A voice in the wilderness
WE COULD BE JUST A FEW
STEPS FROM OUR AWAKENING

If humanity continues on its present course, life as we have known it on this planet will be a thing of the past. The challenges faced by our species today — from the imminent threat of nuclear war to the apparently-we’re-just-going-to-ignore-it threat of global warming — may now only be overcome-able with new and never-before-tried approaches to changing basic human behaviors. The question before humanity: are we just a few steps from our awakening …or from our abandonment of the life of which we have so long dreamed?

In the newest Conversations with God dialogue we are offered a list of sixteen differences in the behaviors of an awakened species when compared to the behaviors of humans living in an unawakened state.

In the days ahead we complete our review of that list, and provide an opportunity for deep discussion of it. Here, then, are the final items, #13-16:

13. An awakened species never competes. Humans in an unawakened state are often in competition with each other.

14. An awakened species is clear that it needs nothing. Humans in an unawakened state often create a need-based experience.

15. An awakened species experiences and expresses unconditional love for everyone. Humans in an unawakened state often cannot imagine even a Deity who does this, much less do they do it themselves.

16. An awakened species has harnessed the power of metaphysics. Humans in an unawakened state often largely ignore it.

 

Looking at these four observations, do you agree? What changes do you think would take place in the daily experience of humanity if we adopted the four behaviors of an awakened species that are listed here?

Conversations with God-Book 4: Awaken the Species has placed before us a road map, providing us a look at how we may get from where we are as a species to where we want to be: a place that is free from violence and strife, from suffering caused by others, from the experience of lack and insufficiency.

I believe it is possible for the human collective to get there, to create these outcomes. What do you think? Is this all a pipe dream? And regarding the four behaviors on the list above, do you see them as applicable and functional in any way in the daily experience and expression of the sentient beings on our planet?

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  • Craig

    Sorry Neale I missed out on your conversations experience but would like to add that a creation living for the creator will not consider global warming or even nucluer threats any challenge for the creator or his goal. He created all the elements we the creation can never outsmart the creators intent…
    Love being the vessel through which we can connect with the creator is not the language of the universe it is an experience of the fullness of Christ in us.

    • Raphael

      The “Creator” will not come to the rescue of foolish creatures (humans) who are destroying the earth because they do not understand who or what they are, where they live, how or why.

      The essence and true nature of the natural world are harmony and balance…like an old fashioned scale, the natural world, when pushed to one extreme, violently pushes back the other way until balance is restored. There is something to be learnt from this, for the few among us who pay attention.

      You cannot violate the natural order and get away with it, and humanity will learn a very hard lesson if it doesn’t choose a more reasonable path…it will have to assume responsibility for its actions. This is called growing up. The Big Daddy in the sky (the “Creator) will not intervene, and neither will ET’s or anything else we can imagine in our childish dreams while refusing to act responsibly.

      The way humanity is behaving right now is comparable to a person who would choose the very worse diet and lifestyle, and then expect a doctor to magically “fix” him back to a healthy state but without having to make any changes. An immature, irresponsible, lazy humanity expects, in the exact same way, either “God” or science or both to clean up its mess, and without having to change its ways (over consumption, pollution and environmental degradation, exhaustion of resources, over population, to name a few of these unsustainable trends).

      It won’t happen.

      • Kristen

        My votes with perish! Problem is damn nuclear power plants will turn Earth to a nuclear wasteland even if we are gone and Earth is given back to nature and animals, which think it should. Have you seen the tv series Life After People? Its really good and should be online, add it to the list. I note it bypassed what unstaffed nuclear plants plus all the glass buildings near oceans will do when unmaintained…make the oceans hell for marine life.
        Humans will live with the consequencs of selfishness and greed forever now, including when they die and return to the afterlife. We’ve not only tipped the scale on Earth, we’ve tipped it universally with all the outstanding karma due. What we do now will affect individuals forever.
        Few people are worthy of Earth!
        Hope you got some sleep..more freaken rain here. Grrrrrrr. Is the sky still blue? I havnt seen it since April, or is grey the new blue?
        Xx

        • Raphael

          “Few people are worthy of Earth!’

          Now that is 100% Native American! You have the right perspective and understanding and I couldn’t agree more…strangely, few people do. The only reason many “care” about the environment is because they want to save their lifestyle and their civilization, not because they honor and love the earth in any way.

          Still sleep deprived, so I won’t make any attempts at humor until I am rested.

          • Sam

            “”Few people are worthy of Earth!’
            Now that is 100% Native American! You have the right perspective and understanding and I couldn’t agree more…”

            And I couldn’t disagree more. Hate gets us nowhere.

          • Raphael

            Sam, criticism is not hate. Critical thinking is not hateful thinking.

          • Sam

            I am letting you go again, Raphael :)

          • Raphael

            Thank God…I was very very worried for a moment.

      • Craig

        Thank you for the response.

        Welcome to Noah’s age. Have we progressed since then?
        The creator will use and bring about change as pleases. We have always and will always be humbled by the creators ability.

        We need to die off the first Adam our flesh to be awakened or rather guided by the Spirit of God to become sons and daughters of the creator. That is to become a Job today…

        We need to be an example unto others amidst the worldly struggle. A messenger of this truth recorded already 6000 plus years ago. An as then so today a personal covenant or agreement with the creator will provide and empower you with everything you need.

        Discussing over large distances is a good start. Hereafter the secret is to live a life in the community you are in that will guide them through your example. Some will change some won’t, so what only those the Creator calls will respond accordingly. I am not saying stop doing good I am reminding that salvation or as Christians claim Jesus can only be manifested when united in the Creator’s chase.

        And reality is we will all perish when our purpose has been achieved for that is the change when life returns to the giver and dust unto dust.

        So growing up is becoming humble not a bully or more informed but an humble example. Try it for 21 days and then tell me if humble submittance to the Creator’s guidance does not transform our view easier than talking…

        • Kristen

          You dont want to have this conversation with Raphael! He’s far beyond that. Try Patrick, hes always up for a good argument! : )
          Take care,
          K

          • Craig

            Thanks for the advise. I like open and honest opinions as well as reflections on the truths of yesteryears as our generation is the only one to blame for the world we are in. The Romans had water drainage systems next to nothing, we sidestepped and added electrical or coal pumps…
            In the Netherlands they created cities and mills below sealevel we created corporations etc that steal from the meek to enrich the lazy…
            Our generation is to blame. In the 70s the hippies had a great view… But a concerning lifestyle.
            Maybe we should just stop researching ways to heal those affected by terminal ailments and use the funds to create farmers again… Life styles like the Amish just not so ruler centered.

        • Patrick Gannon

          What Creator? What evidence do you have for a Creator?

          The last thing I want to become is a Job. He was treated most shabbily by the mythical Yahweh-Jesus; his family killed over a bet, for crying out loud. The Job story tells us yet another story of the depravity of the bible god. Surely you are speaking metaphorically and don’t believe these ancient fairy tales? There is mention a 6000 year old world, and a first Adam, both of which are utter nonsense. We know how old the earth is, and we know there was no two-person DNA bottleneck. Most fundamentalists or biblical literalists who believe in a young earth creation would be telling Neale that he is going to Hell for his blasphemy. Where are you coming from?

          Prove to me that this Creator exists, and then I shall consider whether to humble myself before it. Why would an all-powerful Creator need its subjects to be humble before it?

          I disagree with you. Growing up IS becoming more informed.

          • Craig

            I atrick
            Why do you want to be more informed?
            For what reason do you reach out and talk to others?
            If it is information you need the library and internet is full of info?
            If it is understanding you seek then information without someone to explain it is worthless…
            Now do I believe in the 6000 year ago creation… NO
            Do I believe in a greater power than human beings and this creation… YES
            Do I have proof there of… YES
            Can I provide it to you… NO
            You must desire to believe and seek the truth then you will gain conviction. Not I or anyone else can help you here, we can just recommend that you humble yourself to seek out and do good.
            Neale refers to communicating with God, well the truth is that is the only why God has ever been revealed unto mankind. A word, a covenant, a purpose or concept or rather idea formulated through our knowledge’s free will in our minds. Focussing on specific topics just keeps our minds busy.
            Emotions are human attributes that force us to make or deny certain relationships. And it is these relationships you read of in the bible that resulted in the creator revealing himself unto certain individuals in peculiar manners. Not a religious dogma you have come to refer to whenever you think of scripture and there purpose.
            Your reference to Yahweh Jesus is also not what the records have revealed that is but an interpretation by individuals putting the creator into something humans may be able to understand and believe on.
            Neale refers to love as the language of the creation. I as I trust you believe it is understandable knowledge that brings about change, love just anchors interactions to make them tolerable.
            As this is Neale’s blog we need to focus on Neale’s discussions or we will be showing disrespect towards him and his insight which he is but sharing…
            As for being humble it is not about addressing the Creator’s ego it is about understanding a covenant relation with the Creator.
            Patrick we are all here for a purpose that is greater than our mind can comprehend. I am not well informed I am still researching and seeking out truths dividing truth, reality, fables etc from information shared by others.
            So yes I need to agree with you that growing up is becoming more informed… Everyone will become more informed on what they willing permit themselves to research, period.
            If I do not understand your comment then maybe it is because we are growing in different directions.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Do I believe in a greater power than human beings and this creation… YES
            Do I have proof there of… YES
            Can I provide it to you… NO”

          • Craig

            Patrick
            Cool, I cannot speak on someone else’s behalf.
            Thank you for your response.
            New Age or Christian Buddhism as I refer to it I do not believe in, I do not believe in Judaism or Christianity as all these are the view of someone as all other doctrines on the Creator.
            All I can tell you is, I have experienced the Creator’s presence I have witnessed events that no natural law can explain. I am not referring to all in the mind experiences, I am referring to people waking up from the dead after being in the morgue for a few days, I have seen people climb out of crashed vehicles unscarred when this just does not seem possible. If I did not witness these and similar events I would also still not believe. Have you witnessed a hysterectomy after 4 sons, and ten years later the birth of girl twins. To name a few. I do not expect you to believe this as it was evidence that was proof for me. During my two plus decades as a policeman.
            As you I followed Christianity for half a century, till I asked why are my prayers not being answered etc. Then I started researching history and scriptural records. As a matter of interest scientists can prove that the cosmetic changes are short of a time period. A biblical incident refers to a time when God stopped the sun and earth stood still… I liked spiritualizing these records I could not understand until a friend showed me the calculation discussions referring to the missing cosmetic activities, internet has some record for public scrutiny.

            I now understand that Yeshua or Jesus is but a scriptural reference to salvation or rather solutions to needs or uncertainties that keep us from believing. It was a cultural change back then which caused problems for the sects of the time, as today it is being misused 95% of the time just as an easy why to earn money and keep transferring the responsibility to the Creator, if he will, as he pleases when in fact decisive action is the only requirement he has ever requested from mankind, call it faith as referred to in the bible, we are the ones that made the Creator the scap goat or crutch to take us through life.
            I have come to accept that the Creator or God or YHVH is an entity we cannot explain but only experience, as the title given to him throughout the ages refers to positive actions revealing the purpose and intent which is realised when carefully worked towards. That is the closest mankind has come to naming him correctly or explaining what he is or how to experience him.
            All the other miracles are for non believers like myself to realise that there is a Creator and our purpose is to try and understand why this creation exists and why we are alive in this age at this time. Sorry no other proof just personal experience.
            I cannot promote anything I do not understand. I can just say there is a lot of truth in all religious views just as their is a lot of emotional hog wash in it as well, which makes people need other people to keep believing. Which is good as it does promote peace and harmony among humans, let’s not deny people their views but rather allow each other to grow through more experiential truth instead of just knowledge based on records we do not understand…
            Neale you may delete this response if you believe it can harm the faith of followers…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Craig, I see a response from you in email, but don’t see it showing up here. Its too bad, because I would like to respond. I’m sure there are natural explanations for the unusual things you have observed. We should always start by assuming rational explanations before turning to things that violate the laws of physics – because it has never been demonstrated that those laws are wrong.

            Sometimes new people have trouble getting posted here until they’ve contributed for a while and the moderator – whoever or whatever that is – decide you are “safe” and posts your content without delay. Your post may show up here later – and if it does, let me know with another post so I can return and respond to it in more detail.

            Thank you for your service as a police officer, helping your community!

          • Craig

            Patrick
            Thank you I thought I failed to post as I was busy way past sleep time…
            I have read your replies on this blog and notice that you trust in science, which is fantastic as it is but hypothesises that are being confirmed or rejected. As for neuro science the more we can determine how the brain responds the better we will be able to maybe trigger the desired responses… Still a few years to go.
            Thanks but no longer a cop grew to old and too fat to serve others as I did when younger… Created a risky interaction instead of addressing them.
            Yes, we need to learn to harness the natural resources in such a way that we do not harm other resources. I read approximately 20 years ago about an interesting wooden house which turns automatically with the sun, generates enough spare electricity to use lights in the house for up to 4 hours after the house stopped moving. If I recall correct it also produced 10 letters of condensation ever two or so hours of rotation. Now this is the science we are in need of. Unfortunately the powers that were at the time stopped this development. And till today no one has been able to remodel this house. Close some come…

            I exhausted the scientific explanations of my observations before I accepted a higher power was at work.
            I agree with a lot you say but would like to invite you to research some biblical records. Yes, spiritualisation or exegesis is often the reason why so many people prefer to stick to the hard facts.
            So here are some alternatives I would like you to research to maybe help you understand my view on a higher power.
            YHVH is the first name explaining the concept god…
            What is it’s real meaning?
            Yeshua is the Hebrew name used to refer to Jesus…
            What is the real translation of this name? As this name is the name the new testament refers to as needed to rely on..
            Emmanuel is not a new testament concept it is an intervention by the divine higher being self not intended for everyone… A principle explained in the old testament records intended for some and others like myself may never truly understand this principle or spiritual law. Unfortunately this has also become a theologic misunderstanding…
            Now read John 1 versus 1-4. Nothing more.
            Now throw away your English translated bible and seek out the original scripts. (A lot is lost through the ages and do not read literally into the scriptures as there is no proof of there origin just circumstantial possibilities) read them as if it is someone explaining purpose and relation intent for that is all you need to discover in the records.
            The how the creator made our minds tick, the mental hardwiring of the human race, two possibilities; doers and confiners or restrictors concerning our physical and mental abilities.
            All things are possible for those who… Set their minds on it. Not a law a mental attribute of all humans. What we think, we do and eventually become…
            We are here to harness the creations substances to survive, we have gone beyond this mandate and that is why we experience the creations response as we do. Nothing super natural just a scientific fact we prefer to ignore because of our egocentricness…
            I would also love machines to do all the work. Unfortunately that will also result in a weaker evolution instead of a stronger one.
            I doubt if we disagree with each other we are just looking at the same scenario from a different view.
            Luckily my wife returned the glasses she bought for me as I still do not view things as she wants me to after 27 years of marriage. And I can not as we are two entities with two different life goals.
            Two life principles cause us to fail as humans…
            We either refuse to listen to anyone or we opt to listen to nearly everyone…
            Hence the reason why we fail to experience the manifestation of the higher power or Creator’s kingdom in our lives… Peace, righteousness and joy nothing more a reality we can all create if we want to.
            And the word took on flesh and salvation was there. No woo woo or after death reality the now and here difference.
            As for living for eternity. Salvation in addressing my shortfalls will reveal my actions which are the things that follow us after death. The things people remember and talk about. When we lie about living without death affecting us people soon forget our other works or words because they find out we died when we said it is not possible… A very short legacy we will be leaving for others to evolve from…
            May evolution be our guide… Or rather may insight help us create a stronger new generation.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Craig, once again, I see a post from you in email notification, that is not displayed here – I’ll try to bring this to Neale’s attention. I’ll comment on a couple things you said:

            “I exhausted the scientific explanations of my observations before I accepted a higher power was at work. I agree with a lot you say but would like to invite you to research some biblical records. Yes, spiritualisation or exegesis is often the reason why so many people prefer to stick to the hard facts.”

            Just so you know, Craig, I’ve been studying religion pretty intently for a decade, and particularly within the last half dozen years. I’ve read the bible cover to cover more than a couple times and the NT additional times (read it in chronological order and a different story emerges. The books are not in chronological order, they are arranged in order to tell a particular story). I have also read “The Other Bible” (well I have a few more chapters to go). This is a huge collection of scripture from early Jewish, Christian, Apocrypha, Gnostic, Pagan and similar writers. I’ve studied a fair amount of early Christian history. I’ve read books both for (Bart Ehrman) and against (Richard Carrier) the mythical existence of Jesus.

            You had a brief discussion about the meanings of the words Yahweh and Yeshua (Joshua – which is what Jesus’ name really is), but to be honest, I’m not quite sure where you were going with it. When I have discussions with believers, I use the term Yahweh-Jesus, rather than “God,” because I want to drive home the point that Christians believe they are one and the same, and that means Jesus did all the genocidal, racist, sexist, discriminatory, infanticidal, homophobic, warmongering and murdering of innocents, that are ascribed to Yahweh alone. If they are one and the same – then Jesus too, is a monster, and that doesn’t even include the incredibly evil concept of Hell. Christians like to conveniently forget that if they are one and the same, it means Jesus is not the “turn the other cheek” dude that some writers ascribed to him, in the books, for which you accurately noted, there are absolutely no original copies.

            Jesus, however is moot. He doesn’t matter. The five pillars for the foundation of the Abrahamic gods have washed away. There was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan by Israelites (the Persians tore the place up though). Without these pillars, nothing remains to support this mythical god; thus there is no reason for Jesus to save us from his daddy.

            It was reading science, that told me that there was no higher power at work. This was a relief, given that the “higher power” of the bible, is about as evil a character as one might manifest in a nightmare!

            “The how the creator made our minds tick…..”

            What Creator? Our creator was the process of evolution. Evolution made our minds tick. Daniel Dennett’s last book “From Bacteria to Bach and Back” discusses how our minds evolved as a result of becoming social beings who a) learned to cook food and thus provide the energy that a brain needs to grow, and b) learned to talk; which meant that we began to evolve not just from bottom up, through biological evolution, but from top down, through social evolution.

            “We are here to harness the creations substances to survive, we have gone beyond this mandate and that is why we experience the creations response as we do. ”

            Again, what Creator? I know of no “mandate,” other than to die when my time is up. I agree with you that our biological evolution has been drastically impacted thanks to technology that lets those who would have once been culled, to survive and reproduce. This is a problem, BUT, we also evolved this marvelous brain, and just as it gave us the technology to address our very strong sex drive, by inventing modern contraception, so too might we be able to fix the genetics of those who have issues that would have sentenced them to death less than a century ago. There is no mandate beyond our final demise. Our only purpose is the purpose that we give life. In this, I absolutely agree with your description of what we can leave behind as a legacy.

          • Craig

            Patrick
            Thank you for the response.
            No need to discuss with Neale as I addressed the response to you…
            I stand amazed, you make statements based on literacy handed down through generations for a specific and peculiar nation of which we were not. A nation that for a peculiar reason described their empowering entity using titles that explained the way they experienced his influence…
            Yeshua is not the same as Joshau. Joshau means God will save. Yeshua is more correctly translated as salvation. Or rather the result of the saving power.
            As a messenger or example of the salvation in flesh Yeshua did not commit the crimes you refer to.
            Did YHVH commit things different from the way the culture acted out in the times of the incidents… No, as far as I could establish he used the same principles the people had evolved into to direct them towards the next relationship stage… Even today. Our mental abilities evolve only through our life experiences not through words. And all the evolution theories have this correct, the strongest genetic attribute will always be the foundation for the next generation in all the creation. Just think of the strongest sperm cell results in the impregnation of a ripe egg cell never the weakest…
            For the above reality I say read the biblical records to explain relationship forming the exact same why political alliances are formed during greed driven wars by or against dictators.
            Yes the higher power is a harsh but caring entity. As you believe it is… for the survival of the strongest or most focussed. In fact I recommend you read a blog by Skip Moen, Tough love. Ignore the other discussions and learn how Skip confirms a lot about these events then from a linguistic perspective he provides some clarification on how to understand the biblical records…
            How long the creation took is only being discovered through our waste of resources trying to forecast a future no-one has any certainty of.
            Okay science is a wonderful source when the results are focussed on and not the reasoning that is claimed concerning the results…
            No, you are aware of the mandate. To subdue the earth, you keep referring to how it is being subdued… The only positive outcome to date is when the results of our subduing sustain our lives. Those that make the living more comfortable have all resulted in exhausting the earth’s components.
            Now back knowledge is what we get through words. This knowledge means nothing if not used correctly. People have erred in creating more confussion by claiming more knowledge than has been revealed. Knowing what is beyond our earth realm benefits nobody. Even the beautiful stars in the heaven are claimed to be burnt out thousands of years ago. So for science and research it seems we are but living a life based on dead matter. Guess what, even the best satellites in the vast expansion cannot correctly pinpoint a meteor collision with earth. And then one astroid the size of a football field will destroy a single content upon impact something no nuclear bomb can do yet we have more concern over the nuclear evolution than the matter circling around earth… Funny isn’t it… Evolution did not have any impact on killing off of dinosaurs… Why could they not evolve to be the small creatures we know today, some apparently did… A scientific claim not a fact.
            Our brain only evolved through experience. Or no we have limited it through selective incorrect interpretation of our experiences which is the flip side of the evolution coin…
            I as other adults have closely studied the growth of my children, the more information they got the less inquisitive they became. The less inquisitive they became the more they claimed the information was the only truth or fact in life. When I remind them of how they were before our so called intellectual society development system affected them the more they say I am old school. So did their real living truth change or their perceived intellect…
            A fact is that more people are living longer through healthier diets than western lifestyles…
            Back to my requests. It all depends at the end of the day what every human being permits to influence their knowledge base.
            The creators mandate was to subdue the earth and fill it. We have achieved both by literally destroying half of the world and more than 60% of the creatures that actually kept the planet healthy… A scientific fact not a scientific deduction or proposed claim.
            Now when you understand that knowledge is good but applying knowledge creates experience which results in wisdom you will also understand that only some knowledge is beneficial. And it is when we focus on the beneficial knowledge for the now and here that we find peace, joy and justification. It is when we focus on futuristic possibilities that the most confusion exists.
            It is not a bad thing to desire a future or promote a future better than the reality we experience. It is a sad reality when we promote a future that places us worse off than what we are. That is foolishness to say the least…
            Technology does not create surviving essentials, technology creates a false reality that we are doing fine… As we are better off than those before us… Really?
            Now if you do not mind. Help me discuss your convictions by helping me know you by providing me your personal answers on the questions raised that you sidestepped to further your view instead of reflecting on the information I need to understand why you keep denying a reason or creator for this realm and it’s progress or evolution as you say.
            Nobody really knows how long it took to finalize the creation I for one understand the 6 day process as six stage event rather than the assumed 360 000 years multiplied by six. O, yes 360 years is the historic biblical reference to the term day and a 1 000 years is an estimated time frame Paul said we need to consider to be the realistic difference in our understanding of what is referred to as a day. Still not the billion of years but a better understanding of the time referred to in Genisis.

            Now an even more serious question to consider…

            Should the evolution theory be the truth I doubt if I am going to miss anything when I die for believing and trusting on a creator. If the evolution theory is another attemptattempt by the oppressing spirit or mindset to sidetrack believers, what do you have to loose?

            You see this religious thing is all about relationships created through words. The bible is not the sole document explaining this, other records are available in non religious societies. Referring to spirits and ancestor interference etc.

            As far as I am concerned there is a purpose for this creation if you believe it or not. If the big bang is the only possible reason, well why even worry about life or death as both are then actually irrelevant meaningless and just to be viewed as inferior by thge next generation. Evolution only requires that we fight to become stronger and better, strategize to be better equipped to explore horizons and problems never experienced before and continue evolving for no reason.

            While believing in a Creator and a special purpose, applying things that history has shown to be the most beneficial, makes this life special not just a passing event.

            To understand that the Creator hard wired our DNA for specific reasons; guide or help sustain. Is far better than creating elutions of life after death which was nowhere referred to in the scriptures, but added as a sword to keep believers believing instead of becoming…

            No problem with evolution but there is a major concern with false applified futures…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well your post finally appeared.

            “Yeshua in Hebrew is a verbal derivative from “to rescue”, “to deliver”. Among the Jews of the Second Temple Period, the Biblical Aramaic/Hebrew name יֵשׁוּעַ Yeshua’ was common: the Hebrew Bible mentions several individuals with this name – while also using their full name Joshua.” Wikipedia

            “Yes the higher power is a harsh but caring entity.”

            You really need to be debating with Neale. He would not agree with this. He would ask, why does a higher power need to be harsh? What do you mean by harsh? To me that includes genocide, slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, murder of innocents, discrimination against the disabled – all of these things that Yahweh commanded, condoned or committed according to his book. Now if you want to tell me that book cannot be trusted to tell us the truth, then we are in agreement, and we can treat the book as the collection of myths that it is.

            You brought up Pascals’ wager, but that’s a useless gambit. We have no evidence for any gods. For all we know, it will be the non-believer, those who used the talents (see Parable of the Talents) we were given, such as critical thinking, logic, and rational thought, who will be saved. Read the Parable to see what happened to those who did not use their Talents. What I’m hearing is a theology based on the fear of a harsh Creator. Fear and love are opposites, so your Creator is not love. Again, that’s not going to be well-received on this forum.

            This discussion sounds more like the ones I have on Catholic forums. I don’t see the connection between your beliefs and the New Age God that is worshipped here. I have no use for either of these gods, nor any others, but I think it might be more entertaining to have you explain to them, why all these New Age people are wrong. Time they heard it from someone besides me! LOL

            And no, I’m not going to answer a bunch of questions so you can analyze me. If you believe in imaginary, invisible beings that live in the sky, your analysis of me would be of no value to me whatsoever.

          • Craig

            Patrick
            Your view is accepted, it is sorry you do not want to dig a little deeper. We have all been disappointed by misbelieves. Or rather over realistic expectations that were not dealt with or answered as requested. This does not mean there exists nothing beyond the realm we live in.
            You have it wrong with love, what I hear you saying rather refers to compassion. Think of parenting love. We moan grown teach comfort and all those confusing interactions just to get attention or ensure the message is conveyed and understood.
            Places, lifstyles and experiences referred to in the bible have been proven through research. But the conversations and claims being from God have never been proven and may never be but as with the big bang theory (no actual proof) it will all depend on the mindset one listens to the arguments.
            No I believe in YHVH. Dig a little deeper than google or theological records to find out what this title means as well as that Joshua is not Yeshua. A different name not a shortened version…
            I have gone through dispensational theology as well which is more convincing than New Age. God is manifesting more through Gogly Love than human emotions and yes, he reveals himself only to those he chooses and I am not one of those…

          • Patrick Gannon

            “This does not mean there exists nothing beyond the realm we live in.” There is no evidence for any other “realm” besides the one we live in. The preponderance of the evidence indicates that this is what we get.

            “Think of parenting love.” I am. What parent among us has to “command” that their children love them? Yahweh does. He’s so evil that he has to command that he be loved. What parent among us would punish their child for doing something they don’t know is wrong, as Yahweh does when he leaves them a lollipop in the middle of the garden and tells them before they understand the difference between good and evil that they shouldn’t lick the lollipop. When they do, he abandons and punishes them. The myth tells us right from the start, that he’s a real jerk. In fact, in some early Christian scriptures, there are sects that think Jesus came to save us from Yahweh (actually, this activity takes place in the firmament and not on earth).

            “Places, lifestyles and experiences referred to in the bible have been proven through research.” Which ones? Yeah, there were temples and some of the rulers were real people, but there’s a lot of historical errors in that book, and some very important events are pure fiction. There isn’t a shred of evidence that 2 – 3 million people left Egypt to go to Canaan in a mass migration, nor any evidence that those same people committed genocide against the people living there. There is much evidence to dispute it, and nothing to support it.

            The Adam and Eve story is completely bogus. The DNA evidence indicates that we evolved from a pool of early ancestors – this destroys the concept of a “fall from grace or “original sin.”

            The six day creation and global flood are also completely bogus attempts for ignorant primitive people to understand their natural world without the benefit of science.

            Abraham is said to have lived prior to the mythical Exodus, said to have occurred around 1350 BCE, but the bible mentions Abraham having camels, which were not domesticated until around 800 – 900 BC.

            There is no compelling evidence that Jesus was a historical person, rather than the subject of mythology. Paul knows nothing of Jesus – and he was the first writer in the mid-50s AD. He knows nothing of virgin births, family, genealogies, baptism, miracles, ministry or sermons. All Paul knows is the crucifixion and he only knows about this from Jewish scripture and his own visions (hallucinations). We don’t get any personal characteristics of Jesus until the author of Mark invents them around 70 AD. . I can go on… the bible is full of contradictions and errors. It cannot be relied on for anything but it’s message of separation and fear.

            While it is true that the Big Bang has not (yet?) been proven (wrong word), there is all sorts of evidence leading to the theory being in the right ballpark. There isn’t a shred of actual evidence that any supreme beings exist. If there was, we wouldn’t still be discussing it. Science does not set out to “prove” anything anyway. It sets out to understand our natural world and if new information counters a theory, then the theory is modified or discarded. Science, unlike religion, does not start by assuming it already knows the answer and has to prove it – as in knowing God exists and then attempting to prove it (impossible of course).

            God reveals himself only to those he chooses – or God reveals himself to those who hallucinate that they have been chosen? I suspect the latter; actually I’m all but convinced of it. Do you think Yahweh revealed himself to Neale? (Neale has little use for legacy gods by the way).

            If you are convinced that your biblical interpretations are superior to New Age, why are you here? To give New Agers a hard time, like I do – only from another angle? These poor woo-woo people are getting it from all sides. They have Yahweh on one side, and science on the other! They can’t catch a break! (grin)

          • Craig

            Patrick If we do not agree with people it does not mean we need not respect them by trying to understand their views.
            Careful of what you say, all historical records contradict each other depending on who wrote them and from which angle.
            I have not studied archeological evidence as even these seem some how to be misinterpreted as newer finds are made…
            Let us assume that if the big bang is true that it may just explain the first light created on day one…
            Have you ever said something that someone thanked you for and laterlater you wonder how you came to that conclusion. I think this is the same as what the biblical authors may have been referring to.
            Although the prophetic gifts may even be more in your line of thinking of futuristic visions from ancient uninformed minds. Think of the Davinci creations very futuristic and brought about in other forms in modern eras… After all we talk and explain using things from our current knowledge…
            Again I am repeating a Word is the beginning of all creation. Be it thoughts utterances etc. And it is only when we do the word that we will benefit from it. That is how YHVH was introduced in Genesis later generations adopted a more narrower view. John 1 reiterates this yet we think something supernatural. It is for this reason that discussion are so important to gain insight… Especially concerning topics were no physical proof is available. If you desired a miracle to prove that a creator exists what would you ask for…

            Guiding all human nature and interaction is animal instinct of survival. Everything we do around survival is using our abilities to benefit from interactions with other.
            And no biblical interpretation is superior to any other.
            I have not yet found proof that the evangelistic books were written by the individuals self. I have found arguments that they were written by the followers of the individuals.
            As for the NT Acts and the other later scripts are the only ones written by the individuals self… But again I could be wrong as I have used limited resources…
            Every one gets it from everyone else that thinks different, that is what keeps humans interacting…
            May your thoughts be calmed and you live in peace with yourself and the rest of creation. You after all do care for creation…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Once again, I ask – why are you selling Yahweh in a New Age forum? Aside from Kristen, I can’t think of anyone else here who is going to give that specific god much credence. There is no way that the god described by the bible in any way resembles the god these people worship. They believe they are that god. Have you read CwG?

            In Genesis, Yahweh starts off as one among a number of gods. Yahweh came out of Jewish tradition along with Asherah, Baal and probably some other gods. He was the god of war. Over time, he prevailed and the others went away, and it became illegal to worship them. The Law does not say there are no other gods. It reads, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” “There are other gods, but you primitive goat-herders must worship me, Yahweh,” he said, beating his chest in jealous rage!

            I think Yahweh was ticked off because Satan (who apparently kills nobody in the bible while Yahweh kills millions) made a fool of him. He told the kids that they would not die on the day they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, despite what Yahweh said – they didn’t. Yahweh lied. The talking snake told them that Yahweh didn’t want them to know good and evil, or they would be like the gods, and Gen 3:22 confirms this. Yahweh got caught in a lie, and the snake told the kids the truth. HIs panties in a wad, he acted like an immature brat and kicked the kids out. Nice guy. No wonder he has to command that he be loved.

            Craig, there is nothing to tell us about the character of Yahweh and Jesus – who are supposed to be one and the same – except this ancient book and other pieces of scripture that may or may not be accepted by various denominations. Unfortunately for Yahweh, his book makes it clear that he is not a good god. The people on this forum believe in a good god, even if She is as imaginary as Him.

            It’s not that I need a miracle; I need some evidence. A better way to phrase the question is to ask, what would I expect if God made the universe? I would expect the earth to be alone with the sun and the moon, and that alone comprising the entire universe. The rest is a waste. I would expect that every person on earth would share the same god. I would expect that there would not be countless religions all disagreeing with each other, but a common god that all of them shared. I would expect that the existence of this god would be accepted by everyone without effort. I would expect an absence of evil. I would expect the laws of physics to be crystal clear and as clean as could be, and I would expect the spiritual books to include irrefutable, basic scientific truths in their pages.

            What we would expect if God didn’t exist, is the exact opposite, and that’s what we have. Our universe, our physics, life itself are all messy. It’s all a hodgepodge. It’s not anything like what we would expect if the universe was created by a being who gives a rip about us, and knew anything about “intelligent design.”

            If you want to learn a little about the NT, read some of Bart Ehrman’s books for a good layman’s overview of the scriptures.

          • Craig

            Patrick
            Thank you for the reference to Bart Ehrman.
            By the do you not work?
            I have but two spare hours a day and have to make time to read the blogs I follow never the less respond to any, yet you seem to have enough free time to comment all over all the time…
            May be I have the wrong life attitude…
            What you expect seems to be the underlying principles in CwG which I have scanned through all… Nothing new, Wayne Dryer referred to the spark within.
            I read we are dust and return to dust. The creation of Adam and Eve seem to be the mindset hard-wiring of human kind so that we are elevated above the rest of the creation…
            Thank you for the conversation, I do not think anyone will change your perception except when you willing try to apply a few relationship principles of which the main principles found in a thread throughout the bible is summarized in Micah 6:8.
            Again the bible is examples of relationship building interventions that need to be understood in the era of the people they were referring to.
            As for the Godlike manifestation of the so called rebirth is the result of the adherence to the basic principles in Micah. Read Isaiah 45 and Job 40 to understand this principle. A mental adaptation for we become what we permit to dominate our thoughts…
            My expectations differ as I would expect God to do exactly what was recorded as I would to protect my children of which I have a few within the multitude of so called believers…
            Not all in Rome are Romain’s…

          • Sam

            “By the do you not work? I have but two spare hours a day and have to make time to read the blogs I follow never the less respond to any, yet you [Patrick] seem to have enough free time to comment all over all the time…”

            It’s quite amazing. Most people notice it. And why sometimes I call Patrick “the machine”, because of the capacity. I’ve never seen anything like it. He could write a book a month, easy.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes I work. I’m self-employed and a big part of my day is processing leads for broadband satellite services and working with clients around the world. I love designing networks and working on actual projects. I hate processing leads. It’s boring and repetitive, and to psyche myself up for it, I “reward” myself by processing a few leads and then spending some time on one blog or the other for a few minutes – then back to it. After years of it, I type pretty quickly. My hours are my own, so I tend to work more than 8 hours, and often have to spend a few hours on the computer on weekends.

            So you haven’t read the CwG series, or even book one? You really have no idea of what these folks believe, in that case. I give atheists who criticize the bible, a hard time if they haven’t actually read it themselves, but then you aren’t really criticizing their god, just selling your own. This is probably not a good market for you. You may have noticed that nobody has jumped to your defense here, and several would love to see someone crush me!

            You said, “What you expect seems to be the underlying principles in CwG…” Not me! I think the underlying principles in CwG are based on metaphysical nonsense, just like the bible. There is no more evidence for CwG’s panpsychic god than the bible’s theistic god. If Neale’s god was real, it would mean that even tiny particles like photons carry properties of consciousness, but no such properties exist, nor can exist – or we’d know about them by now. There are known properties of spin and charge, but there are no happy/sad states, or any other states or degrees of freedom beyond those known – or we would have seen their effects by now, even if we couldn’t see the force (or whatever) itself. It’s a dead end street. The research is done. The data is in. The conclusion is clear. There are no external god, soul, devil, consciousness, essential essence or any other forces that affect the particles of our natural world – otherwise every single physics experiment ever conducted has given incorrect results.

            “The creation of Adam and Eve seem to be the mindset hard-wiring of human kind so that we are elevated above the rest of the creation…” There was no creation of Adam and Eve. DNA evidence has debunked the notion that we evolved from a single breeding pair. We evolved from a pool of several thousands of early ancestors. Visit Biologos, a Christian site that supports evolution. Look for: does-genetics-point-to-a-single-primal-couple

            The great thing about this discovery, is that it eliminates original sin, the fall from grace, and any reason to believe, say and do the right things with regard to Jesus, in order to be saved from his daddy. It’s a real problem for the Catholics, who have no reason to exist without original sin, and whose catechism is tied to a single breeding pair, leaving them little room to weasel out, now that they are aware of the evidence. They’ve been weaseling around evolution for some time now, but the DNA evidence is the worst problem they’ve ever faced.

            “I do not think anyone will change your perception ….” That’s actually something that’s quite simple to do. All it requires is compelling, objective evidence. You may not use the bible as evidence for any claims. The bible is the claim.

            Ouch! Isaiah 45 and Job 40 are most certainly not the god of the people here! Neale has railed at length against this fearsome god. That these passages motivate you, suggests to me that you are scared to death of your monstrous god. My sympathies. You are not alone. It’s bad enough to believe in imaginary, invisible beings that live in the sky, as do most of those participating here, but to be scared to death of that imaginary being, is particularly awful. If you study science, you will learn that this god of yours is imaginary, and you can let go of that fear. As Neale would ask: Why would an all-powerful being need to use fear and coercion? How can he be hurt so badly that he has to punish mere mortals in order to feel better about himself?

          • Craig

            Thank you for the response, Patrick.
            Correct no 100% reading. About 35% of a few, did not keep my attention, as it seemed very repetitive. If I was wrong at this deduction then so be it.
            I was invited to a discussion group where we watched a lot of Neale’s presentations. That is how I ended here.
            Guttenburg project is much more resourceful.
            I thought we were apes that learnt to walk… We cannot have it both ways. Call me a baboon it is in my DNA…
            By the way it is only us human beings that seem to find it necessarily to promote something to make us feel worthy…
            Sorry but 85% plus human DNA is found in the other animals so we could also only originate from different ape species no wonder we jump to conclusions without assessing the reality first… Nicely pointed out, Patrick.
            May your business continue growing. And thank you for this revelation.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “it seemed very repetitive. If I was wrong at this deduction then so be it.”

            No you were not wrong. All of his books that I have read are repetitive, saying the same thing in different ways. I asked him about it once, and he admitted that it takes repetition to get the message across. The Catholic Church learned that about indoctrination long ago! When the synapses fire, the brain is wired. The more paths you can lay down on top of each other, the stronger it’s ingrained. (Which is why I too leverage the tool of repetition).

            I don’t understand the reference to the Gutenberg project, which is about digitizing books.

            We did not descend directly from apes. We and the apes descended from a common ancestor, and that DNA traces back through the genetic path of mammals, so yes, we do share a lot of the same DNA as other animals. A group of early hominids, probably living separate from others, through natural selection, evolved in one direction, while other groups evolved in different directions, like the apes.

            “By the way it is only us human beings that seem to find it necessarily to promote something to make us feel worthy…”

            Hmm, not sure I follow that. I guess that’s true. In the animal kingdom there are magnificent displays of beauty and prowess which certainly promote the well-being of the animal making the display. A peacock strutting his stuff is promoting his sexuality. Does he think of it as self worth? Probably not, because that’s a human concept, he almost surely does not hold or understand in the same way we do.

            I agree that we are driven to achieve a feeling of self-worth. In the Netherlands after suicide was approved, some people with terminal disease intentionally took their lives early, with pre-planning involved to save their organs, rather than waiting till their disease had damaged the organs. This is surely a desire for self-worth, an evolved trait that apparently helped us get to where we are.

