What do you think?
ARE YOU A CHEMICAL CREATURE
OR A SPIRITUAL BEING?

As I said in my last entry here, the Conversations with God books challenge every reader to make a simple choice. That choice has to do with how you see yourself in the Universe.

The dialogue makes it clear that you (and all of us) have two choices when it comes to how you think of yourself.

I noted in my most previous entry that I’ve outlined these two choices in earlier writings. I’m going to do so again now. And, as promised, I shall not apologize for the repetition. In my assessment, we need to hear this over and over again — and it would benefit us, I believe, to make a firm and final decision regarding our identity as sentient beings in the universe.

So let’s look at these two choices as I experience them.

Choice #1: You could conceive of yourself as a chemical creature, a “biological incident,” if you please. That is, the outcome of a biological process engaged in by two older biological processes called your mother and your father.

Choice #2: You could conceive of yourself as a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what we call a “body.”

A closer look at Choice #1: If you see yourself as a chemical creature, you would see yourself as having no more connection to the larger processes of life than any other chemical or biological life form.

Like all the others, you would be impacted by life, but could have very little impact on life. You certainly couldn’t create events, except in the most remote, indirect sense. You could create more life (all chemical creatures carry the biological capacity to recreate more of themselves), but you could not create what life does, or how it “shows up” in any given moment.

Further, as a chemical creature you would see yourself as having very limited ability to create an intentioned response to the events and conditions of life. You would see yourself as a creature of habit and instinct, with only those resources that your biology brings you.

You would see yourself as having more resources than a turtle, because your biology has gifted you with more. You would see yourself as having more resources than a butterfly, because your biology has gifted you with more.

Yet that is all you would see yourself as having in terms of resources.

You would see yourself as having to deal with life day-by-day pretty much as it comes, with perhaps a tiny bit of what seems like “control” based on advance planning, etc., but you would know that at any minute anything could go wrong— and often does.

A closer look at Choice #2: You could conceive of yourself as a spiritual being inhabiting a biological mass—what I call a “body.”

If you saw yourself as a spiritual being, you would see yourself as having powers and abilities far beyond those of a simple chemical creature; powers that transcend basic physicality and its laws.

You would understand that these powers and abilities give you collaborative control over the exterior elements of your individual and collective life and complete control over the interior elements—which means that you have total ability to create your own reality, because your reality has nothing to do with producing the exterior elements of your life and everything to do with how you respond to the elements that have been produced.

Also, as a spiritual being, you would know that you are here (on the earth, that is) for a spiritual reason. This is a highly focused purpose and has little to do directly with your occupation or career, your income or possessions or achievements or place in society, or any of the exterior conditions or circumstances of your life.

You would know that your purpose has to do with your interior life—and that how well you do in achieving your purpose may very often have an effect on your exterior life.

(For the interior life of each individual cumulatively produces the exterior life of the collective. That is, those people around you, and those people who are around those people who are around you. It is in this way that you, as a spiritual being, participate in the evolution of your species.)

In my next entry here I will offer you, from the For What It’s Worth Dept., an articulation of the choice I have made in response to CWG’s invitation. I’m sure you all know what my choice has been, but it might be fascinating to take a look at some recorded historical agreement on this subject.

Until then…

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  • Craig

    Seems like the same thing with different attitudes…

  • YoW! Fires in California, Fires in Oregon and Montana, areas of Canada are on fire, parts of Texas are underwater, Idaho had a 5.3. earthquake, North Korea just tested their 6 nuclear bomb causing a 6.3 explosion quake, and Irma is now the most powerful category 5 hurricane in over a decade.

    It’s like several disaster movies are coming to life in this moment of time. Troubling indeed. So grateful to be in a safe and unaffected area, but there is even more stuff like this going on in other parts of the world, we don’t hear about being so focused on our own troubles.

    Pray, visualize, mediate and take what ever inspired action to help our fellow man in what ever way we can. It looks like several disaster movies are coming to life in the real world.

    • Craig

      Sounds like biblical forecast for the end of time…
      But is this not experienced every 360 years or so. The end of an age…
      It is devastating for those living in the areas, yet they accept, remain, and maybe experience the disastrous effect again next year. The question I have then is the peace joy and righteousness faith creates then fulfilled?
      Or is the faith the problem… Failing to choose and do things to change the way we experience life…
      Sorry to sound harsh towards those affected but the question on the blog refers to a choice to be spiritual… Bringing about change and not just surviving and reproducing.

      • Jethro

        It’s a gamble, knowing that a natural disaster may strike your home but betting that everything you have including your life will remain. It’s the life had between the storms that is so appreciated that makes it worth possibly losing. Isn’t that wonderful? The life between the storms makes the storms worth it.

