Clearly you believe in Neale’s god of fear. It’s also interesting that like the many Christians I debate, you lead with Hell. Christians never attempt to entice me with heaven. They always turn to threatening me with Hell. This tells me they don’t really believe in heaven, or they question just how wonderful it will be. After all Satan and his buds were so discontented with the tyrannical master that they bailed out. In the campfire story about the tree, we know that the talking snake told the truth. The kids did not die when they ate of the lollipop of temptation, and they did become as gods, knowing good and evil after taking a lick – exactly as the snake proposed. The imaginary god at that time punished them for doing something they didn’t know was wrong. Gen 3:22 gives us fair warning that there are evil gods who lie ahead. Remember, in heaven we lose free will, so we’re zombies (thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven – not our will, Yahweh’s will). These souls if they exist, won’t be dragging our minds along with them, since none of the particles necessary to produce them will be going along for the trip. Even if somehow this were possible, heaven sounds like such a frightful bore. After the entertainment of watching non-believers burn for a few centuries, I suspect even that will get boring in time.

          So this guy dies and goes to heaven. The angel at the gate tells him, you can have anything you can imagine. This guy, being who he is, enjoys an endless stream of romantic escapades, he plays golf every day, often making a hole in one. He dines on the very finest food and wine. After 1000 years of so of this, he looks up the angel and he says, “Is this all there is to heaven?” The angel tells him, “Well there is one option we didn’t tell you about. You have the option to simply be eliminated.” They guy asks, “Does anyone ever take that option?” The angel answers, “Sooner or later, everyone does.”

          • Kirsten

            Hi ya,
            Im not Christian, I was a Kabbalist but have finished that journey now. Now Im just me! I used to post in here as Kristen.
            Ive never said God created Earth…Creator did. And The Source makes souls, and made God from His own energy, seeing the need for a Law enforcer and male in principles. God in turn made females, again seeing a need for something different to Himself.There are many different Gods, mine happens to be the Biblical one, the God of my family, the Israelites. Thats it. Genesis is a story, but to give some understanding, and a thousand years to God, so the story stretches over 6000 years I assume. Note people early in the OT lived to be close to 1000. Old bibles say that Creator made Earth, not God, early Christians changed it to suit themselves, just as they change everything. Christianity is man made, and I agree that most are imagining God in tneir lives, but I dont. Scripture even states ‘I will hate you countries who invite detestable yellow people to live amonst you’. Why would any Asian then choose the Biblical God as their diety? I assume they havnt read that bit!! You cant dismiss things that are proven to others just because their experiences differ to your own. Why would anyone want to believe in someone or something that hasnt proven themselves to be real. Surely that would be defined as a mental health illness?
            Also look up fire, sulphur and other things in a dream interpretation book, Hell is just a mental state altho a crap environment may be in place to bring it about.
            Take care,
            K

          • Jethro

            “You cant dismiss things that are proven to others just because their experiences differ to your own.”

            Very powerful statement.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “You cant dismiss things that are proven to others just because their experiences differ to your own.”

            Jethro, I don’t find this statement to be powerful at all. I completely disagree with it.

            See the word “proven.” Actually science seldom uses that word. Unlike religionists, scientists are willing to admit they might be wrong and to change their views based on new evidence. Have you ever seen a single religious text changed on the basis of new evidence?

            However assuming that something has been “proven” means that compelling objective evidence was provided, that the scientific process was followed, that observations were made, experiments repeated with the same results, predictions made that arise from the data, that turn out to be true. These things would lead to something being “proven” enough to others, such as scientists, that the less educated and knowledgeable among us can trust the conclusions to be pretty reliable, and particularly to be confident that if it turns out to be wrong, we will be so informed.

            There is no logical or rational basis to accept the subjective and otherwise completely unsupported evidence for The Source, Creator, God, Essential Essence, Pure Energy, or the myriad of other capitalized words that refer to an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky.

            Subjective evidence is not “proof” and we all know our brains can’t be trusted. Subjective evidence is often completely unreliable evidence. Ask 5 people to describe an incident and you’ll get 5 different stories. Look at how many people have been sent to prison, based on subjective experience, who were later found by science-based DNA evidence to be innocent. In my state, four Navy sailors were just pardoned after decades in prison because DNA evidence cleared them. They were convicted on “proven” subjective experience, except that of course it was anything but “proven.”

            YES, if the so-called “proof” is subjective evidence, we can absolutely dismiss such things, and indeed we are compelled to do so if we are being honest with ourselves.

            I’m sure that Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite and Charles Manson all had “experiences” that were “proof” to them.

          • Jethro

            The human mind does not always operate on facts. Proof to one person is not proof to another always. I get what you’re saying and I agree with it. But, what you require as proof is not required as prove to others. Believing is truth to the believer regardless of how they receive the information and how much proof they had of its actual truth. I was a drunk who believed drinking made me feel better, I had proof because after drinking I felt better. Now I know it wasn’t true but belief made it true at the time and what about the proof I had. I’ll say that at the time it made me feel better. There’s nothing about human thought that is cut and dry, it’s too fluid, there’s too many variables throughout someone’s life and their different experiences to deny someone’s proof. That proof is their truth regardless of how senseless it my seem.

          • Patrick Gannon

            It is not incumbent, however on others who may be more rational, to accept as proofs, things that clearly aren’t. When so-called “proofs” violate natural laws, there is nothing wrong with calling this to attention. If nonsense is not challenged it proliferates.

          • Jethro

            Not at all. It’s not my concern nor my duty to make sure anyone believes anything any certain way. You make a valid statement though, challenge nonsense. Your road block will always be faith in the unseen. People believe. It’s why I asked what you then would have said to you now, you once believed too. You know how strong that belief is. You’ve been on both sides, I have been on both sides. I believe in a power greater than myself, or a cause greater than myself but it has nothing to do with an invisible being in the sky.

          • Patrick Gannon

            What is the difference between “God” and “Creator” (using caps like Neale in order to signify that the word somehow means something different when it is capitalized?). So now we have Gods and Creators? What’s the difference?

