It can’t wait any longer
THE TIME HAS COME FOR US
TO MAKE A DECISION

The time has come to make a decision, because humanity as a collective is nearing the end of its ability to continue on as it has been. We are heading into a box canyon.

From the effects of global warming (Harvey is clearly one of them) to the threat of nuclear catastrophe (the standoff between North Korea and the rest of the world), from the global economic uncertainties created by Brexit and other spreading tribal nationalistic tendencies to the global migration crisis created by millions of refugees fleeing war-torn and terrorist-dominated countries, from the deadly fallout of religious fanaticism to the social fallout of racist fanaticism, it is clear that our species is headed in the wrong direction on virtually every front.

The problem is, we don’t know how to change course. That is, our leaders don’t.

That isn’t meant to be a Doomsday Warning, just a Word to The Wise. We have to change course here, and the fastest way we can do it is to change our understandings about Who We Are. As a species, I mean.

That’s the decision we’re now being invited to make. Are we ready to change our mind about our identity, and make a firm and final decision about it?

I’m sure I don’t have to point out that countless lives would be saved if our species simply dropped all behaviors that arose from the notion that we are separate from each other. (And, for that matter, from that aspect of life in the universe that some of us call “God”.)

I often imagine how life would be on this planet if we all simply acted as if there is no separation between us—that it really is true that what I do for you, I do for me, and what I fail to do for you, I fail to do for me. The political, economic, and social ramifications of that single idea are staggering. With the on-the-ground implementation of such a thought, all of the systems we have created to produce a better life for everyone could actually work.

Finally.

Starvation could end. Oppression could end. Domination could end. Terrorism could end. Despoiling of the environment could end. Abject poverty could end. Worldwide self-inflicted human suffering could end.

Sadly, our dysfunctional behaviors can’t end now because they are based upon, and emerge from, a tightly held Tribal Population Configuration and a Survival of The Fittest Mentality that only a belief in Separation as a fundamental condition and aspect of life could produce.

I have mentioned this (perhaps “harped on this” would be a better term) before. We have seen that, within the human experience, where the highest value is survival of the Whole rather than survival of its Parts (as seen most often in familial groupings, racial and religious groupings, political and economic groupings, etc.), a sudden transformation takes place. So we know behavioral shift — adaptations that pull us away from our self-destructive Separation pathology — is possible.

This adaptation can now spread to include everyone on Earth.

Not overnight. No. Not in a week or a month or a year. No. But sooner rather than later? Yes. In decades rather than centuries? Yes. Because a collective consciousness of what I refer to as “Oneness” can now develop and emerge rapidly among our species, the result of adaptation by non-genetic means. That is what Conversations with God-Book 4: Awaken the Species, the most recent entry in the 9-book CWG series (released just 20 weeks ago), is all about.

A simple change in our species-wide decision about Who We Are can rapidly override and render undesirable all of our previous unconscionable behaviors.

And this is not a matter of purely and only global consequence. Changing your mind about your oneness with each other (and yes, with God) can have immediate and remarkable implications in your own life.

Trust me.

More peace can be yours. More joy can be yours. Greater sufficiency can be yours. More love and companionship can be yours. And not just temporarily. Not just once in while. Not just now and then, but all through the rest of your life. And all from a simple shift in your thinking.

Not just the most recent entry, but the entire Conversations with God body of work — the 9 dialogue books and the 24 supplemental texts that comprise the CWG oeuvre — are intended to inspire and encourage humanity to move in this direction. In the end, they all boil down to a simple invitation. They challenge us to make a simple choice. That choice has to do with how we see ourselves in the Universe.

Proposition: You (and all of us) have two choices when it comes to how you think of yourself.

Choice #1: You could conceive of yourself as a chemical creature, a “logical biological incident.” That is, the logical outcome of a biological process engaged in by two older biological processes called your mother and your father.

Choice #2: You could conceive of yourself as a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what we call a “body.”

I’ve outlined the implications of these two choices previously here. I’m going to do so again in the days ahead. And I will not apologize for the repetition. The time has come for us to make a decision. And so I shall place the choices before us again.

Perhaps you’ve already made your decision about this. If you have, see if you agree with the implications of your choice that I’ll outline once again here.

Please Note: The mission of The Global Conversation website is to generate an ongoing sharing of thoughts, ideas, and opinions at this internet location in an interchange that we hope will produce an ongoing and expanding conversation ultimately generating wider benefit for our world. For this reason, links that draw people away from this site will be removed from our Comments Section, a process which may delay publication of your post. If you wish to include in your Comment the point of view of someone other than yourself, please feel free to report those views in full (and even reprint them) here.
Click here to acknowledge and remove this note:
  • Andres

    Hi Neale. It seems to me that one of the reasons why environmental concerns and poverty alleviation seem at odds, rendering global change ineffective, is because they actually ARE at odds. Separation theology at the heart of our cultural story separates humans from nature and “blames” them for any changes in the biosphere, which are presumed as negative and /or catastrophic. Separation theology also requires “justice”, that is another word for vengeance, against human action, which seeds more separation. I know pointing this out might seem politically incorrect, but unless we recognize human activity as an expression of nature, we will never tame the forces that are leading us precisely in the direction we are heading

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    Whether we believe we are a chemical creature, or “a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what we call a “body.” Or simply not sure (agnostic), we all desire peace, prosperity on earth for all life’s creatures. I think with extremely little exception we all agree on this regardless of our ontological views.

    We’ve talked about these issues for years and the uPrising and crisis management the world is now going through is the Storm before the Calm as Neale pointed out several years ago in that self same titled book. He called this period the “Overhaul of Humanity” as I recall. A lot of sh#t falls before the healing takes over.

    It’s also fascinating that the floods damaging Houston Texas have been attributed to the fact that the water has no where to go as it is one of the more paved cities around. You would think this would be a major concern to consider, but apparently not. This is in part, is an engineering problem.

    Again (as I’ve said in other postings) in a world where people have great self worth & good self esteem. You would simply not encounter near the problems we have with healthy, happy well adjusted people. We often tend to focus on the dysfunction rather than the cure/solution.

    Live in the solution not the problem.

    Let us not forget while we have tremendous problems in the world, we also have tremendous solutions as well. We simply need to focus on the solutions and what works & plays best for humanity & move toward that.

    • Patrick Gannon

      “We often tend to focus on the dysfunction rather than the cure/solution.”

      “Live in the solution not the problem.”

      Well said. Very little optimism in this forum!

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        On the cwghelping outreach site my handle is Dr. Positively Opti-Mysitc. 😉

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Marko, I like the way that Barbara Marx Hubbard puts it: the last day of an existential crisis is the first day of a new era. She calls what we’re going through now the “birthing pains” of a new humanity (she calls this “homo universalis” that she sees as our next stage of conscious evolution), where we’re all connected yet unique selves, playing our instruments in a harmonic symphony.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        I like her too, but I tire of all the sh*t going down with so much needless pain and suffering. It’s too slow for me, but once we get past and outgrow all this violence and injustice, things can speed uP quickly. :-)

        We are the people to be the models of the new generation (apologizes to Pepsi) and we are the leaders to show what the new conscious cultural creatives etc can be & do.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Barbara has recently mentioned that there is an obvious speeding up of the “birthing pains” of conscious evolution recently, mostly due to the Internet. She likens it to the brain, with new neural pathways being made with every new connection. She sees the beginning of conscious evolution at work already in the field of genetics, and expects it to spread to other areas.

          While they may not be coordinating, she says the number of Spiritual sites and membership at some sites has quickened, as well. She expects us to reach that “tipping point” to our next conscious evolutionary stage, which she sees as Oneness with everything, within the next couple of decades.

          Yeah, I wish we were moving more quickly to end the suffering and violence and injustice. But we can do what we can, in the meantime, including leading by example and shining our light as far as we possibly can.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

  • Raphael

    The “survival of the fittest” actually means, in practical terms, the survival of the most brutal and ruthless…in a survival contest between a psychopath and a gentle poet, the psychopath will win. This was not Darwin’s original message (concerning humans) but ideologues jumped on this phrase and used it in the late 19th century to validate, pseudo-scientifically, the total subjugation or actual eradication of so-called “inferior” and “senile” races (as in Tasmania, for example, as well as Africa, etc).

    Today, the same types of ideologues use this phrase to imply a pseudo-scientific legitimization of their execrable political dogmas, which basically state, as did Friedrich Nietzsche, that morality is a creation of the “weak” to undermine the “strong”, and that human conscience is the enemy of power (power for its own sake is good, conscience is bad). In other words “might makes right”…and the “weak” can basically die.

    Not too surprisingly, Hitler was a fan of Nietzsche.

    It seems that some among us humans relish confrontations and struggles, and would describe oneness, peace and cooperation as feminine, effete, uninteresting pursuits. I am not sure how anyone could change this…as some of these individuals cannot be reached by ideas. Perhaps they are to disappear naturally, as did dinosaurs!

    Interestingly, the Church of Satan, whose members includes many people in power positions according to their website, has the exact same survival of the fittest ideology (I know, such loonies are not to be taken seriously in any way, but I find the parallel rather interesting, although ultimately meaningless as “satan” is a human creation).

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      Raphael, I believe humanity eventually outgrows violence and injustice as something that just doesn’t work or create lasting joy.

      When and how that happens is still a current mystery. If we see ourselves as little children in comparison to the scope of a more ancient universe, that makes it more understandable.

      We start with ourselves and model for others, and at some point, the speed of delivery of such concepts grows & expands greatly.

      That probably doesn’t help in the mean time, except to give us some perspective.

      I continue to visualize the world I desire to live in, allowing that energy to come forth in whatever way & form it does. Let us use the LOA or Law of Attraction to create the world we desire, rather than defaulting to all the unconscious negativity as our main creating mechanism.

      • Patrick Gannon

        The LOA is not a “law” and it has been debunked repeatedly as some external force that interacts with us. However a focus on the positive, LOA or not, is certainly worth a shot. Few ascribe to it these days. All is pessimism, but while I disagree with you, Marko, regarding magical forces, I agree that your approach is more helpful, and less damaging to our brains.

        We’ve spoken of how memories are created and experienced in prior threads, and scientists tell us that anger works the same way. The more we are angry, the more we wire the brain to be angry, till it’s an automatic response. We have to figure out how to break those memory patterns, because anger just turns people away from each other. I understand that we can break these anger (and depression) cycles by being aware and practicing mindfulness.

        Social media is godawful right now, with post after post just dripping with anger, hostility and hate. It almost seems orchestrated. Who creates all these hateful memes? What is their agenda?

        • Raphael

          I wouldn’t be focusing so much on the negative aspects of social media Patrick, a little optimism and focusing on the positive can be a good thing.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          Well the LOA is to me a lot like medical science or meteorology, it’s hit miss on many factors, especially the weather. With the LOA there are innumerable things to consider with multiple level beliefs, conscious and unconscious thoughts, emotions and all the fluctuations and on & on & on. And self worth has a lot to do with it too.

          It’s an art and a science and one that people do not have much of a handle on in any deep way. But I keep plugging away at it.

          For social media, well, I post a lot of healing and positive things on my page, along with some minor political stuff & humor. No cat videos for the most part, I have a page for that, along with solutions page and one dealing with healing violence. Other wise there is this thing called scrolling and blocking things so we have choices. Including not watching tv etc.

          I watch very little news and tv is mostly a late night older show with humor before bed, nice to sleep on humor. The dominant news is the flooding in Texas. We create our own reality as individuals and co create with the larger collective.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, it’s not like medical science or meteorology because those are based on actual science with all sorts of research, testing, experiments, observations, and a boatload of compelling objective evidence to support them. The LOA has none of that. Instead, if you spend a little time looking, you can find researchers who have debunked the concept using the scientific method.

            In saying “It’s an art” you confirm that it is not a law. You are completely incorrect, I’m sorry to say, in asserting that the LOA is a science. You’re going to have to provide a source to show that science takes it seriously, conducts research and makes confirmed experimental predictions that provide useful information that can be acted upon, based on this nebulous “law.” The LOA is definitely NOT a science in any sense that I am aware of.

            Does that mean that we shouldn’t try to have a positive outlook? Of course not. We can modify our own behavior intentionally by being aware and mindful, but this is taking control of our own mind, not some magical force directing or influencing us. I find the idea of the LOA to be demeaning. The idea that if we are able to change our circumstances by managing our emotions and attention, that the credit belongs to some magical force? Screw that! People should be able to take credit for their own accomplishments without invoking magical, imaginary forces or beings. Until someone demonstrates the presence – or even the possibility – of this magical force existing, the LOA is a delusion.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Oh but I disagree for the reasons already given.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Your prerogative.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Off topic, but for whatever reason, I keep stumbling into articles about lucid dreaming…

        brainblogger Can You Improve Physical Skills While Dreaming?

        And another BigThink article Practicing Skills In Your Sleep Can Be as Effective as Physical Training

        It’s not something that comes from outside of us, but it is a very interesting phenomenon, and one that it looks like we can put to better use as we come to understand it more.

        No woo – just neurology.

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          I think lucid dreaming is one of the places where a lot of human potential can be unlocked and enhanced.

          For Pat Gannon on next blog:
          Google sungazers.

          As for Larkins, I got to interview here about 4/5 years ago. She comes & goes publicly. Who says one has to be credentialed to be legitimate? I get it’s a good thing to be, important in certain fields. But it’s not the end all to be all to be considered legitimate.

          Not sleeping is dangerous for sure for humans, but at some later date and in a highly advanced state of enlightenment, that may not be necessary.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Sungazers? Holy crap, how stupid could a person be? Look directly into the sun in order to gain nourishment? That’s where Darwin is going to come in, making it difficult for these idiotic, now blind, people to reproduce. The eyes have no way to turn photons into an energy source the body can use. There is no photosynthesis taking place in the eyes. This is one of the stupidest things I think I’ve ever heard, but I would encourage stupid people everywhere to take up the practice. The gene pool needs a good cleaning.

            One need not be credentialled to be legitimate, but to be legitimate, they have to have the ability to present compelling, objective evidence.

            I’m still waiting.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            If you look up sun gazing you will find you only look at certain times of the day & as a beginner for extremely short periods of the day. Dawn and sunset.

            No where is it advocated to look directly at the sun with 2 exceptions. But the sun gazers say for short periods of time during the 2 most beautiful times of the day. Would I personally recommend it? No, but that is the theory behind it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m very glad to hear that you are not stupid enough to do this, but is it a good idea to even suggest the concept? There are an awful lot of stupid people out there… but then again, Darwin needs to stay in business, and the gene pool could use some cleansing.

            I looked up a woo site, “Global Healing Center” and read more about this. There is one reference in the article that is purported to provide evidence, and it is not linked to anything. Typical woo journalism. Aside from that missing link, there is of course no evidence provided to support any of the claims.

            The article makes up a condition – calcification of the pineal gland, and then proposes sun gazing to cure it. I’m reading that calcification of the pineal gland occurs frequently in even young people without any clear negative clinical consequence.

            “… a Pub Med search for “pineal gland calcification sun staring” or sun gazing calcification” produces zero results. This means that there are no published, peer-reviewed papers (from journals indexed in Pub Med) even discussing this issue, let alone randomized control trials that show efficacy of such a “treatment”.”

            “If you believe that the only harm from staring into the sun comes from the UV rays, then think about how it would feel to stare into a strong light bulb (that does not produce UV radiation like the sun) for 40 minutes and see how that affects your vision. Perhaps the most absurd part of this protocol is that it encourages people to stare into the sun for long periods of time, even up to 44 minutes. This will have considerable harm to the eyes.” (Debunking denialism).

            “The only time that the Sun can be viewed safely with the naked eye is during a total eclipse, when the Moon completely covers the disk of the Sun. It is never safe to look at a partial or annular eclipse, or the partial phases of a total solar eclipse, without the proper equipment and techniques. Even when 99% of the Sun’s surface (the photosphere) is obscured during the partial phases of a solar eclipse, the remaining crescent Sun is still intense enough to cause a retinal burn, even though illumination levels are comparable to twilight.” (NASA)

            Don’t be an idiot, people. Don’t under any circumstances, stare at the sun. I think it’s unethical to even suggest such a thing, given how many people are stupid enough to try it. Show a weak-minded person that bit about sun gazing helping to lose weight and you’ll have blind fat people all over the place.

          • Kristen

            I tried it for a while to test the theory. I didnt notice any difference to anything after a month or so other than my eyes improved in sunlight, just as adaptation where I no longer needed to squint.
            K

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            What was your approach? I had a friend do it for a short while and he said he got energized and felt healthy. He had specific instructions he followed. Only a few seconds a day and build up a little at a time.

          • Kristen

            Hi,
            I read about a half dozen different articles on it and prepared by eyes by not wearing sunglasses for a month and using witchazel eye drops plus not reading in the evenings plus taking liquid vit c, iodine, parsley and sage and having spirulina smoothies with spinach. ‘Eye foods’. I have perfect eyesight as far as I know but would never screw with my eyes, brain or spine…I went as cautious as I could but there was too much positive info on it to not try!
            I did it at sunset, my deck overlooks the city and faces west so is perfect at sunset. Just a couple of seconds a day building up to a couple of minutes for a few weeks or a month.
            Im energised in Summer anyway and need less sleep so didnt notice other than not needing to squint in the sun since then. If you have a big crystal thats ungrounded or go into a new age shop thats the feeling afterwards, a bit u grounded like vertigo with slightly unfocussed eyes for an hour or so as it got dark. Maybe I was already healthy! Yeah right!
            Oh…I did notice the dark iris rims on my eyes widened a bit. Holistically that means dehydration but Im not sure, obviously its pigment based. But that outer rim did feel dry some days, a bit sandpapery and when I looked in a mirror after that sensation the rims had widened by 1mm over an hour. I think I asked i here if anyone had studied eye pigments…I have green eyes but blue outer rim and mustard inner.
            My ‘scientific’ conclusion from that was it definately widens and darkens eye rims that are blue, therefore your eyes have to be absorbing something for extra pigment melatonin and altering something to make it happen. This still happens sometimes especially my right eye on the bottom outer rim when Im tired, like now but will right itself if I drink fresh juice and breathe outside near trees for a while. Another thing I noticed was that for the past few years kids have insanely dark eye rims….why is this? I couldnt find one study on it but their has to be a link somewhere…Patrick can find a study!
            I read something that brown eyed people shouldnt do it..their eyes can get damaged in bright sun reflections like the snow.
            If you try it let me how you get on, and apologies this is long..best to give you my experience if you try it. People have been doing it for thousands of years.
            Take care,
            K

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Fascinating K, I had a friend who did this for about awhile as well, similar to you, a few seconds or so and than a little longer. His conclusion was he felt very healthy. Yet because he felt having blues eyes that he was more sensitive and that perhaps brown eyes (dominant eye color of the planet) would take it better. Just opposite of your consideration having brown eyes.

            It’s a fascinating concept, Lisette Larkins told me she did this as well and her personal conclusion was that it was another path, but that it wasn’t going to make you enlightened. I’d have to listen to my interview with her again to see if more was discussed on it.

            To me it’s a fascinating theory, one that others have done. My friends research was based on that it created great health and less need for food.

            I’m not interested in doing it myself, I value my eyes too much as an artist creative type. But it may be part of a future evolutionary step we take just as some of the advanced ET’s have done according to Larkins work. Thanks for your input.

          • Kristen

            Less food…..mmm, really interesting. Somewhere in here are discussions with Raphael about food, I barely eat, and drink when I remember, its a struggle to remember yet remain healthy and toned. Perhaps theres something in that.
            I think brown eyes are ‘made’ for all day sun, and blue for periods of much brighter sun from snow reflections but in short doses.
            Take care,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Consider the possibility that you damaged your eyes, reducing sensitivity, and perhaps leading to cataracts in the future. Hopefully this doesn’t happen, but if you are upgrading your glasses regularly as you get into your golden years, think back on this, as a close friend of mine with melanoma thinks back to the days in tanning booths.

          • Kristen

            No glasses yet not even reading glasses, at 47. Parents both had glasses at 40. We’ll see, and I was aware of risks but wanted to determine if something was true or not.

          • Craig

            Living in the African sun I has no site problems till the age 50 then everything started light sensitivity, no close vision or even vision beyond 350 metres. So now I stuck with enjoying a distant beautiful view but a disaster when close by… The I notice how dilapidated things have become.
            My wife took the pair of glassesglassesglassesglasses she bought for me back to the optometrist as after 30 years of marriage I could still not see things her way… (Old joke)

          • Kristen

            Damn….thats because the proper wedding vows have been distorted over time.
            They should be:
            Him: Everything I am, everything I will be and everything I have, I share with you.
            Her: Everything I am, everything I will be I share with you. But everything I have is mine, everything you just shared with me is mine and everything we will ever have is mine.

            Her: I promise to always be honest, always be truthful, always be open and let you into my very being. And those things I vow to you.
            Him: I promise to turn up where and when Im told, do as Im told, say as Im told including these vows, and never do or say one thing more. And those things I vow to you.

            Him: As per Genesis, I take you as my helper and companion and will be a good husband.
            Her: As per Genesis I will be your helper in telling you what to do, your companion in ensuring you keep me company whenever I say and will give you instructions on how be be a good husband.

            See how simple life would be if people got vows right?

          • Craig

            Too many words.
            What’s hers is hers, what’s mine is hers.

          • Kristen

            Yip, thatll do!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Actually Genesis says “helpmeet” whatever that is. Interesting marriage vows. If you want to see how it all began, this is probably the best description I’ve seen so far. Watch both of these. Google:

            mr deity and da man

            mr deity and the woman

            Enjoy.

          • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

            Over 5 decades, no glasses.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Knock on wood, I hope it stays that way. I used to surf extensively when I lived in Hawaii, and I’m sure that the bright sun reflecting off the water for all those hours, did not enhance my vision!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I started wearing glasses in the fourth grade. Genetics. Then they got worse with all the reading I did. And I was a lifeguard, so I know that all that sun reflected off the water made it even worse. I have blank spots—small ones—I’m told are because my eyes were “burned.” Then again, so was the rest of me—even the bottom of my feet once because I forgot my flips!

    • Patrick Gannon

      Since 63 AD, in large portions of the world, genocide has been denounced as a solution for problems. The world now frowns on “killing whole people.” Slavery is abolished in most places, and accepted by most as immoral. Sexism has been challenged, providing women with the right to vote and own property – still a ways to go in Muslim countries. Racism – alive and well, but understood as an undesirable trait we need to work on. The discrimination against the disabled – where these people were once denied access to places of worship because their god deformed them, or they were punished for the sins of themselves or their fathers, has now turned to wheelchair ramps, special accommodations and laws against discrimination. We live at least twice as long as they did then; most of our children don’t die in childbirth any longer. Countless people have been pulled out of poverty. And beasts do not live in peace together. A great many animals die while being eaten alive.

      Yeah, we’re just as bad off as we were in 63 AD. We’ve made absolutely no progress at all. NO. I don’t buy it. Sometimes a little optimism can be a good thing. Good leadership relies on it.

      • Raphael

        “Genocide has been denounced as a solution for problems.”

        Is this why the US government killed one million people in Vietnam (which never attacked us)? Or up to one million in Iraq (which never attacked us)? Inquiring minds want to know.

        • Patrick Gannon

          The US never espoused a goal of genocide to the best of my knowledge. We weren’t trying to wipe out the Vietnamese people. Heck, we were fighting (wrongly or not) on the side of half of those people. Same thing in Iraq. Your numbers appear to be rather inflated as most sources say up to 1/2 million out of 33 million. I’m not condoning that. I was in favor of the first Iraq war, but not the second.

          In 1948, the UN passed: No. 1021. CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE. ADOPTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE
          UNITED NATIONS ON 9 DECEMBER 1948.

          Surely you would agree that no such agreements were in place in 63 AD. We have made progress as a species.

          I don’t care what you do with the flag. I think pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is ludicrous. Any pledge should be to the Constitution of the US. However the language you used illustrated contempt with clear intent to personally insult me. You like to portray yourself as spiritual, but you’re apparently no better than others here who resort to personal insults – most unspiritual behavior.

          As best I can tell, and assuming you were formerly Mewabe, this appears to be new behavior for you from my perspective, so I ask once again – is everything OK? Is something going on in your life that is changing your personality, because it sure seems to be changing to me.

          I don’t recall that I recently said “we ought to be proud of our military.” I said I was proud of my son for being willing to give his life so that you could have the freedom to criticize him, however I am proud of our military.

          • Raphael

            Patrick, I am truly chagrinned that you do not appreciate my sense of humor…judging by your comments throughout the years I thought you were quite familiar with insults and sarcasm!

          • Patrick Gannon

            It’s not about hurting feelings. I can reel off insults with the best of them, but I work hard to avoid them. Sarcasm is a useful tool, and I have no problem with it but resorting to personal insults is the same as waving a flag of surrender. It means you have no other tools to work with, which means the discussion is of no further value.

            I will grant your point about genocide of native peoples – but this was quite some time ago, and is not the policy of the USG as you know very well. Those policies were driven as much by religion as anything else. Christians believed that they had dominion over the earth and the natives were seen as less than human. You’re blaming the government for something that religion owns most of the blame for.

            I will surely invoke the almighty power of brain chemicals, (noradrenaline (norepinephrine), serotonin, and dopamine), and I will be fine. I am fine. I’m actually having a pretty good time.

          • Raphael

            Could you be honest for a moment? Aren’t you the one who started getting personal and insulting when responding to my criticism of government, corporations etc by saying that I was hateful? This was clearly an admission of defeat on your part, if you want to put it this way, as well as a projection.

            It’s alright Patrick, I have absolutely no interest in debating you, as I clearly see that you will use any and all means at your disposal to prove yourself right, from your own perspective and in your own mind. The problem is that I have much better things to do than spending time in fruitless and petty arguments. Have at it but don’t expect me to respond in the future. H

            However, try to refrain yourself from being so condescending and insulting to other people, such as Annie, because it does make you look ugly.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I thought your language was hateful – actually we started with angry. I’m sorry I mentioned it, but I didn’t intend it as an insult. Upon reflection, I can see how you might take it that way, so I apologize for asking. I doubt you believe me, but I was (and am) concerned about you, as it seemed to me that you were different from normal.

            But to say that you have no interest in wasting time on me, after penning that long diatribe and posting it, well… come on… I guess you had nothing better to do.

            Annie can take care of herself, unless you’re suggesting otherwise? I try to give what I get. Have you ever seen my mug? I am ugly!

          • Raphael

            Glad to see you are switching back to humor. Humor is the best cure, and laughing at ourselves is a necessity in a world where people take themselves too seriously.

            I can relate to humor.

          • Kristen

            Boy this is a nasty thread!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I feel bad for Neale, he is trying to save the world and here we are on his blog, half a dozen people who can’t get along! I would say that it has to be depressing…

          • Kristen

            Exactly re that fine line. We are all human but all male or female as well, those are the lines that need to be drawn, in society as a whole. And guys being mean to girls crosses that line, discussions are one thing, dominating and being an ass crosses the line.
            Im with you and think feminists have done the human race a disservice in the past ten years, crossing that line. We are all screwed when males lose protective male instincts and females lose the feminity that brings them out, its a partnership!
            I honestly dont think Neale reads much in here. Its all now just too serious and boring, two people exhaust me, trying to explain the same things over and over again is exhausting…..especially when the end results will only be that people wrongly think they make me question my beliefs, need the last say or that I must think theyre right when I dont bother arguing their comments…..its like pulling a cord on talking dolls and the same things are said over and over!
            I just had my say in the last one then left. Jethro asked me to do a post in an earlier thread, and we discussed how it was all personal so needed to be a respectful post with everyone comfortable to explain their personal understandings and experience. We were on the same page as Neale…he knew that as well, but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surprise surprise.
            Cyber suicide…please just shoot me now!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            I agree about male/female partnerships…the problem I think is that many people today confuse equality with sameness, they seem to have difficulty understanding that gender differences do not mean inequality…we don’t have to be carbon copies of each other to be equal, as we are complementary, and women do not need to act manly to be equal to men, or men to act womanly to be equal to women.

            So much confusion out there…it’s getting to be ridiculously funny!

            I agree about the exhausting nature of these non-dialogues, of these extremely competitive verbal combats. I am loosing interest as well. And I think I already said (or professor Mewabe said) everything I wanted to say, a hundred times over…and still, the world hasn’t changed, can you believe it?…Nobody takes me seriously, I can’t get no respect ha ha!
            I know what you mean about two individuals trying to make you question or renounce your beliefs. I really don’t understand the motivation, but it does get very tiresome.

            On another note, I read your comment about staring at the sun and taking parsley and sage…we must be the only two people in the entire world who understand the benefits of eating parsley (which has more vitamin C than oranges, more vitamin A than carrots)!…sage, rosemary, thyme and savory, these are all good herbs! I blend the parley with carrot or tomato juice, lemon juice, half an avocado and make it into a refreshing nutritious drink (we are all health nuts in California).

            Rosemary, sage and thyme grow like crazy where I live, it’s a Mediterranean climate!

          • Kristen

            I know…no one listens! Do they think they get a say in anything? Haha.

            “We must be the only two people in the entire world”….haha, well, you claimed to own the planet, generous of you to allow me to live here!
            Im too lazy for real food so just munch on herbs and chuck random stuff in a gizmo machiney thing to drink. I love parsley, chives and basil.
            Although raw potato skins (anti cancer), half a whole garlic and cucumber is probably one of the worst medicine potions to go down the hatch! Although has to be better than tomato juice…..that red puke all over you was me! Red capsicum goes well with boysenberries oddly. I eat capsicum like apples.
            Things are hard to keep alive here, dry summers and constant rain now for 3 months with 90% humidity most the time now, so I need to replace all my herbs.

          • Raphael

            I didn’t get the planetary rent check yet…did you send it?

            Tomato juice isn’t my favorite either. Parley, lemon and garlic are powerful anti cancer…I sometimes add garlic to the parley blend (parley also helps neutralize the garlic fumes).

            I think I will pass on the potato skins, cucumber and garlic…I am very adventurous, but I don’t think would be covered by insurance.

            I am the same about food, it’s easier to blend stuff…different creations, some not so successful taste wise (when it starts looking like puke, it probably tastes like puke)! The kitchen is a laboratory…and I am the mad scientist.

            The climate is the same where I live….totally dry summers (not a drop of rain) and then non stop rain in the winter…and the soil is hard clay and rocks! But rosemary and sage thrive…along with giant weeds, oleanders bushes from Greece, grapevines, and oaks, chaparral and manzanitas. Nothing else can take the harsh weather and poor soil.

          • Kristen

            You know the potion is a good one when it comes back up so fast you puke out your nose as well, cold puke is one hell of an experience.

          • Raphael

            Nothing worse than nose puke…except when it comes out of your ears as well. Then that’s really tragic, and a sure sign that there is something that isn’t kosher about the recipe…perhaps a bit too much gun powder!

          • Kristen

            Damn, gotta watch that gun powder, keep it to a tablespoon and never with gingerale.
            I quite like ear puke…almost a fetish actually. I find radiator coolant, coke, mercury and meths work best, saves trimming my ear hairs as well.
            Or is that an immunisation recipe against the next virus I release on a plane…sometimes it all gets confusing in my lab! Oops, kitchen.
            Later

          • Raphael

            I had to quit last night…and go to sleep. I am back for about a half hour. I am taking some time off from work and doing a bit of landscaping outside…planting a ton of bushes and ground cover, and installing the irrigation system. Tough in 109 degree weather!

            Heard an ugly fight from neighbors up the hill, with noise and yelling, screaming and crying. I was going to call the police as the woman sounded like she was very upset, yet they calmed down quickly. I hate this kind of thing…the guy sounds like a total butt orifice (I have to remain polite here).

            Here is another recipe (serious): rice milk (or any kind of milk, from cows or nuts), sprouted rice protein powder (vanilla or any flavor), almond butter (or any nut butter), frozen strawberries and blueberries (or any frozen berries), one banana, one kiwi. Blend, enjoy in hot weather!

            Of course you could add lysol and engine coolant, for a kick…goes without saying.

          • Craig

            Raphael will this cleanse veins from cholestrol?

          • Kristen

            Hi Craig…you scull petrol for that!
            Seriously though if you switch to a liquid only diet, including blending dinner up into a soup your body absorbs the good stuff and gets rid of the crap much faster, a good semi detox and really good for your blood.
            K

          • Craig

            A souping I must go.

            No more biltong, BBQ and French fries… That’s a tough decision…

            Thank you I’ll give it a try, and leave the white wine.