        • Craig

          Thank you maybe the reward in this gamble is greater than the fear associated to the possible outcome…
          But accepted everyone makes a choice on the evidence available concerning the options proposed.
          1 person dies every second, so is one born, so does every other life experience occur all simultaneously. We are just not aware of the other events so we can not say which role in life we are going to play… Maybe this is the spiritual awareness Neale is referring to and not some supernatural mental ability… Know your role and play it well…

          • Jethro

            The spiritual awareness as I understand it is knowing our impact on life while participating in and being a part of life, even when we believe we are apart from that life. The butterfly effect is a story about the wind from the wing of a butterfly becoming a hurricane on the other side of the world. In the same manner, our actions create other actions. The slightest expression of kindness and caring in one moment, may create years of peace in war torn areas. One act of unkindness could reverse years of peace. With this possibility in mind, Neale has expressed that if we choose to see a world of love, caring, kindness, etc.. We need to express it ourselves. Nothing really supernatural about it. Just be the person you would like to meet on the street everyday. It WILL catch on.

      • Craig, I think in part it’s do to global unconscious fears, climate change & political idiocy. I think some of this could also be the self fulfilling prophesy of certain Christian Sects that may desire & glorify end times as part of the influence.

        Of course, I’m not fully sure, but I do envision and practice visualizing a world where the government, politicians, and it’s people are wise, loving, and make great decisions regarding the planet.

        I like to say “Visualize what you’d like to see, and it will be, eventually.”

        • Craig

          Marko
          Visualize…
          Dream the dream
          Live the dream
          Be the dream

          Or Peter Senge’s Fifth Discipline…

      • Kristen

        Hi Craig…I would word it differently, your question.
        Id ask “is the peace, joy and faith that righteousness creates then fulfilled?”.
        Scriptures focus on telling us to be righteous, faith is then something gifted to us, not the other way around.
        I dont think faith is a problem at all…more the deceptions of churches and man.
        Perhaps hope, trust and false faith are more of a problem…leading to complacency… Y’shua (Jesus) had so many parables warning people against that.
        K.

        • Craig

          Kristen
          Good correction thanks.
          Gifted to us… Gift or rather ability if I understand the Greek definition correct…
          Something like a skill being perfected, not so much an attitude of trust relationship. Practice makes perfect.
          So faith for me is more about the ability to focus and work on achieving. Biblical that would refer to good and right human thing to do. Above human thing done to progress in life.

          Again the reference to Jeremiah.
          Move to
          Build permanent dweling
          Plant crop to eat
          Form relationships
          Multiply
          Be fruitful in relationship as well as business

          Those are the things that bring about the results of peace, joy and righteousness.

          Unfortunately I cannot just live and progress by just relaying on….

          But I can be grateful for the results of my handy works.

          For me Yeshua is not a person but rather a lifestyle that brings about SALVATION. The same as cwg, positive thinking, mind power and religious dogmas all refer to trust, acceptance, consistency and focus. YHVH is exactly all of these manifested in the way we do things while Yeshua is the result… Takes on flesh…

          • Jethro

            “Yeshua is not a person but rather a lifestyle that brings about SALVATION. The same as cwg, positive thinking, mind power and religious dogmas all refer to trust, acceptance, consistency and focus. YHVH is exactly all of these manifested in the way we do things while Yeshua is the result… Takes on flesh…”

            Yes!! Said very well Craig. This is also my way of thinking.

          • Craig

            And I thought I was the crazy one who just could not understand the biblical concepts…

          • Jethro

            I don’t think we have a hard time with biblical concepts, I think we have a hard time with other humans thoughts about them.
            Beliefs about the definition of scriptures have been passed down for generations, generations of people who were not educated but respected. It seems that everyone knows there is a problem with those beliefs, but nobody is saying anything, just walking away while nobody is looking. As for being crazy… It’s possible:)

          • Patrick Gannon

            I still don’t get the whole “salvation” thing. If I need to be saved, it’s because I’m drowning, I’m stuck in a ravine, I’m lost in the jungle, I’m stranded at sea, I’m in trouble.

            From what is it, that we need to be saved? I don’t need to be saved, and I don’t want someone making me feel like I need to be saved, thus empowering them and minimizing myself. If I need to be saved, I’ll holler! Otherwise what’s all this bit about salvation?

            Are we talking individuals or society? The concept, from the religious standpoint is one of personal salvation – screw society. Are we redefining “salvation” like we do so many other words these days? Who is being saved, from what, and by whom?

          • Craig

            Patrick no one but you and your committed cognitive problem solving will resolve your issues, unless you have a Samaritan to do things on your behalf as they have compassion towards you.

            What you trust in and focus on will determine what you get.

            YHVH is a life process you seem to think I view it as a mystic entity. I know that there is a power greater than my own you said previously Evolution. For me the reason for the big bang and evolution… And we will debate this over and over but not agree.

            Yeshua the created result of applying your mind. Words will always direct and change our actions, when this happens we find the solution the biblical translators referred to as salvation.

            This applied mental attribute and how you and I should always be grateful for it and show others how this mindset guided us is what life is about, and Job prayed for his friends… not the solutions offered by man-made things. After all we were born through a natural process. No test tube and cloning principle. Yes these later are our alternatives…

            The greatest compensation of life is that we are truly only helping ourselves every time we assist others.