            Oh my, and now in addition to God and Creator, we have “The Source” who makes souls (those immaterial things that have absolutely no effect within our natural world). And this “The Source” made God (singular) who is to enforce the law (who lays down the law? What law – the one that says to stone homosexuals?). Then you go on to say there is not a God, but many gods. Did “The Source” make these gods too? Somewhere along the line, The Source made Yahweh, your god, the most miserable of all the gods ever conceived of, as best I can tell. Kirsten, surely you don’t expect me to take you seriously?

            Your assertion that people lived 1000 years is patently ridiculous. There is absolutely no fossil evidence to support that. A 100,000 years ago as modern man emerged, the average life was probably mid-twenties at best. By Jesus’ time this had risen to mid-30s, at best. The idea of 1000 year old people is completely without foundation, as I’m sure you know,

            You’re a sweet gal, and I’ve enjoyed chatting with you in the past, but from my perspective, you are far removed from reality.

          • Kirsten

            There are many dieties above, and always has been. Creator makes the pbysical, The Source the invisible and souls, then there are Gods.
            Btw..the stoning reference is to sodomy, not gay. And only a Law in Israel, the privately owned land of the Israelite family where they CHOSE Jehovah as their God, and He chose them.
            Its sad that you lost your faith and are now so damn stubborn that you would rather continue life with such a closed barrier in front of you, rather than seeking and inviting God or others to prove their existance to you.
            Again, my reality is proven to me….I have high functioning autism, my world is black and white…fact or fiction, like your thinking is black and white BUT, again, I have different things proven to me, realities.
            The OT is my family records, and if it states all the ages people died then Im not calling God or my ancestors liars. Why would they lie about that?. Read the early OT when it tells you the ages people dies.

            Take care Patrick,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Give me some sort of objective evidence for any of these deities. You can say that you “believe” that there are such deities, but you are speaking, as Neale often does, in absolute terms about something you have absolutely no more evidence for than he does for his god. You can’t both be right, but you can certainly both be wrong.

            Your story of the “privately owned land” of the Israelites has been thoroughly debunked – in large part by Israeli archaeologists who had access to the places described in the bible, and who have now admitted that the Exodus certainly did not occur as depicted in the bible.

            In order to have a shot at peace in the mideast, the Israelis need to publicly admit that they have no god-given right to their land because the Genesis stories have all been fully debunked. That doesn’t mean they have to leave, but admitting they have no god-given right to be there, would be the first step in the “global conversation” that we all need to have about how the Abrahamic religions have been fully debunked and the foundation washed away.

            I am completely open to Yahweh-Jesus or any other god proving his or her existence to me with compelling, objective evidence. Otherwise it’s just magic, like unicorns and fairies, with exactly the same evidence.

            Why would your ancestors lie? That’s pretty easy. The Persians beat the crap out of them and exiled them to Iraq. In order to feel better about themselves they invented a history that never happened.

          • Kirsten

            Hi.
            I dont believe in things, I KNOW. Believing in something doesnt make it real.
            I dont need to give you evidence of anything, its all around you and in you, if you dont want to see it all then thats your choice, just as its the choice of others to see it all.
            When I was under spirit guides I would have been able to ask them to do party tricks for you, try asking your own guides to do that.
            Or do you have a way of disputing the weight on an invisible person sitting on your bed, like a dog jjmping up and feeling their energy vibrations? Or if in a closed room asking them to prove they are there and spinning a hanging mobile? Or being shown an image of your son with his arm in a cast two days before he breaks his arm? Or even ten minutes ago wen I forgot to do my wages and work bankings yesterday so bills account went $617 overdrawn (Im useless remembering to do bankings!!), and another account had exactly $617.59 in it to transfer over online, or a customer needing 1.4m of a ribbon and roll had exactly that.
            I can prove a thousand things to you, but you arent here you youll have to look yourself…..if you dare.
            Wanting to be right means you also have to accept and understand when you are wrong. Anything else is just sheer stubborness.
            Take care,
            K

          • Jethro

            “””I dont believe in things, I KNOW. Believing in something doesnt make it real”.

            I know…

            I could not find anything about God leaving in “77” could you re-elaborate? Is this your spirit guide talking or something more popular, more talked about?