          • Kristen

            Good luck!
            The US army did studies on it and consistantly found that the group that had their dinner pureed into a soup or even mushed up like baby food had more energy and stayed full for much longer. At first it makes you poop a lot, so you should add corn husk powder, sweet corn or some fibre to it, your body produces less stomach acid as your food is already mush so speeds up the process so food is generally in and out in about 18 hours so all the old ‘crap’ gets sped up as well.
            Once you get used to it then your body feels thirst rather than hunger, just whats in your brain memory for nutrients it needs at the time so you eventually lose a hunger appetite, after a few weeks, things like fries are sort of gone from your memory. Then after a few months your brain literally “tells” you what it needs, for me by colour, often craving a smoothie with berries as theyre the ultimate cure all, or green if it needs something in a green drink. Last night I craved raw mushrooms…must be low on vit a or something.
            White wine…yip good move! Hope its not cancer causing chardonnay. Switch to a light red or rose, or organic cider.
            Dont deprive yourself of something you enjoy at first, anything can go in a blender, including bbq meat and fries, thats how it ends up in a couple of hours anyway…mush. After a while youll stop even caring what it is, the trick is to change the physiology first…your taste buds into submission, brain memory for whats stored in there and stomach to work faster but not as hard.
            “The lazy mans diet”!
            K

          • Craig

            Thank you Kristen
            Will adapt while life is still okay.
            May lose some of my 120kgs as well.
            So my wife may lose half the man she got used to through the years. And just the other days I told her how lucky she was as she now has twice the man she married…

          • Kristen

            Shes surely blessed!
            Yip 120kg…..not good, think of the $$$$$ your taste buds are enjoying!
            If you’re serious about trying, I would suggest you get some chlorella tablets, theyre a part of a detox to flush the old ‘crap’ out, at 120kg you are actually likely to have bits of ‘crap’ from a year ago stuck to walls of your internals, that block absorbtion of nutrients, creating a cycle of hunger as your body craves goodness. Chlorella is just a plant product, high in vit d and chlorophyll but has cracked wall cells so allows fast digestion, and neutralises acidic levels. Dieticians make a bomb from crock…if you really want to know the state your body is in just pee on a spa PH tester and do one under your tongue, then Dr Google will tell you how to get it back balanced with food, I think high cholestrol makes it a bit acidic, lowered with a swig of apple cider vinegar and alkalines like venison. In the 70s people used to be able to tell if people were terminally ill with a simple PH test and it was one of the huge changes they found in kids with CF…life saving and long forgotten.
            Im anti meds…so pro anything easy.
            Take care,
            K

          • Craig

            Thank you will adapt diet.

          • Kristen

            Ill give it a try.
            My favourite…..chocolate powder, ice, milk, choc icecream. Oops…thats a frappe, but so much nicer than things good for me!

          • Kristen

            How’d the gardening go?
            Im dreaming of 109 degrees. Saw the sun today, I nearly died of fright. Nice of you to actually share it.
            Cannibalism…here NZers are Kiwis, we call them Kiwifruit! Do you get the golden ones without furry skin? I love them.
            Soooooo glad I found this recipe swapping site.
            I use coconut oil a lot, seperates fast though. Having mixed berries, coconut oil, banana, psyllium husk powder, apple and OJ now. Dinner was just sliced raw mushrooms, yum.

          • Raphael

            The landscaping is moving forward…planting 27 creeping rosemary on a slope as ground cover…to avoid having to deal with 7 ft tall weeds!

            Yes this is a great recipes swapping site. Are you vegetarian? Re kiwis, I get the green fuzzy hairy ones…I followed a macrobiotic diet many years ago…trying the balance the yin/yang energies of food, Japanese style…it’s actually instinctive, people do it naturally. I still use some Japanese ingredients in soups (in the winter)…soy sauce, miso, some seaweeds, etc

            I would also suggest using this site to sell used items, or barter. Would you like an old couch (or do you call them sofas?) I will take an old mule for it, or a goat…or goat cheese but that’s my last offer.

            The sun here is obscured by smoke from huge fires raging in Montana…Can’t see the volcano across the lake, or the lake…the air is bad and it is recommended that we don’t do physical activities outdoor…which is, of course, just when I had planned to take time off to do landscaping and other things outside.

            California is becoming very predicable…mud slides in the winter from too much rain, fires all summer from too much drought. Thousands of acres of pine forests are dead all across the west-from drought and invading beetles moving north-and waiting to explode in uncontrollable fires…climate change? What climate change?

          • Kristen

            No not vegetarian, I have to cook dinner for three hungry young people everynight, two of them builders so need meat in meals. I just eat whatever, rarely dinner though. Thank goodness animals in NZ graze freely, meat elsewhere is vile and bland, especially Australia where they arent eating much grass. Our butter is quite strong and very yellow as well.
            Try the yellow kiwifruit if you can get them, theyre more popular here and less acidic and dont need peeling.
            Do you take raw apple cider vinegar? I have a nightly swig from the bottle! Apparently its the new in thing! Strong anti oxidants.
            Good idea about the rosemary, shes hardy woman after a couple of years and smells good. Probably your ideal woman…shove her outside in the droughts and mudslides!
            Dont need another couch thanks, I have 4 that need replacing when kids leave home, or if! But do you need a whole lot of mens med clothes, including redneck shirts and 2 new jeans? The boys changed rooms and had a clean out, a mountain! The 7 op shops around her are all overfull and the Salvos dont want stuff either. Trade ya for some healthy Californian food that I dont have to cook! Including that infamous moldy fried bread!!! Sells well on the black market as natural antibiotics, heck, that stuff kills everything in sight.
            I see all the fires online, its crazy that 10 years ago things were rare enough to make it on tne news, now its something daily somewhere. We often send rural firefighters to give a hand. We’re lucky, ours are easier to control being islands, faster access to get seawater to dump on, scary stuff though.
            Sinkholes are the things that freak me out. Who thought building on reclaimed land and taking all tne water and gasses from the plant would be dumb idea? Whens Singapore going to ‘fall off”?. We just had a big sinkhole near a big mining venture that people have protested against for years…just a fluke Im sure.
            Our weather is getting worse too, bugs and beetles…yip, nuts, as are flies now. Weve had no frosts all winter to kill the larvae, mozzies will be a biarch soon, we cant go outside after about 7pm in Summer, they eat you alive, snails are bad at the mo too. With all our floods rats have appeared, saw one in my yard the other night and a couple near work. Weve never had them at all before, evil things, I hate rodents. Our storm water systems are all open around here that go out to estuarys so I guess theyre great rat tracks! What is normally 10cm deep water in open drains through parks and things often become 2 metre deep rivers, its a wonder a kid hasnt drowned as they end up on the path walkways. Google Earth Millhouse Reserve Howick, thats sort of near the middle of my suburb a few minutes away, youll see a bridge on Botany road that the water gets up to.
            As you said…what climate change?

          • Kristen

            Hi,
            Re your last paragraph, I think what you’ve never quite realised is that Annie is a girl, and its natural human behaviour for a male to see a female being bullied and step in, which people in here do.
            Im not a feminist by any means….your statement of Annie taking care of herself shocks me….since when is it acceptable for any males to deny that females are kinder and nore defensive by nature, and to actively treat females like another male, in a stupid game no different to my penis is bigger than yours? Or my science is bigger than your God?
            Treat females nicer. Im sure if most males saw you physically talking to Annie or any other females how you do, you’d be flat on the ground!
            Do you treat your girlfriend, sisters and other females the same as you would a guy, and expect them to have the same interests in the masculine sciences that you do? Surely you are aware of gender differences?
            Just explaining why people like Raphael and Jethro, with mancards, step in when you push Annies boundries, its male instincts. Surely you have them?
            Not a personal ‘attack’….an explanation!
            K

          • Craig

            Come now…
            Is it not that Murphy of Murphy’s Law is a woman, I mean us men will try conquer a country but think up so many ways to get people back. We’re way to ignnorant to do that…

          • Kristen

            Well maybe that would resolve all the worlds problems, a simple measuring competition….isnt that the male dominance game?
            Sure fire way to make the so called rulers run and hide for good!

          • Craig

            Male ego…

          • Kristen

            Aka lack of confidence, self worth, self esteem so masked by ego in an attempt to get pride through others submitting to them!.
            Note that good looking taller guys generally dont have a need to dominant or play my penis is bigger than yours games!

          • Craig

            EGO would then be an acronym for edging goodness out (of life)…

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Note that good looking taller guys generally dont have a need to dominant or play my penis is bigger than yours games!”

            Funny. As a short, ugly guy it always seemed to me that this is exactly what they were doing much of the time.

          • Kristen

            While the short ugly guys try to keep up. Haha.
            And Im just antagonising btw….are you bald as well so have short ugly bald guy inferiority syndrome?? Thats a bad one to have!

          • Patrick Gannon

            I didn’t say anything about keeping up. While the big, good looking guys were comparing dicks, us small, smart, geeky guys took over.

            I won’t speak for other bald or balding guys, but I would be pleased if all my hair fell out so I didn’t have to shave or get haircuts.

          • Kristen

            Ahhhhhhh…..so now we know who to blame for all the worlds problems…short ugly guys!!!!!
            Be a rebel, be a 70s hippie with long hair and a beard.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Got the beard, but will take a pass on long hair. Too much work. I think I’m already a rebel on this site!

          • Raphael

            Good analysis…at times I wonder if some men are more obsessed or let’s say interested in getting other men to submit to them than they are in relating to women. Sounds kind of gay doesn’t it?

          • Patrick Gannon

            NO! I absolutely will NOT demean Annie by treating her as a lesser person because of her two X chromosomes. I try to treat women as equals. I will readily demean her beliefs and will not cut her any more slack than I would a male. It’s a matter of respect.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            If you look at actual pictures of the chromosomes, what’s referred to as a “Y” looks like an “X” with a missing leg. Maybe there was some kind of deformation involved… (Joking!)

            How do you know I have two X chromosomes? I could be an XXY, who chooses to identify as a female. (Just stretching out the absurdity of some binary stereotypes.)

          • Kristen

            OMG, point missed completely.
            She thinks as a female and speaks as a female, thats my point. You type 100% male thats at cross purposes when talking to females.
            Lesser person….Hshahahahahahahaha. Good joke.
            xx

  • Jethro

    Each of us are both a logical biological incident, and a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass. Spiritual being a product of our thoughts about it. We are experiencing a global consequence of improper definitions such as “what is success and happiness?” to mention a couple. I have recognized myself preparing for something without being sure of what. Could it be a humanity based programed fear of what may happen? Maybe. But I have also really enjoyed the education. My perception of life could be one of negativity as I don’t have many of the things I wanted as I dreamed as a young man, but if I had just spent a couple years in the middle east watching my fellow soldiers and friends die around me, I’d be feeling really good about where I’m setting this evening, safe for the moment, on my couch. I do feel good about it. So we could say that I do feel good, all from a simple shift in my thinking. Unfortunately there is no shift in thinking negatively about the women, children, and men, stuck in war torn areas of our world as I write this. I cannot change any of that directly, regardless of how angry and absurd my thoughts may become over the stupidity being expressed in our world today, or kind I may be to the next person I meet, but I hope that my anger for such useless acts of war catches on, and in the same I hope that my act of kindness is passed on and on. It will not do me any good to go insane trying to figure out a cure for that which is inevitable. When war is waged in an act of love, only then will hatred be defeated.

    As I travel through my community day after day and interact with them, I’ve began to feel a sense of pride (I just wish they would learn to drive!!), It’s when I turn on the television that I begin to feel ashamed to be human. ****As I wrote that, my wife got my attention to show me an article about the media, playing mind games… Go figure.

    • Patrick Gannon

      “Each of us are both a logical biological incident, and a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass. Spiritual being a product of our thoughts about it.”

      That’s one way to look at it. The word “spiritual” is so overused that it has little value. Equating spiritual with our thoughts seems like a valid idea though. Equating spiritual with some external force that inhabits our bodies is debunked superstition. Don’t you think we need to admit that in order to move on, so we can think clearly?

      I appreciate your view of life. I have felt all my life that something unequivocal would happen during my life. Who knows, we may be approaching the end – but we might as well enjoy it! This is all we get.

      Indeed, I don’t understand Neale’s concerns. Who cares? If we live forever, who cares? What motivation is there to fix things when we’re told that we’ll live forever with no punishment. If that’s the case, then why not end it all, and let us all get on to a better place?

      On the other hand, it is not “we” (our self-aware consciousness) that will live forever; it seems that this boon is reserved for our souls, given that they have their own agenda, which does not seem to include that which we know as “us” otherwise “we” would have memories of those previous lives and could verify with more than sufficient objective evidence that there is life after death.

      • Jethro

        Life after death, I have no idea, sounds like a wonderful idea if we can make the grade and not burn for eternity. I tend to agree with you about the memories carried on by either good acts or evil acts. we live on in memories and that is a fact for sure. It is desirable that we are “good” people so that memories are a source of pride for our descendants. The Chinese or Japanese have a similar belief and that we also live our lives to honor our ancestors, I like that one, no woo involved. The word spiritual and many other words related have been abused a great deal. When we look out across a green valley from a mountain top and see it’s beauty, we are not suddenly connected to anything any more or less than when we traveled through that valley to get to the mountaintop. No more or less than enjoying a painting or some form of art that leaves us feeling in awe. But we may think about the valley differently after seeing it from a different perspective. Quite honestly, it works that way with everyone of our experiences and why every experience repeated will be a little different. Spirituality is an internal product with nothing to do with our own… Ghost? A ghost is a memory usually described as a negative thought. A haunting is a negative memory that cannot seem to be forgotten or not thought about. The spiritual part of any of that is the emotional attachment. Spirituality is actually nothing more than emotional attachment to anything including and most dominantly, ideals.

        Our souls are the deepest parts of who we are. We cannot hide our souls or “who we really are”, that is the part that will be remembered after our passing. Our kindness toward others, our ability to love ourselves as well as our fellow humans or world or universe, will “save” our souls, or the memory of “who we really are”. If we act only in the ways of love, our minds won’t be contaminated by negativity, or wasted on concentrating on those negative acts, which would stop us from acting on love but keep us acting out either against ourselves or another. The Bibles New Testament has a man who dies for our sins, that we may be forgiven without sacrifices. The purpose for all that forgiveness is to eliminate guilt and or accusation as much as possible. It’s supposed to produce a message with a better outcome, not one that people use to judge themselves or each other. It’s supposed to create love, not hatred. Jesus fed many with little, healed the sick, then told the disciples to not look so amazed, they could do it too, and we can. Maybe not so miraculously, but we can do it. If all the magic or woo could be dropped from the definitions the real message may then be understood. If the world could pull the acceptance of each other from all of these spiritual books and quit concentrating on the woo which is there as an attention getter, it might work quite a bit better. I personally have had some weird experiences, but it has all been a product of my mind, it is the source of all things I perceive as real or not real.

        People who feel they have a strong spiritual connection with wild animals usually wind up dead or injured because there is no invisible force projecting their thoughts and feelings to the animal who feels hungry or threatened. It works the exact same way with humans. Experiences build trust and friendships, not thoughts and feelings about it.

        Rainy day created a day off, just chillin and thinkin. Got a little random here and there.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Your words flow very nicely, Jethro. Given my interest in religion, I have to comment on the idea that Jesus was a man who died for our sins (whatever that is), that we may be forgiven without sacrifices.

          I think the sacrifice concept is unethical and immoral. If you go next door and beat up Henry’s wife, is it moral and just for your neighbor, Tom, across the street, to take your punishment in your place? Or better yet, is it moral for your son, Tim, to take your punishment? How does that create justice? How should Henry and his wife feel about that? Should they feel like they got justice if Tom or Tim was punished for your “sin” while you get away scott free? Does this idea make any sense at all? I always assumed it did, until I thought it all the way through. It’s a terrible idea. We have to be responsible for our own sins, crimes, actions, whatever…

          Of course the whole idea of an all-powerful being needing a blood sacrifice from his child, is about as abhorrent as you can get – but don’t tell Abe and Isaac that.

          Sidebar stuff floating through my mind… What concerns me about the discord in America, is that we demand child sacrifices, just like our god. Every 20 years or so, we sacrifice a bunch of our kids to appease the god. We aren’t at war like that now, and we’re overdue, so perhaps we’re getting antsy and looking to perform the child sacrifice, right here in America, if necessary. What we can see, though, is that the proponents of all this violence are System1 thinking people running on base evolutionary instincts and bypassing their most valuable asset – System2 thinking.

          Europe seems to have largely gotten it out of their system – perhaps they got tired of killing each other over imaginary gods, or maybe they’ve gotten better at System2 thinking – but it’s still in our social DNA. We’ve been conditioned for thousands of years to perform this child sacrifice, in honor of our god and the example he set for us. The hostility and mounting hate and anger in our society may be reflecting our concern that the child sacrifice is overdue. Which is why I agree with Marko, that we need to try and tone it down, and perhaps help people to see how angry they are.

          It may also be worth taking some time to ponder whether we’re perhaps being “played” or manipulated, to act out our basest instincts. I think it’s even possible that this is all part of an intentional attack on our way of life by someone. That’s pretty paranoid and conspiratorial for me, as I have no evidence to support this – but when I look at all the memes being generated for the sole purpose of sowing discord… what’s going on? Is it spontaneous, or is it orchestrated? It looks orchestrated to me. First they trained people to do what they were told in memes… “I know that only 10% of my friends will repost this.. blah, blah, blah.” I NEVER repost a meme that tries to shame me into doing so, but lots of people don’t turn on System2, and they were programmed. Now (perhaps), the next step is being played out….

          One of my dad’s favorite slogans…. “Hey just because I’m paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me!”

          I admit to being frustrated with religion and woo. Admitting it means I can take some effort to control it. I’m not very good at that on Catholic forums (LOL), but I try to restrain my comments to include a minimum of snark and sarcasm. I know I’m not always very good at that, but woo and religion are such easy targets, that it’s hard to resist. They have an empty armory!

          • Jethro

            Concerning Jesus dying for sins… at the time we could, and it was suggested proper, that we sacrifice something of importance, including a human that (I hate saying it) we owned, like a child or slave, to please God and remove guilt. There’s no difference in beating up Timmy or Tom for my sins, Whether Jesus actually died on the cross or not, the message was that we could alleviate guilt without taking a life, it was a major move towards ending sacrifice. It was viewed as an wide spread and improper practice at the time if it did in fact produce the act or the story of Jesus dying on the cross. Now we have therapists. I agree that it’s a ridiculous thing to hurt someone else for personal salvation, and as I mentioned they must have seen the mistake then as well. Today we sue people when we look foolish instead of holding ourselves accountable for things that went wrong. I wonder who will have to be crucified to stop the ridiculous court cases.
            I quite honestly don’t find your thoughts about whether we’re perhaps being “played” or manipulated as being ridiculous. I’ve been thinking very hard about our public media and their kind of information being sent out. I’ve complained about it for years. Then Vickie shows me two different news articles from the same media source on the same day with the same cover story concerning Trump and one said, “Trump soften his tone” while the other says, “Trump talks tough on wall”. The wall street journal sent these to different locations. Yeah, it’s not hard to believe something is going on. Black lives matter gatherings just came to a complete stop all at once or the news quit reporting it. I’m sure little ol’ plumber me isn’t the only one who understands that everything that happens is dependent on someone’s, or some groups thoughts. Control the thoughts, you control everything. I’m pretty sure there are a lot of preachers out there who know that, It’s why they’re televised. Give your money to god! Here’s my address…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Child sacrifice was early in Jewish history. That wasn’t going on in Jesus’ day to the best of my knowledge. They were sacrificing animals, of course, but not children.

            Jesus’ sacrifice was supposed to provide a path to salvation for Adam’s original sin (though Yahweh was clearly the bad guy in that story!). Jews believed everyone good and bad alike went to Sheol, a place of permanent unconsciousness, i.e. dead. Jesus’ supposedly opened the gates of Sheol so that people had a path to heaven. Of course in so doing he also created a path to Hell that did not formerly exist. I fail to see how our situation improved. I never did understand the “good news” of Jesus, once I realized that there was no Hell before Jesus came.

            Thanks for your thoughts on social media. I have friends who post heavily from either liberal or conservative sides, and they keep posting nastier and nastier stuff and their personality is changing to make them meaner, more angry people.

          • Jethro

            Paying too much attention to anything not immediately around you and trying to find answers in it is a dangerous prospect. I have been fighting an anger problem for years created by my childhood/teenage years through my parents. Though I only began to recognize it in the last decade. I seen it flare up again when discovering the true condition of our planet. I started comparing those 70’s nature shows to todays. Man it’s rough out there! Funny thing is, it might be normal and the good stuff is going unmentioned. Anyway, nothing I can do but what I decide is best. I’ll let the healthy anger drive me to talk about it with other people rather than letting unhealthy anger drive me insane wondering what to do or who’s at fault.
            I’m not very educated in-depth about Jewish customs or in-depth Bible understandings for that matter. I can only give thoughts on what I was told when in the church which I was lucky enough to be rid of when I was 14 or so. Of course It doesn’t sound like much has changed when I land on a preacher channel. That amount of time has allowed me to develop what is better to me, a different Idea of what I was told. Get rid of all the “in the sky” stuff and the lessons are easier to translate into real world information. If the purpose of Jesus’ death was forgiveness, then forgiveness must be very important to the author. I have found the benefits of forgiving others and forgiving myself and must admit. I see it can be a life and death experience, so very important indeed. A person may need to be alive fore some time to see that, so our elders, which is us I hate to say, should be teaching that. Now, rising from the dead? We don’t get to do that so I don’t see the importance yet.
            You seem less angry, must have made you look at yourself. It was seeing people with my views that made me recognize myself.
            Thank you for the compliments.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I’m a bit confused. It’s my understanding that Jesus represented the “Paschal Lamb”—the sacrificial lamb for the Judaic tradition of Atonement—thus no longer requiring any more animal sacrifices in the name of YHWH. One could either go through the process of Judaic Atonement or, if one became a Christian, be “at one” with God and atone with others regularly (or, if Catholic, in confession), without animal sacrifices.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Eliminating animal sacrifices is certainly part of it. The Catholic Church, however, which invented all this, has always taught that Jesus’ sacrifice was to overcome original sin so that we might have a pathway to heaven. Prior to Jesus, everyone went to Sheol. Nobody went to heaven, supposedly because of Adam’s original sin (debunked by evolution and DNA evidence).

            The prayer goes…

            “… suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into Hell (Sheol); on the third day he rose again from the dead…. ”

            This is called the “harrowing of Hell.” “The word “harrow” comes from the Old English hergian meaning to harry or despoil and is seen in the homilies of Aelfric, c. 1000.[7] The term Harrowing of Hell refers not merely to the idea that Christ descended into Hell, as in the Creed, but to the rich tradition that developed later, asserting that he triumphed over inferos (the underworld), releasing Hell’s captives, particularly Adam and Eve, and the righteous men and women of the Old Testament period.” Wikipedia.

            Basically before Jesus, nobody went to heaven because of Adam’s mythical sin. Jesus opened those doors according to the Church.

            That definition of atonement, as being at ONE, isn’t really Christian. Christians believe, as Neale has said, that they are here and Yahweh-Jesus is somewhere over there. We are separate from God. This aspect of Christianity is part of what Neale denies. Unfortunately there is no ONEness in the sense that we are all interconnected by some imaginary, invisible force energy, essential essence, etc.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Wow. I just had a Catholic flashback when I read the Creed! Sitting in a church, mumbling prayers and responsorials (some in Latin!) of which I had no understanding. I was so young when I quit the church at 13 that I don’t do that often anymore. I could even smell the incense. 😮

            I don’t remember the “harrowing of Hell,” but there’s probably a lot I didn’t pay attention to growing up, and I don’t remember reading about it, but I focused on scriptures in my investigating religion. I doubt I would have looked into it or it’s interpretation. Thank you for the information.

            I’m sorry—I’m used to the wordplay and didn’t mean to imply that Christianity isn’t a separation theology. I misspoke.

            I do like that you refer to original sin and Adam’s rather than Eve’s. Women have been beaten up with Eve’s sin for at least as long as since Catholicism became dogmatic.

          • Patrick Gannon

            You should have seen me when a girlfriend a few years ago convinced me to go to Catholic Church for Easter. Talk about a rush of emotions and memories. Ugh. At least the place didn’t burst into flames.

            I’m chuckling here, remembering when we got to the Nicene Creed in the mass, and as the priest went through the “We believe in…” blah blah, item after item, I’m whispering, “no I don’t; no I don’t” My girlfriend was not amused, but then she wasn’t very amusing anyway, and we eventually parted ways after I learned that even her family considered her to be a pain the posterior.

            Speaking of Catholicism, I remember a video Neale did, when he talks about the first McDonald’s opening and how all the kids went down to buy a hamburger, but then he remembered it was Friday and he spit it out in fear of committing a mortal sin. (Remember meatless Fridays?) It was really funny. Treat yourself. Look for youtube “Catholic religion & spiritual dogma (by Neale Donald Walsch)”

            He was really good in that video. I wish he had stuck with debunking the Abrahamic god instead of inventing his own. There’s a line where he (speaking about a priest) says, “Oh my God, this guy really believes this.” Neale has the same evidence as that priest had for his god. I am just as incredulous of his god as Neale is of the Catholic god, and if he can disparage other religions, his god can be disparaged as well.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yeah, I can’t go into a Catholic church anymore without getting the willies or feeling hypocritical. There’s so much to find that’s unacceptable. One year our County Supervisor wanted to have a big BBQ on his birthday that included all the employees along with his backers. Then he realized it fell on a Friday during Lent. He obtained, and posted copies everywhere, a special dispensation from the Archbishop for all at his party to eat meat. In my opinion, he could have easily changed the day or had a fish fry. It would certainly have saved him whatever donation it was “suggested” he make.

            I’ll have to check out the video. That’s not one I’ve seen.

          • Patrick Gannon

            At my dad’s funeral, we held his mass in the Cathedral Basilica in St. Augustine – a very old and elegant church. We’re huddled in the back waiting for things to start – as oldest son, I’m supposed to lead my mom down, and all that. One of the church ladies comes up and says, we need someone to bring the offering.

            I was incredulous. What do you mean, “offering?” You’re going to collect money at a funeral!? I had forgotten, in my many years of absence, that the “offering” is the chalice with the wine and crackers; so my son and I agree to walk these down at the appropriate time.

            Of course, I’ve completely forgotten any of these procedures, and after being prompted by the church lady, we walk down the aisle with the goodies and get to the end in front of the altar. The priest takes them, and waits a second, expectantly. My son and I stand there. He gives a little nod with his head, and I nod back, then he bows a little, and it occurs to me that he is reminding me that we are supposed to bow. My son had no clue. I spared him the agony of Catholicism or any other religion. No way this old agnostic is going to bow to either a priest or an imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky, so I turned and walked back to my seat.

            Amazingly, once again, I did not burst into flames!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Catholicism is one of my least favorite forms of Christianity. Baptism occurs before one can do no more than cry, gurgle, eat, urinate and poop—to keep their Souls from going to limbo for eternity. Prayers are taught to children who can’t yet understand their meaning. One must learn to confess one’s sins before first holy communion, which I had to take at age six. I went through confirmation at seven, officially becoming a member of a church when I didn’t understand what it promoted. Who possibly could at age seven?

            I committed the ultimate Catholic sin—I was re-baptized in another Christian church before becoming a member. It wasn’t required, but I wanted to, in a way “washing away” my old Catholic one. The pastor and I had many discussions beforehand—in fact, I sat in on the courses he held for the deacons. I was able to define what “confessing Jesus as my savior” meant to me, personally.

            I haven’t burst into flames yet, either.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Just so you know, the Church has pretty much abandoned the “Limbo” that they taught us about as kids. That was an invention of Augustine, who clearly saw the evil in an all-powerful god sending helpless innocents to Hell – but that’s what the catechism says. It was never official Church dogma. It says you go to Hell if you are not baptised. They have a document on hope – you’re allowed to hope the Catholic god isn’t a monster, but the catechism pretty much says otherwise.

            My parents sent me to a priest for lessons when I began challenging my faith. They sent me to a class for people who were looking to convert to Catholicism. After a couple classes, the priest asked my parents not to send me anymore! He didn’t like not being able to answer my questions in front of new converts!

            I continued to attend mass until the day I moved out of the house because I had no choice. You may remember when they began to say it was OK to go to church on Sat evening instead of Sun morning…. I would gather a couple of my siblings, drive to church – send the youngest in to grab a couple programs so we could prove we were there, and then we’d go to McDonalds. Yes, I was a terrible influence as a big brother!!!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I stopped attending mass at 13, which I only got away with because it was my mother who walked in on one of the parish priests molesting me. If she hadn’t witnessed it, she wouldn’t have believed anyone in her beloved church could do so. My own Granny disowned me and called me a heathen, though she later came around.

            My mother, who I disagreed with about religion, was a die-hard Catholic. I didn’t know it until I was an older teen, but my mother had already been disowned by her family because she filed for divorce, being forced to by my father. That lasted about a year until rumors of my father’s behaviors and news of the 9 month, 9+ pound “preemie” his second wife had worked their way up to the shared parish in Ohio that both sides of the family still attended.

            She continued to believe even after committing the mortal sin of abortion, knowing she was going to be a single mother of either eight or seven. (Our sick father told us kids in a letter about it.) Even then, she didn’t go through with it until she was certain she was going to have to work. (And they weren’t legal then.) On her deathbed, a long-time friend, who’d moved from priest to monsignor, tried to convince her for days that she wouldn’t burn in hell for eternity for it. He was only able to do so on her final day. This, then, allowed her to allow him to administer the last rites.

            As the sixth of seven, the only one I got to corrupt was my baby brother, which I did with relish at times. 😈

            Even without the personal experiences I had with Catholicism, I doubt I would have stayed in the church. There’s just so much obvious corruption and expectations of blind obedience for me.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            “sixth of seven..” HA! Try being the first of seven. You get blamed for everything the younger ones do because you “set the bad example.” Well praise be for the “bad example!” LOL

            Keep in mind that Neale’s roots are the same as ours. I think it explains his disdain for atheists and agnostics. You never completely get rid of that childhood indoctrination….

          • Spiritual_Annie

            That all depends on who the eldest is. In my family, the eldest is female. She practically raised me and my baby brother, poor thing. But that’s in part because #5 has cerebral palsy and he needed extra attention, so the eldest became Mama’s little helper at seven. #2 was male, and felt the responsibility of being the man of the house after my father left. He rebelled, though. Juvenile detention, Boy’s Town, being forced to choose between the army or jail—the whole enchilada.

            I took some of the classes I did in High School just because none of my elder siblings had, because I got tired of the comparisons. And I dropped math after Trig because if I’d taken Analytical Geometry and Calculus, I would have had to live up to the rep of all five who preceded me, all geniuses, with the same teacher. No way I wanted to hear, “So, how are Martha, Tom, Mary, John and Jim doing?” (Meanwhile, my baby brother was taking college Calculus at night while he was a Junior in High School.)

            Families are funny. I always thought that the psych books about the position of kids in birth order were bunk, because as soon as a wrench gets thrown in, it all falls apart.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          I like it when you get a little random. I can’t say I agree with everything you shared, but it’s always a good read when you let yourself go.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Well how boring would it be if we all agreed lol. Wouldn’t be much reason to talk if we all had the same views. I enjoy your writing as well.
            Thank you for letting me know you enjoyed it.
            Love and Blessings Always

  • Spiritual_Annie

    I made my decision about this years ago, even decades ago. I know that I am a Spiritual being, connected to all of Creation, currently inhabiting a physical body. Since making that decision, I do experience more peace, both with myself and almost all others, including those who have hurt me in the past. I do experience more joy, experienced internally and expressed externally, whether I have more sufficiency or not. I do have more unconditional love, for others and myself, again experienced internally and expressed externally, which has led to some of the greatest gifts of friendships in my life.

    For me, it is about the moment-to-moment remembering that I made this decision. On a typical day, I do remember my choice. It’s a challenge, however, to remember during those times when I’m attacked, though I do try to understand that comes from another hurting and expressing that hurt as anger or resentment or accusations towards me, even though it may have little to do with me. I may be the target, but I may not have anything to do with the cause except to act as a trigger. It’s also a challenge when my physical body reminds me acutely through high pain days that I’m not my body, but a Spiritual being housed in a temporary physical body, although even this is losing its hold on me.

    I’ve had to let go of other’s perceptions of me and my life. Some wouldn’t want the life I’ve lived, or the one I’m presently living, because they cannot see my Spirituality expressed due to their own preconceptions and biases. Those who take the time to know me understand that I’m joyful and loving and honest and open—but not many take the time to do so in our warp speed world.

    I’ve had to let go of my own perceptions and biases about others, as well. Some of the most Spiritual people I’ve met (though they may not call it that) are those that society considers outcasts—if they consider them at all. They are the homeless, those who have physical or mental well-being challenges, those who have been caught up in our judicial system (which has little to do with justice), those who are simply outside society’s norms.

    Making this decision has changed the path and purpose of my life, and I am grateful every day that I have done so.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

  • Patrick Gannon

    “clear that our species is headed in the wrong direction on virtually every front.”

    I thought in the CwG ontology there was no such thing as “right” and “wrong.” I think we are simply continuing to evolve, as we have for millions of years. Like other organisms, we over-consumed what is available in our environment, and adjustments will be required, and as with other species, they probably won’t all be pretty. It’s in our genetic makeup to divide ourselves into tribes. To get beyond that, we have to get beyond System1 thinking which is based on that evolutionary history. Using System2 thinking, however makes short work of woo. To address the tribalism that comes from System1 thinking, inevitably means acknowledging that woo is dead.