            No one cares how much we know until the experience how much we care…

            Trust this will help clarify a little.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, it doesn’t help. Either the word “salvation” is being redefined, or you have not told me what we need to be saved from. I just went to Bible Gateway and searched for “salvation” a word that appears over 100 times – and it invariably describes being saved from something. It’s all about fear. To be saved from my fear, all I needed to do was realize Yahweh was a myth.

            You are also redefining Yahweh. He is the god of the OT, and formerly a war god for several tribes in the Levant. How is the god of the OT a “life process”? A life process would be something like “hydrogenating carbon dioxide.” I understand that you are not thinking about Yahweh as a mystic being, but you are not admitting that he is a mythical being – and as such – what is the sense in redefining him? Let him RIP. He died, along with all the other gods on July 4, 2012.

            And now Jesus is the created result of applying my mind? Why must we assign biblical characters to explain human concepts? Solutions to my problems are (hopefully) the created result of applying my mind. Jesus gets no credit.

            Job was an idiot.

          • Craig

            Then so am I an idiot.

            For words will always guide direct and change outcomes. We must just do them.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I didn’t say you were an idiot, I said Job was. I sometimes have trouble understanding your points – probably because of minor language differences – but this makes it all the more important to have definitions everyone agrees on – else yield to confusion.

            For those who don’t know the story, this is the story of Job using updated language: (with minor language edits)

            “THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL SEEN THROUGH THE BOOK OF JOB AS TOLD ON REDDIT BY CADFAN17:

            Job is a rich guy with tons of bling. Hot wife, loads of kids, all kinds of stuff.

            God and Satan are talking. Satan’s like, “Job only likes you cuz you gave him an easy life. Take it away and he won’t like you anymore.” God’s like, “You’re on. Lets screw up his life.”

            So they do.

            Now the cliffsnotes version of the story you’ll hear in a $hitty church is that Job remained faithful, so God gave Job all his $hit back. The ACTUAL version that’s ACTUALLY in the Bible does not say that.
            In the actual version God and Satan wreck Job’s $hit. Job is like, “man, this… really sucks. I’m not being flippant here. My kids are all dead. I am… I am not in a good place right now.”

            Job’s friends show up and are like, “DAMN, dude! God is seriously pi$$ed at you! What did you DO?”

            And Job says, “Nothing, seriously. He just wrecked my life and killed everyone I loved for… as far as I can tell, literally no reason at all.”

            And Job’s friends are all, “Ok, there’s no way. God would only do this to you if you REALLY sinned. You’d better beg for forgiveness.”
            And Job says, “I’ve got no forgiveness to beg for. I didn’t do anything. This all happened for no reason.”

            And his friends, “No, this definitely happened for a reason. God liked you so he gave you a good life, now God doesn’t like you so he screwed your life up, obviously you sinned and he’s angry with you, you need to apologize so he’ll give you back the high life to which you were so sweetly accustomed.”

            And Job says, “No. I didn’t do anything. I’m not apologizing for $hit I didn’t do.”

            And his friends are like, “Man, screw you. Not only did you sin, like, MASSIVELY, you aren’t even repentant. You suck. I don’t know how we didn’t notice this before.”

            And then they bail on him because no one wants to hang out with a secret pedophile or whatever they thought Job was.
            So Job sits there and is all, “Ok… God? I’m not fooling here. I’m in pain. Do you not… do you not understand that people… hurt? When you hurt them? Do you not… get what suffering is? Do you not understand what you’ve… what you’ve done here? Are you just so far away that you… don’t… understand how fragile we are? Or that you can’t… care?”

            So God hears this and is SUPER PI$$ED. Because he just told Satan that Job was all pious and $hit but now Job is calling him out. So he shows up and SCREAMS at Job. He goes on this big rant about all the monsters he’s killed and the things he’s seen and how amazing he is and HOW F’ing DARE JOB QUESTION HIM! He gets super into it, and REALLY threatening.

            And Job just falls on his face and begs forgiveness because seriously what else is he going to do, he doesn’t think he can take God in a fight.

            So God takes some deep breaths and counts to ten and goes to his happy place for a minute and gets himself under control again.
            Then he says, “Ok, ok… so… we all gotta move on from here… Tell you what. You did tell the truth about me, back there. That’s worth something. You at least *get* me, even if you don’t always RESPECT. So I’ma give you new women and kids and cows and
            $hit. Not your old ones, Satan and I killed those. New ones though. These are gonna be better, I swear. And, what else. Oh yeah, your so called friends. They didn’t tell the truth about me. So I’ma murder them all.”

            And Job begs God not to do that, because Job really is a stand up guy, that’s been established. And God lets them live.

            So… the thing Job did that was telling the truth about God was stating that God sends good and evil to us without respect to our righteousness. And the thing that Job’s friends did that was telling lies about God was claiming that God sends wealth and easy living to the righteous, and misery to the unrighteous.

            In other words, the moral of Job is that if you believe in the prosperity gospel God will straight up ice you unless Job asks him to chill.”

          • Jethro

            “but this makes it all the more important to have definitions everyone agrees on – else yield to confusion.”
            For some reason this sounds familiar. The whole conversation does. Craig finds this all as interesting as I have. He is I, with a different perspective. As you are. We all know instinctively that there is more to the story than is being told… Maybe less, but we know it’s not the way we were told. We knew it before our Ideas about it changed… after the fear. Craig is saying pretty much what I have said, or he’s on his way quite possibly. I could be wrong about that (Grin).