          • Craig

            Hi Patrick
            I trust I should move on as the rest of the blog.
            I could only download comments on Bart Ehrman’s writing but need to agree that his deductions are not wrong. I myself do not trust all the records as there is only 11 copies of the NT that persumably date before the year 150 CE problem is that three of these had already added texts in and thus contaminated by the laziness of me the baboon taking shortcut, or rather not being concerned of the true value of what was being done. What followed is exactly what Bart is said to elaborate as a warning.
            As said earlier the referenced individuals did not write the gospel books their disciples translated their words into Greek years later into the gospels we have today… How true the words are will depend on what you refer them to (check them against) and the only reference is the OT that were available so any reader trying to understand the NT should work from the OT as nothing new was revealed the NT just applied the existing norms to the era of their time.
            The baseline is YHVH saves when the followers DO.
            As for Biologos my view is very similar… At least our species is now official 300 000 years old. Realistically that then lets me deduce that 60 000 years are left before we will be where Paul wrote one faith, one God in and through all… And the book of Job will be understood so that the Genesis creation of man and woman can manifest as explained in Job 31 till 40 and summarised in Gen 2. My view of scripture…
            Everyone reading the scriptures will and should have their own understanding. Mine; evolution plus trust in the blueprint in each of our complete being is the progress of the building up to a supreme reality of YHVH’s will found in all living creatures (as you believe it should be) not only the instinctive animals that do as they do as that is their blueprint…
            Interesting view one die-ing entity willingly sacrificing life so that another die-ing entity may be granted a second chance.
            Materialistic world evolving into a paradise if I may say.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “How true the words are will depend on what you refer them to (check them against) and the only reference is the OT that were available so any reader trying to understand the NT should work from the OT as nothing new was revealed the NT just applied the existing norms to the era of their time.”

            Ah, but the words of the OT, also derived from civilizations and gods that lived before the Israelites adopted them. (Epic of Gilgamesh, etc.) Every new god has to be at least as powerful as the ones that came before! I do agree with you that there is very little in the OT or NT that is new or original.

            “The baseline is YHVH saves when the followers DO.” As I said before, what Yahweh? No six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus and no conquest of Canaan – what else does the existence of Yahweh rest on?

            I’m reading a book now called “Did Moses Exist?” The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver.” by D.M. Murdoch. It seems that the first five books of the bible, were written at the end of, or following the Babylonian exile, and some of the other books, probably Job for example, and including major and minor prophets, may have been written prior to that, which is why almost none of the prophets of the OT know anything at all about Moses.

            So you’re supporting a “blueprint;”: in other words, we’re “intelligently designed” by a Creator? Does this derive from Francis Collins’ “The Language of God” – DNA?) No intelligent designer would have run the optic nerve right across the front of the retina. And running the septic system right through the middle of the playground???? What god came up with that bright idea?

            Yes, we were intelligently designed by the process of evolution, based on random selection. The design however was a hack. A series of patches and rev levels. There was no starting over, as with a software program that has outlived its usefulness. Instead, like a software program that cannot be retired, evolution keeps hacking and patching, making small changes in order to survive in a particular environment. It’s not “real” intelligence, of course, but we can be said to be intelligently designed by a blind process.

            You see a beauty in one entity being willing to sacrifice itself, but what of the entity that demanded the blood sacrifice in the first place – a human blood sacrifice of all things? I guess that makes the Mayan and Aztec gods righteous too! (But really, is it a sacrifice if you’re a god and you know you aren’t really going to die?). The idea that an all-powerful being requires a barbaric, primitive, gruesome, bloody human sacrifice, is not something that attracts me to this evil entity, particularly if he is supposed to be all-powerful and could simply forgive us if there really was some original sin to forgive – which there was not. The Catholic Church decided in 1854 that Mary was born without original sin, thus confirming that Yahweh-Jesus is capable of removing original sin without all the whoop-de-la of sacrificing himself to himself, and he didn’t remove original sin anyway, unless we get baptized. The Catholic, and many fundagelical churches believe those innocent, helpless unbaptized aborted, miscarried or stillborn babies go to Hell, and they think I should worship this evil god who sends them there. That is insanity.

            Describe this “paradise” for me? Are you a Christian, like the Jehovah Witnesses and some others who think that the saved will be given a renewed garden paradise on earth? Or do you believe the saved go to heaven, where they have no free will and live forever as mindless zombies? (“thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” – that’s god’s will, not ours). It seems we will be mindless zombies in heaven – who needs that? I am quite content knowing this is all I get and that it’s not a dress rehearsal for another life.

          • Craig

            Patrick, Patrick
            What will I say…
            Yes the OT was specifically intended to change people to accepting the only true living God… Guiding them away from the other non-responsive or dead God’s. So why is He not responding today… I believe He is in a way that benefits His cause never in a way that benefits our cause. For as you said our intellect has developed yet we cannot answer the simple question… Why do we live?
            Yes the OT records are very confusing as they were never intended for us today. That was the choice of a bunch of people who said everyone needs to know this information. Yet we all believe we will find answers for whatever question we have. To seek the answer we need a beginning and what better record than a man made document. Again I read it as a relationship defining record mostly to be viewed allegorically…
            As I cannot say what occurred or was shared with others I can just learn from their experiences so that I need not go through the same pain stacking growth cycle.
            I can truly only interpret and explain what I experienced. Exactly as you are. I just have not found a reason to stop believing in a Creator. I have found thousands of ways I cannot believe as they do not add up to my simple logic…
            The lawgiver… Don’t all institutes have rules to live by. If Moses was a person, concept, organization or movement as we have here can be debated. I cannot argue against the fairness and formulation of the laws in the Torah as we even find most of them today in laws governing societies. I find no wrong in the relationship forming or guidelines as they are basic principles worth adhering to… Sorry have not read the book so cannot comment fairly.
            A blueprint is better to work from than nothing. So I accept there must have been one.
            Sorry but I do not find love or anything else in providing others with body parts including blood, etc. part of an evolving entity. If yours is up its up let go and pass on your genes will only hamper progress… Why would an evolving entity believe it important to assist a weaker genetic deficient entity to survive, I thought evolution was all about the strongest genetic blueprint being carried over???
            A caring entity that humbly serves a greater purpose than his own will do something like that as it makes sense.
            Again evolution we seem to agree is two fold physical and mental. I add spiritual to this equation. The reason being that the closer we get to becoming the entity we desire the more we grow “outside” the current, in other words the more spiritual we get.
            Paradise… Eden, Temple, Reborn for me all exactly the same.
            Hell… Desert, wilderness, dead all the same. Depending on the era you are dealing with. Yes the evolution on all three levels not only two… There are some people that claim even more dimensional possibilities for man. But as I am still growing I will stick to my three dimensional reality…
            The only sacrifice ever required was my two dimension paradigm to willing accept a three dimension paradigm… my view. No other sacrifice. It is this change that stops us doing things for ourselves and gets us doing things for a greater impact. Both good and bad. I need to experience the consequences of the one before I can appreciate the consequences of the other. And it is the consequence I desire that will determine the way I act next…
            Both hell and paradise determined by my response to things that happen to me, a condition of living.
            The only sin I am aware of is me knowing to do better but failing to. What is sin for others will depend on their three dimensional evolution.
            So no not Christian, not Catholic, not any association with a man created dogma. I am a seeker, a person who accepts that what is recorded is the baseline, I need to find an answer for me, then I can help others find their answer.
            Exactly what you are doing with evolution promotion.
            Wait a moment… What is God’s will? You see that is the problem, we all persume we know that answer, while we haven’t even found the answer What or Who is God?
            If I cannot answer that I cannot know… What is God’s will? When you have already indicated that the records portray a different understanding. God is life and life is a growing reality. God the reality revealed in all human natures through all generations. Let us not get stuck on a generations view of God it worked for them it will not work for us today…

          • Craig

            Patrick my reply to you and Kirsten came back as spams…
            But that there.
            On Mary’ pregnancy with Jesus. There are scholars that claim that Mary was not a virgin as we understand the term. These scholars say the actual scripts read something like she was unmarried… Were the scripts after 1611 refer to her as virgin.
            But you can forgive me my sins or hold them against me. Whichever you choose will determine the outcome of any further communication we may have…
            The only baptism that has every changed anyone is when the Creator or God does it self according to correct scripture explanation. Matthews 26 and further are claimed to be added around 250CE…
            A pilgriming we continue…

          • Patrick Gannon

            I saw an email notification of a post by you that I don’t find here yet.

            There is no such thing as “sin” so no need for me to forgive or hold such against you.

            I’m not sure what your point is in confirming that the scriptures can’t be trusted. I’ve known that for some time now.

          • Craig

            Patrick
            What if I do some wrong to you concerning your trust in me… Or caused physical harm. Not sin just a bad harmful gesture… Would you pardon me or desire that I first be punished? Or would you prefer I make amends if possible and you continue dealing with me, or stop dealing with me… Those are the things I refer to as sin that you have the choice to forgive/pardon…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Now, you’re talking about what matters – what we do to each other.

            Sin pertains to God. Somehow this all-powerful being is hurt by “sin.” Ridiculous. While I see no evidence for any gods, I assure you that Neale would suggest that his god cannot be hurt, and is not adversely affected by sin. Neale’s god says there is no right and wrong, only that which takes us where we want to go, or fails to do so. I might agree that there is no such thing as wrong – it appears that free will may be an illusion – but free will or not, there are consequences if one does things that society defines as wrong.

            What matters is how we treat each other, not what some imaginary god thinks about it. Whether pardon or punishment is called for, depends on the harm done. I can’t think of any real harm you could do to me on this forum, for example. You can start spewing personal insults, but that means I stop responding. If you see that as punishment, then I guess you can call it that. Once the discussion turns to personal insults, practically any value in continuing the discussion is lost.

            I’m generally willing to keep a conversation going if it’s at least somewhat related to the original topic, and if it’s an important subject and not all about personalities; and certainly not if it’s about trading personal insults. Being critical of each other’s posts – absolutely acceptable. Casting personal insults? Time to go. I’ve seen no indication that you are a big fan of casting personal insults, so stick around and keep up the discussion. I would like to see some of these New Age people engage with you, as, aside from Kristen, they aren’t going to care much for your Abrahamic god.

          • Craig

            I think of my God as a Hebraic God. Order, sense, relationships… More than that doesn’t benefit us as humans or the God we believe in, even science, knowledge, beauty, possession or even work can become a god that breaks down human interaction. The Genesis stories but specific the relationship between Adam and Eve.

          • Jethro

            “several would love to see someone crush me!” I don’t think anyone wants to see you crushed my friend, they would adore winning an argument with you or being able to have you agree with them. You’re a challenge. Dallas had J.R., TGC has Patrick. Remove the “magical mental radio signal” between everything, put it back into the human brain where its actually at and viola, Truth. Humans desire mystical magical powers, they actually have them but do not understand them and there is nothing magical about it, it’s all about ones ability to process information that they are not normally aware of. That is, if someone feels they have connected to the energy of a tree, they have realized their ability to stop and smell the roses so to speak. they have realized their appreciation for trees or nature, they have actually just abnormally paid attention to a tree. I do it all the time with clouds, but I know I don’t have a connection to that cloud, it’s a powerful part of nature and it’s just pretty.

            I guess I had more to say than I thought. You provoke the thought you desire to provoke, you’re actually very appreciated and it is shown every time someone wishes to try their hand at the argument. When people challenge you, they challenge themselves, There’s where the frustration is really at. I appreciate that you don’t appear to talk down to people as the conversation progresses. Not to me anyway.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Wow. Thank you.

            I guess I think of myself as “the loyal opposition.”

          • Jethro

            If that’s your goal, I guess you are. You have also stated that your goal is to create challenge, there’s not a better way to create new thoughts about something. It takes a village!

  • Patrick Gannon

    13. An awakened species never competes. Humans in an unawakened state are often in competition with each other.

    Where there is no competition, there is no evolution. Nothing to strive for, nothing to learn, nothing to improve, nothing to attain…. how boring and unsatisfying. If this awakened HEB species shows up with a less than altruistic intent, we’ll find out how important competition is!

    14. An awakened species is clear that it needs nothing. Humans in an unawakened state often create a need-based experience.

    Of course we need things. We are biological beings living in a natural world. At a bare minimum, we need air, food, water and shelter, otherwise we die. Neale is going to say we don’t really die, but nobody has any compelling, objective evidence that some part of us survives death. It’s wishful thinking. The human genome has needs. It needs us to meet those biological needs in order to survive and pass on our genes so the genome itself can continue to evolve. We are all ONE – one human genome; individuations of the whole.

    15. An awakened species experiences and expresses unconditional love for everyone. Humans in an unawakened state often cannot imagine even a Deity who does this, much less do they do it themselves.

    Well, what deity has ever provided examples of unconditional love – even in their mythological “holy” books? Which deity has ever actually existed? The Abrahamic deity is such a putz that he has to command that we love him. Who among us has to command our children to love us? I’m not even sure that this fits with CwG dogma. I seem to recall the proposal that “I love you very much” should be exchanged for “I trade you very much.” Note that “God” begins by agreeing that we have needs…

    “Everyone has needs. You need this, another needs that. You both see in each other a chance for need fulfillment. So you agree—tacitly—to a trade. I’ll trade you what I’ve got if you’ll give me what you’ve got.

    It’s a transaction. But you don’t tell the truth about it. You don’t say, “I trade you very much.” You say, “I love you very much,” and then the disappointment begins.” CwG Chapt 8. Is that unconditional love? It seems to confirm that we have needs, in addition to biological needs.

    16. An awakened species has harnessed the power of metaphysics. Humans in an unawakened state often largely ignore it.

    What power of metaphysics? If metaphysics works, why did Neale go to a doctor for his heart surgery instead of using metaphysics to cure himself? Because all the evidence of every physics experiment ever performed leads to the conclusion that there are no magical consciousness, god, essential essence or other forces that can in any way affect the particles of our natural world. It’s an outrageous claim that comes without any evidence, and is indistinguishable from any other religion that makes claims for the supernatural.

    Summarizing… once again, we’re told how dire our circumstances are, but we aren’t offered any specific solutions, we’re simply compared with an imagined, hypothetical species that is superior to us in every way. Do you feel inspired? How are you going to get people to change their behavior by telling them that they are inferior to an imaginary species? Will that actually work? It sure doesn’t work for me!

    If we’re going to change human behavior, it’s going to come because science learns about the brain and figures out how to help people who have trouble separating reality from delusion. It will come from neurologists who are learning about the two thinking systems, fast and slow, and how our slow thinking system, our reptilian brain, our ‘keep us alive’ thinking system, is no longer as useful in modern society, and we need to learn how to use our slower thinking system, our deliberative, critical, skeptical, planning thinking system with more efficiency. Of course when we do that, all this woo stuff melts away.

    I didn’t care for this approach of Neale’s as I’ve said before. Like other religions, we’re reminded of our fallibility and inferiority and compared with imagined superheroes, who would have to be a completely different species if they were to have somehow evolved to their awakened state without needs or competition. Conditions in their part of the universe must be rather different. It’s like reminding us that our eyesight is defective as compared with an eagle’s. Is that useful or helpful? We can’t change our basic nature in any sort of hurry, any more than we can evolve an eagle’s vision in any sort of hurry – and we don’t need it. Who says we have to be like some imaginary species in order to survive. I say if we can’t survive being who we are and being it in style, then to heck with us; but I haven’t given up yet. I’m optimistic that if there is a path, it will come from science, from the accomplishments of plain old ordinary men and women who used their brains to do REAL things that help us all.

    Neale’s god tells us there are other species and HEBs, but just like every message ever delivered by any god ever, anywhere, anytime, anyplace, there is no evidence is there? Wake up! To be awakened is to realize you are being taken for a ride, and learning to think for yourself.

    • Kristen

      Ditto ditto ditto

    • Patrick Gannon

      Mateia Andrei (A true friend); I got your response in email but don’t see it displayed here. You suggested that competition is just a waste of resources, but for an evolving species, competition is, in part, a battle over resources, as those who fail to get the life-giving resources they need, die and fail to pass on their genetics.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Patrick,

      FYI, I have unblocked you. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that I am ready to engage in debate with you again. You’re certainly welcome to reply to what I post, but please don’t expect a response from me—yet. I need to gauge how I feel and react to reading your comments.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

  • Kristen

    Neale and others,
    Going back a few, you’ve stated an awakened species doesnt harm another.
    Wake up then.
    Take a look at 3news or newshub online for today, Saturday. Please stop travelling so much an destroying this planet, and harming others.
    Climate change has hit hard here in New Zealand, Australia as well, constant crap, every week its a case of who gets hit next. My house flooded 3x in the past few months from torrential rain, and shop two weeks ago when unheard of hail formed iceslabs, blocking drains. But mine was able to be sorted, at significant expense and months of dramas
    But others are so much worse off, its relentless, mine were minor and contained to a few downstairs rooms, and I have a pump and wet vacuum. Others don’t, theyre losing homes, jobs and everything.
    Its affecting everything…businesses are suffering as people spend more on heating, clean up, new drainage and other bills, crops are lost so food prices are doubling for the basics, farmers are losing stock and having to dry off dairy cows, constant 100% humidity is creating mold in houses, our hospitals are overflowing, plants are flowering out of season, I have roses blooming now, animals are breeding at different times, natural ones like hedgehogs and birds, the humidity is a breeding ground for flies and mozzies, rats seem to be appearing from no where, never seen before, airports keep getting fogged in, roads are closed with landslips, its just constant, thousands of small changes.

    And dont even bother denying climate change, obviously the only deniers live in places not hit yet. Nature obviously sees it, and its causing suffering to people as well as animals.

    You also said an enlightened person never lies, and practices what they preach…..again, wake up then, be responsible and do your bit, this isnt the time for selfishness and unnecessary travel, like trips to Europe!

    Everyone, please listen, you’ll be hit eventually, but until then, so you really want the suffering of others in your conscience. Karma will hit, and hit hard.

    Take care,
    K

    • Jethro

      The entire world is experiencing the climate change or whatever title they are giving it. It really only “seems” that nobody cares, but billions of people are caring about it that have no idea what to do about it. Just caring about it isn’t enough, waking up is not enough, and most do not understand what role they are playing in bringing so much harm to themselves or the others around them. The simple act of driving to work is adding to the problem. We keep burning and burning and burning things to get what we want and all of these fires have off set the natural balance. Even though we can see the smoke in the air and smell the fires we use daily, we continue to start another one for our personal benefit. We have to put out the fires to reverse the problem. Shutting down the oil industry sounds harmful to most but it would put out the fires. It would bring jobs, it would bring back the small communities. A nuclear weapon is feared, not because of the explosion for the most part but because of the fallout. it happens quick and lasts for years. Oil is a nuclear weapon that explodes over the course of years and the explosions are happening any place a human exists, and the fallout is radiating in our atmosphere to the point that people And our planet is dying, but we’re are afraid to lose a dollar, or whatever the currency in any given area. We’re afraid to lose our ability to travel at great distances in mere minutes or go to the convenience store as easily as walking to the fridge. Should I go broke by parking my car and not working when the world continues to drive and make alternative transportation impossible? Will the plane stay on the ground if Neale or your daughter are not on the plane going to Europe? We need a mass effort.

      That’s MY humble opinion, someone else has a different opinion, and another has another opinion. With these opinions we call ourselves awake to the problem and it does nobody any good, unless you consider an argument “any good”. So what’s your opinion? What does the world need to wake up to and what should we all do about it? How do we get a mass effort started?

      • Kristen

        My mass effort would be one simple message, including every charity and blasting it everywhere with tshirts, facebook etc, millions would register.
        STOP SUFFERING. Stop causing all forms of suffering.Period.
        Neutral message that includes everyone and everything, plus every charity and group. They all have that same message at the core.
        Go for it. Set up a STOP SUFFERING website and round up people active on facebook, get ghem to wear tshirts with those two words and the website name, and set the ball rolling, so any groups can sign up, then print tshirts or whatever with their own organisation name or logo on them. Then after a year have a worldwide STOP SUFFERING day. And other message can be added to it.
        My humble opinion.
        Xx

        • Jethro

          I like it!

        • Raphael

          How about “Stop banging your head against the wall day”? (You have to add a visual quality to the message)…

          • Kristen

            I visualise when I read anyway, its stopping the visuals that I struggle with, always top quality, albeit rather absurd most the time.
            What happens on ‘stop banging your head against the wall day?.
            Is the internet and parenting banned for a day? Wahoo.

          • Raphael

            On that day basically everything would have to stop, because most of what we humans do amounts to head banging or suffering and spreading suffering…we could all just stay in bed and sleep the day away…speaking of, I need to sleep for a week non-stop!

          • Kristen

            Exactly…can you send the bills monsters a memo, tell my household to make no mess, arrange someone to feed the cats, make no laundry for a week, and I’ll sign up. And book me a hotel for my week of sleep thanks.

    • Stephen mills

      Sadly there’s very little the average person can do except to just stop what we are doing and refuse to use fossil fuels all at once as just 100 companies are producing 71% of all emissions .I feel for you down there. I have family in Australia getting extreme weather events as you say. Another statistic here in the UK 75% of the flights are taken by the richest 15% of people. But going vegetarian would have a faster overall effect than reducing air travel .

      The law of cause and effect more like , karma sounds so judgemental !

      Pax

      • Sam

        “The law of cause and effect more like , karma sounds so judgemental !”

        True. But still the next best thing. Muhammad should have made karma the key message, and the middle east would have calmed down. Unless, they really are born with hot blood, like liquid nitroglycerin on bottles, a little shake and it explodes.

      • Kristen

        Vegetarianism would kill NZ, the backbone of NZ is farming. BUT it carries a huge carbon footprint, cows the worst, we have more sheep than people and probably as many cows. Also dairy and meat are heavy goods to export around the world. As a little country our carbon footprint is horrific, Australia is the worst I hear, as a mining and tourism based country. As a colony country of England, we were set up to take the burden off England in the late 1800s, and set up to provide food for England back then…we fed you during ww1 and ww2, Mother Englands orders.
        Unfortunately too many countries, and corporates, have put all their eggs in one basket, its up to individuals to say enough is enough with personal choices. Buying local will slowly kill the big companies, that are all worldwide. As will supporting small businesses rather than big global ones. Within a fifteen minute drive from home there are 3 McDonalds, 2 Burger King, 2 Wendys, about 4 pizza hut, 2 kfc, burger fuel, dunkin donuts, bed bath and beyond, kmart, 3x bp, Blockbuster….nuts! Who needs to visit American businesses when they come to us. Mostly Indian franchise owners for some unknown reason. Shocking carbon footprints with franchises.
        I like karma…in its simple form its ‘you will suffer for the suffering you cause’, I like that!

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Some perspective.

      From the Guardian news paper:

      “While we busy ourselves greening our personal lives, fossil fuel corporations are rendering these efforts irrelevant. The breakdown of carbon emissions since 1988? A hundred companies alone are responsible for an astonishing 71 percent. You tinker with those pens or that panel; they go on torching the planet.”

      “The freedom of these corporations to pollute – and the fixation on a feeble lifestyle response – is no accident. It is the result of an ideological war, waged over the last forty years, against the possibility of collective action. Devastatingly successful, it is not too late to reverse it.”

      • Raphael

        Good article, and very true. “Feeble lifestyle response”…exactly. But again corrupt governments are the entities that allow these corporations to do anything they want, and populations are the force that allow government to be corrupt.

        On the Native American front, the Trumpistas are moving forward with uranium mining right above a Native America tribe that lives in the Grand Canyon (the Havasupai), guaranteeing the perpetual pollution of their water source and the destruction of their lives, not to mention endangering 20 millions Americans who live downstream. And the mining company is Canadian…these are notorious for making a mess, packing up when they are done and leaving the American taxpayer with the clean up bill.

        The “indian wars” never ended.

        But we won’t see this on the lamestream media. Instead, we will be made to witness feigned outrage or shock over Trump’s latest irrelevant tweet. The show must go on…

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          It’s time you start using the powerful tool of social media & twitter etc. to combat what you call lamestream media.

          The mainstream media which in my opinion is not all bad, but certainly corporate influenced is not all corrupt. It does leave out much info, but again we pick up the slack in social media.

          • Raphael

            In my opinion twitter is ridiculous…but perfect in an age of basically no attention span and oversimplification of everything…sound bites.
            Social media is also a great way for government to monitor activists, in an age of “total surveillance”. That’s how the police monitored water protectors in North Dakota (DAPL).

            I am not sure that people “yelling” at each on social media accomplishes much. Action is effective, however that’s when a person becomes monitored on social media. And as laws are passed that are eliminating more of our rights and freedoms in order to protect corporations from public scrutiny (such as videotaping animal abuse in factory farms or slaughterhouses), it become ever more difficult to do act within ever more oppressive laws and a burgeoning police state.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Facebook is an excellent way to promote anything worthy. I have pages on healing violence and a page that only promotes solutions & my own timeline of eclectic stuff. While I don’t do twitter, Facebook is powerful tool for alternative media and ideas. Don’t discount it.

        • Jethro

          It’s not just an Indian war anymore, it’s a humanity war that is being ignored. Once again money has taken a lead ahead of human life. The sad thing is, most of the projects are had in the name of human life. I assume you know for a fact that the water will be damaged. In a time when water appears to be a shortage I would consider the action criminal. It’s hard to understand how politicians/law makers are willing to turn their heads from such a process.

          • Raphael

            If humanity survives the coming environmental disasters, history will be written portraying the major players who destroyed so much for short term profit and power as criminals. I would personally call them criminally insane.

            Native Americans said it best: “What they have done to us, they will eventually do to you as well.”

            The mining company says that their operation will be safe…experts say it will not be safe…but even a 10% chance of accident is not appropriate when it comes to radioactive material and a major water source. This is Russian roulette…

          • Jethro

            Humanity is an environmental disaster. A lazy humanity who uses internal combustion motors to retrieve the mail at the end of the driveway at times. Where do we draw the line for what is safe or not safe? Radio active materials, oil and its byproducts, aerosol cans to clean our windows? Fertilizers and poisons used in farming?
            “Native Americans said it best: “What they have done to us, they will eventually do to you as well.”
            I say: “What they have done is give us the tools to kill ourselves. We have voted and it’s our right to use them and call them good.”.

            It’s not roulette if you know where the bullet is, it’s murder or suicide.

          • Raphael

            Yes…difficult to understand, because there is no lack of knowledge out there. What is it in the human mind that causes it to deny reality and apparently seek self-destruction? Many people have offered answers (philosophical, spiritual) to these questions through the ages, but none of them are totally satisfactory in my view, because each one is too simplistic. It seems that there is something wrong with humanity, as we appear to be using our intelligence to basically fulfill purely animal instincts.

          • Sam

            “It seems that there is something wrong with humanity, as we appear to be using our intelligence to basically fulfill purely animal instincts.”

            Omg, the W-word? On this blog? You have some nerve… Neale will come out with thunder and lightning and… well… give you a hug, lol. He doesn’t mind—of course! However! ‘No wrong’ is a big part of CwG. It’s a process, it’s a process, it’s a process. Therefore be better times ahead. We are less bloodthirsty now, tiny bit, then for some time ago. There is hope.

          • Jethro

            “What is it in the human mind that causes it to deny reality and apparently seek self-destruction?” As a trained substance abuse counseler, I can answer that. In this case, we were born into it, it’s part of our culture. As I said, it’s given to us by those who call it good, we believe it, try it and confirm that it is good. When people start slowly popping up and calling it bad, the moral majority calls B.S. and fights to keep it. How many things in your life would you give up to be all natural? It can be a tough question for most and quite a problem for most city dwellers. For the meat eaters why cows and not goats, sheep, rabbits etc. Why only cotton and not hemp. Why is there still prejudice. It’s culture, and cultural differences. We have been taught something is good and for the best and we believe it, even if we know it’s hurting us.

            I still eat the way great grandma and grandpa did, but I still physically work almost as hard as they did, so I can get away with it. The average person these days does not need as many calories so Americans are getting fat and having to change their diet, fighting the change tooth and nail but expecting change in everything else and everyone else. I’m going to go into a rant here, so, woe’ Hoss. I’ll stop here and leave it at, it’s the culture.

          • Sam

            “If humanity survives the coming environmental disasters, history will be written portraying the major players who destroyed so much for short term profit and power as criminals. I would personally call them criminally insane.”

            I, personally, don’t think any history-writers in the coming future will portray anyone as criminals, standing on a new platform of enlightenment. “Hitler went to heaven”.

    • Raphael

      One of the worse and most ridiculous things are “spiritual cruises”. “Spiritual” lectures on cruise ships (cruise ships are highly polluting), what a blatant contradiction!

      In this age of electronic communication, there is no need for anyone to appear anywhere in person. But many do not walk their talk…it is, of course, very challenging to do so because everything this civilization does or offers goes against nature, so you have to take a strong stand and walk in another direction altogether, and this takes a lot of determination.

      I am sorry that you had to go through these difficulties…unfortunately most people will not wake up until their own personal fan gets hit by the proverbial dung. Many people are addicted to their lifestyles, and like any addict, they need to fall hard in order to wake up and change, and even then, some would rather choose destruction than change.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Most all of life is tainted in some way. Cruise ships included. But my Gawd, These ships are tiny potatoes compared to the most outrageous ludicrous most wasteful powerful institution of all. The military.

        • Raphael

          Very true. And it will get worse, as the explicitly stated strategy of the Pentagon is to be prepare for resources war and to expend the American empire to control these diminishing world resources.

          • Sam

            “And it will get worse”

            It *can* get worse. Whose side are you on anyway? :)

          • Sam

            Raphael:
            “Apparently not on yours.”

            Haha. Of course you are, and vice versa. Only, you’re an “activist” with an overwhelming “enemy” ruining wonderful things in your sight, making you “lose your mind”, at times, getting a little dark, pushing on the borderline to the place called “too far”. And who can blame you? We all been there. But maybe not all the time. Like the very lifestyle, always the activist, in a war with an impossible enemy. One can get battle-hardened. Losing oneself. Starts demonize the opposition, to be monsters and subhumans, getting irrational, making all the “wrong“ decisions, turning bad to worse.
            We need more heart and less war.

          • Raphael

            Thank you Dr. Freud…I feel better now. The check is in the mail!

          • Sam

            I bet :)

          • Raphael

            Sam, criticism is not hate.
            Now since we are getting personal for some strange reason, what is it in you that is being triggered by my comments? What part of your psyche feels the need to respond to what you perceive to be “dark” or “hateful”?
            You might want to look into that, for your own personal growth…

          • Sam

            Ok, full denial, all defensive, and attack, attack—story of your life? :)
            I am simply more soft-hearted than you and gets easily shocked. Hard to figure out? :)
            Your “criticism” is dark in comparison to how I would go about it. But then again, I am not battle-hardened. I am merely expressing my point of view, and concern, that your warlike toughness, and approach, may not lead to that much good. I believe more heart and less war is the answer.

          • Raphael

            Here is a suggestion: you be you, all soft hearted and tender as a dove, and I will be me, heartless, hateful and tough as steel. Since my approach ruffles your feathers, don’t read my comments. Deal?

          • Kristen

            Mmmmmmm Ghost of Mewabe, not like you to lose patience.
            Get some sleep Raphbobski.

          • Raphael

            I thought I had been patient, using satire and light sarcasm to defuse the situation. But I understand that Sam seems to have some psychological issues…he seems to get obsessed by whomever he focuses his attention on, and not in a healthy way.

            Alright,,,I edited my comment and added “please”…twice. Better I hope?

          • Kristen

            Mmmmm. Agree.
            Sorry to butt in but Ive growled at him above! I’ll be the moderator!
            Ill await the arrow fired through my head!
            Or is it too hard to fire with your straight jacket on?
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Actually that was nice (did I say nice?…We can’t have that!)
            Thank you…I was tired and a little help goes a long way. But I think wisdom dictates that I ignore anything that originates from Sam from now on, as I can feel a certain amount of hostility on his part, hidden under his often passive aggressive criticisms of my comments. It doesn’t take very long to “read” the energy.

          • Kristen

            I know.
            Enjoy the ‘nice’, it wont last and is against the rules!
            Xx

          • Sam

            I am glad you were around and could pick Raphael up :)

          • Kristen

            Nope, hes big enough and ugly enough to defend himself. When he and I are nice to eachother, someones tired…we’re sworn enemies, we dont do nice!
            I was pointing out the truth to you, that he wouldnt. You know I always defend the underdog in any circumstances and like people to have understanding, thats all.
            But when you get personal, or make assumptions about people, read about them first….he had mentioned how tired he is, human nature is to be kind, no swoop in, when you know people are unwell or tired.
            But one of his points was right, why do you have a tendancy to assume people have some ‘issue’ or psychological problem?
            All said with a smile.
            Xx

          • Sam

            “But one of his points was right, why do you have a tendency to assume people have some ‘issue’ or psychological problem?”

            Haha, I do? I don’t think in those terms at least. Very far from my mind. But I do like to understand things, also regarding behavior. Being a huge part of understanding life in general. And therefore also to be found in books like CwG, and etc. For me, an issue is an issue, having no specific category, only every time being the issue at hand, to be looked into, and perhaps improve. Simple, straightforward, and naive :)

          • Raphael

            Thank you again Kirsten…with an “enemy” like you, who needs friends?. You are a good person with a sense of what is right and just…but don’t let that go to your 3 heads!

          • Kristen

            Take your meds!!!!!!!!!
            Ill chop two heads of later, spare parts are soooooooo over rated these days.
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I will buy them from you, I have a spare wall where they would look quite nice, stuffed.
            It’s really difficult to write with a straight jacket on, so I will keep it short. Oh…nurse Ratchet is coming with the meds, I better go!

          • Kristen

            Stuffed?…..erm, I actually have skulls, humans tend to, no need for stuffing. Just replace your brain with my spare two, clean them out, open the mouths at rigor mortis time then shove a candle in to glow out my mouthes and eyes. Very cool.
            No need to pay, special gift.
            Youre lucky you just have nurse Ratchet situation, Im trapped with Kathy Bates in Misery….damn groupies!
            Short straight jacket? Lucky you, mines ankle length.
            Oops, this is a serious site, not a circus!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Come on, a little circus never hurt anyone…except the animals in it…but I am the only beast here, and I have been neither declawed nor dehorned…oops mistake, I do not have claws but hooves.
            Marko was talking about the other circus, the one featuring a rumor about Patrick being either a computer or an evil ET channeler (couldn’t keep up). That’s what happens when the doctor is not on duty, everything in the asylum goes to hell.
            I will use your 2 spare brains as external drives, my storage space is almost full and I tend to loose data with the occasional melt down.

          • Sam

            “Marko was talking about the other circus, the one featuring a rumor about Patrick being either a computer or an evil ET channeler “

            Raphael, have a heart. Kristen just had racing thoughts, at the time. Do you really want to bring all that back? :)

          • Kristen

            Hey Sam, remember you didnt start off of that computer stuff, just ended up in it. It started a week or two before that, with someone else questioning people and stuff, plus wierd things going on. It all just ended up with you. People were apparently multiple people, perhaps programs, flirting and greasing up regulars before it hit you….you happened to be unprotected, and a few snowballs ended up as an avalanche on your head.
            I dont think he was referring to my racing thoughts at the time, I was completely with it!
            Just wierd cyber sci fi real stuff that happens sometimes, and a good thing for you to learn, about the realities of behind the scenes stuff.
            Xx

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            I did not reference anything like Pat being a computer.

          • Kristen

            Haha, hope you’re not getting caught up in a new circus!
            K

          • Sam

            “I did not reference anything like Pat being a computer.”

            You don’t have to tell me, I was quoting Raphael. But he will read this too, so no problem :)

          • Kristen

            We are all computers!
            So glad you have hooves. Im a cannibal, but scripture determines I can only consume animals with cloven hooves…are they cloven?
            Or like the ones on the devil in the clip of Tribute To The Greatest Song In The World?..I love that song. But the question is, what is the greatest song in the world? My bets on Bat Out Of Hell. Always the biggest mystery in life, I spend hours hunting down that song, while others are finding Jesus, Wally and Nemo!
            Dehorning…..erm sounds painful, are you a Unicorn?
            Ahhh, wine art at the moment…is it an exclusive range where you hand draw each label?
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Nope, not hand dawn…these are printed. If you get Gallo or Jackson or any other California wine (or Canadian or Spanish or South American wine), you probably have seen my label illustrations…I have done a truck load over the years!
            And I don’t even drink any kind of alcohol…
            I am the devil, so of course my hooves match whatever the devil is supposed to have, along with two horns and a plastic pitch fork made in China.
            Anyway, what am I doing here? I better go back to tend to my job down below (more like a vocation, really), there is never a shortage of heathens to roast to the sound of Light My Fire…

          • Kristen

            Now Ill recognise you at Walmart, multi coloured wig, tutu since Annie found it, just two horns rather than the usual 7 and plastic pitchfork. Is ghay your Christmas outfit?
            Head up not down to find some heathens with your cloven hooves, Riders On The Storm, and find some Ghost Riders In The Sky.
            More fun, and taste better.

            Ill check out the labels..I have a thing for pictures of vines and grapes….or plan B, Im being polite. Haha. (Nope, I am interested, but lets pretend not).

          • Raphael

            No I did not do that one…you can check “Girl & Dragon” Malbec series, and “Shellback” Rum..online…if you want to keep pretending that you are not uninterested (don’t you like mind twisting double negations?). I have done hundreds of classical vineyards scenes, filigrees, etc but these are a bit more interesting.
            And now I will be doing 25 pet food packaging illustrations, for the Purina Beyond brand…boring as hell on a Saturday night!
            You won’t recognize me at Walmart…when I go there I wear a Hassidic Jew outfit. It fits me like a glove.

          • Kristen

            Thought it was a different artist…Im not good at appearing uninterested am I? I love any creativity, no matter what it is.
            Haha about Purina…thats so funny that your art work will be in my supermarket! Great account to have though! My cat food Purina has a photo or a boring cat, is the Beyond range the ones in a brownish paper look bag?
            Take samples to the circus instead of popcorn. Its actually Wednesday, or are you saving it for Saturday night?
            Like the outfit..do you have the dags or sheep tails wig?

          • Kristen

            My reply got deleted after showing up here????? Wtf.
            Did you do the Girl & Dragon art, I know them, or saw them online I should say. Llllllllllloooooooovvvvvvveeeeeee them, whether you did or not. Id pay double for a cool label!

          • Kristen

            Nope, I prefer raw honesty!

          • Raphael

            Me too…oh well, I will leave the please just for the sake of pretending to be civilized…while I truly am a savage at heart (Sam, hold on to your scalp).

          • Sam

            I rather pointing them out, thank you :) I don’t want to “ignore reality” or be “intellectually lazy”, now do I? :)

          • Raphael

            Did I attack you personally, Sam? Do you actually think my comments about facing reality or being intellectually lazy (or any other critical comments) were addressed to you?

            You might want to note that no one else here felt that any of my critical comments were addressed to them…only you. What does this say about you? I personally think that it says more than I care to know.

            This is my last response to you, just so you know. I would rather not engage in a pointless and petty conflict with a total stranger, a conflict that is based on faulty assumptions and misconceptions.

          • Sam

            “Did I attack you personally, Sam? Do you actually think my comments about facing reality or being intellectually lazy were addressed to you?”

            I used your exact wording for fun, to express my own thoughts on the matter, Jeezzes :)

            “You might want to note that no one else here felt that these comments were addressed to them…only you. What does this say about you? I personally think that it says more than I care to know.”

            Lol. And you call me the patient? :)

            “This is my last response to you, just so you know. I would rather not engage in a pointless and petty conflict with a total stranger, a conflict that is based on faulty assumptions and misconceptions.”

            Whatever works for you :)

          • Sam

            If someone is not familiar with the Raphael routine, of changing and adding to his posts quite a lot, one has to refresh the browser, or close/open again the blog to see the change.
            And are you having a conversation with him, be on your toes, as your own replies will pretty fast no longer fit, in the need of editing as well, and accordingly, or else it will look insane :)

          • Craig

            Raphael and Sam
            How blessed is it when brethren ‘live’ together. Willingly disagree for that is what makes a family grow. We all differ and for that reason our approaches to life will as well.
            The secret is to learn and adapt as we go on, this way we grow by helping each other grow through our differences.
            Keep up the good work, the dis will fall away when we find that what we agree on in our discussions by initially disagreeing.