          • Kirsten

            Hi Jethro,
            I cant give you proof..remember Im a Kabbalah teacher, this is what we study. We dont believe in mysteries or majic, everything can be explained somehow, by moving up the scale to get closer to God, where intuition, understanding and instincts get stronger, as a tool. I dont have guides, I havnt for maybe 15 years, their job is to just guide you in the right direction. And most are just dead people anyway, I hate them!!! Ghosts! and would ignore anything I heard or dispute it anyway. Thats not of God, God works with signs and will give tools needed, then show you what you need to know. ‘Seek and ye will find’ is God’s way, as well as Christs.
            When trying to work out how the world turned to such crap years ago, I know the 70s in America were hell, but in NZ it was Heaven I stumbled on God leaving in 1977. No crime, unemployment, immigration etc. In NZ every married couple got a Govt loan for their first home, all on a quarter acre with a token 6 big fruit frees and para pool, nuclear families with 2.5 children. We are a colonised social experiment from Victorian England. Most peoples lives were very Trueman show. Every summer we would all have a week at the beach, almost all had lives of equality countrywide. Ok there was obviously crap, but we were almost a communist country with govt ownership of everything, plus govt approving all imports and exports and it really worked. Govt was debt free, all had a free eduction including University, free medical care etc. The changes in our little world were huge between 1977 and 1982, by then it had all turned to crap. We all watched everything unravel.
            Psychically I was able to count years like psychics do on tv to get peoples ages and 1977 ‘felt’ odd and I saw it with a dark cloud. Then I did the same with names and God faded away the same year, replaced by a black cloud. Then I looked to astrology and there were huge astrological changes in 1977, the ‘age of freewill’. Then looked to scripture in a trance state asking God for guidance, and flicked straight to a scripture stating Satan will have a turn ruling near the end of times. Then looked up stuff in the Bible Codes. Then all prophecies and read that Satan would rule with another God (Neptune I guess, the party God of no self control), either Nostradamus or Da Vinci I think. The asked God for varification I was on the right track and was led to open a CwG book 4 I think, in a bookshop, opening to a page that stated ‘I am a new god’, confirming Neales bookes are not of Jehovah God. Then followed Gods guidance for more proof, opening a new age channelled book that said God and those of good were overthrown in the late 70s, then Revelations stating God comes into rule in the end of times, so His full rule hasnt even started yet, then looked at everything from that time including the first apple computer released then, with its first logo of Isaac Newton under an apple tree (representing the forbidden Tree of Knowledge), that sold for $666.66c. Then to Universal stuff, the protective shield around Earth was too damaged in 1977 to protect Earth from other realms and evil, looked at the messages in all songs in 1976-1978, John Lennon with Imagine, a Satanic message, etc, then all movies..Star Wars about sci fi, Watership Downs about false Gods, all fashion changes since clothes and especially shoes can be ‘read’ as they tell you everything about that person. Then looked into every tiny change I noticed and the symbology behind it…woollen blankets replaced with duvets, leather shoes replaced with man made, crochet clothes replaced with machine made crap, houses became brick here, the Tower of Babel story in scripture, laws changed to allow more bars with longer opening hours, God forbids drunkeness, our education system changed when the Wests ed system was Kabbalic, general knowledge and life skills (The University of Life), all primary/elementary schools introduced uniforms when we had been fine with shorts, a tshirt and jandals/flipflops, immigration became rife and so on. Everything I looked at gave me the same answer.
            With Kabbalah, every question ends up taking weeks to answer as you are generally your own teacher with an overseer, and you are correct when YOU cant dispute the answer at all, as Einstein taught ( a Kabbalist, as was Da Vinci and most of them), instead of giving you the answer they will teach you to think, research and find the answer for yourself because thinking is a science as much as anything else. You are also correct when you are back where you started, working through a figure 8. I started psychically with something happened in 1977, and God faded away. Ended with having enough information to KNOW God left Earth in 1977.
            Although Patrick will have something to say about that!! He wont see it as a science to prove information, although you start with a theory, then hypothesis, ending up with a result that will prove you right or wrong!!
            Sorry this is so long rather than a website link, but then again, computers are just an attempt to replicate the human mind and brain anyway, so just pretend you read it on a different website and I was able to give you book references, sorry Ive read a million so have no idea other than my own boxes of notes!!
            Take care,
            K

          • Kirsten

            My reply that you will have was in here, stayed up for 13 minutes then disappeared!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Btw I said somethjng wrong..I didnt study songs just from 1976/1978, I did all 70s songs, my childhood! I must know every word to every song. Fav was, and still is I Can See Clearly Now. The key change midway is sheer joy, especially the 90s version. Made me laugh as a kid and still does.
            K

  • mewabe

    When a belief in God is rooted in fear (a fear of life or death or the “devil”), it is not healthy, and it is not spiritually mature.

    When a belief in the divine has love, inner peace and gratitude for foundation, it is much more beneficial and definitively more adult.

    Most religious beliefs have fear as a foundation. Spiritual understanding, on the other hand, springs from love…a love for and gratitude towards all life, all of creation.

    Now read this with a new pair of eyes: “It feels good to me to believe that someone “has my back,” that someone is “there for me,” that someone is supporting me, empowering me, uplifting me, protecting me, and embracing me.”

    Can you see the sadness inherent in such a statement? All of these things should come from us, humans to humans. We should be “having each other’s back”, we should “be there for each other”, we should be supporting, empowering, protecting and embracing each other. That’s what love does.

    The tragedy of the world and the mistake of humanity is that, for the most part, we don’t. And asking God to do it for us is basically akin to refusing to take responsibility for our failures, refusing to grow into love, and asking God to fix what we won’t mend ourselves.

    This is the way of children. Are we children?

    • Spiritual_Annie

      mewabe,

      Would it make a difference if there was no personification? If it were that the universal energy will always co-create with you, and will always co-create with the energy you put in to it, never failing to do so, supporting you, empowering you, embracing you as and with unconditional love? Or if it were Nature? The Universe? The All is One?

      I ask because that’s how I substituted automatically when I first read it–taking the personification out. That’s just me…

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • mewabe

        Yes Annie that’s an interesting point…but the fact remains that we, as humans, shouldn’t ask the universe to do for us what we should be doing ourselves, such as supporting, empowering and loving each other unconditionally.

        The non-personal nature, called the Tao in some traditions, does not bend to our will to fulfill all of our whims and egotist desires as many religious individuals expect their personal God to do (they trade with their God: I have been a good boy so now I expect this or that reward, the ultimate reward being “heaven”)…on the contrary we must cooperate with it and understand its ways, not because the Tao is a boss or a lord, on the contrary because only by becoming one with the universe can we understand and fulfill our own true nature.

      • Patrick Gannon

        What universal energy? How does it affect the particles that make up the neurons, synapses, nerve cells, connectome, electrochemicals, hormones in our brains, all of which are responsible for what we as humans create in our natural world? This force would have to somehow affect our particles, as we’ve discussed before. You are proposing a force for which no evidence exists, and which the probabilities of quantum mechanics rule out with a very high degree of probability.

        Why can’t we take credit for the forces and capabilities that are in our very own brains? I think we have more amazing capabilities locked up in our brains than we know about. I’m reading a book called “Stealing Fire” that is about “flow” or how to get into states that let us operate at much higher degrees of efficiency, creativity, productivity, etc. These things come from within us.

        • Jethro

          Universal energy… ever return a smile to someone that smiled at you. That’s a fair example. So is the anger that is returned to you when expressing anger.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Those are reactions that result from body language, voice, mannerisms, words, etc.. There is no external force responsible for them, Jethro.

          • Jethro

            I know that. But it’s what some refer to as energy. It’s how some develop an understanding of things. All of it is merely a word game. Once we understand something conceptually the words become either a poor or excellent description of a persons understanding. This is why so many arguments occur. We become frustrated by not being able to express ourselves, or understand another, properly, Every word must be correct to the other persons concepts and that’s impossible. Communication can be impossible sometimes.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I find that if one sticks to a factual, scientific, or dictionary definitions of words, that common ground can be found.