          • Craig

            Thank you for covering my back here. Jethro.
            I’ve been a stern follower of Pauline doctrine. 20 years ago I jump off the religious sect as I had too many questions and disagreements with scriptural interpretations.
            So I did what everyone said is wrong I started questioning as Job, protecting my view above what others said is correct.
            I seemed out teachers to explain original scripts, needles to say very few could be found. So I left religious views and sought out linguistic explanations. That was when the scripture made sense. A group of people cherishing a life model based on their forefathers views on what they should apply as a worthy lifestyle and here the concept of lord or god was introduced as a discriptive of the chosen process. Some stories get carried away like many folklore so we need to remove those things that could refer to additions out of the way so that we can follow the life thread of the peculiar nation or people.
            No one has seen or declared this concept more clearly than a neutraaal Jewish friend of mine. YHVH in semantic literature is the beginning and end of life experience cycles. The later Hebrews that adapted the seman

          • Patrick Gannon

            “So I did what everyone said is wrong I started questioning as Job, protecting my view above what others said is correct.”

            How is this any different from the religious fundamentalist who protects his/her views above what others illustrate to be correct? It is in the questioning of our own views that we make progress towards truth – how else did you get away from the Pauline story? You questioned your own belief. Don’t stop doing that. Don’t make the same mistake as me. I did that when I jumped from Christianity to the CwG religion. I simply substituted one set of beliefs for another. It almost pulled me back out of my newly “awakened” state. Fortunately I picked up the habit of reading a lot and that, along with getting the courage to question my own views, eventually broke me off of the god drug. I sobered up, more awake and more enlightened than before.

            There are no original scriptures – none – so I understand that part of your search! Without them we can never know for sure what was originally written. Seeking linguistic interpretations of scriptures that aren’t original is incomplete at best, isn’t it? It doesn’t make anything more reliable, it just substitutes whatever the original authors said, for what the linguistic interpreters said – doesn’t it?

            I’m not sure if you’re calling Yahweh a god or a process or an allegory for something. I would prefer that Yahweh be bible god, so we all know what we’re talking about. Your views sounds to me, a lot like gnostic interpretation; so why not call it gnosis? You can talk about seeking gnosis and I know what you’re talking about. Talk about seeking Yahweh, and I will be repelled as will most people who understand the evil associated with that name. Why use terms that drive people away or confuse the issue?

            You’re also turning Jesus into an allegory. Doesn’t that just confuse matters and lead to miscommunication? Most Christians at this point in their evolution are not going to see Jesus as an allegory (although with the growth of the Nones, I could be wrong about that). I’ve researched Jesus. I am highly doubtful that a historical Jesus even existed – so you may be right; he’s an allegory for a celestial demigod, from Kristin’s side of the house.

            I confess, Craig that I am still confused about your views. You do believe in some kind of supreme being, right? And that is Yahweh, or no? And Jesus is his son, or no?

            Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to discard the bible – I do want to discard Yahweh and Jesus. (Well Jesus is moot if there’s no Yahweh). There is a lot that the bible can still teach us – for one, how our legal system was impacted by the “genesis of the law.” However, as a society, we have to come to the recognition – and we will in due course – that there are no gods, that have any impact whatsoever on our lives.

          • Craig

            Questioning our own conviction does exactly what you said it does. We either learn something new or confirm our existing views.
            Well let’s say I learnt a lot more on the Hebraic doctrine or lifestyle and would have easily adapted it had the linguistic research not taught me that they neither have 100% certainty on the writings of their own forefathers as the languages used change with each era dipicted in the OT and mostly the scholars then may have understood it better than the scholars today as they still had some verbal recitation that would have formed their knowledge base as it is only in the later years that the men started reading and writing, the most just copied something they could not even pronounce… So the verbal recitation was the only literacy learning 95% of the men had… And this was lost for 300 plus years so nobody alive can with any certainty even marginally claim they are interpreting the scriptures correct. But that the scriptures reveal worthy life lessonlesson remains a fact.
            I believe in a reason for this creation (my understanding of gnosis) and big bang or evolution do not answer that question… They just indicate likely processes that resulted in the creation. Until I have proof of the reason why not evidence of the how, as that I have accepted. I can only accept that there exists a Superior being/beings in a larger reality of which we may but be dinghy toys/match box sized or even smaller in relation to this reality.
            No I would not call it a spiritual realm as spirit in the OT scriptures refers to two possibilities; Life or Communication. In the NT somehow supernatural or second realm came into existence, maybe the earlier language barrier of the translators…
            Larger being than us I believe in. Again this being was only described throughout human history as to be an entity that is worshipped. Worship in my view a reality acknowledged in the way we do things, nothing else, no religion of rituals or closing of covenants but the asdapting of a specific lifestyle that evolves into our own legacy.
            And we know good and bad are not opposites but lifestyles that compliment each other keeping life on earth in harmony. Although we all reveal attributes of both lifestyles we do have a dominant preference and it is when we live out this preference that we worship, serve or acknowledge a Superior or divine purpose in life.
            And yes Jesus or Yeshua I view as figurative speech reflecting a lifestyle focussed on our prominent trait of good or bad. Call it a disciple, son or reflection of this attribute. And when living this out we experience joy, peace and righteousness based on our percieved view of good or bad. (Holiness or Evil all synonyms) based of vast probable interpretations of ancient scripts.
            Again if you want more truth research the secret Inuit traditions as they are still the purest of the ancient traditions we know today, followed by Japanese and Chinese etc. Your evolution research may be more thorough than mine in this…
            Sorry but if you discard the bible you will need to discard YHVH as well as Yeshua. And if you discard either entity you will have to discard the bible as it only bears “witness” of these. I just use these names as they imply more than God, Lord, Elohim, Jehovah or Jesus and Christ…
            Kristen s religion I cannot comment on as I have not specifically read any literature thereon.
            I cannot deny a more Superior being as I said in previous blogs I’ve experienced and witnessed too many incidence we can call miracles. Sorry but I could as yet not explain why or how these happened, there may or may not be a reason.
            Another truth is that no one can judge someone else on something we self have not yet experienced witnessed or personally examined we can just accept it as their reality… Do not seek answers as each of us are guided by our personal paradigms an these will only change when we return to Zero.
            That is what makes this life so interesting, not things proven and recorded as facts. We need to question as you said so that we can try to understand as we may never truly comprehend…