    Neale speaks of “collective consciousness” as Oneness, but what does he mean by that? He has always insisted that there is a force, energy, essential essence, or god thing outside of us that contains organized intelligence. That idea is thoroughly debunked, however “collective consciousness” can be a real thing, so long as we understand that it’s a lot of people sharing the same ideas and thoughts – not some supernatural force that interconnects us. It was “collective consciousness” that reduced smoking in the US, and led us to gay marriage, for example. None of this required anything supernatural, just people sharing ideas and concepts until a critical mass is reached.

    I like the language of “collective consciousness,” but Neale apparently resorts to woo at the end when he suggests that we are spiritual beings inhabiting biological bodies. There is nothing “inhabiting” a biological cellular mass – that idea has been debunked as thoroughly as the idea that the sun rotates around the earth, it’s just that, as in Galileo’s time, it will take time for this new understanding to work its way through our largely scientifically illiterate population. It has barely had time to make it into textbooks yet, but with the confirmation of the Higgs Boson, the world changed, whether we noticed it or not. For all intents and purposes, on the 4th of July, 2012, God died, but the word of His/Her/Its demise hasn’t made it out to the masses yet.

    Neale speaks of implications – but what are the implications of continuing to lie to ourselves, placing our beliefs over that for which there is overwhelming evidence, while our beliefs are based only on subjective experience and supernatural magic.

    There is support for the idea of top-down evolution, as espoused by Daniel Dennett (who would of course scoff at all the woo), and based on the work and ideas of another atheist, Richard Dawkins. It strikes me as hilarious that the work of atheists who proposed top down evolution, is being used to promote New Age woo, but then these people had no problem with trying to leverage ignorance about quantum field theory in order to support their woo. There is no shame among believers! This, as most knowledgeable people know, has backfired badly on them, as QM tells us the probability that this woo is correct, is exceptionally small.

    As for top-down evolution being non-genetic, that’s not entirely true. It is in large part a “societal” evolution, but it still has genetic ramifications. We developed memes or ideas that spread throughout society – such as the idea that the biblical morality of genocide, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. are not in our best interests. People will tend to mate with those who share their beliefs, so if you are a person who thinks genocide, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, are acceptable, then in our top-down evolving society, you may find it more difficult to find a mate, thus those holding on to these old ideas, who have not evolved the same degree of altruism – fail to pass on their genes. When top down evolution began, probably because we learned to cook food which provided more energy for our brains, and we learned to talk so that we could pass on memes or ideas, it would have made sense that those whose brains were more evolved, would select similar mates, and those who lagged behind fell out of the gene pool. This, it is suggested, is a possible reason for why our brain capacity grew so quickly.

    In my view, everything we do to promote woo, holds us back from facing the truth about who we are, and allowing us to free our minds of superstitious clutter in order to make logical, rational, considered decisions about how to move forward. How can we think clearly when we still believe in unicorns and fairies?

    “Choice #1: You could conceive of yourself as a chemical creature, a “logical biological incident.” That is, the logical outcome of a biological process engaged in by two older biological processes called your mother and your father”

    We’re far more than that. We’re the logical outcome of countless parents and countless ancestors over millions of years of evolution, but we are chemical creatures. That is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.

    “Choice #2: You could conceive of yourself as a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what we call a “body.”

    The idea of a spiritual being inhabiting a body – assuming this is meant literally and not allegorically – is simply nonsense. It’s fully debunked. Neale is uninformed (and probably like most believers, wishes to remain that way!). If spirits were working on the cellular material in our bodies, which would be required to fire synapses, heal tissue or anything else, we’d know about it by now. Science has countless experiments, observations, mathematical proofs (not the same thing as a scientific proof), to confirm this and Neale has exactly nothing. We’re supposed to take his word that his delusional conversation with himself was actually with some other being. I would actually have a grudging admiration for his inventiveness (like I do for the Jehovah Witnesses, who also turn a business into a religion) if he came out as a scoundrel or charlatan who was fleecing people. There is something to be said for parting fools from their money. I would get a good chuckle out of that!

    If the question is about how we want to “think about” ourselves, there is certainly value in thinking about one’s self as more than a collection of atoms, indeed who we are emerges from that collection of atoms, but we have to be honest with ourselves and understand that there is no external magical god, essential essence, consciousness or other force that acts on, or has any influence whatsoever in our natural world. I think the path forward should start by acknowledging what is known to be true, and that continuing to lie to ourselves is detrimental to our continued evolution. We have to face the huge problem of faith and belief – pretending to know things we don’t know is not good for our mental health or the health of our society.

  • Spiritual_Annie

    For anyone who is interested, I found an interesting article entitled “The Power of Cognitive Dissonance” at the website Crack Your Egg. It’s a fairly detailed article, giving definitions and examples. It even uses Bert and Ernie as one example, for those who like a little fun. 😀

    It certainly explained why I feel no cognitive dissonance in believing in the subjective experiences I, and thousands of others, have had. Because I have defined them as real phenomena, and even some as Spiritual, I don’t experience cognitive dissonance in the face of scientific research. I simply think that science has exponentially more to discover than it already has.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • Patrick Gannon

      LOL. “Because I have defined them as real phenomena.” I can think of no clearer example of cognitive dissonance than that.

      The article says: “Our minds then insist that we eliminate the dissonance, by somehow resolving the contradiction that’s causing it.

      So how do we tend to resolve such a contradiction?

      Well, it turns out that for most people, their first inclination is to do so by means of self-deception, in that they justify their existing attitude and/or behavior so they avoid feeling ‘wrong’ or ‘at fault.’”

      Yup! “In the words of Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith: “Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.”” The proof in this case, is the arbitrary and unsupported decision to define subjective experiences as real phenomenon. That’s textbook cognitive dissonance! Just say it’s so, and there it is. Just like all my fundamentalist Christian friends.

      Or, as the article goes on to say: “Most people either dismiss any information and experience that point out the fallacy of their current beliefs and/or the futility of their current attitude and behavior as untrue without further investigation…
      And/or they justify their self-sabotaging or ineffective behavior and beliefs by concocting some rationalization for it.”

      Rationalize that it’s a real phenomenon in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and problem solved. Textbook cognitive dissonance.

      I could go through this whole article and point out example after example of how the article confirms that your statement about deciding what is real is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance, Annie. I’m surprised you posted this, as this article is all about you. The #5 Smoking example is spot on. Grasping the thin straw of possibility that the science might be unsettled, is all you have to hold to to, isn’t it?

      You just proved that you have cognitive dissonance, and you don’t even see it. Wow.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        You are overlooking the fact that I think science has exponentially more yet to discover than it has already discovered. That’s how I resolve the cognitive dissonance, in conjunction with the determination that the experiences I, and thousands of others, have had are real, and sometimes Spiritual.

        Talk about cherry picking!

        • Patrick Gannon

          Of course science has exponentially more to discover, but science knows some things, and knows them very well – actually exceptionally well. Like we know exceptionally well that the earth is not flat and the sun does not orbit the earth. Is it cognitive dissonance to insist on a flat earth? Yes it is, and insisting on your magical forces is in the same category, now that the science for this is settled.

          What science knows beyond reasonable doubt following the discovery of the Higgs Boson in 2012, is that we understand with exquisite confidence, how the particles in our natural world work, and there is no room for imaginary, invisible forces to affect them. But one has to actually read some current science to know this.

          Your explanation for how you justify your belief is exactly the same as that of fundamentalists of all religions. If a Muslim believes Mohammed flew to heaven on a horse, then by god, if he believes it, then it absolutely must have happened. He don’t need no stinking evidence, and won’t accept any – and so it seems – neither will you, but then you’re avoiding the evidence so you don’t have to deal with it.

          Annie, you have to understand that anyone reading that article is going to see that your explanation for your beliefs is the perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            The Muslim of today didn’t experience Mohammed flying to heaven on a horse. I base my judgment on the fact that I, and thousands of others, have personally experienced what we have. I no more believe, personally, that Mohammed flew to heaven on a horse than I do the story of Genesis as historical fact or that the crucifixion of Jesus, who I believe walked the earth, was written down accurately and historically. Part of that is not having experienced any of those things, which occurred thousands of years ago.

            People can think what they like, forming their own opinions when they read the article. They can also share that here, or not, as they choose. I don’t worry about other people’s opinions of me. I guess you do.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Ok, that’s a fair clarification. It doesn’t change the fact that you cling to the belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and that’s cognitive dissonance.

            Consider that the tale of Mohammed flying to heaven on a horse was the result of his subjective experience. You don’t believe his subjective experience, so why should we believe yours? Why do you believe Neale’s subjective experience, but reject that of Mohammed? They both claim to have spoken with the same being. Why is Neale’s tale credible, while Mohammed’s is not?

            There’s no such thing as “allowing” people to choose what they believe. Nobody needs permission to believe something.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I don’t know how else to say it, but I don’t “cling to [my] belief.” I accept science has a long way to go still, and there are many unknowns. The graviton hasn’t been discovered yet. It hasn’t been determined if there are other universes, or other dimensions in our own, and a Unifying Theory has yet to be found, much less even mathematically proven. We don’t know if there are other intelligent species in our universe, we don’t know why as dark matter recedes dark energy increases, and we haven’t experienced either of them directly because the technology hasn’t yet been improved to do so. We don’t know what’s in the “emptiness” of space everywhere—inside atoms or in outer space. So I use the shortcut of saying science has exponentially more to discover than it has already discovered instead of listing item after item of the things which science doesn’t yet know or it hasn’t yet discovered.

            I don’t ask others to believe in only my experiences, or even the experiences of thousands that are similar. I simply state that I believe in them. I don’t believe that Mohammed flew into the heavens on a horse because I, nor anyone else I’ve known, has had a similar experience. I also understand how the Q’ran was put together thousands of years ago, from bits written on scraps and bones thrown into jars and later assembled by his family, which was power hungry and may have changed the writings to suit their own needs.

            I believe in Neale’s experiences because they are similar to my own and those of others I know and have heard from. I have also come to know Neale a bit over the years, and I discern no dishonesty when he shares his experiences. I discern his desire to share his experiences and the results of those experiences openly and transparently, as the messenger he sees himself as. I don’t agree with everything single word in every single book or blog he’s written, or in what I’ve heard him say. I’m pretty sure he’s OK with that.

            I do allow others to hold different beliefs than my own. I don’t try to change their beliefs to mine, but accept that we all have free will.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I just said this in another post. You don’t “accept” that science has a long way to go – you insist on it. Science says it’s finished with the standard model for the most part – at least with how it relates to how things work in our natural world.

            Discovery of the graviton doesn’t matter. It’s an incredibly weak force. It does not have any ability to affect the synapses in your brain or to heal tissue or levitate, or read minds. There are billions of neutrinos flowing through you right now, and none of them affect the particles in your body, because they too are so weak.

            A unifying theory is not necessary to explain how the particles in our natural world work. A unifying theory is desired to unite the various fields of physics. We need a unifying theory to try and understand the Big Bang. This has no bearing on the issue of what affects our particles.

            The presence or absences of aliens has nothing to do with the particles in our natural world. Dark energy and dark matter don’t matter (LOL), again because particles aren’t doing anything for which we need these forces in order to explain the particle’s actions.

            Space is not empty. It contains vacuum energy and is filled throughout by the Higgs field. The Higgs boson is important to explain our particles, and that’s why it was so important to discover/announce it on July 4, 2012. The gods died on that day, they just don’t know it yet!

            I like that you’re reaching, grasping, seeking some rationale for your beliefs. Unfortunately all the things you mention, have nothing to do with how our particles work. Please keep it up, but this all boils down to us having a perfect understanding of what our particles can do, and our observation that there is nothing particles ever do that we have been unable to explain using natural forces. Even if your magical forces exist – they don’t matter. They cannot affect the particles in your brain that fire synapses.

            Keep working to prove me wrong. This is good discussion.

            I’m not trying to change beliefs – I’m trying to remove them so people can think clearly without that encumbrance.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            “…this all boils down to is having a perfect understanding of what our particles can do, and our observation that there is nothing particles ever do that we have been unable to explain using natural forces.”

            This is the very core of all of your arguments. To me, it sounds arrogant if any scientist were to say that they have a “perfect understanding” of anything.

            Science is always creating new ways to observe particles. The more improvements that are made to the LHC, the more scientists are likely to discover. I watched a video the other day that said they hope to be able to increase the energy enough to determine if there is a fourth dimension—or even more. The more we improve telescopes and probes, the more we’ll learn about space. The more medical research is done, the more we’ll understand our own bodies, the causes of some conditions that are as yet unknown, what supports our physical well-being, and possibly new cures.

            Examples like those are why I continue to say that science is incomplete, or has exponentially more to discover than what it has to date.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Let me try the words of Sean Carroll:

            After pointing out that the trash heap of history is populated by scientists claiming to more than they really do, or predicting that they will know almost everything any day now, and providing examples of premature scientists, he says:

            “My claim is different. (That’s what everyone says, of course – but this time it really is.) I’m not claiming that we know everything, or anywhere close to it. I’m claiming that we know SOME THINGS, and that those things are enough to rule out some other things – including bending spoons with the power of your mind.” (He had just told a story of trying telekinesis as a youngster). “The reason we can say that with confidence relies heavily on the specific form that the laws of physics take. Modern physics not only tells us that certain things are true: it comes with a build-in way of delineating the limits of that knowledge,- where our theories cease to be reliable.”

            He goes on to point out that even though relativity superseded Newtonian physics, and quantum mechanics supersedes relativity, that these theories are not being changed by the new discoveries. The calculations Newton gave us, are just as accurate as they ever were. We added to what we knew, expanded on it – but that did not “break” the prior rules of physics. When we learned that the gravity of the sun could bend light, we did not discover that the formulas Newton gave us to predict the movement of the moon were wrong.

            We continued to advance the science to the point where we can now say with confidence that there are no external forces affecting our particles – or we’d know it.

            Yes, scientists would like to increase energy at the LHC, because that might help them find the graviton – but that search has nothing to do with what affects our particles. The graviton, assuming it exists, is such a weak force that it has no effect on our particles in the way it would have to in order to “bend spoons” or any other supernatural thing. They want to learn more about gravity so they can understand the origins of our universe. Finding a fourth dimension isn’t going to change how our particles work.

            It’s possible that the science is wrong, but the likelihood is so small that it makes no sense to take the prospect seriously. If nothing else, we should at least adjust our prior credences to reflect what our hard-won knowledge has told us – that the likelihood of magical forces unknown to us, affecting the particles in our universe which are known to us without our knowledge of this, is extremely unlikely.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Wow. 16 minutes between my posting and your posting your reply. It’s not a short article, and you had to take the time to Google it. Then you had to take the time to write your several paragraph reply.

        How much of it did you just skim over in the article, with your own confirmation bias, I wonder?

        • Patrick Gannon

          I learned speed reading in high school. I can’t use it on all texts, but in the case of material I am already quite familiar with, I can employ it to my advantage. The article doesn’t say anything I didn’t already know, but it did provide some great examples like the smoking one I pointed out. And, as I’ve mentioned before, I type a lot, and I’m pretty fast. I am on the computer all day with business (I reward myself in between processing leads, with a visit to some blog, or to read/listen to something educational – then back to the next lead). Besides, it’s after work hours, so I took the time to read the article.

          Note once again – no response to questions/issues I raise – simply another redirect back to me.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Actually, I’m a smoker. I chose option #3. I neither quit smoking nor do I deny that smoking is dangerous to my health. I simply continue to smoke, paying whatever consequences may come, as the numerous times and ways I’ve tried to quit have never worked. So, no, #5 isn’t a really good example when it comes to me.

        What else did I miss?

        • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

          Try this visualize yourself not smoking even as you continue to smoke. Try this for a year and see what happens.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Thank you, Marko.

            Funny, with my using visualization for other things, I had overlooked the use of it to quit smoking. I’ve tried cold turkey more times than I could count, nicotine replacement (patches, lozenges and gum), hypnosis (which I don’t generally like the idea of, but was willing to try in this one instance), acupressure on the ear, vaping, and Wellbutrin and Chantix (which caused both suicidal ideations and pure rage). I went for about a year once, but when I got stressed about becoming disabled, I started up again.

            I’ll start visualizing myself as a nonsmoker today! 😀

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

        • Patrick Gannon

          Come on Annie, you can’t be that obtuse. You deny science because you say that it’s incomplete. That’s the same thing as as a person continuing to smoke because of a claim that the evidence that smoking kills is incomplete. However, you can claim to have cognitive dissonance in as many ways and with as many examples as you like. It’s not really something to brag about. It’s a mental health condition. It’s an acknowledgement that you are dismissing compelling objective evidence in favor of your own subjective beliefs – just like people who insist the earth is flat and the sun goes around it.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I don’t see acknowledging science as incomplete to be the same as denying science. I don’t deny that cigarettes are harmful to my health, that the Earth is flat, or the sun circles the Earth.

            I don’t “claim to have cognitive dissonance”—you claim I have cognitive dissonance.

          • Patrick Gannon

            You aren’t “acknowledging” that the science regarding our natural world is incomplete – you are insisting that this is the case. That’s your personal opinion, that you use as your excuse for maintaining your beliefs – and that’s cognitive dissonance. We don’t know everything by any stretch of the imagination, but we know some things, and we know them very, very well, and those things say that the particles in our natural world can only do this and that, and they don’t do anything else that requires magic for an explanation.

            The words, “I don’t know” are much more acceptable and don’t lead to cognitive dissonance, but you are insisting that you do know this in the face of extensive evidence that says you are wrong. Perhaps if you knew enough about it, you might change your mind, but that requires a willingness to chance putting your beliefs in jeopardy….

        • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

          Let’s do a test and seal you inside a room with only smocking fums for a hour and see how you do afterwards.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I used to sit in my sister’s bedroom with the door closed for hours at a time, days in a row, with both of us smoking. Your point?

          • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

            “I’ve tried to quit have never worked” Didn’t CwG taught you the power of choosing.
            What you are saying is that you dont choose to end smoking.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            The first thing I said is “I’m a smoker. I choose option #3.” So, yes it’s a choice, no I don’t deny the science, and I accept the responsibility for the consequences of my actions.

          • Craig

            Spiritual Anne
            When I stopped smoking 19 years ago, after 16 years averaging at 40 cigarettes a day. I could not quit using products on the market. I committed myself to a promise that if my second child is a girl I will stop…
            That commitment had a stronger impact on me pulling through than any other thing on the market. If you know WHY the HOW falls in place, with 90% of everything we do in life.
            Good luck. And remember that smoking is only bad for individuals with heart or lung problems or genetic heritages. I’ve know individuals that topped my smoking quantity that lived well into their eighty’s with no heart or lung problems. One individuals body just gave in one day with no prior health conditions…

    • Jethro

      Cognitive dissonance – In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas or values, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

      I have not seen any signs that you struggle with your beliefs. Below I seen your comment concerning Smoking. If you were smoking cigarettes while believing you should not, that’s Cognitive dissonance. You are clearly on a journey without restrictions. That is, accepting of new information. So yes your doing fine.

      • Patrick Gannon

        I most wholeheartedly disagree! Annie exhibits all sorts of symptoms of cognitive dissonance. Her mental stress and discomfort at me questioning her subjective beliefs is clear evidence of that. She was so distressed that she blocked me for a time. (Wonderful while it lasted!).

        I would agree that she does not struggle with beliefs. If she did, that would be a step in the right direction, but instead, the more her beliefs are challenged, the more tightly she clings to them – another sign of cognitive dissonance. She will say that she questions her beliefs, but if so, her questioning does not appear to be very serious. She does not accept new information – at least not if it comes from me! She rejects outright, almost anything I or anyone else says that counters her beliefs.

        I would normally not speak of a specific third party in a discussion like this, but Annie put herself in that position by posting information about a mental health condition that she suffers from, and her admission that her beliefs and personal experiences are all that matter in making a decision – that’s cognitive dissonance.

        Read the article she provided the link to again.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          My blocking you wasn’t because of “mental stress and discomfort at [you] questioning [my] subjective beliefs.” It was the manner in which you stated your case, which was dismissive and insulting.

          My beliefs have evolved over time rather than being unchanging. Maybe you haven’t seen that, or noticed it, here. Yes, because of the manner in which you present your information—arrogantly, confrontationally, and as if I’m some sort of unlearned idiot or a mental case—I have a tendency to react to that manner. I’m working on changing my behaviors, as I mentioned in the discussion with Raphael.

          I don’t “suffer from” a mental health condition. I simply have the condition, which I mentioned as it pertained to the discussion that was specifically about PTSD.

          I haven’t said “[my] beliefs and personal experiences are all that matter in making a decision.” I consider many sciences, including the social sciences, in addition to understanding that there’s much more to be discovered, along what I believe and what I have personally experienced.

        • Jethro

          Well my friend, A retard in a coma new you would disagree, and that’s ok. Did you know it’s considered unethical for a counselor to try and counsel someone who doesn’t feel they have a problem? The biggest reason for that is the damage that can be done by creating resistance towards treatment.
          It turns out, when you insist someone is wrong and they don’t feel they are wrong, you get Resistance. Is Annie giving you a little resistance?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Exactly! THAT is the perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

            Now your point is a valid one. Researchers are very concerned about trying to find a way to fix this. You are correct, that when you provide evidence to someone who fervently holds to their beliefs, the evidence actually makes them hold to their beliefs even stronger. I know this, but I have also read that if you just keep on putting out the evidence, sooner or later, it starts to make an impression.

          • Jethro

            Cognitive dissonance and your explanation of it is not your problem with Annie. It’s your presentation. My wonderful wife Vickie has no tact, no bedside manor. The facts, the complete fact, and nothing but the facts please and thank you! I must pay attention to her emotions but she doesn’t pay attention to emotions of others much. She doesn’t mean it that way it’s just that she says everything the way she see’s it. You do that. There is nothing wrong with that but there will be fall out. In counseling, there is a term called coming through the side door. Gently delivering a message. You tend to rip down the front door and speak loudly.
            I have yet to have the experiences others have described as an OBE (unless I have!). I think it’s a brain thing but I cannot bring myself to tell another their experience is false because I don’t know. I’m pretty sure I know, but I don’t. That is I can’t explain why their statement is false by saying scientist threw a bunch of things in the air and they fell/floated back to earth, but when they tried to throw ideas in the air, well they just couldn’t grasp the idea.
            Researchers are finding out new things all the time, they may find something that is very shocking to some of us or not, but until then, if someone is not hurting themselves or another then I have nothing to say in the matter. Remember that when you bluntly tell someone their ideas are incorrect regardless of the proof you have, your creating emotional pain. People will attack back for that. The impression left lately is, Pat is mean. I know your not mean.

          • Patrick Gannon

            There’s also a thing called frustration. If someone posts an article discussing depression, then illustrates by their discussion that they exhibit the conditions indicating that they have depression, then they go on to deny that they have depression, it gets a little frustrating.

            Further, I see no reason to treat Annie any different than I would treat you. I’d say the same thing to you. I don’t care if I come across as “mean.” I’m not here to be liked. I’m here to change prior credences, if I can. Sometimes you have to shake things up a bit…

          • Jethro

            The same frustration a counselor might feel knowing that a person has a problem, knowing it’s wrong to try and help someone that hasn’t asked for help, knowing they will be begging for help in a short amount of time? I watched a young man leave in-treatment two months after detox that stated he was choosing opioids over recovery. He said so! I gave him a hug and said good luck, it will be a couple months before you can come back, but I will welcome you again. I wanted to slap him to the ground and carry him back to his room!! It wasn’t my choice. It was his. All I could do is wish him well. The only help we can give anyone is the help they want. Anything else is just forced opinion, anything else is us meeting our own needs.
            You are, of course, not bound by those ethics. Sanding against the grain on any piece of wood leaves scars.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yep, there you go again. Here I was thinking of the old adage of flies and vinegar or honey, and you come up with sanding wood. That’s our Jethro! 😀

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            LOL, I get some funny looks sometimes.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Again, I am not a counselor. Despite many here trying to psychoanalyze me over the years, I am not interested in acting as counselor for anyone else’s mental health issues. Besides, sometimes going against the grain, is the best way to remove the surface material so you can get to the heart wood.

          • Craig

            Luckily we have the mental disability… Sorry Patrick No medicine for us…

          • Jethro

            No your not, and as I stated not bound by the ethics. Nor am I outside of the clinic. I was thinking about the way you become a negative topic on occasion. Going against the grain will get you there. A better bedside manner would help. Just making suggestions, I get what your saying quite often, but I get Annie and anyone who feels the need to strike back. As I said, there will be fall out in your approach. If your good with that, it’s none of my business. Get to the heart wood… Nice!

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m not a counselor.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Thank you for understanding me. I don’t deny science but see it as an incomplete worldview. (In the specific example of smoking, it’s been studied for decades and I don’t deny the science.) I try to act within the framework of my beliefs. I’m sure I make mistakes as I’m human.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

        • Patrick Gannon

          But you are denying the science, if it contradicts what you believe!

        • Stephen mills

          Hey Annie you may like to read The Cosmic Hologram : In-Formation at centre of creation by Jude Curruvan PH.D she has an exceptional mind a physicist amongst many other talents .
          I think it’s right up your street cutting edge science from many sources !!
          Patrick might like it too…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Her PhD is not in quantum physics. It’s in Cognitive Archaeology and it’s unclear as to where she got it. She apparently got a Masters in physics, but there is very little information about these credentials. She’s pretty studious about not providing details, which is suspicious.
            Other people have also tried to figure out what she really knows and have come up short.

            From what I’m reading, she was initially part of the quantum woo school of thought – the idea that everything is made of consciousness and that we as humans create the universe with our consciousness. This plays off an old idea of quantum field theory, that is no longer considered valid., and has been discarded by all but a few on the fringe. Observation with a consciousness turned out not to be needed. A piece of equipment can do just fine. It’s not a consciousness problem, it’s a measurement problem.

            Why don’t both of you consider reading a book from a mainstream scientist, so you can see what you’re up against? I recommend Sean Carroll and “The Big Picture.” I’ve read books about this quantum consciousness woo so that I know both sides. How about if you put forth the effort to read something from the mainstream?

          • Stephen mills

            Hi Patrick sorry to barge in she does quote Sean Carroll in the book amongst many other leading scientists in their field.
            It’s not woo it’s science trying to figure out what’s going on .

          • Patrick Gannon

            Can you share some of what she says when she quotes Carroll?

          • Stephen mills

            She quotes information from many scientists in so many different areas .I’m two thirds through the book it’s fascinating stuff. Very detailed and complex science.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Thanks, Stephen. I’ll look into it. I don’t often have the money for books, so I tend to read articles because they’re either free or available when signing up for a newsletter, or are published in free or cheap subscription papers and magazines. But I’ll Google it and her, and see what rabbit hole I might find. 😀

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

        • Jethro

          Oh goodness, we are all mistake making humans. “Mistake makin is Wisdom makin.” Science isn’t perfect either. If we knew everything we wouldn’t need a scientist now would we. Never trust that which doesn’t make sense to you, even if it makes sense to everyone else. In The Emperor’s New Clothes, it was one person who didn’t understand why the emperor was Naked. A child that hadn’t been influenced by something. Food for thought! Love Hans Christian Andersen!

          Love and Blessings Always

          • Craig

            Jethro, if I may add wisdom is only the result of our mistakes when we learn from the mistakes and do not forget them… When we ignore our mistakes we keep transferring or postponing the privilege to take control and grow.

          • Jethro

            Feel free to add anytime you wish Craig, I totally agree with you. Funny thing about wisdom is It’s something we hear from others and rarely know we have it ourselves. So when we recognize wisdom, is it a moment of realization, or has wisdom recognized wisdom?

          • Craig

            Good question, as very often others say one acted wise and shared great wisdom when we self think we may be foolish or even taking a big risk.

          • Jethro

            Knowing that in itself is wisdom.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I can remember watching the movie “Hans Christian Anderson” with Danny Kaye on our black-and-white TV when I was very young, and it spawned my love for both! In the situation I was in, I attached to the story of “The Ugly Duckling,” for obvious reasons. I also love swans, even though they can be vicious. I’m struck by the gracefulness of their necks and the beauty I see when they spread their wings.

            Part of me always intuited that there was a swan inside me, regardless of what was going on around me. I was certainly a misfit that wanted to fit in, until I decided who I am is enough, and how others see me is a choice that they make over which I have no control. I do have control over my interactions with others, but the ultimate judgement is theirs. So, I do my best to believe in my swanness, hoping I’m as inspirationally graceful and beautiful in my interactions as I feel on the inside.

            Some days that’s easier than others.

            Thanks for the memories! (Who sang that?)

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Thanks for the memories.. Bob hope and Bing Crosby come to mind but I think Bob Hope sang it at the end of every airing of the Bob Hope show. Bob and Bing were still very popular during the same time we were watching “Hans Christian Anderson” with Danny Kaye.
            Being ourselves is the most important thing we will ever do in our lives. If we were meant to be somebody else, we would’ve been. I know that because I was and still am, “A Misfit”. We all are when we are ourselves. The trying to be is when we are trying to be what we are not, being ourselves is being, not trying.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            Roy

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yes, Bob Hope sang it at the end of every Texaco sponsored show. Gosh, sometimes I feel old. Red Skeleton, Red Buttons, Don Rickles, “the road” movies… But good memories in the midst of the chaos.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            We are old! Therefore most of the time we feel young. I’m still not sure which way sounds better.

  • Patrick Gannon

    “Proposition: You (and all of us) have two choices when it comes to how you think of yourself.

    Choice #1: You could conceive of yourself as a chemical creature, a “logical biological incident.” That is, the logical outcome of a biological process engaged in by two older biological processes called your mother and your father.

    Choice #2: You could conceive of yourself as a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what we call a “body.”

    Choice #3 You could recognize yourself as an evolving human being; a biological cellular mass out which arose consciousness.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Choice #4: You could conceive of yourself as a Spiritual being, connected to all of Creation both known and unknown, temporarily and joyously inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what we call a “body”—that is the product of thousands of years of unconscious evolution on the verge of a conscious and Spiritual evolution.

      • Patrick Gannon

        You just dressed up #2. As soon as you talk about some non-physical thing inhabiting a body, you’ve parted ways with the laws of physics and the way our natural world works. You’ve essentially insisted that every physics experiment ever conducted provided incorrect results.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          No, I expanded on the concept—including Oneness, that we are joyous in our Souls (and often in our brains) to be in the physical realm, and that humanity is on the verge of a stage of conscious and Spiritual evolution.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Dressed up” = “expanded.”

            What evidence do you have for humanity being on the verge of a stage of conscious and Spiritual evolution, and does the capital “S” on Spiritual indicate some other definition of the word that we should be aware of? Is a Soul different from a soul? Is the soul the same as your self-aware, conscious mind? If so, why does Neale always talk about the “soul’s agenda” as though it was something separate and different from the mind?

            I certainly see no evidence for this spiritual evolution. I think it’s wishful thinking. I wish that humanity was on the verge of some sort of massive change, but in my view that’s going to take some tough conversation – starting with the global chat we need to have about religion.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I see the evidence of our being on the verge of a conscious evolution because I know that the technology is available and being perfected for gene splicing, which alone could provide an evolutionary leap forward. But who decides what direction “forward* is?

            How far behind can it be that someone starts splicing out more than just for health or intellect or genetic disorders? What if someone started purposefully negatively affecting health and intellect and genetic disorders for one group of people, while for another, who can afford not only their own transformation but those of the others, theirs is spliced to positively affect those same things? They will see the results in their offspring, which builds a legacy for the latter and a worker/slave race out of the former. (We do this now through other means.)

            Until we consciously decide that having power and control over others is not an admirable trait, there will be power hungry people ready to take advantage.

            What if one could splice out being gay (ha!) or violent, or scientific rather than artistic/creative? Who makes those decisions?

            I’m an old hat in that I learned to capitalize Spirituality when New Agers were doing it. It means the same thing. And I learned to capitalize Soul and God in Religion class and Sunday School. Old habits, nothing more.

            You won’t like my answer about evidence of a coming Spiritual evolution. (Here goes whatever credence was left!) I’m not just a reader of Neale’s. I’m a member of no less than five Spiritual organizations (that I can think of off the top of my head). I have read books by Wayne Dyer and Gary Sukov and Scott Peck, I subscribe to numerous Spiritual newsletters (even one from an organization that believes some science is being purposefully suppressed!), and I call it as I see it semi-regularly when it comes to politics on Twitter.

            I think Trump’s presidency will fail because he’s a narcissist under a micron microscope. A presidential failure of the magnitude that could hit when he implodes is a symptom of a failure of a political system based on separation. It could easily cause a failure in our system of justice (the recent pardon is not the first time he’s believed he’s right regardless of what the justice system says). The reactions to these failures of major systems could easily affect our economic systems, especially Wall Street, which reacts to major events.