          • Raphael

            Thank you Craig…It is one thing to discuss ideas, and another to get personal and attack a person..this goes beyond simple disagreement and is indicative of deeper issues.

          • Sam

            Very touchy you are :) You have a mean streak towards humanity, and I pointed it out, as being a potential problem. I have no reason to attack you, that’s your ego talking. You will thank me later :)

          • Sam

            Well said, Craig :)

          • Kristen

            Sam Sam green eggs and ham, let it go. Lots change their posts, lots have been here for years and will often type a post with more information, including personal, then edit as they may not want everyone to see it. Likewise people may choose to edit their own posts for whatever reason.
            Youre stooping Sam, step back up, you dont have to have the last say. We get it, you and Raphael dont get along personally. And thats when you should just stick to topic or a neutral topic, and not discuss things personally.
            Said with a smile…but youre looking a bit like a dog with a bone, that just cant let it go.
            Hopefully Im having the last say on it! Pick on me if you want to get personal or need a punching bag for whatever reason. Guys stooping low is not cool!
            Xx

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Remember you have a right to not engage anyone whom you don’t want to engage.

          • Raphael

            Thank you Marko…I made the mistake of responding a couple of time (rather lightly), and it only got worse after that.
            But humanity created the internet and blogs, and God created the “block user” tool…so helpful and such an easy way to clear the air!

          • Kristen

            Hey Sam,
            Dont generalise. Everyone is different with different pasts and different lives. Not everyone supports everything, but without activists fighting their butts off this world would be incredibly different. If he chooses to work as an activist helping often illiterate Native Americans and fighting for the rights of many, when no one could question it was and still is the US govt that took their rights including land rights away, destroying lives by imposing the ‘white man’ way, the good on him. They need people like him, just as animals and other people clearly taken advantage of, need a voice.
            Ive been here for over 5 years and never once seen Raphael/Mewabe getting dark, losing his mind or otherwise…..??????
            ‘We’ havnt all ‘been there’ Sam, play fairly, and playing fair never involves making personal assumptions.
            He’ll probably kick my butt for this, but he’s clearly peed off, and is an incredibly patient person normally, and has said openly here that hes working nuts hours (a writer and artist) and is sleep deprived…be nice Sam, youre the one playing war not heart.
            Xx

          • Sam

            Well, what is the difference between a missionary and the activist? Sometimes one can get a little too eager in the “holy conquest” for good. And to root for toughness, is to vote for Trump, I say.
            I am not the one talking about “foolish creatures, human stupidity, idiocy, caused by dummies, few worthy of Earth, letting things collapse, need to fall, and to be hit on the head by a tree trunk.” Etc.
            I see it opposite. My heart goes out to every hard working person in the world doing the best they can. And doing better all the time. There is no person not experiencing the hardship of living. No need, or any good will come from bringing them down. Inspiration, encouragement, and support, having a heart, is what’s in demand to make things work. And nothing will collapse, or fall, merely transform.
            Raphael means well, of course. But I have to point out the pitfalls, for my own conscience sake. Nothing to be upset about :)

          • Kristen

            Im one of those hard working people BUT can see where we are heading a d what we are doing to Earth, animals and ourselves as a species.
            I happen to agree with what Raphael says about that, adults need to step up and do their bit, not just the 10% who can be bothered.
            Mother Nature and other factors are starting to make lives a living hell, so are addictions, debt and so much more.
            The big picture is why? Because thats where we’re at as a species, we need a wake up call or face consequences…we ALL have to step up, as adults, and do out bit. Thats what this entire website is about.
            I love humans and people, but yes many are thick and slow learners. Although a lot is iq based, the average iq is around 100, and retarded at 80 I think. Thats a huge difference that we can all see SO therefore there must also be a huge difference between the iq of 100 and 120! Raphael probably sees that, and also sees the diffrrence between those who know they have to do their bit, and those who dont, then all of a sudden wonder why crap things are happening. We are addicted to our lifestyles, and its a hard thing to forsake what you want, in favour of what you should do. But eventually we will be forced to, its easier by choice than force. But thats a trait of righteous people, we choose right over wrong even at a personal cost, such as reducing our carbon footprints, taking in stray or injured animals etc.
            Dont drag righteous people down, they sacrifice a lot, instead say ‘I understand, and see how you make your choices and that others can carry on as they are until its too late must drive you nuts, but good on you, for trying to get through to them no matter how you do it’.
            Raphael has studied humans for years, and me psychology for over 10 years…sorry but in human terms, pointing out others pitfalls is nothing to do with your concience…try something different, Im interested. You are incredibly difficult to understand, like a person swinging all over a tree. I see you fly by, but then stop in an unexpected place.
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Thank you Kirsten for trying to help Sam. You are a nice person, your intentions are good (take that!)

            I have stepped back and moved on…when you are tired and sleep deprived (I just worked another 24 hours straight), someone can trip you (or troll you) and you easily fall to their level, and forget who you are for a moment.

            At times I express a strong sense of frustration in my comments. But most people do not take my comments personally, and they should not…my frustrations are not addressed to the people with whom I interact on this blog, but to the sleeping mainstream, or perhaps to the wind.

            Is expressing frustration more offensive than what we are currently doing to the earth and all life? That is the question! Is it more offensive than eternal war, governmental corruption, injustice, environmental degradation, etc? Is it offensive to have passion about a globally endangered life? Not in my view. If guilt must be determined, the person who shouts “rapist” is not the guilty party…the rapist is.

          • Kristen

            Hahahahaha,
            Far too nice!
            Now I can tell you’re in the midst of a breakdown!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            More like a melt down…my sleep deprived brain being like Antartica under global warming these days. I know, too much sweetness gives you a toothache. Me too…

          • Kristen

            Nice analogy, the berg is splintering and breaking up! As you said last week, waste of fresh water. Ill head down and tow it to shore in a couple of weeks.
            Send ya some to wash the meds down.

          • Sam

            “I have stepped back and moved on…when you are tired and sleep deprived (I just worked another 24 hours straight), someone can trip you (or troll you) and you easily fall to their level, and forget who you are for a moment.”

            I wonder when getting tired and sleep deprived, if sometimes one can get to a lower level all by oneself, stepping over lines. And if someone should point it out, not be any troll at all, but one, like yourself, to give warning of “rape” going on.
            On another note, I am sure many prominent citizens looks at activists as just trolls, sleep deprived or not :)

            “At times I express a strong sense of frustration in my comments. But most people do not take my comments personally, and they should not…my frustrations are not addressed to the people with whom I interact on this blog, but to the sleeping mainstream, or perhaps to the wind.”

            Being an activist has its hazards. One can become the very thing one fight, if not careful. I am just showing concern. And how you react to this concern, doesn’t look promising.

          • Kristen

            Oops, I screwed that one up, it did read differently to the intent!
            Now Im mean!!!!

          • Raphael

            Join the club…I am heartless and battle hardened!!!!

          • Kristen

            Well im an elitist, judgemental and a chosen one, or we both are.
            Beat that!
            Shove one of my spare heads on a stick. You may want to bypass the candle for that one. Great idea though, go for it, and make it your disqus picture so people here know as well.

          • Raphael

            I think I’ll use that idea for a wine label as well…with blood red artificial color in the wine, that should sell, no doubt.
            You know, with certain individuals, you can’t win no matter what you say or do…so why even try? The best is to wish them well and walk away while you still like yourself.

          • Sam

            “You know, with certain individuals, you can’t win no matter what you say or do…so why even try?”

            Ah, that explains a lot, all about winning, and therefore very afraid to lose, hiding out :) For me, it’s just exchanging views :)

          • Kristen

            Because its interesting…like below. Strange assumptions, and complete contradictions. Like being afraid to lose????? Hiding out????? Ive just never come across anyone like that. Where does that come from?

          • Raphael

            Personal history…who knows? That’s the madness of the internet: trying to figure out total strangers. It’s a game of smoke and mirrors…it was the same thing with Mateia (was that his name?) Their intents are obscure…and they are slippery as hell because desperate to be “right”, which leads them to self-contradictions.

            I have blocked him so I haven’t read any of his latest comments….for my own peace of mind while I am sleep deprived and could have a short fuse.

          • Sam

            “Personal history…who knows?”

            Of course, that too. A basic human trait everyone has felt, at one time or another. Like for example the need of having the last word, as a feeling of win or lose. And sometimes not even participating, as anything turned into a competition brings with it a fear of losing.
            On can’t lose merely exchanging views, and with the mind of a scientist, gladly changing the position, if coming across a better version.

          • Sam

            “Because its interesting…like below. Strange assumptions, and complete contradictions. Like being afraid to lose????? Hiding out?????”

            What is the contradiction, my dear? :)

          • Kristen

            Plural, my dear.

          • Sam

            “Plural, my dear.”

            So, now, what should I do… Letting you go, as you are obviously trying to escape (I have a heart, you know), or push on you some more? :)

          • Kristen

            There you go again…assumptions!
            Classic Sam psychology….make assumptions about people or what they’re doing.
            Im not trying to escape from anything. Nothing here to escape from.
            You can work it out, you know what you type, Ive said I find your contradictory psychology interesting.
            You said you dont like people editing posts, yet did it yourself. Contradiction.
            You just said you have a heart, yet also assumed Im trying to escape from something or should you push? Contradiction.
            Thats just two in a couple of days.
            Push away, Im just smiling.

          • Sam

            “There you go again…assumptions! Classic Sam psychology”

            Just your assumption :)

            “Im not trying to escape from anything. Nothing here to escape from.”

            When you didn’t explain your claim of contradiction, of which I specifically asked, you are obviously trying to escape explaining it. As one can understand, as it was an empty claim without any content in the first place. You should grow up and withdraw claims about others you can’t or won’t explain, so not to come across as a person just full of hot air.

            “You said you dont like people editing posts,”

            You can’t find me saying anything of the sort. I dare you to, or you should really withdraw your claim.

            “You just said you have a heart, yet also assumed Im trying to escape from something or should you push? Contradiction.”

            A choice between two actions (pushing you for an explanation, or let it go) is called to consider, not contradiction. You are grasping at straws.

            “Thats just two in a couple of days.”

            So you claim. But turned out be just fiction. Yep, have fun with the term: Fiction Woman :)

          • Kristen

            I gave you two examples of contradictions as above. Correction, you advised others that someone tends to change their posts, as a warning so clearly you dont like it…tomayto, tomahto.
            Second one referred you saying you have a heart yet want to push something.
            The entire point was that you are difficult to understand, as a person, because you write contradictions a bit. Perhaps read your threads back. Often complimenting someone, then the next day almost turning on them for no apparent reason. Sometimes it seems you swoop in on something general they say, that then turns into a personality assumption.
            Im waiting to find out what youre wanting to push me for? I said to go ahead.. and what Im trying to escape from?
            As I said, Im curious. I actually have no idea what Im meant to be escaping from, or pushed to say?
            Im completely lost. Just say what you have to say or what you want to push me toward doing or saying. Or is is that you assumed Im an elitist or something, and want me to say I am. Sorry I cant, cos Im but one speck of sand like everyone.

          • Sam

            When thinking of it, I think your new found interest of making up contradictions, regarding me, is coming from another conversion we just had, one you suddenly dropped like a hot potato, where I said, “Everyone is righteous”, which very much would go against your core belief. Am I right? You find it contradictory. You believe in absolute right or wrong; people doing actual wrongs. And if everything is right, as just part of some process, your whole world would fall apart.
            Being the person you are, you don’t proceed this question with me philosophically, there and then, having an instinct, I guess, saying head on wouldn’t be beneficial, but turn it into some character flaw of mine in other conversations. I am not even sure if you are doing this consciously, or just some self-defense mechanism kicking in. This is “a character flaw of mine” VS “your whole world down the drain”. And I understand. I don’t mind anymore. You are in a way fighting for your life. You don’t have to be confused anymore :)

          • Kristen

            What is this….more assumptions!
            I specifically said that we all have awareness of right and wrong, but righteous people will choose right over wrong, often at a personal cost just because they feel compelled to make that choice.
            Again, you misinterpreted what I said.

          • Sam

            “I specifically said that we all have awareness of right and wrong, but righteous people will choose right over wrong, often at a personal cost just because they feel compelled to make that choice.”

            I think you do great.

          • Sam

            “Well im an elitist, judgemental and a chosen one”

            Omg, and you think that is bad? You have no idea what you have in store. Sleepless nights, here they come for you 😉

            Oh, and if there should be any doubt, just a joke :)

          • Kristen

            Hahaha, I was mocking myself Sam. I see the funny side of 90% of things, I think you may have missed the context that we were liking being labelled, its funny. If you read the other comments youll note that both Raphael and I have the same sense of humour, Jewish people and native Americans are both self mocking, teasing groups of people, just in some peoples blood. And tend to mock ourselves even making up absurd crock. We liked you adding those words to the list, or I did anyway, its funny.

            Sleepless nights…cool, I need at least another 4 hours in each day thanks.
            No idea of my IQ, the reference was just a basic fact.

            Im actually a nice person! And no more important than a grain of sand or a fart in the wind but your perceptions are fun!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            “I’m actually a nice person!”
            I knew it ha ha!
            Once you discard your 2 spare heads, your IQ will drop a bit but you will still fly way above the crowd!

          • Kristen

            Hahahaha.
            Flutter flutter flutter

          • Sam

            “Hahaha, I was mocking myself Sam. I see the funny side of 90% of things, I think you may have missed the context that we were liking being labelled,”

            Well, you are just dodging the bullet, tweaking things around, so to not face the harsh reality, too much :)

            Oh, no, are you now also the “dodging the bulletrrrr”? Lucky you, more fun. Oh, look at that, now you also are the “Lucky yourrrr”. Fun, fun, fun.

            Who am I to say “face reality” when you don’t want to? Reality is a bit*h, I know :)

            “you pointed out earlier that you seem to dislike Raphael editing his posts”

            I said as a routine and a lot. Nothing about shouldn’t happening. When you say you don’t think before you write, I believe you :)

          • Kristen

            Sam…again, assumption. Im not dodging any bullets? What bullet?
            Tweaking? Assumptions…and nope, I dont lie, of course I was mocking myself.
            Harsh reality? Of what?
            Lucky yourrr?
            Dont think before I write? What, so you preplan? Im fine with everything I write, and if it reads wrong then Ill correct it as I did.
            Whats going on with you? Be honest. And dont turn that one on me, Im genuinely interested.: )

          • Sam

            “Harsh reality? Of what?”

            For example, my assumptions. For example, when I see you say something that comes to elitism, you are dodging it with humor, instead of looking into it, with some thought, if it fits or not, and answer me back on that note. When you don’t, it can seem you don’t dare to, in case finding something you wouldn’t like. Harsh reality. You know, your whole belief system could collapse. Scary thought?

            “Dont think before I write?”

            Yes, I am not surprised you don’t remember your own words as well.

            “Whats going on with you? Be honest.”

            Just doing what I do best. Explaining everything in front of me. You should take advantage of it—or not. Okay either way :)

          • Kristen

            Haha, Im not an elitist, so when you said I sounded like one I laughed and mocked myself I dont dodge any bullets, realities or anything with humour. I can only laugh at that, I know me, and Im not one. It was your assumption, nothing else. I know me inside out.
            I think thats the entire point here, your last sentence. What you think you see in front of you, based on your interpretations or perception, isnt necessarily right, yet when I chose to explain a couple of things, referring to you doing that with Raphael as well, so you had further information to understand, somehow it turns into this.

            See….another assumption….I said I dont preplan or think before I write, Im fine with everything I write……somehow you have turned that into “yes, I am not surprised you dont remember your own words as well”…thats what I mean by Sam psychology. We say one thing, and you seem to interpret it differently, in this case assuming I dont remember what I write. I nevervsaid that, so where does it come from?
            I said Im not an elitist, you keep trying to insist I think I am…where does that come from? If I said I was a girl, would you insist I was a guy?
            Someone else said a common saying of “you cant win with some people” and you misinterpreted that as them being competitive with a need to ‘win’, when they had already stopped playing the game. And then had a need to assume they have a fear of losing and are hiding out. How does that make sense? Or is it your protective wall talking, and finding any explanation rather than acknowledging they just didnt want to continue the conversation? Somwhow turning it into a win? Was that comment about someone else actually mirror talk? Thats what Im trying to understand, your thinking as I struggle with you, you have clear patterns though.

            Im also trying to understand…how somehow things become so different in your personal interpretation process, Ive never seen it before.
            Are you still the same as you were before the incident a couple of months ago, thats actually what Im trying to observe in you? You are argumentative and misinterpret things now, were you always like that? Thats not a negative, Im merely asking, you know you, I dont.

          • Sam

            “I know me inside out.”

            And is it a pretty sight? :)

            “I think thats the entire point here, your last sentence. What you think you see in front of you, based on your interpretations or perception, isnt necessarily right”

            Of course, as I always say, I’m just exchanging views.

            “yet when I chose to explain a couple of things, referring to you doing that with Raphael as well, so you had further information to understand, somehow it turns into this.”

            Well, you had some views as well, also not necessarily right. Right? Raphael, in my view, would have handled it differently if not tired. But from this, one learns something too, don’t you think? The exchange in itself is the main thing. Nothing is in vain, ever.

            “We say one thing, and you seem to interpret it differently”

            There is no “we” here, other than the bruised ego, turning me into whatever :) And I look at you the same way, how you interpret things. So, just have to live with it, I guess :)

            “I dont remember what I write. I nevervsaid that, so where does it come from?”

            I said that. Because of you saying this: “Dont think before I write?”. It’s called logic. See if you can figure it out. Or I will, of course, help you, step by step :)

            “I said Im not an elitist, you keep trying to insist I think I am”

            I’m pretty neutral, pointing things out, from my point of view. How you react, is like not my business. But I always appreciate a well-founded answer.

            “If I said I was a girl, would you insist I was a guy?”

            I doubt that would be one of my point of views :) Pat, though, once said, Sam could be a girl’s name, regarding me. What do you think? :)

            “Someone else said a common saying of “you cant win with some people” and you misinterpreted that as them being competitive with a need to ‘win’”

            It wasn’t a misinterpretation, but how I deliberately wanted to angle it, as it fitted the situation, bringing with it the explanation of the nature of competition. It was a message to a hostile listener :)

            “How does that make sense?”

            I say perfectly :) But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. First, the step by step above.

            “Was that comment about someone else actually mirror talk?”

            I certainly speak from experience. But I’ve done this too long now to bother with that anymore. I don’t need the last word, as proven many times over.

            “Im also trying to understand…how somehow things become so different in your personal interpretation process, Ive never seen it before.”

            Oh, get over yourself already. You are just missing out; just not that smart 😉

            “Are you still the same as you were before the incident a couple of months ago, thats actually what Im trying to observe in you?”

            Funny you should ask about that because I have asked myself the same question. And if I should point at anything, I am certainly more the optimist and positive regarding the future (true). Maybe you have noticed it? If I start to get cranky, that’s the old me, haha.

            “You are argumentative”

            Within my normal scale of intensity, and the amount of extra time and energy :)

          • Kristen

            Hey, I cant reply much, Im at work, then daughter is due home from Europe..nope, dont misinterpret that as me running from anything, just a busy weekend!
            Re the lasy bit, both all mine and yours. I did tell you to redirect ‘whatever’ at me. You said you do this kind of work as well, although havnt been specific.
            Ive made it clear Ive been trying to understand you, and upyour thinking, thats all.
            Remember at the time of the incident, I said thats how the internet works, the dynamics ‘behind’ websites, and how it will generally play out in the threads or websites. Here it has always been one of misinterpretations, argumentative and difficulties. Thats just the background of this particular site, and the energy of it. Ive been trying to see if this still affects you, or if you were able to ‘get out’ of that web. Thats what the web part of websites refers to, from universal point of view. As I also said, everything is in plain sight if people look.
            Glad to hear you indicated you came through it more positive, its often the other way.
            Have a good weekend,
            K

          • Sam

            Oh, you think you can just come and go as you please? What a crazy idea! :)
            Your daughter is coming home. The best thing in the world. Who need words? :)

            Good weekend shall be :)

          • Sam

            My pointers.

            “I love humans and people, but yes many are thick”

            Calling people thick isn’t love, and it makes people feel small, making it even harder for them to reach up. To say it in frustration is one thing, to have it as an ideology is devastating.

            “a huge difference between the iq of 100 and 120! Raphael probably sees that, and also sees the diffrrence between those who know they have to do their bit,”

            Classic elitism and oneself “the chosen one” to judge everyone else. Dangerous.

            “But thats a trait of righteous people, we choose right over wrong”

            We the righteous ones can do no wrong?

          • Kristen

            Oops, that reads out of context, my bad. Im correcting that now, as it was meant to read as something different to iq’s.
            By thick I mean normal intelligent humans who CHOOSE not to think for themselves, and slow learners referring again to normal intelligent people who need the same thing repeated before they learn. Thats how we use the word thick in common language, when people dont think and end up in stupid situations. No one would call people of a brain low IQ thick, I agree with you on that one, again, my bad, that would be downright mean. In fact people of lower brain intelligence are actually faster learners, they ‘get it’ the first time and have more simple wants and needs, we all know that, no need to point that out. I personally think the human race has become too intelligent through evolution for our own good, and everyone would be better off if our iq was around 80ish. We are naturally too selfish and competitive for the entire species to function with a high iq. Im one of the most competitive people out there!
            The difference in brain iqs was an observation, there has to be a notable difference between 100 and 120, thats just a fact, and Raphael probably notices it more than others!
            No judgements at all, nor elitism!

            Last one…dont distort words, I said the definition of a righteous person is they CHOOSE right over wrong, so that clearly indicates they have a choice and can do wrong, we all can and do, the difference is the choices we make.

            Xx

          • Sam

            “By thick I mean normal intelligent humans who CHOOSE not to think for themselves,“

            I am not sure many would admit to that. So again, there must be someone judging them?

            “I personally think the human race has become too intelligent through evolution for our own good, and everyone would be better off if our iq was around 80ish. We are naturally too selfish and competitive for the entire species to function with a high iq.”

            Well, yes, our time is being all about the intellect, but also a little bit more heart is achieved, just enough to hang in there a little more. I think the fashion of the intellect will pass, and a coming age of the heart being the new big thing, and we will do just fine.

            “The difference in brain iqs was an observation, there has to be a notable difference between 100 and 120, thats just a fact, and Raphael probably notices it more than others! No judgements at all, nor elitism!”

            IQ is human made-up-tests, and not absolute truth, saying very little of the person in general, if anything at all. And irrelevant for the heart. Why this fixation to notice IQs? What you use it for? If not to judge, then what?

            “Last one…dont distort words,”

            Don’t say I do. It was a question.

            “I said the definition of a righteous person is they CHOOSE right over wrong, so that clearly indicates they have a choice and can do wrong, we all can and do, the difference is the choices we make.”

            Every choice someone makes, is a right over wrong in that moment. Everyone is righteous.

      • Sam

        “Many people are addicted to their lifestyles, and like any addict, they need to fall hard in order to wake up and change”

        It can come to that, but it doesn’t need to. Again, a little dark :)

        • Raphael

          Humans are very slow learners. If the following idea is accurate, that 6 millions Jews chose to die in order to awaken humanity to the “revolutionary” idea that genocide was unacceptable, I would call that slow learning…or needing to be hit on the head by a tree trunk.

          • Sam

            “Humans are very slow learners.”

            Compared to whom?

            “I would call that slow learning…or needing to be hit on the head by a tree trunk.”

            You are way smarter than this. Gas or tree trunk, potayto-potahto.

          • Raphael

            Huh??

      • Kristen

        Hey, its not about me, we got sorted…its about everything.
        Why not do the spiritual cruise with the ship berthed on a beach? Id sign up for that…sans the spiritual bit!
        Xx

  • Jethro

    13. An awakened species never competes.

    “Individuals can compete for food, water, space, light, mates or any other resource which is required for survival or reproduction. The resource must be limited for competition to occur; if every member of the species can obtain a sufficient amount of every resource then individuals do not compete and the population grows exponentially.” – (wikipedia.org)

    While that may apply to every species on earth, one species (humans) can grow food where it doesn’t grow naturally. Humans can obtain most anything needed for survival when willing to move, and in most cases, we can move products needed for survival to those who need it. Many tools that set around doing nothing, tools that could be used for many things, do so because someone has put a ridiculous value on it and will watch it rot before giving it to someone who needs it. We most certainly have no true need to compete for love and acceptance as it will have us being who we are not.

    14. An awakened species is clear that it needs nothing.

    “Transparency is intentionally baring your soul to the world by showing your true self to others. Most people hide their essence in fear of rejection, lack of self-confidence, broken-hearted, or lack of fulfillment in life; there are many reasons a person will hold back who they are. When a person hides behind this veil, they are robbing themselves of a happy and contented life.
    By being transparent how can a person bring about a better life? Through transparency, people are allowing themselves to feel their emotions without trying to understand or “fix” them. This is a way to give yourself permission to feel and experience your feelings rather than reflect on them. The creation from this process is a power that comes from within. It is a peace and freedom of one’s self.” – (liveauthentically.wordpress.com)

    While there are needs, things we must have to remain alive, I believe the need in 14 refers to psychology. Well, today, we need to learn who we really are and be that. We have learned that we need to project a specific attitude, a sense of fashion, something that shows our monetary wealth to gain acceptance. We brag about ourselves, our education, we show off our cars and homes, our clothing with a specific brand. We do not Need to have many of the irrelevant things we show-off the most to gain approval, we do not need permission to be who we are, we do not need to be accepted by every person in every moment and we do not need to compete for acceptance. When we are who we are, the part of us we consider weak, we are easily accepted by many and cherished as good friends. The only people not accepting a person of transparency is the person who desires to be “better than” and believes they might be weak in their own transparency. We do not need to be better than anyone else. It’s an illusion.

    15. An awakened species experiences and expresses unconditional love for everyone.

    “Love seems to hang in the balance of fairy tales and tragedies. It is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied words in our vocabulary. Love is so fluid that it can apply to your favorite ice cream flavor or in the next sentence refer to the feelings we have for another human being. It’s easy to understand how so many find themselves confused when it comes to the subject of love.
    This word rarely is received in its purest form. Instead, it comes with a tremendous amount of conditions, baggage, and confusion. Psychology tells us that the act of receiving, or not receiving, love can make or break a person emotionally and spiritually. It can propel us toward greatness or limit us in our capacity to find fulfillment, satisfaction, and purpose.” – (lifeway.com)

    16. An awakened species has harnessed the power of metaphysics.

    “How to Harness the Power of Beliefs. First of all, we must be clear about what a belief is. A belief is pretty much a thought you keep thinking. If you understand the Law of Attraction then you will understand how powerful beliefs are in creating your reality. Your beliefs determine the way you act and respond to every event in your life. It has been said that your outer world is simply a reflection of your beliefs.” – (whatismetaphysics.com)

    If we believe that someone is against us, it will be the truth regardless of the amount of kindness being shared by those we believe against us. If we believe we are stuck in poverty, believing there is no way out, we will remain in poverty. If we believe there is always something to do, we will always have something to do. That can work for us or against, depending on belief. It’s ok to believe we have nothing more to do at times. I believe I am a kind person, though I believe that it’s up to the people I am kind to, to make that judgement, so I believe I am, at the very least, trying. There are times when I know I have been as kind as I could be, and times I know I have not, and beliefs conducted the moment.

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Hey thanks for the share & contribution.

      • Jethro

        Thank you Marko for your kind words.

    • Patrick Gannon

      I like most of that – except 16. The “Law of Attraction” is not a “law” in any sense of the word, and it doesn’t work anyway. Metaphysics is abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality. What is the value, in speaking of imaginary things that aren’t based in reality? In what way is metaphysics powerful? It’s not even demonstrable as something that is part of reality.

      • Jethro

        By focusing on positive or negative thoughts a person brings positive or negative experiences into their life… That may not be totally accurate as focusing on the positive won’t keep you from a car crash, and being negative won’t keep you from tasting the best meal you ever had. If your positive though and practice being that, you may find the good in a crash like meeting new people. The negative person will find fault in something in the dining experience regardless. Metaphysics is abstract because it deals in the stuff that scientists cannot accurately study. Nobody can.
        Having different feelings about the same thing can produce a different thought about it. You move quicker into action when doing something you enjoy and a bit slower with things you don’t, or you say things like, “Let’s get it over with.”

        There is nothing imaginary about peoples attitudes, we see them everyday, we judge them as good or bad all the time. They have a good outlook on life or a bad outlook. Their metaphysical ideas about life radiate like heat from a bonfire creating positive or negative attitudes in those around them. Their outlooks are not fact but based on opinions aka beliefs. Metaphysics doesn’t only refer to non existent imaginary beings in the sky and the psychological outlook of those believers.

        “Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with ***explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it***, although the term is not easily defined. A person who studies metaphysics is called a metaphysician.” “There are two broad conceptions about what “world” is studied by metaphysics. The strong, classical view assumes that the objects studied by metaphysics exist independently of any observer, so that the subject is the most fundamental of all sciences. The weaker, more modern view assumes that the objects studied by metaphysics exist inside the mind of an observer, so the subject becomes a form of introspection and conceptual analysis. Some philosophers, notably Kant, discuss both of these “worlds” and what can be inferred about each one.
        Some philosophers and scientists, such as the logical positivists, reject the entire subject of metaphysics as meaningless, while others disagree and think that it is legitimate.” – (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics)

        • Patrick Gannon

          The so-called “Law” of attraction is complete nonsense, Jethro. This is how it is described by “The School of Metaphysics”:

          “The Law of Attraction can be described as the construction or procedure of an energy force acting mutually between particles of matter, between people, and between circumstances, tending to draw them together, and resisting their separation. Attraction is the magnetic relationship existing between things or persons that are drawn together. We will explore the essence of the Universal Law of Attraction.” (Terryll Nemeth, som(dot)org)

          If such an “energy force acting mutually between particles of matter” actually existed, we would know it by now. We know all the properties of the particles that make up our natural world, and we know all their “states” or “degrees of freedom” such as spin and current, and we know this with a degree of confidence that is exceptionally confident. We know this because Quantum Field Theory tells us that if there is such a force that we have not discovered, the chance that it exists is about the same as the chance that a pink, polka dotted dinosaur is going to manifest in your living room this evening at exactly 11:46 PM. The theory says it’s possible. It also says, don’t wait up. This is pure and simple new age woo, long since debunked by science. Particles do not have happy/sad states or attract/repel states. The LoA, as defined here, has been completely and thoroughly debunked by real science. All it’s good for is helping New Age charlatans separate fools from their money.

          Metaphysics is the ‘branch of philosophy concerned with the nature of existence, being and the world.’ All of those are things that science can and does investigate, and all of them seem to be grounded in real science; no woo required. Sean Carroll’s book, “The Big PIcture” written by a very notable physicist, delves into all those issues from a scientific, naturalist, point of view. Science is not barred from studying anything, particularly when these “metaphysical” things make predictions about our real and natural world – like paranormal events and ‘imaginary energy forces acting mutually between particles of matter.’ Science is not barred from researching and debunking such nonsense when it makes extraordinary claims with no evidence.

          In line with your quote from Wikipedia (great job with citing sources recently, by the way!), I would tend to side with the logical positivists who reject the subject as meaningless. Things either are, or they aren’t, and studying them with the scientific method is the only way to have reasonable confidence in any conclusion.

          • Jethro

            Someone has tried to explain metaphysics, physically. That’s why it’s not working. There is nothing physical about it or we could physically touch the metaphysical, not just recognize it psychologically. Energy is also the wrong word if trying to explain metaphysics, thought is a better word. People think of energy in terms of electricity, so the picture becomes a little fuzzy to most. So if I say, “My positive energy rubbed off on someone and they are now radiating positive energy”, I have dressed up the truth to make it sound mysterious and more desirable to some. If I say, “I spoke to someone who was unhappy and they appear to be happier.” We are now being direct and truthful and it’s easier for “everyone” to understand. We have sight, hearing, and touch to communicate, not radio antenna’s. We can make a deaf and blind person be happier, angry, or worried with a gentle touch maybe, but all of the speeches and body language in the universe will have no effect.

            Thanks for the compliment.

          • Patrick Gannon

            How do you think Neale meant it? I’m pretty sure he’s talking about woo. He speaks of “the power of metaphysics.” He surely seems to be talking about a force.

            The paranormal, psi, ESP, NDE, OBE, bending spoons with our minds and healing tissue with some external consciousness force – all that sort of woo, is what he seems to be referring to. If we were talking about the power of a smile or a caring touch, we’d be talking about sociability and perception, rather than invisible forces.

          • Jethro

            I can’t speak for Neale, I’m sure not going to try. I have offered my opinion on the subject though and it has nothing to do with unseen forces. I stated in an earlier post that humans tend to try to build things up to seem more mystical, as humans love drama and mystery. I’m just willing to comment on the side of metaphysics that is real, the part that is human. Being social is a metaphysical action. We are not instructing someone to be happy or irritated, it occurs through observance and judgement. If I set and pray for someone to be healed from the common cold, they will be healed… or the cold will have run its course. Metaphysics is the name given to your beliefs that allows you to believe one or the other. In actuality your beliefs are conducted by your experiences and understandings, how you believe…aka metaphysics.

          • Patrick Gannon

            My only problem with this, is that, as we discussed regarding the word “God,” you want to redefine it so that it’s a more pleasing and diplomatic term or concept. If you are talking with a bunch of New Age folks and mention metaphysics, what it means to them is unseen forces – universal consciousness, essential essence or some other woo term that refers to dualism – the existence of a substance that animates and manipulates matter. And there’s no evidence for that.

            Perhaps your method has merit. You basically pull out the rug from the original meaning, thus providing a way to let that old crap fade away as it is replaced by true knowledge. Perhaps we change the meaning so God doesn’t mean God anymore and metaphysics doesn’t mean metaphysics anymore. I don’t care for redefining terms in this way, but perhaps there is a value in doing so if it gives people a way to slink away from woo and magic, and turn to reality. It’s like you’re trying to provide an “out” for the deluded, and if that’s your goal, then your approach makes more sense to me.

          • Jethro

            So you finally understand my friend. To tell someone they are wrong creates a never ending argument, to offer a down to earth method is to give another perspective.

          • Patrick Gannon

            LOL. Well good luck with your approach. When you mention metaphysics here, it means woo!

          • Jethro

            Everything means something else to somebody else, it’s why we’re all confused to begin with…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yeah, but we have dictionaries that have established definitions in them. Neale, for example is continually changing the meanings of words from what the dictionary says. That just confuses things, if you ask me. How can we communicate if we can’t agree on the definition of the terms, or if people are making up definitions on the fly?

          • Jethro

            My personal research finds that it’s due to the “melting pot”, America has integrated many languages and beliefs, there might be some cross contamination… there is definitely some cross contamination lol.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hmm. When it comes to New Age, I guess the more loosey-goosey the definition is, the more comfortable they are with it, particularly if they can avoid challenging their closely held beliefs, in the way that real science does.

          • Jethro

            New age, traditional, the stories have been told for centuries. Tweaking it here and there. The Pentecostal view came about on a street in los Angelos in a run down stable. Glowing lights overhead, limbs growing back, not a single report in the news about it. What science? No science, just stories.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I will be fixing a leaky faucet later. It will be science – and I’ll do it right; or it will be a story!

          • Jethro

            If you need any advice let me know otherwise I’ll be waiting for a good story

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thanks. All good. No parts left over, no drips. I did put the faucet on so it turned the wrong way, but that was easy to fix.

          • Jethro

            You have a delta faucet.I recommend delta all the time. Glad to hear it went good.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Have you ever looked up the definition of “woo?” You’ve redefined it in your conversations here. If you can redefine terms, why point that out as a problem when others do it?

          • Patrick Gannon

            I stand corrected. The correct term is woo-woo. Happy now?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Sure, except in the dictionary it’s not hyphenated.

            Now let’s move on to “kumbaya,” which doesn’t even have an entry in Dictionary[dot]com, but I did find this on Quora:

            “It’s believed to be derived from the Gullah dialect of ‘come by here’ although the Gullah part of it is largely circumstantial with little hard evidence to back it up. Enough early versions of the song have ‘come by here’ or ‘come by heah,’ however, that regardless of whether it is actually Gullah or merely a bit garbled from African-American vernacular of the late 19th/early 20th century, the meaning of ‘come by here’ is hard to dispute.”

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for the valuable contribution to the discussion. You even upvote your own posts – good grief! Who does that?

            Hey, when I looked it up, I got “woo-woo” with a hyphen, but that’s neither here nor there. In the discussion with Jethro, we were discussing an intentional change to the definition of a word in order to “smooth over” the real meaning. I had no such intent, in using the word “woo” and many people use the word “woo” as I did, to refer to the kind of psi stuff I was referring to. If that’s the best you’ve got to argue with…..

            As for Kumbaya, everyone reading my use of that term knows what I’m metaphorically referring to, just as we know what you’re metaphorically referring to when you speak of an “essential essence” for example. No definition of either word means, what you mean by it, when you use that term.

            I actually think that “woo woo” or “woo-woo,” however one chooses to spell it, is more scathing and sarcastic that the simple term “woo,” so I kind of like that you pointed it out! What you believe in, is not just “woo,” it’s “woo-woo!”

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Sarcasm, if that’s what your response was, isn’t helpful in moving a conversation along, nor is it necessarily a valuable contribution, either. I didn’t mean to upvote my reply. It was probably because I was tired. I have removed it and downvoted yours, as I meant to. Thank you for pointing out my error.

            If you will go back and look, you will see that you decided to play “grammar nazi” with my original post, and brought up redefining words and using dictionary definitions with Jethro:

            Yeah, but we have dictionaries that have established definitions in them. Neale, for example is continually changing the meanings of words from what the dictionary says. That just confuses things, if you ask me. How can we communicate if we can’t agree on the definition of the terms, or if people are making up definitions on the fly? (Patrick Gannon)

            Why should I not then point out where you do precisely the same thing? Are you implying there’s a different set of rules for you because of… what?

            One cannot infer intent on a written post unless it’s specifically stated. How can you be sure that “everyone” understands your use of “Kumbaya?” Do you have compelling, objective evidence to support your statement? It invokes, for me, images of children singing around a campfire. I must say, though, I do find it pretty comical that you use the title of a religious hymn that calls forth “the Lord” when referring to Spiritual matters you are deriding.

            Essential:
            adjective
            1. absolutely necessary; indispensable
            2. pertaining to or constituting the essence of a thing.
            3. noting or containing an essence of a plant, drug, etc.
            4. being such by its very nature or in the highest sense; natural; spontaneous:
            essential happiness.
            5. Mathematics.
            noun
            6. a basic, indispensable, or necessary element; chief point.

            Essence:
            noun
            1. the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features.
            2. a substance obtained from a plant, drug, or the like, by distillation, infusion, etc., and containing its characteristic properties in concentrated form.
            3. an alcoholic solution of an essential oil; spirit.
            4. a perfume; scent.
            5. Philosophy. the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.
            6. something that exists, especially a spiritual or immaterial entity.

            “Essential essence” is, therefore, appropriate when speaking of the indispensible true substance of “something that exists” when the subject is Spirituality.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I was not trying to play “grammar police” with your post, Annie. It made no sense as written. It was also uncharacteristic for you to make such an error. It wasn’t a case of simply being bad grammar, it was a case of being unable to respond to a statement that did not make sense as written.

            As for Jethro, he was (in my opinion) attempting to redefine the word “metaphysics” in order to meet his own goal of playing peace-giver, I suppose. We were discussing the benefits, or lack thereof, for redefining a word that already has a pretty tight definition.

            Your “woo” discussion, is completely different. There was no attempt whatsoever on my part, to redefine the word, completely contrary to your assertion – it was a simple case of misspelling. That misspelling did not make the message or meaning of my words indecipherable, as did yours. It did not redefine the word, and I dare say, everyone reading the word “woo” in my posts, understood exactly what I was talking about. If you pull up debates between a variety of scientists with Deepak Chopra, for example, you’ll find that many of them use the term “woo” to describe Chopra’s beliefs.

            However, as indicated, and thanks to you, I think I like “woo-woo” even better, because it does a better job of illustrating the absurdity of believing in supernatural things for which there is no compelling, objective evidence. As Neale has pointed out, I can be a bit snarky, so you can consider the term “woo-woo” to be snarky if it makes you feel better. You don’t like the more accurate word, “delusional,” so “woo” or “woo-woo” is a good substitute, I think.