          • Craig

            Interesting version of Job…
            No I like Job’s story, that is why I say I must then be an idiot.
            No language is not a problem. My typing shorthand style is…
            I’ll comment better with my response to Jethro…

          • Kristen

            Hi,
            My take on Y’shua differs, yes he is his Fathers son, but there are too many instances where both are present seperately for me to define them as the one. God saying ‘this is my son and I am proud of him’, Y’shua asking why God had forsaken him plus in Revelation they are both there in differing roles. Im sort of neutral on ‘Yshua…great teacher but I disagree about cutting the hands off theives, gouging eyes out, plus forgiveness. God stated no criminal is to go unpunished, then at the end of Revelation He is in the role of Lord God Almighty. Isaiah states Gods word is righteousness, and Lord Almightys is justice, along with ‘woe to you who denys justice to the innocent’, therefore victims and righteous people. People are tested for righteousness and the depth of their sense of justice, the plumbline story about vertical depth. These two traits together make the infamous holy white cross. Forgiveness goes against God stating all are to be punished, and his latter role as Lord God Almighty.
            Ive never been a Christian so tend to read scriptures as black and white without anyones elses interpretations thrown in the middle.
            K

          • Jethro

            Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
            In this scripture, it is meant for the people to not suffer the brutality of vengeance. Vengeance damages the human spirit, the desire to have revenge damages the human spirit.
            The son died on the cross for the sins of all man so that all man could receive peace in merely asking for forgiveness and heal a damaged spirit.
            These two subjects protect the spirit of the offended and the offender. The human spirit, that which is the image of God is to be protected and healed if damaged. It’s the purpose of the oldest religions to achieve inner peace. There can be no inner peace if people believe they are doomed to eternal punishment no matter what they do. This is why it’s said to be so important to have faith, a person must have faith in the laws of God to achieve inner peace and know they will be gathered and taken to a place of eternal peace after death. Since we are human and make mistakes, a belief in God is important to remove the guilt of those mistakes. A non-believer is said to be doomed to hell because it’s believed that a non-believer will never find peace. Humans love drama, so have turned the message of the bible, and other religious writings, to drama and it’s ripping the religions apart. That’s what I have come up with anyway.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Knowledge and compelling, objective evidence is ripping religions apart. We know beyond reasonable doubt that there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. We know Yahweh is a myth, and as such, Jesus becomes moot and unnecessary.

            With regard to both the legacy and New Age religions, we also know that there are no magical forces, energies, consciousnesses, gods, souls, essential essences or other woo forces that can affect the particles in our natural world. In short, there are no gods that interact with us….. Or every single physics experiment ever performed yielded incorrect results.

            Religion is being ripped apart because we know now that it’s bogus. Some of us are clearly better at adapting to this change in our understanding than others… I’m encouraged by the dramatic growth of the “Nones” who are leaving religion in droves. These are mostly young people. It means they must be getting some sort of science education!

          • Jethro

            My post is worded for the believer yet doesn’t go against my own thoughts. Without all the woo and imagination, the stories in the holy books were told as devises of teaching. How we define “the moral of the story” I believe is different or incorrect from its origin. There’s really no way to know for sure. The generation gap is too great.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I have to agree with that. I think you are correct, that we can’t really know the motivations and lessons the ancients were trying to get across to their people at that time. I think some of the stories can have great value as points of discussion to discuss moral issues – and to illustrate human evolution as we have slowly turned away from horrific biblical morality. These texts are in some way, good news. They show us how far we’ve come, and most of this progress has been during the last generation or two.