            It is people like Neale who bastardize the language, changing the meanings, capitalizing words to give them some meaning other than what the dictionary says, that leads to all this confusion and lack of communication. HIs methods, like religion, separate and divide.

            ” It feels good to me to believe in a Higher Power; that there exists in the Universe an Essential Essence, a Pure Energy”

            It may feel good – so do some drugs – but there is zero evidence for any “Higher Power” as I assume Neale refers to his god. What is the difference between the “universe” and the “Universe”? The universe does not have an “Essential Essence” or an “essential essence” that has anything to do with our behavior in our natural world. If there is any “essential essence” in the universe, it is vacuum. What is a “Pure Energy”? Dark energy? What does that mean? Is “Pure Energy” different from “pure energy”?

            These words are intended to confuse and obscure the facts, and thus they do not help us communicate better. They create a class of believers who pretend to know things they don’t and another class of people who turn to objective, compelling evidence in order to know what they do and don’t know. Neale drives a wedge between the facts and his fictions – just like religions do – by manipulating words to create confusion and obfuscation.

          • Jethro

            Psychology still has very few ways of defining sanity. We are still deciding people are insane or sane by comparing them to everyone else. So to decide someone is not sane we compare that person to a crowd, or a chosen few or we just use our past experience with other people to decide if someone is mentally ill. Right or wrong mental illness is determined by belief. While your beliefs are not wrong, if you go to a christian church and give your current opinion, they will determine your insane. by comparison, they would be right, by a psychologists standards. They could use a dictionary to determine that too. You too were once a devout christian, what would you then have said to you now? How much would a dictionary have helped. When people find a specific spiritual belief they enjoy, they learn the lingo. The lingo is the catch and it has very little crossover strength.

            So what is energy? best match in my opinion per this conversation. Mental energy or psychic energy is a CONCEPT in some PSYCHOLOGICAL THEORIES or models of a postulated unconscious mental functioning on a level between biology and consciousness. This applies to the smile and anger thing I was talking about. A psychological theory is a scientific theory as psychology is a science of thought which will never produce physical evidence. It’s a science that does not have a mathematical explanation because it is too fluent, too unpredictable… unless your a mentalist maybe, but even a mentalist can be wrong now and then because he/she is guessing with the highest probability mostly. Therefore, a belief has validity merely due to the fact that somebody else says the belief is valid. The more people there are stating the un-provable belief is correct, the more correct the belief. strength in numbers.

            Neale uses capitals to emphasize, there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t make it anymore, or any less, believable. If he were speaking to us rather than writing, he may change something in his speech, over annunciation, speaking louder, or spelling it (I hate that by the way). It just points something out that he feels is important to his thought.

            No facts can be obscured if the believer knows or believes anything to be fact. Have your beliefs been changed by Neale? I have been communicating on this blog for months now and Neale hasn’t effected you a single bit. No magic has occurred obviously. No spells have been cast. You still believe the way you do and you will continue to do so. A part of me understands some of Neale’s stuff and a part of me understands what you say too. I understand Annie and Mewabe. Still working on Marko. I like Kirsten, she’s more like myself. Don’t know Stephen mills very well, but interesting. conspiracy theorist? I don’t know yet. We all love A true friend, I wish he would be honest, that is, say what he believes, not what he doesn’t. This blog is filled with people who don’t believe what Neale says is right, but that doesn’t make them wrong, Neale even stated that above. I can dig that.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Oh Neale affected my beliefs very much, after I abandoned Christianity and read CwG when my sister sent it to me. I became very involved in his movement, and I believed his nonsense like a devout Southern Baptist believes in talking snakes (well, I wasn’t quite that idiotic). I made a mistake though. I discovered Neale through reading and challenging my own beliefs; by intentionally seeking out material to challenge my beliefs, and it was only a matter of time before I discovered that I had simply substituted one set of beliefs for another. Oh it’s a nicer, happier, more feminine god that he sells, but it’s still an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky, and for which no compelling, objective evidence exists – just like Yahweh or Zeus or Poseidon.

            I got over it, and my reason for being here, as well as participating in other Christian blogs is to help others get over these unsupported beliefs as well; or if nothing else (and particularly in the case of the Catholic blog I participate in), to illustrate that it is not only OK, but good to challenge authority, as that authority is clearly wrong in many things. Neale will agree about many of the things wrong with Catholicism, and Catholics will agree about some of the things wrong with Neale’s New Spirituality religion.

            There is no such thing as a mentalist. If the brain had fields or powers that affected material in our natural world we would know it by now. Science freely admits that there are many things it does not know yet, but along with that, there are some things that it knows very well and with complete confidence, and among those are the understanding that immaterial things cannot affect the materials in our natural world. It’s a bold statement, but one that most scientists, particularly particle physicists, stand behind.

            New Age folks like Neale and in particular Deepak Chopra, figured if Quantum Mechanics (QM) was hard, and consciousness was hard, the two must necessarily be related. Turns out they aren’t, though a few researchers continue experiments to confirm this. What QM does do, better than anything else has ever done, is to provide accurate predictions. QM predictions are accurate to a degree that blows scientists minds. QM predicts with a degree of overwhelming confidence, that if there were particles or forces that affected the things in our natural world, we would know about them by now. We are able to describe particles such as the neutrino that are so insignificant that although billions of them are passing through you, none of them affect your particles. If we can know about forces and particles such as neutrinos and determine that they don’t affect our particles, how can something even less material do so? A physicist who puts this in language most of us can understand is Sean Carroll. Watch some of his YouTube videos.

            I’m sorry, but the time has come to accept that all this god stuff is gobbledygook. Instead we need to put our focus into leveraging our fantastic brains to make us smarter, happier, kinder, more efficient, etc. We have within our brains the power to do this, and it’s going to be the next wave of self-improvement, and guess what – no gods are required to reap these benefits.