            But let’s look at where we are, because we’re where we always end up. Jethro and I are debating a real subject – metaphysics – and then you jump in and do what you always do. You take the discussion away from the subject and make it all about me. Yes, I am a fascinating and polarizing individual, and surely far more interesting that discussing metaphysics, but come on – stick to the subject once in awhile….

            I think I liked it better when you blocked me! That way I could comment on the content of your posts without having to deal with you turning the entire discussion back to me. I was incorrect to suggest that you aren’t competitive. I was completely wrong, and since you blocked me for so long, I must have forgotten! You are very competitive, extremely competitive, I would even say compulsively competitive, as illustrated in our many debates, so I guess that means you aren’t “awake” yet, right – since an “awakened” species never competes?

            As for “essential essence,” I’ll grant you the point that those words can be used to describe woo-woo. I could have come up with a better example. There is no “essential essence” that works on the particles in our natural world, and we know this beyond any reasonable doubt, so it doesn’t really matter. “Essential Essence” is a synonym for “woo-woo.”

          • Spiritual_Annie

            “But let’s look at where we are, because we’re where we always end up. Jethro and I are debating a real subject – metaphysics – and then you jump in and do what you always do. You take the discussion away from the subject and make it all about me. Yes, I am a fascinating and polarizing individual, and surely far more interesting that discussing metaphysics, but come on – stick to the subject once in awhile….” (Patrick Gannon)

            And how is my (according to you) “jump[ing] in and do[ing] what [I] always do” any different than your jumping in and doing what you always do—disrupting a discussion you haven’t been part of to ask for “compelling, objective evidence” over and over (for which there is an abundance of compelling, objective evidence)?

            I would disagree that this is what I always do, supported by the compelling, objective evidence of my many discussions not pertaining to or involving you. I also personally don’t consider you “fascinating” or “far more interesting than discussing metaphysics.” And I consider you to be an irritant, not a “polarizing individual.”

            I treat you much more respectfully than you do me. You snarkily write off my life experiences because they are subjective (when all life experiences are subjective), and suggest I have a “condition” because I’ve had OBE’s and NDE’s. When I am being myself, openly and honestly, you suggest it undermines the validity of my life experiences.

            And what kind of person comments on posts when they know they’re blocked and therefore the other can’t respond?

            If you don’t like my comments, you can choose to ignore them.

          • Patrick Gannon

            What is different – and quite obviously so to any observer – is that when I “jump in” I’m commenting on the subject, not the individual.

            I should not have used the word “always,” however “frequently” is valid.

            This is an open forum, Annie. There are no rules about “jumping in” on private discussions. There are no private discussions. You’re writing on an open forum, for all the world to see and comment on. It’s called a “global conversation.” Anyone can join in at any point. If you want to have a private discussion, then perhaps you should exchange email or IM addresses and do it that way.

            Annie, I don’t care how respectfully you treat me, as long as you understand that I will give what I get. When it turns to personal insults, I’ll bail out. I’m sorry if you don’t like the terms I use to describe your subjective experiences, but they are the same terms used by scientists, neurologists, psychologists, etc. who understand the role that the brain plays in creating these experiences. There are neurological explanations for your subjective experiences. An excellent book to learn a little about how your brain works – and which might give you reason to reconsider, and actually challenge your beliefs is: “Brain Myths Exploded. Lessons from Neuroscience” Prof Indre Viskontas

            And you’ve got to be freaking kidding me! What kind of person blocks another person, and then comments about that person again and again, and expects that those comments will be ignored? You do understand that when you block me, I can still see your posts, right? A blocked person should allow themselves to be denigrated without comment? Screw that! Again – it’s an open forum. You post, I can respond. Period. Yes, I could choose to ignore your comments, and often I do, but sometimes I choose to respond, and there’s not a darn thing you can do about that as long as Neale continues to run an open and honest forum; so quitcherbitchin.

            Are we done with personal stuff here? Can we move on to other subjects? As you know, I do occasionally agree with you!

  • Spiritual_Annie

    13: An awakened species never competes.

    As most of us were, I was raised to be highly competitive—in academics, in athletics, in work. Both my parents had genius level IQ’s. My mother was Valedictorian of her High School, won the Bishop’s Cross for excellence in Latin, and was given a full-ride scholarship for college by the Toledo Kiwanis. My father was Salutatorian of the same High School class. In their Senior year, they co-edited the school newspaper. These things were repeatedly used as reasons I should never get less than an A+ in school. And, as I was in the first generation of my family where women had more choices and both my sisters didn’t live up to my mother’s expectations, I became her “great white hope”—go to college and med school, become a doctor, start my own practice, marry, and have a large brood of kids…in that order.

    I did precisely none of those things. I did go away to a small, private college on scholarships—for one year. And I didn’t go to many classes the second semester. It took getting away from home for me to understand that all those things weren’t my dreams and aspirations, but my mother’s for me. I also didn’t understand that what drove them was a loveless, abusive marriage she was trapped in because of finances and her Faith, so her greatest desire for me was to first be financially independent, and only then to marry someone worthy and loving.

    When I told my mother I wouldn’t be returning to college until I figured out what field I wanted to work in, it disappointed her so deeply that we ended up not speaking. She felt I was wasting my potential, and I felt I needed to discover it. Even being firm in my convictions, I still felt like a loser. What I certainly didn’t appreciate, and don’t think most young people do, is that for everyone who’s designated a “winner,” there are then those who are judged as “less than,” setting up a hierarchical view of society that gives permission to judge others.

    Thankfully, life has knocked me on my butt enough for me to get to know a lot of people society considers losers—the disabled, the homeless, the mentally ill, the poor. I have carried all those labels myself. I learned that these people, society’s throw-aways, were more willing to care and cooperate than those I’d met through work or church or social groups. If someone had food, they’d share it. If someone had cigarettes, they’d share. More than anything, they all shared information—which dumpsters had the best finds, where the food pantries were, which church gave away bicycles.

    If we are going to learn cooperation, I think we have to start with the children when they are very young. We can teach cooperation at home and in school. We can be an example in how we live our own lives. As I’ve said before, I would rather eat half a meal and share my portion with someone who has none than watch people starve. I know that comes from my own experience of nearly starving to death not so long ago, but it doesn’t mean other’s experiences have to be so drastic to “get it.” My experience, shared, can be enough to awaken others.

    14: An awakened species is clear that it needs nothing.

    This is based, I think, on knowing that we don’t need to be physicalized. That we continue to exist beyond what we call death. That we choose to incarnate physically rather than needing to incarnate. Yes, as physical beings, we have needs in order to survive physically. I trust that my needs will be met because I’m still here. For 57 years, life has provided for my physical survival. I don’t sit on my butt and wait for things to come to me, though. I have to do my part. But underneath is the assurance that I am an eternal being as part of creation—that my Soul continues on, carrying my experiences with it.

    15: An awakened species experiences and expresses unconditional love for everyone.

    In my opinion, to love someone conditionally is the same as telling them they have no right to be who they are. By what right do we pass judgement on another Soul’s purpose? We tend to live on the surface, seeing only what’s obvious without understanding why another is appearing a certain way. Loving unconditionally, in my view, is to accept another as they are, with all those things most judge as faults or flaws or failures.

    Most people don’t understand that I can love my father unconditionally after learning that he abused me horribly as a child. What they don’t see is that, without him, I wouldn’t be who I am today. Whatever his own Soul’s purpose is, and whether he’s fulfilling that, is between him and Divinity. His purpose in my life, though, was to give me challenges to accept and wounds from which I needed to heal. Those challenges and that healing is what brought me to the point where I delved deeply into myself and life and Divinity. It’s added depths to my life that are difficult to express because words simply fail.

    Loving someone unconditionally doesn’t mean we invite them to share our lives. I can love from a distance, and do. My father isn’t part of my present, just my past. My favorite meditation is about loving unconditionally. I start with myself, then expand that love to those in my life, then my neighborhood, my county, my state, my country, my continent, and finally all living beings everywhere.

    16: An awakened species has harnessed the power of metaphysics.

    In physics, it’s generally accepted that all things are, at their most irreducible, energy appearing as particles and waves. Most of us are fooled by appearances. What our eyes see aren’t objects, but light reflected, refracted and absorbed by an object that is irreducibly energy. What our ears hear are sound waves vibrating our eardrums with their energy. What we think in our physical brains is produced by energy moving along neural networks, also irreducibly energy.

    Because all of creation is irreducibly energy, that means we can affect other energies with our own. I can change the energy of another just by smiling. I can send my energy into creation and, when fueled by desire, I can create change in the world. I can send my energy to someone specifically, and they can feel it. I can receive energy, for example in the form of premonitions and sudden knowings. I think our physical future on this planet depends on our understanding of the basic principles of metaphysics and how we affect others and the planet, not just with our actions, but also with our thoughts and words—our energies.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • Patrick Gannon

      13. Perhaps if you had continued to compete you wouldn’t have ended up wearing labels such as disabled, homeless, mentally ill, or poor.

      14. What compelling, objective evidence is there for your assurance that you are an eternal being as part of creation—that your Soul continues on, carrying your experiences with it? Isn’t this just wishful thinking, given the total lack of evidence for souls or afterlives? Isn’t it conceivable, at least, that you might be mistaken about this assurance? After all the brain that gave you these assurances, also apparently left you wearing the labels of disabled, homeless, mentally ill and poor. How much can it be trusted?

      15. Perhaps if there were such a thing as an awakened species, it would love everyone… but how did it compete in order to survive so that it might be “awakened” in the first place? And does it do us any good to compare ourselves negatively against imagined superheroes for whom no evidence exists? By comparison, Neale has made us all losers – a label I reject until such time as these imaginary beings show themselves, and prove their superiority.

      16. Sorry to correct your grammar, but “irreducibly energy” makes no sense. The word “irreducibly” is an adverb, and energy is a noun. “Irreducibly energetic” would be proper grammar, though it wouldn’t make sense in your context. You probably meant to say, “irreducible energy,” but that doesn’t really make sense either. What is irreducible energy? The strings of “string theory” perhaps….

      In any event, you gave an excellent overview of how we perceive our natural world – and it’s all subjective. When you go on to talk about transferring energy, you aren’t accurate. A smile does not transfer energy, aside from the light waves that are reflected. How those light waves are subjectively interpreted can and will affect the emotions of the observer, but in no way can it be said that any “energy” was transferred from one person to the other. Light was simply reflected. If it was possible for energy to be transmitted from one person to another in such a way as to affect the particles in their brain – make synapses fire and release hormones in order to create emotions, then we would know it by now. Such forces would be measurable. They don’t exist.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        I am disabled because I endured abuses when I was too young to defend myself, and because I was competing in a physically demanding job where I had to work harder than the men who held the same positions just to prove I was as capable, breaking through many glass ceilings.

        I became poor and homeless because it took two years with no income to be approved for disability, depleting my savings and cashing in my retirement early, then given a substandard income on SSDI while local agencies denied assisting me. I am still investigating alternative incomes.

        Bipolar is genetic. I inherited it. My two other mental illnesses are the result of those same early abuses.

        If anything, abuses and competition created my challenges.

        • Raphael

          Hi Annie, do you know about the Bender and Bender law firm? They specialize in Social Security disability and get quick results…they do not charge upfront.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yes, I’m familiar. I was finally awarded SSDI when I got a lawyer after a first denial, a review, a second denial, and asked for a hearing before a judge. After my lawyer asked the pertinent questions at the hearing, it took about five minutes for the judge to say he was tired of having his time wasted holding hearings for people who are obviously disabled. The size of my file was enormous as I’d even gone the extra step to be tested by Vocational Rehabilitation, who determined I couldn’t be trained for other employment. When one cannot sit, stand or walk for more than minutes at a time, one cannot work a traditional job.

            I have good news, though! The Pain Specialist (a quack, in my opinion) has decided to stop injections in my low back and has requested my PCP refer me to a neurosurgeon for consultation. Surgery will not relieve most of my pain, but it will stop the progression of a few conditions I have all in the same spot: ankylosing spondylitis (arthritis with bone spurs), two “flat” disks and a third bulging disk, stenosis (pinching of the spinal column), and the latest diagnosis of spondyloslisthesis (vertebrae “slippage”). Of course, it will still be a while. Being disabled, I’m on Medicare, which means more red tape to get the surgery approved. But I’m one step closer!

            I don’t think many people realize just how little SSDI can be. I receive more than most because I had a fairly high paying job the last ten years I worked, and I sruggle. Most others I know make less than $1,000/month.

            Thanks for caring, my friend.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Raphael

            I hope your surgery goes well…try to get good nutrition too, and you could possibly use visualization to make the surgery more successful.

        • Patrick Gannon

          I was referring to dropping out of college. You stopped competing. Had you completed your education, who knows how different your life might have been…. Perhaps you would have been on my side, supporting science against all this woo-woo, if you had finished school.

          Side Bar: Please note, in repeatedly confirming your mental challenges, that this gives even less credence to your subjective experiences than if you did not have these conditions. It’s been observed recently, that people with ear conditions, people who get dizzy, tend to have OBEs more than others, for example. Our brains are responsible for these subjective experiences, and people with issues such as your own may be more prone to them. Neurologists are in near universal agreement that things like OBEs and NDEs are out of control hallucinations.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I didn’t “stop competing” when I stopped going to college. As I said, it made more sense for me to figure out what I wanted to do for work and then get the education to support that, rather than going thousands of dollars in debt to get a general degree that might not even support the work I chose. As it turned out, the career I found didn’t require a college degree as it was as a Civil Engineering Tech/Supervisor. I had no desire to be a Civil Engineer. I enjoyed the field work and was exceptional at it as evidenced by my promotions and raises.

            I would also note that my choosing to stop attending college doesn’t mean that I turned my back on learning. One isn’t ignorant if one doesn’t have a college degree. I simply found other ways to learn.

            If you’re going to insist on using proper wording in our comments here, please understand that I don’t have “mental challenges.” I have mental health issues, or mental illnesses. And if that gives less credence to you about my subjective experiences–which is hard to imagine, as you give them no credence at all–then so be it. I am who I am, and I’m honest about it.

      • AKA Patrick

        My question for you is: How did YOU get here on this planet? Yes, by means of a human womb. But where did the “spark of Life” that grew in that womb into you come from? What was (or IS) IT?

        • Patrick Gannon

          There is no such thing as a “spark of life.” Life is a process. When conception occurs, there is a molecular chemical process that takes place.

          It’s like a candle. When the flame is burning, there is a chemical process going on. Blowing out the candle ends the process, but the material that supported the process is still there. Likewise with humans. When the process ends, the material that supported the process – our bodies and brains, remain – but the process ends. We are dead.

          This “spark of life” you refer to is nothing more than a chemical reaction that does not require any more assistance from gods, than any other chemical reaction like mixing vinegar and baking soda.

  • Spiritual_Annie

    BTW, this was in my email this morning:

    On this day of your life
    Dear Friend, I believe God wants you to know…

    …that you are a pure child of God, beautiful in your innocence — and
    That this is true no matter what you may have done.

    There is no offense you could ever commit that can rob you of your
    magnificence, or of the wonder of who you are. Yet who
    among us hasn’t fallen from the path, betrayed another, acted
    unwisely, fallen prey to temptation, given in to a craving or addiction?

    All of us are human. And in God’s eyes that makes us perfect.
    Really. Just the way we are. Like 3-year-olds, looking anxiously
    up at some elder, wondering with quivering lips whether we’ll get
    a spanking for breaking the rules…

    The 3-year-old is beautiful in her innocence. He is pure as snow,
    and there is simply something that has not been totally understood,
    or fully integrated into behavior yet. It’s okay. We don’t mean to
    be “bad.” And in truth, we aren’t. Not a one of us.

    We’re simply, sometimes, mistaken. And God loves us anyway.
    Immensely. Completely. Eternally.

    Just as we are.

    • Raphael

      I once had a dream, a vivd dream (the kind that feel more real than regular experience when you are awake) of being emotionally close to and having a relationship someone who knew absolutely everything about me, and I knew absolutely everything about her…and yet there was absolute acceptance and complete love. This experience of total, absolute unconditional love was truly otherworldly…and it was a feeling that cannot be described in words!

      If we (all of us human beings) knew how to love each other, we wouldn’t have to believe that this ability is only possessed by what we hope, think, believe and feel is the source of all life.

      • AKA Patrick

        Again, AMEN to what you say.

        • Raphael

          Thank you…

    • AKA Patrick

      AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    We could be just a few steps from our awakening says the blog title. Below that it says:

    Will our species save itself from itself?

    That is a question of which no definitive answer is currently being addressed in the world collective. The critical mass to tip the scales to bring about the larger awakening change seems far from certain at this point. Are we any closer to a solution?

    We can float & discuss a lot of ideas about this, the solutions etc. But will this be enough?

    Many people are just trying to stay afloat, those living from paycheck to paycheck, the unemployed, the underemployed, the poverty level of many retired people have survival on their minds,— most are not wondering about the ultimate destination of our world.

    Thus, is it up to those who do have some measure of income & time to even consider such ideas?

    What is it, that might confidently lead us to believe we can make it? As usual, there are more questions than answers. And even if answers are given, well they be implemented?

    So so very much is going on to distract us, it’s a very strange time to be in. We have a president who seems like he’s straight out of an old “Twilight Zone” episode.

    l wonder, really wonder how this will all play out?

    • Raphael

      Strange times indeed…it seems that many people are no longer grounded in reality, while others try to reimplement very rigid and strict medieval religious dogmas, wishing to go back in time while calling for authoritarianism (a “strong” leader), all of it seemingly because of a stronger than ever need to feel safe.

      Several things contribute to imbalance in America: a horrible diet, a general disconnection from the natural world and total obsession with social media, no sense of economic security, working people working their tails off for crumbs, and widespread drug, alcohol and opiate abuse.

      Have you ever heard of experiments with overcrowded rats in a cage going crazy? It seems that humanity is getting near to this stage…

      I think I know how all of this will play out, although as Neale always say “I could be wrong”, of course. My feeling is that it will get a lot worse before it gets better, and that’s also according to my 1994 vision. Yet we should never stop trying to avert the global disasters that might be coming…we should not stop helping and trying to heal the world, no matter what, in my view.

      • Stephen mills

        This is the crux ….you said ” those who assume the right to rule over us and to trash the planet and abuse humanity ”

        Great sentence that each of us must answer .

        • Raphael

          Thank you Stephen…

          • Stephen mills

            In a highly evolved system an entity we call a corporation would never be able to exist if it damaged the environment that supported the humans .It must be concluded that humans are not important and only the desires of the corporation in this case the bottom line “profit for the owners and shareholders is the main priority “.

            The rights of a corporation that claim to be natural persons must be annuled. Stripped bare so nature can replenish and bounce back before it ends the existence of humans. Are we like a cancer on the planet ?

            Perhaps both the bane and the blessing with the power to consider the consequence of what we are doing.Climate change is decimating areas of our world already .Look what’s happening to the Horn of Africa millions on the brink of starvation .The rains didn’t come the temperatures are increasing plus government induced war . Hell is already here for many.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

        I like to think that the problems of the world can be seen as a set unconscious uP for us to realize our higher potential. Our godlike empowerment is seen by how we heal & revitalize the world that we are destroying.

    • Jethro

      “Will our species save itself from itself?” To worry about something your convinced you have no control over is useless. Do not be distracted. Concentrate on the things you know you can change.

      How often do we complain about pollution yet leave a piece of plastic or paper laying on the ground, disgusted that people litter. How often do we complain about corporate invasions and purchase our needs from those corporations making them stronger, while complaining about the prices at a locally owned business? How often do we complain about fossil fuels as we fill our cars gas tank and know electric cars are available or refuse to walk or ride a bike.

      Most individuals do not have the power to change the world, even our obnoxious president cannot change many things in his position. What we can change is ourselves. We can be the change we want to see. What we can do is teach, and inform how we have changed ourselves and invite others to do so. As Raphael said, “…we should not stop helping and trying to heal the world, no matter what, in my view, in whatever capacity we can.”

      A thought that creates worry is an invitation to become active and change all that “you can” change, not become paralyzed and do nothing but think about it. Stop worrying and act, then be satisfied you have done something regardless of how small it may seem to you.

      If we become willing to advertise our complaints, we should try to offer a solution, however ridiculous, in the same sentence. Maybe the conversation will move from a group of people complaining, to a group of people discussing a valid solution.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Thanks Jethro, you may have not noticed, that my post is not so much a complaint as it is a questioning & wondering.

        But you make very good points!

        Actually complaining and negativity have positive divine attributes. They can both move us into action to create more of what we desire by their contrasts that they provide. Complaining for complainings sake is good in that it lets off some needed steam, to create the space for more good energy to flow in.

        I’m not much of a complainer but I am Master Appreciator. Those who complain only and don’t do or be anything to change that, that, is unhealthy & draws more of the same.

        But having been following Neale’s work for over 15 years on the internet etc. I had to question what we are doing, where are we going & what is the most effective way to create what we desire. Thus, I asked some pointed questions & wonderings. Thanks again for your response. See also my response to Raphael below who also gave pointed comments.

        • Jethro

          I apologize that I did not word it better, I was speaking in general without accusation honestly. I was thinking about my self and my rants as I typed. I thought about this place being the global conversation, not the global complaint box. Offering solutions with our observations of earthly disfunctions would be a great start to great conversations… possibly. Just a suggestion.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Hey Jethro, I appreciate your qualification. I have a saying I use that I made up. “Live in the solution, not the problem.”

          • Jethro

            That’s a very wise quote! Keep reminding everyone that the problem is not the problem, it’s the lack of a solution that’s a problem. Love it!

          • AKA Patrick

            EXACTLY!

        • AKA Patrick

          Thanks for a balanced approach to things.

      • Raphael

        I refused to own a car until I was 28…I walked, rode a bike, took public transportation, even had a motorcycle at some point, and although it was inconvenient, I took pride in not participating in the environmental destruction wrought by cars. I also refused to own a computer until my clients twisted my arm…stating that they wouldn’t be able to keep working with me if I didn’t have one. I held out as long as I could. But I have no television (I consider it mental pollution). You could say that I come from a family of individualists and “rebels”…my parents owned no car, no television, no phone…by choice. I have no cell phone.

        It takes courage to go against the grain…and effort. it is much easier to go with the flow…except that the flow of mainstream society is currently that of a toxic sewer, and it is best to get out, no matter how difficult, before getting too used to the stench and no longer noticing it.

        We won’t find solutions in the sluggish mainstream…we have to look outside for different lifestyles and technologies that really make a difference. There are however some tiny little steps made in the right direction in the mainstream (we wouldn’t want to unduly traumatize people by causing them the slightest of discomfort in America)…where I live for example stores no longer supply plastic bags, or you have to pay to get them. That’s not much of a breakthrough…I have read that Europeans practiced recycling for many many generations before the word was even created…using their own bags for groceries, recycling glass bottles, etc.

      • AKA Patrick

        Too much of the world’s focus is on problems; not solutions. Let’s turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones. Together we can do it.

        • Jethro

          Well hey there Patrick, good to see your still around! Stumbling blocks to stepping stones sounds great. When we are hungry we eat, when we step in dog crap, we learn to watch where we step and remove the mess from where we move. Every problem has a solution, why not discuss them however silly they may seem. It will most certainly be a “we” that solves anything as “I” can’t seem to solve many of my problems without a “we”.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Does it make any sense to try to abandon all the gloom and despair talk? I have certainly done so myself in the past. Recently I’ve been reading a bit about overpopulation, and there is very encouraging news. All over the world, birth rates are falling. 2 kids per parent is almost the norm, down from a half dozen per parent just decades ago. There are still problems in the poorest and least educated areas, places where the Church still holds power, such as much of Africa, but everywhere else, the situation is improving – even in Muslim countries.

      Some of the falling reproductive capacity may be the result of bad diet and things in our environment, but hey – if it works, it works and it means natural selection is still active. Those who are obese and don’t take care of their health, lose or reduce their ability to reproduce, and in the grand scheme of things – that’s good. The people who are healthy, will maintain reproductive capability and out-reproduce the slugs, passing along their more beneficial genes. Over extended time periods, it will affect the whole genome.

      What are some positive things? The fact that most people are using contraception tells us that at some level, people are telling religions to go pee up a rope. This is very encouraging. We still have a rough period ahead, but it looks like light at the end of the tunnel with regard to our overpopulation problem. Science continues to make amazing progress. I read that we may have come up with a very efficient way to strip hydrogen out of H2O (water), and hydrogen is a clean energy source and water is ubiquitous. We are developing new space technology that will let us go elsewhere for resources, and give us the ability to get the genome off of this planet so its “backed up.” We’ve surely stopped evolving biologically to some extent, since we no longer cull the weak and infirm, but we just announced that we genetically modified embryos, so the evolution that gave us the brains to develop contraception in order to manage our strong sexual drives that allowed our species to survive, is now giving us the technology and power to go in and fix the genes of people who a blind and impersonal natural selection would have eliminated in the past.

      The world is more connected today than ever in history. Nothing is ever accomplished without communication, and we now have global communication. Information flow has always been from one to many – parent to children, teacher to students, clergy to sheeple, politicians to citizens, but today communication is many-to-many and any-to-any. It is very difficult to control the flow of information and this leads to freedom, independent thought, and new ideas. The freedom of information on the internet is slowly crushing the Abrahamic Church, and that will include New Age religion as well. Individually we may be getting dumber, but collectively we may get smarter. In the past it was individuals who advanced knowledge, but today it is collectives of people working together, knowingly or unknowingly, who are giving us the new technology and insights into how our natural world works. It’s a pretty exciting time if you’re paying attention.

      We’ve been pessimistic since the dawn of time. Jesus and Paul both predicted end times within a generation. They thought the world couldn’t possibly get any worse than it was… but we’re still here, still making progress. It might be beneficial to stop, take a breath and look back at what we’ve accomplished in order to gain the confidence we need to keep moving forward. I object to Neale’s current columns, because the goal seems to be to make us feel inferior to imagined beings, and to show us by comparison where we are lacking. I don’t see where it is beneficial to say that we could solve all our problems, if only we could be like these imaginary beings. We’ve had imaginary beings, these superheroes to compare ourselves with – gods, devils, angels, fairies for thousands of years – how have they helped us? Waking up is about facing reality, not hiding from it under a blanket of woo.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Hey Patrick, thanks for the share, I agree with much of the progress we’ve made and are making, which is accelerating at an alarming rate.

        However, technology should always take a backseat to the environment & nature. And of course, we would benefit to work and play with it, not against it.

        We are also waking uP more and more so critical mass is still a possibility, but I have not seen it. But the seeds and little trees and orchards are there.

        I was wondering if I’d get responses for my above post, since it’s quite unusual for people to see me post in what appears a complaining manner.

        But as I mention to Jethro, questioning & wondering are of a different flavor than outright anger complaint. Mine I felt, was more thoughtful, being one of the senior posters on this blog and one who works & plays to be a model to others, I word things carefully. Cheers.

        • Patrick Gannon

          If technology takes a back seat to the environment and nature, there may not be any environment and nature left. Our best bet for saving both is advanced technology to produce energy without polluting the environment, to develop building materials that don’t require cutting down all the trees, new growing techniques and places, so we don’t have to keep clear-cutting to make farmland, accessing resources in space to replace minerals we have depleted here, better vaccines and contraceptives to continue to stabilize the population growth, new technologies to collect and recycle the wastes we’ve already created, desalinization to stop the depletion of underground reservoirs… I can go on… Kumbaya, in my view, will not save the environment and nature. It’s going to take hard, cold science…. or a virus or something that kills us all off. That’s about the only other choice I can think of to save the environment and nature (which we are a part of).

          Sorry, but I must disagree. Technology has to be in the driver’s seat if we are to have a chance. It’s a double-edged sword, of course. Technology can be misused to kill us all far more quickly than the ongoing erosion of the environment, but hey – we have to play to win. To win our continued existence, that is.

          I think we have different ideas about “waking up.” To me that is based on embracing reality, our natural world, learning to use critical thinking, logic, and insisting on compelling, objective evidence for outrageous claims. I think that’s happening, slowly but surely.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            One example nuclear weapons (technology) could wipe us all out.

            Nature will go on one way or another, we may not. Nature rules, not man. Everything we have to survive & be happyl comes from nature. It deserves our most sacred respect.

            Technology unchecked may be our undoing. The balance with nature is what is needed.

          • Raphael

            I agree…we must learn to live in a state of harmony, cooperation and balance with nature. The correct type of technology can help us do this of course, and hopefully will,, but without the spiritual perspective of harmony and unity, technology will merely be used to attempt to perpetuate the antagonistic “conquest” and “control” of what some still believe to be a hostile, dangerous, meaningless and separate natural world.

            To put it in simpler terms, if we do not learn to love the earth we will destroy it (or more exactly we will be eliminated by a natural world that ultimately eliminates everything that becomes dangerously out of balance). We must be less centered on ourselves (humans) and learn to include all life in all we think and do.

            “All my relations”…that’s what it means…Mitakuye Oyasin…the circle of life. This is not “kumbaya” as Patrick might say, but the proper perspective and mindset from which correct actions would emerge, and correct technology would be created and implemented that would violate neither humanity nor the natural world.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Well said!

          • Patrick Gannon

            I don’t see any concrete solutions. I see Kumbaya. A handful of New Age people aren’t going to solve the problems of 7 billion people by enforcing some sort of proper perspective and mindset. I see no feasible way in which this perspective and mindset (who gets to decide what “proper” is?), might be funneled to 7 billion people, but I’m sure interested to hear how this might happen. In the meantime, developing technical solutions to relieve the demands on earth’s resources, is a much more specific proposal, and one that can be taken seriously by observing how much science and technology have achieved already.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Speaking of technology to the rescue again, I just read that we are getting very close to providing lab grown meat that won’t come from cows, but will taste as good and be perhaps even more nutritious. Beef consumption is very difficult on the environment, using a vast amount of resources for a little protein. New Age people are never going to convince 7 billion people to become vegetarians, but science may find a way to feed those people the beef they want, without contributing to the destruction of the environment.

            Week after week, we read of ways science is working to solve our problems, but I never read about any significant,societal problems being solved by Kumbaya or woo-woo.

          • Raphael

            Why don’t you like woo-woo? With the right sauce and side dish, this exotic treat can be quite delectable!

            I don’t believe it has to be one or the other…new age or technology. By the way Mitakuye Oyasin is not new age, it is very ancient. It is a spiritual perspective that essentially states that all life is related, interdependent, interconnected. An other word for it is common sense.

            A science and technologies that are developed from this premise will have the proper perspective, meaning the vision that will allow life to go on and humanity to avert self destruction.

            I think humanity would do well to keep things simple, clear and logical…rather than getting lost in useless concepts.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Keep in mind that “science” is a process. Science cannot place itself anywhere. Scientists might place themselves somewhere or other, but most would be out of a job if they had to depend on funding from the public, when the “public” consists of anti-science politicians like half the Republicans in Congress, not to mention our science-hating VP.

            You’re blaming the government for doing what we the people elected them to do. If we don’t like what they are doing we can vote them out. Your argument is not with the government; it’s with your fellow citizens. If you want to change the government, you’ve got to change the citizens, and right now, I think the only thing that will bring them together is a common threat; but our future extinction is not quite real enough to be perceived as a threat yet.

            I don’t care what kind of sauce you put on it, I’ll take a pass on woo-woo! (Annie made me change from woo to woo-woo).

            Two questions for you Raphael, if you feel like answering:

            1) Have you ever worked for a large corporation?
            2) Have you spent any extended time period living in primitive circumstances in the wild?

          • Raphael

            No I haven’t ever worked in a large corporation. I have been working independently all my life except for 3 early years on employment, just after art school. I have however refused to take assignments from certain corporations whose activities and agenda I condemn.

            Yes I have lived in the wilderness, once 3 months at a time. I also have extended experience being in the outdoors. I didn’t get hurt, did nor get bitten, did not give my blood to ticks or other insects, stayed clean, and did not starve. I did it as a spiritual or mystical rather than a purely physical survival experience, to connect with the earth and all life as well as feel what actual freedom is like, as compared to the illusion of freedom we experience in the human world.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for sharing. I wanted some idea of how much you really know about nature, and how much experience you’ve had being in it – much less than myself, but it helps explain to me where you are coming from.

            My concern with your blanket condemnation of corporations is the same problem I have with atheists who give a blanket condemnation of the bible, without having ever read it themselves.

            I think you might consider the possibility that not all corporations are evil slug-lords out to decimate the planet for their own benefit. I have worked for large corporations that provided solutions for humanity, and in which everyone from the janitor to the CEO worked as a team to succeed. A couple of those corporations helped build the global network that we are communicating on. I remember a great deal of community participation. At one company, we rapidly adopted the dissolving, environmental shipping peanuts as they became available, even though it increased shipping costs. I think you’re condemning something you’ve never experienced, and I’m not sure that’s completely fair.

          • Raphael

            I am not sure that you understand where I am coming from. The fact that you mention that you have a lot more outdoor experience than I do without knowing me or the full extent of my experience tells me that you are either naturally competitive (I find competition to be ridiculous and as pointless as any pissing contest) or that you seek to be dismissive. However…your perception that people who love nature are fuzzy romantic dreamers who have never dealt with the harsh realities of the natural world is not that original.

            As far as your corporate experience, what was your corporation selling, and where was the product manufactured? How much were the workers paid? What was the cost of such manufactured product on the environment?

            I am not saying that all corporations are bad…just as all banks are not bad. But most are. The nature of many corporations is to put profit before people and before the environment, and even to break the law and pay ridiculously low fines when caught.

            It’s alright Patrick, we don’t have to agree…although we all speak the same language here, we all live in different worlds according to our backgrounds, expectations, perceptions, preconceptions and experiences.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Raphael, I apologize. I saw “Yes I have lived in the wilderness, once 3 months at a time when I was 18.” But for some reason I completely missed, “I also have extended experience being in the outdoors.” I thought the extent of your outdoors experience was that 3 month stint, and clearly I have more outdoors experience than that! I must have been reading too fast. My bad.

            What I wanted, was to see if you had enough experience to understand that living as an indigenous native, in what is now America, 300 years ago, was probably not as pleasant and idyllic an experience as might be imagined. I think a certain amount of outdoors misery is required in order to have a real understanding of the challenges they faced. You haven’t lived till you’ve dragged a good sized deer a couple miles. Surely many of them would have given up their Tepees for indoor plumbing and a hot shower!

            You yearn to return to those times, but do you yearn to kill off a couple hundred million people in order to make that possible? Why get wrapped up in a vision or ideal that can never happen, without a huge loss of life first? It may happen. We may get nuked or suffer a virus that kills off most people, just as the natives here were killed off by smallpox and other diseases they hadn’t developed an immunity to, but that’s the cost of returning to your romantic wonderworld of nature, isn’t it?

            Now, I too can comment on your presumptions about me when you say, “This is a philosophical nuance that is missed by many people who, like yourself, celebrate the technological achievements that an attempted conquest of nature has facilitated at great costs to the environment.” That is an unfair and incorrect charge. Of course I do not “celebrate” a “conquest on nature” and you are as out of line to suggest that, as I would have been to suggest that you know nothing of nature – had I read your comment more carefully. Let us agree to try and avoid making assumptions about the other based on insufficient evidence. As you may recall, I have described to you some of the things I do to support nature in my little piece of it, and a part of my heart is torn out with every new house that goes up in the area. I’ve lost access to hundreds of acres that I cherished, but I obviously wouldn’t be willing to kill the people who live there now in order to get it back, so I don’t fixate on it.

            I worked for a handful of high tech companies that introduced and developed the technology we use to communicate here. Some merged with others. A partial list: Bridge/3Com, Wellfleet/Bay Networks/Nortel, FORE/Marconi, and a couple startups that failed to start. In the end, Cisco won. Back in the 80s we all used modems over phone lines, then routers were designed and an internet began to take shape, then higher speed technologies and switches such as ATM and MPLS. At the same time, local network technology was being developed, and old timers will remember technologies that faded away like Token Ring, ArcNet, FDDI, as well as wide area technologies, ISDN, SMDS, Frame Relay that were all part of an evolution that brings us to where we are today. I worked for companies that developed and deployed those solutions. I sold the 4th generation of the internet backbone to a company known as UUNET who became MCI who became Verizon. That network has long since been replaced, probably a few times. It was an exciting, amazing time. It’s all kind of flattened out now. I’ve been self-employed for the last 17 years, selling networking connectivity via satellite, mostly to 3rd world countries, working to reduce the digital divide, and to provide new opportunities for people in emerging economies to join “the global conversation.” Neale talks about a global conversation – I work to make it possible.

            None of those companies I worked for was corrupt as far as I knew. We worked together toward a common goal.. When I was selling that huge network to UUNET, it was like every person at headquarters was there to do whatever I needed to help get that business. You just can’t buy the feeling something like that can give you; and it passes through to the client who feels that they are gaining a partner, rather than simply buying a product. That company, UUNET was equally fascinating. The first time I called on them, I showed up in typical coat and tie. The guy who was to be my primary contact told me if I showed up in a tie again, he would cut it off with scissors. He rode a Harley, so I began to ride my Harley from time to time to make sales calls on him. They loved it. What was so great though, was you walked down the rows of cubicles filled with Jews, Muslims, Indians, Pakistanis, Asians, Americans, etc. etc., you name it – and they were all working together as hard as they could to deliver an internet to the rest of us. Maybe on their way out of the parking lot at night they would turn on each other and revert to religious, political or national hate – but I never saw it. That corporation, like the US military was a place of integration and teamwork. I imagine that it must be just as special to work for one of Elon Musk’s companies. Watching the employees gathered to view the landing of a first stage rocket on a floating platform, and seeing the jubilation, and camaraderie, and hugging and shaking hands – I miss that. I don’t get that working for myself. If you want to pick out select corporations to denigrate, that’s perfectly fair, but to speak as you often do, lumping them all together as one corrupt bunch of greedy capitalists – well you’re just flat out wrong, and your only excuse is that you’ve never had the experience yourself.

            Just as I was concerned that your view of nature was overly romantic, I am also concerned that your view of corporations is overly biased to assume they are all evil, and that just isn’t so. Everything is a balance; there is good and bad, but I think it’s mostly good, and articles like this one from Neale that remind us of how bad it is, and how inept we are as unawakened species, compared with imaginary superhero beings is a real downer and isn’t taking us where we need to go. We need to get that feeling that all those employees working towards a common goal had, and if we can get the kind of leadership that can make that happen, we might have a chance to continue to be amazing.

          • AKA Patrick

            I personally HAVE experience with corporations. In fact I’m involved in a law suit with one for infringing my civil rights. Their lead people are blind to reality, plus they don’t seem to really care about their employees, though they say they do.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes, nuclear weapons can knock us all out, but that doesn’t make nuclear technology bad. It can provide the power for a US aircraft carrier to pull up to the harbor in Haiti, and provide power for a city that has been decimated by earthquakes. Technology, in and of itself is not bad. How we choose to use it, is an issue. However we are in the situation we are in, and I don’t see any suggestions for getting out of it that don’t require continued advances in technology.

            If we want a balance with nature (of which we are a very significant part), then we will need technology in order to reduce our dependence on the resources that we currently get from the environment and nature. How else do you propose we go about it, short of killing off a few billion people?

            Wishing and hoping for a balance with nature is a fine goal, but how do you propose we go about establishing it, given our current situation? We can all sit around, love each other and sing Kumbaya, but that’s not going to solve any problems.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Well France is mostly nuclear energy. How wonderful! This is a horrible technology, toxic waste that really has no place to be safely stored, it’s radioactivity is deadly. Think Fukushima! Ya, great choice, no thanks. Solar, wind, tidal, geothermal Etc. are way the better answers.

            Now that said, in the Conscious Choice magazine out of Chicago many years ago ask prominent people both conservative, liberal, spiritual, scientific, there views on nuclear energy.

            The conclusion was, there was no conclusion. Some were for it, some not. Not a ringing endorsement either way.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Solar, wind, and tidal energy, at least, are not reliable until such time as technology has developed batteries that can store this energy until it is needed. Oil, gas, coal and nuclear energy are available 24/7. Suppose we cut off all the nuclear power in France. What happens then? More carbon released into the air as they burn gas, oil or coal. How much more carbon would have been released into the atmosphere if France had built coal plants instead of nuclear plants?
            Would our situation be better? Everything is a trade-off. Just because nuclear energy has some technical challenges – just like all other energy sources, does not make it evil or not useful.