          • Craig

            You understand…
            Scriptures are people’s way of communicating their experience with others. Yes, very littlelittle in the scripture was actually written by the individuals self, generally the generation gaps forced people to record what they remember as best they can for the later generations to learn from, no re inventing cognitive principles or life changing processes.
            We must just share with others. No not create a blog and keep quiet be involved…

          • Jethro

            That’s a fact!!

          • Kristen

            I agree, and that forgiveness gives peace of mind BUT not as Christians teach it, they teach out of context so perpetrators think its all over, neglecting to realise there will still be Gods wrath.
            Levites, my tribe, replaced animals as the sacrifices, which Y’shua then took over BUT these were for sins only, the OT clearly seperates sins from crimes. Sins are generally a part of religion and forgiveable, crimes are different and punishable, in fact Priests are bound by a Law stating if they fail to stop a crime happening God may punish them as the criminal, which led to what we now know as country Laws.
            So my main issue with many teachings, including CwG is that there are no consequences other than self imposed ones or where we harm ourselves in harming others, thats dangerous to teach. Forgiveness as peace of mind is completely different to teaching perpetrators that there are no consequencs.
            Also note hell is a state of confusion etc, but God’s throne is beyond the gates at that point, that one before the gates is judgements from The Source of all, with his own angel Metatron on that throne, who guards the books of life, a judgement where ‘the dead’ reincarnated people, and punished for their deeds. The Source is identified as the all seeing eye. Its not a judgement day of God. Thats where he switches to dwelling with love and joy, as Lord God Almightly, and Heaven (a happy positive state) on Earth with justice and righteousness. Christians just assume God is the judge at that hell position, He’s not.
            K

          • Jethro

            I was always taught, as a Pentecostal, that breaking the law of the land was the same as going against the Bible which would have been a sin. We must also obey the law of the land. Gods wrath was avoided by the asking of forgiveness from God, a forgiving God whos love was/is incomprehensible to us mortals. Now your saying that’s not correct? No matter what, we are doomed to hell and the act of Jesus was for nothing? I also understand that the Jewish/Israelites never excepted Jesus as the messiah.
            Don’t think for a second I’m putting you or your beliefs down! I’m trying to understand. You rely so much on your gut that I’m afraid to give you the wrong gut feeling.
            I was raised as a Pentecostal Christian. A pretty strict religion that had me in hell after death either way it seems. It’s equally dangerous to believe your damned to hell no matter what you do. It’s permission to be as evil as you wish, or climb the evil ladder and be higher up in hell. It’s a common belief. People turn to devil worship because they feel they must go ahead and serve the lord of there destination.
            I’m going to have to read the rest of your post a few times to get in touch with it. Your understanding is a little different than I’m accustomed to. I’m sure there is something more I need to understand and I’m involved in other stuff at the moment.

          • Kristen

            Hi,
            We just go what is literally written…and the OT differentiates between crimes and sins, sins are forgiveable, crimes were punishable. Even in the very end of Revelation it still uses the word ‘sins’ for forgiveness. Thats all I can go by.
            Yip Revelation does indicate everyone ends up with a hell life, on the technicality it says ‘all liars’ which would include everyone I assume.
            But I dont believe in that as a true prophesy anyway, that means human life is pointless. Plus God forbade the eating of shellfish plus to hate shells etc and talks a lot about pus, discharges and infections…so why on Earth would He then have balls of oyster pus which is what pearls are, as the gates to Heaven! I personally think its a load of crock! Hope so, but I for one would never go near any gates made from pus, or pearls!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Kristen is not a traditional or Orthodox Jew. You will have trouble fitting her beliefs into the traditional Judeo-Christian framework. She’s from an offshoot branch that differs significantly from traditional Jews in many areas. They include other books in their texts that are not in the OT. These books, some of which I’ve read, speak of a whole hierarchy of gods in the firmament (outer space). In some of those texts, Yahweh is the bad guy. If I recall, he was created by “Sophia” (a word that also means Wisdom – but she obtained wisdom, I guess, by screwing up).

            We know today that there is no “firmament,” so all these gods and demigods are imaginary.

            I had not heard of the idea that if one was going to Hell anyway, one might as well go for the gold. I kind of like that idea! What I have heard of by way of personal knowledge is that some believers figure if they are going to Hell anyway, and they are so miserable here because their congregation has told them that they are going to Hell because they doubted the existence of the Holy Spirit – an unforgivable sin – then they might as well take their lives and get it over and done with. I have to wonder how many suicides, particularly young people, came out of the misery that these religions propagated. One day, when we’re civilized, we’ll incarcerate these ministers.

          • Jethro

            “Kristen is not a traditional or Orthodox Jew. You will have trouble fitting her beliefs into the traditional Judeo-Christian framework.”

            I just figured that out…

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I was taught at a very young age that I am the spawn of Satan himself, that my purpose in this life was to be evil, that anyone or anything I touched would become corrupted, and my end would come when my true nature was publicly exposed. These were things I was repeatedly told as a young child, often accentuated with humiliation and pain.