            I’m pretty sure it was Neale who first introduced me to the concept of “mindfulness.” This training is now being provided to corporations, Navy SEALS, and millions of individuals to improve their lives and their productivity. This is good stuff. Why couldn’t Neale have stuck to things that are real? He could have made just as much money selling mindfulness training and done a lot more good.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Tomorrow’s God does not require anyone to believe in God.
            -NDW

          • Patrick Gannon

            It may not be required, but it sure is encouraged. You may recall the little exchange Neale and I had a few months ago, in which he asserted that atheists and agnostics were “damaging” because they don’t believe. He compared us to sexists and bigots. He rightly pointed out that CwG doesn’t specifically say this, but it is his opinion and he affirmed it.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Yes we all have opinions & they change or they don’t. They are waves on the beach of life,– and some, are simply frozen in rigidity, while others eventually melt.

          • Jethro

            Mentalists are not psychic, They read peoples actions very well and manipulate. It has nothing to do with actually reading minds.

            “”we need to put our focus into leveraging our fantastic brains to make us smarter, happier, kinder, more efficient, etc. We have within our brains the power to do this, and it’s going to be the next wave of self-improvement, and guess what – no gods are required to reap these benefits.”” AMEN… :-) Whoops! That’s very true, and I hope to see some results very soon.

            What Neale is doing is catching the eyes of many. If they can find one thing out of all his gobbledygook that raises them a little higher than they once were… well I’d be happy with that.

          • Jethro

            I find that if one sticks to a factual, scientific, or dictionary definitions of words, that common ground can be found.

            So I’ve tried this while having a discussion with my wife, What a crock!!! I still had to humble myself a bit and end with the inevitable “Yes Dear”.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well wives and girlfriends are some sort of alien species, and normal rules don’t apply. Some postulate that the universe emerged from nothing, but there is no such thing as “nothing.” When we ask them “What’s wrong?” and they say “Nothing,” you KNOW there’s something! It’s like when you ask how they are, and they say, “Fine,” you know you better leave the county for a while. (Just joking, ladies!)

            So, I agree, there is always going to be some confusion with words, but there’s no need to add to the confusion that already exists. On the other hand, it’s easy to tell when Neale is in “sales mode” when he starts capitalizing words, so at least he gives us fair warning…

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Patrick,

          Yes, we’ve discussed this before. I believe that there’s a universal energy that existed before matter, from which all matter originated and by which all matter is sustained. It doesn’t “affect” particles, it is the source of all particles.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well yes, but that could be “string theory,” for example. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the fact that this energy, or these strings, or whatever primordial substance that might exist below the quantum layer, would have to intelligently come together in some measurable fashion in order to affect the particles that make up our natural world.

            You’re going to have to have some scientist postulate a mechanism by which this universal energy is able to have intelligence and the ability to manipulate particles that are layers above it. I know of no such theory.

            What we see in nature is emergence. Quantum emerges (perhaps) from strings, quarks and muons emerge from quantum, atoms emerge from that, molecules from atoms, cells from molecules, nervous systems from cells, and finally consciousness and intelligence from the whole kit and kaboodle beneath it. It doesn’t matter if there is a universal energy, it is moot when it comes to how the particles in our natural world operate.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            “You’re going to have to have some scientist postulate a mechanism by which this universal energy is able to have intelligence and the ability to manipulate particles that are layers above it. I know of no such theory.”

            I don’t need “a scientist” putting forth a theory. I’m more of a mind that this universal energy, from which matter “emerges,” can affect other energies. It could, for example, merge with the energy of my emotions and thereby be affected by them. That, in turn, could affect what “possibilities” (in scientific terms) appear in my reality.

            And, if it didn’t have some kind of intelligence, why would it create matter to begin with?

          • Jethro

            Quantum emerges (perhaps) from strings, quarks and muons emerge from quantum, atoms emerge from that, molecules from atoms, cells from molecules, nervous systems from cells, and finally consciousness and intelligence from the whole kit and kaboodle beneath it…. finally consciousness and intelligence from the whole kit and kaboodle….

            the whole kit and caboodle. You almost went there!! I was reading with complete excitement and then…”the whole kit and caboodle”. It’s like I was taking a bite of my favorite pie and somebody knocked the fork out of my hand!! Consciousness and intelligence or knowledge, where does that originate. What causes That part of the brain to function. Why are we self aware? Are we self aware or is it all an illusion?

            I spent a lot of time in a class room, spent a lot of money to figure this one out and no real answer. We know more about the ocean floor. Human thought is a mystery, we even know what parts of the brain store certain information. Everything you believe my friend is relative to your experiences. Everything you know. Like a criminal is guilty until proven innocent, (yeah I said it) You know what you know until proven otherwise. As it is with anyone you speak with. As it is that you are where you are. People just know what they believe and they believe what they know. It’s the reason for the argument that I refuse to have. It’s the reason Neale says there is not a right or a wrong. A belief is truth to whom ever believes. Your beliefs are beliefs with science backing you so you call it real.

            “””People are spending money on this technology, and that doesn’t happen unless it works.””””
            Like donations to a church?

            “””The valuable stuff like meditation and mindfulness that Neale has promoted, are indeed valuable and useful and may become much more so, given that we aren’t working with immaterial spirit magic, we’re working with real things, real particles, real neurons and brain cells and synapses, and so forth, and these things can be manipulated by real things like chemicals and vibrations, rather than souls, gods and devils, and they can give us real advantages and benefits, apparently.”””
            This tells me that you have merely found what you believe is a better way to find what people have found in the past through a belief in God. Which confirms essentially that you are not out to prove that God does not exist, You are waiting for God to prove himself to you… Again. Something you can argue with FACTS. I could be wrong about all of this. Yeah, I know you like that one. A lack of physical facts do not prove ignorance, it proves that some beliefs do not have physical facts… yet.

  • Jethro

    Life should be sacred, a happy life is our goal. Each person will seek the way to that happiness by whatever means possible.
    It feels good to me to believe that people will seek and achieve that happiness, not only for themselves, but for others as well. It feels good to me to believe that a person can fearlessly believe however they wish to achieve that happiness, that all spiritual beliefs are the personal tools of each individual in which they develop the ability create that happiness. Not only for themselves but for all life. It feels good to me to believe that I was born in a place where I have the freedom to choose the beliefs that work best for me, to be able to develop an understanding that leads me to believe that all life is important. ALL LIFE.