            Taking care of nuclear waste is a technical issue. How many millions of people have been provided with electricity from nuclear power? How many have died because of nuclear power? Sure there have been some problems like 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl, but the technology continues to improve. Fukushima was an extraordinary event, difficult to plan for in a country with little land available for building any kind of energy plants – but the lessons learned are always applied to improved technology. The early automobile contributed to many deaths, and as time went on, technology improved it with seat belts, air bags, stronger bumpers, better design. Should we have stopped the use of automobiles because some people ran into trees and killed themselves?

            Bill Gates had a great idea, that I think China took some interest in. The idea is to dig really deep holes, put nuclear plants at the bottom – run them for a specified period of time, and then cover them up with dirt and build a new one. No muss, no fuss, no radioactivity to worry about (assuming that the location is chosen because it is far from aquifers.

            Hopefully science will figure out fusion or how to extract Hydrogen from water, or come up with some other energy solution that obsoletes what we have now. I the meantime, we have to keep going with what we have, unless you propose to deny millions of people access to electricity.

          • AKA Patrick

            As I said above, All is for USE. Will we use technology for our benefit, or for our demise? Atlantis was one example of our creating our own demise. We are capable of doing better than that. (If we learn from the example). “He who forgets his past is doomed to repeat it.” Nuff said?

          • Patrick Gannon

            You have compelling, objective evidence for Atlantis? Please do share!

            Yes, I agree that it is up to us to decide how to use technology.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Marko,

      Those are some of the fundamental inquiries I hear many people asking, in person and on the internet.

      My view? Having time to spend on the internet, keeping up with both the tweet of the day (or the firing of the day) along with different Spiritual and Mindfulness sites, I would say that the momentum that was taking place in order to reach that critical mass has slowed, mainly for the reasons you cited. People are worried about where their next meal will come from, if their children will go hungry, if they’ll be able to keep the elecricity on. We have so many working poor–two parent families with both parents working while still struggling to make ends meet.

      But, while they are struggling, they are also looking for answers. They want to know why it’s so hard to take care of the necessities. They want to know how we reached this place where our politics (and not just in the U.S.) has lowered itself to name calling and threats. They wonder what it’s all for, so some are turning to Spirituality or Mindfulness for answers. They’re looking for meaning and depth in their lives. Those people may well tip the scales.

      I agree that a major part of the problem today is distraction–not just trying to make ends meet, but also the daily barrage that points out the low bar we’ve reached in how we are treating each other, especially politically, as well as just how many people can’t put their darn phones down or stop watching TV as an escape.

      I believe a grass roots response is our best hope as it seems many of those who are “leaders” (at least politically) seem to have just gone bonkers. (I mean, “The Mooch?” Really?!??) Unfortunately, many of the Spiritual or Mindfulness communities are in competition with each other rather than cooperating with each other. If a way were found to unite these communities, I think a large enough group to have sway would form. How to do that? I’m not sure, but I think the Interfaith committee I served on may serve as an example to start bringing together those communities.

      I still have hope because I know that people are capable of change. I just wonder about how bad the “bottom” will be that people need to hit before they do so.

      Thanks for pointing out where we are, and wondering out loud where we’re going.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Hi Annie, appreciate your input. Here is how I handle things as they now stand. I don’t get involved in the news much. A little sure, but I don’t get caught uP in it much. Though I almost fell of my chair yesterday when NBC with Lester Holt actually gave a positive review segment on Al Gore’s new movie on climate change!

        For politics and such, I’m getting a little more involved in local politics. For my own visualizations & spiritual practice, I visualize that we have a very wise & intelligent, government, politicians, & people. That is, in spite of what current appearances tell us. I use the LOA (Law of Attraction) to pull the energy toward the life I & we truly desire.

        The history & derision and satire of the stupid corrupt politicians is so ingrained and well foundationed in the collective that it’s no wonder we have so much political dysfunction. It’s a self fulfilling prophesy. I work & play to move out of that collective hypnotic illusion.

        For me the most important thing I can do is find my own spiritual inner peace, joy & enlightenment. From that mentality do I live, move, and make my decisions.

        The problems of the world will not go away for now, so don’t get too caught up in them. Yet, we don’t ignore or airbrush over them either. We be & do what we can.

        Being a Master Appreciator, Visualization Imagineer and mastering my own self talk are also part of my current spiritual practice.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Marko,

          I love this: “For me the most important thing I can do is find my own spiritual inner peace, joy & enlightenment. From that mentality do I live, move, and make my decisions.” I just might put it on my nightstand so that it’s the first and last thing I see.

          I’ve also moved towards a more local involvement when it comes to politics, unless there’s something national I feel a need to speak out about–usually about someone being marginalized or something as brazenly outrageous as “The Mooch’s” profane interview. But after I’ve said my piece, I let it go. And I don’t get pulled down to the level I see others going, but comment with respect. If I can’t comment with respect, I don’t comment at all. For me, that’s part of “being the change.”

          I also try to stay community based. We have homeless here that gather just up the street, and they’re grateful for conversation even if I have nothing else to offer. My closest neighbors and I share food and resources, and keep an eye out for each other. Trailer parks have a bad reputation, but here people have been kind and caring.

          I do what I can, when I can, externally. Internally, my “work” is ongoing, always.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Thank you Annie. Blessings & love to you.

            By the way, I ask homeless people 2 questions. Do you want money or food? If they say money I don’t give them any. But if they say food, I give them an $8.00 gift card from McDonald’s.

          • Raphael

            McDonald’s? Do you really want to poison the homeless? (Just kidding…)

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Ha, I know what you mean, but their burgers are not meat but mostly soy.

            As Ben Franklin said aka as Poor Richard: “Hunger never saw bad bread.”

          • Raphael

            True…

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Marko, I’m the same way, most of the time. I’ll buy a meal or a cheap pack of smokes or a bus pass. Sometimes I understand that these people are some of our mentally ill, with no access to health care or medications. These tend to self-medicate with alcohol and street drugs. Those I know personally, I might give a single beer, along with a business card to the local mental health care helping agency.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Marko, if you’re not busy today, Craig Hamilton is having his monthly guided meditation today at 9:00a Pacific/12:00n Eastern. Since we’ve talked before about large groups getting together to meditate, I thought you might want to check it out. I’m sure you can find it if you Google it.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Thanks Annie, I have a few things going on today, let me know how it goes. How long was it?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Marko,

            I ended up missing it because a friend unexpectedly stopped by. If I remember right (I’ve had my focus elsewhere lately), the meditation itself lasts about an hour, then there’s a Q&A after for those unfamiliar with his method. It’s held once a month, on Sundays.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

      • Patrick Gannon

        “They wonder what it’s all for, so some are turning to Spirituality or Mindfulness for answers. They’re looking for meaning and depth in their lives. Those people may well tip the scales.”

        I’m going to agree with Annie here, at least to the extent that I agree some people are turning to spirituality and mindfulness, but for scientific reasons. People like notable atheist, Sam Harris are trying to rehabilitate the word “spirituality” so that it is not associated with woo-woo, but rather refers to specific states of consciousness that are intentionally achievable by using our brains in certain ways.

        It is true that we can rewire our brains, learn to control our thoughts better, achieve states where the “person” fades away and is replaced by states that can lead to insight and new ideas. It’s all becoming very scientific – but that’s because we understand now, that it all stems from the brain. We can see the neuronal patterns change in specific ways in the brain when these and other states are achieved, so we know they come from the brain.

        I don’t think that people practicing these techniques are going to lead to some mass movement of ‘love thy neighbor’ and live like native aboriginals in order to reduce the load on our environment, but these techniques are being used by people at innovative companies such as Google in order to drive new ideas, new technology, new ways of solving society’s problems.

        • AKA Patrick

          EVERYTHING in the Universe is for USE. The use to which a thing is put determines its real value. You can use a hammer to build a house, or to cave someone’s head in in a robbery. Consciousness is the same way. We can use our consciousness for good or ill. It’s OUR choice (our free will, which is a GIVEN from God and supposedly from the nation).

          • Patrick Gannon

            Which god? What compelling, objective evidence do you have for this god?

            Agreed that we can use our consciousness for good or ill, but so what? Almost all neurologists and other scientists in the field, agree that consciousness is something that emerges from the brain. There is no god to give us free will. If we have free will, (unknown at this point), then it probably derives from the variability inherent in quantum field theory.

      • Raphael

        “…many of the Spiritual or Mindfulness communities are in competition with each other rather than cooperating with each other. If a way were found to unite these communities, I think a large enough group to have sway would form. ”

        I agree with you! This competitiveness seems to be part of human nature unfortunately, particularly among men…even Zen schools used to compete in old Japan (how absurd)!

        We need to unite everything under a “life” movement…anyone who is concerned about the preservation of all life…activists, environmentalists, scientists, spiritual groups, Indigenous people, all need to see what they have in common and cooperate and unite to turn the tide.

        Women need to step up to the plate and change the game from the ground up, to reverse this mindless and pointless competitiveness that is defeating even the best of intention, and move the world towards cooperation. Men don’t seem capable of doing this,,,sooner of later testosterone cloud their judgment…unless they are elders, which is why Native Americans were led by wise elders (as well as a women circle in some tribes)-and there is a distinction to be made between an old person and an elder…an elder is someone who has grown in wisdom and sound judgment…an old person is like our current tweeter-in-chief: a wrinkled and gassy selfish and egotistical brat.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          I understand the distinction between elders and the elderly. In the German tradition, there were what were called “wise women” who fit this role. Unfortunately, most were murdered as witches. My Granny was a wise woman. They stood outside the paternalistic politics and made decisions regarding hearth and home. The two systems supported each other, like muscles support the spine. Each benefitted.

          We don’t respect our elders here in the U.S. Instead, we warehouse them, many in conditions we wouldn’t want to live in ourselves. I think it’s part of the disconnect of family and community. We all want our own “space,” so there are fewer multi-generational families, though economics sometimes forces the matter. Maybe that will help us in the end.

          It’s so hard to be a woman who men respect, as I learned in the working world. I can’t even count the number of times I was called a b*tch and told to go back to the kitchen where I “belonged.” We do have some women elders in politics —Elizabeth Warren is one that immediately comes to mind. But I think it needs to be a bottom-up movement rather than a top-down one as those in power at the top are mostly corrupt. Personally, I think we’d have better luck listening to “the crazy old cat lady” in every neighborhood because those I’ve met aren’t crazy at all, but different and wise and loving.

          I’m curious—do you think men (in general) see believing in Spiritual concepts as weaknesses? I’ve often wondered. I understand natives don’t, but it seems in other cultures they do. I’m not talking religion where women are practically non-persons, but the Spiritual and communal ideas of cooperation and sharing. It seems any man who stands for these is cursed as a “socialist.”

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Raphael

            In America there is a lot of ideological propaganda and brain washing…anything that would actually benefit the people (such a free education and free health care) is called “socialism”, while anything that benefits corporations and Wall street is called “capitalism”, even when it includes government subsidies (corporate welfare) sustaining unsustainable industries that would fail in an authentic free market.

            But beyond this, I am not sure what men think in this culture. Do they? Or do they just react according to programming? As John Trudell said, “It’s lonely being a man, the programming runs deep”. We could write a book about it…even male and female infants are not handled the same by parents, according to studies. Male infants are less held, less comforted. This is very important…Males are encouraged and learn to, whether they like it or not, become independent and “strong” early on, while females are allowed to be more dependent and emotional, feeling. Men consequently are programmed to despise what they were taught are weaknesses in themselves and in others…and the extreme of this leads to cruelty and abuse. Indeed the only “manly” feelings some men allow themselves to feel and or express are anger and lust.

            Even among Native people, the worst insult for a man was to be called “an old woman”, meaning the weakest of all creatures, according to such views.

            So yes spirituality could, with some men, being seen as a feminine pursuit, as would art, etc…who knows? That men are made to be so insecure about their masculinity and to constantly prove that they are “real” men, and to fear anything that seemingly threatens that very fragile and completely unreal image is very strange, in my view.

            I don’t think women will ever be liberated until men are as well…some men want to keep women down and “in the kitchen” because they are culturally oppressed as well, made to assume a false identity. This becomes very obvious under oppressive religious patriarchies.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            You bring up many good points, my friend. Unfortunately, I’ll have to return here later to continue the conversation as we just had Tropical Storm and Flood Warnings posted for most of the day. I have a bit of preparing to do, and since a regular thunderstorm often takes down my WiFi, I’ll probaby be offline once it hits. It’s a good thing both Biscuit and I know how to swim!

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Raphael

            I hope you get through it unscathed!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Despite all the warnings, the tropical storm stayed south. We got some rain and a bit of a thunderstorm. No more than flickering lights and my WiFi going down and coming back up a few times. I’ve heard very few tropical storms or hurricanes hit the area I’m in because of Tampa Bay. I don’t know much about meteorology, but since I’ve been here, it’s held true. They always seem to turn one way or another and miss us here.

            I agree wholeheartedly with what you’ve shared. Brainwashing goes on for both men and women (those who resented me enough to try to undermine me at work were women while the men were simply rude and crude). Fathers tell mothers to “stop coddling” young sons, and mothers tell their daughters to not mess up their clothes when playing.

            My mother, thankfully, was an exception after my father left. There were still differences, but not as many. She insisted that all her boys know how to cook, do laundry, grocery shop and at least sew a button on and stitch up a seam. My older sisters were more feminine than I was, at least in part because they were in parochial school much longer. I was a handful, to say the least. A born nonconformist. My mother knew to make matching shorts for all my jumpers or I’d have flashed the neighborhood daily with my rough play and climbing trees and rooftops. Yet I still learned how to darn socks and tat lace and quilt. I took both Home Ec and Shop. Clearly a round peg from the get-go, but I was allowed to be. Encouraged, at times.

            Sometimes I get discouraged at the depth at which cultures assign roles to children rather than allowing them to be the unique individuals we all are. What gives me hope, though, is that anyone is capable of change. We’re actually quite good at it because we do it all the time. The problem is that many do it unconsciously or because they’re forced.

            But we can make a conscious decision to change, as well. Humanity’s at a place where we can choose the direction of our own evolution. That’s exciting, because it means we can choose to evolve into a more spiritually mature species. We can change what we encourage in our children, who then raise their children differently, which changes the culture.

            I don’t see the list of things HEB’s do as judgements about humanity’s failures, but merely point out our immaturity. I see them as something we can aspire to achieve as we mature. It’s a choice, and a chance to not be the cause of our own extinction.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • AKA Patrick

            Glad you didn’t. For too many centuries, the Patriarchy has controlled. We need to get back to a more Matriarchly controlled society. I agree fully with Neale that the problems are not what they seem. They are Spiritually based. We need to re-find ourselves. Notice that most of the wealthiest of the world are male. They seem to have gotten that way by FORCING others to do their will, rather than giving others the opportunity to be themselves. The major most influential nations are patriarchies. BIG mistake!

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Notice that most of the wealthiest of the world are male.”

            That’s no longer true in the US, and globally women’s share of wealth seems to be growing….

            “Women have overtaken men and now control more than half of all U.S. wealth and will likely take an even bigger piece of the pie in coming years, a new study has revealed.” (Business Insider Ryan Gorman Apr. 7, 2015)

            “Women now control $39.6 trillion, or about 30% of the world’s wealth — up from 25% held five years ago, according to research released Tuesday by the Boston Consulting Group.” (Money, Megan Leonhardt
            Jun 07, 2016).

            One article says that female growth in wealth is the result of their own initiative, not because they are inheriting it. So you should be happy with the trend….. However…

            In a nod of agreement with Annie, I think a bottom up approach is best. I favor the idea of micro-loans for women to start small businesses, thus empowering them and giving them enough independence to raise their sons to be decent human beings, which will in turn, change the course of the next generation.

          • AKA Patrick

            So are all the numbers and research you just quoted what’s come out of the primordial ooze you seem to intimate we all came from?

          • Patrick Gannon

            I don’t understand your question. The numbers come from studies. I provided references. You can check them yourself.

            And yes, we did all come from a primordial ooze or something similar – perhaps deep sea hot volcanic vents rich in the materials needed to put the process of life into motion.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “do you think men (in general) see believing in Spiritual concepts as weaknesses? ”

            You have to define what you mean by spiritual. I agree that spirituality exists, even as a scientific concept. A spiritual experience, for example, can be defined as a state of consciousness that is observable and measurable and can be defined as a loss of “self” for a period of time. It can also be defined as an appreciation of the things of this universe. But it can also be defined as belief in things for which there is no compelling, objective evidence, i.e. woo-woo.

            When I was actively dating, I dated gals who listed themselves as “spiritual but not religious.” That tended to mean woo-woo. If this is the definition of spirituality, then I think the numbers speak for themselves, as most reports I’ve read clearly indicate that women purchase more woo-woo New Age products from books to CDs to programs, beads, crystals and so on, than men do.

            If spirituality is defined without the woo, then I think most of the men I know, are every bit as spiritual as women are.

            Do we see believing in woo-woo, as a weakness? I can’t speak for other men, and I don’t like the term “weakness” but if forced to use it, then I will say “yes,” it is a weakness. It’s a failure to exercise critical thinking and to challenge one’s most closely held beliefs honestly and skeptically, and to overcome one’s cognitive bias by seeking out information that contradicts what one believes in order to seek the truth of our natural world. Women have historically been told that they are weaker, so this may be more difficult for them to achieve. I don’t know. That’s why I don’t like the term “weakness.” Our brains operate according to how they have been wired. Is it a weakness, when your brain was wired different from others? I don’t really think so. It’s not a weakness, it’s a condition. Certainly many women have the courage to overcome it, whether we call it a condition or a weakness.

        • Jethro

          Competition is not a bad thing really in some forms. The problem with competition though, is that people these days will do ANYTHING to be the winner, without concern for the outcome. When competition is done properly, the competitors are not afraid to lend each other a hand because winning is not the most important outcome. Today people are trying to reverse this view by giving trophies for simply participating. Simply trying should get an honorable mention. The honor of the winner is only in relation to the strengths of the loser and there cannot be a winner if nobody ever stepped up to possibly lose.
          Bringing together the like minded is part of todays problem. It has happened, of course it’s not the ones “we” agree with. A movement has begun. Those humans with respect for humans and nature are on the rise, acting and speaking out. A “life movement” that’s an attention getting movement! The harshest truth we must face is that many people allowed us to get to where we are with blessings, calling those damaging products good out of ignorance. I think this is why it’s so hard to make a turn around. In fact, we have come to a very tight spot where turning around is impossible, we will need to very carefully back out. The biggest argument I’m hearing beyond those arguments that everything is ok is, which direction do we back out? Not only have we arrived in a space where turning around is impossible, we’re having to back out on a path that has been destroyed.

          Can you imagine this population using wood for heat and cooking? Coal, kerosene, and whale oil are out of the question!! Technology has produced many alternatives but those alternatives are out of reach to most incomes. I really don’t understand why we are not making these things mandatory, even though I know the reason, I still wonder why. That fact that so many are making the change is great though. A family member in California has gone totally solar and that shows it’s becoming more affordable. While slow, the conversion is happening. I’m seeing movements towards local farmers markets and many people producing things at home. That light at the end of the tunnel is not a train but it’s still far away.

      • Jethro

        The bottom has exposed itself in Venezuela currently. Its an example of what has to generally occur before major changes are made.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    Quick thought came to me:
    Get rid of poverty & psychological dysfunction. That would create a lot of relief in the world.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Marko,

      Your suggestion would, indeed, create a great deal of relief for humanity.

      The cause of poverty is, in part, due to the hoarding of money and resources by a few at the expense of the many. As has been suggested throughout CWG, cooperation rather than competition would help solve this problem. Providing everyone with the basics we need to survive–nutritional food, clean water, safe shelter and clothing, to start–would relieve humanity’s anxieties and competition for these things. (And then there’s access to care that supports physical and mental wellbeing, but that’s another, deeper subject.)

      Psychological dysfunction is difficult to relieve as it’s ingrained in our societies. Each of us is raised by dysfunctional human beings as no human is perfect, or unaffected by their own experiences. These imperfections and affects are passed on to our children, often unconsciously. If, however, there were changes made in the educational systems, there could be a way to offset those psychological dysfunctions. The introduction of mindfulness at the earliest of stages, the exploration of the mind having as much emphasis as the exploration of the physical world, the supporting of individuality and each child’s interests, the teaching of both critical thinking and creativity, teaching children how to investigate rather than regurgitate… I believe our educational system is lacking in many areas. It would be easier if these ideas were also promoted in the family, community and society, but we have to start somewhere.

      As for adult psychological dysfunctions, I imagine most would say they have none. Introspection isn’t highly valued in most of our societies. Instead, we are told what we “should” be and do, and there’s a great deal of pressure to conform to that ideal. There is stigma attached if one does not conform. There is also stigma if one admits to having psychological dysfunction and seeks treatment for it. (And then there’s the issue of equality in health care coverage for the psychological and the physical–again, another deep subject on its own.)

      One of my favorite quotes is from Ernest Hemingway: “The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places.” Often those who do psychological healing become stronger through the process. I doubt, though, that our societies would be willing to implement mandatory psychological health treatments (or even education) as we do mandatory physical health treatments, such as vaccinations.

      Just my reflections on your thoughts…

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • AKA Patrick

        God is simple, but subtle. All the intentional distractions of the world are meant to keep us simply living lives of “quiet desperation” so we can’t rediscover the truth of our Real Being and Power (which Is Our Divine Being) If we were to rediscover Ourselves, then the cabal wouldn’t have a chance. Whether it is obvious or not, the future is assured, for Our God Self is Supreme
        .

        • Patrick Gannon

          Assuming this “God Self” exists…. As we all know, there is no compelling, objective evidence for any sort of gods.

          “If we were to rediscover ourselves…” What does that mean? We have evolved from a more animalistic to less animalistic state. Are you suggesting we want to go back and be animals again?

          What cabal?

      • Patrick Gannon

        Regarding poverty – same question I asked Marko. How do you propose to redistribute income? By force?

        Keep in mind that rich people put their money in banks and the banks make loans that let other people start businesses in order to support themselves, and to provide jobs for others. If all this money is given to poor people, who will rapidly burn through it, it’s likely that there may be little left for banks to loan and our economy could grind to a halt. Keep in mind that we get 80 million new people every year, and many of them live in the poorest areas of the world – the ones that are most repressed by religious superstition. Do we take the gold bars out of Ft. Knox and fly over Niger and Somalia dropping gold bars for poor people? No matter what you give them, they will produce enough offspring to eat it all up, and their condition will not be improved until their birth rates come down – and that means dealing with the Church. If you’re not trying to come up with real-life proposals to end poverty, then arent’ you just singing Kumbaya to each other?

        Neither of you has mentioned concrete solutions for dealing with poverty, but the basic tool we have is taxation, and that means electing people who are going to change tax policy. I’m very pessimistic that the Trumpublicans are going to support tax increases for the rich – so I think concrete solutions must start with figuring out how to mobilize the citizenry to change tax policy – or to foment violent revolution, which I assume most of us would prefer to forego.

        I agree with much of what you say about mental issues – and for that, you did offer solutions. I agree that education is key, and that means teaching what we know about neurology and how the brain works. I would note one thing though – teaching critical thinking skills is going to have a negative effect on the continued existence of woo-woo. Those who think critically, are not going to embrace the supernatural, gods, angels, devils, psi, or the existence of “awakened species” or “HEBs.” It’s one reason that religions will fail if they don’t indoctrinate the kids before they are capable of critical thinking. If you wait till they are capable of that, as I did, then your kids look at you like you are from Mars when you start talking about gods, miracles, HEBs,
        imagined “awakened species,” and other random woo-woo. How much mental illness is the product of people believing in imaginary things like this?

        The cures for mental illness will come from science and technology as we come to understand the brain more and more every day. HEBs are not going to eliminate these issues, any more than Kumbaya will.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          You educate people, give them fish to eat, but educate, teach them how to fish. It worked in Bangladesh where poor people even though receiving some handouts, faired much better when they were educated to start their own small business.

          • Patrick Gannon

            It also helped that their birth rates dropped significantly. Who has the responsibility to do this? Is it right for others to barge in and tell them how to educate their people?

            Believe me, I am a huge fan of education to address many of our problems. I’m deeply concerned about the war on science education in US society right now. The scientific method will provide good information about the best techniques to use in teaching as well as what to teach – how to fish, so to speak.

            Everything comes back to science, it seems to me. Neither the Qur’an, the bible nor CwG 1,2,3, or 4 provide us with viable, useful and specific solutions, do they?

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            “Everything comes back to science, it seems to me. Neither the Qur’an, the bible nor CwG 1,2,3, or 4 provide us with viable, useful and specific solutions, do they?”

            Well, apparently not for you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            That’s not an answer. That’s avoiding the question, Marko.

            These books give us ideas for getting along with each other and living moral, productive lives. Some of those ideas are terrible, and some are very useful. But these ideas don’t provide specific suggestions or solutions, that I can think of, to solve overpopulation, poverty, global climate change, depletion of natural resources, existential threats, biological pandemics, nuclear proliferation, or any of the other things that threaten us today. None of the gods give us any real solutions. Jesus couldn’t even be bothered to tell people about germs and basic sanitation, telling his followers it was not necessary to wash their hands before eating. (Mark 7:1-8, 14-15, 21-23). Just for once, I’d like to see a god or one of their prophets or messengers, step up to the plate and provide a specific solution for a specific problem, so that we might have at least some tiny measure of confidence that we’re not committed to someone’s hallucinations.

            What we need are real solutions. You’d think that if there really were gods and if they really spoke to people, that they could offer up some specific solutions once in awhile, just to lend a helping hand, but these gods don’t even know about technology that doesn’t exist yet, never mind proposing new technology to solve real problems. Perhaps the old gods are right, and genocide is the answer. That’s about the best they have to offer, and I don’t see where Neale’s god is offering specific solutions. Why is that? It takes real people to propose solutions, and the longer we sit around waiting for imaginary gods, HEBs or awakened species to save us, the worse our chances.

            Why am I concerned? Because an “awakened species” is educated, and bases its beliefs and actions on things that can be supported with compelling, objective evidence. Neale, it seems to me, is pushing us in the exact opposite direction, given that his god, like those before it, apparently has no real, pertinent, specific solutions to offer. I mean, come on! We had three books from God since the 90’s and according to the complaints voiced here, our national and global situations have not improved during that time period. (Actually, thanks to science, they have). How is the fourth book going to make a difference? Why don’t god’s books make a real difference? If we want to be an awakened species, we need to start looking to what’s real and concrete and specific, compelling and supported with real evidence.

            What might really make a difference to millions of people, would be if Neale would learn a little about neurology and how his brain produced these hallucinations, and would admit it. CwG5: How I Hallucinated God. It will be a best seller!

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Sigh………. First it’s quite inaccurate and very unfair to say I avoid questions. In fact, it’s utter bullsh*t.

            I may avoid some of yours, purposely. Because you and I in the past have gone through a lot of posts with each other, and I don’t see a real reason to continue covering old ground or to have to pick away at your lengthy posts point by point.

            In fact, I don’t read a lot of your posts to others either, though I will occasionally skim over them.

            If you want to see some on the ground solutions, go to cwghelpingoutreachdotcom There, we have helped hundreds & thousands of people with very serious issues, based on CwG principles.

            “Just for once, I’d like to see a god or one of their prophets or
            messengers, step up to the plate and provide a specific solution for a specific problem, so that we might have at least some tiny measure of confidence that we’re not committed to someone’s hallucinations.”

            You may be familiar with the cartoon of a man talking to Jesus on a park bench asking him about why he allows all the pain & suffering in the world and Jesus replies “I was about to ask you the same question.”

            God has given plenty of solutions through and to us, science, religion, psychology, medicine, art, music, poetry, spirituality, CwG and more. The fact that we don’t follow through on many of them is not the fault of deity, but our own fault on what we prioritize.

            In CwG book 4 the HEB’s while they do try to influence us in a positive way, most of the solutions the book says we get come from ourselves as humans. I found this fascinating. In this book much credit is given to humans. In fact, we are awake to many issues and act on that awakening the book says. The problem is, we don’t act on it enough, or fully.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I didn’t say that you avoid questions. I said you avoided that question – and you did.

            OK, so you provided an example of how CwG programs, which were developed by people, not gods, is benefiting some people in need. Is this something specifically spelled out as a solution in one of the CwG books, and is it reasonable to think that it will have a meaningful impact on the lives of 7 billion people?

            Your Jesus story is silly. He’s a HEB, right? A member of an awakened species. An individual with supernatural powers. Why should a mere human be expected to solve problems that Jesus can’t solve? Jesus is supposed to be part of the god who put us here in the first place. Why the heck did he put us here if he didn’t like the way he knew it would turn out? If he’s just going to sit on the bench and offer platitudes, he can take a hike. He’s useless.

            You say that God has given us plenty of solutions through science, religion (that’s a solution???), psychology, medicine, art, etc. but that’s not true. We humans, we mere mortals developed those things. You want to take away credit for what we humans did for ourselves, and like Neale, compare us to some imaginary superhero to whom you want to give our credit. NO! God didn’t give us Jack. We did this – all of it. Good and bad. If you’re going to give God credit for the good things we did, then you have to give him blame for the bad we do. You can’t have it both ways. We’re responsible for all of it, good and bad alike, and it’s time we took some credit for what we’ve accomplished and use that as motivation to carry on.

            I don’t read all your posts either!

        • Spiritual_Annie

          I believe you misunderstood my statement, or misdirected it. I was not specifically addressing the hoarding of money, but of money and resources. Doling out money alone would work just about as well as economic sanctions (meaning it wouldn’t). I suggested providing everyone with basic needs, which I see as a right. I also didn’t suggest we air bomb anyone with gold bars (which Fort Knox has proven to be devoid of, BTW).

          I don’t see taxation as a solution because I don’t see it as an answer to the core problem: we have still not advanced enough spiritually or socially or psychologically enough to develop a culture where cooperation is seen as benefitting us more than competition. Competition, by it’s very nature, means someone loses.

          What I see as a solution is more in the way we think of each other. None of us would idly sit by and watch our children starve to death, but we do nothing when other children are starving to death. We view the world as “us vs. them” and “mine vs. yours.” As I see it, it’s a need for a societal change so that we see ourselves as “all of us” and our resources as “all of ours.” How do we get there? My only answer is to teach it and show it to as many people as possible by being living examples ourselves, by coming together in interconnected groups to support each other, and by promoting it wherever we find ourselves, especially with our children.

          One can’t legislate caring for one’s neighbors. The public culture needs to change. Our interdependence on each other needs to be emphasized. We’ve made movements towards that with things like the Paris Climate Accord. Until Trump pulled us out of it, only two nations had not agreed to it.

          Cooperation. Finding where we have commonalities while still maintaining our uniqueness. Having the word “trade” meaning precisely that—someone has an overabundance of food while another has an overabundance of textiles, so they trade. Not sell, trade. Value for value. No need for money.

          I disagree that critical thinking, when promoted as one aspect of the human mind along with creativity, intuition, and all the other things our minds are capable of, would leave us without Spirituality. The sense of wonder at all the things the mind is capable of itself can be a spiritual experience. Anything can be spiritual, if we choose to see it that way.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “I suggested providing everyone with basic needs, which I see as a right.”

            How? You said doling out money won’t work, and taxation won’t work. You suggested education, which I agree with, of course, but that means accepting that this is a multi-generational enterprise.

            By the way, when did having basic needs provided become a right? Says who? For hundreds of thousand of years, people had a right to die, and that’s about it. As we socialized and came into groups, we added rights – these rights are all man-made. A right is only what someone who stakes out a position and defends it, says it is. We gained rights to representation, to be free from cruel punishment, to have civil rights to an ever greater extent, and now we proclaim that we have a right to health care and basic income. I wonder what our ancestors just a couple centuries ago would have thought of these self-proclaimed “rights!” How is it that we are entitled to these rights now, when we had no such rights such a short time ago in our history? Why are we so entitled to these rights, when our ancestors certainly were not? Neale’s CwG says we have no needs. I guess that’s because we have “rights” not to need things!

            “I also didn’t suggest we air bomb anyone with gold bars.”

            Sigh. I guess I have to add little “sarcasm” notes for those who have difficulty with humor. It was only the other day Raphael was telling me to lighten up. That’s my idea of humor. Sorry if that doesn’t cut it for you!

            “Competition, by its very nature, means someone loses.”

            No, it most certainly does not mean that. It means the exact opposite. As long as you survive, you win. Evolution has a way of making both prey and predator stronger, more agile, smarter, etc. The process of competition improves them both. I used to play a little tennis. It’s always best to play with someone a little better than yourself, if you want to improve. I teach kids karate. Competition makes them better. Competition rocks! Without it, we wouldn’t be here. Even you and I have improved as a result of competition.
            You’re much better about limiting the number of straw man arguments, and I try to take more care not to trip over my words, as I know you’ll rip me a new one if I give you the opportunity. That improves me, and I don’t think either of us would admit that one of us is a winner and the other is the loser!!! Competition is not only good, it’s necessary – it’s mandatory if a species is to evolve. Neale’s #13 above, leads to the death of the species. He’s completely, utterly wrong.

            “No need for money.”

            Geez Annie, how in the world would an economy based on 7 billion people work without a convenient medium of exchange? I’m supposed to have a village in Tanzania who buys one of my VSAT systems ship me a cage full of chickens as payment every month? I don’t think you thought that through before you wrote it.

            “I disagree that critical thinking, when promoted as one aspect of the human mind along with creativity, intuition, and all the other things our minds are capable of, would leave us without Spirituality.”

            Who said it did? I sure didn’t. I suggested that we need to agree on a definition of spirituality, but in no way am I proposing that critical thinking is the enemy of spirituality. I should think people like Carl Sagan made that clear. Spiritual experiences, are things related to our brains – and critical thinking can help us come up with the best ways to leverage this ability for our benefit and well-being.

            Basically, after cutting through the irrelevant stuff, your only solution, one I agree with, is education. (I would not back off tax policy though. I think we can use taxation to do some careful adjustments. The issue is being careful not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs). The problem with education as a solution is that this is not a short term solution. It takes generations. Do we have that kind of time? How do we get this education in place to begin with? Our federal education dept. is currently run by an anti-science fundagelical. Before we can make changes to the education system, we probably have to change the politicians first. How do we do that given that we’re divided along what look to me as pro and anti-science lines, and the anti-science citizens gave us our current administration. They are anti-science because they are uninformed, and that takes education to remedy.

            The woo-meisters like Neale have a problem. If you want people who don’t elect Donald Trumps, then you need people who think critically, and that means you need people who support science, and that, in turn, leads to the downfall of the woo-meisters, because their beliefs are unscientific and unsupported. So woo is in a bit of a jam, which limits what it has to offer beyond platitudes and Kumbaya.

            I’m not beating up on you personally, and some of this is thinking out loud. I sure don’t know the answers to these questions, but neither does Neale’s god. I give you credit for a realistic solution – education. It would be nice if someone could come up with a way to speed up that process.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I never said it isn’t a multi-generational process to get society to move from one of competition to cooperation. Meanwhile, I suggested that we each of us live it, example it, share it and promote it.

            I say that anything that is required to survive physically is a right.

            I’m thinking locally while you’re thinking globally. I believe in co-ops and local businesses. Bartering and trading often occur at the local level.

            We simply disagree about competition.

            “I would note one thing though – teaching critical thinking skills is going to have a negative effect on the continued existence of woo-woo. Those who think critically, are not going to embrace the supernatural, gods, angels, devils, psi, or the existence of ‘awakened species’ or ‘HEBs.'”

            Much of what I consider Spirituality is what you call “the supernatural,” “psi” or “woo-woo.” I disagree that critical thinking, when combined with creativity, imagination, and the arts, would “have a negative effect on the continued existence” of Spirituality.

            I think the movement towards home schooling, especially with the aid of online support, is part of the answer to education. Another could be doing so within the community for those parents who can’t home school their children.

            I don’t think science excludes Spirituality and what you call “woo-woo.” I believe science simply hasn’t found or explained everything yet.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “I never said it isn’t a multi-generational process to get society to move from one of competition to cooperation” I never said you did. That’s what I’m proposing. You aren’t going to change attitudes in a single generation in such an extreme way, through education alone, in my view.

            “I say that anything that is required to survive physically is a right.” Well goodie for you. What gives you the authority to proclaim this as a right? Where does this right come from? Might not everything required to survive physically also be a punishment, if the recipient wishes to die? This means, of course that you would outlaw abortion, right? What about the right to control one’s own body? What happens when rights conflict? The unborn child has a right to anything that is required to survive physically, even up to the death of the mother? What about her right to survive physically? Who is going to enforce these rights? Sorry to disappoint you, but the only rights we have are those that we can stake out, defend and enforce. Otherwise it’s just an empty word.

            Thank you for your clarification on the use of money. A convenient means of exchange is still going to trump most trade deals. Trading is highly inconvenient and inefficient.

            Well, if we disagree about competition, and if you think competition is so bad, why do you compete so adamantly with me? Our little sparring sessions, are clearly a form of competition. And that competition can be very good for both of us. It sharpens our brains. It makes us think outside the box, it makes us exercise greater care in what we say. Competition is essential to the continued evolution of a species. The alternative is giving up, rolling over and dying. Suggesting that competition is bad, is a disastrous idea.

            I understand that you disagree about woo, but then you aren’t up to date on physics and neurology. People who believe in woo will eventually find themselves marginalized. Woo believers have already sided with the anti-science types who elected Trump; so they have no right to complain about him.

            If you disagree that critical thinking doesn’t have a negative effect on woo, that can only be because you are not up to date on the science, or because you deny it. People deny climate change too. They pick and choose what they believe science is right about, based on their personal cognitive biases, without bothering to explain how science can be so right on most subjects, but wrong on the one(s) for which they hold a cognitive bias. Some will sit and scream at the climate change deniers, pointing to the science, but then you point to the science to debunk their belief in woo, and science suddenly knows nothing. This is not critical thinking.

            I share interest in the home-schooling or community schooling idea, but only if tightly regulated. In the bible belt area where I am located, home schooling equates to teaching fundagelicaliism and producing kids who hold great contempt for science. These people want to take us back to the dark ages. They are little different from Muslim kids who learn little besides memorizing the Qur’an.

            “I don’t think science excludes Spirituality and what you call “woo-woo.” I didn’t say science excludes spirituality (does it mean something different when capitalized?), as indicated by my comment about Carl Sagan and my comments about the experiences we can have from enhanced states of consciousness – as produced by our brains. Science definitely excludes woo-woo Spirituality – with or without caps. Of course the scientific process invites anyone to make a hypothesis and test it. After years of this, the results are anything but compelling or objective, while at the same time, the mounting evidence that consciousness emerges from the brain is almost universally accepted by neuroscientists today.

            Your argument is the same as that of the YECs; (young earth creationists). They say science just hasn’t figured out that the world is 6000 years old yet, but week in and week out, we find overwhelming evidence that they are wrong. Nothing discovered ever supports the YEC hypotheses. Similarly the same is now happening for woo-woo. I predict that over time, believers in woo are going to end up being marginalized and will not be included in the discussions by intelligent people, about how to solve our global problems.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I really, honestly found this just today by following a link in an article I was reading in my morning news digest. It’s long, but it’s relevant. The organization is small and they don’t have big name scientists signing up, but it says in its many words so much of what I haven’t had the words for—until now. I’m not “anti-science,” I’m a “post-materialist.”

            This comes from the website for the organization Open Science, laying out their argument against material science exclusively, and how they believe science should move forward:

            1. The modern scientific worldview is predominantly predicated on assumptions that are closely associated with classical physics. Materialism—the idea that matter is the only reality—is one of these assumptions. A related assumption is reductionism, the notion that complex things can be understood by reducing them to the interactions of their parts, or to simpler or more fundamental things such as tiny material particles.

            2. During the 19th century, these assumptions narrowed, turned into dogmas, and coalesced into an ideological belief system that came to be known as “scientific materialism.” This belief system implies that the mind is nothing but the physical activity of the brain, and that our thoughts cannot have any effect upon our brains and bodies, our actions, and the physical world.

            3. The ideology of scientific materialism became dominant in academia during the 20th century. So dominant that a majority of scientists started to believe that it was based on established empirical evidence, and represented the only rational view of the world.