            Mostly, I believed it, but a small part of me refused to. The former (believing it then) is one of the reasons I know neural pathways can always be rewritten, once exposed, because I no longer believe it. The latter (not believing it then) is one of the reasons I believe I’m more than my neural pathways because I had not one shred of evidence to disprove it at the time, yet that still, small voice kept telling me it wasn’t true.

            Not sure exactly why your post brought this up, but felt compelled to share it.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            I was raised Catholic, but I wouldn’t say it went that far. Like you, I knew I was evil by virtue of something someone else supposedly did long ago, but I was told my purpose in life was to try and overcome that evil by saying, doing and believing what the robed, celibate, virgins who insist we call them “father” despite having removed themselves from the gene pool, insisted upon. I too questioned, and not always in the still, small voice, but I didn’t completely walk away from it till I read the bible cover to cover decades later.

            I would suggest that the “still, small voice” is the one that insists on some kind of evidence which the Church can not provide. I think, like myself, you stopped insisting on the evidence, when you switched beliefs, because the second time around, you really wanted to believe it. I know I did. That’s what happened to me when I went to CwG. I really wanted to believe it; but inevitably the “still, small voice” spoke up again, and told me to wake up and do what I did when I left the last belief – demand the evidence. And we all know, as Neale admits, that there is none that all of us can rely on.

            We really, really want to believe it’s true. I get that; but doesn’t truth matter more than what we want to believe?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I was referring to my earliest childhood years, not the church teachings. These are the neural pathways laid down by my father even before I attended school, much less Sunday School or religion classes.

            That still, small voice was there regardless of what I was told or how many times it was beaten into me. I have heard it ever since I can remember, and I have a long memory. Some of it goes back to age 2, long before I had any ideas about evidence or faith.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Ah, thanks for the clarification.

            Have you given any more thought, or done any further research on the FDA approval of MDMA to assist with PTSD? If I had that kind of childhood, I’d want to erase as much of it as I could. I did erase most of my childhood memories, which are over-written with newer, better stuff.

            One thing about those early memories – they are apt to be at least partially incorrect, because every time you recall a memory, you re-write it, and it’s difficult to avoid at least some minor alterations with each new writing of the memory. If you recall a memory in a state of fear, anger, etc. that emotion will get attached to the new version of the memory. You can make it worse and worse and worse, or, it sounds like, with the aid of MDMA and counseling, you can remove some or all of the angst associated with them. If it was me, I’d be on top of that like syrup on hotcakes!

            A good article on the subject: Forbes: FDA Designates MDMA As ‘Breakthrough Therapy’ For Post-Traumatic Stress

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I’ve really had to think about how to reply to your comments, and they’re all wanting to rush out at once so they may be a bit jumbled.

            I think you may be misreading my situation. I no longer have the most problematic effects of abuse—night terrors, body memories, rage, outbursts, uncontrollable sobbing, low self-esteem, and on and on.

            The PTSD that I have has more to do with the cumulative effect of my father’s abuses, then priest molestation, then date rape, and a series of abusive relationships I had before therapy and healing. It’s the combination of the abuses and that they were repeated in my life regularly until my early 30’s that cause my PTSD. The two main symptoms I’m left with are hypervigilence (which I personally believe caused my physical sleep disorder) and social anxiety, both treatable with life adjustments, medication on occasion, and Biscuit’s company while I’m out and about. In order to reduce them by removing the traumatic experiences, I’d have to be a blank slate for most of the first thirty years of my life or so.

            I also neither think it would be wise nor healthy to do so. Victims of sexual assault who have been dosed with date rape drugs and people who have completely blocked childhood memories of abuse still suffer the effects—even without the memory. It’s not until something triggers their memories, or there’s a witness who can relate what happened, that they find out why they act as they do. Those I’ve known are relieved to finally understand why their life has been the way it has, like finding the last missing puzzle piece on the floor wedged between the baseboard and a chair leg. Once the picture of their past is complete, they can then deal with it and are often happy to do so.

            From here, it’s more complicated. This is one of those instances where I think your life and mine have been so different that I’m not sure you’ll ever understand what I’m about to say next.

            I have no desire to “erase” my traumatic childhood memories. It’s through the healing of them that I gained my greatest gifts—compassion, unconditional love, empathy, joy, awe, my desire to help others, my self-confidence, my ability to read others, my ability to relate with nearly anyone one-on-one, my personal Spiritual journey, my serenity, my wanting to contribute and live life fully. It’s also by walking through the fire that I learned so many tools I still use to this day when problems arise, as they do in life. When life knocks me down, I rise back up pretty fast.

            I’m grateful for absolutely everything that has brought me to be who I am today, and I can’t exclude any moment of my life from that gratitude. If any one moment had been different, I would be, too. In a way most can’t understand, I’m even grateful to my father, because without him, there’d have been no need for the depth of self evaluation and questioning that brought me those gifts I value so much and which make my life full that I received through healing. I wouldn’t give up those gifts for anything.