            When people are insecure because what they’ve believed in is falling apart, it’s a crisis. Crises create energy for change. They spark protests. They reveal new leaders. Without being able to trust in their old leaders, where will they turn? If there are enough people who, at this pivotal point, are and have been transparently promoting Spiritual ideas and ideals by living within their belief system, and they’re not panicking… Wouldn’t it be natural to want not to be panicking, too?

            On top of that, though, are the numbers of people expressing their Spirituality on the internet. The numbers in some groups, and the numbers of groups, has been growing. Like any growth, eventually they bump up against each other and there are crossovers members belonging to more than one group and some join together or come to agreements in cooperative efforts. That’s not a projection but my observation of what’s already happening. Networks are being built. Businesses are being transformed. It’s a top-down movement in a Spiritual sense, but it’s grass-roots in its origin.

            I believe in humanity’s natural movement towards evolution on a Spiritual level as well as a genetic one. So many organizations are already saying the same thing, but using different words to say it. That we’re more than what we appear to be, that there could still be paradigm shattering discoveries made in science such as long term evidence that the think-say-do paradigm of creating our own reality works. Not that there’s some magical force outside of ourselves, but more capabilities than we now use. I see us evolving in the way we treat each other, which I consider Spirituality expressed. That’s why I think we’re on the verge of a Spiritual evolution.

            Of course there are going to have to be some tough conversations, one of them being about dogmatic religion. Others will need to be had about dogmatic nationalism and racism and sexism and other systemic “isms”. Science has moved into the realm of what’s ethical or moral to do with science’s discoveries and the creations that are based on those discoveries. Ethics and morals arise out of who we believe ourselves to be. I consider that to be a Spiritual thing.

            And, please, don’t assume that who I am here so far is all of who I am. I’m a multifaceted individual, parts of which I haven’t shown here because they haven’t been relevant to the conversations thus far.

            And all that’s leaving out my subjective experiences, too. Imagine that!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Nice post. Much to comment on, and little time to do so. Regarding gene splicing, I share some of your concerns. I seriously doubt that there will be people who specifically sabotage the genetics of others, but I certainly agree that those able to do so, may use the technology for their own benefit and that of their family. We have always feared new technology – look up Luddites who tried to destroy mechanical looms when they first came out. In the end, what happens is that the new technology inevitably makes our lives better. (Excluding certain technology specifically used for war). The wealthy will have first crack at the technology, as they always do. They will “beta test” it further and as use increases, the costs will come down to make it available to the rest of us. As with microwaves, portable phones and VHS, so too with gene splicing in due course.

            I know what is meant by an evolution in consciousness – group consciousness, etc. and I wish that I agreed with you that we were moving in that direction. What holds back the contribution of you “spiritual” types is that you base your understanding of consciousness on something outside of our brains, and that marginalizes your credibility. All of Neale’s wonderful advice is marginalized because he bases it on belief in the supernatural, and there is no evidence for the supernatural, as we all know deep in our brains.

            I share some of your concerns about Trump, but can we agree, that Trump, like your “spiritual” woo friends, is anti-science. His supporters are largely anti-science. Fundies are anti-science
            KKK and white supremacists are anti-science. Correlation or causation? Whose side are you “spiritual” people on?

            I’m wondering if society works like our personal brains. What we experience becomes part of our memories. If we are depressed or angry or anxious and if we revisit these emotions over and over again, writing track after track in our brain, these patterns eventually take over our lives. The solution is to make new tracks, happier tracks, more hopeful tracks. This is the idea of using MDMA to help eliminate PTSD. Is there such a cure for our societal memory? Can we overwrite all our pessimism, fear, and anxiety with hope and optimism?

            Neale, like other religions, lays down the exact same tracks they have always laid down; reminding us over and over and over again of how awful things are, and how it would all get better, if we would but just believe the right thing. This has never worked. We have to stop putting these negative tracks down in our own brains and that of society, and the only thing I see today that we can possibly view with real optimism is science.

            “Not that there’s some magical force outside of ourselves, but more capabilities than we now use.”

            That is a very powerful statement, coming from you, Annie. Being open to the possibility that we have untapped capabilities that originate not in some essential essence, but in our wet and mushy brains, seems like a big limb for you to go out on. If you can grant the brain these powers, then you can grant it the power to have created your subjective experiences!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I hope you understand that gene splicing was just one example of a scientific technology that has us on the verge of a leap in evolution. There’s also artificial intelligence, the bonding of physical bodies with robotics and computers, and I’m sure more. And with each comes the choice to use it to humanity’s benefit or not. I see all these moral and ethical choices as Spirituality expressed.

            I’m aware Trump is anti-science. Trump’s not really “for” much of anything, but defines himself by what he’s against. I can’t speak for all people who are Spiritual, but for myself and those I know, we believe that all people are equal, and so would support movements that are inclusive. We believe in attaining goals through nonviolence, including coercion. We believe that politics is also our Spirituality expressed as much of it determines how we treat others. I don’t avoid politics, but look at issues rather than personalities. Trump is an exception because he’s made his personality an issue.

            One can choose one’s perspective about the information Neale provides. One choice is to see judgement and guilt in stating that we aren’t all that we can be as a species. Another view (my own) is to be excited at the potential we have to be more than we currently are. I didn’t see the posting of the 16 ways HEB’s are different than human beings as condemnations of humanity. I see them as things we are able to achieve when we reach our full potential.

            It’s repeatedly said in CWG that we are a young species. I believe we’re having growing pains—literally as in overpopulation and Spiritually as we discover more capabilities with our bodies, our Souls and Divine Energy.

            I purposefully left my subjective experiences out of my previous post because we disagree about their origin and meaning. I’ll just say that, with my understanding of myself as Divine Energy in three different forms, that means my mushy brain is Divine, too. That makes my thoughts, words and deeds—and my subjective experiences—Divine as well.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            “It’s repeatedly said in CWG that we are a young species.”

            Perhaps in Book 2 or 3 which I don’t have online. Book 1 does not include the word “species.” The word “young” is used several times, but not in reference to humans being a young species.

            As for your mushy brain – it may be divine, but it’s not going along for the trip – nor is your mind – when you pass on. Divinity is generally described as something eternal, and that, of course, is not our mushy brains! (Well, the elements within them may be eternal, but not the organism itself).

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I don’t have any of the books to reference except Book 4, but there was a progression to the books. Book 1 spoke about the personal perspective of what each of us can do. Book 2 spoke more to what we can do on Earth as a whole. Book 3 took a larger view that included other life forms and our universe. Book 4 addresses our species and that there are other species that are willing to help us evolve.

            The example I’m thinking of was borrowed (I can’t remember the source) that laid out the history of our planet in comparison to a years-long calendar. If one looks at it from that perspective, we (homo sapiens) didn’t arrive until sometime in very late December. That is what I’ve often heard used as a way of explaining how young our species is.

            If my mushy brain consists of the core building blocks of Divine Energy that’s conscious, then I, my brain, my mind, my Soul and Divine Energy share the same experiences and memories. This is what I believe to be true.

      • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

        “Connected to all of Creation both known and unknown,”
        No, thanks, where is the exit where separation is real?

        • Spiritual_Annie

          You don’t have to agree with me. I don’t know where “the exit where separation is real” exists. I would suggest that you sit quietly, focus on your breathing and ask Divinity where it is. Or you could pick #1 from Neale’s choices, and wait to die into nothing but the breakdown of your physical body.

          I would suggest, in merely a kindly manner, that if you are so unhappy with this life that you would prefer to be separated from all Creation, you think about finding some help in alleviating your unhappiness in the meantime.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

            ” that if you are so unhappy with this life” Actually I’m quite happy with little self it’s the big self that I have no desire to tolerate. Why? You might ask? Because I requested certain things that my big self has failed to delivered in the time frame I requested so I see it as betrayer. Bye bye

  • Raphael

    I wrote this as a result of having gotten into a bit of a conflict with Patrick. I usually refrain from getting personal, as we are here to converse about ideas, not personalities. But Patrick brought up the personal angle, so Pat, take a deep breath!

    Let me enlighten you a bit, because it appears that you completely lack self-awareness.

    You haunt this blog like a driven man to repeat the same things over and over gain, about “woo” and cognitive dissonance, among other things. You pounce on every comment to “set people straight”, assuming that you and you only are in possession of the true gospel of science. You insult everyone’s most cherished beliefs and dismiss their most precious experiences as meaningless or illusory.

    You are often antagonistic and disrespectful, as well as rather arrogant and overbearing, and regularly insult certain individuals (Neale, Annie, etc) because you know you can get away with it, as they, unlike me, usually make a super-human effort to be kind. I don’t feel such a need to act kind at all times, perhaps due to my non-Christian roots.

    You are not, most of the time, having a normal conversation, but you seek to debate, apparently motivated by an unhealthy drive to be right and prove others wrong (this could come from low self-worth, but that’s for you and you only to figure out).

    But your mission to “save” everyone here from “woo” spirituality is not that of a reasonable person but of a messianic believer. Your present faith is in science, but in psychological terms it seems that you have simply replaced your Christian and new age beliefs with an equally intense faith in science, and are acting as a sort of missionary who is out to convert the unenlightened.

    There can be many similarities between a missionary and a bully. Do you seek to convert others (to the atheist and scientific perspective) or to bully them into seeing the error of their ways? Do you honestly think that if you keep repeating the same things over and other again, and debating everyone to exhaustion, people will give up their own thoughts?

    This fervent sort of drive overtakes a lot of people, so don’t feel bad. Many individuals replace one compulsion with another, when they fail to address the root cause of their unhealthy needs or drives.

    So what is driving you Patrick? You frequently write about Neale in a way that clearly reveals a certain amount of resentment towards him. You question his motivations in a way that is insulting, clearly stating that he is out to make money selling “woo”. What is the origin of such hostility (I won’t use the word “hate”, unlike you, as I only use words that reasonably apply to a given situation).

    But again Patrick, that’s only for you to admit to yourself and work out in your own private space-or not. Perhaps it is time to let go of such resentment, if such a resentment exists…for your own well-being!

    • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

      “You haunt this blog like a driven man to repeat the same things over and over again”
      Just like Neale?
      “You insult everyone’s most cherished beliefs”
      I can talk about my most cherished beliefs but without any backing the are rendered meaningless.

      • Raphael

        Neale own this blog…he is not a guest. Perhaps Patrick should start his own blog?

        So if you were to tell a woman (or any human) that you love her and ask her to believe you, would you expect her to demand scientific proof that your love for her is real, and would you be able to provide such scientific proof? If not, would you accept the fact that your talk of love is completely meaningless?

        Nobody is claiming here that humans can fly. Unless I missed something…The point about Patrick’s faith in science is his own intensity about it…his unrelenting messianic approach to converting and saving the poor “woo” practitioners. I think you missed the nuance that he has the psychological mindset of a believer…he simply traded one ardent faith, one idol, one mission to convert the errant flock for another.

        • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

          So if you were to tell a woman (or any human) that you love her and ask her to believe you, “would you expect her to demand scientific proof “?
          Traditionally relationships aren’t in such position to request proof so I wouldn’t expect it because I wouldn’t have been thought to see it that way or I haven’t seen a example like that.

          that your love for her is real, and would you be able to provide such scientific proof?
          I could rationalize my love or to put it in better terms demonstrate it.

          If not, would you accept the fact that your talk of love is completely meaningless?
          Given that result I would say Yes.

        • Patrick Gannon

          You guys have turned it into my blog by making me the center of attention. Can you get Neale to let me post articles?

          Evidence for love is not all that hard to obtain. If a person is caring, kind, and considerate, the evidence is pretty clear. If I loved a woman and she demonstrated no evidence of loving me, that would be pretty obvious.

          Why are you so concerned about me converting the errant flock? Neales’ recent survey illustrated that aside from a very few of us, the rest believe in imaginary, invisible beings that live in the sky. That means I have a lot of work to do!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I’m honestly confused. Isn’t your evidence based on your subjective experiences of what love is, rather than compelling, objective evidence? I’m not being snarky here, I just am confused because you always insist on it with others. Why or how is this different from believing in other subjective experiences? Or what am I missing?

          • Patrick Gannon

            It’s not subjective. If your lover is kind to you – that’s an objective action, something observable, even documentable. If they throw rocks at you, that’s an objective action; one that indicates love may be in short supply. Seeing, hearing, observing the actions of one who says they love you are all objective evidence. Now the lover might still be lying and misleading you – but that doesn’t mean the evidence wasn’t real; it just means it was misinterpreted.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            OK, I get what you are saying. But isn’t the experience and definition of love different for different people? Doesn’t that make it subjective from the start? Again, not being snarky or nitpicking, just trying to understand.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I appreciate any topic that isn’t about me for a change, and I’m not taking your comments as snark or nitpicking – they are good questions. Sure the experience is different for different people. You and I probably experience the color “red” differently from each other. After all we have different brains. Our neural patterns are going to be different. We aren’t talking about the internal experience of love though – we were talking about (or at least I thought we were), the manifestation of love – can love be objectively demonstrated, and I would argue that yes it can, and you seem to agree with that.

            The subjective experience of love, as with the subjective experience of red, are all products of neural patterns in our brain – just like other subjective experiences. Love and “red” can be demonstrated as being real things through objective evidence, as discussed above. Some magical power that gives us ESP has no objective evidence to justify it though. You can justify the internally subjective experience of love from another person, because you can objectively see that it’s being practiced or delivered or manifested or whatever the right word is. You can’t do that with magical powers. There is nothing to confirm that they even exist, while the confirmation that love exists or fails to exist, is, or can be, quite easily demonstrated.

          • Craig

            What do you consider to be love?
            A parent caring for offspring above partner,
            A partner caring more for the other partner than the offspring,
            Caring for others to protect them from others,
            Caring for others by helping them protect themselves,
            Showing sympathy,
            Showing empathy,
            Forgiving others their wrong,
            Helping others understand how their words and actions may hurt others and permitting them freedom to seek resolution,
            Telling others in the face how wrong they are and that they must stop before someone really gets hurt,
            Letting others progress on a route of self distribution,
            Permitting others to investigate a route that may be self destructive,
            Etc.
            I have learnt that our definition of love does seem to somehow influence our way of expression which may be construed to be disrespectful when we actually try to be good.

            Should we maybe discuss the power of love or rather the nature of love to bring about change. For love changes everything…

          • Patrick Gannon

            I go with Robert Heinlein’s definition of love: Love is that condition in which the happiness of another is essential to your own.

            I’ve never heard a definition that I consider to be better than that one.

            Many of the things you list are objective ways of demonstrating love.

          • Craig

            The Greek term Agape a one direction commitment to cater for the need of another,sounds very much the same while the Hebraic meaning is involving yourself with others so that even strangers benefit from your presence.
            Now the calling make this love your centre point of existence…
            That is the sacrifice that saves and gets people united…
            Good definition provided thank you it summarizes that purpose of love others like the love that is shown to you as an example.
            The reason why this failed because we confused love with emotions while love actually entails commitment.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Thank you, my friend—for speaking out and for standing up for me. I have been learning to be more blunt with Patrick, even though I don’t like having to do it. He’s stated he believes I see it as a competition when I don’t. I think he’s possibly projecting his own ideas about our interactions here. I’d watch out, though, as he often gets more heated when the subject is himself and his motivations.

      Love and Blessings Always, and some ((( hugs ))),
      ~Annie

      • Patrick Gannon

        Can the condescension. Of course it’s a competition. You go out of your way to find any little thing that you think you might ding me with, but you almost always lose. Give it up and read a science book for a change.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          I didn’t write my comment feeling any sense of condescension. I was thanking a friend, sharing that I’m learning a new behavior, shared something you’d already openly stated that’s not true, suggested you might be projecting how you feel about our exchanges here, and warned him that you can get heated when you or your motivations are the subject.

          Is any of it untrue? All I was doing was being open and honest. Again, I don’t see my exchanges with you as competition. Heated debate, yes. Your being dismissive and insulting, yes. Have I dismissed your ideas in an arrogant way since I unblocked you? Have I insulted you since I unblocked you? Again, those are behaviors I’m attempting to change.

          Why this hostility? I haven’t “dinged” you since I unblocked you, have I? If I have, I apologize as that’s part of the new behavior I’m trying to learn with you, too. (BTW, your previous comment about turning the conversation to you rather than what information you posted was because you read my posts out of order.)

          • Patrick Gannon

            Friday afternoon, and few emails to process… Oh boy… Who here knows what Bayesian analysis is?

            Annie, we all start off any investigation with what is called a prior credence. A prior credence can never be exactly 0% or exactly 100%. For example, my prior credence for the Abrahamic god is well under 1%. My prior credence for a deistic god, is perhaps 5%. My prior credence for Neale’s god is also well under 1%. Once upon a time, that prior credence was probably over 50%, and as time has gone by, the prior credence has dropped to the bottom, due to growing evidence that it just couldn’t be true.

            Now you surely have different prior credences. We all do. For you (just guessing), let’s say your prior credence for an Abrahamic god is 10%, a deist god (created the universe but has absolutely nothing to do with it thereafter) is 5% and your prior credence for Neale’s god is 80%. Just guesses on my part.

            What we do, is start with those prior credences and then add data, adjusting the credences as we go, depending on what the data tells us. Even if one has an extremely high or extremely low prior credence, if the analysis is honestly followed through, then enough evidence should cause those credences to adjust accordingly. I mention all this to make a point. As a result of using this (Bayesian) process here over the last few years, my prior credence for much of what you say is pretty low, so when you tell me you aren’t competing with me – plain and simple – I don’t believe you. I see it as competition, and respond in kind because it’s a game I enjoy playing. I have dementia in my ancestry and keeping my mind sharp sparring with you and others, is something I do in part for purely personal and selfish reasons. I want to be pushed to think. I appreciate you helping me to keep my mind sharp, whether you admit you’re part of the game or not. However I would really prefer to speak about issues than myself.

            From my perspective, I only become heated when I feel like I’m being personally insulted. I anxiously look forward to challenges to my points, but get very little of that. My conversation might become more animated if my points are challenged – I do get fired up and enjoy the debate, that’s part of why I’m here; but again, it’s seldom that anyone actually challenges what I say – instead we always end up talking about how mean and apparently psychologically maladjusted I am.

            Look at this discussion started by Raphael. What does a rant against another individual on the blog have to do with anything of importance to the current subject or even the overall purpose of the blog? We’re not talking about solutions for the world, we’re not discussing souls or gods, we’re not talking about the differences between subjective and objective evidence. We’re not talking about dualism or panpsychism (oneness). We’re talking about Pat Gannon. I never had any idea that I would turn into such a compelling figure! How is this discussion about me going to save the world?

            Forget all this crap, and tell me why I’m wrong. Tell me why we should believe in things science has disproven, and provide some reasonable evidence to support the points.

          • Craig

            The older generation called it hypothesis…
            Scientist referred to it as confirming answers…
            Today we most likely would refer to it as overcoming paradigm paralysis through data categorizing…
            I did not even know this existed until you asked the question then STATA provided the answer. Thanks for the update in language development…
            Keep teaching Prof. Patrick I am learning modern paradigms every day… Back to school I go half a century after my school years… Never ending learning cycle.

          • Patrick Gannon

            If I had the income to retire, I’d go back to school in a heartbeat.

          • Craig

            And the sarmies kept in the socks…. What were we thinking as young ones. No care, concerns or plans just living in the moment. Yep I can also return to that any day. If only my clockwork could be turned back…

        • Raphael

          Have you noticed, Patrick, that your tone changes when you address a woman? You should work on this, to try to understand the origin of this hostility and condescending attitude.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thanks again, doc. Will you be sending me a bill in the mail?

          • Raphael

            You can send the check to Amnesty International.

      • Raphael

        Thank you Annie…I admire your patience with Patrick. Hugs right back!

    • Patrick Gannon

      Bite me, Raphael.

      Let me enlighten you a bit, because it appears that you completely lack self-awareness.

      PAT: Thank you for the condescending insult.

      You haunt this blog like a driven man to repeat the same things over and over gain, about “woo” and cognitive dissonance.

      PAT: You have been “haunting” this blog for longer than I have, assuming you are Mewabe. You talk about the same things over and over again – like how evil and corrupt our institutions and people who don’t think like you, are. If you can grind your axe, I can grind mine.

      You pounce on every comment to “set people straight”, assuming that you and you only are in possession of the true gospel of science.

      PAT: I challenge everyone to question anything I say about science. If I make a mistake, I’ll admit it. Nobody challenges the information I provide – they only challenge me, because I’m creating cognitive dissonance in them. And of course you “pounce” on anyone who says anything in favor of our major institutions. Don’t be such a hypocrite.

      You insult everyone’s most cherished beliefs and dismiss their most precious experiences as meaningless or illusory.

      PAT: Yup. I would prefer to say that I challenge the cherished beliefs of many here. Perhaps I do insult their beliefs, but I try to avoid personal insults. If someone is hurt because I challenge their beliefs, that’s their problem. We’re all adults here I think.

      You are often antagonistic and disrespectful, as well as arrogant and overbearing, and regularly personally insult certain individuals (Neale, Annie, etc) because you know you can get away with it, as they, unlike me, usually make a super-human effort to be kind.

      PAT: BWAHAHAHAHA. Annie makes a super-human effort to be kind? To me? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read so far, but keep going. It’s not a question of getting away with it. It’s a question of standing for something and promoting it. When it comes to Neale there are three options: 1) He’s delusional. 2) He’s a scoundrel and a charlatan (and I’d have begrudging admiration for this!) 3) The laws of physics are completely wrong and every experiment ever performed has produced incorrect results. Take your choice. Arrogant and overbearing? Perhaps so, when it comes to nonsensical woo.

      I don’t feel such a need to act kind, perhaps due to my non-Christian roots…as I always prefer truth and honesty.

      PAT: I could be wrong, but from my perspective, this is a change. I had not seen this unkindness in you until recently. If you preferred truth and honesty, you’d give more credibility to science.

      You are not, most of the time, having a normal conversation, but you seek to debate, apparently motivated by an unhealthy drive to be right and prove others wrong (this could come from low self-worth, but that’s for you and you only to figure it out).

      PAT: Again, thank you for the psychological advice. Where do I send my payment? Do you take insurance? Who else do you provide unsolicited psychiatric advice for?

      But your mission to “save” everyone here from “woo” spirituality is not that of a reasonable person but of a believer.

      PAT: Now, you’re getting nasty. Science is NOT based on belief. Show me compelling, objective evidence. It’s not a case of belief. It was belief, when I was a Christian, and then a wide-eyed New Ager, but those beliefs turned out to have no evidence to support them, so I took the mature step of moving on. Thank you for distinguishing between “spirituality” which can include a sense of awe and wonder at our universe, and “woo” which makes unscientific, unsupported assertions about magical forces. There’s a big difference.

      Your present god is science, but in psychological terms you have simply replaced your Christian and new age beliefs with an equally intense faith in science, and are acting as a sort of missionary who is out to convert the unenlightened.

      PAT: Again, I appreciate the psychotherapy. Can you tell me where you got your degree in psychology? Science is not a god. Science is a process. I don’t have “faith” in science. I abhor that word. Faith is pretending to know things you don’t know. I have “trust” in science because it provides evidence, and because I’ve studied a lot more of it than anyone else here, as best I can tell.

      This happens to a lot of people, so don’t feel bad. Many individuals replace one compulsion with another, when they fail to address the cause of their unhealthy needs or drives.

      PAT: I don’t feel bad. I’m having a pretty good time. If I didn’t have an estimated tax payment coming up in a couple weeks, I’d be really happy. Temps are coming down. My garden did really well this year. My yard looks good. My personal relations are strong. I don’t seek happiness, but sometimes it happens, such as when I put a big smile on my face while confronting people who think they are qualified to psychoanalyze me.

      So what is driving you Patrick? You frequently write about Neale in a way that clearly reveals a certain amount of resentment towards him.

      PAT: Neale takes advantage of weak-minded and uneducated people in order to line his pockets. Whether he is doing this because he is delusional, or whether it is because he is a charlatan and a scoundrel, he is encouraging people to believe in things that have absolutely no evidence to support them. That is worth calling out, and I feel no guilt about doing so. I like much of the advice that he offers in his books – I use some of his ideas or ways of speaking about certain things, all the time; but when he insists that there is an immaterial god who interacts with us in this natural world – he is flat out wrong. He never even attempts to provide anything to support his beliefs. We’re supposed to take them on faith. We’re supposed to pretend to know that magical forces affect us, when the science says it’s impossible. He’s wrong. He should be called out on it, and somehow I became the person to do that. You don’t have to like it.

      But again, that’s only for you to admit to yourself and work out in your own private space-or not. Perhaps it is time to let go of such resentment…for your own well-being!

      PAT: And a final thank you Mr. Therapist. Again – where do I send the payment for your psychiatric services?

      • Raphael

        Once again, you cry when someone appears to “attack” you personally, yet you attack Neale’s character and question his motivations in a very insulting manner.

        This alone prove your intellectual and personal dishonesty. Nothing more needs being said.

        Yet I will remind you once again that you started this round of personal conflicts when responding to my criticism of certain institutions and of the one percent by saying that I was “hateful”. Once again, this is the least intelligent point anyone could made. Or was it a point? Meaningless insults do not affect me…but lack of intelligence annoys me greatly.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Cry? NO, I hit back. I said in another post that I’m sorry I suggested that your speech was hateful. It was meant as an observation rather than an insult.

          Of course ending your post by insulting my intelligence means perhaps we should put up a spreadsheet and see who has insulted whom the most.

  • Jean

    “It can’t wait any longer”.
    Well, as you said before Neale, it doesn’t matter. If we die, we will just experience the most joyful event in our life, death, and become again spiritual beings. So it’s not a problem.
    By the way, since humanity exists, you could always find people who said that the end is near. This is nothing new. I don’t see the use of using spreading doom and gloom, except if you want to manipulate people with fear. Do you think really that fear is a useful emotion ? Of course i don’t say that everything is perfect, as there are a lot of problems in our world, but i hate when people tell me that i have to change, or the end is near.
    You speak about “spreading tribal nationalistic tendencies”. Well i am not a racist, but in our globalized world, people are more and more left over, because bosses prefer to hire young strangers, who are cheaper. What you do with the people who are left over ? In countries with a lot of unemployed people, most of politicians don’t want to set a limit on immigration. Before welcoming all immigration from all the world, we should first help people in our countries; but the capitalist world doesn’t care about humans, they want only profits and lower costs. For this, capitalism want no restrictions, no limits and no borders, so they can exploit people.
    Global warming has become a religion. If you dare to express some doubts on this theory you are automatically labelled as evil. It’s useless to express rational arguments, as people are sure they know the truth. I am disgusted to people like Al gore who say that we have to change our life style, and live like a billionaire. Do what i say not what i do !! Global warming is used also to manipulate people with fear : if you don’t follow our rules, the world will end soon.
    The most important problem in our world are not global threats, but dogmatism. A lot of people are sure they know the truth. They reject all ideas which don’t follow their ideology.

    • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

      Your talking about a person that claims to talk to God but can’t give any objective proof that he speaks the truth.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Sorry Jean deleted the post you responded to. I didn’t agree with all of it, but it included some good points.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          My screen showed “awaiting moderation – click to see” (or something like that—I already clicked on it). I think it’s a new person, and new people appear to be moderated for a certain number of posts.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yeah, the first time I went to it, it said the comment was deleted. I was going to respond to it. Then visiting the page again, I saw the ‘awaiting moderation’ note, so it may simply be the case of a new user going through the moderator process.

          • Craig

            Patrick
            Thanks for the response on the previous blog.
            I was thinking of the hear and do of shema not the recited prayer.
            There are but two things that determine our life’s fullness or emptiness: When we choose to listen to everybody AND When we choose to listen to nobody.
            As for something being in control, we will disagree on this as even the desire to evolve is an internal or external force that gets us to focus. Without this stimulus we are back to system 1 living entities… Animals, Automated responders, therefore flesh in control. We need to evolve into being self managed and not autogasmed…
            As for deciding what is right, we must first agree on what is incorrect or wrong or else a community will remain divided.
            Your comments and suggestions are valued contributions that get us thinking.
            Have you ever been to Lesotho? Beautiful natural sceneries with extreme weather conditions.
            You got me on your nationality…
            Can we truly reverse the effect of our actions or are we busy closing the chapter on this phase of human evolution.
            I mean archeological findings prove specific patterns in the evolution progress and each phase seem to end with some disastrous natural occurrence that impacts ever living creature. And just as easily the introduction of the next era begins….

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Craig. “There are but two things that determine our life’s fullness or emptiness: When we choose to listen to everybody AND When we choose to listen to nobody.”

            How about a third option? How about if we choose to listen to those who have something worthwhile to say that they can back up with evidence? There are people I used to listen to – like priests – that sucked out life, rather than contributing to fullness!

            “…desire to evolve…” Evolution just IS. No desire involved. At least as far as biological, bottom-up evolution. Top down evolution on the other hand, can include desire, I suppose; and I agree that without this desire, we may be stuck with System1 thinking. Good point. “Autogasmed”? Is that a S. African word? (LOL)

            I like that you say we must agree on what society says is right and wrong. Everyone will not agree, but societies can reach reasoned moral systems that will change as conditions do. I’m glad you aren’t proposing an objective moral code that comes from Yahweh. The last thing we need is his moral code!

            I think we’re on pretty similar pages here. No, I’ve never been to Lesotho. I do all my business on the phone and computer, however I’ve been providing satellite services in Africa, oh since 2003, I think, so I’ve learned a little about the place. Many Americans think Africans are all the same, but nothing could be further from the truth. Even countries that are next to each other can be very different. You’ve got countries where nobody trusts anyone else, and that’s good for us because they prefer an outsider. Then you’ve got countries where people think the real negotiations start after the contract is signed! It can get interesting.

            Man, you ask a really critical question. Is it already too late? I confess that it looks that way, but for whatever reason, as I’ve learned more and more about science, I’ve become more and more optimistic that we have a sliver of a chance.

          • Craig

            Yes, we can add the third option as we will need some sort of guidance to form a thought pattern…
            Autogasmed is the title of a book I wrote some twenty years ago concerning how we should live on the edge and stop waiting for instructions to do what we believe is the best to resolve a issue. Very basic view on accepting personal responsibility. Never published as it was my learning curb…
            Moral and ethics throughout the ages have been derived from human traditions and folklores. Then the Roman dominance and the beginning of the christian era and modern political or legal standards that were refined as we experience genocide through the different wars…
            The power of the 16th century went from Rome to Frans to Britain to ww1 ww2 and various treaties that create the American, Russian and Japanese empires as we no today. These evolutions did not shape society they kept society inline through oppression. Maybe some leaders should actually live within the lowest class of society to make a difference. As the eagle’s view only reveals the surface…
            Science cannot succeed if society does not trust in it or cannot afford it. That may be what is preventing progress.
            Cars etc that the 1st world can create only serves the them and remains out of reach for the 3rd world. And I think this is what Neale may be hinting towards…
            Which everyone seems to agree on, we just do not agree on the process to achieve this.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I saw a video recently about a poor farmer in Africa, barely scraping by. He worked hard with his family every day and then carried his produce, whatever he could manage on his back, along with help from his family and sold it at the market. It was a very long walk and he had limited opportunity to get his goods to market. His whole goal was to earn enough to buy a bicycle, because with a bicycle he could get so much more produce to market. He could build a little cart to pull behind, put baskets on it – you could hardly see him on the bike when it was loaded up! With the bike, he can make multiple trips the same day, as the long trip is significantly reduced with the bike. His joy and delight at making enough to afford a beat up bicycle were certainly pleasing to watch, and the impact on his quality of life was significant. When the producer visited him a while later, he was working to see if he could make enough to buy a beat up car, so that he could increase his crops more, and hire people to help him, thereby enriching the lives of his neighbors as well.

            First world products are not completely out of reach, but they are difficult to obtain, and unfortunately this problem is going to continue in sub-Saharan Africa, as this is the only place in the world where population growth is not dropping at the same rate as the rest of the world. Whether it’s correlation or causation, one thing seems to stand out. The places that are the poorest, and least educated, and have the highest overpopulation rates are controlled by religions – most of them Abrahamic religions, hence my distaste for these religions that throw kerosene on a fire, while pretending to be firefighters trying to put it out.

            “Science cannot succeed if society does not trust in it or cannot afford it. That may be what is preventing progress.”

            And of course that is another beef with religions, including Neal’s. Religions are based on believing things that science has debunked. People are told not to trust science. Don’t believe them. They haven’t solved this one little thing, so they don’t really know anything. They are corrupt and just follow the money. They are bought and paid for by corporations, they are bad people, and they say all this while using the same technology that debunked their beliefs! The same physics, the same quantum mechanics that allow our phones and GPS to work, stop working when it comes to things that conflict with closely held beliefs for some strange reason.

            Well, in all honesty, quantum mechanics says that it is extremely unlikely, but hypothetically possible that the laws of physics are “conditional” in some way, and people are invited to present their own theories about how the laws of physics might stop working when they encounter a human being, or a conscious being. But the burden of proof has shifted to those who would proclaim that everything physics thinks it knows, is wrong. That’s possible. I’m not holding my breath, but clearly others are, because it’s easier than challenging their most cherished beliefs.