            4. Scientific methods based upon materialistic philosophy have been highly successful in not only increasing our understanding of nature but also in bringing greater control and freedom through advances in technology.

            5. However, the nearly absolute dominance of materialism in the academic world has seriously constricted the sciences and hampered the development of the scientific study of mind and spirituality. Faith in this ideology, as an exclusive explanatory framework for reality, has compelled scientists to neglect the subjective dimension of human experience. This has led to a severely distorted and impoverished understanding of ourselves and our place in nature.

            6. Science is first and foremost a non-dogmatic, open-minded method of acquiring knowledge about nature through the observation, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Its methodology is not synonymous with materialism and should not be committed to any particular beliefs, dogmas, or ideologies.

            7. At the end of the nineteenth century, physicists discovered empirical phenomena that could not be explained by classical physics. This led to the development, during the 1920s and early 1930s, of a revolutionary new branch of physics called quantum mechanics (QM). QM has questioned the material foundations of the world by showing that atoms and subatomic particles are not really solid objects—they do not exist with certainty at definite spatial locations and definite times. Most importantly, QM explicitly introduced the mind into its basic conceptual structure since it was found that particles being observed and the observer—the physicist and the method used for observation—are linked. According to one interpretation of QM, this phenomenon implies that the consciousness of the observer is vital to the existence of the physical events being observed, and that mental events can affect the physical world. The results of recent experiments support this interpretation. These results suggest that the physical world is no longer the primary or sole component of reality, and that it cannot be fully understood without making reference to the mind.

            8. Psychological studies have shown that conscious mental activity can causally influence behavior, and that the explanatory and predictive value of agentic factors (e.g. beliefs, goals, desires and expectations) is very high. Moreover, research in psychoneuroimmunology indicates that our thoughts and emotions can markedly affect the activity of the physiological systems (e.g., immune, endocrine, cardiovascular) connected to the brain. In other respects, neuroimaging studies of emotional self-regulation, psychotherapy, and the placebo effect demonstrate that mental events significantly influence the activity of the brain.

            9. Studies of the so-called “psi phenomena” indicate that we can sometimes receive meaningful information without the use of ordinary senses, and in ways that transcend the habitual space and time constraints. Furthermore, psi research demonstrates that we can mentally influence—at a distance—physical devices and living organisms (including other human beings). Psi research also shows that distant minds may behave in ways that are nonlocally correlated, i.e. the correlations between distant minds are hypothesized to be unmediated (they are not linked to any known energetic signal), unmitigated (they do not degrade with increasing distance), and immediate (they appear to be simultaneous). These events are so common that they cannot be viewed as anomalous nor as exceptions to natural laws, but as indications of the need for a broader explanatory framework that cannot be predicated exclusively on materialism.

            10. Conscious mental activity can be experienced in clinical death during a cardiac arrest (this is what has been called a “near-death experience” [NDE]). Some near-death experiencers (NDErs) have reported veridical out-of-body perceptions (i.e. perceptions that can be proven to coincide with reality) that occurred during cardiac arrest. NDErs also report profound spiritual experiences during NDEs triggered by cardiac arrest. It is noteworthy that the electrical activity of the brain ceases within a few seconds following a cardiac arrest.

            11. Controlled laboratory experiments have documented that skilled research mediums (people who claim that they can communicate with the minds of people who have physically died) can sometimes obtain highly accurate information about deceased individuals. This further supports the conclusion that mind can exist separate from the brain.

            12. Some materialistically inclined scientists and philosophers refuse to acknowledge these phenomena because they are not consistent with their exclusive conception of the world. Rejection of post-materialist investigation of nature or refusal to publish strong science findings supporting a post-materialist framework are antithetical to the true spirit of scientific inquiry, which is that empirical data must always be adequately dealt with. Data which do not fit favored theories and beliefs cannot be dismissed a priori. Such dismissal is the realm of ideology, not science.

            13. It is important to realize that psi phenomena, NDEs in cardiac arrest, and replicable evidence from credible research mediums, appear anomalous only when seen through the lens of materialism.

            14. Moreover, materialist theories fail to elucidate how brain could generate the mind, and they are unable to account for the empirical evidence alluded to in this manifesto. This failure tells us that it is now time to free ourselves from the shackles and blinders of the old materialist ideology, to enlarge our concept of the natural world, and to embrace a post-materialist paradigm.

            15. According to the post-materialist paradigm:

            a) Mind represents an aspect of reality as primordial as the physical world. Mind is fundamental in the universe, i.e. it cannot be derived from matter and reduced to anything more basic.

            b) There is a deep interconnectedness between mind and the physical world.

            c) Mind (will/intention) can influence the state of the physical world, and operate in a nonlocal (or extended) fashion, i.e. it is not confined to specific points in space, such as brains and bodies, nor to specific points in time, such as the present. Since the mind may nonlocally influence the physical world, the intentions, emotions, and desires of an experimenter may not be completely isolated from experimental outcomes, even in controlled and blinded experimental designs.

            d) Minds are apparently unbounded, and may unite in ways suggesting a unitary, One Mind that includes all individual, single minds.

            e) NDEs in cardiac arrest suggest that the brain acts as a transceiver of mental activity, i.e. the mind can work through the brain, but is not produced by it. NDEs occurring in cardiac arrest, coupled with evidence from research mediums, further suggest the survival of consciousness, following bodily death, and the existence of other levels of reality that are non-physical.

            f) Scientists should not be afraid to investigate spirituality and spiritual experiences since they represent a central aspect of human existence.

            16. Post-materialist science does not reject the empirical observations and great value of scientific achievements realized up until now. It seeks to expand the human capacity to better understand the wonders of nature, and in the process rediscover the importance of mind and spirit as being part of the core fabric of the universe. Post-materialism is inclusive of matter, which is seen as a basic constituent of the universe.

            17. The post-materialist paradigm has far-reaching implications. It fundamentally alters the vision we have of ourselves, giving us back our dignity and power, as humans and as scientists. This paradigm fosters positive values such as compassion, respect, and peace. By emphasizing a deep connection between ourselves and nature at large, the post-materialist paradigm also promotes environmental awareness and the preservation of our biosphere. In addition, it is not new, but only forgotten for four hundred years, that a lived transmaterial understanding may be the cornerstone of health and wellness, as it has been held and preserved in ancient mind-body-spirit practices, religious traditions, and contemplative approaches.

            18. The shift from materialist science to post-materialist science may be of vital importance to the evolution of the human civilization. It may be even more pivotal than the transition from geocentrism to heliocentrism.

          • Patrick Gannon

            There is so much wrong with this, that I barely know where to start. What you have here is a bunch of whiners who are upset because they can’t provide compelling, objective evidence for their woo, so it must be the fault of those mean “mainstream” scientists. Boo hoo.

            There are so many key points: One is in #4. It works:

            4. Scientific methods based upon materialistic philosophy have been highly successful in not only increasing our understanding of nature but also in bringing greater control and freedom through advances in technology.”

            The manifesto goes on to whine that their woo has been restricted – and they are right. It’s been restricted by the absence of useful results and the compelling, objective evidence upon which the process of science is based. Had such results been forthcoming, they would not be in this position of whining about their failure to prove their hypotheses. This is sour grapes.

            Number 7 is nonsense. Physicists, almost universally, no longer believe that human consciousness is responsible for collapsing the wave function – the act of measuring, is what does it, and that measurer, i.e. observer, can be, and usually is, completely inanimate. Conscious people do not have to be actually watching or observing for “the measurement” and collapse of the wave function to occur. This is all debunked Deepak Chopra woo.

            If we create the world from our consciousness, how did the universe come into being before there were any conscious beings?

            None of the primary signers of the manifesto is a physicist. Since when are psychologists qualified to comment on quantum field theory? The document is signed by four psychologists, one social anthropologist, one medical doctor, one neuroscientist, and one biologist. Why should we have any confidence in their credibility to draw conclusions about a complex subject in an entirely different field of science than what they are practiced in?

            There is too much to go through and debunk point by point and any evidence provided to refute it will make a believer double-down on their belief. It’s a mental condition suffered by many. For a more detailed critique see: ‘Post-Materialist’ Science? A Smokescreen for Woo,Sadri Hassani, Skeptical Inquirer Volume 39.5, September/October 2015

            Hey these people have every opportunity to prove they are right. All they have to do is bring compelling, objective evidence and submit it for peer review in the appropriate journals and if what they offer has value, the scientific community will be forced to consider it. I used to believe all this too – then I started actually reading about the science. I fought it for a while, like most with confirmation bias, but eventually had to admit that real science kicks woo’s butt up the street and back again. The scientists who developed the core theory, the standard model of science, have a huge, huge, huge advantage over the woo-meisters. They have overwhelming evidence, with countless experiments providing objective evidence.

            I do like the way Skeptical Inquiry puts it: “There are three categories of scientists (MDs included):

            Those who do mainstream science.
            Those mainstreamers who bend the mainstream.

            Those who leave the mainstream and turn into crackpots.
”

            I’ve read the woo stuff, the god stuff, the out of body stuff, the reincarnation stuff, the astral travel stuff, etc. I’ve been fair to both sides. Have you? This is a case of cognitive bias, isn’t it? Easy to believe what you already believe. Much harder and requiring far more courage is to actively seek out information that challenges closely held beliefs. System1 thinkers have trouble with that.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I owe you an apology. I didn’t mean to post this as a reply to our discussion here, but rather as a new comment for everyone’s consideration.

            If it in any way felt like I was targeting you somehow, I am sorry.

            I will leave it in place here so that the conversation doesn’t get all wonky with deleted posts, but will copy the text and post it as a new comment, as I meant to do.

          • Patrick Gannon

            There was every opportunity to discuss all this when “Bruce” was visiting us. He wrote a book that is based on the woo these “scientists” propose. Nobody but me wanted to engage him on his material. If he had been capable of defending or even presenting his material in his own words, we might have had some interesting conversations. Alas, I suspect that he researched a lot of woo, organized it, paraphrased it, put it in a book – but never really understood it well enough to present or defend it, and that’s because it doesn’t make sense, or “mainstream” scientists would have picked it up.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        “…the teaching of both critical thinking and creativity, teaching children how to investigate rather than regurgitate…” Excellent points.

        One of my spiritual mentors a self actualized person has given the same answer to all our problems in the world. “We simply take care of each other.”

        As for dysfunction, I see that being remedied simply by working with counselors, ministers, psychologists, social workers, psychoanalysts etc.
        Cheers!

        • Patrick Gannon

          You left out neurologists. Many psychological issues may be the result of wiring issues in the brain, or other anomalies. We need to continue to improve brain scan technology so we can learn more and more about how the brain works and how it generates (the illusion of?) self-aware consciousness.

          Not sure that those with mental illness would agree that their illness can be “remedied simply” by talking with counselors. Many have been doing that for a very long time, with limited results. We need to learn how the brain works. It’s where our consciousness comes from, so we need to understand it, if we are to address these issues with greater reliability.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Hi Pat, I was making a general statement about counseling. I agree that mental illness can be helped by a combination of drugs, therapies (especially art/music)

            The other side of the coin is that to look at these only as an illness can also limiting. Brilliance and genius can come with mental illness as well. No one size fits all.

            Yet eliminating poverty and dysfunction would go far in working & playing toward the life we all desire.

    • Patrick Gannon

      How do you propose that we go about that? “Get rid of poverty.” How would you go about this? Take over the government and force it on people by authoritarian means? Send the police in to drag rich people out, confiscate their homes and bank accounts and forcibly redistribute their resources to those in need? It didn’t work for the Soviets.

      How are you going to get rid of psychological dysfunction? That has been a subject of intense study, going back further than Freud. If this is going to happen, it will take science, not Kumbaya. You don’t snap your fingers and get rid of poverty or mental illness.

      Where are some concrete solutions? All Neale has to offer is a comparison with alleged superheroes, in which we are to be shamed for failing to live up to their imaginary standards! Can you offer anything more concrete than that?

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        I’m not trying to be mean here Pat, but really,–Lighten uP man, Judas Priest,—
        I simply noted that if we as a society, saw poverty and dysfunction as main problems that, if dealt with as a priority, could go a very long way, as much of our problems (certainly not all) have a lot to do with poverty and dysfunction. How about clean water & toilets as a start?

        There is no one size fits all answer to any of these, & plenty of people have given (and continue) to give great solution possibles (I have a Facebook page just to highlight such things) so solutions are out there it’s a question of marketing, implementation and will.

        For me, I seek inner peace, joy and enlightenment as part of my individual solution for my self & my influence inspired action unto the world.

        All the worry & upset won’t help, but my peace, joy, creativity, openness will put me in a better position to grab on to solutions both grand & small.

        I appreciate your many contributions here Pat, but you might benefit by going to a comedy club or watching a funny movie, or picking uP and old Mad Magazine (which by the way never had advertising) to give your self a laugh.

        • Patrick Gannon

          I’m laughing most of the time I’m writing here. Come on Marko – what’s the sense in saying something we already know, without providing any solutions? We should fly to Mars. We should discover fusion energy. We should end premature births. We should fix the common cold. What good is it to point out what we should do if we don’t have any solutions to offer? At the least, you could have asked if anyone had any solutions for these things, since you didn’t offer any.

          I don’t mean to be mean either, but you started a discussion saying we should get rid of poverty and mental illness. Who in their right mind would disagree with that premise – but what’s the use of it without solutions?

          My response was really intended more as a commentary on Neale’s article because he’s doing exactly the same thing. He’s saying, if we were awake like these imaginary superheroes, we could fix this or that; but like you – he offers no solutions. Why bother? We know what the problems are – now we’re just supposed to feel bad about ourselves because we can’t get rid of them like imaginary awakened beings would do.

          Yes, I laugh. I laugh at the nonsense in this forum all the time!

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Oh I’ve proposed my own & others solutions for years on this blog.
            I do not feel I have to for everything I post.

            But in this case, it’s about what we decide as a collective priority. It might be useful to see if say the world could come up with a top 10 things to fix. Maybe it’s been done. But if so, it certainly hasn’t been agreed on.

          • Raphael

            “Yes, I laugh. I laugh at the nonsense in this forum all the time!”

            Given the amount of nonsense that goes on in all of the world all of the time, you must have burst a gut long ago!…Be careful, anything in excess, even laughter, can be detrimental to your health.

            ne quid nimis.

    • Raphael

      One way to get rid of poverty might be to get rid of wealth! I mean, as long as there is wealth, there will be poverty…just as as long as there is a solid, there will be empty space, or as long as there is an up, there is a down.

      In my view, a spiritual world is not one where everyone becomes rich, but where the accumulation of money becomes unneeded and irrelevant, because all resources are shared, and no one is tossed to the side of the rat race and abandoned, because there is no rat race, no merciless and senseless competition, no more ridiculous pissing contests between individuals and nations.

      I guess I am an idealist…

      • Jethro

        Here, Here!!…. “The accumulation of money becomes unneeded and irrelevant, because all resources are shared.” All humans are important, not one any more, not one any less. All things deserve respect, the grain of sand to the diamond, the weeds to the oak tree, the drop of rain to the ocean, a breath to the atmosphere.

  • Patrick Gannon

    Neale, we have a new participant “Craig” who has responded to some posts here. I have received them in email notifications, but don’t see them displayed here. This is the problem we were having with new people a couple months ago. Does the “moderator” engine have to “learn” who he is, in order to let his posts show up here?

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      I don’t get email notices anymore, is that because I don’t sign out?

      • Patrick Gannon

        I don’t know. Sometimes I get them, sometimes I don’t. That might explain why. I sometimes leave a window open, and perhaps that prevents sending notifications.

        His last post showed up. I think this is the moderator issue we had before – new people have to be reviewed, I’m guessing, for some number of posts before their posts are directly submitted without review.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          For me it’s pretty tiresome when so many posts show up and I have to scroll forever to see if something requires a response, but that’s the way it is. It’s a hassle, but I won’t sweat it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Agreed! This is not the best blog engine in the world.

  • Raphael

    Hmmm…given the fact that there is only a handful of us discussing things here, that we are all mostly repeating ourselves, and that we seem to have developed some interesting communication dynamics, I think it is time we turn it into a sitcom. We have such interesting characters here, and we are all so predictable, it could work.

    • Sam

      Ah, I knew you would say that.

      And, Marko, what do you say? (I have no idea, like… lalalalala)

      But yes, there is nothing new. Everything we talk about on this blog, I found very interesting like 20 years ago. In the deepest sense nothing matter.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        I say there are people reading this that don’t respond and most likely never will. When asked in the past about this from Neale, other people came forward to say they do read but simply don’t respond.

        • Sam

          Sounds right. Which have me thinking of another issue. Do you know, as for being here for a while, a way to subscribe for email updates, not having to do this for every new column? In case I have overlooked such an option somewhere.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            I don’t know & have the same problem. I use to get email updates automatically when someone posted for me, but I don’t anymore. Others here have issues on that too.

    • Jethro

      The one thing I find most interesting here is how different each persons background is. The differences in experiences combined with our views based on the way we we’re raised and how we view the positives and negatives as they are presented. We almost have the crew of star trek lol. Seriously though, if just a hand full of people such as ourselves cannot agree on a few things, and have a conversation without being rude or angry, then how could we expect to ever get the entire world to agree without being rude and angry and ultimately being insulted and going to war over it? While far from complete, we represent the different attitudes we would encounter if the entire world were posting here. That gives me a headache just thinking about it.
      I see this conversation as an exercise in accepting everyone and their views and I started by realizing that each person, is a person, and the views of each person is important. Each persons views represent an attitude towards all of this that I have had at one point or another. Some of those attitudes and views that I have decided did not work for me, or I held onto until I know what to do with it. Some thoughts and ideas I have adopted from this space from the very people who have posted below. The thoughts and ideas of each and every person are based on where they are in life. Age, location, experiences… A person in the desert has very little concern for swamp preservation. Each one of us have concern for the changes that are occurring to our earth because it’s everywhere, we are concerned for the lack of caring being expressed by our fellow human beings, we are disgusted by the selfishness of the power mongers and money hoarders who show no concern for other peoples wellbeing.

      Laughing at us is almost required at times due to the silliness that can arise in a disagreement or when our insanity is sticking out a little further than usual. We keep coming back to this place because we have something to say and we know there is someone here listening to us, agreeing or not. That’s Awesome!!

      • Raphael

        Agreed…I think that if people had deeper conversations (impossible to do on the internet), although they might have some minor disagreements, they would eventually figure out their common humanity and that their needs and aspirations are universal, regardless of race, creed, language, background, etc…

        I had the experience of doing group therapy in LA with the Primal Center for a while…That’s a place where people go deep into their buried feelings…John Lennon did it, as well as quite a few actors (The John Lennon song “mother” was written while he was in this therapy…to give you a feel of what a person goes through during such a process).

        And it was very eye opening (or more exactly heart opening) to hear people from all over the world, from Japan to Germany, England or the US, from all different age groups, men and women, talk about their feelings, feel and express their feelings openly and without shame, and relate in a way that they could never relate if they were talking about their religious or political beliefs, or their ideas!

        When you see a person cry deeply, in agonizing emotional pain, you don’t care about the differences, you relate directly and intimately to their humanity. You might even cry with them, if your heart is open. You would be surprised to realize how similar we all are, even in the inner wounds we carry deep inside, thinking no one else could possibly understand us.

        If we were more honest and open about our feelings, we might understand each other much better (by “we” I mean all of humanity), rather than hiding our true selves behind a barrier of conceptual BS. Ideas are good, but unless they are grounded in deep and real feelings, they are nothing more than expressions of neurosis, of a psychological defense against feeling.

        • Jethro

          A deep conversation is an honest conversation in which we are not concerned with being right or projecting our illusion. You could be right by saying it’s impossible, but I like to think I personally am transparent. Empathy is lost in physical absence in quite an abundance. We can’t hear the sadness or excitement in the sound of a voice, and a persons eyes tell me many things, So I have to agree. You have recently revealed enough about yourself that I know you better and understand your thoughts better as well. When I seen Patricks’ Picture I seen a kind yet stern man, He cares deeply, more than people hear in his posts. I respect him deeply. Your resent description of your past tells a story of your compassion related to mother nature and life itself, I have a new respect for that.
          You would probably be surprised at how I’m not surprised by the likeness of all of humanity. When I was making my move away from alcohol, I went to a lot of AA meetings. 10 to 30 people each meeting. the stories were amazing! Not because of how different they were, but how much alike they were. When I went to college for my associates in substance abuse phycology, it was intense self therapy. The whole point is to know yourself that you may know another and call BS on their illusions (in short). We are all the same, each and every one of us. Only our experiences are different.
          Music, some movies, books, we seek the story of ourselves with happier endings but in reality, we just want to know we are not the only ones. Not being alone is of the utmost importance.
          “If we were more honest and open about our feelings” When we are open, we expose our weakness, our caring side. In truth, it’s our strength. I had a client (fresh out of prison at a halfway house for substance abuse charges) who addressed the group by stating that it was the nature of humans to be evil, or we wouldn’t be evil. I asked him if he wanted to be evil. He thought and said, “no”. I let him know, “That’s because it’s not in your nature.”. To be honest I am paraphrasing as I cannot remember the exact answer, but that’s approximately how the conversation went. The point is, the evil we project is part of an illusion that we create for acceptance in certain situations. It’s a shield, created by the neurosis you’ve mentioned. People create a fantasy self, based on the fantasy selves of others. Humanity would benefit from moving away from these fantasies. We are not as tough as we see ourselves, we don’t suck it up and eat gravel, or however Kirstie puts it. That would be the Australia way, the outback way. Humans are not tough, resilient maybe, but not tough.
          It would do all the world good for the world to speak from a place of tears. Tears that I feel desperate to shed but cannot. My hurt has been so much that I cannot reach that hurt again. I had to leave my daughter behind to heal from the alcohol addiction. when I reunite with her, I will cry again….. Well for a moment I took time to cry for the first time in years. My deepest love belongs to her. My tears are hers. Many inner pain is for her, I will heal when we are together again.
          My current wife lost a child in the 90’s and her pain is her son’s. we work through that too. Much of our world has unsolved moments of pain but it’s almost always love that inspired pain. We have no reason to be so tough and hateful over that. I love so much more through my pain.

          We are all suffering from something, Why don’t we understand that? An even better question is why must we make everyone else pay for it? The release is ours if we choose and when we choose. I know my truth and I hold nobody else responsible. I’m afraid I may have gone way out or off here, or lost touch, but I am in touch with something else right now.

          • Raphael

            “We are all suffering from something.”
            Yes Everybody Hurts (that’s a good song).

            Thank you for your very heartfelt reply Jethro. I particularly relate to your last 3 paragraphs…Regarding your daughter, it sounds very painful, but do not fear such feelings. Deep feelings of pain can completely tear your apart, but really they ultimately build you back from the ground up…into a new you, a real, authentic you. You feel reborn, eventually. But before you get there, you have to, possibly, go down deep, into realms of pain you never thought possible. I have experienced this, and when I thought it was over, there was more, always more pain and hurt, going deeper into a seemingly bottomless pit of pain, at times agonizing, suffocating pain, until one day I got to the actual bottom of it. Then everything changed.

            I understand why people avoid such feelings and healing processes at all cost, because it is akin to walking through fire. Yet there is no other door but going through this inner doorway, and own and understand our inner being entirely.

            It is amazing to see people (in therapy) who are well defended psychologically and seemingly “functioning” very well in their lives, some being quite successful in their careers, start releasing, once triggered, their buried feelings. How much suppressed rage or pain everyone unknowingly carries inside is truly mind blowing. Then we wonder why so many people loose it out there…

            The forgotten secret about feelings, forgotten by adult, not by children, is all feelings without exceptions need to be expressed in order to be released. The other secret is that repressed feelings do not vanish under the floor boards…they fester, accumulate, becomes concentrated and distorted, and usually seep through psychological defenses in the form of symbolic acting out, passive aggressive behaviors, sometimes psychosis, etc…The point is that they never go away. They are like steam in a pressure cooker…they will find a way out.

            The mistake of many spiritual schools of thought, in my view, is to teach that death equates liberation (from whatever negativity or pain weights us down in physical life). This is very inaccurate, as I observed from my own psychic experiences. People who are on the other side have as much of the responsibility to seek healing as they do in physical life, and no God will snap its finger and take it all away for them. That is not the way it works. We have to do the work no matter where we are.

            So I would advise people to do the work now…no matter how difficult and painful, because the more we wait, the more the pain accumulates, the larger the burden, and the more difficult it becomes.

            Once we heal our own pain, we look around and become fully aware of the fact that 99% of the world problems are caused by unhealed emotional and psychological pain. People are not in touch with their own inner reality, and project it on the outside world, and cause others pain in the process.

            And yes love is at the very bottom of all this…love as an unmet need (childhood), love ignored or betrayed, etc…it always all goes back to love.

            It sounds like you are in touch with who you are and with your feelings, and that is a very good thing Jethro.

          • Kristen

            Thats really nice…I just listened to Everybody Hurts, Mad World, then I Stand By You, and Hes Not Heavy Hes My Brother….a full story. I like ‘onion’ sets of songs.
            Ive heard that roller coasters and log flumes, plus other choices where old animal instincts kick in as our brain doesnt know we’re having fun, its just aware we are falling at speed so to scream for help, are an amazing start to healing. Screaming apparently releases something like the cork from a shaken bottle of bubbly. Some therapists encourage it over and over again, introducing memories or thoughts at that screaming moment to trigger the release.
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Great songs…

            Ha! You are thinking “Primal Scream therapy”, right? No, that’s not what I did…there was never any screaming involved, from anyone, except when people got their bills :)

            The book The Primal Scream was written by the same person, Arthur Janov, who started he Primal Institute (his wife, divorced, stated the Primal Center, roughly the same approach…I went to both), but the title of the book was very unfortunate…because it gave people the wrong impression and gave the psychiatric establishment an excuse to call him a quack.

            No, no screaming whatsoever…just deep feelings. Sure, occasionally someone would start by expressing some anger or rage, but it eventually morphed into pain (pain is always the source of anger or rage, it’s just below, more hidden).

            Memories were not forced, everything was done very gently and progressively. To force things is to eventually cause catharsis (which is not true healing, just a release of pent up energy) or shut down (when too much comes up too fast).

            Here is an interesting book: Prisoner of Pain. To read while drinking tea and eating crumpets on a lovely summer afternoon on the veranda, watching the sheep walk by (do you even have sheep in suburbia?)

          • Kristen

            Yip, thats it. I just recalled reading about it, but second hand info.

            I can watch the cats walk by…close enough. Trees are big enough to block out neighbours both sides, I can pretend they arent 4 metres away on one side, and 10 on the other! My upstairs deck is like being in a treehouse, thank goodness! My sanity in the burbs. But 4 beaches are only 10 mins away, plan B! Ill put it on tbe reading list, but I cant read lots of books as I read in pictures, see everything as a movie in my head, so cant read about suffering, or Im there in the room witnessing it, feeling the emotions of the victim.

            People who can move on astound me, I couldnt. Im a shut down person by nature.
            In that aspect Im torn on the principle of bringing up suppressed memories in any form, I think it is best for many to be able to step out of it, just know it happened like a vague witness and try other methods to heal. I dont know, everyone is different.
            Of course all anger or rage is pain based, generally with the ‘its not fair’ core, before they can go deeper. Suppressed anger is dangerous, more so than suppressed pain.

            In my personal view, music therapy is the best, if people really listen and block everything out, theres majic in music. They should be able to ‘feel’ the songs they need to listen to, including the lyrics. Pink Floyd are huge with therapy songs, if people can tune in completely. Especially Wish You Were Here. Beautiful lyrics. I think when people can truly understand the song, feel it and relate to it, much can be analysed when they present their song choices to the therapist. Its one of our Kabbalah tests. Either a conscious or subconscious memory, desire or goal. So many relate to the play list I wrote above, I worked it out for someone taking a group therapy course. She sadly finds that so many, especially men, really NEED someone to be the singer in those songs for them, a brother! The song Wish You Were Here brings out odd emotions in people, in the role they would choose. Lots choose to be the singer but astounding numbers want it sung to them, for someone to truly miss and want them there, so much so that they would be prepared to sing a song about it.
            The song Thunder is becoming popular in therapy as well, about jealousy and so much more. Surprising me is people drawn to music the same beat as their pulse, generally 90s music, when pushed. The people still feeling tne rhythm of life.
            Anyway, must work, bill monsters are sitting on my desk!
            Xx

          • Sam

            Quite depressing when even death isn’t rest in peace anymore. Happily, it ain’t so.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            “Deep feelings of pain can completely tear your apart, but really they ultimately build you back from the ground up…into a new you, a real, authentic you. You feel reborn, eventually. But before you get there, you have to, possibly, go down deep, into realms of pain you never thought possible. I have experienced this, and when I thought it was over, there was more, always more pain and hurt, going deeper into a seemingly bottomless pit of pain, at times agonizing, suffocating pain, until one day I got to the actual bottom of it. Then everything changed.”

            Beautifully put, my friend. It’s because I at first had to suppress my pain for my own safety and then became afraid of its depth that it took two years of intensive therapy for me to peel all the way to the core and reach the pit of my pain. At first, I believed it was because my father abused me and my mother didn’t rescue me. But what lay at the center, waiting for me to recognize it, was that my father didn’t love me at all, and my mother was so preoccupied with her own survival that she couldn’t express her love for me. I have found that most people I’ve been in therapy with hit the same kind of bottom—feeling a lack of being loved as and for who they are.

            I like what Neale says about emotions—that they are energy in motion. It’s why suppressing them is so dangerous. The motions don’t stop no matter how small a box we put them in on a back shelf of our minds. The more tightly packed, the more frenetic the motions become, some seeping out as many different kinds of anger and defensiveness.

            The world does indeed look different from the other side of understanding and expressing our deepest wounds. I can’t close my heart to the suffering of others, and yet I hold hope for all because I’ve learned the difference between suffering and pain. Suffering is optional. A child that is starving isn’t suffering, but is in pain. Suffering is created by our thoughts about things. Pain is not.

            Thank you, my friend, for being so authentic.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Raphael

            “..most people I’ve been in therapy with hit the same kind of bottom—feeling a lack of being loved as and for who they are.”
            Very true. This is always the bottom line…then we also understand how our parents were suffering themselves.

            I personally think everyone needs therapy, because extremely rare are the parents who are actually able to love and attend to the real needs of their children, without distorting these needs, due to our insane contemporary lifestyles and too much pressure placed on families.

            The perception about therapy is different depending on where you live…in Southern California, it is seen as being part of personal growth. In some other places in America, people believe you have to be really messed up to want to see a therapist. Either way, it doesn’t matter, in my view it is a great opportunity to expend our self-knowledge and insights, understanding and ability to have empathy and compassion. It is basically about opening our hearts and seeing what’s hidden deep inside…

            Yes, pain and suffering are very different. I see suffering as originating from unreleased, suppressed pain. Suppressed pain does create unreal thoughts, such as projections.

            I thought it would help us all to be a little more authentic here, rather than just being “talking heads”. Spiritually is also about being real, about being true, about simply being, not about appearing to be this or that (the origin of the word persona -as in “personality-means a mask worn by an actor).

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Growing up in a German, stoic family, the idea of admitting one needs help is perceived as a weakness, and in a dysfunctional family, weaknesses are dangerous to admit to as they can be weaponized (who recently said that?) against us. Raised Roman Catholic and having my father distort parts of the bible and religion as central to his brainwashing of me, he convinced me I was deserving of all he did to me and switched the responsibility for his actions from him to me. Even though I felt both damned and responsible, there was a part of me that instinctually knew it was all lies and that the abuse was unearned. It was the whisper of that still, small voice.

            But, I digress…

            Can you imagine the number of very thick walls all that put up between me and my getting the therapy I needed? I was in my early 30’s when I started my real work. Mostly, I went into therapy because I’d been reading up on codependency and recognized parts of myself as precisely that, not to deal with my childhood issues. I can laugh at that now. I knew I had childhood issues, but I thought that they were unrelated.

            The other part of my going into therapy was to grieve the loss of having any relationship with my boys. That was raw pain that I needed help getting through. I had no legal relationship to them, and their abusive father wouldn’t let me see them without him being there—just the thought of being within sight of him was too much. And I thought that was also unrelated to my childhood issues.

            Layers upon layers until we get to our root wound, which when healed with unconditional love leads us to live with our hearts open, including to the pain of those who are suffering. But it can also lead to radical changes in how one defines self, what we see as our place in creation, and incredible Spiritual wisdom. Gifts, if we allow them to be. And part of our evolution, as well, if we choose it.

          • Raphael

            I am glad you were able to gain all these insights! It takes work…but therapy is a very spiritual process, as it indeed heals and opens your heart to love.

          • Kristen

            Hi again,
            See… exactly what I mean about dads, sometimes people focus so much on mom relationships, and so many dads are absent in many different forms, that we as society have completely dismissed the dad importance.
            dads now are so much more open and better, fingers crossed for the next generation.
            xx

          • Raphael

            I agree completely Annie…

            “But what lay at the center, waiting for me to recognize it, was that my father didn’t love me at all”…I am sorry that you had to experience this in your life…hitting that center (of pain) is devastating but it frees us from all forms of struggles to attempt to “deserve” love, a love that wasn’t there and will never be. It shatters all false hopes and makes us real…once real, we can move on and live as authentic human beings.

          • Jethro

            I was reading the conversation above and remembering “the sitcom” Kirstie mentioned. It was entertaining. Classic paranoia was the running theme, and running at it’s best. A typical human response to the unknown, mixed with a little fear/anger, and an inability to prove one thing or another. I don’t believe anyone could have said anything comforting at the time. Reminded me of “Lord of the flies”. Great book!
            Everybody Hurts, that “is” a good song. It’s a statement that is ignored because people believe they are hurting worse than anyone else could. A constant need to one up each other, trying to or not, as most people have been raised to use that to get attention as children. Just add it to the empathy robbing competition we see in our adults today.
            I wish I could honestly say I was entirely in touch with my feelings, but really, it’s a never-ending practice of allowing my emotions, knowing I have more than happy, sad, and angry, then only expecting to be happy all the time, and if not, something is wrong. When we know ourselves well enough, we maintain a seemingly psychic connection to everyone around us, which is empathy at its highest strength. When we can quit seeing ourselves as weak, flawed, and worse off, we will quit seeing others as weak, flawed, and needy. When we are willing to heal our own emotional wounds, and see it for what is, a normal human experience, we stay ready to help someone else do so. We don’t wait until there is a suicide attempt to decide someone is troubled, or wait until someone commits murder to realize someone needed help. We don’t require people to not express emotional pain because their pain might make us feel something. How many times has the news interviewed someone close to a killer that said, “but, he seemed so happy!!”. When we allow ourselves and others to express all emotions, we become connected again and that connection will be required for the world to heal.
            “The mistake of many spiritual schools of thought, in my view, is to teach that death equates liberation” Any teaching that death will make anything better is foolish. We have many people living in preparation for not living! If the afterlife is as wonderful as is stated, there is no need to prepare for it. If we desire the afterlife more than the life we have here and now, we need to… Hmmm…what do we need to do? The only blanket statement here is live! Be alive! The only reason I can’t give a different answer is that there are so, so many ways to do that and it depends on the individual. A belief in the afterlife can be comforting, and it was meant to be. The problem is, so many people feel they are failing in life and screwing up their afterlife in doing so. The religion I was born into states we were born sinners, we are humans who make mistakes and we will make mistakes. When we do, we need to find forgiveness… or we go to hell. No. We need to make peace with ourselves so that we don’t live in guilt. “Live” in guilt. The same book says when we die we will enter heaven and be healed. We will feel no sorrow or pain. That states that life can be filled with pain and sorrow, and it can, it is, but it doesn’t have to be experienced all the time. Life can, and should be also, filled with joy and happiness… and every other emotion. So yes, do the work now, live!
            Every human needs another human, from birth to death and everywhere in between. Love’em all now, sort it out later.
            For those who are reading this and thinking love is an unnecessary mush, love can be the act of not throwing your gum wrapper on the ground.

            I have been writing this here and there the past couple days, time to send ready or not. The conversation is passing me up.

            Thank you Raphael

          • Kristen

            Hey, re Christian teachings. I have no idea where they get their information from, certainly not scripture. The hell in scripture used symbolism, look up fire, sulphur, lake etc in a dream book, its all merely a mental state AND done on Earth in the end, when the ‘dead’, reincarnates souls, are on Earth. Just as some end up in a Heaven state of mind. All the Heaven and wall gems are human traits, in a dream book again.
            The hell states in their worst form are rock bottom, so people can change and crawl back up to become new and improved ‘humans’.
            Take care,
            K
            xx

          • Jethro

            I honestly believe the bible to be one of the most misunderstood books on earth and that’s only because it’s the one forced on me. I don’t know about the contents of the other ones. My first clue was as a child when they told me about a god that wasn’t as forgiving or compassionate as I was. the second was all of the metaphors, the third, few things make sense to real world knowledge like having to stop construction of a building for fear they will reach heaven, which makes no sense at all. Something has been misunderstood! I agree with you, it’s a story for life, not one that makes death better.

          • Kristen

            Hi. Agree, its completely misunderstood OR probably more thats it taught how individuals choose to teach it.
            re the Tower Of Babel…Heaven refers to a state of mind, close to beauty and perfection, with bliss etc. In those days, based on scripture, people were generally ‘not nice’ people, not entitled to a great life that God and the Heavens would bestow on them. Yshua taught the wealthy couldnt have a Heaven state, it was reserved for children and the righteous, so I guess that was the rule then. Skyscrapers, made through intelligent teamwork, I guess like apartment blocks would allow people to live lives free from weeding gardens, growing food and outdoor chores, therefore a breach of the Eden curses AND it would mean those who could afford to ‘live the high life’ would then indirectly put others into slavery growing food etc for them. Word would spread quickly, farmers would somehow be forced into slavery or the wealthy in their ivory towers, would become the rulers as people would ‘look up to them’, rather than those God chose, and later the priests.
            So by my interpretation, different languages were introduced, to prevent globalisation, and everything we are seeing right now! Look at the price of a New York apartment, and who can afford then versus a farmer a few hours away, that those in the apartments control and bestow on him a need to work hard for his $$$. If if wasnt done, none of us would have been born, technology and construction would be where it is now, but thousands of years ago, Earth probably wouldnt exist at all, who knows.
            The Bible Codes state a language gene in man would be activated at some point, back in Genesis, stating its the God Gene, so I guess they wanted to wait until people were ‘nicer’ and creative, represented by becoming right handed, before globalisation was allowed. Communication is a hinderance to the world in that context, many would realise how different lives would be if we only traded within our own countries or with a neighbour country speaking the same language.
            I assume the language gene was activated in England, with the english language becoming a common language, based on many other languages, since the Bible Codes state its the Peninsula of Lison, and tongue of the sea (using a real place to hide the true information still) which translates when you decode it, thats its speaking using the tips of out tongues….English!
            Then Gods prophecised Empire was built, the Commonwealth! Look at how the introduction of one language for many, that most of the world now speaks or tries to, has changed the world…for the worst! The old word for Jerusalem is Ariel…the story of the little mermaid, half God, half human….the state we need to be before we are ‘permitted’ to have those elusive great Heaven lives…as in Revelation, where God provides Heaven lives called a new Jerusalem, spending thousands of years ‘with’ humans trying to get them nice and loving, to embrace joy there.
            Its an entitlement, not a right, although the wealthy are able to create that life for themselves because of technology, construction and language communication….its something God and those above provide, not something the wealthy should help themselves to.
            Just a simplified version of my studies on Babel anyway. Its a story that uses many sayings and metaphors!
            Take care and sorry about typos, tablet is out of charge, and about to die…plus NEED COFFEE!!!
            xx

          • Jethro

            Hi Kirsty, Thank you for spending the time to explain that. I made my coffee before setting down! I think I made it through the typos. The ability to read has only become common in the last 100 years and I believe comprehension of what’s being read is still being worked on, too many definitions, lots of failure. I also believe that it was people who could hardly read who decided what the Bible was saying once the Bible was available to the masses. The original ideals were lost or distorted.
            What I’m getting, in short, is no person should rise above the common being and your defining the tower as more of an early apartment building. Heaven is defined as a lifestyle or state of mind, rather than a place. Your explanation certainly makes more sense.
            When you get a moment, could you offer more explanation on heaven lives, and how God is spending years with humans. “God provides Heaven lives called a new Jerusalem, spending thousands of years ‘with’ humans trying to get them nice and loving, to embrace joy there.”
            The creation of different languages. I can’t believe that all happened in one place in a short amount of time. There must be more to the story.
            Wish I had more time but gotta busy day. We work while you sleep and vice versa. Thanks again! Take care.