    It feels bad to me to believe that humanity is working so hard to spread hatred for things that are not understood. It feels bad to me to believe that people are thinking they have the only belief that works because it works for them. It feels bad to me to believe that with billions of individuals on earth with so many acceptable differences, that spirituality is the one difference that is attacked the most, that people use their spirituality as a reason for attacking another. It feels bad to me to believe that so many spiritual beliefs are based on an expression of love and understanding, then used to spread hate and confusion.

    I have scratched the surface of many different beliefs. Some have ceremonies that include group sex, some sacrifice some form of life, some sacrifice self to some form of personal suffering. I do not need to create any of these actions to find personal inner peace, Given time, we will naturally have sex, naturally lose a loved one to death and most certainly experience a suffering produced by ourselves or some outside source. Given time, we will learn from those happenings without creating them and not because we “now feel we are ready”. Life is the process in which we learn and it’s most effective when it happens on life’s terms. While I know I have bashed another for their beliefs and opinions, just recently, I know that it didn’t do me any good nor the person I was bashing. It feels bad to me to believe that I couldn’t let another human, experience that process of life that will ultimately help them, arrive at the understanding that serves them best.

    Our differences do not have to create divisions, our contrasts do not have to create conflicts, and the variations in our beliefs do not have to create violence in our lives.

    • Patrick Gannon

      “a happy life is our goal.”

      Why? Why is this a valuable goal?

      We live in a time when the search for happiness has taken center stage. TV shows, books, movies, websites, programs, CDs, constantly offer pointers on how to finally achieve and sustain the elusive happiness state of being. Neale here, peddles his “happy spiritual drugs” as his contribution.

      What if there was a drug that would make you completely happy but remove any interest you might have in actually accomplishing something useful, other than simple survival? What if, from the outside, you led a boring life, like being on a treadmill, but inside you were blissfully happy, with imaginary romantic escapades and challenging adventures, but you never accomplished anything meaningful. Would you take the drug?

      Think of the people we admire, such as Socrates, Jesus (assuming he was a real person), Gandhi, Mandela, King, etc. or perhaps Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Beethoven, Shakespeare, etc. Is “happy” the first word that comes to mind in describing these people? Surely they were happy, from time to time, but “happiness” is not their defining characteristic, is it?

      Perhaps we put too much emphasis on happiness, forgetting that life is a process defined by activity and motion, and instead searching for that one perfect state of being. There can be no such state, because change is the very essence of life. At the end of the day, or the end of your life, how much does it matter that you were happy much of the time? Wouldn’t you rather have a good story to tell?

      (Paraphrasing Sean Carroll in “The Big Picture”).

      • Jethro

        Do we wish to achieve peace then, maybe a good life? What word could we use to say we are satisfied with life on that last day? I’m not very picky. I’m sure I don’t want to look at “the big picture” and think, “Damn, that sucked!” Or I coulda, shoulda, woulda, which I do anyway from my lacking of knowing a better way. I’m learning still and honestly more satisfied with life. I’m happy with that or we can use which ever word you like to better describe that emotion.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Achieving peace is a valid goal. Happiness is a side product. Learning is a valid goal, happiness is a side product.

          I’m just questioning the validity of making “happiness” the goal. That’s what New Age is certainly selling, but is it truly attainable as a goal, or can we only truly get it as a side benefit of some more meaningful and important goal?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            I’m not sure that happiness can “only” be gotten “as a side benefit of some more meaningful and important goal.”

            Watching butterflies, holding babies, smelling a patch of lavender, watching a sunrise, snuggling with my miniature schnauzer… These are all things that bring me happiness yet take so little time. There’s plenty left over for happiness as a side benefit.

            And who decides what’s “more meaningful and important?” Hmmm…

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Valid point. We all have to decide for ourselves what is meaningful and important. The question is whether we pursue things that are meaningful and important, however we define that, or whether we pursue happiness for its own sake.

          • Jethro

            Faking happiness isn’t really happiness. Only the person who says they are happy knows the truth. I’ve met many people who said they were happy whom I felt was lying about it, but it’s not for me to be concerned after doing all I could to help. i can still be happy/satisfied that I did… something. Even if just a smile.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            And my point was that there are moments of happiness that take little or no effort or time, making them worth it to me, even while I pursue what is meaningful and important to me, which is to feel unconditional love and compassion for all existence through a Spiritual path.

          • Jethro

            Happiness is a by product of things going well. So when I say the goal is ultimately to be happy, the goal is to have things go well, to be satisfied with the outcome of any endeavor.

            I’m not being unrealistic with that statement. I don’t expect sunshine and daisies in every moment of every day. As Mewabe stated concerning creative expression, I’m very critical of my work and rarely satisfied with it, But When my customer is extremely satisfied and hands me a check for services rendered…. I’m happy! I’m also a little wealthier in more ways than one,

            It may have taken a lot of foul language to get there but I’m happy. The thing is I’m also happy to do the work, I enjoy what I do, maybe I enjoy getting angry, things not going right, never having the right materials available, removing skin and puncturing my hands. You work on homes and know what I mean. When it’s all said and done, I’m looking forward to the next one. I’m just Happy to do it. Maybe it’s the challenge.

      • mewabe

        The “pursuit of happiness” is actually detrimental when happiness is obtained by choosing denial. And in our present day world, and especially in North America, some form of denial or evasion is the primary choice of most. I would rather pursue truth, knowledge and understanding, healing, and creative expression.

        Interestingly, creative expression can be a torment…most creative individuals see their talents as both a blessing and a curse…a curse because you are never satisfied for very long with your work, unless you are mediocre and full of hot air.

        Did you know that the “pursuit of happiness”, which has become a sort of obsession in this nation, was originally written as “the pursuit of property”?
        Because this sounded too much like theft, given the fact that such property originally belonged to Native Americans, the meaning was changed.