          • Craig

            I once knew a farmer that delivered daily pickings to the towns shops. Summer winter rain snow he walked 10 km or around 7.3 miles into town every morning at 5am to deliver fresh to the shop doors at 7am. He walked barefoot wearing a short pants and T-shirt. Refused to accept lifts. Yes he owned vehicles on the farm but this was his way of honouring his late parents for the sacrifices they made to raise him as one of the wealthiest farmers in the region…
            Have you read the Mexican Way about the fisherman and business magnet on holiday…

          • Craig

            Now here I go again. Second reply, first not found…
            Yep good idea to add a role model reference to work from or else we will be creating our own isolated kingdoms…
            Autogasm is the title of a book I wrote 20 years ago to get myself out the rut. From living by triggered through authoritative militerastic or African mafia as I referred to them to working on the edge at full capacity trying to work myself out of a job into a self controlled lifestyle… Not published as doubt if would benefit others to get a glimpse into my life…
            Religious and political evolutions have been trying to achieve society transformation through oppression of non conforming individuals to idolising so called leaders or political institutes (formed on the ideas of an individual).
            What we keep missing is that the eagles view is but the conforming surface or blanket while underneath life goes on as traditions, ethics and acceptable standards ignore these powers that are…

          • Jean

            I didn’t delete my post. The thing is that i am not fluent in english, and i edited several times my post. The system which manages the comments detects this and considers the post as a spam.

          • Kristen

            Hi Jean.
            Yes we’ve noticed that sometimes things slip in to an ‘awaiting moderation’ mode if edited twice (I think!).
            Problem is there is no moderator in here to check and approve them!
            Take care,
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yeah, that happens here, particularly for new participants. I think some of us see “comment deleted” and some of us see “awaiting moderation” and sometimes it changes. Keep posting and the moderator, whether human or silicon, will eventually post consistently.

          • Jethro

            Be patient and post often, the disappearing posts will quit. Have a few conversations and it will speed up the process.

          • Kristen

            Hi Annie…..same, but I think that option for it to show is only on the tablet version.
            Take care,
            K
            xx

      • Esoteric11

        A lot of people mention Mars but you have to consider Mars has or had it’s own life there. I do not think we are the only life forms in the galaxy! There are theories that Mars ruined their atmosphere through nuclear war. So another planet is really not an option. There is so much out there that we do not know.

        • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

          Global starvation vs disrupting some bacteria on a foreign planet. I think the answer is obvious

          • Esoteric11

            It is so much more complicated than that. Your comparison is unrealistic

          • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

            You are right ! When we will be 50 billion people we will just resort to cannibilism.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m not sure everyone here appreciates the art of sarcasm, as you and I do, from time to time!

          • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

            i’m afraid you are right.

        • Patrick Gannon

          I don’t think we could ship enough people to Mars to put a dent in global population, unless the curve flattens or turns down. The value in going to Mars is to create a backup copy of the human genome, to get us off this planet, which experiences regular extinction events, so the human genome can continue.

          The chance that Mars had a civilization that experienced nuclear war is out of 1950s science fiction, and has no basis in fact. If there were structures of a former civilization, we’d have seen them by now. We’ve been taking close-ups of the surface of Mars for many years now. If there was any Martian civilization, it was underground, and a nuclear war wouldn’t be as effective in that case.

          • Esoteric11

            Actually there are articles from scientist about Mars having a climate like ours but something happened to change that. And our government would not be forthcoming about other life forms and everything they find on Mars. The Mars life there would live underground. They breathe CO2. I do not believe we are the only life form in this huge galaxy, or galaxies. ” There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. your philosophy ” William Shakespeare

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m not denying that Mars may have had an atmosphere and even liquid water at one time in its past, there is evidence for that. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that some civilization blew their atmosphere away with a nuclear war.

            Why would our government hide information about life forms on Mars? How does that benefit the government? It’s what NASA is searching for. I’m confident that they will announce it with major fanfare, if they find evidence for life on Mars. Why would the government spend all that money to search for life on Mars, just so they could hide it from us?

            You are stating categorically that there is life on Mars, it lives underground, and it breathes CO2. Can you please provide a reliable source for this information? I’m sure NASA would be very interested in seeing this evidence.

          • Esoteric11

            Not reliable evidence. Spiritual evidence, which scientist do not believe anyway. And our government has been hiding alien evidence for years. It has gone on too long, the cover up. Even the Mars photos were blurred or blocked out.

          • Patrick Gannon

            What is not reliable evidence? You have presented ZERO evidence, while essentially claiming that NASA is lying to us. The burden of proof is on you. You are making the claim. Put up or shut up.

          • Esoteric11

            You seem very knowledgeable. I am not looking to argue with you. I disagree NASA went to Mars looking for current life. Sure they wanted to study the planet and see if life existed there possibly but if they found current life they are not going to say anything. I believe NASA has known about aliens for a long, long time. Someday we might get more of the truth. You sir, don’t have to agree or believe in what I theorize but I have can say what I believe. I am certainly not alone in the fact that I think NASA and the government have covered up many things not of this Earth. And I really don’t have to ” shut up” , I t is called an opinion and belief for a reason.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Ah, but this post was very different. You said, “I disagree” and “I believe” and “I think” all basic qualifiers you left out of your original post when you asserted things as being factual without those qualifiers.

            You certainly are entitled to your beliefs, but as the saying goes, you aren’t entitled to your own facts. If you make outlandish claims and fail to include the caveat that this is your “belief” then you have the burden of providing evidence, otherwise you can be safely dismissed as a credible source.

          • Kristen

            Im smiling at that…I think like that as well. I dont need proof of people evidrnce or scientific studies but do wish people would just say ‘I heard, I read somewhere or I think’ when typing, to isolate fact from possible facts. I try to do it that way UNTIL its a proven fact.

          • Jethro

            If the war department found a way to use it against someone or wish to keep it a secret from other governments, you can bet they will keep it a secret from anyone without security clearance. I honestly wonder what technology is being kept under wraps because its just too dangerous to be public knowledge at the moment.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Jethro, you think NASA is hiding information about life on Mars, and the government is hiding aliens? Seriously?

            If so, the burden of proof, as with Esoteric11, lies on your shoulders. Put up or shut up.

          • Jethro

            I don’t think anything concerning Mars. I intend to die and rot on this planet. I do think the government has secrets. The question is how many. Do you believe the government is open about everything? My response was to what appears to be your belief that as soon as a government entity finds out something they will let us know. I don’t agree. Has nothing to do with Mars or any other planet. I know planets exist but I’ve never knowingly seen an alien so can’t say they exist.
            Esoteric11? I’ll have to look that one up. That would be my only burden at the moment, but I’m off to work.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Esoteric11 is the person who started this thread.

            Do I think the govt is open about everything? Of course not, and I wouldn’t want them to be; but there’s no reason to hide discoveries on Mars and that is what the thread was discussing.

            NASA is a very open, civilian organization and I am very confident that they will shout from the rooftops any major discovery like finding microbes or even fossils of microbes.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I recently watched a video (now wishing I had written down the name of it) that stated that there were two experiments performed on soil by the very first Mars probe. The one that was prepared in advance showed evidence of microscopic life on Mars as measured by small changes in the chemical makeup of the air in the sealed container, which indicated some kind of metabolism was going on. The other, apparently not originally planned, was performed (I can’t remember the details of the experiment) and was said to prove the opposite.

            If one chooses to believe the testimony of astronauts and other NASA personnel, photos of both our Moon and Mars have been doctored to eliminate evidence of structures that would appear to have been built rather than being natural formations. Some of this testimony comes from those who say they did the doctoring.

            I think the government of the US has already proven it will lie to its citizens when it desires. It’s common knowledge now that the numbers of those wounded and killed in Vietnam were doctored to try to manipulate the growing opposition to the war. It’s also now commonly known that there was no proof of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even though Colin Powell testified to the UN that there was, which was used as justification for a preemptive war. It’s also now known that the Russians backed down during the Cuban Missile Crisis not because Kennedy drew a line but because he made a deal to remove some missiles from Turkey at a later date so that the deal would remain secret.

            I don’t go in for all the conspiracy theories, but I do read from both the left and the right, and read about such theories but make up my own mind about the evidence. More is becoming evident with the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and the declassification of some previously secret information. After all, Operation Paperclip that brought Nazi scientists to the US used to be classified, too.

            Just food for thought…

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            There was nothing mysterious about those experiments. They are well documented. The results are still argued about. For more detail google: phys (dot) org Did 40-year-old Viking experiment discover life on Mars?

            Yes, there are videos out there by people claiming to see aliens and structures in various photos. These can generally be explained by pareidolia, which is a psychological phenomenon in which the mind responds to a stimulus, usually an image or a sound, by perceiving a familiar pattern where none actually exists. This is what gets deer hunters killed every year, and this is what gives us aliens on Mars, and this is what had me staring at a pile of branches for the longest time, absolutely sure it was a wildcat in my yard. It’s a well known effect that is based on the brain’s attempt to put everything into recognizable patterns.

            It’s sad that so many have so little trust in their own government – but hey! We put them there. We keep them there even when they screw us over. We like to blame “the government” but it’s our fault. We can try to effect a bottom up Kumbaya movement to change things or we can seek out real leaders with bold innovative ideas to shake things up. I fear we will wait forever if we wait for option 1.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Many people who have claimed to see aliens, structures and UFO’s are astronauts and pilots, even our own military pilots. Pretty reliable sources, I’d say.

            I don’t see it as an either/or proposition. The government has been proven to lie. Since I consider politics to be my Spirituality expressed, I make my voice known on political matters and I vote.

            So I do several things. I work on my own individual Spirituality, affecting the people in my sphere of influence, etc. I work with others who gather in groups to help raise the awareness and the vibration of all of us. I work on issues I believe are needed for us to survive. I work from the grass roots up and I try to vote in people who are in alignment with my Spiritual values. Unfortunately, the latter is in short supply except on a local level at the moment.

            Just because one is Spiritual doesn’t preclude things that affect real change.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Many people who have claimed to see aliens, structures and UFO’s are astronauts and pilots, even our own military pilots. Pretty reliable sources, I’d say.”

            That only proves that pareidolia affects us all. I know it has affected me, and I’m generally a pretty reliable source, I’d say. If scientific scrutiny had confirmed these things beyond reasonable doubt, we’d know about it.

          • Jethro

            I don’t see it as an either/or proposition. The government has been proven to lie. Yup. Part of the confusion!!

          • Jethro

            What I said is, “If the war department found a way to use it against someone or wish to keep it a secret from other governments, you can bet they will keep it a secret from anyone without security clearance”

          • Patrick Gannon

            I prefer, Dept. of Defense to “war dept.” but I’m sure many here prefer your term since it demonizes the organization.

            NASA is a civilian organization. They are constantly bickering with the DoD who would like to constrain what they release – but NASA has a very good record of being open. Since I’m not as naturally distrusting, as the spiritual folks here, I’m going to give NASA the benefit of the doubt. They can release information without clearing it with DoD. They are scientists, not warriors; they have a different mindset. Knowledge is something to be shared.

            If the DoD decided to keep something secret, then I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they are doing so for good reasons. Right now the military leaders in our government are the only sane people participating, as best I can tell!

          • Jethro

            When they are all about defense I see no problem with your statement, DoD it is. It’s when we are going to war and people are dying over money without concern for civil needs, then they are the war dept. How many of our current battles are being fought with oil in mind? I haven’t tried to keep up anymore. Maybe none at the moment. I know, shame on me for not keeping up.
            Some things should be kept secret, many more things should be kept secret that they talk about, but lack of loyalty to those departments, put in place to handle those things quietly is faulty. And of course there’s that side of us which desires to have no secrets so we know more than we can handle knowing. No perfection.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Aside from a few covert operations to chase down known terrorists, we aren’t at “war” anywhere except Afghanistan, where we primarily provide support and training. If we leave, the women go back to the soccer fields for beatings from the Taliban.

          • Raphael

            Patrick…you really need to get your facts straight, and seek better sources of information!

            Form Quartz Media:
            “Of the seven countries expected to be named in Trump’s executive order, the US is currently bombing five of them: Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen. In 2016 alone, the country dropped an estimated 26,172 bombs in seven countries, (including Pakistan and Afghanistan), according to the Council of Foreign Relations. This estimate is thought to be on the low-end as each single “strike” can involve multiple bombs, according to the Pentagon’s definition.”

            If we are not at war against Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Syria and Yemen, then bombing them is illegal and a crime, logically, isn’t? It would if the American government respected international laws and wasn’t acting illegally under the cover of “exceptionalism”!

            And Patrick, seriously….do you honestly believe we are waging war in Afghanistan to save the local women from beatings from the Taliban?…Really? Wow…I wish I was this gullible, life would be so sweet…I would be living in a fairy tale!

          • Patrick Gannon

            In case you didn’t notice, I referred to “covert operations.” We are not at “war” with those countries in the traditional sense of the word.

            Did I say that we are waging war in Afghanistan to save local women from beatings? NO. I said that if we leave, they will go back to getting the beatings, but I did not say that was the reason we were there. It is an important byproduct though. We aren’t “waging war” in Afghanistan anyway. We have a few thousand troops mostly in support and training roles, who continue to track down religious extremists who use terror as a weapon. If we were at “war” we’d all know it.

            You are trying to play “one-upmanship” with me, like Annie does, and resorting to straw man arguments in your attempt to belittle and insult me. Bite me, Raphael. I never pretended to be a kind person, but from my perspective, you are destroying the image you have carefully constructed for yourself here over the last few years. I have no recollection of you spewing such insults and denigration in the past. You were always the calm, cool collected one. Did you change your persona when you went from Mewabe to Raphael – or are you an entirely different person?

          • Raphael

            Dropping over 26000 bombs on 7 different nations (that never attacked us by the way) is not exactly the definition of “covert operations”. Not by any military standards…it is however illegal according to international laws. But who will challenge the biggest ape on the planet?

            One-upmanship? That is your game Patrick, and I just decided to play your game for a while…as I thought, you do not like it when someone gives you a taste of your own medicine. Your need to be “right” is excessive and pathological (you have assumed the identity of the “decider” of who is right and who is wrong on this site…which is a bit arrogant), and it appears to stem from a need to be in control at all times…in other words it comes from fear. Again. psychology 101. You can send the check to Peta.

          • Patrick Gannon

            26,000 bombs over what time period? Are you encapsulating undeclared wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? What’s your source for that number? Never mind, it’s not what I come here to discuss.

            As for the counseling bill – stuff it. You’re a quack.

          • Raphael

            In 2016 alone, the country dropped an estimated 26,172 bombs in seven countries, (including Pakistan and Afghanistan), according to the Council On Foreign Relations.

            Now, again: if another nation dropped one bomb on the US, we would call it war, without hesitation. But the US dropping 26000 bombs on 7 nations is not war but “covert operations”? In which freaking parallel universe are Americans living today?

            Never mind, such facts are just too damn inconvenient. Patrick, refrain from making political statements about government and war if you can’t take being challenged…just as you are asking others not to make pseudo scientific/spiritual statements if they cannot back them up. Fair?

          • Stephen mills

            Trump just put a person that doesn’t believe humans are changing the climate at the head of NASA .

          • Patrick Gannon

            I know. I know. I suspect that many scientists will continue to “leak” pertinent information the public should be aware of.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I don’t waste a lot of time thinking about it. I guess I’m more trusting. I struggle to think of what technology the government could have that they don’t want us to know about that would not be based on all the science going on right now, all of which is pretty open. My biggest concern, if I thought about it, would be biological weapons, but I don’t think about it. So what. We could get hit by an asteroid. The universe could undergo a phase transition. Life is temporary and if you’re a believer, you don’t really die, so who cares?

            What are the ramifications of not trusting our government when we rely on them so much? It often seems to me that the people who get the most benefits from the government, trust it the least. Is it “spiritual” to be so untrusting and paranoid? I’m surprised at how much of that there is here. I always figured being spiritual meant giving benefit of the doubt, but that’s a rare thing… The starting point is lack of trust. That may be prudent, but it doesn’t strike me as spiritual.

            We’ve got Esoteric11 here accusing the government of hiding things on Mars that never would have been available to be hidden in the first place if the government didn’t get us there. That’s why I’m so happy about SpaceX and other private companies getting into space. Maybe people will be less critical of private companies, since NASA is associated with the government, but I wonder if untrusting, paranoid people are simply a part of life – or a mental health condition yet to be addressed. Is it good for mental health to start from a position of mistrust?

            It’s funny. I don’t identify as “spiritual” but I’m not nearly as suspicious, untrusting and paranoid about our societal organizations as many of the people here. The paranoia is palpable. Tell me how this relates to spirituality….

          • Jethro

            I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it either Pat. when I woke up this morning I was in a good mood and being a little goofy. Said so in one of my post, I was just messing with you.

            Technology has made it far beyond what we know in the public, I’ve heard that from retired military lifers. It’s no concern of mine. My biggest concern regarding the government in the past 10 years is the absence of 22 cartridges, not wondering what was happening to them, just upset that I couldn’t find any.
            Mistrust is not a starting point, it’s an end. I have no idea why anyone is paranoid other than the constant amount of negative feed coming at us. We all know how honest the national inquirer is… Right? So much useful truth coming at us. All those wonderful infomercials giving us so many useful facts. Nobody has said anything about terrorists coming in to the U.S.. Processed foods aren’t killing us or making us fatter, saturated fats are a thing of the past, none of it is related to cancer. We can’t let our children outside anymore, and any contact with anyone outside of our homes will give us a deadly disease. Nothing to be paranoid about though.
            Thomas Jefferson stated once (founding father?) A government that can give you everything can also take everything away. But they would never do that. especially with something as important as 22 cartridges. Is it possible that the space race is still going on? I haven’t heard. Can you imagine the implications of having a communist nation taking control of an entire planet if America discovered one we could inhabit? THEN another nation claim it? Oh the sorrow of it all! Yeah it’s all BS. That would never happen, so there’s no need to keep any secrets.

            Tell me Pat, am I speaking honestly or playing with you? How much of what I wrote above is something worth thinking about? National inquirer or CBS evening news.

          • Patrick Gannon

            .22LR? I have no problem getting them at Walmart.

            I wasn’t referring specifically to you, but to the group here as a whole. It’s a very distrustful group of people, but most claim to be spiritual. I’m trying to figure out the relationship between trust and spirituality, since they seem to be at odds with each other.

          • Jethro

            It’s just a product of different understandings and beliefs. I keep putting the word “acceptance” out there for a reason. Distrust in many things are abundant outside of this group. It’s something that needs to be addressed world wide. How can we develop trust? Knowing something is always truthful is what we trust. The information we are getting from all the media combined is creating a great deal of confusion and mistrust. It’s kinda like a parent talking to 6 children trying to find out who hit who and all 6 are screaming, There comes a point when the stress level hits point of no reasoning (system 1?) and everyone is in trouble. Been there, done that. Time for a 10 minute group hug kids.

            Last time I bought 22LR cartridges (last year), I had to pay 8.00 for 50 match grade cartridges. Been a while since I tried to purchase any.

          • Jethro

            Can you imagine our world leaders in a 10 minute group hug? OMG!!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Photo opportunity. I’d rather see a global agreement on something important.

          • Jethro

            I’ll hold my breath for the group hug… but you never know.

          • Raphael

            Let me clear this up easily Patrick, at least from my perspective, as I cannot talk for others.

            To me (and only to me) spirituality means seeking the truth…specifically my own personal inner truth, and how it relates to how I understand the universe. For me it has nothing to do with all of the usual religious baggage (being loving, kind, caring, positive, being angel like, being pure, virtuous, etc).

            Truth and governments do not mix…history has proven it consistently, for hundreds of years. If absolute power corrupt absolutely, it can also be said that partial power corrupts partially. Trust in one’s government has to be based on willful ignorance and mental laziness, as does trust in one’s religious institution of choice, such as the Vatican for example.

            You mention reading the newspaper, and not watching the news. There you have it…that’s why you trust your government. You should perhaps extend your sources of information, beyond your newspaper and even beyond the mainstream media, to independent journalists like Amy Goodman of Democracy Now, among others. She is one of the few investigative journalists left in America, and she has integrity.

            But I know you will pass on my advice, because watching her might challenge your belief in a trustworthy government, and having one’s belief system challenged is very uncomfortable, isn’t?

            People say respect has to be earned…so does trust. Government has proven that it is not serving the public. From the BBC website, 2014:

            “The US is dominated by a rich and powerful elite.
            So concludes a recent study by Princeton University Prof Martin Gilens and Northwestern University Prof Benjamin I Page.
            This is not news, you say.

            Perhaps, but the two professors have conducted exhaustive research to try to present data-driven support for this conclusion. Here’s how they explain it:

            Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

            In English: the wealthy few move policy, while the average American has little power.

            The two professors came to this conclusion after reviewing answers to 1,779 survey questions asked between 1981 and 2002 on public policy issues. They broke the responses down by income level, and then determined how often certain income levels and organised interest groups saw their policy preferences enacted.

            “A proposed policy change with low support among economically elite Americans (one-out-of-five in favour) is adopted only about 18% of the time,” they write, “while a proposed change with high support (four-out-of-five in favour) is adopted about 45% of the time.”

            On the other hand:
            When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organised interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the US political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favour policy change, they generally do not get it.

            They conclude:
            Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organisations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened.

            Eric Zuess, writing in Counterpunch, isn’t surprised by the survey’s results.
            “American democracy is a sham, no matter how much it’s pumped by the oligarchs who run the country (and who control the nation’s “news” media),” he writes. “The US, in other words, is basically similar to Russia or most other dubious ‘electoral’ ‘democratic’ countries. We weren’t formerly, but we clearly are now.”

            This is the “Duh Report”, says Death and Taxes magazine’s Robyn Pennacchia. Maybe, she writes, Americans should just accept their fate.
            “Perhaps we ought to suck it up, admit we have a classist society and do like England where we have a House of Lords and a House of Commoners,” she writes, “instead of pretending as though we all have some kind of equal opportunity here.”

          • Patrick Gannon

            Since few of us seem to share the same definition for “spiritual” (or is it “Spiritual”?), I fear the word is losing its usefulness. It has become a word that contributes to confusion, rather than clearing it up.

            I disagree that not watching as much news on TV, as reading it in publications, makes me less informed – I would suggest the opposite, because TV news gives us next to nothing. It’s not “news’ anymore, and most of it comes from just a couple organizations. I am more likely to be distrustful of my government based on what I read in the papers by reporters who took the time and energy to write detailed commentary, than the “spin” of TV news. Of course I am skeptical of my government – I’m a proponent of science, and science demand skepticism; but I don’t like to start out from a place of distrust. It’s not “spiritual.” LOL

            “But I know you will pass on my advice, because watching her might challenge your belief in a trustworthy government, and having one’s belief system challenged is very uncomfortable, isn’t?”

            Bite me, Raphael.

            I would ask you to read “The Big Picture” by Sean Carroll, but I know you will pass on my advice, because learning some science and understanding our natural world might challenge your belief in woo, and having one’s belief system challenged is very uncomfortable, isn’t?”

            Done here. You don’t want to discuss or debate, you want to insult. Not even going to read the rest of your post.

          • Raphael

            You have a very fragile ego for a person who insult others, such as Annie, constantly…you can dish it out but you can’t take it! But then it goes with the territory…that and your pathological drive to be “right” about any topic.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I do not insult Annie personally. I insult and ridicule some of her beliefs and I question her subjective experiences. If you choose to see that as a personal insult – that’s not my problem.

            Raphael, I don’t care to discuss my political views with you. I don’t come here to do that, and I regret having been sidestepped into such discussions. If I wanted to talk politics, I’d go to another blog.

          • Jethro

            “I don’t identify as “spiritual” but I’m not nearly as suspicious, untrusting and paranoid about our societal organizations as many of the people here. The paranoia is palpable. Tell me how this relates to spirituality….”
            New day… Do you watch a lot of T.V.? News, documentaries, reality shows, talk shows? Just keeping up with elections can leave people confused. Who is lying and who is telling the truth? We’re always hearing something is good, then it’s proven it’s bad, or something is bad, then it’s found to have benefits. Then we’re told it was all a lie, the study was made by the defensive group wanting to make money. Paranoia is the most common outcome after years of listening to it. We become numb to it all. I still remember being a young trusting adult trying to soak it all in. I gave up.
            Spirituality is a product of our thoughts about anything. Everything is a product of our thoughts about it. When we trust, it’s usually because we have accepted a larger groups combined thoughts about it. Same has occurred for that which we don’t trust.
            Ever think about the fact that religion is a societal organization? An organization of which you are very distrusting, suspicious, paranoid of the intent. Spiritual beliefs are not just about angels singing and all things beautiful, or woo. Spiritual beliefs concern everything in our thoughts. Spirituality defines our personal beliefs in right and wrong. It defines how we will feel about our own actions or the actions of others. We are receiving so much information that those definitions are becoming blurred to those who don’t have a firm foundation in what they believe to be right or wrong. Just because you understand, doesn’t mean everyone else does and just because everyone else gets it, it doesn’t mean you will.
            A great example: The reason ISIS is growing is because some people who have blurry spiritual beliefs are finding a group that supports them. Even though there is so much negative reporting on the group. ISIS focuses on those individuals because they are clean slates waiting to be programmed. Now we’re starting to see people who wish to not be a part of it anymore because what they are witnessing just can’t be right. The individuals are focusing on the spiritual beliefs they had before they joined ISIS.
            There is just too much information to process from all of our communication technology for some people to process properly.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Spirituality is defined as “relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.”

            Is it useful to the (imaginary) soul to fester in a state of distrust? Isn’t what the government does material or physical things?

            When people describe why they think of themselves as spiritual, they will talk about love, caring, compassion, empathy, but you never hear them talk about distrust as a core component of spirituality, which it seems to have become, at least here on this blog.

            No, I don’t watch a lot of news. I read the paper every day, but I’m not an avid news watcher. I am confident that the overwhelming bulk of what I read is not a lie, and in any case, I would prefer to start from a position of trust, at least until that trust is abused – and after that I have no further use for the source.

            I do have the news on (volume turned off) today, as I monitor the storm, given that I have 5 sisters in its path.

            And ISIS appears to be on the run after losing Mosul.

          • Jethro

            Spirituality defined as not physical or material. Thoughts and ideas good or bad are neither physical or material. Just the actions resulting from those thoughts and ideas. The communication confined within your head can be defined as spiritual since it has no visible physical properties.

            I most certainly hope the best for your family in the path of this dangerous storm. And everyone else for that matter.

            I had a couple extra moments but will return to this later.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m pretty confident that if you asked 100 people to list words they associate with spirituality, that distrust would not show up on the list very often – yet here we are.

          • Jethro

            Sounds like Family Fued… Surrrrrrvey says? I’m pretty confident that if I ask Enough people I can find a few that are sorry they missed hale bop. I’m also pretty sure that if you ask 100 people about spirituality you would hear about so much woo your head would explode but I’m not in to woo. I’m talking about that part of people that “is” spiritual, not how they define it… It’s thought.

          • Jethro

            “When people describe why they think of themselves as spiritual, they will talk about love, caring, compassion, empathy, but you never hear them talk about distrust.” Ask someone to describe themselves outside of the spiritual Realm LOL, and they will be kind and honest, happy, forgiving, easy to get along with. Nobody says greedy, mean, distrustful or usually angry, nor do they admit any fears. A lack of trust is very much a part of a persons spirituality, it has to be, it’s part of their beliefs that make them not trust among many other negatives. Take the woo out of spirituality and what’s left? The Brain… experiences… and the thoughts about them.

            The news, documentaries, talk shows, reality shows, good friends, the opinions of all those folks combined creates confusion. Now we find out the news is different depending on where your located. Politics have become cut throat more than ever. A lack of trust is inevitable.

            Good news about ISIS, I haven’t been into the news lately other than weather and my computer CNN reports. Lots of Trump and hurricanes.

            I said it earlier, best wishes for your family members.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I’m not certain that it’s suspicion or a lack of trust based solely on unproven conspiracies, or if it can really be called paranoia when it’s been proven that our government lies and hides things from its citizens.

            It wasn’t long ago I read about the patent process, and how the government can pretty much take anyone’s application and either steal it for their own use or deep-six it because it threatens someone’s power. One of the examples I remember reading about was the number of patients applied for that might supply free energy along the lines of the Tesla tower. It would undermine our reliance on petroleum products, natural gas, and lower the cost of delivery to the consumer. They’re things that have been buried because they’ll upset the balance of power in the elites.

            I believe that people who are Spiritual are as diverse as the rest of humanity. Who defines what’s Spiritual? We each define it for ourselves. For myself, being Spiritual doesn’t mean being blind to what’s going on or ignoring the nature of people who like power or governments that suppress information. It’s about perspective, and it’s about truth telling, and it’s about acting on what I believe.

            Spiritual doesn’t equal saintly or perfect. (And, most of those cannonized weren’t necessarily saintly when they were living.)

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            I would hate to go through life so suspicious and full of conspiracy theories. If that’s what you call spirituality – you can have it.

            “Spiritual” does have a dictionary definition. If everyone gets to define every word as they want, we have no common ground on which to communicate. That’s a problem with the word “god.” It has become a useless word since it means something different to everyone who uses it, and as a result you get division and argumentation. Same thing, if you start defining other words any way anyone wants.

            I have no doubt that patents are scrutinized to check for national security concerns. Free energy patents of any value? Full skepticism alert, needle pegged to right. If this were so, an inventor could simply move to another country that would be delighted to have the technology.

            I think of being spiritual as a state of mind, and distrust does not enter into my idea of spirituality; indeed it’s the antithesis as far as I’m concerned. If I’m distrustful, I can’t get into a “spiritual” state.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Again, not all of the “conspiracy theories” are false. There were whispers about America’s CIA having “dark prisons” on foreign soil so that detainees could be tortured long before the Senate released it’s summary report confirming it. And there were theories about the same time that some detainees were being tortured well beyond the “enhanced interrogation techniques” Americans are allowed to have anything to do with, which was confirmed by the same report.

            There were rumors that the United States had allowed Nazis who could prove valuable being granted full immunity from war crimes, many more than just Werner von Braun. Once Operation Paperclip was declassified, the “conspiracy theory” wasn’t just a theory anymore.

            There’s the doping of even their own operatives as well as civilians by the CIA, which they’ve now admitted to having done. There’s the doping of soldiers to keep them awake longer (and apparently keep them sexually frustrated with what I read about the amount of money paid out for Viagra!). There’s Operation Blue Book, which attempted to whitewash the number of sightings of UFO’s that contradicts the experience of Britain (which did a study and concluded that there was an undeniable percentage of reports by reliable witnesses, many of them pilots, that simply cannot be explained), or Mexico which later came to the same conclusion (much less the numbers here in America).

            We do not have a transparent government. Even the Senate’s health care bill was written in secret, kept from the full Senate who were to vote on it. It’s better than it used to be, but I think it’s clear that there are some things kept from us, sometimes “for our own good,” as if they’ve the right to censor what the public knows.

            Worse, words have lost their meaning in what the government does tell us. That the ACA is killing people. That the Democrats are unwilling to deal when they just did so with the debt ceiling. I’m not even including Trump’s rants and turnabouts. These are our elected officials, who forget that it’s we they work for and not the other way around.

            Those aren’t suspicions or theories. They once were, but have been proven to be true. They are facts.

            I am a Spiritual Activist. I believe that everything is Spiritual, or our Spirituality expressed, or our Spirituality suppressed. Politics is our Spirituality expressed. How we treat the Earth is our Spirituality expressed. Our judicial systems are our Spirituality expressed. Our families are our Spirituality expressed. I don’t believe it’s the Spiritual thing to do to bury my head in the sand or get lost in a mantra in a cave. I believe in acting on my Spirituality always, or as often as I’m able (I’m not perfect). My Spirituality is who I am.

          • Jethro

            Great post Annie!! How are things going on the home front? Still wishing the best for you!!
            Love and Blessings as Always!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Thank you. I’m trying to stay with facts to explain that there are things about which we probably don’t know because our government hasn’t told us, based on our history. I see you did a fine job yourself, from your own perspective. 😀

            So far, so good. Irma’s now predicted to come a bit more east than first thought, but we have no hurricane watch yet except along the coastline just up to the south of Tampa Bay. I’m just north, and a bit inland, from there. Predictions are that it will reach my area starting Saturday night, and the storm is expected to last five days as it passes through.

            I’m more worried about the southern portion of the state, where it’s going to hit hardest, it looks like just east of Miami. NOAA has a pretty good website, and my weather app shows me all advisories in my county and the surrounding ones. Neighbors are keeping track of neighbors already, who’s staying and who’s going. Most are staying as it looks like we’ll get flooding and branches down, but one never knows. I now have five jugs of drinking water set aside for us now, along with everything else.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes, our very “Christian” President Bush favored torture, but this was found and changed. Hiding things in a big government is difficult. What you provided is an example that our system works. It ferrets out things that need to be changed, and changes them.