          • Kristen

            Hi ya,
            Sure. Im at work now, and need two books I dont have here, one an antique bible dictionary from the 1880s that defines every word done when scripture was translated properly to English…I need to check the word Babel…its one similar to Sodom, that sodomy is based from referring to vile place!
            Yip re language, most of scripture was verbal stories, storytellers adding their own take on it all, as Christians still do. Boy, imagine how different the world would be if they didnt put in douchebag Pauls letters…no Catholicism as theyd have no sexist douchebag to latch on to!
            Definately a lot more to the language story, obviously there were different races all over Earth, I think God was just wanting to hide it from people to keep those He was working with close together in the Middle East then, keeping them flat earthers as long as possible while trying to teach them morals and principles as a group, then allowing them to travel later, and spread those laws, morals and principles much later. Scripture defines this in God telling people their offspring would be plenty and spread all over the Earth…He’s a prophet remember, The Prophet of prophets so perhaps worked backwards just as we do with science…see the end result, then work through the why and how, making it happen. Just my opinion, it just seems logical and easier than working forwards from scratch!
            Talk later,
            K

          • Jethro

            I’m in no hurry and thank you for taking the time to do so. I enjoy your perspective and knowledge on the subject… when I understand it. Still enjoy it either way.

          • Kristen

            Grrrrrr, now I cant even find the conversation, boy I sure am being ‘blocked’. My laptop wouldnt let me even type replies last night, its new and should be fine? Nothing would show in the reply box at all, so gave up Whats going on? I forgot to say Babel means the gates to God, I knew it was a huge word but had forgotten why. ‘Babe’ refers to male/female relationships, a relaxed term of endearment.
            Talk later, cupcakes to ice!
            Xx

          • Jethro

            Sounds like you were not meant to answer. Quit trying. It’s ok. Lol. I won’t die without an answer. Some things are supposed to be the way are.

          • Craig

            Kirsten there is a free download on a 790 page document of the same era on hermeneutics of the bible that may help. Then bluebible has a app you can download that provides you with a reference to the stone concordance that is used by a lot of researchers…

          • Kristen

            Xx
            Hey, I agree with Raphael below.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Jethro,

            It’s difficult for some to cry. One of my brothers hit a crisis and breakdown, landing him in a psych ward. I flew back from CA when I heard. When I showed up at the hospital unexpectedly, he was shocked. He asked why I had come back home for a visit, and I told him I’d heard that someone I loved deeply was struggling. Then I made him lay down and lay behind him with my arms wrapped around him. Even then he couldn’t cry, though I felt him shuddering. When I whispered in his ear to just let it go, he finally did. It was like a dam broke, and I had to wave off his psych tech who was checking on the noise so he wouldn’t stop until he was done. We lay there with his crying for over an hour, until he was spent and slept. After, he was finally able to verbalize his pain.

            When Christie, the best friend I’ve ever had, passed last year, I was crying already when I called 9-1-1, and all through the interrogation by the Sheriffs. I didn’t stop much at all that day, or the next—until I had to deal with her family. A little later, I wondered why I was no longer sobbing about someone I loved heart and Soul, and why I was still functioning. I thought maybe I was in shock. But since I had already cried deeply, I found I was in pain, but not suffering. Missing the heck out of her, but not suffering.

            If I were there with you physically, my friend, I would do the same for you as I did for my brother.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Raphael

            Wow you did really great with your brother!

            It is truly revealing of how much ALL of our society and culture are messed up, when psychiatrists do not seem to understand what is needed for a person to get well-not a psych ward, not medications, but human empathy and compassion…love, patience, feeling, and the safe release of pain.

            Neurosis (the suppression of feelings) is truly widespread, even among mainstream mental health professionals, who are not at all in touch with human needs.

          • Jethro

            The most powerful of human expressions is touch. That touch of caring and love without sexual need. We have these days decided we don’t like being touched. in turn, touching and physically feeling someone else is one of the most powerful feelings there is. Thank you for expressing your desire to hold me in that manner. It means a lot and says a lot about your caring nature. I purposely hold my pain for my daughter. I refuse to let it go until we are reunited, I feel I must. Maybe it’s out of my control. Balance is a very important thing and I will never feel balance until I am my daughters daddy again. an update to the story, I received an address from a lawyer to my daughters location. Now, I just need the balls to go face everyone. It’s coming soon!!

            You are so very sweet Annie and full of so much love, I thank you so much for wanting to bring me comfort.

            Love and Blessings Always and as usual to you!

          • Kristen

            Hi Roy,
            Find those balls deep within, theyre there. The entire time you’re there block everyone and everything else out for now, just focus on the one most important thing, your relationship with your daughter.
            Fathers and daughters have such a special bond, one near impossible to break, and when it is broken….well you know the story! And the numbers of screwed up females due to lacking that bond. I personally think the relationships between dads and daughters, plus girls and their grandmothers are the most important. Although I dont see either much, that bond is always there, and no matter what life fires at me, one of my utmost thoughts would always be to never damage those relationships, anyone else can come and go. I dont know your daughters age, but I think the most special moments in life are those rare ones when a father is so proud of his daughter, and thinks she is beautiful, on the inside, outside or both. Like seeing her ready for a prom, her wedding day, going out on a dad daughter date….I would always want my dad to proudly introduce me to people, like ownership, he made me, no one likes to make anything they arent happy with. I could never allow an addiction, get obese or be self destructive, because of dad….all dads, they need those moments and daughters need to understand the power of dads (be it step dads, granddads, much older brothers as well).
            Dont miss out on anymore moments, girls will forgive their dad for almost anything, even if it takes a while, all they need to know is that dad loves them, and the world will be ok!
            Let her know, and show her.
            We’re all here for you, picture us all standing behind you, a show of support. Raphael as a brother, Annie holding your hand with gentle words, and me taking your keys so you can’t escape, firmly saying “no Roy, you CAN do this, its too important to hide from, the most important relationship in your life needs fixing, you’ve got this, and we’ve got your back”.
            Take care,
            Xx

            Seperate topic re hugging etc…completely agree. Ive had my shop for 15 years, with many really old customers as well. The number of times Ive asked them how they are, and the truth comes out is nuts. One hug, and gentle words, and the dams come flooding open. One customer has MS with a mentally ill husband and will pop in sometimes just to let it rip and have a cry, or theyll tell me someone else has died, one told me her 40th anniversary was coming up and her brat kids are too selfish to remember. I wrote in the diary and called her that afternoon and she cried on the phone, shocked someone had remembered, her husband had even forgotten. Just last week as I carried an old ladys goods out to her car, I gave her a hug out of habit, just cos she was old I guess, and she almost flinched…thats sad. We’d been talking about her husbands severe dementia for a good half hour, before she headed home to make him an 80th birthday cake, that he wouldnt even notice.
            With old people you know they will have some problem or trauma, so they are open, but the world sort of forgets many people need that too, we just assume everyone has somebody.
            The crazy thing is that all people do…they just havnt opened up to them so that person, who may be the lady in the cake shop, may be the plumber, may be a customer behind them, or a person at the bus stop just doesnt know…thats whats so sad. Conversation is the key, people talking to people, and listening, so we know who needs help, a kind word, counselling or a hug.
            Xx

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Kirsten,

            For someone who likes a good sitcom and off-topic meanderings, you sure are awesome sometimes.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Kristen

            Just human!
            Straight back at you!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I knew you were human!

          • Kristen

            Just scrape in!
            Stop the nice, ok. You’re getting me worried that you’re some random ghost, not the ghost of Mewabe!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Have a NIIIICE day.
            (That was a random thought).

          • Kristen

            And my dear friend, you have a niiiiice day too.
            May your days be filled with joy and peace, and may all your hopes and dreams come true.
            May the gentle flapping of peace doves embrace you with loving protection, as they guide you through lifes wonders!
            May each of lifes wonders present themselves to you in abundance, as bountiful as gentle grains of sand.
            May each grain of sand in your life shine and glisten in the warming sun, each waiting to be lifted to the sky in a gentle breeze.
            May each gentle breeze quietly whisper in your ear, the sweet nothings of nature as you be still and just feel.
            May the stillness of life fill your heart, as you lay on a warm beach, watching grains of sand gently being carried, knowing each grain is but one soul, one heart, one love, one dream, each eventually carried to the Heavens in the white wing of a dove, where it will shine, for the righteous will shine like stars.
            Just a random thought.
            Lots of love,
            K
            xx

            Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah….you wanted nice…would you like a cracker with that cheese?
            Let me know if the doves poop on your head!
            Its Sunday, church is over! Nice is over!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I regurgitated my dinner…I can’t handle “Hallmark moments”, please please please no more nice…I am throwing the towel, it’s a knock out, you win!

          • Kristen

            Hahahahaha.
            Im puking as well!
            Perhaps Patrick may like some poetry woo! He likes woo.
            Im sure someone somewhere may like it, heck, people get paid to write that crock! And suckers buy It!
            I think Ill be nice forever now! Readers really wont understand this at all, nor the ‘no nice’ rule, perhaps we’ll get a diagnosis is machosadism or whatever it is, or that I have multiple personality disorder.
            Get the puke bowl ready! Its a sit com remember. Even Markos playing, and he didnt like the last sitcom, but he turned up playing pinball at a bar this time. Cool. Youre the therapist brother in this episode.
            Have a lovely week my friend.
            Xx

          • Raphael

            May all the blessings of the universe be bestowed upon thee…(am I going too far? I am new at this, I need to learn to toe the line).

            Alright group hug everyone!

          • Kristen

            Blessings appreciated, thank you!
            Hey with the combination of nice, woo and new agey stuff there is no such limit on going too far!!!
            Um, about that group hug….someone has B.O! And its not me!
            Perhaps start with just a toenail..clip it and see how far it can fly. Then make up beautiful poetry about a flying toenail clipping. See…no such thing as too far.
            Blessings and group hug straight back at you, minus the B.O. And dont squash me, Im only little, far too many males in here, Annie and I might break.
            Bedtime here, you enjoy your day! Oops, I mean may the wings of a thousand butterflies sprinkle their fairydust over you with love today.
            Haha
            xx

          • Raphael

            The mystery of flying toenails…that vanish into thin air, proving the multi-dimensional nature of the universe.

            Okay we won’t do group hugs…we will all (all of us here, including Neale, whether he wants to or not) hold hands and dance in a circle under the full moon, chanting om mani padme hum. No squashing or stepping on feet, and everyone takes a shower first.

            Love and Light ha ha ha…
            Does this qualify as harassment yet?

            On another note, are you digging a bomb shelter considering Trump and Kim Jong-un’s latest pissing context? When will little boys grow up?

          • Kristen

            Well my house isnt multi dimensional dammit, why do boys clip toenails inside and leave them where they land? They could at least put them down the sides of couches with everything else that we own!

            Lets just do the hokey tokey, much easier to remember and with a PC body distance!. Is that a metre? Shower first, great idea, Ill bring the hose! I bet someone will have ocd and bring out the hand sanitiser! Who?

            Harassment, nope, not yet, I think thats just an American term…but Love and Light could get you in trouble, thats someone elses sign off, Patrick likes other quotes clearly defined. Who signs off with that? Cant remember.

            I dont need a bomb shelter, remember NZ is nuclear free, Im sure Trump and Jong-un will know to keep nuclear germs away. But if you need a room I have a couple spare, or to be more natural, the old smokehouse has good wildlife that will survive anything…roaches and spiders. We dont even have basements here, and 10cm of soil if that, then solid clay, a spade would break before I got a metre down, or I would. Whats your plan? Youll be fine anyway, you’re just a ghost, not even a real person!

            Fairydust and elf poop raindrops,
            Xx

          • Sam

            Someone got a big paycheck, alright :)

          • Kristen

            Hahaha. He knows not to play nicely! And wanted a sit com.
            You can have the luuuuuurvly poem about woo, just a kind donation.
            Its like a viral chain letter, pass it or your own, on to people and theyll start puking and fall ill! Who needs nuclear weapons when human imaginations are capable of so much more to strike terror and create illness!
            Xx

          • Sam

            “Who needs nuclear weapons when human imaginations are capable of so much more to strike terror and create illness!”

            Good one :)

          • Kristen

            Oops…just remembered Neales wife is a poet.
            Gulp!

          • Sam

            I’m not surprised me saying “Good one” made you think of Neale’s wife :)

          • Kristen

            Seriously where did that thought come from? Curious about something, someone I know writes like that. It was wierd.

          • Raphael

            It was very spontaneous…probably picking up something psychically ha ha…

          • Kristen

            Hey Annie, something completely irrelevant, just for a change! I just had an American customer in. She said Americans still use cheques/checks as a form of payment? And some people still get paid by cheque? Was she joking?
            Thanks,
            xx

          • Raphael

            Nope…I get paid by checks…It’s a new thing here, before I was paid in clam shells, wild horses and beaver pelts.

          • Kristen

            Haha funny guy…not. Surely you got paid in scalps.
            Thats so funny about checks, which we spell cheques. A check is a square pattern in the real world!
            Only some businesses, clubs etc here would use a cheque book, no shops or businesses would accept them although you can get them for personal use, to post bills. Why do they pay you in cheques when they can just transfrr the money to your bank account?
            We’re almost completely electronic, all our shop transactions and bills etc, and bills are received electronically as well unless you ask for paper ones including utility bills. Shops are probably 90% electronic payments/eftpos and 10% cash, and use phone or internet banking for everything else. People have switched to paywave most the time now in shops, the swipe card system is almost obsolete I think, deliberately it appears as many cards need swiping a few times now. A conspiracy to force people to use the chip or paywave, therefore shops get charged a commission as it goes against visa!
            How wierd that you still use cheques.
            xx
            xx

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yeah, Kirsten, some people still get paid by check, and use checks to make payments. We’re slowly changing. The debit card I get my SSDI benefits on will soon be the only option, rather than mailing out checks. I only have one place that doesn’t take electronic payment, and that’s the trailer park. For them, I have to go make an ATM withdrawal and buy a money order because I don’t have a bank account.

            People get used to change slowly. I remember some people not wanting to give up a hand-stamped version of a savings passbook when switching to monthly statements instead.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Kristen

            Thanks Annie. We’re almost completely electronic now, as I replied to the Ghost below.
            xx

          • Raphael

            That’s what it’s all about…these little acts of kindness that show caring and that can make a huge difference in someone’s life. Sometimes it is even more powerful from a stranger!

          • Kristen

            Re strangers..yip, agree completely. I think because strangers only see the current state affecting someone, or listen to the main focus, all that the person discusses. Its easier by blocking out everything else out, focussing on the main core.
            Although theres a fine line between strangers, and just downright strange!!
            I dont get who decided people we dont know are called strangers, based on the word strange…perhaps the ones who made up English words are the true philosophers, knowing something we dont know!!
            Money is not love…true, but it makes it easier to show love when you have the means to provide as you wish to, fill the car with gas, take loved ones out or on a holiday, buy a treat and have the time financially to relax and be a good stranger! In this world the two are a handshake, great companions.
            Might listen to People Are Strange, love it. I think my addiction is music!
            xx

          • Jethro

            Thank you Kirstie, I have no doubts that everyone you mention would hold that position well. Kyra is 9. She was conceived with a woman that said she couldn’t have children, then during that contemplative time when I decided it was time to change and I had said I didn’t want to have a romantic relationship with her anymore, she then announced she was pregnant. I managed to remain another three years. I found a new bottom during that time and went through rehabilitation. I was a better daddy to Kyra than my other three children as I also stepped into the roll of mother quite often. It killed me to leave her, but men don’t have any rights as parents, even the lawyer was snotty when I asked about having custody of her before I left. I couldn’t just be the father, I would have to prove her mother was unfit to be a mother and I wasn’t going to badmouth anyone and I knew I wasn’t mentally fit to handle the court battle. So, I left and though it took a couple years, I regained my sanity. I’m going to try and contact them first and let them know I’ll be showing up to reduce any shock.

            It’s wonderful helping others be human isn’t it? We are the same way with our customers. Heck, we are that way with people needing assistance wherever we recognize it. It’s a traditional human response. I’m happy to say that I’m witnessing it more and more again. Somebody must be setting a good example!!!!

            Thanks again for your kind words and input. It’s very important for every father to know what you have told me concerning their daughters. My mother recently told me the same thing, nearly verbatim.

          • Kristen

            Wise mother, daddy daughter relationships are one of the lost keys in society, in my view anyway. I actually think thats why so many turn to God…as a replacement Dad. And more men turn to Jesus, as a brother. I wonder if they ever imagined they would be put in that role, the silent therapists creating an outlet for people to think out loud, receiving clarity as they pray or talk, from hearing their own words. Most therapist overrate mother child bonds, they forget the difference dads make, the missing link in a screwed up world. Perhaps they just dont know.

            Its good that Kyra is only 9, even if it takes a couple of years to get there, youll still be there for her important years, teens and her 20s. Most men are dads at their best when theyre teenage dads, or in their 40s or 50s, the years between are consumed with drama and bills, ‘daddying’ often put to one side, not realised until people have another child later, as you did, or they have the time with grandkids, realising all they missed. We were all lucky, Im the youngest born when my parents were just 22 and almost 21, a young cool dad, then when he remarried, he had my 3 siblings in his 40s, great age for us all. Although as he puts it, ‘Dont ask me to ever look after any blooooody grandkids, I did my time parenting for almost 50 years, Im out on parole’. Haha.

            Yip re helping others…I know you do at work which is why I wrote plumbers in. I think its everyones job, as adult humans, and work is where we meet all those people.
            Good luck, and have a good weekend.
            K
            xx

          • Jethro

            Hi Kirsty, I wrote this and saved it because I had to go to work but here it is.
            I’m sure you’re a very cherished member of your community. I trust you are teaching your boys these very important bits of information. As uncomfortable as it may be for some, mothers should explain to their sons something about female sexuality. I had to ask… as an adult… and I talked to my mother about it. I told her dad had some strange ideas and she was quick to point out that my father had many wrong ideas and she couldn’t tell him anything. So many of life’s lessons, important ones, being kept secret because it’s considered uncomfortable to talk about. I raised my older daughters to know that most men were just boys but older, and they as women, would most likely be mothers to the children “and” the husband unless they took control and made their dudes man-up. Like a parent teaches a child, don’t give in if you really want change. my oldest daughter manages a deli and I think she has kicked her husbands tail a few times, the younger one teaches mentally challenged children, she asked her mentally challenged husband to leave, and then demanded it. I haven’t met the new guy yet. I’ve heard he’s a good guy. But I still have to give him the speech, the one that leaves him hanging in a tree naked in a remote location if he ever hits her or the kids. It must work, my sisters husband never hit her, and my daughters haven’t been hit. My son was warned that he would never be to old for an a$$-whoopin. It’s about the only good thing my father ever taught me concerning girls and I don’t allow it from anyone. Anyway, I’m very proud of my girls and their strength and they know they can drop their guard at dads house. I do hair and nails and shop easily in the women’s department. My step daughter called me her part time gay dad, and my current wife wondered if I was gay lol, I said really? Do you realize I have 4 daughters who needed a man in their life? A real man does hair and nails!! Daddy’s let girls know that comfortable clothes are ok and why high heels were invented, and daddy’s need to teach his girls the difference between respectfully sexy and hooker clothes!! They attract different kinds of men…which could keep daddies out of jail.

          • Kristen

            Hi ya,
            Im listening. I havnt replied to the other one yet, as both these things, Babel, and this one are linked…Im being Kabbalic and just listening before I reply, the exact opposite of how it may appear!
            When I go to reply either my tablet charge dies, or phone that I use as a wifi modum at work dies, I use the same charger for both, or work gets busy, or like now, I really need to clear work emails and download photos of cakes people want and do quotes, so Im just rolling with it, that Im not meant to reply about the Babel one yet…language is majic…look at babe, in the word Babel. With Kabbalah, if something ‘works’ hunches and theories are generally right, its what Monks and Rabbi Priests used to do, uncover secrets. Until I reply, Ill tell you that Eve was the Tree of Life and still is, Adam ate from it, people just assume he didnt!
            Not being cryptic, just need to wash my hair before the boys get home and drain the hot water cylinder, then get onto emails, change of plans already!!
            xx

          • Jethro

            You reply as you get time or are ready. I don’t understand how this reply would effect an explanation on heaven lives, and how God is spending years with humans, but like you, I’ll roll with it.
            I’m not getting anything from “babe” in babel except youth and I’m not a good guesser. The metaphor concerning Adam and Eve is also different from what I was taught. I spent years confused by what I was told about the stories in the bible and the fact that I believed something was misunderstood. Desperately misunderstood! You have some interesting views I would like to know more about.

            I don’t recommend tankless water heaters but some people like them.

        • Kristen

          Howdy,
          Re your opening topic.
          Sorry to butt in…..butt.
          When you were awol, off killing Mewabe to replace him as his ghost, there was a sit com. A crazy sitcom, didnt end well, I even suspect with tears (not mine). I think that was the circus one, there were even TV character nicknames. You missed a good show! I gave updates.
          I might observe and see how it goes ! Start one. Stay off topic..thats the key! I live in a sitcom..daughter is just back from 7 weeks on a Europe Contiki tour..her most interesting news was getting names printed on M&Ms, and her fascination with her Titanic Museum mug….go figure!!!!!!!!!
          Xx

          • Raphael

            Butt of course feel free to butt in!
            Too bad I missed the show…that’s what happens when I am not here, everything falls apart ha ha…
            Did your daughter bring you back a t-shirt? Or a frog to later being turn into a prince?

          • Kristen

            Yip…you cursed us when you left…dad!
            All you need to know is the parable of the onion, or anything in life. The outer skin will be the same as the core..but the layers are often fun! And the end will always tie in with the beginning in a full circle if people bother to take note. It started with the moderator drama, when Neale made it clear there was no moderator…and the last post was someone asking Neale to get the moderator to remove posts with their name in them, after over 500 posts!! Wtf? That wierd energy we mentioned in here took over. I tried to be Mom but ended up looking like Cruella DeVille! The villian! : )

            Curious to see if wierd stuff happens now youve mentioned sit com, and someone mentioned moderating or posts disappearing again!

            Nope re a t-shirt, Im not 8 or a boy, I dont wear them. BUT we have a family joke my dad started when we were kids, inadvertantly. When anyone goes away you are only allowed to get them an airport gift on the way home, a statement that you werent thinking of them at all! Toblerone chocolate is the default, I ate the huge bar in 3 days! Oh, and a luuuurvly Singapore Airlines plane bag with socks that I wore today and already have a toehole, a mini toothbrush, mini toothpaste and dettol wipes! We usually try to get the crappiest gifts possible like a teatowel, nail clippers or an ugly beanie, anything under $10!
            Poor dad being the family joke, he was being a good dad buying us boxes of lego duty free and Im sure mum really needed 100 different perfumes!
            Re the frog prince..nope. I have my heart set on a Walmart carpark guy. My hearts already there, and Ive dug out my November Rain wedding dress. Annie and Biscuit are looking forward to a pink iced donut with sprinkles from dunkin donuts. My wedding song can be Mad World, and the other people in the carpark can do the people art like on the clip. Wanna go as well?, itll be the party of the year!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I am coming to the party! How many barrels of cheap and crappy Walmart chocolate candies should I bring? (Am I going to get sued for this comment?)
            I am 8 and a boy, so I wear t-shirts. And jeans. And a buffalo robe in the winter (not).
            Yes everything always goes full circle, which is why I am going to be 4 in 4 years (I am now 8…try to keep up!)
            When it comes to otherworldly stuff, many people get lost in what Patrick would call woo woo land. It takes a strong psychological and spiritual foundation to navigate these things without loosing your marbles. You have to clear your heart and mind of all unnecessary baggages, otherwise you start projecting, like people who use mind altering drugs and release some of the content of their unconscious, and go crazy, become psychotic.

          • Kristen

            Cool…..Ill get names printed on M&Ms, and bring duty free toblerone, screw Walmart cheap ones, Im just there to meet the hot clientele base in the carpark!
            Might even splash out and hire a trombone player!
            Apologies, I removed my butt in comment…your reply didnt show up so I removed mine to allow the flow of your chat…now yours shows up!
            Grrr!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yeeha! The ghost is coming to the party! 😀

          • Kristen

            Wahoo!!
            He just wants a pink donut with sprinkles!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            No way…I am a health nut (and a bad seed).

          • Kristen

            Boring old fart! Im a health nut too…only in Macadamia season, roasted with lots of salt!
            If you havnt had a dunkin donuts pink iced donut with sprinkles you havnt lived!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I haven’t lived…or at least I don’t remember, I am only a ghost!

          • Kristen

            Aaaahhhhh, another mystery solved. Ill tell the FBI since theyre going through all of Mewabes computer stuff to solve his murder.
            Common cause of death, lack of living!
            Next time your hitting Walmart dare you to get a pink iced donut. Yheyre called strawberry iced, but dont say that, theyre dumb and may give you the strawberry flavoured one that tastes like vomit.
            Just say “one pink iced with sprinkles please”. You get extra man cards!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Do I really have to say please?

          • Kristen

            Haha. Lucky you get it from dunkin donuts next door, not walmart then!!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Kirsten,

            Your family joke sounds like something my mother would have done. Only we traveled by car, so it would have been cheap truck stop curiosities from each state that was driven through. Shot glasses with cheesy slogans, bandanas or “‘do rags” in ugly colors, funky keychains… Yep, sounds exactly like her. Thanks for the smile.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Kristen

            Haha love it.
            So much more fun than touristy tshirts! I can just see her collection of ‘treasures’…I wonder if that cousin with the secong hand or antique shop that ended up with your mothers stuff sold them in tbeir shop!
            I once got my son a set of 6 ugly keyrings in the shape of Kiwis from the airport, butt ugly, the uglier the better! You know the game!
            The hilarious thing is that some people used to actually collect tspoons and things from vacations. A friend got me one a couple of years ago, my worst nightmare.
            Take care Annie
            Xx

          • Spiritual_Annie

            It was Granny who had the spoon collection, LOL. They hung in a display case on her dining room wall. Some were old enough or special enough (she was the Republican delegate for her area in Ohio for years) they might be worth something. I’m sure some of them were real silver.

            My sister’s father-in-law was a drinker, so he had the collection of shot glasses. And every promotional glass for Jack that came out every Christmas, and all the Budweiser steins. Since it was a combo package liquor and second hand store, he’d set promotional stuff for those two brands aside for himself. Ballcaps, coolers, neon signs, all of it. His whole house, except for the kitchen, was a man cave. Mean old redneck, he was.

            I can imagine some of their customers out in their neck o’ the woods would have gone for some of the prank stuff, only they might not buy it as a prank.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Kristen

            Haha. I love watching people shop, especially at airports. I can only hope theyre buying prank gifts! If not, the world is in a worse state that I thought!
            My garage is a redneck man cave, my son took it over when he was around 18. Complete with old 80s pick up truck thats been worked on for probably 5 years now!
            Except a lot of stuff there is jokes…my neighbour gave him a hideous two foot blow up palm tree that sits proudly as does an old op shop surfboard with constant writing over it, gets scrubbed occasionally then they start again. One of my contributions was a pair of mechanics overalls…made for a 8′ man I think, that hang proudly in a corner, anyone too drunk has to wear them. His mancave is complete with an 80s old school big brick bbq area, and smoke house. Far too many nights of drunk or half drunk 20 year olds sitting staring at fire like morons! Probably more cos I banned bongs from the garage, where he finds his 50 friends is beyond me!
            How a kid born in the mid 90s in the city suburbs became a redneck 80s freak is beyond me..hes a builder so even wears the check flannel shirts and dad dances around the house singing dreadful 80s songs. Takes up far too much space as hes 6′ but never stops but at least hes always in a good mood, if nothing else. Haha. Idiot child that one! He’d have a mancave house too! Probably with one of those half cars made into a couch, I dread it!
            Take care,
            Xx

        • Jethro

          I am slowly responding, I have not gone away from this conversation. Starting work early and finishing late is taking its toll.

          • Raphael

            No response required…unless you really feel like responding. I felt like writing these comments, but when I do anything in life it is never to get something back, it is always without any expectations. That’s what freedom feels like to me…no obligations of any kind.

            I can relate about long working hours!

  • Spiritual_Annie

    I really, honestly found this just yesterday by following a link in an article I was reading in my morning news digest. It’s long, but it’s relevant. The organization is small and they don’t have big name scientists signing up, but it says in its many words so much of what I haven’t had the words for—until now. I’m not “anti-science,” I’m a “post-materialist.”

    This comes from the website for the organization Open Science, laying out their argument against material science exclusively, and how they believe science should move forward:

    1. The modern scientific worldview is predominantly predicated on assumptions that are closely associated with classical physics. Materialism—the idea that matter is the only reality—is one of these assumptions. A related assumption is reductionism, the notion that complex things can be understood by reducing them to the interactions of their parts, or to simpler or more fundamental things such as tiny material particles.

    2. During the 19th century, these assumptions narrowed, turned into dogmas, and coalesced into an ideological belief system that came to be known as “scientific materialism.” This belief system implies that the mind is nothing but the physical activity of the brain, and that our thoughts cannot have any effect upon our brains and bodies, our actions, and the physical world.

    3. The ideology of scientific materialism became dominant in academia during the 20th century. So dominant that a majority of scientists started to believe that it was based on established empirical evidence, and represented the only rational view of the world.

    4. Scientific methods based upon materialistic philosophy have been highly successful in not only increasing our understanding of nature but also in bringing greater control and freedom through advances in technology.

    5. However, the nearly absolute dominance of materialism in the academic world has seriously constricted the sciences and hampered the development of the scientific study of mind and spirituality. Faith in this ideology, as an exclusive explanatory framework for reality, has compelled scientists to neglect the subjective dimension of human experience. This has led to a severely distorted and impoverished understanding of ourselves and our place in nature.

    6. Science is first and foremost a non-dogmatic, open-minded method of acquiring knowledge about nature through the observation, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Its methodology is not synonymous with materialism and should not be committed to any particular beliefs, dogmas, or ideologies.

    7. At the end of the nineteenth century, physicists discovered empirical phenomena that could not be explained by classical physics. This led to the development, during the 1920s and early 1930s, of a revolutionary new branch of physics called quantum mechanics (QM). QM has questioned the material foundations of the world by showing that atoms and subatomic particles are not really solid objects—they do not exist with certainty at definite spatial locations and definite times. Most importantly, QM explicitly introduced the mind into its basic conceptual structure since it was found that particles being observed and the observer—the physicist and the method used for observation—are linked. According to one interpretation of QM, this phenomenon implies that the consciousness of the observer is vital to the existence of the physical events being observed, and that mental events can affect the physical world. The results of recent experiments support this interpretation. These results suggest that the physical world is no longer the primary or sole component of reality, and that it cannot be fully understood without making reference to the mind.

    8. Psychological studies have shown that conscious mental activity can causally influence behavior, and that the explanatory and predictive value of agentic factors (e.g. beliefs, goals, desires and expectations) is very high. Moreover, research in psychoneuroimmunology indicates that our thoughts and emotions can markedly affect the activity of the physiological systems (e.g., immune, endocrine, cardiovascular) connected to the brain. In other respects, neuroimaging studies of emotional self-regulation, psychotherapy, and the placebo effect demonstrate that mental events significantly influence the activity of the brain.

    9. Studies of the so-called “psi phenomena” indicate that we can sometimes receive meaningful information without the use of ordinary senses, and in ways that transcend the habitual space and time constraints. Furthermore, psi research demonstrates that we can mentally influence—at a distance—physical devices and living organisms (including other human beings). Psi research also shows that distant minds may behave in ways that are nonlocally correlated, i.e. the correlations between distant minds are hypothesized to be unmediated (they are not linked to any known energetic signal), unmitigated (they do not degrade with increasing distance), and immediate (they appear to be simultaneous). These events are so common that they cannot be viewed as anomalous nor as exceptions to natural laws, but as indications of the need for a broader explanatory framework that cannot be predicated exclusively on materialism.

    10. Conscious mental activity can be experienced in clinical death during a cardiac arrest (this is what has been called a “near-death experience” [NDE]). Some near-death experiencers (NDErs) have reported veridical out-of-body perceptions (i.e. perceptions that can be proven to coincide with reality) that occurred during cardiac arrest. NDErs also report profound spiritual experiences during NDEs triggered by cardiac arrest. It is noteworthy that the electrical activity of the brain ceases within a few seconds following a cardiac arrest.

    11. Controlled laboratory experiments have documented that skilled research mediums (people who claim that they can communicate with the minds of people who have physically died) can sometimes obtain highly accurate information about deceased individuals. This further supports the conclusion that mind can exist separate from the brain.

    12. Some materialistically inclined scientists and philosophers refuse to acknowledge these phenomena because they are not consistent with their exclusive conception of the world. Rejection of post-materialist investigation of nature or refusal to publish strong science findings supporting a post-materialist framework are antithetical to the true spirit of scientific inquiry, which is that empirical data must always be adequately dealt with. Data which do not fit favored theories and beliefs cannot be dismissed a priori. Such dismissal is the realm of ideology, not science.

    13. It is important to realize that psi phenomena, NDEs in cardiac arrest, and replicable evidence from credible research mediums, appear anomalous only when seen through the lens of materialism.

    14. Moreover, materialist theories fail to elucidate how brain could generate the mind, and they are unable to account for the empirical evidence alluded to in this manifesto. This failure tells us that it is now time to free ourselves from the shackles and blinders of the old materialist ideology, to enlarge our concept of the natural world, and to embrace a post-materialist paradigm.

    15. According to the post-materialist paradigm:

    a) Mind represents an aspect of reality as primordial as the physical world. Mind is fundamental in the universe, i.e. it cannot be derived from matter and reduced to anything more basic.

    b) There is a deep interconnectedness between mind and the physical world.

    c) Mind (will/intention) can influence the state of the physical world, and operate in a nonlocal (or extended) fashion, i.e. it is not confined to specific points in space, such as brains and bodies, nor to specific points in time, such as the present. Since the mind may nonlocally influence the physical world, the intentions, emotions, and desires of an experimenter may not be completely isolated from experimental outcomes, even in controlled and blinded experimental designs.

    d) Minds are apparently unbounded, and may unite in ways suggesting a unitary, One Mind that includes all individual, single minds.

    e) NDEs in cardiac arrest suggest that the brain acts as a transceiver of mental activity, i.e. the mind can work through the brain, but is not produced by it. NDEs occurring in cardiac arrest, coupled with evidence from research mediums, further suggest the survival of consciousness, following bodily death, and the existence of other levels of reality that are non-physical.

    f) Scientists should not be afraid to investigate spirituality and spiritual experiences since they represent a central aspect of human existence.

    16. Post-materialist science does not reject the empirical observations and great value of scientific achievements realized up until now. It seeks to expand the human capacity to better understand the wonders of nature, and in the process rediscover the importance of mind and spirit as being part of the core fabric of the universe. Post-materialism is inclusive of matter, which is seen as a basic constituent of the universe.

    17. The post-materialist paradigm has far-reaching implications. It fundamentally alters the vision we have of ourselves, giving us back our dignity and power, as humans and as scientists. This paradigm fosters positive values such as compassion, respect, and peace. By emphasizing a deep connection between ourselves and nature at large, the post-materialist paradigm also promotes environmental awareness and the preservation of our biosphere. In addition, it is not new, but only forgotten for four hundred years, that a lived transmaterial understanding may be the cornerstone of health and wellness, as it has been held and preserved in ancient mind-body-spirit practices, religious traditions, and contemplative approaches.

    18. The shift from materialist science to post-materialist science may be of vital importance to the evolution of the human civilization. It may be even more pivotal than the transition from geocentrism to heliocentrism.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Since Annie reposted this, I will copy my response again:

      There is so much wrong with this, that I barely know where to start. What you have here is a bunch of whiners who are upset because they can’t provide compelling, objective evidence for their woo, so it must be the fault of those mean “mainstream” scientists. Boo hoo.

      There are so many key points: One is in #4. It works:

      4. Scientific methods based upon materialistic philosophy have been highly successful in not only increasing our understanding of nature but also in bringing greater control and freedom through advances in technology.”

      The manifesto goes on to whine that their woo has been restricted – and they are right. It’s been restricted by the absence of useful results and the compelling, objective evidence upon which the process of science is based. Had such results been forthcoming, they would not be in this position of whining about their failure to prove their hypotheses. This is sour grapes.

      Number 7 is nonsense. Physicists, almost universally, no longer believe that human consciousness is responsible for collapsing the wave function – the act of measuring, is what does it, and that measurer, i.e. observer, can be, and usually is, completely inanimate. Conscious people do not have to be actually watching or observing for “the measurement” and collapse of the wave function to occur. This is all debunked Deepak Chopra woo.

      If we create the world from our consciousness, how did the universe come into being before there were any conscious beings?

      None of the primary signers of the manifesto is a physicist. Since when are psychologists qualified to comment on quantum field theory? The document is signed by four psychologists, one social anthropologist, one medical doctor, one neuroscientist, and one biologist. Why should we have any confidence in their credibility to draw conclusions about a complex subject in an entirely different field of science than what they are practiced in?

      There is too much to go through and debunk point by point and any evidence provided to refute it will make a believer double-down on their belief. It’s a mental condition suffered by many. For a more detailed critique see: ‘Post-Materialist’ Science? A Smokescreen for Woo,Sadri Hassani, Skeptical Inquirer Volume 39.5, September/October 2015

      Hey these people have every opportunity to prove they are right. All they have to do is bring compelling, objective evidence and submit it for peer review in the appropriate journals and if what they offer has value, the scientific community will be forced to consider it. I used to believe all this too – then I started actually reading about the science. I fought it for a while, like most with confirmation bias, but eventually had to admit that real science kicks woo’s butt up the street and back again. The scientists who developed the core theory, the standard model of science, have a huge, huge, huge advantage over the woo-meisters. They have overwhelming evidence, with countless experiments providing objective evidence.

      I do like the way Skeptical Inquiry puts it: “There are three categories of scientists (MDs included):

      Those who do mainstream science.
      Those mainstreamers who bend the mainstream.

      Those who leave the mainstream and turn into crackpots.
”

      I’ve read the woo stuff, the god stuff, the out of body stuff, the reincarnation stuff, the astral travel stuff, etc. I’ve been fair to both sides. Have you? This is a case of cognitive bias, isn’t it? Easy to believe what you already believe. Much harder and requiring far more courage is to actively seek out information that challenges closely held beliefs. System1 thinkers have trouble with that.

      • Craig

        Patrick
        You are a righteous person… Two out of three for Micah 6:8 requirements, your scoring is higher than mine… As you said the parable of the talents. You are really working with your talent, you do not bury it.
        I should say closer to an awakened species than I am.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Very kind.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        I am curious. Do you think that the points made in #1, that materialism and reductionism are assumptions, is accurate? If not, why not?

        What about the statement in #3, that scientific materialism became so dominant that it was assumed to be based on empirical evidence, implying that it’s not?

        What are your thoughts about scientific materialism being a dogmatic belief system?

        As you know, some of us here don’t discount the number and similarities of subjective experiences people have had. I posted this here because it proposed that there may be more to explore in science than the material world. I don’t agree with everything it says verbatim, but I do like that they’re willing to not just throw out subjective experiences as irrelevant.

        You mention the few people who wrote it, but not the 200 people who have signed it. I haven’t gone through and looked at all their credentials, but felt it only fair to mention that its reach goes beyond the few who wrote it.

        • Patrick Gannon

          I would disagree that pure science starts with any assumptions. Science seeks to understand the natural world. Period. Now, after a couple centuries of collecting data, making observations, conducting experiments, and so on, it is clear that all the compelling objective evidence supports a materialist natural world. Do scientists build off of that foundation? Sure, why not? Copernicus led to Newton led to Einstein led to Heisenberg, and so on. If aliens come visit us 1000 years from now, Newtonian laws of motion and Einsteinian laws of relativity will still be as valid as they are now. There may be new types of physics, but they will be built on what we have now. This technique of building on top or prior advancements has obviously been a successful model for learning more about our natural world.