        I agree, happiness should be allowed to come and go. Seeking a constant state of anything is a bit unrealistic, as the only constant is change. Even what is called the “soul”, if it does exist, must change…if it has anything resembling life and energy in it.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          When you’re truly at peace you can be happy even when your not.

          • mewabe

            Yes, when peace comes from acceptance…no longer struggling to get our way against all odds.
            Peace comes from understanding the way of nature, of the universe…and rising with the crest of the wave, and going down with the trough.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    I’ve been informed by our local bookstore that Neale’s new book has been pushed back to March 27th for it’s release. It’s only one more week. I’m very excited to get it!

    • Stephen mills

      Hi Marko getting a copy the morrow ,I’m in Scotland (uk) .Its getting some great reviews .

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Lucky you!

  • mewabe

    Some random comments about negativity are propelling me to once again attempt to convey a message that is the exact opposite of what is spread out there, both by traditional religion and new age religion, which are actually very close.

    First of all, there are no dark forces, and there is no real negativity. Secondly, the way to overcome fear or any other form of so-called “negativity” is not to say “no” but to face it and embrace it completely and heal its source, which is within you.

    You alone can face and heal your own demons…and understand their origin, which is deep within your own psyche. In order to do this you have to walk through your own self-created “hell”, face your very own, personal “devil”, and embrace and heal all of the destructive creations of your own unconscious and subconscious. You cannot say “no” to those…they will keep showing up again and again until you face them and understand them to be what they are: the products of your own misunderstood suffering and of your own judgment, from this life or (possibly?) past lives.

    The so-called negative people who trigger your negativity (your anger, fear, shame, guilt) do so as does all that appears negative to you, acting as a perfect and clear mirror: they reflect what needs healing within you, what is fragmented and unknown about yourself to your conscious mind. Thank them, as they are actually helpers and necessary to your growth! When you are completely healed, they will never again show up in your life, as you will no longer need them, being at peace, clear-minded, one in heart, mind, body and spirit, and fearless.

    Remember this as well, although it is a minor point: as weeds flourish in poor soils, and bad bacteria and parasites multiply in an unhealthy gut, so does what appears to be outer parasitic negative energies feed on your own negativity. Their role is to wake you up to your own spiritually unhealthy condition, and again to pinpoint what specifically needs healing within you such as fear, rage, guilt, etc. Welcome these things as healing opportunities rather than an outside threat! Learn to use universal laws, as help is all around you!

    And don’t be confused: you cannot heal by denial, by saying no, by pushing things out of your way or out of your mind: you must embrace, feel, express, integrate, understand, until you become one within yourself and one with the universe.

    • Jethro

      Thats not what I posted

      • mewabe

        I know…I was inspired by a video I listened to about some “channeled” (bogus) information on fear, as well as a comment by Marko about internet trolls.

        • Jethro

          I had sat down this morning and read your post. I started responding to your post as I woke up more and more I began re-reading and changing things because I simply didn’t like the way it sounded. out of eight or nine paragraphs I chose two that sounded half way intelligent. when I hit post, everything went nuts and it posted something I began with. Anyway, If you received some gibberish… That’s not what I posted.

          • Kirsten

            Hahahaha.
            By talking to me you caught the special curse in here, that damn non existant moderator spying on you……theyve upped the anti now, rewriting non approved posts into gibberish.
            Damn they’re good.. or is it still just you??
            Take care, K

    • Patrick Gannon

      I am reading a book (listening on audible when I run), called “Stealing Fire.” It is the next step after “mindfulness” I think. It’s the scientific exploration of the feelling that many here have described. They even have an acronym for it:

      STER, Selflessness, timelessness, effortlessness and richness of information. That describes several of what I would have formerly called “spiritual experiences.” I’m not sure what to call them now. It’s being “in the flow.” I’m only partway through the book, and it feels a little like an infomercial given that the authors started a business that is intended to develop ways to produce STER on demand. It all comes out of the brain, and it seems there’s a lot more there waiting for us.

      I’ll report back later after I finish it, but this may be the beginning of the end for New Age, and possibly legacy religion. If we are able to create enhanced meditation techniques, biofeedback mechanisms, micro-dosing, and so forth in order to give people all the things religion and New Age only promise, then indeed, there is a new era in human evolution on the cusp. They claim to be able to let people achieve states in 6 weeks that meditating monks spend decades learning to accomplish.

      Something that confirms to me that this is a real phenomena is news I received in one of my newsletters from the Monroe Institute last week. Monroe was the guy who popularized OoBs back in the 70s and one of the first to do real research into psi phenomenon. In recent years the Institute had become very “New Age” with all the soul and god and same sort of language Neale uses, and seemed to have moved away from its scientific roots. Well, the company was just bought out in order to license the scientific part – “Hemi-Sync” is a real technology that puts different frequencies into each ear as part of a meditation session, and creates a third frequency in the brain, and this apparently helps the two parts of the brain to work together, which is why Hemi-Sync meditation is more successful than many others. The new company is called Hemi-Sync.

      The new website eliminated almost all the New Age junk and changed the focus back to the technology. There’s still some New Age stuff there, but the focus has clearly changed. I suspect that they will go after a different market, like professionals and athletes, yet continue with artists, but do it with science instead of beliefs.

      That this is happening tells me this is a real thing going on here. People are spending money on this technology, and that doesn’t happen unless it works. The valuable stuff like meditation and mindfulness that Neale has promoted, are indeed valuable and useful and may become much more so, given that we aren’t working with immaterial spirit magic, we’re working with real things, real particles, real neurons and brain cells and synapses, and so forth, and these things can be manipulated by real things like chemicals and vibrations, rather than souls, gods and devils, and they can give us real advantages and benefits, apparently. It’s pretty exciting, but it pretty much confirms that that magic stuff isn’t needed any longer and it’s time to let it go. That’s gonna be tough, because without the magic stuff, we have to accept that this is all we get. What they say though, is that this stuff can remove those sorts of fears.

      This might be the real “storm before the calm.” (Of course the calm could also come about when/if we go extinct!)