            Yes, we took advantage of German scientists. Articles refer to them as “Nazi scientists” but how many had a choice? Not our greatest moment, but we were in what we thought was a nuclear race with the Soviets, likely leading to war. As with the example above, this also gives us confidence that our system works, that secrets like this can’t remain hidden, and that we will make changes to prevent such things in the future. We know what we did. Do you think the Russians ever admitted the things they did?

            I don’t know about the doping and Viagra thing – any sources for that? No idea what you are talking about. I know we’ve experimented with drugs to keep soldiers at peak ability during operations – I’m not sure why that’s a problem, since the goal is to make them more effective, which increases their chances of staying alive. If I’m going into a gun fight and there’s a pill I can take to optimize my attention, concentration, focus, etc., then by all means, I’m going to take it.

            You get int BS territory when you say Proj Bluebook “whitewashed” data. Do you have any non-whacko sources for that?

            “No UFO reported, investigated and evaluated by the Air Force was ever an indication of threat to our national security;

            There was no evidence submitted to or discovered by the Air Force that sightings categorized as “unidentified” represented technological developments or principles beyond the range of modern scientific knowledge; and

            There was no evidence indicating that sightings categorized as “unidentified” were extraterrestrial vehicles.[1]” Wikipedia

            There may or may not be aliens. My prior credences for such have dropped significantly as my science knowledge has increased, but I’m open to compelling, objective evidence which we don’t have, or we wouldn’t still be talking about it. Are you accusing our government of keeping aliens on ice? The so-called Roswell incident was the perfect conspiracy theory for the government, who used it to hide aircraft development. Instead of reporting new aircraft, people reported UFOs. If you’re developing new aircraft in secret, what could possibly be a better cover?

            You are correct that our government is not transparent, but it’s better than a lot of others. We are not a democracy. We are a republic. We elect people as our representatives, and we hand over to them the responsibility to craft legislation such as you mention. If we failed to pick good representatives, whose fault is that?

            You say that ACA is killing people – not sure I disagree with that, but I’m surprised at your opposition. Would it better for poor people to have no insurance? It might be – just go to the Emergency Room like they used to do before insurance. Now they have insurance, but they are broke. I’m also broke because I pay for their insurance since I don’t get subsidies. I probably pay for your insurance.

            You didn’t list anything here that tells me I should live my life in paranoia and distrust of the government, in fact the examples you provided convince me that I can trust my government to provide information based on facts rather than beliefs, and to be exposed when they do something wrong.

            You said we all define “spirituality” as we choose – but you capitalize the word, so I will assume that your “Spirituality” is not the same thing I refer to, in using the dictionary definition.

            I have no interest in your “Spirituality” as I don’t think it’s good for my mental health to live in constant distrust and paranoia. You aren’t alone though. This does seem to be a common theme among those who call themselves “spiritual/Spiritual.” Strikes me as sad. How can you make any progress when your starting point is one based on lack of trust? That is not something that draws people together in the Kumbaya movement you all promise is coming.

          • Raphael

            Did you hear that the extremist rightwing republicans have proposed, repeatedly, to repeal the 17th amendment? They want to go back to before 1913, when members of the Senate were elected by state legislatures, not citizens’ votes. Republicans control both chambers of 32 state legislatures. If they came to control six more, they could easily repeal the 17th Amendment.

            This would practically make America a one party state…the very definition of fascism (it would be fascism, under such rightwing extremists, corporate lackeys and religious fanatics)! And it might be 20 years before Democrats can wrestle political power away from these lunatics…assuming that they are not on the same team by then.

            More info can be obtained in the book “Ratf**ked: The True Story Behind the Secret Plan to Steal America’s Democracy” by David Daley…it’s not good news!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Who elects those “extremist rightwing republicans”? This is easy enough to solve, if we stop blaming the government, and start taking the blame we deserve ourselves and changing our behavior accordingly. But we’re too busy not trusting each other.

          • Raphael

            Read a bit more about this in the book I mentioned. The Republicans have essentially made the votes of their opponents null and void through gerrymandering and other shady tactics. The problem is that the Democrats have let them do it, because they are not really the opposition.

            When your only choice is between satan and lucifer, and all third part candidates are dismissed by or not covered or attacked by the mainstream media, how do you change the system, exactly? You must have a plan…

          • Jethro

            “The Republican Party was founded on July 6th, 1854. The modern-day Democratic Party was founded around 1828.”

            The united states was not founded on the ideas of separate parties. why in the world would we want to separate the nation into two or more political parties? Is the desire to compete so strong that we must compete with even ourselves? It’s absurd!! The laws chosen to govern a nation will either work, in which case we keep them, or they fail, in which case we remove them. It’s supposed to be the choice of the people, not an argument between political parties.

            I don’t claim to know a lot about politics but I know the government is showing the characteristics of 3 year old human children left unattended. A three year old animal in the wild is less confused.

          • Patrick Gannon

            We are a representative government. That means we don’t vote directly on issues, but elect people to become experts and do so for us. As individuals, we aren’t going to agree all the time. I may not want the same person to represent me, that you want to represent you, so the two-party system gives us a choice. We could always have a one-party system like the Soviets, Cuba, China, etc., but we’ve seen how well that works.

            We certainly don’t want a pure democracy, or you end up with the “tyranny of the majority.” We’d still have slavery if this was how our government worked.

            I’d like to see more parties, so that the parties are forced to cooperate and compromise in order to win elections. I’m a fan of the parliamentary democracy many Europeans have. You get a number of parties with different interests, but in order for any of them to win, they have to partner and cooperate with some other party(s), which fosters cooperation and compromise. Our representative system is us vs them – just like our religions.

            If we don’t like that our representatives act like 3 year olds, perhaps we should stop reelecting them! It’s our fault.

          • Jethro

            I don’t really know how to respond Pat, our government is full of $hit regardless of who’s fault it is. I have said it before Ill repeat it here… Get rid of the gray haired guys. Quite honestly that’s a scary proposition as well these days. Whatever. Let’em do their thing. All I have to do is live or die, free or not. I’ve been told for years my choice doesn’t matter.

  • Kristen

    I choose neither of your options….I am both. I look like me, and like everyone, my brain, soul, mind and body all together are completely me…how I look, my mannerisms, my physical traits, how I dress and how I am are precise manifestations or a representation of me on the inside….just like everyone.
    There is no denying that people are exactly how they look, life is made this way, we are all born into a blank canvas with our parents physical biology but nothing more, everything else forms as an expression of our self, personalities, life, tastes and what is stored in our brain.
    K

  • Jean

    Neale, i think i know why in some cases the comments don’t appear anymore : if you edit several times your messages (this is my case, as i am not fluent in english and i see a lot of mistakes), the system which manages the comments considers you are posting spam.

  • Raphael

    Well, this thread was an interesting exercise in separation pathology. I took part on a food fight, so I am guilty, but the thing that I always notice whenever a conflict arise between 2 or more people, is that humor immediately goes out the window (except for biting sarcasm, which is another form of aggression), and self-importance and self-righteousness come out of nowhere and take over.

    You might have noticed that, out there in the strange world, many, many people are offended by many, many things, daily, hourly. Many individuals seem to actually look for something to be offended about. And it is easy to be offended by a comment on social media, as the other person is not present to give such a comment a human dimension (tone of voice, facial expression, etc).

    We all have very different perspectives here, but as long as we remain respectful and do not approach the conversation as if it were hand to hand combat, with an ardent drive to overcome the “adversary” with words and ideas thrown like missiles, we might actually hear )or rather understand) each other better, even if we do not agree.

    We do not have to agree in order to understand, and from such an understanding to respect. The point here is not to be “right” and prove others “wrong”, but to exchange ideas…right?

    • Kristen

      Right!
      Ive stayed away cos someone says my humour turns it into a circus or sitcom!!! Or worse…that I use humour as a psychological defense! Really????
      They should have tried plan A….that humour is actually normal and a sign of happiness!
      You can take the humour lead, you must have a few good dad jokes in your arsenal, we’ll pretend to laugh! Perhaps at rather than with you though, or maybe some more lovely poetry might be called for…bring it on!
      Every action has a reaction, including words which is exactly why the internet should be respected as a place where people talk as they would face to face. Id love Neale to suggest that in a thread, pretend we are all in the same place.
      Will fists fly? No group hugs please, remember someone has BO.
      xx

      • Raphael

        Humor is a sure sign of happiness and mental health! So did you hear the one about the Catholic, the Rabbi and the French poodle who went into a bar? Me neither…how is that for a dad joke, or may be a great granddad joke, or a dead dad joke? You are not rolling on the floor? I will try harder next time…unless someone stops me now…please!

        Do people still do group hugs? I haven’t kept up with the human race…I know that someone in the US (probably California) started a hugging business…for sad or lonely people. You simply call or email and they send someone (without BO) to hug you. Seriously. Wherever there is a need, there is a dollar to be made…apparently. What am I doing working so hard when I could be getting paid to hug perfectly strange and odd people?

        • Kristen

          Hahahahahahahahahaha hilarious. Or probably closer to hairyarse.
          You can do better than that, this is 2017…make up a non PC punchline yourself. Thats not even a Granddad joke.

          Did you hear the one about the Catholic, the Rabbi and the French poodle who went into a bar?
          Nope…but conspiracy theorists claim they were there.
          Or Nope….but lets hope ISIS werent there.
          Or Nope….but I’m sure Patrick had fun!
          Or Nope…but I hear French poodles make great conversation.
          Or Nope…but Im sure they had a good night since the poodle woke up with a saucer hat on its head, the Rabbi wearing a crucifix and the Catholic with poodle hair shoved down his throat to shut him up.
          Or Nope….but was it a disability person dog? For whom?
          Or YES…..Jesus had a great night, returning to Heaven with just a poodle!

          You could be onto something….could be a market for your BO hugs, I know it was you!

          • Raphael

            How did you know? I tried to hide it under several gallons of aftershave and cologne from China (I mean Walmart)!

            I like your versions…

            The Catholic, the French Rabbi and the Jewish poodle go into the bar…and the bartender says:
            “What is this, some kind of joke?”

            I know, it’s getting way worse. Some people were tortured and executed in the past for far less of a crime than this lame attempt at a joke. But I am tired and need some sleep (that’s my excuse anyway, and I stick to it).
            Later…!

          • Kristen

            Well it was obviously you when you were the only Californian that actually showed up for the group hug! The rest of us went to Walmart instead. And dunkin donuts for a pink iced with sprinkles.

            Thats actually quite funny…for you!
            French Catholic and a Rabbis poodle……
            The bartender looked to the poodle and said ‘quadrouple shot I assume Sir?’

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Or the Catholic, the Rabbi and a French poodle entered a bar and…
            The bartender said, “we don’t serve your kind here,”
            So… The Catholic and the Rabbi had to leave.

            (I told you I read every post… ROFL

          • Kristen

            Haha, oops. And thats a good one…Raphael needs to up the game!
            Saturday nights seem to be a bit of a disaster. I work tue to Sat and am exhausted on a Sat night so blob out at home alone needing silence, and check in here. Raphael tends to be on at the same time when hes tired too!
            Are the upvotes yours?
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Yes…exhausted!
            Oh well…
            So a Catholic, a Rabbi, a Native American and a French poodle walk into a bar.
            The Native American looks around and says “I think I am in the wrong joke!”

          • Kristen

            A Catholic, a Rabbi, a Native American and a French Poodle walked into a bar.
            Kirsty was the bartender, took one look at the Native American Mewabe and said ‘I thought you didnt drink…but nice to see you out with your best friends, have fun. I quit, I need to get in a new joke’.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Some are… You’ll have to guess which ones, though. *Grin*

          • Kristen

            Haha. Maybe someone else just likes dreadful jokes and a recipe exchange!
            Maybe it was Biscuit!
            Xx

          • Raphael

            Good one!

        • Spiritual_Annie

          There’s also a movement for free hugs. Volunteers wear t-shirts that say so and put up signs, setting up at strip malls and farmer’s markets and other places people convene. No catch, no evangelizing for anything. Just free hugs for whoever chooses one.

          • Raphael

            I heard about this one a few years ago…still going on?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yep, it sure is. I know a couple of people who continue to do it. I’m not sure if they’re local or networked, though.

      • Jethro

        “Ive stayed away cos someone says”. Kristen, Really? Are you just poking at someone? I “says” “Every person that posts a comment here is very important!!” Did that go unnoticed? I’ve said it several times. Change out of your pity sweatpants and back into your big girl sweatpants and share what’s on your mind! Wait, maybe you’ve already done that.
        Take Care,

        • Kristen

          Haha, no pity sweatpants, I just chose to respect they wanted it kept more serious, I cant stay serious for long. Nothing to share really….thats the point. Although now Raphael says he wants humour back!
          Xx

          • Jethro

            Well me too! I have no problem with humor and I have the ability to skip past what doesn’t interest me. Keep quiet when quiet suits you but never because someone said. I really enjoy your serious comments, the humor isn’t bad and it boosts someone’s day. That’s a blessing. Be blessed and bless another…Always!

          • Raphael

            I always wanted humor…even though I try to be serious as well, but too much seriousness makes us look really foolish, actually.

          • Kristen

            I like that…..’seriousness makes us look really foolish’. True, or how I feel anyway. If Im serious for too long I feel like nob! Im in a short phrase phase (no I dont have a stutter) at the mo. Sick of reading!

    • Patrick Gannon

      I’m on board with that.

      • Kristen

        Xx

  • Jean_Sillard

    As my previous comment has been blocked, i try to post it again, with another account :

    “It can’t wait any longer”.
    Well, as you said before Neale, it doesn’t matter. If we die, we will just experience the most joyful event in our life, death, and become again spiritual beings. So it’s not a problem. As spiritual beings, we know that time is an illusion, and as such there is no urgency. Of course our shapes will change, but not our true nature. As spiritual beings,we should not be attached to a particular shape.
    By the way, since humanity exists, you could always find people who said that the end is near. This is nothing new. I don’t see the use of using spreading doom and gloom, except if you want to manipulate people with fear. Do you think really that fear is a useful emotion ?
    I think the values of the Judeo Christian world are still very alive in our mind : human being is guilty and he has to repent if he wants to save his soul. As we live in a modern society, we have just changed a little bit the word : we have to repent if we want to save the planet. The words are different, but the in the depth the idea that human being is bad and guilty is the same.
    Of course i don’t say that everything is perfect, as there are a lot of problems in our world, but i hate when people tell me that i have to change because the end is near.

    You speak about “spreading tribal nationalistic tendencies”. Well i am not a racist, but in our globalized world, people are more and more left over, because bosses prefer to hire young foreigners, who are cheaper. What you do with the people who are left over ? Even in countries with a lot of unemployed people, most of politicians don’t want to set a limit on immigration. Before welcoming all immigration from all the world, we should first help people in our countries; but the capitalist world doesn’t care about humans, they want only profits and lower costs. That’s why capitalism wants no economical restrictions, immigration without limits and a global world with no borders, so they can exploit people.
    Global warming has become a religion. If you dare to express some doubts on this theory you are automatically labelled as evil. It’s useless to express rational arguments, as people are sure they know the truth. I am disgusted to see a person like Al gore who says that we have to change our life style, and at the same time he lives like a billionaire. Do what i say not what i do !! Global warming is used also to manipulate people with fear : if you don’t follow our rules, the world will end soon.
    The most important problem in our world are not global threats, but dogmatism. A lot of people are sure they know the truth. They reject all ideas which don’t follow their ideology. I have personal convictions of course, but i am sure that we have still so much to learn. The universe is full of wonderful mysteries we are not yet aware. That’s why i feel humble in every day life. But i react very strongly when i feel people want to impose their ideas with fear.

    • Craig

      Thank you for the reposting now I can also follow the comments by other bloggers to your message.
      Just a question if a soul and spirit have no form or unique physical attributes, how can we conclude they will be different or even experience anything when removed from the body through death and return to God the giver thereof (both statements are Biblical claims) as they do not reveal such abilities in their existing transporting vessels or confining barriers…
      Maybe Neale can help us with his further personal explanation here.
      Jean, I do really not expect you to answer me. I would like Neale’s involvement as the initiating blogger to be more involved with clarifying burning issues than just moving on to the next blog… After all he is claiming to be the prophet or inspired messenger.
      Paraphrasing other peoples words does not make one a messenger of a divine entity it makes one a follower of earlier messengers…

      • Patrick Gannon

        And while we’re at it, what happens to the mind? Neale has always proposed that we are triune creatures made of body, mind and soul. The soul is in charge. It is part of god. It has an agenda. The body and mind are merely its tools and based on the laws of physics, they do not go along for the ride with the soul, when it goes on its merry way. That means no memories go with the soul, as those are all products of the mind, which is staying behind and decomposing along the the body it is part of. So if this soul really exists – why should we care?

        From the Sept 1 newsletter: “,,,,the soul of humans and the essence of God is one and the same thing. So our soul is always totally joyful, loving, accepting, blessing and grateful. The trick is to bring our body and our mind into alignment with that deep inner nature of our being. ”

        What he must mean, it seems to me, is the soul’s body, and the soul’s mind, for these things are here for the benefit of the soul. The “we” part is in the mind. As you can see, the soul is separate from the body and mind, which the soul is apparently trying to manipulate. (How it does so without violating the laws of physics, is another question). The soul is one with God, the mind is not, but the mind is who we are. The mind is our memories, experiences, emotions, etc. That is not part of God. It is not going along for the trip, as best I can tell. How the soul can experience emotions without the mind, is something I also can’t figure out. One might as well say that a rock is joyful, loving, accepting, blessing and grateful.

        The column he posted in today’s weekly newsletter seems to confirm that it’s the soul that gets to bail out, but the part that we identify as who we are, remains behind. So why should we give a flying fart about this nebulous soul that is using us for its own agenda? “We” our minds, won’t be around to benefit from it. I’ve been asking this for months, but no comment thus far. Annie took a stab at it a while back, but she’s the only one. My understanding of her position on this, is that basically she (her mind) is a nice person and she wants to help her soul, and so she does so, doing what she thinks the soul wants (hold certain beliefs to advance its agenda?) whether her mind goes along or not. How a soul can “want” something or have an agenda without a mind, is something I’m not clear on. Anyway, I’m not so loving. Love is that condition in which the happiness of another is essential to your own. The happiness of the soul is of little interest to me, if I’m (my mind) not going along for the trip.

        “I would like Neale’s involvement as the initiating blogger to be more involved with clarifying burning issues than just moving on to the next blog… After all he is claiming to be the prophet or inspired messenger.
        Paraphrasing other peoples words does not make one a messenger of a divine entity it makes one a follower of earlier messengers…”

        Well said, Craig. Well said! Neale only rarely participates. Sometimes he’ll respond to the first couple posts, but after that you seldom see him. He puts us in the playroom, throws in a toy, and shuts the door to let us fight over the toy, while he cashes the checks! Remember, New Age is a business. What surprises me is that there is no advertising on this blog.

        Remember as well, that there isn’t a single messenger or prophet in human history, who knew any more about technology than what was present at that time. Jesus, said it was OK to eat without washing your hands. He didn’t know anything about germs. Neale, like every other individual who claims to have spoken with a god, was also left without anything that might have validated this god as being who Neale says he is, rather than a figment of his imagination.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          I missed this earlier. I’m going to take another stab at it for you, using terms with which I’m pretty sure you’re familiar.

          If one believes (as I do) that before matter of any kind was created, then all there was, was one thing, which I think of as Divine Energy. From that Divine Energy, which is conscious (and, no, I don’t know the specific details about how all of this is works), Souls are emergent. They are individuations, but not separate, and are also conscious. From those Souls, our individual lives are emergent. We are individuations, but not separate, also conscious.

          The connection between all three is the Divine Energy (and consciousness) of which all consist. When I have an experience, my Soul and Divine Energy also have that experience, from their own perspective. In that way, all three of us gain from my experiences.

          If I look at the patterns in my life and what I love to do, I can do a little guessing about what some call my life’s purpose. When I meditate, I can access information from my Soul and whether or not it’s in alignment with my Soul’s agenda. Or, it can be affirmed by how I feel when I’m doing something. When I’m in alignment with my Soul’s agenda, I can feel it—it brings me joy, time becomes “lost” or irrelevant when I’m doing it, and I gain affirmation from others. There’s no conflict between what I love to do and my Soul’s agenda. I’m not it’s slave, but its means by which it can gain experiences and, because of the connection, Divine Energy also gains from my experiences.

          My experiences are how my Soul and Divine Energy (get ready for it!) evolve. All three, interconnected through emergence, grow and evolve. I began believing what I then called God as something that can evolve long before I read CWG. It’s not specifically stated that way in CWG—they are my own thoughts about it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I appreciate your effort, but don’t see that it helps. You repeatedly refer to your soul’s agenda, which means your mind is not part of your soul. You suggest that your soul somehow manages to have memories without benefit of any connectome to create those memories, but they are still separate memories. You – your mind, has memories, and your soul, which is going to leave your body and mind behind, also has memories. There would be no need for your soul to have memories if it was dragging your mind along with it.

            So I think my initial summary was accurate. You are a nice person who wants to help a soul that is going to leave you behind, just as it leaves your body behind. I’m not so kind. If that soul isn’t taking my mind along – screw it. I don’t need it. I don’t care what happens to it, or what its agenda is. I will care about “my” agenda, because “I” appear to be real. “Cogito ergo sum.”

            As for the science part – if you’re going to propose a divine energy that has memories, you’re going to have to come up with some sort of hypothesis for how that happens, given that we know you can’t have memories without a connectome in a brain to lay them down.

    • Stephen mills

      Hi Jean I don’t mean to be rude but I think you misinterpreted the message of Cwg !
      It’s us that are creating as we go ,people of higher consciousness take responsibility for themselves and the planet which they inhabit (we have only ONE). If we do as we please our sustainability becomes compromised .We have to now make the adaptions that let us grow thrive and this may let us experience our youth as a species . If we continue down this road it’s not going to end well.
      If global warming is being used as a tool of fear it’s not working !! It’s business as usual as far as I can see 👁. How can you be disgusted at Al Gore he speaks truth to power . At least he’s using his wealth to promote awareness of the issues around the using of fossil fuels for everything in our over reliance of ancient sunlight.

      I agree with you on the need to be right and dogma. Organised Religion’s grip will soon loose its god given authority as people wake up to new/old ideas that challenge the main teachings of separation and the highly dis-functional understanding that we are all flawed and guilty. ( What a joke ) Talk about living in bondage and fear .

      The choices we make now determine the future of our species ,I have kids it’s all our children’s future ,let’s put in place the wise understanding from the Iraquois Confederecy that makes decision’s based on the 7th generation . Hey if we do we have nothing to fear . Stewardship of our planet and sharing would be an approach to alliviate so much of the suffering caused by our non thinking system …or our every man/women for themselves out the box insanity.

      Nobody’s saying we have to go back living in caves ,but certainly stop using hydro carbons for almost everything and the right to breath fresh air and drink clean non polluted water and eat non chemical used food is a human right that our children are entitled too.
      Our planet is abundant the universe is ,its us humans that think nature is the enemy …nothing more cruel to nature than mankind . Look at the Hurricane that hit the US and flooding in India/Packistan humans deny any involvement in this at least the ones in power do with the media not even making the connection !
      Anything to keep the status quo going, the folks that have the audacity to point out what’s really going on are the ones that have an axe to grind and are marginalised .
      We have everything back to front ..time to turn the tables around so we can continue the game .

      • Patrick Gannon

        “If we continue down this road it’s not going to end well.”

        Within the CwG ontology, who cares? Why does this matter? Our souls are all part of god and they are going to live forever. Maybe the sooner it’s all destroyed the better, so our souls can get out of this nasty place and move on?

        For an old agnostic like myself, it does matter. This is all we get. We won’t have a second chance. There are no souls. There is far more motivation to make this work if we stop thinking we get another chance(s).

        Have to disagree with you on Al Gore. I saw him on CNN in his “town hall” presentation. Based on his responses to some questions from the audience, he’s a coward. He’s a slippery politician who takes no chances and has no convictions. He wants to get back in the limelight. If we’re going to make serious progress on climate change, it’s going to take science, not Al Gore. He will alienate as many people as he encourages.

        “Nobody’s saying we have to go back living in caves ,but certainly stop using hydro carbons for almost everything and the right to breath fresh air and drink clean non polluted water and eat non chemicalised food !! Surely this is a human right that our children are entitled too(sic).”

        How do you propose we go about this? Kumbayaists (I coined a new word!), think they can say some pretty words and things will get better, but they never offer practical solutions for how to go about it. How do you get 7 billion people to change their behavior? You can’t get “is” from “ought.” What we ought to do doesn’t matter. What matters is what is. What can we do that is practical? Bill and Ted’s “be excellent to each other” is not going to solve climate change. The only hope I see, is science, and CwG is not friendly to science.

        And who says we have a “right” to anything? Where is that written? Rights are things people proclaim, stake out and defend. There is no such thing as a “right” by virtue of being born a human. Your only right is to eventually die, and in many cases, the medical profession, due to religious influence, will try to deny you even that when you want it.

        “Hey anything to keep the status quo going, the folks that have the audacity to point out what’s really going on are the ones that are told they have an axe to grind and are marginalised .”

        That’s not it at all. The folks who love to point out what’s wrong, never seem to have practical solutions to deal with it. Neale never has anything practical to offer that I can recall. Anyone can complain, and most do. Where is leadership with practical solutions?

        • Stephen mills

          It’s called the civilising of civilisation that’s how we get there. The point of Neales call to oneness is a practical solution as it’s self serving . But it has to come from a raising of consciousness and there are now so many people ,authors,books,films the internet that contributes in distributing information that is having an effect . The birthing of humanity into its adolescence is a dangerous time as all births are .That seems to be where we are at the moment in our evolutionary process.

          Al Gore does promote science ! He also educate folks .Advanced technology with advanced thinking has to be the way forward . You can’t have advanced technology without the thought to use it wisely.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I find it difficult to be educated or influenced by a hypocrite. Al Gore, in my view, is more interested in Al Gore, than in our environment, but if he influences some people to take an interest, then good for him. He probably produces more carbon in a day than I do in a year.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Welcome new contributor. I’m the token agnostic/atheist in the group, so I’ll disagree with you on the existence of god and an afterlife, but I fully agree with your point about doom and gloom. We do not spend much time here looking at what we have accomplished. We are generally painted a bleak picture and then it is suggested that if we want to be saved from this doom and gloom, we must change our beliefs to someone else’s beliefs, in particular, Neales.

      I appreciate your discussion about immigration. Businesses can’t win. If they don’t hire immigrants then they are abusing the third world and denying them a right to a better life. If they do hire immigrants, then they are hurting the people in their country and taking away the life they worked to gain. It’s not an easy position to be in. Over the course of human history, population migrations have occurred again and again, and this seems to still be playing out, particularly as religious theocracies overpopulate and have no economic growth to support the population. They have to go somewhere, so they go where the grass is greener. It has always been this way. Historically, this process has not been managed, and has turned into a free for all of invasion and conquest. Today, hopefully, we can manage the process a little better.

      • Craig

        Seasonal workers was a wonderful concept it kept us meeting new people learning new cultures… Society won in general. What Jean says and I agree with is this long term semi permanent foreigners that cripple the 1st world population…

  • Patrick Gannon

    ” it is clear that our species is headed in the wrong direction on virtually every front.”

    If anyone read Neale’s weekly newsletter today about how there is no right or wrong, good or bad, and that we should not judge things as such….. please put this in perspective for me.

    • Jean_Sillard

      With my understanding of CWG books, i would say that there is ‘right and wrong’ but not good and bad. You can go to a wrong direction, depending of what you want. If you want to go to the South pole and you go north, of course you are going in the wrong direction :-). If you want to experience joy and peace, and you are treating others with no respect, you are going also to the wrong direction.
      But there is no bad and god, as these are relative values, which are very subjective and depend also on cultural values. These values are changing all the time. So there is no good and bad in the absolute.

      • Patrick Gannon

        In his weekly newsletter, he said: “Now the true Master blesses all of this, she does not condemn it. And in so doing, the true Master transforms it, for the impact of his blessing energy shifts the energy of the condition itself. That is why blessing, and never condemning, is the greatest spiritual secret. It is why all Masters have said, each in their own way and their own words, “judge not, and neither condemn. For that which you judge, judges you, and that which you condemn, condemns you, and that which you bless, blesses you.”

        Is going in the wrong direction, “good?” Isn’t suggesting that we are going in the wrong direction a judgement?

        • Craig

          Good question Patrick.

        • Jean_Sillard

          If a person goes to left and he says he wants to go right, i see no judgment if you tell him that he goes to the wrong direction. We can tell the same if a person wants peace and joy and considers to be separated from other human beings.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “From the effects of global warming (Harvey is clearly one of them) to the threat of nuclear catastrophe (the standoff between North Korea and the rest of the world), from the global economic uncertainties created by Brexit and other spreading tribal nationalistic tendencies to the global migration crisis created by millions of refugees fleeing war-torn and terrorist-dominated countries, from the deadly fallout of religious fanaticism to the social fallout of racist fanaticism, it is clear that our species is headed in the wrong direction on virtually every front.”

            These are all judgment statements. Harvey is not “clearly” a product of global warming. Harvey is a weather event, not a climatic event. The strength of the storm “may” have been influenced by climate change, but that is not “clear” from a scientific standpoint, as best I can tell. Neale is making a judgement based on imcomplete information.

            He goes on to make other judgment calls. There might be others who disagree with his judgement. There might be those who think wiping out N. Korea is just what we need to put an end to a rogue nation that seemingly has nothing of value to offer the rest of the world. Whether Brexit is good or bad is a judgment call. It’s too soon to tell. The English were afraid of losing their identity as they were overrun by immigrants, and their knee-jerk reaction seems to be regretted by many in the light of day, but whether it’s the right or wrong move, is a judgement call. Neale is judging, after telling us his god says we should not do so.

            He refers to “terrorist dominated” countries, clearly a divisive and emotionally charged judgement. In fact, terrorists don’t dominate that many countries, unless you count all theocracies as terrorist governments. This is a judgement call, and he ends by stating unequivocally that we are headed in the “wrong” direction. That is a judgement, and we can play all the word games we want, but going in the “wrong” direction is the same thing as saying that this is “bad.”

            I don’t necessarily disagree with his judgments; what I have a problem with is writing books in which he claims his god tells him to tell us not to do exactly what he is doing.

            Just a handful of quotes from CwG1:

            “It is the pain you suffer through wrong thinking. Yet even the term “wrong thinking” is a misnomer, because there is no such thing as that which is wrong.”

            “A thing is only right or wrong because you say it is. A thing is not right or wrong intrinsically.”

            ““Rightness” or “wrongness” is not an intrinsic condition, it is a subjective judgment in a personal value system.”

            “There’s nothing “wrong” with anything. “Wrong” is a relative term, indicating the opposite of that which you call “right.” Yet, what is “right”? Can you be truly objective in these matters? Or are “right” and “wrong” simply descriptions overlaid on events and circumstances by you, out of your decision about them?”

            You can search on words like “judge” or “judgement” to find more quotes suggesting that we should not do what Neale is doing – making judgements. I have no problem with making judgments, but it strikes me as a bit hypocritical to say we shouldn’t and then do so repeatedly.

          • Craig

            The measure with which we measure we will be measured. In a short translation from the Greek scripts…
            Be the best you you can be and guess what you’ve outshone all those that keep chasing goals because they are not satisfied by the result they desired…
            Patrick we can only speak from the heart, soul spirit, etc if we have experienced it. All other messages are Cremora discussions they are not inside they are on top…

        • Spiritual_Annie

          As I remember it, CWG explains that right and wrong are relative only. When Neale converses with God, it’s explained that God isn’t judging when the terms are used, except for instances where what we are doing won’t get us to where we say we want to be.

          If, for example, I choose nonviolence and peace, but I don’t make peace with my past, it’s unlikely that I’ll find real inner peace. If I find a blessing in it, and I have, then I’m more likely to get where I desire to be.

          • Patrick Gannon

            That doesn’t change the fact that he is making judgements and proclaiming certain things to be wrong or bad, despite writing a book which disparages such things. He is using his personal judgements to tell us where we want to be – or not be. Even if we agree with his judgments, it raises a credibility issue.

  • Jean_Sillard

    Part of the problem is the relation between science and spirituality. Often people who are interested by science reject spirituality and vice versa. I love both spirituality and science ! ‘Spiritual’ people tend to see only the negative side of science. That’s why they spreading doom and gloom. I love CWG books, but i read also scientific books and i know honest scientists who proposes a natural cause of global warming : the sun. But if you speak about these scientists to a believer of global warming, they are necessarily all corrupt. No discussion is possible.
    I love nature. My most important pleasure in my life is to walk in nature. So, of course i want the nature to be protected ! But that doesn’t mean that when i see news in the main media that i believe everything they are telling us.
    I read also historical books, and you see all the time people who are telling us that the apocalypse is coming. Why ? It’s so easy to impose your power on people when they are afraid. For instance i read a biography of Arthur Weigall on the emperor Nero. It was the period of the first Christians. They really believed that the apocalypse was coming. For them it’s was certain that Jesus would come again very soon and save them. When Rome was burning, they were feeling a lot of joy, as it was for them the first signs of the apocalypse. That’s why i am not impressed when i see people telling us that the apocalypse is coming. That’s doesn’t mean i recognize a lot of people in this world are suffering, but for me global warming is not part of the problem.