          The authors are whining because they cannot topple this foundation, and that’s their job at this point. 1000 years ago the shoes were on the other foot. 1000 years ago (actually just a couple centuries ago), scientists had to overcome the foundation of woo and the other-worldly. They had to topple that foundation – and they did. Now the woo-meisters are facing the same position science once faced. They have every right to spout their beliefs, and conduct their experiments, but the burden of proof is on them now. The tide shifted. That’s just the way it is. They can get to work proving their hypotheses, or they can whine. They appear to have chosen to whine. And they seem not to understand that every experiment that takes place in a particle accelerator is indirectly conducting research on their hypotheses – it’s just that they don’t get the results they want to see. It’s not that the experiments aren’t taking place. These people are whining because the results don’t support what they believe.

          As for reductionism – isn’t that what CwG theology does? Everything reduces to one thing – to consciousness or god or essential essence or whatever woo word one chooses to use. It means even photons zipping through space for billions of years, possesses some attribute of consciousness. Several billion years ago, a photon sped across space, expelled from a star, all with the conscious motive of landing on a loved one and giving her melanoma???? I don’t think so. There is absolutely no evidence that photons or any other particle contain states or degrees of freedom or any other characteristic that might emerge from consciousness – or we’d have been able to observe and measure the consequences on the particles or our natural world.

          As I said above, the burden is on the woo-meisters. If they don’t like that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence does not support them, they have every right to try and overcome it. As far as (#3) asserting that materialism is not supported by empirical evidence – what do they mean? There are tons of evidence. Every physics experiment ever conducted is evidence; and they go on in (#4), as I said in my post, to acknowledge how successful it has been.

          It’s hard to see this as anything but a whine, with a last-gasp hope that quantum field theory will somehow support their views, even though it actually tells us that the likelihood that they are right, is so small as to be dismissed.

          I think the word “dogmatic” is being thrown around by whiners, whose belief system led to the dogma of the Catholic Church and other religions back before materialism debunked all that. They were the dogmatic ones back in the middle ages, but now they are on the outside looking in, and they don’t like it. Tough. Get to work. Do the hard work. Prove the materialists to be wrong. There are Nobel Prizes and global acclaim waiting.

          Of course they aren’t willing to throw out subjective experiences as irrelevant. What would they have left if they did that?

          As for the 200 signers – I doubt you’ll find too many important names on the list. You do realize that something like 200,000 PhDs are granted each year, so this number is infinitesimally small. Go to ‘thebestschools’ and look for ’50-influential-scientists-world-today’ and let me know if any of them are included in the list of 200.

          Annie, neurologists understand how these subjective experiences arise and they are starting to understand how memories are formed. Did you know that every time you pull up a memory and replay it, you are actually creating a whole new version of that memory – laying down a whole new track in your connectome?

          What happens with a memory, is that something sparks the brain – a smell, a sight, a discussion, and for lack of a better word, a “token” is used to restore the state of the brain at the time the memory was last active. It restores the wiring, the synapse firing that was happening in the prior recall of the memory.

          If other things happen to affect that memory while it is being laid down again, such as your emotions, an event you experienced, saw or heard about, it can be ingrained into your original memory, creating a new (and false) memory that is every bit as strong as what you started with.

          For example. You are attending your high school graduation. You are happy and anxious, and scared, thinking about the future. Some time later, you run into a classmate and the memory comes over you. The classmate asks if you remember the guy who fainted on his way to get his diploma. You were completely unaware of this event, perhaps sitting at the back of the class – or perhaps the classmate is talking about something that happened at another graduation – say his sister’s graduation. You hear the story of the guy who fainted, while your own memory is active, and that gets incorporated into your original memory. You meet up with friends months later and you recount your graduation, but this time, you remember and describe the fainting incident, which either you never observed in the first place, or which happened somewhere else. Nevertheless, the memory is as strong in you as if it had actually happened.

          This is what often happens when we believe we have had ESP experiences. Annie, you clearly haven’t read up on the subject. It seems you have only one side of the discussion. You haven’t read up on the neurology and psychology of the brain. If you’d like to remedy that, I would suggest starting with “Brain Myths Exploded: Lessons from Neuroscience.”

          • Jethro

            “As for reductionism – isn’t that what CwG theology does? Everything reduces to one thing – to consciousness or god or essential essence or whatever woo word one chooses to use. It means even photons zipping through space for billions of years, possesses some attribute of consciousness.”
            I personally did not get the understanding that all things had a consciousness, I understood it as “everything is energy”, the same energy but individualized, which I can believe is true. It’s after that, the titles, labels, guesses of origin begin. Is everything predestined? It doesn’t really matter, it does us no good to believe that unless we learn to predict it. Unless we get peace from believing something was supposed to happen. I don’t see any of that as being much different than reducing the universe to atoms, seeing everything as atoms and calling the whole mess a hologram or some form of projection or computed program. I can actually wrap my mind around that one too, but it’s not my experience. We can reduce the universe to a mathematical equation or assign it a binary code, but would everyone understand it? All we really have is the computed thoughts about anything based on how we have been programed. I mean, beliefs (or knowing for some) based on our experiences.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I guess it would help to have Neale clarify the issue, but for me, it wasn’t so much an “energy” as a consciousness, because energy does not have conversations – consciousness does. Neale claims God is not separate from man, or from anything else in the universe, and he claims to communicate with this “consciousness” at a personal level.

            Hmm, I just did a little searching in CwG1 and there’s little question in my mind that Neale is referring to a universal consciousness:

            “Events, occurrences, happenings, conditions, circumstances—all are created out of consciousness.” CwG1 The word “conscious” or “consciousness” is used 60 times in CwG1, but he also uses the word “energy” 53 times, so I think he’s trying to cover his bases.

            Irregardless, Annie’s whining apologists seems to be upset that science continues to dive down, down, down, layer after layer, trying to get to the bottom of what makes up our natural world. At the moment, the best proposal is string theory. If Neale simply asserted that everything was energy, that wouldn’t be unscientific, but he asserts that this energy is conscious – else how would it communicate with him?

            Actually if his god knew anything about quantum field theory he would have told Neale, back in the 90s that everything is made up of vibrating fields, or provided some other useful information that would confirm a knowledge base greater than what Neale possessed to begin with. His god might have predicted that we’d find the Higgs field and come to understand how particles get their mass, which was only theorized back then.

            As we know, messengers, prophets and gods never, ever know more about future technology than what is available at the time they are writing. Neale was writing in the 90’s and we’ve learned so much in the last 25 years, that I suspect if he was writing it now, it would be much different. He’d be all wrapped up in quantum woo, attempting to leverage the ignorance of the masses, as so many New Age woo-meisters do. Quantum field theory is the most successful theory ever devised. The predictions it provides are accurate to an amazing number of decimal points. Neale doesn’t even use the word “quantum” in his book in the 90s. His god knew nothing then of quantum field theory, or surely it would have come up in discussion. His god would have surely leveraged early proposals about the role of consciousness in quantum mechanics, (even though that has now been disavowed and is no longer supported other than by a few in the fringe).

            There is absolutely no evidence that any consciousness force affects our natural world. If there was, we’d know about it by now.
            Neale, I’m afraid, was hallucinating or delusional, or made it all up.

          • Jethro

            It would help to have many authors clarify some of their “way too mystical to be true” material. I don’t have the books, but I know that anything related to a humans brain and a humans thought about it, would be involving consciousness. Consciousness then creates the woo based on the thoughts about it. Of course people will understand whatever they want based on their knowledge and beliefs at any given time pertaining to almost any subject. I know my thoughts have changed quite a bit over the past several years.

            I have chosen to place all understandings of spirituality in the human brain, everything comes from the brain until I’ve seen proof otherwise. Here’s the catch, I am the author that has not clarified my statement. I’m sure people would argue that trees or mountains do not come from the human brain. Of course you can choose any physical natural object you like and say that it does not come from the human brain and be correct. My only provable argument would be invented items, though many arguments still remain. But I’m not even talking about physical objects in my original statement. It’s an easy misunderstanding, and when your not planning to have to argue every syllable of a paragraph, or explain every topic, you don’t word it in such a way to explain it to every member of the audience. Sometimes it’s best to leave some things to guess or develop a personal understanding anyway. What I got out of it and what Neale meant could be totally different as I’m sure it has happened across the board. I personally don’t think it was divine intervention, but that doesn’t mean Neale doesn’t believe it. Either way, I applaud his desire to bring about a peaceful resolution to the earths bad attitude. He’s touching some people in positive ways. Though I’ll add, there are some nut jobs out there who will use the information in the worst way.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Consciousness then creates the woo based on the thoughts about it.” I like that. You do come up with pearls of wisdom from time to time!

            ” I’m sure people would argue that trees or mountains do not come from the human brain.” Some people, including any New Agers who ascribe to quantum woo that says our consciousness creates the physical world, rather than the other way around, would only disagree, insofar as they would say it doesn’t come from the brain, but comes from consciousness. Of course there is no consciousness without an operational brain, but they seem to discount that.

            Another way to look at it though, is that our “perceptions” of trees and mountains do take place in the brain, so in that sense, I guess it could be argued that trees and hills are products of the brain; but that’s a bit of a stretch and serves little practical purpose. There actually are trees and mountains. They aren’t just perceptions in our brains.

            “I applaud his desire to bring about a peaceful resolution to the earths bad attitude.” I do too – I just wish he could figure out a way to do this without requiring that we lie to ourselves (i.e. believe things for which there is no compelling, objective evidence).

          • Jethro

            I appreciate the compliment very much my friend. You don’t throw those around often.
            I don’t agree that consciousness “creates” the physical world. That would mean everything I see and am experiencing is meant just for me. That would make me real and everything around me is just part of my imagination, this conversation makes you invented by me. I think what they mean is we create our own “thoughts” about this life and what we experience. We create our own reality by how we “think” about it and can create changes to that and that alone.
            “I just wish he could figure out a way to do this without requiring that we lie to ourselves (i.e. believe things for which there is no compelling, objective evidence).” I’ve said it before, Some folks are just in need of another idea to come down from a higher, more damaging, judgmental, fantasy world. I was convinced I was doomed to hell until I read CWG and began to think about a better way for myself. Since each and every person has a different way of thinking about life, and God, and all of the experiences, which differ from person to person even if growing up side by side. Each idea about life needs a perspective that relates to them in order to at least give a spark of change, to create the desired change. I needed some of Neale’ woo for me to come to a different understanding that has allowed me to create a better way of thinking for myself. That does not mean I agree with “everything” Neale wrote, It means I got out of it what I needed. If that is happening for others as well, then Neale’ books are valid. I don’t separate the brain from it’s computations, the brain is the origin of thoughts and everything related to that is … Brain.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Once again, I can find little or nothing to disagree with here! I agree that CwG can offer a stepping stone from fear to reason, but I fear that delving into imagined superheroes like HEBs and “awakened species” is a step away from reason.

          • Jethro

            The HEB’s. More to the point, interdimensional alien life forms. I learned more about them in book 4. I’ll finish the book before saying much because I don’t know if I understand it yet, but their roll as I understand it so far, takes away from the Brain. HEB’s are the reason for feelings we get at times creating comfort or discomfort related to choices we are making. The feelings that I understand to come from a persons conscience, thoughts creating a chemical reaction, effecting the brain, using experiences when triggering our memory which reminds us how something made us feel in the past during a similar action, however slightly related, recreating an emotion, however weak, and we recognize that as good or bad. That job belongs to the brain, as every job does.
            But! The reason for the statement in the first place… Why the use of HEB’s? I’m still waiting for an answer and I hope to find it in the book. I first understood HEB’s to be humans. Aside from believing that all humans are equal, nobody above or below. I can see how some would have better ideas of the peace most wish to see happening around the world and a better path to it. I can call that a highly evolved being.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Interdimensional alien life forms”! Bwahahahahaha. I’m sure the book is full of compelling, objective evidence for these things? No? LOL. Your description takes away human credit for human emotions and gives that control to imaginary beings! I guess we are just a simulation!

          • Craig

            NLP in action, nicely summarized Patrick.
            Experience requires the use of our senses to create an easy recoverable memory. That is Nero science.
            But the opposite is also possible. We can experience something that has such an emotional impact on us that it is involuntary recalled and responded to when associated sensory recall is triggered.
            Both triggered by a sensory observation. Why can we control the cognitive recall but the emotional recall controls us…
            Is that not the difference from materialism and spiritualism.
            Science versus God???

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m not entirely sure I understand your question. We can certainly control our emotions. I do it frequently using mindfulness. The trick is to quickly be aware of the need or desire to do so.

            Is “Nero science” a play on the word neuroscience? I assume so.

          • Craig

            Neuroscience is the correct word… I shortcut my answer…
            Science tries to understand and explain what God has created. Be the God the big bang, something greater we will not know we can just assume and trust.
            Emotional stable individuals can do what you do but 80% people are emotionally controlled.
            I have had great chats with you and find your approach really interesting. Keep triggering others thoughts to discover reality it may help us appreciate an alternative realm more than you may think.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Science tries to understand and explain what God has created.”

            NO, I’m afraid it does not, Craig. Science tries to understand the natural world. That’s it.

            You are asserting a god. The role of science would be to confirm whether or not that god is part of our natural world. Thus far all the evidence (or lack thereof) says it is not. We can explain our natural world without any gods. They only make the explanation more convoluted and difficult. For one thing, if we assert a god, then we have to explain it. Occam’s Razor – all things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one; and the explanations for our natural world are simpler without invoking gods. Do you know the expression, “It’s turtles all the way down!”

            I disagree that only 20% of people are capable of learning mindfulness. It’s not that hard. It just takes a little persistence. it could be argued that we should teach it in school.

            I’ve enjoyed the chats as well. Challenging our own minds and each other, is good for all of us.

          • Craig

            Do not know the expression… Live on the other side of the planet.
            Why does science want to understand the beginning of the world… To understand the chemicals and how to use them correct is the science worth spending money on…
            Science can never explain a God it’s tools are the wrong ones. I will stop mentioning God when there is proof he does not exist. So let’s leave that debate there we will disagree as long as we that there is a lot of logic in human life and through evolution we have become better off. Eventually living over 60 and not barely reaching it as was the average lifespan a century ago…
            As the Chinese say, control your mind or be controlled by it’s wondering thoughts… Maybe we should teach this before kids go to school the earlier the better.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Ah, a couple points of agreement! LOL. First the expression…

            “”Turtles all the way down” is an expression of the infinite regress problem in cosmology posed by the “unmoved mover” paradox. The metaphor in the anecdote represents a popular notion of the model that Earth is actually flat and is supported on the back of a World Turtle, which itself is propped up by a column of turtles.[1] Questioning what the final turtle might be standing on, the anecdote humorously concludes that it is “turtles all the way down”. (Wikipedia)

            “Science can never explain a God.” Perhaps not, but if this god had any impact on our natural world, we would be able to observe and document this. No such impact exists, so gods don’t matter.

            “I will stop mentioning God when there is proof he does not exist.” Then you will never stop mentioning God. How do we prove unicorns don’t exist? Science never attempts to “prove” anything, anyway. It attempts to understand the natural world, and as a result of the scientific method, it is ready at any time to abandon or modify any current theory, based on new evidence. Where science plays a role with God, is when believers insist that their god interacts in our natural world. That means interacting with particles, whether it’s firing synapses, releasing hormones, healing tissue, walking on water, turning water into wine, etc. When believers assert such things, they are inviting science to debunk them.

            Through evolution, we have adapted to our environment. “Better off” is a subjective issue. Maybe we were better off when people died at 50. Maybe our species was better off when that happened. We’ve essentially halted biological evolution. Natural selection no longer culls the weak and infirm. They live and reproduce, passing along genes that nature would have once eliminated. To overcome this, we have to evolve our minds to develop the technology to fix the genes that nature is no longer taking care of. That we have the possibility of doing so is pretty exciting.

            “As the Chinese say, control your mind or be controlled by it’s wondering thoughts… Maybe we should teach this before kids go to school the earlier the better.” Full agreement.

          • Craig

            Patrick yep the turtle in our differences may also go all the way down…
            Well stated “when believers assert… Science to debunk them.”
            If the god crutch does not work the god works through a fellow human… Ye, I’ve heard that one lot.
            To overcome this… Now is that not the excuse believers assume the guidance from god would be… Giving us insight, thoughts etc to fix the gene defect. Now that is the next argument we will get to further a god people have just heard of. Instead of one they truly trust in…
            Now may we return to the beginning. Everything we do is possible because we considered pros and con’s, established procedures and then applied a specific plan of action to achieve a result. Sounds a lot like the science you are referring to. Understanding something before working towards or with it.
            Now if we have the ability to design and make things to address our shortfalls, we may be doing good, but we may also just be creating a bigger problem. If we only let nature take it’s course.
            Subdue the earth it is true to it’s nature it will bring forth what is delivered into it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “To overcome this… Now is that not the excuse believers assume the guidance from god would be… Giving us insight, thoughts etc to fix the gene defect.”

            Exactly. That’s what they believe, but they don’t think through how that has to happen. In order for God to give us insight, he has to fire synapses in our brains. He would have to manipulate the matter in our natural world, and if that was happening, we would have discovered it by now. We might or might not be able to identify the magical force, but we would be able to see its effects. There are no such unexplained effects. If gods exist, they are moot. They do nothing that affects us here.

            “Now if we have the ability to design and make things to address our shortfalls, we may be doing good, but we may also just be creating a bigger problem. If we only let nature take it’s course.”

            Hmm. I wrestle with this. We’ve interrupted biological evolution for the human species, allowing individuals to live and reproduce, who would have been eliminated by natural selection in the past. Is it “good” that we are able to do this, or is it bad for the whole genome? Would it have been better if we had never discovered germs (like Jesus!). We’d die in our 40s, but we’d be evolving resistance to viruses, etc. in the same way Europeans developed resistance to smallpox, but native Americans did not , and suffered significantly because of it.

            On the other hand, as biological evolution is being thwarted, our top down social evolution is perhaps being enhanced, and giving us ways to solve problems like overpopulation (contraception), depletion of resources (space exploration), diseases or conditions no longer managed by evolution (gene splicing), and so on. When it comes to the entire human genome, I tend to agree with Neale, albeit with a slight twist, that there is no right or wrong – only evolution and where it takes us. What’s special about us, is that we have the ability to manipulate our own evolution.

            As for love, I’m not so sure. It might be overrated. Gals I have really loved, or thought/felt at the time that I really loved, turned out to be incompatible. Love is a biological thing, a release of hormones and firing of synapses. I adopted Robert Heinlein’s definition of love: “that condition in which the happiness of another is essential to your own.” My own happiness doesn’t depend a whole lot on the happiness of the rest of the human genome, but only select individuals; and even there it’s limited. Neale uses a line I like in one of his books, suggesting that instead of saying “I love you very much,” there are times when it makes more sense to say “I trade you very much.” More than love, I would promote communication.

            I also don’t think that “happiness” is all that great of a goal to aspire to. I’d rather be productive and remembered for doing something of value, than be happy and forgotten the day I drop dead. Are people who accomplish great things, seeking to be happy, or is that simply an occasional byproduct of their successes? I suspect the latter.

          • Craig

            With you Patrick
            That is a nice definition of love and very close to the Hebraic view on the Creators love towards the creation…
            Words words, and the word took on flesh…
            Happiness I concur a by-product of success.
            What we are exposed to at a very young age helps us become immune to it yet when the kindergarten says one is sick we rush and separate the children instead of leaving them to build their immune system. Well elaborated thanks.

  • Bishop Hollywood

    I believe it’s possible for us a human beings to love unconditionally and be who we really are. But in order to do it, we must let the fear go. We allow fear to stop us by allowing it to restrict ourselves from each other. Our first thought when we want to help someone is either, what do I get in return or what if they refuse my help. Consciousness knows that fear is only an illusion, but self-consciousness thinks it’s real, so it restrict itself because of fear of getting hurt or rejected. We have to learn to lean more into our conscious awareness by meditating and allowing love to come into ourselves. Dreams do come true but they come true to those who are willing to go against the flow and step outside the box. Be who really are and not care what others may think cause when you show them the love that they have been looking for, then they will understand why you act, think and do the things that you do. Be blessed brothers and sisters

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    Holy Guacamole! 333 posts as I write here. No wisdom from me today, only something funny. Yesterday I’m with a good friend at a local bar called the uPTowner and we jokingly call the uPChucker.

    Anyway we go into quite the lively fun animated discussion as I played a Twilight Zone pinball machine. (Ya I have a lot of man-child in me) and the pinball glass had a picture of Rod Sterling by the door with light surrounding him. Inside was a Curios Shop in which all the articles were references to TZ episodes. And we had a lot of fun looking for and finding which show they were from.

    So day I get a text from him about how much fun we had hanging out. When I dictate to him about our discussion of the Twilight Zone, Siri says “Toilet Soul”! That’s funny. Well at least to me it was. Enjoy your day guys, keep it light even as you are deep in thought & living.

    Remember “Angels fly, because they take themselves lightly.” I fly in my dreams because I lucid dream where I’m awake in the matrix of the dream. :-)

    • Sam

      Oh, you know Siri as well? And I thought she was my special friend, damn… :)

      Keep it light indeed.

      The drama of the earth takes us all, each and everyone with a story to tell, as the very point, from the experience of being smack in the middle of opposite contrasts of light and dark, pulling on us, and everything, back and forth. Because that is to feel alive. What we want.
      But it’s all an illusion, of course—being the light part. Who we really are is not humans, but gods, playing different roles. There are no problems for real. Problems are there for something to achieve, a pretty long process we simply love. To understand this, even a little bit, and things get lighter.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    This was a question sent to Neale Donald Walsch recently that may be of interest to TGC readers.

    My friend, here is a way that I have found to feel connected with
    God, and one with God, all of the time (or, in my case, at least much
    more of the time than I ever did before my CWG)….

    ….Love everyone and everything.

    Love the people you encounter every day in your life, and see their beauty.

    Love the pets that you care for, and see their beauty.

    Love the plants in your house, and see their beauty.

    Love the trees outside, and see their beauty.

    Love the bees and the ants and the spiders you catch glimpses of, and see their beauty.

    Love the furnishings in the rooms of your dwelling, and see their beauty.

    Love the dishes you eat off of, and the glasses that hold what you drink, and see their beauty.

    Love the shirt and the blouse you choose, and the jeans or slacks you select, this day and see their beauty.

    Love the shoes you pull out of your closet and put on your feet today, and see their beauty.

    Love the songs you’ve sung all your life, and see their beauty.

    Love the memories you’re holding of the people and places you’ve adored, and see their beauty.

    Personify everything!

    I personify my car. I personify my favorite sweater (which I’ve had for
    nearly 40 years) and actually talk to it when I put it on (twice a
    year, as a tradition, at Thanksgiving and Christmas), welcoming it back
    into my personal experience. I personify my favorite pillow, for heaven
    sake. I let myself love EVERYTHING that touches my life in a personal
    way. Books. Favorite pens. Even belts and ties that I pick out to go
    with a particular outfit. The ring that I wear on my right hand only
    when traveling.

    Am I a strange person? Probably. But I stay in touch with the part of
    me that loves, the part of me that is sentimental beyond description,
    the part of me that chooses to continue to experience the magic in life.

    And this helps me stay connected with God. Because I see that God IS
    the magic that makes my life feel wonderfully magical so much of the
    time.

    God, to me, is The Energy Itself that I call Love. And so whenever I
    feel it, I feel God in me. I feel connected with God. I feel One with
    God. I feel God in Me not for JUST MOMENTS, but for huge, HUGE amounts
    of my time upon the Earth this day. And all the days that I am given
    hereafter, however many or few they may be. Each day giving me another
    chance to love SOMETHING. And if that isn’t what it is like to be One
    with God, then I don’t know what is!

    I could, of course, be wrong about all of this. I can only tell you how it is with me.

    Lovingly offered………neale.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Thank you, Marko. Sometimes it helps to hear how someone makes the energy of Love part of their everyday life, rather than some hard to reach philosophical or Spiritual goal with no specifics.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

    • Patrick Gannon

      You could also read Ecclesiastes and get essentially the same message.

      Do I see a new acronym? TEI or The Energy Itself? I assume the caps have significance! (grin). All this “energy,” by the way, is the result of synapses firing in the brain, hormones like dopamine being released, etc.

      Not sure about the personification thing. Seems a bit self centered.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Hi Pat, what ever works & plays for any individual. What I took away from this is a way to appreciate so many mundane things in our life, from ants to your furniture, people etc.

        To love life is to enhance your own life through appreciation. Personification of things can be amusing and fun. What ever shakes our soda & gives us joy & appreciation.

        • Patrick Gannon

          “Personification of things can be amusing and fun.” Indeed it can. Have you ever seen Jeff Dunham’s show? He’s a ventriloquist. Sorry, this is a little of off-topic, but there’s a theory gaining ground that suggests that it is this property that gives rise to self-aware consciousness. In the same way that we observe other persons, things, animals, ventriloquist dummies, etc. and assign the property of “consciousness” to them – so too do we assign consciousness to ourselves.

          Our brains create this idea that a ventriloquist dummy is conscious, in order to make sense of what it is seeing, and because it helps the brain process the information. It is proposed that we do the same thing to ourselves, but it’s a richer experience because we have more sensory input.

          Are you familiar with the “missing hand” experiment? Researchers take a natural looking human arm and put it on a table in front of the subject in place of his/her own hand which is hidden behind a curtain. The researcher uses a brush to brush the subjects hidden hand, at the exact same time he/she brushes the fake hand. Suddenly the researcher pulls out a mallet and slams the fake hand hard! The subject will have made that fake hand part of him/herself, and will jerk back as though they were actually struck by the mallet.

          Consciousness emerges from our brains. There is no “TEI” to explain it, only wet squishy matter.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            In lucid dreaming a subject can get rid of their dream body and become just an awareness with out a body but still feel the sensations of wind and heat. Like wise you can experience 360 degree vision & having consciousness in two dream bodies.

            You can also commune with the awareness behind the dream ,so consciousness has many levels we are not really aware of but still exist.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hmm. I thought lucid dreaming was the ability to control and manage the course of your dream. What you seem to be describing sounds more like an OBE, but that’s neither here nor there. There is no evidence that any of these things happen outside of your brain.

            I talk to myself all the time. Isn’t that two separate awarenesses? Yet both are taking place entirely within my brain. Dreams would work the same way.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            This awareness behind the dream is something that you can converse with in your dreams, separate from dream characters or dream symbols. Some feel it’s your inner self, guide, spirit, soul or second awareness.

          • Patrick Gannon

            As I said above. If I can converse with myself when I’m awake, for sure my brain can invent characters or awarenesses, while I’m in a different mental state, such as sleeping. It’s no great difficulty for the brain to produce multiple awarenesses. Usually when we are fully conscious, the “fact-checker” part of our brain tamps down those various people in our heads. For those with brain issues, who cannot tamp them down, multiple personalities can become a real and debilitating mental disorder.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            This “Awareness behind the dream” is our subconscious or unconscious. You are talking to your unconscious. When you talk to yourself in normal waking consciousness you are not talking to your unconscious, but your conscious self.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well, not to get too technical, but if something is “unconscious” it is by definition, non-communicative. You cannot talk to your unconscious. That makes no sense.

            When you dream, you are barely conscious, and your brain can spin all sorts of yarns, including multiple consciousnesses, or awarenesses, or personalities, or whatever you want to call them. They are a manifestation of your brain. This can all be seen as brain activity in scans. No brain activity in the right place means – no conscious awareness, whether you are awake or dreaming.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Lucid dreaming is when you are awake in the dream and thus can speak to your unconscious, as you are in the dream unconscious state but you are also consciously awake.

            If it makes no sense to you fine. If you have an interest, you can research it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            But you aren’t unconscious. I know what lucid dreaming is, Marko. As you said, you are “awake” in the dream, like day dreaming. That means you aren’t unconscious. You aren’t speaking with your unconscious, you are managing the flow of your dream because you are just conscious enough to do so. Lucid dreaming isn’t a psi thing like OBEs.

            I think we’re having a semantics issue. The word “unconscious” doesn’t apply here, because if you’re unconscious, you aren’t communicating in any way. If you are in a semi-awake dream state, that is when lucid dreaming can take place. It’s a skill one can practice, with the goal of controlling the flow of a dream.

            This is nit-picking semantics. The important piece, is that it’s all generated by the brain. There is nothing other-worldly about it. If there is no functioning brain to generate it, then there is no lucid dreaming or any other self-aware consciousness.

            I know. You want there to be an outside force that affects the particles in your brain, firing the synapses that lead to the experiences that you have – but alas, there are no such forces, or we would know about them by now. “If you have an interest, you can research it.” I suggest “The Big Picture” by Sean Carroll as a good starting point.

          • Raphael

            About dreams and the unconscious…including the collective unconscious…are you discarding the work of Carl Jung as garbage? And on what authority or basis? (You have every right to your own opinion…I am just curious).

          • Patrick Gannon

            Am I discarding the work of Carl Jung as garbage? I honestly can’t say I know enough about his work to do that. My knowledge of psychology and neurology, etc. come from the present. Psychology is not my background. I became interested in neurology, as I learned more about physics. I have not studied Jung since I was in school many decades ago. I took a quick look at his theory, and it seems a bit “New Age” to me, which does not give me much confidence in it.

            First, I’m not sure that the word “unconscious” is being used in the same way, in my discussion with Marko. When one is unconscious, one is uncommunicative. Marko is talking about communication, but you can’t communicate with something that isn’t awake and aware. In some people who may seem unconscious – as in a coma – there may actually be self-aware consciousness, even though the patient is unable to communicate through normal physical methods. Neurologists ask such people to imagine themselves playing tennis, or some other activity for which they have already mapped the brain patterns of healthy people. When the patient displays those same brain patterns after being asked to imagine the activity requested, it means they hear and understand the request and they communicate back by thinking about what they’ve been asked to think about. Not a very robust way of communicating, but it confirms whether the patient is actually conscious or not. If you ask them to imagine playing tennis and the brain patterns don’t change – they are unconscious. You can safely pull the plug.

            In the case of the “collective unconscious” which I don’t think Marko was referring to (but now I’m not sure), this seems to use a definition of “unconscious” that refers to things we do without actively thinking about them – instincts, etc., as well as perhaps a bit of woo about soul connectedness. I’m not sure. What I’m reading is that his theory is problematic because it can’t be falsified. Are we all connected in some way? Yes, through our genome. That could explain these residual effects Jung refers to that run throughout people in society.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hey Marko, I’ve been studying more about the neurology of dreams, and the word “unconscious” is a little vague, and depends on how it’s used. In general, it’s simply the difference between being awake or asleep; hence the idea of communicating with one’s “unconscious” still doesn’t feel like the right terminology.

            However if we’re talking about what we experience while we’re unconscious, then I guess I can go along with your description. What the neurologists tell us is that our experiencing self (said experience taking place while we are unconscious), is not the same as the “remembering” self that is recounting the experience. One self is unconscious, the other is not; hence this idea or feeling that one was conversing with a different or deeper self.

            In any case, all of this experiencing and remembering can be displayed with brain scans, so we know it all comes from the brain. Sleep seems to play several roles. It may work with the lymphatic system to clean trash out of our system, including the brain. Many people thought it was a time to rest the brain, but that turns out not to be the case. The brain is active all the time. At night it goes through the day’s events and lays down long term memories. If you don’t get enough sleep, this doesn’t happen efficiently or accurately.

            It also appears to be a way to lay down memories of traumatic events without the attached emotional impact. When the brain is in a sleep state, the part that regulates emotion is idle, thus in remembering the event, a memory track is laid down without the emotion piece. People with PTSD seem to have brains in which this part remains active, so the memory is laid down with the associated emotion, and they can’t remember the event without it causing them distress. It turns out that the best thing you can do after a really traumatic event is to get a good night’s sleep.

            As the brain goes through this process, it has occasional periods when waves of synapses fire all over the brain, raising all sorts of discombobulated images and feelings and memories, and our dreams are the attempts of the brain to make sense of all this, as they flush out the crap and lay down useful memories.

            We can see the brain activity on scans, but thus far research is limited to waking people up at various points to see what they remember, so we have to come up with more and better techniques to more fully understand dreams.

            Lucid dreaming appears to be a special case – often a state that occurs right at that point when our bodies are still paralyzed as we come out of REM state, and we have just enough consciousness to direct our dreams as our brains begin to leave the sleep state. This capability is real, and can be improved with practice, as I understand it.

          • Raphael

            “I talk to myself all the time”

            When you “talk to yourself” Patrick, what part of you talks to what other part? (Or more exactly what part of your brain talks to what other part? Is your neocortex talking to your limbic system?…Or are the right and left hemispheres of your frontal lob having a chat over tea and crumpets?)

            Seriously, I am curious. I have never been able to figure that one out. How many selves do people have (me, myself and I)?

            Same thing when someone says “love yourself”…what part is the lover, what part is the beloved…and is the love mutual?

            I never talk to “myself”…and no, I am not pouting, I just can’t find 2 separate “parts” in me to have a conversation…but if I could split myself in two, what would be the point since it would be entirely made up, like theatre?

            And if you can imagine splitting yourself in two, why not 4 or 8? It might be hard to keep track at first, but then people could say “love your selves”.

          • Jethro

            one person, one brain. one process of thinking. We give nothing to ourselves, we enjoy what we have. It’s rather simple.
            People like to mystify things or make things more complicated, the more complicated something is, the more explanation is required, the more we need to explain something the more important it appears to be.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Most people, as I understand it, do talk to themselves. It is a way to help the brain process and organize information. It’s said to be a healthy thing in most cases. There is also a way for the brain to do this processing and organizing without it, but it takes practice. I’m fine with talking to myself, and there’s no mental health benefit that I know of, in stopping it, so I’m good with it. I can really cuss myself out when I go all the way upstairs, back down again, and forget what I went up for in the first place!

            How do you talk through problems in your head? How do you plan fo the future? I run things through my head – “well, I could do this, or I could do that, blah, blah, blah, ” and then I answer myself, and say “remember you can’t do N because you’re committed to X” or whatever. There’s a discussion going on in my head as I review options and plan for the future. How do you do that?

            The problem with having this other mind(s) in ourselves is that they can be hard to shut off. The brain wants to review and examine important or traumatic events, and it will put you on that hamster wheel, talking to yourself. Mindfulness training is how you get off the wheel, and shut down the voice(s). All of them.

            No the chat is not between various specific regions of the brain. The entire brain is involved in almost everything to some extent. It’s not so much the individual parts that matter, but it’s the sum of all the connections between them that seems to be what it’s all about. This is called the “connectome.” Certain parts of the brain do play important roles though – such as the fact-checker or rational part of the brain – the amygdala if I recall correctly. People in certain brain states can have visions that bypass the fact-checker and get laid down in the connectome as real events, and they often seem more real than reality itself – but we are gaining a good understanding of how this happens now.

            Advances in neuroscience are coming at us at a furious pace right now, as millions are being spent to understand the brain. It’s like the Young Earth Creation thing – all the evidence found supports evolution and debunks YEC. In the same way, all the evidence supports an emergent consciousness and debunks an imaginary force, energy, soul, god or essential essence, etc.

            Sure, we can have different voices in our heads, or the voice can be different in some way. Just as our personalities change with mood and emotion, why wouldn’t personalities in our heads do the same?

            I struggle with the concept of loving one’s self too. That may be because my definition of love is not universal. I adopted Robert Heinlein’s definition of love; “that condition in which the happiness of another is essential to your own.” Using this definition, it’s a bit tricky to apply it to one’s self. Besides, that “self” is a manifestation of the brain. It’s like saying, I love my brain, but heck – if I had to choose brains, I could have done worse, I suppose!

          • Raphael

            It’s okay to curse yourself, as long as you don’t hit yourself!

            The way I work out problems, I just think about them, in logical as well as intuitive ways…I just think, I don’t “talk” to myself. I am just one person thinking…hard to explain I guess. I never have an inner dialogue. I never did. Imagine thinking about a mathematical problem…wouldn’t you go into straight thinking, rather than having an inner talk about it, and wouldn’t that be quicker? These inner dialogues are probably something that starts in childhood, perhaps as a comforting habit (from feeling alone?), or as a way to internalize adults authorities and sort out their teachings?…I never started it. I think my extremely rebellious nature prevented my from internalizing any sort of authority or conditioning.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well, I’m not going to say I’ve never (lightly) slapped myself upside the head for some piece of idiocy, but generally speaking, a good cussing out is sufficient to chastise myself!

            When you read a novel, do you think of the words as coming from different characters? Do you personify the characters in your mind, or are they just words coming off a page? It seems like this would be somehow related to the idea of inner voices.

            Found an interesting article on nymag (not a publication I’m familiar with, so no idea how reliable), but the article, “the-perks-of-talking-to-yourself” was pretty interesting. It talks about this a bit, and suggests that we can learn to block the voice(s). Not sure I want to do that. My inner voice may be the only one that halfway understands me!

          • Sam

            “Seriously, I am curious. I have never been able to figure that one out. How many selves do people have (me, myself and I)?”

            How many selves are endless, because that is about moments. But what we are is thought. “I think, therefore I am”. Which is intelligence occurring from three factors coming together as one: input-processing-output. Often illustrated as a triangle, and the eye in the middle consciousness.

            “Same thing when someone says “love yourself”…what part is the lover, what part is the beloved?”

            I wouldn’t say different parts, but different moments, and it makes more sense.

            “I never talk to “myself”…I have only one self, and it’s not divided in 2 or more parts.”

            If you had a time machine, you could literally have a conversation with yourself. Hard to do in practice, thus far, but the theory is sound. Everyone has endless many selves, existing at the same time, and never dies. One for each unique moment.

          • Kristen

            Objectivity Professor Science…the missing hand experiment is completely discounted as humans will flinch from witnessing the pain or probable pain of others, as well as real or illusionary pain of ones self. It doesnt qualify as science as it doesnt isolate out just one factor with no possible variance of something completely different, it was flawed from the start. See if you can watch a shoulder disclocating on youtube without flinching and physically moving yourself.
            xx

          • Patrick Gannon

            Kristen, I think you completely missed the point. The experiment most certainly is NOT completely or even partially discounted, and the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that it is. I can find nothing to support your claim. What exactly are you proposing, is discounted? The rubber hand experiment works on most of the people it is performed on.

            The rubber hand experiment illustrates how the mind combines information from various senses in order to create a sense of body ownership. You just provided another example, thereby supporting the theory.

            When we listen to a piece of music being played by live musicians, our brain patterns begin to resemble those of the musicians, and if we are musicians, then more motor skill sections of the brain are activated, in order to feel even more like we are the one playing the music. This is all very well documented.

            The point is – our brains create all this. Otherwise, how would you explain it? Why do you think we flinch when we see someone hurt? What is your scientific explanation?

  • Jesse Lou Grey

    Awakened is such a difficult word for the unawakened human to accept.
    Shine the light, be the light and the world will become illuminated with peace. Those who choose not to embrace this concept will spend their whole lives convincing people that they are not living in the light of the almighty.

    • Sam

      “Shine the light, be the light and the world will become illuminated with peace.”

      That’s the goal, spot on. But oh boy, how hard sometimes. And only by me making that statement—about how hard it can be—I am guilty in not shining the full light. Which illustrates the dilemma, for the world, and why it isn’t a fast turnaround, but a process of slowly turning into a reality we can believe in.

  • Raphael

    Check out Naomi Klein new book: No Is Not Enough-Resisting Trump’s Shock Politics And Winning The World We Need.

    Love comes in all forms, including in the form of saying no to those who are raping the natural environment and all of humanity to forever increase their already bloated personal wealth, control and power.

    For example, actor James Cromwell (77 years old, it’s never too late to grow a spine), who went to jail for a week in July for peacefully protesting against a natural gas power plant in New York (the plant would promote natural gas fracking in neighboring states and contribute to climate change), is expressing love, for the planet, the future generations, and all life.

    In extreme circumstances such as we are beginning to experience worldwide, powerful-yet peaceful-measures must be taken by those among us who are awake, conscious and aware. When a majority of humanity finally awakens, it will finally realize that the criminal psychopaths or corrupt imbeciles (liars and thieves as Native people call them) who govern us might have the weapons and the repressive laws, but it has the numbers (paraphrasing The Doors).

    Anyone who stands for life against abuse and destruction expresses love in a powerful way, and yes, righteous anger is allowed when appropriate (and not leading to violent aggression, which is only legal for the state to engage in), as it is an integral part of this love and what gives it a pair.

    • Sam

      Aggression, aggression, aggression. No thank you :)