      If you google the book on Amazon and scroll down, you’ll find a short video of Jason Silva, an utterly amazing guy who hosts “Brain Games” giving an overview. He is one of those rare individuals who has figured out how to live “in the flow” and you can tell just listening to him. He might be described as a “master” by Neale, except that Jason understands that there are no gods and souls and all that magic stuff Neale and other religions insist on.

      This could turn out to be just another generation of New Age mumbo jumbo, but so far, it’s pretty interesting, and the people who have been attracted to it aren’t your garden variety gurus; but rather real, successful, innovative, game changing folks who are changing our world.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        “They claim to be able to let people achieve states in 6 weeks that meditating monks spend decades learning to accomplish.”

        What your dealing with is more bullsh*t here. The same stuff you claim with belief in God or CwG . Hemi-Sync. may be helpful on some level. But if it really worked with minimum or even a degree of effort, everybody would be using it. This has been around for awhile.

        That said if you find it really works, I would consider it.

        Some people awaken in a moment. Like Byron Katie. But for most it’s a gradual pace. We all desire to speed our spiritual growth. For me the fastest way is when the collective as a whole is at peace. That’s not us at the moment. So our work & play is often (not always) more trying & takes a lot of effort.

        • Patrick Gannon

          First, note “they claim,” not “I claim.” I am not asking anyone to believe anything. If I led you to think I “believed” in this, when I haven’t even finished the book, then my writing was poor. I’m intrigued by it. I know that the phenomenon is real; I’ve experienced it myself and would love to do it on demand or even live in that zone; so of course I’m interested. Particularly since it apparently doesn’t required “magic.”

          I have one meditation session I bought from Monroe that is based on hemi-sync, and it does seem to work better. The problem is that it’s too long for the amount of time I generally have available, so I don’t listen to it very often, and I usually have to stop mid-session. There are bills to pay.

          I too remain skeptical, but these are highly influential organizations working with this. The average Navy SEAL costs $500,000 to train, and the millions in losses they incur each year when these guys wash out, is their motivation. They don’t wash out for physical reasons after the first training – they wash out when they are unable to get into that “flow” with their team. The Navy is looking for people who can work together “in the flow” and any technology that can provide that is of great interest to them (and us as taxpayers!). Google and other high tech companies are also implementing tools. Elon Musk is a big fan.

          I think much of the research is going into biofeedback devices that help you attain these states faster and more easily. I hope to learn more as I continue to read the book, and perhaps I was premature in mentioning it before completing it. It’s not often something excites me like that, right out of the gate.

          The hemi-sync stuff has been around, as you say, but it was treated as New Agey stuff and probably not taken as seriously as perhaps it is now. More research may lead to better techniques.

          • mewabe

            I will take a look at this…”Selflessness, timelessness, effortlessness and richness of information”, I have experienced these things often and spontaneously in the creative process, and experience them more and more every day, even in the midst of situations that others would find extremely stressful, such as handling a thousand things at a time (house renovations, multiple and very quick deadlines on multiple projects in my work, etc…and the best way to describe it would be that I have found my center, my equilibrium, spontaneously, without any effort or control whatsoever, and cannot be thrown into inner or outer chaos. The benefit is that everything I do and encounter falls “magically” into place…in “flow”.

            Again, Taoists taught what in the west is described as “flow”, being in sync…while Zen taught spontaneity, effortlessness. These have been part of my path ever since I was 15 years old.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I just stumbled on a brief video by one of the authors. Google “robby berman the scientific reason flow obliterates time.”

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            This is a fascinating topic guys, I love flow & being in the zone. I’d like to discuss further & enjoyed Mewabe’s post on what he does to get there.

          • mewabe

            Thanks Patrick I will check it out!

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Well hey, I almost went the the Monroe institute in the 90’s and all this stuff is intriguing to be sure. So far with out having a lighting bolt awakening or being born with a rather peaceful enlightened disposition, it’s usually a long journey.

            There are quicker ways & gratitude is one way. Once you establish gratitude on a regular basis, you move into appreciation where gratitude has taken root & is so established, you don’t need to use gratitude as a technique, as grand & important as it is in the beginning,– you are there all or much of the time. You are now living in appreciation. You merely tweak when needed.

            When bad stuff happens as we define it, we can appreciate with child like wonder what positive outcome will result. That softens the harsh condemnatory energy and allow more of the flow zone to come in & continue.

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Negativity is our divine friend. It shows up as a speedier way to our peace. It’s a short cut to course correction. It gives us a contrast to show us what we really desire. Except for trauma & abuse etc. Our dark natures are not near as bad as we often make them. A lot of little stuff that we make into big stuff.

      I had a dream last night that I was in our driveway at night & a bunch of college kids where coming at me & I was worried I was going to be mugged, beaten etc. What happen is they threw some t-shirts at me. I saw a keyboard on it & it was simply on ad for a band. To me it was making to much of something only to find it was not bad at all.

      The same can be for our dark side. That said I don’t want to minimize the dark night of the soul, trauma, abuse etc. But beyond that, often our dark side is not that dark but many small things that add up. Facing it is good. But sometimes we make more out of it and dramatize & awefulize it to exaggeration.

      That said, many feel suffering is the real or only way to wake us up. I disagree, I don’t need to grow through suffering. I prefer to have fun and use wisdom & foresight to grow. It’s not as popular as the suffering, but it’s my preferred path.

      • mewabe

        Yes the mind alone, being restless by nature, makes mountains out of mole hills. When we embrace our so-called dark side rather than attempting to run away from it or trying to chase it away (impossibilities), we find that it is nothing more than a simple expression of pain that can easily and quickly be released.

        All these words (negative and positive, light and dark) are charged with some form of mental judgment. Without judgment, there is nothing but pure energy.

        There is no learning or growth through suffering, only the illusion of learning, running in circles within the mind’s creations. Who is learning in such a situation, the real self or the person? The person or personality is a creation of the mind…the real self cannot be hurt, being as the space within a room: even if or when the room crumbles, the space is not affected.

        Joy is the outcome of every successful spiritual journey! But it can also be the medium and the journey itself…

      • Kirsten

        Hi Marko,
        If you havnt seen it, watch tbe movie The Purge. That will give you nightmares about college kids….and people as a whole!
        Take care,
        K