    • Patrick Gannon

      I think it depends on how you define spirituality. Being able to experience awe and wonder at the universe, is spiritual. Believing in magical forces that have an impact on us in our natural world is wholly unsupported, and in fact debunked by all we know about physics.

      I’ve heard the hypothesis that the sun is a natural cause of global warming, but it is my understanding that we see no similar changes on other planets. If the sun was heating up, it would affect all the planets, not just us. As I understand it, this has been examined in some detail, and discarded as a likely cause for that reason.

      I agree with your observation that not just people – but religions (including CwG) tell us that an apocalypse is coming, and the solution is to believe whatever they are pitching.

      I disagree that climate change is not a problem. With sea levels rising, there will be more suffering. With melted glaciers, that used to provide fresh water, there will be more suffering. With increasing weather extremes, there will be more suffering. It’s not the core problem – the core problem is overpopulation, and that is slowly correcting itself. Whether science can continue to keep supporting the growth until it flattens and turns down, is the real question.

      • Kristen

        Overpopulation…yip, and in the West as well. Try living in what was a quiet suburb surrounded by cornfields and horses grazing 20 years ago, that is now just another part of a big city with infill housing extended for miles, with a housing shortage so prices have doubled in ten years. Since when is a standard 3 bedroom house worth almost a million dollars, or to rent one $450 a week when the average take home pay is $700 a week? The population growth is generally immigration overflow as what were 3rd world countries get wealth, and leave with that wealth the second they can!
        Its all a vicious cycle where the money that should be staying to help India, China, South Africa, The Phillipines etc is all being taken out and shifted to the West.
        How do you suggest we could stop over population? Do you see high breeding rates in 3rd world countries as the problem? Or the West? Muslims are actually huge breeders, Arabics have incredibly large families by world standards. Or from your view is it the access to medicine and surgery extending life too long? We do have an odd concept of keeping everyone alive as long as possible, many depressed and rotting in rest homes.
        One view of the Law of Natural Selection was from a comedian..Idiots used to kill themselves being idiots or chose to enlist in war..now we save the idiots and they go on to breed more. His view, with lots of f words, was that helicopters especially have done us all a disservice. If stupid people want to get lost in the woods, jump off a bridge, take drugs, drive into a tree, ski down a mountain, jump from a plane, race cars, play with guns, join gangs or take risks…let them kill themselves. I call it death by freewill!
        Im curious as to your personal opinion and what you would personally do if you could?

        • Jethro

          I was just telling my wife, if we remove all the warning labels, stupid will take care of itself.

          • Craig

            Just do it…

          • Jethro

            I’m all for it!! Been saying it for years, it just hasn’t caught on yet.

          • Craig

            Good thing stupidity is not a disability.

          • Kristen

            Has my vote too!

          • Jethro

            Anyone who eats rocks to get over something agrees with this. I knew I had your support!!

        • Patrick Gannon

          I moved to the country when I relocated to Virginia, but in recent years, I’ve lost access to hundreds of acres that have now been developed, so I’m sympathetic. In the US, our population growth is immigration; we aren’t pumping out enough kids to replace ourselves, so immigrants are picking up the slack – legal and otherwise. I’m chuckling about Hurricane Harvey. We don’t have enough unemployed construction workers in the US to rebuild Houston, and Trump wants to put up a wall and block the people from Mexico who can rebuild it. Duh.

          Overpopulation is beginning to take care if itself. I think it was Stephen Mills who posted a video, I’m too busy to go look up right now, that put the overpopulation issue into perspective. I did some additional research and it does seem that population rates are trending down all over the globe – even in many Muslim countries like Malaysia. The real problem area is sub-Saharan Africa where religious influence rules.

          Check out PRB (dot) org. “Today, Iran, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Turkey (all in the MENA region) have completed their demographic transition, reaching total fertility rates (TFR, the average number of children per woman) at or below 2.1 children per woman (“replacement level”). Indonesia and Morocco are almost there as well.”

          There is much more to it. Many of these Muslim countries have young people making up most of the population, so growth will continue to climb, but the rates are coming down.

          Obviously the Church – particularly the Catholic Church, which is maniacally obsessive about all things pertaining to sex, must continue to be challenged at every turn. They throw kerosene on a problem (the poor, whom they insist must have children they cannot care for or face eternal torment), and then claim to be firefighters trying to save them from the problem the Church itself created with its medieval dogma.

          What would I do, if I could? Challenge the Church at every turn. Provide birth control education and supplies. Provide women with micro-loans so they can start small businesses that will let them survive without a man if necessary, so that they are empowered to raise the next generation of men to be civilized. Turn to science for even better solutions for contraception. Redistribute our cast-offs such as old bicycles and cars, to those countries. Vaccinate everyone. Vaccinations reduce population growth because moms have fewer kids when more of them survive.

          I am a huge fan of the Darwin Awards, in which stupid people do stupid things in order to remove themselves from the gene pool.

          • Craig

            No Patrick.
            I do not believe moving the waste is a good choice. My research revealed that moving scrap or recycling is actually more expensive than manufacturing a newer model. Including the usage of critical substances such as water and oxygen. Recycling is not green friendly.
            Maybe we should cut out trends and design shapes and just focus on quality from the beginning. No hit and run trend, produce flawless one standard upmarket for all at one price. And you will not need second hand supplies quick changing fashions… You will have quality. I think 90% of the self made millionaires all say invest in quality not fashion to outgrow your poverty created by purchasing quantity…

          • Patrick Gannon

            I have not studied the economics of moving refurbished goods – or goods that can be refurbished, versus manufacturing new ones – so you may be right; however that means finding the original natural resources for the manufacturing process, and these resources are steadily being depleted. At some point, until we can mine minerals on asteroids, we may have no choice but to recycle.

            If we don’t recycle, then we need to figure out how to turn all that waste back into natural resources – put them back in their original states, to the degree feasible; or do we just stockpile it all, or bury it in the ground?

            I hope that you are wrong about recycling not being green friendly – I guess I will have to research that further, but it would be most disheartening considering the effort I go through to recycle plastic, glass, metal and paper products. It’s a pain in the butt to take it to the transfer station and break it all out. If it’s not economical, I have to wonder why our county (and most others) provide the capability.

            Do you have a source to start with, to research this further?

          • Craig

            Paper, metal, glass excellent to recycle. Plastic and rubber etc. pollutes a lot and uses more natural resources to make reusable… That is the problem.

            I’ve read that we can use the plastics and rubber products to prevent erosion when chipped up or shredded to be used as ground covers. On small scale sounds feasible on large scale no positive record.
            For years guys have been making swings, sandals, garden barriers etc from car tyres now that is eco friendly…
            Problem with old vehicles and mechanical resources are that generally in 7 years time cannot find parts…
            I read of a guy who built his house using sand and plastic bottles. Maybe bags could work just as good.
            I work close with our waste removal company that is why I make the statements as we sit and seek feasible solution which are few and in between. Especially when 60% of our waste ends on dumps as they cannot find means to recycle…

          • Craig

            Well get reference from waste removal company.

          • Kristen

            Yip Ive heard the same as Craig re recycling although havnt read about it for a couple of years. Apparently recycling uses huge amounts of water and in the US most sits on barges off third world countries where they send it to be recycled. But in saying that here its basically compulsary. We have two wheelie bins, one for glass, plastics, paper and metals thats all recycled in NZ but uses lots of water, that we have. Our other bin holds maybe 1.5 rubbish sacks, and thats all we are allowed. Both collected from our gate…my household rubbish for a family of 4 is down to half a rubbish bag, as is work.
            I think upcycling is the way to go, its becoming huge here. I sold some doors off an antique wardrobe that i perferred open as shelves. I got $20 each for them, flimsy things, but the artist was turning them into coffee tables that would sell for hundreds. CwG stated dont recycle, reuse. Book 1 I think, and probably ahead of its times. 2nd hand and op shops here do a roaring trade as well, preloved clothes are deemed as ‘cool’ in the ‘cool’ areas.
            BUT in saying that, Im sure our tips are full, a car boot load is around $45 I think, theyre expensive, so people just get in a skip every few years…..probably defeats the purpose completely of trying to be green!
            Seen the square beer bottles Heineken made in the 70s to reuse as bricks? Perhaps time for a comeback?

      • Jean_Sillard

        I go often in nature, and of course i see changes. Climate skeptics don’t deny that there is a climate change. It’s the contrary. They are just telling us that climate has always changed. Climate change is natural. They are a lot of scientific researches which show that the current climate change is nothing special. For instance i can give you dozens of researches, on all continents, which shows that the middle age was hotter than today. Of course climate alarmists will not take into account these researches, as they have a political agenda. They prefer to show Al Gore movie which tells us that before the climate was not changing.
        After the middle age, we had a period called the ‘Little ice age’, which was a little bit colder, with a very chaotic weather. In France under Louis XIV, they had very bad very weather and harvests and a lot of people died of starvation.
        Human being is not changing. He was always afraid of death and natural catastrophes. In order to decrease his fear, he tries to control the world with rituals and magical thinking. Before he had to please Gods. If they were happy, the weather and the harvest would be good. If the gods were angry, human beings would be punished with very bad weather. As we live in our Judeo-Christian world, people still feel guilty, and people are still manipulated with fear. Before it was with priests, now it’s environmentalists.

        • Stephen mills

          Jean we are all environmentalist because without a stable environment humans will not be able to exist and evolve . It’s like your body, get a temperature of 38/39 and you get a fever go above 40 and you could be in trouble .The planet is the same… go a few degrees and changes happen go a few more degrees it changes everything .Google the Permian Mass Extintion event .This is science ,off course the climate changes but too much change in a very short period of time as in the last 40-50 years that’s what we are talking about.

          95% of scientist believe that humans are altering the climate in negative ways that will have consequences for us all. These are some of the finest minds on the planet . I like life and wish to preserve it so life will be able to thrive for our children and their children’s children. This is called taking responsibility .

          • Patrick Gannon

            A 1991 poll of members of the National Academy of Sciences found that only four percent believed in ESP.

            Why do scientists get credibility when they espouse something one already believes – like climate change, but they get no credibility, when they debunk psi and other supernatural phenomenon? We pick and choose what we want to believe from science, just like we pick and choose bible passages to support whatever we already believe.

          • Craig

            Yep, using what is front of our eyes not that which is between the ears… System 1 people. Let’s find a way to help create system 2 thinking people…

        • Patrick Gannon

          In the Middle Ages, Europe and the North Atlantic were warmer due to increased solar radiation and low volcanic activity (which blocks sunlight). At the same time, there were other parts of the globe that were cooler than normal. Averaging the whole globe, the climate was not warmer in the Middle Ages. This is all very easy to research.

          During the period 1645–1715, in the middle of the Little Ice Age, there was a period of low solar activity known as the Maunder Minimum which accounts for the little ice age, after the warming period.

          What’s going on now, is very different. Averaging temps around the world, it’s clear that the temperatures are rising steadily and began doing so when we began pumping carbon into the air.

          Climatologists do take these things into effect. My dad was one of these scientists, so I know your assertion about having a political agenda is utter nonsense, and it’s irresponsible to make such claims without providing evidence for it. I agree with some of your last paragraph, but I don’t know anyone who treats environmentalists as priests.

          • Kristen

            You know whats odd…our Summers and Winters have been getting colder. This winter not so much, but only due to 5 months of rain. Probably just because Antartica is a bit nuts now so with climate change we’re seeing cooling not warming.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Indeed. Most people are too localized in their observations. What matters is the average of the whole globe. It’s like a person – you can have a temperature that is a couple degrees above normal and be rather sick, while your extremities feel cold. The planet as a whole is affected, but local conditions may react with colder temps. If Antarctica is lowering the temp of the ocean close to you, as it melts, that would presumably make your climate colder, even though the entire planet had to warm in order to melt the ice in the first place.

          • Craig

            I understand that ever 250 or is it 2500 years the climate changes and deserts become rainforests and visa versa. It is all part of self sustaining. Why have scientist’s not worked on this possibility to investigate and explain what we experience today… And better how to prepare for the adaptation…

  • Jethro

    It can’t wait any longer, the time has come for us to make a decision.
    Who on this blog would you kill, allow to starve to death, wish for physical discomfort or any kind of harm, for their beliefs?

    I would like to believe that every person here has achieved the ability to care for each and every person here in one way or another even if there has been a disagreement. Is the disagreements cause for harm? I don’t think so. I believe everyone here would go out of their way to help anyone in need and we wouldn’t talk to them about spiritual beliefs first. That in itself shows the true spiritual core beliefs of everyone. We as a species are more apt to go out of our way to help someone in trouble than to be violent. Violence needs a coward to lead it, with salesmanship to recruit, and a made up cause. Kindness merely needs someone in need, kindness requires no sales or recruiting, its completely voluntary and in some cases requires no words. Kindness comes from a place within us that we are born with, a need to support and help each other. Kindness comes from bravery, no fear of losing something. Violence comes from fear of loss, false ideas, and thoughts that have been accumulated through unfortunate experiences, we had to learn it. Which is why we have defense courses and not kindness courses. Kindness is natural, violence is learned.
    There is one exception, Kindness becomes violent when violence is necessary to defeat violence. This is where the confusion begins. I think the good and bad in the violent acts would be that one enjoys it and the other wishes for it to stop, still so, violence persists in our world.
    The last act of hatred/violence on earth would have to die from natural causes for violence to be abolished, kindness and forgiveness would need to take its place.

    • Craig

      Jeremiah 29: 5-7 in my own words…
      Be part, play your part, plant your own crop and contribute seems to be the answer. Recorded millenniums’ ago.
      We got lazy and now we are experiencing the consequences of the imbalance we created.
      Maybe we deserve where we are and what we are experiencing.
      No God or devil caused this. Global warming is because we did not plant and contribute…

      • Jethro

        Or contributed against our natural knowledge. A decision we have made without enough knowledge. Everyone wants life to be easy. Easier than what? We don’t want to die and fight it knowing it’s inevitable. We have been told change is necessary in all things, why?
        Maybe if everyone was still growing a crop and tending to it, there would be less attention given to our neighbors crops. We would spend less time telling someone else how to grow one.
        No, it was not a devil or a God in a biblical sense that created all of this. The seven deadly sins have proven to be quite deadly indeed!
        I don’t think I’ll say deserve, reaping what we sew, yes.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Being Spiritual doesn’t mean that we can avoid cause and effect for things that began before starting to pay attention and being our own cause for the effects we desire. There may be consequences for some of my actions that will last until I pass over. Even those, though, I can acknowledge and choose the perspective with which I view them. Not as punishment, not as suffering, but simply effects.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Yes, Neale has stated that our choices have consequences and they do. Those choices and consequences conduct the happenings in our life now or later. Our inability to choose also carries consequences, like our dirty water effecting our bodies. We or Our, can be ourselves or the planet. So when Neale says We choose our future outcomes, it applies to both. Contaminated water or cigarettes, personal action and world action. WE choose to have that. There is no need to be angry at what has been allowed, though it may require anger to stop smoking and to stop polluting our water. Anger doesn’t have to turn to rage.
            Given that we know about so many things that need change and knowing so many people agree and then knowing it’s not changing, this has created suffering and we can expect a little rage now and then.
            Cognitive dissidence has been talked about quite a bit. Money has created Cognitive dissidence within our governments. Saving our planet and the people on it would require making money less important, they just can’t do it knowing the benefits. Sounds like a contemplative drug addict to me.

    • Kristen

      Good points, and I think thats why every thread ends up in chaos, war and off topic, we all know these things no matter our own different beliefs. The core of everything is the same…do no harm and be kind to others.
      Feel free to join in the latest off topic subjects: healthy drink recipe exchanges, male and female differences, dietary advice, eye problems, herb gardening and now trading…Raphael wants to trade an old couch for a goat or an old mule if there are any takers? Or maybe someone has a spare goat to sleep on the couch?
      Perhaps we might be able to solve these little problems, since we’re all already focussed on trying to make the world a better place.
      xx

      • Jethro

        The chaos is friendship in action. The world is now a better place for it.

        • Kristen

          Exactly…which is the frustrating bit. Everyone on this planet is different, but each person potentially a friend we havnt met, theres no need for arguments.
          K

          • Jethro

            Certainly no need for wars. There was a time we could travel and make friends. Governments and T.V. screwed that up.

          • Kristen

            Im so old school I prefer my neighbours as friends. I live on a cul de sac with about 18 houses, near the end, my best friend is straight across the road and we see each other every day! We even borrow a cup of of sugar and pop out on a Sunday to get our morning coffee together. Our most exciting conversations are all the things we screw up, washing, hedgehogs and our cats, mine are always at her house! Its 1960 in my world! A 1960s sit com, its hilarious!

          • Jethro

            That’s not old school, it’s the right way to do it. We SHOULD be more involved with our community than places outside of where we would ever even drive to. I’m actually against social media… the media altogether most of the time. A long distance call SHOULD cost more. Nobody under 21 should be allowed to carry a cell phone, and it should be against the law to advertise on the internet. The internet should be an educational device and I don’t mean sex education. Maybe I’m the wrong person to decide if your old school or not. I would give up cars happily and slow this world back down 1880 lol.

          • Kristen

            Ill choose 1910 ish…I like sanitation, plumbing and electricity thanks, but yip to everything else.
            I agree re the internet but id go information, music and monitered threads like this. No ads, photos, selling, videos, social networking or forums with smut, swearing etc. Just something boring for boring adults like us and kids homework!
            Heard from Annie? Patrick said shes somewhere called Largo.

          • Jethro

            I have a blue print for a house from 1919, back when they were “blue”. Plumbing was in it, but outhouses existed into the 60’s in some places here. 1910 in this place would’ve been like 1880. No sanitation, everything was burned except tin cans and jars. Outhouses were still the toilet, hand pump wells still the source for water and WWI was 4 years away. Of course every timeline has something to complain about LOL.
            Nothing boring about not being able to see or hear things we don’t want to see in the streets where we live. We shouldn’t want to see what we guard our children from anyway.
            Homework kept my kids involved with school more hours than I worked. I find something wrong with that.
            My contact with Annie is here only. I have no idea how she’s doing, just hope she and her neighbors will stay safe. She’s in the same time zone as I am but a 12 to 14 hour drive south, Pat is 1 hour ahead and about the same distance to the east, maybe closer.

          • Craig

            This sounds like the lifestyle I desire…

          • Jethro

            Outhouses and well pumps? I will be installing both soon. Ice storms shut a city down for weeks at a time around hear. Sewers too! My living room and garage have a gas stove and a wood stove. I keep kerosene heaters but all resources become scarce when Ice storms hit. Just picked up a well pump with a motor and a hand crank. It’s for the garden but will serve us in the case we lose the water tower. Happens more than people think.

          • Craig

            Smart thinking

          • Patrick Gannon

            Been there, done that. Hard to say whether losing power for a week is worse in the winter – where you can huddle around the wood stove to stay warm, or worse in the summer, where you can’t do anything at all to get away from the heat and humidity.

            I put a solar panel down by a small pond on my property and it’s connected to a long spool of electrical cable with a DC pump at the end. I leave the pump in the pond with a hose attached that just sprays the water back in pond, moving the water around and aerating it as long as the sun shines. However, within reach of the wire are my shallow well that I use for drinking water, and a deep well that I use to water the grass, etc. (lots of iron). I can soak it briefly in Clorox to sanitize it, and then run the cable to drop the pump down either well and get fresh water during daylight hours. I can disconnect the terminals to the pump and run the cable over to my 5th wheel camper to charge the battery and run DC lights, fresh water pump, etc. – not enough juice to run the AC though.

            You don’t need no steenking hand crank! Go solar!

          • Jethro

            Lol, the hand crank is a novelty item, I have a generator that will run my entire property as long as I can obtain unleaded fuel. I told my wife I wanted to set this house up to work as if it were 1880. Doesn’t mean I intend to live that way on purpose. I actually had to explain that to her. I can be comfortable in the winter, thinking of no A/C makes me cringe.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Go back to bed, grandpa! LOL

            You can’t stop progress, so don’t waste time wishing you could.

            Why should a long distance call cost more? We have the technology using VoIP to make calls around the world for free, if you call another VoIP phone. This enables businesses to communicate with their branches or clients or suppliers, it allows friends and families to stay in touch. Why would you want to limit communication – the most essential thing we have as a society? If you want to make a conversation “global” as suggested by this blog title, doesn’t reducing the cost of communication factor into that?

            We grew up with pens and pencils in our pocket protectors, but our kids are growing up with computers in their pocket protectors. They have tools that give them the ability to do far more, learn more, communicate more, experience more, that we ever could. I envy the advantage they have.

            Why should advertising be illegal? If you make that illegal, who is going to pay for the infrastructure and the content? The alternative is higher taxes or no internet. Some of the annoying ways in which advertising is presented, is worthy of discussion, but eliminating advertising itself makes no sense to me. I occasionally get great ideas and buy things as a result of advertising. Sites that force me to go through countless ads in order to read content, lose me as a reader, and the loss of readership will affect how they do their ads. The market will correct itself. I’ve seen publications such as IFL Science, that purported to be scientific, publish woo crap, and get castigated for it by readers, such that they became more careful of what they were publishing.

            Have fun back in 1880. Think of me sitting in my comfortable bathroom on my flush toilet with indoor plumbing, as the old rickety outhouse with all the wasp nests in the ceiling and spiders under the seat, roasts you like a pig in the heat of the summer, and freezes you like a popsicle in the midst of winter. Make sure you have your annual Sears catalog to use as toilet paper! Yeah, enjoy! LOL.

            Oops – I just learned that Sears didn’t start sending catalogs till 1893. I guess it’s a crusty corncob for you, buddy!

          • Jethro

            Crusty corn cobs, toilet paper, Sears catalog… Still need a good detergent to clean our kids underwear, of course the washing machine makes that easier and we can dry them in the microwave if the dryer is busted. I’ve seen some indoor plumbing I would run a stick around the seat before setting down! My father wouldn’t put heat in the shop toilet because he didn’t want people to go in there and, as he put it, hibernate. Yes I agree some of the things we have make life easier. Just the plumbing code/laws alone are a must considering how many people died from improper plumbing back then. 3000 people died due to a drain/sewage and drinking water being installed in a hole at a train station, 300 died from a dripping toilet pipe over a fruit stand.
            It’s the abuse of modern convenience that I’m thinking about. All the electronics in our kids lives are creating ignorance not intelligence. The annoying ways in which advertising is presented and the false statements about the products is my point. Snake oil from what period? Same thing. We haven’t evolved entirely, just lying about new products. There are many great and useful things, they’re being abused so that we may be lazy.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I never tried drying clothes in a microwave… Hmm. Usually hang them outside if the dryer breaks.

            I’m going to challenge the concern in your statement, ” All the electronics in our kids lives are creating ignorance not intelligence.”

            I had this concern for a while, but with a little help, I thought it through. Kids today don’t learn as many facts as we did, and our parents probably learned more facts, or information, than us. What has changed is that we now have all the facts at our fingertips. Intelligence is no longer measured by how many facts you can remember, it’s measured by how quickly and efficiently you can find what you need to know. Our kids are learning how to search for information, use it, and move on. Those who do this best are the more intelligent. Given that the amount of information we produce has well exceeded the ability of mere humans to absorb, turning our intelligence to ways of managing and obtaining that information efficiently and accurately, is the next step in intelligence. It’s a good thing, otherwise the only option is to become so immersed in facts and information that you can’t process any of it or use it in meaningful ways – you’re drowning in facts and information – the system breaks down due to overload. Evolving evolution to find information rather than remember it, is an example of top-down evolution. It’s pretty cool.

            As for fake advertising, there’s no reason that Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) should be eliminated just because there’s another medium available to part fools from their money.

          • Jethro

            If our children are using technology in that fashion, my hats off to them. If the Kids are just cheating their brains, and most of them are, they will be spoiled to getting the answers so easily, but it may work out who knows. I encourage people to use the same technology all the time. When I was in the 3rd grade and took one of the first affordable calculators to school, I was chastised for it. Just for everyone to see, the teacher called several students to the front of the class and they battled the calculator. the calculator and young eye hand coordination lost to the memories of the students. I have to agree with the teacher though, it’s a useful tool but there are some things you must learn before the tool can be totally useful. In high school I was assigned to a class on how to use a calculator, I’m still not sure if I should be insulted or not. During a course in basic electronic repair for IBM computers, I built a calculator. It’s strange to think about because basic programing in MS-DOS was part of the class and windows had not made an appearance. that was a couple days ago. I became a plumber instead, but I knew how to fix my own television and did on a couple occasions.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I learned MS-DOS and even a little UNIX, back in the day. Thanks to advances in technology, we don’t need to know that stuff in order to take full advantage of the tool. I hate to show my age, but I learned how to use a slide rule in high school, and my first computer program was submitted on punch cards.

          • Jethro

            Punch cards? Wow. I have found file boxes with those things but never had the pleasure of seeing them in action. I think I have taken tests in school designed for computer read out in which we punched a hole so to speak.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I learned DOS before it was called MS-DOS, as well as Unix, Basic and Basic-A. My first work computer was an IBM 1120, and I keypunched faster than anyone else in the Tech area. I once froze up a centralized word processing system from my terminal when I typed faster than 120wpm, the software’s limit. It left a word on my screen hanging over the margin and, because the software resided in the mainframe, the whole thing locked up.

            Calculators? I learned to do my accounting on a 10-key adding machine. And I learned to type on a manual typewriter. Anyone remember mag cards? Floppy disks that were… well… floppy? Reel-to-reel tape recorders? Memorizing math theorems? (And yes to the slide rule, too.)

            Yeah, I’m older, but I manage to keep up. Learning differently, but still learning.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thanks for the memories. My path was data communications, rather than data processing, but we worked with the same technologies.

            You probably remember TWX and Telex and their little paper tapes. I sold early fax machines where they burned the surface of specially treated paper in order to make the image. I sold the first digital Fax machine to Disney so they could communicate between FL and CA. I recall that it cost something like $12,000 for each end. Surfing the technology wave has been a great ride.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I would add that creativity and inspiration also play a role alongside intelligence. Look at all the different ways people are creating to mine that information. It’s not all linear thinking anymore. Mind maps have become as popular as organizational charts, once one moves away from science and mathematics. Being able to think creatively and leaving room for inspiration may well be what gives one idea an advantage over another.

          • Craig

            Have you tried coarse salt to wash with and vinegar to rise out… No germs survive.

          • Jethro

            I tried it but it hurt so I went back to toilet paper.

          • Jethro

            I tried it, but it was painful, so I went back to toilet paper.

          • Craig

            Lol
            I was referring to washing laundry…

          • Jethro

            I know… I couldn’t resist the humor though.

          • Craig

            Well done we need to lighten up to enjoy the moment.

          • Craig

            Heard of VoIP and Skype but never got to use these even wish I could get rid of my cellphone. Am too easy to connect with I think Kristen’s lifestyle is even too close. Three hectares apart on all sides that is life… Just too far to walk over for a no sense making chat. But close enough to get together to discuss things of importance for all neighbours.
            Unfortunately my lifestyle requires that I am contacted in emergencies and I live 1 hours drive away from my place of work… Again Patrick what is the secret to be your own boss?

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Again Patrick what is the secret to be your own boss?”

            LOL. Well first you have to get laid off in the middle of the economic downturn after 9/11 when the telecom industry collapsed. Job opportunities were very poor since everyone else was getting laid off too! Next you have to have enough savings to live on until you begin to generate enough business to pay the bills, and/or have a spouse or partner to help cover the costs. I burned through a lot of savings, as my spouse did not make a lot of money. After that, it’s a little innovation and some persistence and hard work.

            Mostly you have to learn to manage anxiety until you reach an acceptable level of success. I never got back to where I was when I was working for other companies, but I like working for me, even if I don’t make as much. It would be hard to give up the freedom. I miss not having lunches and social events with other business people, but not as much as I’d miss walking across the hallway in a T-shirt to go to work! I used to get lots of calls from head-hunters (employment recruiters) because I was a successful rep in a high tech business, but all that ended when the economy had a brief collapse back after 9/11. By the time the headhunters started calling again, I had crossed that line and was no longer eating up savings to pay the bills. I went to a couple interviews, but never went back. I used to change companies every few years, but I incorporated this business in 2003 and so far, I’m still managing to pay the bills.

          • Craig

            Well done.
            I think my return will be…
            Derdago, derdago forti loris ina row, suma loris suma trux fulaf geezendux.
            And will need to admit… When de money she goes out the door de love she takes a big knock.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Google Translate won’t translate that for me….

          • Craig

            Patrick sorry will not get, got the joke of a Spanish slang from an FBI friend.

            There they go, there they go, forty lories in a row. Some are lories some are trucks full of sheep and geese and ducks.

            Just saying if I had to hung on like you did to survive all my earthly possessions would also have been lost.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I can’t believe I missed that. I instinctively cut/pasted that to Google Translate, because I do that on a regular basis in my business. I never thought to speak it phonetically. Google Translate didn’t know what to make of it.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      More Jethro wisdom. It just goes to prove that, even in a thread that gets veered off into smoothie recipes and bar jokes and old memories, wisdom can be found anywhere—if one chooses to see it.

      I believe we can unlearn violence. I have. (Well, except for once in a while when my mouth gets me in trouble.) We can example nonviolence for others, and teach it to our children and grandchildren.

      We can choose to end violence, rather than waiting for it to die a natural death. That’s part of what I focus on when I visualize, and part of what I mean by “conscious evolution.” We can consciously choose the way we walk through the world, affecting others with our kindness, generosity, compassion and unconditional love.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • Jethro

        When a community comes together at a gathering to address specific things, rarely is the topic of the meeting the only topic. Everyone comes to order, speaks their mind for a short time and then they visit. Sharing recipes, telling jokes, and sharing old memories among other things. This is not chaos as Kristen has offered, it’s friendship. Friendship is a heavy move against violence.
        “We can example nonviolence for others, and teach it to our children and grandchildren.” That’s a wonderful idea and the best possible answer for our future. That’s my opinion at the moment anyway.

      • Kristen

        Hi Annie,
        Youll be asleep now, but I see a major hurricane Irma is heading to Florida. Hope you arent in its path although obviously will be more crap weather even if not.
        Thoughts and love are with you and Biscuit and may your little home that you love be ok as well.
        xx

        • Patrick Gannon

          Ditto on this. I lived quite close to where Annie lives now in Largo. I was in Indian Rocks Beach on the coast, and was evacuated and stayed with friends in Largo as a hurricane, whose name now eludes me, passed just offshore creating all sorts of havoc on the beach, as foundations washed out all up and down the coast, causing buildings to collapse. The waters came up to my townhouse, but didn’t go in.

          If the hurricane squeaks past the FL Keys, and goes into the gulf, it will probably swing straight through FL, going northeast – but too soon to say where it might go ashore. Start your preparations.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Speaking of hurricanes – what are your thoughts on this? According to experts such as Ben Livingston, who worked with key meteorologists my dad also worked with, we have the ability to use cloud seeding to significantly reduce the power of large storms.

            The USG, according to Ben, refuses to use cloud seeding to modify hurricanes for two reasons: 1) liability and 2) destruction is good for the economy.

            Should we modify the weather to reduce the impact of storms like Irma, or should we not mess around with mother nature, and let her tear us up as she pleases?

            Livingston wants to know why nobody has sued the govt yet, for failing to protect their lives and property. Interesting question.

            My dad would never go into a lot of detail about what we can do with weather modification because he worked on it in the military and his work was all classified. Even though Proj Popeye was eventually de-classified, he always said that the govt never notified him that he was free to talk about it – so he wouldn’t go into much detail. He did tell me though that it didn’t matter how many bombs we dropped or how much Agent Orange we dropped on the Ho Chi Minh trail – the only thing that slowed the flow of soldiers and equipment from N. Vietnam was the rain, when it washed out all the roads, and according to Livingston, we were pretty successful doing so.

            Does it make sense to discuss as a society, whether we should use this technology to prevent such severe damage from storms like Harvey and Irma?

          • Jethro

            Research HAARP

          • Kristen

            Scary shit…lots believe the quakes in Christchurch New Zealand may have been HAARP, just too many flukes. Lots of Israelis there plus they were the first search teams to arrive, on a plane within hours, a doctors conference, our one medically equipped navy ship was right there and we ae constantly embroiled in dramas with tne US over gas and oil drilling.
            Haiti was a week after the US did mock senarios on what would happen if a quake hit around Haiti, plus the oil spill wherever it was off the US was right where some weather patterns loop.
            Who knows? Scary if people do have tne means for ‘natural disaster wars’.
            K

          • Jethro

            Yes it is scary. Shortly after hearing about it and reading some, I noticed we were having super destructive storms. Some people believe its being used for that. But some people believed the world would end in 2012. Something to think about though.

          • Kristen

            Yip, although the Mayan prophecies were about world change starting in Dec 2012, the end of ghe world as we knew it. I think they were right and there were huge changes starting then. In scriptures its the Sun being blackened, which in Kabbalah the Sun is balance, harmony, perfection, beauty, synchronicity, relationships and pretty much most positive things. I noticed a change in my world, everything sort of turned to custard for no reason and its impossible to get it back. The righteous Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Raphael are usually in that position and the Earth corresponding one. I do think they left…I note judgements etc in all teachings all start with the Sun darkening. Climate Change did start to hit then, look back.
            Im not completely convinced of what but there was definately some shift in Dec 2012.
            Yip Ive heard HAARP can be used for weather as well, but ignore it all. I would hate to wrongly accuse anyone of anything, and struggle with the very concept but I guess one day we’ll know the truth.

          • Jethro

            I can relate to your statement concerning 1979. I guess changes have been occurring since I can remember, whether it be family relationships, the weather, or the attitudes of the people in public. Lots of changes since 1880 : )
            Your definition of the sun being blackened is a good one. Things considered being of light getting dark. I personally have noticed a brighter day since 2009 when I began to stop abusing alcohol. The darkness was a product of my mind. The darkness that still exists is coming from commercially produced anything. Ever study what was in your flour? The people really should go back to doing things the old way. I stopped yesterday at a one woman diner and had a hamburger with everything on it. I waited a little longer for it but it was a real hamburger like I would have fixed at home (I grind my own meat). The lettuce was green and crisp, fresh onion, red tomato.. Not perfect, but had McDonald’s and Burger king beat by a long shot, and I think it was cheaper! The person behind the counter could hold a conversation as well, she’s our age. The shift of 2012 could’ve have been from the hype behind it. I really think people were excited that things might end, then, Dang! Nothing happens. They gave up. People were not seeing signs, they were believing in assumptions, that’s the wrong way to do it. Seeing signs gives chance for change. The pot shows signs of boiling over, you turn the heat down.
            I brought up HAARP because of the seeding conversation and controlling the weather. It’s possible these storms are made stronger by man intentionally, so why try to weaken them. Like Pat says, catastrophe is good for the economy. VERY, VERY, SAD!!!

          • Patrick Gannon

            The world did change in 2012.

            On the fourth of July, 2012, all the gods died. That was the day that scientists announced the discovery of the Higgs Boson, completing the standard model/core theory of physics, which confirms that there are no additional forces acting upon the particles in our natural world, beyond those we know about. There may be other particles and forces, but they are too weak, or too small to interact with the stuff that we are made of.

            This means that if there are gods, souls, essential essences, consciousness or any other magical woo forces, they have no impact here. We can and should ignore them and get on with living our lives in light of the new information, just as in Galileo’s time they had to get on with living their lives with the understanding that we were not the center of the universe as our religions had claimed.

            This news, however, is much more profound and will take longer to be accepted. It’s more complicated ,and most people are scientifically illiterate, so we have to find ways to put it in terms laymen can understand. That’s not so easy, as I have learned here.

            The gods died, but the news hasn’t gotten out yet.

          • Jethro

            “beyond those we know about. There may be other particles and forces, but they are too weak, or too small to interact with the stuff that we are made of.”
            There may be other particles and forces beyond our ability to test, beyond those we know about.
            Just messin with you LOL.

          • Patrick Gannon

            There are surely other particles and forces that we have not yet discovered. I read about some new particles discovered just a week or so ago. They have no impact on us. Billions of neutrinos are flowing through you right now, and they don’t do a thing to you. We’d like to capture more neutrinos – very difficult.

            Also you should say, “current ability to test.” We’d like to ramp up the power on the LHC to try and find the graviton, but when they first turned it on, it blew up, leading to a delay of a year or more to fix it, so they got nervous about bringing it up to the full power it was designed for, after repairing it. Even at partial power – it found the Higgs boson, which is what they really wanted. They had to explain how particles get mass, as that was the last open question for the standard model, and how the particles in our natural world work.

            I know that few here are motivated to read science books, but I found this YouTube video of Sean Carroll providing an overview. He is a very good presenter, and his books are very similar in style to his speaking. Listen for a bit…. Google: “Sean Carroll: “The Big Picture” | Talks at Google”

          • Craig

            Patrick, partially I agree with you. But understanding physics. Does not reveal how to make it self sustaining without harming living creatures including mankind… That is still the unanswerable why do things work the way they do. Evolution explains surviving and improving to keep surviving within an environment that is ever changing and beyond the entities control. If you could control it you would not need to evolve.

          • Patrick Gannon

            We have a ways to go before we can fully control our environment, but we have already begun to do so. People who would have died of various diseases 200 years ago, continue to reproduce today.

            I just read an article that talked about whether or not humans are still evolving because we have interfered with biological evolution for humans. It seems that we are still evolving however. It turns out that people who live the longest have the fewest medical conditions in general, and it may be that they contribute to evolution by supporting their grandchildren, after others have passed on, which in turn would protect their genes so they get passed on again. It’s a subtle evolution, but it seems there is evidence that we are still evolving at least to some extent. Old people rule!

          • Craig

            Ney dey old ones rock.

          • Jean_Sillard

            Patrick, you don’t seem to know to science has still a lot to discover. For instance in cosmology, scientists tell us that they know only a few percent of what the universe is made of. 95% of the universe is made of dark matter and energy. But they have no ideas of what are really dark matter and energy, despite their effort. So we should always stay humble.
            Also in the Cern collider, they have found some evidence on the Higgs Boson, but they were expecting to find ‘supersymmetric particles’ and they found nothing. So even if science has improved a lot, we sill know nothing !

          • Patrick Gannon

            I never suggested that science doesn’t have a lot to discover. Since I read science all the time, I am quite aware of that. However we do know some things and we know them in exquisite detail and with extremely high confidence, and these things we know, tell us that there are no god, soul, consciousness or other woo forces that affect the particles in our natural world – which means there is no ESP or telekinesis or any other psi woo, or we’d know it by now.

            The fact that we don’t know what dark matter is yet, confirms that it has no effect on our particles; otherwise we would know what dark matter is, since it’s everywhere. Dark matter does not interact with our matter – known as baryonic matter. We know all the things our particles can do, and we don’t need a magical dark matter/dark energy force to explain any of it.

            That supersymmetric particles have yet to be discovered, has nothing to do with whether unknown forces impact our particles in our natural world. We haven’t found the graviton either, but that makes no difference. We know the effects of gravity on our particles and it’s so minimal that it’s insignificant. Gravity has no impact on when or whether synapses in your brain fire, and neither will any supersymmetric particles that might be discovered.

            Particles we have not discovered either last such incredibly short times before annihilating, or they are so weak or small, like the neutrino, that they have no effect on us. Dark matter is not going to provide a force that supports ESP, according to the standard theory. Finding supersymmetric particles – which are theorized, may require more power than the LHC is currently operating at or able to operate at, and what that means, is that any such particles discovered are not going to affect our particles.

            And it’s ridiculous to say we still know nothing. If you believe that, please discard all your technology, and move to a tent in the woods.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No they were not because of HAARP. That project was used to research the ionosphere with the goal of improving communications. Conspiracy theories abound, however, as is usual in these conspiracy theories, the evidence always falls short, or is “manufactured.” HAARP was blamed for everything from weather modification to earthquakes to zits on teenagers. It’s not part of this discussion, in my view. Cloud seeding is real science, firmly established, well tested and documented. HAARP is the fantasy of paranoid minds.

            Since we can manipulate the weather with cloud seeding, the question is – should we?

          • Craig

            Depending, will it influence natures balance in providing all the electrical recharges hurricanes have on the flora in the region.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I don’t understand the question. I am unaware of any electrical recharges that hurricanes have on the flora of the region. What hurricanes will do the flora of the region is tear it to shreds.

            Hurricanes feed on warm water.

          • Craig

            Lighting and hael feed the earth or rather restore its plant nutritional value…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Spare me. I was afraid to post that video, knowing that the conspiracy theories would come out of the woodwork.

          • Jethro

            A conversation about man controlling the weather should include all the possibilities. Is it as ridiculous as not reducing the impact of a storm due to liability given that the governments will dump a boatload of money into damages anyway.

          • Patrick Gannon

            HAARP is NOT one of those possibilities. Google Washington Post Weather control conspiracy theories: scientifically unjustifiable. That is one of many reputable articles that debunks this nonsense.

            Cloud seeding is real. I know that for a fact, because my dad did it. HAARP has nothing to do with weather modification. Do some research and see for yourself.

          • Kristen

            My stance on anything at all is that Im opposed to all forms of suffering other than consequences for those who cause suffering in the first place, so will always be driven by that.
            Yip, weather events are becoming a HUGE industry, probably more profiteering than war, all profits come at a price…people! Supermarkets, hardware stores, caterers with shelter contracts, camping stores, phone companies and many many contractors must rub their hands together in delight!
            But on the other side are insurance companies paying the price, their profits crash. I know in NZ with a big quake in Christchurch with over 100 dead, our insurance companies were crippled.
            So my view would be that at some point insurance companies will be the buyers of cloud seeding or other technologies, theyre the only ones with the financial gain from doing so.
            Does the US govt have an obligation to protect lives and property? I thought US courts had just ruled that its not their legal responsibility, nor a legal obligation for someone to turn up if you phone 911. On the grounds that its the peoples responsibility to protect themselves and the governments responsibility to protect the right of people to protect themselves, providing ASSISTANCE where possible? If thats right then logically if individuals paid for and used seeding themselves they would have govt support…but the peoples problem not the govt.

          • Patrick Gannon

            An interesting note is that the silver iodide used to seed clouds, can be ingrained with a nuclear signature, such that it can be collected after a storm and the nuclear signature (this has nothing to do with it being radioactive – it’s not radioactive), will identify who used it.

            Interesting comment about whether or not insurance companies might become the ones who start managing the weather. Interesting idea.

          • Craig

            Maybe rebuild eglo two bedroom houses instead after distraction. These seem to survive the toughest weathers and cost virtually nothing. After all a house is but a place to rest…

          • Stephen mills

            Hurricane Irma is the size of France !

          • Kristen

            Scary, and theres another one about a day behind it.

          • Kristen

            Fingers crossed for her. Tell her.

        • Jethro

          As Pat put it, Ditto.
          Thoughts and love are with you and Biscuit and may your little home that you love be ok as well.

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    To me the most important thing I/we can make, is to find our inner peace and make our decisions and action from that state & place of being.

    We can talk endlessly about problem solving (a worthy activity), but unless we have the peace individually, how will we create in collectively?

    We’ve talked years on this blog about the problems & solutions. Where has it gotten us so far? Just asking.

    Now, if we are each coming from a deep place of peace & wisdom, where will that take us?

    In this case, first things first, find that peace, watch other things fall into place.

    • Patrick Gannon

      While we’ve been talking, science has continued to find ways to feed a growing population, discovered new medical cures, improved cancer survival rates, improved efficiency for solar panels, worked to advance knowledge of fusion and other technologies that could solve our energy crisis, conducted research to educate people about what we are doing to our climate, learned more about how our brains work, so that we can make progress towards mental health solutions, developed new scanning technology to look into the inner workings of our brains and bodies, landed rockets on platforms floating at sea or on land, drastically reducing the cost of spaceflight, and putting us on a track to gain access to more resources and to get our genome off of this planet so that it’s backed up or redundant, before the next inevitable extinction event, discovered the Higgs boson and killed all the gods….. Yeah much has been going on while we all talked. No other endeavor in human history has been as successful as the scientific method.

      Turning to science is the decision we should be willing to make!

      • Craig

        Science is good, are there scientists that can provide means to build houses that can retain moderate temperatures and create 10 litres of water per day through condensation to drink…
        That is what we need now I think as that is what brings people in a community a self sustaining life… Fairy tales no the beginning of modern day settlers…

  • Raphael

    There are many ways to be “spiritual”, many paths, some already carved by known traditions, other highly individualistic.

    But as long as none of it causes us to change our lifestyle, and to be, in the process, an example to others, spirituality changes neither us nor the world.

    Why should we change our lifestyles? To understand this, we might have to look around…and face some unpleasant facts about what we are doing to each other, animals, and the entire planet.

    • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

      I’m not sure if anyone truly knows the will of the collective.

      I’d like to think, it’s not to go extinct or even close to that. I would also like to think/believe that our true collective will is to live in peace & prosperity with a clean healthy environment & people.

      I have stated before that on a unconscious or super conscious level we may have choosen to challenge & create this current world chaos only to overcome it to show our superheroish greatest potential as individuals and as a world collective.

      This is not far off since we now have a billionaire James Bond/Batman type like villain called pResident Trump.

      I believe in the power of positive visualization as a very powerful potent component to the equation, one severely underused as well as the LOA.

      These and other spiritual & psychic tools along with science, technology, psychology etc. as well as other components also play a important role.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Please, please, please don’t include “science” with woo like “psychic tools.” There is no such thing as a psychic tool.

        The will of the collective is to pass on its genome. Pretty basic, actually. Perhaps the angle we need to take is to educate people into understanding that passing on our genome may require that we clean up our environment and fix other societal problems.

        If we are to talk about ONEness, let’s put it in terms that are real. We are ONE by virtue of every single one of us sharing the human genome and having a biological connection to all the other species here. Indeed we are ONE in that sense. Perhaps if people understood that connection and what it implies for the future of our species, we might be more aware of the cliff we are apparently headed for. Instead we are told by some religions that we get a second chance, that this is a dress rehearsal for the real thing. We’re told by other religions such as this one, that it doesn’t matter. Nobody dies, nobody is rewarded or punished, we all go back to the Borg, (well, our souls, but not our minds and bodies), so why fight it? Let’s blow the whole thing up and rejoin the Borg!

        Someone who gets it, is Elon Musk who wants to get our genome backed up to additional planets, moons and/or spaceships. There WILL be another extinction level event on earth. They have always happened. If we care at all about ONEness, we should care about the survival of our species, now that we have obtained the technical ability to do something about it.

        • Craig

          Collectively the quickest way to unit is to stop…
          Watch B-movie and see what happens. Until the majority unit to do what they must do… Build house, plant crops and survive from Crop. Not easy but essential to start asap.
          Then we should rather try what the ants did in Bugs Life.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          “We’re told by other religions such as this one, that it doesn’t matter. Nobody dies, nobody is rewarded or punished, we all go back to the Borg, (well, our souls, but not our minds and bodies), so why fight it? Let’s blow the whole thing up and rejoin the Borg!”

          Seriously? First, what Neale writes and talks about is not a religion, but I know you disagree. Much more than that, though, is your misrepresentation. If anything, CWG espouses that everything matters. Each individual’s thoughts, words and deeds matter. Every life, all of life, matters.

          Have you even read, “Home With God”? It doesn’t sound like you have. It proposes that life is eternal, yes, but not that our physical lives don’t matter. They matter so much that Divinity created physicality for a precise and precious purpose—that Divinity, our Souls and ourselves can experience what cannot be experienced without it. Life continues on in a different form where we review our lives and the totality of the effects we’ve had, but without judgement. It’s taken in as information about which we may have been unaware of while in physical form. Only then, with a complete understanding, do we return to and become one with Divinity.

          But, it continues, we choose not to stay in the nonphysical. We joyously return to physical life, here or elsewhere, because the physical provides experience. If you were locked in a library, you could read about many things—different lands, cultures, histories, theories, facts. Wouldn’t you eventually become bored with just reading? Wouldn’t you want to experience some of the things you’ve read about? Same kind of thing. We come back to the physical to gain new experiences.

          No, this isn’t about “returning to the Borg,” as you put it. The Borg is, in your terms, a collective with a singular thought process and goal. One doesn’t generally leave the Borg, but becomes part of it always, with no individuations.

          Physical existence serves a purpose for all our parts—ourselves, our Souls, and Divinity.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            He says, quoting from CwG1 that “there is nothing else to do.” “There is nothing to do but be.” “You are learning nothing here. You have nothing to learn.” “You cannot lose in this battle. You cannot fail.”

            Look these quotes up yourself to confirm that they aren’t taken out of context.

            He tells us there is no reward, no punishment. We get to go be with his god when we die – or at least our souls do, and this god, is love personified – so what’s the holdup? Why not get on with it?

            Yes, I read “Home with God.” It was very similar to Newton’s “Life Between Lives.” I have it on Kindle. I even believed in it once. What you’re describing though, is the desires of some (imaginary) being, force, energy, essential essence – whatever woo term you want to use, that is acting out of its own selfish interest and using my body and mind as tools to do so. It plants a spark of itself (in denial of the laws of physics) called the soul, inside me, so that my mind and body can work to achieve its agenda. I don’t care about its agenda. I don’t care about Neale’s god or your “Divinity,” even if it exists If what makes me, “me” is not going along for the ride.

            The real kicker though, is that there is no more evidence for this god, than any of the other thousands of gods that have been proposed over the course of mankind. Absolutely none. I like the analogy of the borg. I think I’ll stick with it. I’ll agree that one doesn’t leave the borg, but a “collective with a singular thought process” is exactly what your “Divinity” is; right?

  • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

    I posted this yesterday & saw it disappear, only to see for some odd reason that it went way to the bottom. So I’m re posting.

    To me the most important thing I/we can make, is to find our inner peace and
    make our decisions and action from that state & place of being.

    We can talk endlessly about problem solving (a worthy activity), but
    unless we have the peace individually, how will we create in
    collectively?

    We’ve talked years on this blog about the problems & solutions. Where has it gotten us so far? Just asking.

    Now, if we are each coming from a deep place of peace & wisdom, where will that take us?

    In this case, first things first, find that peace, watch other things fall into place.

    That is the decision we should be willing to make.

    • Jethro

      I’ve said it all along, the only thing we truly have the power to change is ourselves. We work on ourselves and everything falls into place in our own lives. We may then set the example for the change we wish to see.

      • http://markoworld.com/ Marko

        Amen brother, amen!

  • Spiritual_Annie

    Hey, y’all!

    Rather than posting individual replies to the news of Hurricane Irma, I thought I’d just do one here.

    The forecasters still aren’t sure which way this thing will go, though they seem to be thinking up the center of Florida, downgrading to a Cat 3 by the time it gets north to my area. There have been no evacuations yet, except in the Keys (islands). I’m landlocked, not coastal, so I at least won’t be dealing with storm surges.

    However, my Case Manager has already called (I was asleep, so just got a voicemail) with two shelters near me. If the winds are strong enough to damage the trailer, of course I’ll go. But they don’t take pets and I will not abandon Biscuit. My neighbor has two dogs, so when he wakes and has had coffee, I’ll ask him about it. But I can practically reach out the window and touch my neighbors, we’re packed in so tight, and mine sits farther back than the ones on either side of me. And the park’s so cheap that all my windows are plexiglass, so there won’t be any shattering.

    When we moved in here, Christie immediately set up a hurricane kit—candles, lighters, matches in a ziploc bag, flashlights, batteries, jugs to hold water (which I’ve filled), first aid supplies, etc. She joked, though, that what “real” Floridians do when a hurricane approaches is run to the store for beer, load up on pot, order pizza and party. No one here’s panicking.

    It just so happened (!) that I have been asleep for the better part of two days, something that I cycle through when my sleep disorder gets me to a place of exhaustion. I went to sleep when Irma’s path was unpredicted and woke to the possibility that it will hit here. I’m not worried about flooding as we’ve had torrential rains and they’ve never even gotten close to my door. Even if they did, the add-on for the trailer sits on the ground with the original trailer higher still.

    I grew up in Missouri, which sits on the edge of Tornado Alley, and we had plenty growing up. I’m used to strong storms. I also used to teach first aid and CPR and volunteered as a rescuer for the Red Cross Disaster Relief for decades, even though I got to the point where I couldn’t fill sandbags but I could still hand out sandwiches. I have a tendency not to panic in a crisis, but then pass out after it’s over and my adrenaline drops.

    I’ll keep posting here so long as I have service. I’m doing the same on Facebook and Twitter. My Wifi and electric may go down, but I have battery backups that can run my phone for days and I do have service for my cell unless the towers go down.

    Thanks for all the caring and concern. I’m truly touched, more than y’all know.

    Much Love and Many Blessings, Always,
    ~Annie

    • Craig

      All the safest wishes for you guys.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Hold on to your bloomers. I have a sister in Miami, two more in the Melbourne area, one in Cape Coral, a mom in St. Augustine, and a sister in Jax. Wave if any of them float by…. !

      I’m hoping by now my sister in Miami is on her way north. Trying to find out.

      • Raphael

        No worries…Rush Limbaugh announced that hurricanes are essentially fake news (hype), promulgated by climate change advocates and leftists to create fear and panic and sabotage Trumps’ agenda.

        Wow…I think we need to outlaw idiocy in America. Unfortunately half of the population will be locked up!

        Seriously, hope your family will be safe!

        • Kristen

          Half?
          I like Jethros idea, remove all packaging and safety warnings then idiots will kill themselves!

          • Raphael

            Saying half, I was trying to be generous…
            Unfortunately, contrary to what Patrick seems to think, evolution is not working, as the less intelligent and less educated always have more children.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Oh, no. I’ve expressed that same concern. It’s not an issue of whether it’s working. Evolution simply is. It has no goal, no good or bad, simply adaptation to an environment based on natural selection. It’s only “good” if you produce surviving offspring and “bad” if you don’t.

            When Neale talks about no right or wrong, no good or bad, he should be talking about evolution.

            Your point is very valid, and a very real concern, however you got one word wrong. You said that the less intelligent and less educated “always” have more children. That is true today, but not in the past. Historically more intelligent people produced more surviving offspring to pass on their genes. They had an advantage – they were more successful, they got better mates, they had more to eat, they provided more opportunities for their offspring to survive and prosper. This evolutionary path explains, in part, the rapid development of our brains as compared with our cousins. but that built-in mechanism is no longer in action – or may not be. Now, the more educated people have fewer kids. Daniel Dennett talked about this in his last book.

            What the outcome will be over the long run is still unclear. You are correct, that today, the half-wits (pardon the snark) are out reproducing the geeks. But the geeks are in control. They run things. They will have the first access to new technology. They may not lose out to the hordes of ignorant masses – they could conceivably subjugate them! Anybody remember Huxley’s “Brave New World”?

            If smart people continue to breed with smart people, even if they produce fewer kids, over time there may be more of a division – a caste system with a thinking class and a working class, and a gulf may open between them, and if it lasts long enough, separate species could emerge. Lots of fodder for science fiction authors.

            I am very concerned about the growing glorification of ignorance, as manifested by the current US administration. People see lines of left and right, liberal and conservative, but what if those lines are drawn up by pro or anti-science lines? New Agers will find themselves on the same side as Trumpers, fundies, conspiracy theorists, religious extremists, etc. .

          • Raphael

            The glorification of ignorance…that about sums it up! There has always been an underlying current of anti-intellectualism in America, but this is over the top…and I do think it comes from authoritarianism…remember, authoritarians (like Trump) like loyal followers, not independent thinkers…and so do the evangelists who voted for him in huge numbers. Authoritarianism and ignorance often go hand in hand. Which comes first? Hard to say but they feed each other…

            However I do not think that the present administration is truly anti-science…they are just against any scientific fact that threatens business and profit (such as any data from the EPA on industrial pollution, climate change, etc). But they will welcome any scientific discovery that enhances business and profit, even if it costs the environment!

            The business of America is business…more that for any other nation, business is king in America, for better and for worse. It is something that everyone in the world seems to know except Americans…everything else here takes second place to business and profit…which is why politics are mostly irrelevant, in my opinion, as both the so-called left and the right serve the same master (and this master is not the people).

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I remember Alex Huxley’s “Brave New World.” There are many storylines, especially in sci-fi, about the purposeful subjugation of part of the species. I also remember Thoreau’s “Walden” and Ayn Rand’s novels. I prefer Thoreau. And Salinger.

            There already is a caste system in America. We just don’t call it that. Instead we use the polite terms of “the 1%,” the upper class, the middle class, the working poor, the lower class and the throw-aways (who people don’t like to talk about, but are part of our caste society as outcasts).

            I’m not sure I believe that having money correlates with intelligence in the way you imply. Yes, intelligence can lead to financial successes, further education and provide access to the best health care—when producing something consumers want during a strong economy when people can afford to pay for their products. But don’t overlook those with intelligence who are among the poor who could be the next Einstein, or the idiot offspring of the rich who would go hungry if they didn’t have cooks and servants—much less the farmer’s who grow and sow their food, nor the grocer who sells it.

            I’m not anti-science. What I am is open-minded. My movement in the world doesn’t revolve around only what science has said is true today as I understand the very next discovery could redefine what we think we know.

            You’re familiar with EEG’s, correct? You know the probes to pick up electrical activity in the brain aren’t actually inside the brain, right? That means the electrical impulses that are being read are at least outside of the skull. So energy from our brains can be detected outside of the brain.

            Who’s to say where that energy stops? Can it be detected from a foot away? Five feet? More? (I don’t have answers yet as this is just coming to me so I haven’t Googled it yet.) Are those electrical impulses, which are produced in the brain, able to affect others? After all, electrical impulses can interact with particles.

            I believe that not just thoughts, but also feelings have energy. fMRI’s prove that emotions change our brain functions, which means they’re having an effect on the particles in our brains. Who’s to say that’s the only thing that emotional energy affects? If our brain’s electrical impulses can be affected, who’s to say where that electrical energy stops and who or what else it affects?

            The spoken word certainly carries all kinds of energy that affects both us and those who hear them. They’re sound waves, but have emotional energy as well. It’s like when someone who is obviously not doing well saying, “I’m fine.” Which matters more—the sound waves of the words, or the emotional energy with which they’re being said? Again, emotions carry electrical energy, and electrical energy can interact with particles.

            Emotional energy can also be attached to our actions. We can tell the difference between someone doing something with resentment or joy, just by how they are carrying themselves. Again, we’re back at the brain producing electrical impulses and the question about if they can affect things outside of our brains (and, of course, our bodies).

            I’m going to have to Google a few things and see what rabbit hole I find myself in.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            When considering evolution, you have to look at the population as a whole. Of course there are idiot kids of smart people and brilliant kids of “intellectually challenged” people, but if you look at the population as a whole, evolving over extended time periods, then the exceptions are averaged out. I can look back at people I knew growing up, and by and large, the smart ones ended up being more successful (depending on how one defines that), and thus their kids more likely to get a good education and a leg up on everyone else, and to be exposed to mates who share similar qualities such as intelligence.

            We have ‘classes.’ I’d agree with that, but not castes, where people are more or less formally identified by what caste they belong to.
            We could get to that point though, if we decide to divide ourselves along intellectual or other lines such as brain vs brawn, which Facebook is full of.

            As for EEG’s, I’m sorry, but this is very strong evidence against your woo, Annie. We can absolutely measure those electromagnetic forces, and we know exactly the rate at which this well-known force dissipates, and we know exactly what impact this force has on our particles – probably more so than any other force of nature. Ask any serious ESP researcher and they will surely agree that electromagnetism is not the force in question. I’d be surprised to hear otherwise.

            For those who care, it’s called the inverse square law. Here’s a good explanation I borrowed from Quora:

            “Imagine you have a point emitter of electromagnetic energy. You have a detector which is 1 cm square and at 1 meter from the emitter it gives a reading of 100. If you move it one meter farther away, the detector would read 25. You have doubled the distance so geometry shows that the height and width of the detector are effectively halved. Move the detector a kilometer away.
            This is a thousand times the distance so the energy hitting the detector is a millionth of what it was at 1 meter.”

            The energy level falls off too quickly to affect anything outside your own body… well, the occasional static shock between friends might qualify since that’s electromagnetism too, and I have probably “levitated” along with a verbal exclamation, but I don’t think this qualifies as the woo you are hoping for.

            I have personal experience with this inverse square law because I put a large network in the factory of a technology company who wanted to make sure that nothing in the network would interfere with their stuff. We had to go around with this special wand we rented, to measure these forces, and they were much stronger than what the human body can produce. It falls off so fast, it’s not a factor. We won the deal!

            The effect that electromagnetism has on our particles is very well understood. It is critical to the core theory., since it’s one of the big four: strong, electromagnetic, weak, and gravitational. Our particles have “states” or “degrees of freedom.” They can only do so many things, like spin and charge. Guess which one electromagnetism affects? Without it, we could not lift up a cold beer. Our understanding of this force and it’s capabilities is among the most well-documented and understood in physics, and if it had a way to move your particles so that you could read minds, levitate, heal tissue or predict the future, we’d know it. ESP researchers are looking for other forces. This one doesn’t do it.

            To support your woo force, you’re going to have to find something we haven’t already identified, and you’re going to have to show how it affects our particles without being detected, or without particles ever showing unknown or unexpected behavior. There is one hypothesis that I know of for this to be true – and that’s if the laws of physics simply stop operating when they encounter a human being. This hypothesis, as you might imagine, is not considered to be realistic, but it’s possible. Quantum theory tells us anything is possible – if you’re prepared to wait for billions of years times the age of the universe for it to happen!

            I’m not sure your terminology is correct in saying emotions change our brain functions. Emotions are simply synapse firing patterns in the brain, along with the release of certain chemicals. The brain’s “functions” don’t change. They do what they do – which is create patterns across the connectome. These activities produce electromagnetic forces, and as discussed, they can be measured, and they are very limited in how far they extend. You need to find another force. This one doesn’t work for your hypothesis.

            Yes, sound waves travel, along with light, and we can see and hear other people and come to conclusions about them – but we can’t read minds, or do anything of that nature. These, again, are well-known, well-documented forces. Sound energy is physical energy, the vibration of particles such as air or water. Of course this too can be measured and documented. LIght is electromagnetic energy, so we know what it can do.

            Emotions aren’t an “energy.” They are a firing pattern in the brain, along with the associated release of certain chemicals. There is no way to measure emotion, other than through observation of the brain’s connectome, the electromagnetic footprint that creates, and the chemical processes going on – though you are certainly free to debunk the standard model of physics if you can do so.

            If you find anything to dispute what I’ve said here, please pass it along, but I’m pretty sure if you go down that rabbit hole and follow the data where it leads, you’ll eventually abandon the woo and end up on the side of science.

          • Craig

            No I think the evolved people should leave them to succumb to their ailments and starvation as if it was not for the evolved people these multitudes would actually wipe themselves out.
            You cannot provide first world treatment to third world cultures…

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m amazed that you got no response to this. If I had said this, I would have been crucified.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Is Rush Limbaugh still around? I guess I haven’t been able to hear him over the noise of Alex Jones’s InfoWars. Sad!

          • Raphael

            TYT monitors both of these characters’ delusional rantings once in a while…for entertainment value.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        I hope your family has been able to move north, and they stay safe. Miami is supposed to get it pretty hard as it’s going east rather than west.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

      • Kristen

        Did your family get out fine?
        K

        • Patrick Gannon

          Still concerned about the one in Cape Coral who decided to ride out the storm. Trying to find out if that’s still her plan, given that it looks like Ft. Myers is going to get hammered.

          • Kristen

            Fingers crossed….hope she has big bloomers to parachute out in the wind.
            xx

    • Raphael

      Stay safe Annie!

    • Kristen

      Thanks for touching base Annie, fingers crossed.
      I understand about Biscuit, Im the same.
      I see the ‘real Floridians’ have stocked up well, supermarkets and gas stations are out already but I guess whats on the net doesnt make it real……but I do hope you put food in that hurricane kit too! And a beer!
      As Patrick says…hold on to your bloomers…if all else fails and everything turns to crap at least youll look good with bloomers on!
      Love and thoughts are with you both.
      xx

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Nonperishables at the ready, ma’am! Not enough money for beer, but I know my neighbor has stocked up on it. And he likes me and Biscuit. 😉

        No bloomers. Boxer briefs. Women’s clothing is made so much more cheaply than men’s that most of my clothes are men’s. If the quality of women’s clothing was the same as men’s, I’d buy women’s. But my Mama raised a thrifty gaggle of kids. I won’t pay twice the price for something I know won’t last half as long.

        I’ve lost everything more than once in my life. If only Biscuit and I survive, I know how to bounce back. I’d prefer not to have to, but it’s good to know I know how.

        Now it’s a waiting game. Largo should get hit on Sunday, but they’re predicting it’s going to be much worse on the east coast and I’m nearer the west.

        Then comes the next one… 😛

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

        • Kristen

          Haha. I was looking forward to seeing a clip on youtube of a woman in old fashioned bloomers with her dog! Im the opposite…I think if there was a choice of die or even wear a guys tshirt id choose death. But yip we females clothes made cheaply!
          Good youre on the west coast, the other day if was forecast to hit the west, Dr Google showed me where Largo was.
          Take care,
          K

    • Kristen

      Annie…since its going in a different path, West Florida not East, Ive just read that since you have a civil emergency declared already that the congress law kicks in that ALL shelters have to take household pets and make provisions for them. I assume you know this, it just went up on the FEMA website, but letting you know just in case you werent aware of it.
      Stay safe Annie,
      xx