            There may be a use for MDMA in treating PTSD, but I’m not a candidate. Nor are others I can think of that have lived through childhood abuses. A single instance of trauma, maybe—but even then I think working through one’s issues around it has more gains to it than simply relieving PTSD.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Erase” is not the right word, though I may have used it. The idea, as I understand it, is to disassociate the negative emotions, not the memory of the event itself. Removing or dampening the emotions, allows the patient to examine the event more closely and clearly, without the distortion of emotions.

            Let’s give it some time. I’m confident that the treatment will resolve or assist with all kinds of PTSD, including what you describe; but time will tell.

            This isn’t intended personally, but I think there are some people who really don’t want to be “cured” so to speak. Their definition of themselves includes being a victim and they want to keep it that way. I know a person like this.

            In addition to other aspects of science, I try to keep up with neurology. A decade or so from now, I think we will have “cured” anxiety, depression, and similar conditions that are all based on the way the brain lays down memories. We’re learning very quickly.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Just to make sure you understand me, I am not a victim, nor do I feel a need to be cured. My memories no longer control me.

            I am what I call a Riser, as in one who’s learned how to get back up when life knocks me down.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Perhaps I am the only one with this perception, but you write frequently about difficult incidents in your past that paint you as a victim – at least at that time. How we deal with having been victims differs for all of us, I guess. For me it means, putting it behind me once and for all, and striving to always look to the future. You dwell on yours. I’m not qualified to say which approach is better.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I don’t “dwell” on mine. I most often offer them simply as information or as inspiration about that which can be overcome.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yes, I was a victim during some of the experiences in my past. However, I am no longer a victim to my past.

            I don’t “dwell on” my experiences. I share my experiences, as well as my personal healing journey, and the tools I and others have found successful on our healing journeys. The sharing of these things are to provide hope, and there’s no re-victimizing going on when I share.

            My healing journey mostly occurred when the issues of incest, torture, brainwashing, priest molestation, date rape, sexual assault, abusive relationships, and their related mental health issues were taboo. I therefore walked that journey with little support. I’m desiring that by sharing I might help bring the issues out of the closet, inspire others, and assure them that they’re not alone. I do it to help others.

            If you choose to read it any other way, that’s on you, not me.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Is this the right forum to offer such experiences? It may be. Just asking. Do any of the people here have issues like this in their closets that they are afraid to address? I don’t get the idea that a lot of people here have had these experiences, so I’m not sure what benefit you think you are providing by sharing them. They certainly don’t fill me with hope, but then, most of my abuse was intellectual, rather than physical, and I’m well over it.

            You say you don’t dwell on them, but you bring them up again and again. I’ve been here for a few years, and you’ve brought them up repeatedly. I’m no shrink, that’s for sure, but you seem to me, to be crying out for sympathy. Normally, I would never mention personal issues like this, but you’ve made them a part of this blog; so presumably they must be open to discussion. I understand that I could have your motivation wrong, but that’s why I’m asking. I personally get no sense of “hope” from your sharing. The constant repetition leads me to feel like you are still looking for hope yourself.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I can only say that your “senses” and “feelings” about why I share my history and healing are way off base. In fact, out of all the places I post about them, you are the only person who has consistently and persistently insisted on having those “senses” and “feelings.” Most often the reaction I get when I share my history and healing is to be told how inspirational it is that I not only was able to live through it and deal with my issues around it all, but also able to do so to the point where I’ve found gratitude and unconditional love and compassion.

            Since (as I’ve said before) my thoughts, words and actions are my Spirituality expressed, then yes, I feel a site about Spirituality is an appropriate forum for me to express that part of my Spirituality. I will continue to share what I feel is appropriate unless and until Neale says otherwise. You certainly have the choice to not read or reply to any post you feel is inappropriate.

            My question would be why, out of all the years I’ve written about my history and healing, and out of all the different types of places I’ve shared them, you are the only person who has not only failed to see the inspiration, but also feels compelled to say so repeatedly?

            I’m no psychiatrist, either, but… methinks thou dost protest too much.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Probably because I’m the only one with the courage to do so. Most people would probably be worried about hurting your feelings, or having you lash out at them for questioning you. In any event, since you put your personal experiences up for grabs to the public in this forum, I can say whatever I want about them. You clearly still have issues. You mentioned antidepressants….

            Why are you pretty much the only person to share such personal experiences here? What I’ve observed over the years, is that when a new person shows up here and becomes active, it’s only a matter of time before we will see Annie trot out her horrid experiences. You may not be aware that you do that.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            ROFLMFAO! You seem to think you’re the only person I’ve ever shared my experiences and healing with that has courage?

            The women (and some men) that I’ve had the privilege to meet on my healing journey and who I’ve walked with on theirs are some of the most courageous people I’ve ever known. They already experienced hell while they were being abused or assaulted, then turned around and voluntarily walked back through it in order to heal. You’re just confronting my comments here on this one site. Easy peasy in comparison. Try again.

            I have a genetically based chemical imbalance in my brain for which I take medication that is a reuptake inhibitor, causing my brain to produce more of what it needs to run efficiently and effectively, biologically speaking. You, being a physical brain scientific type guy, would surely understand that doesn’t mean I “clearly still have issues.” Pfffft… that’s one you really fell flat on.

            Yes, you can certainly say what you want about my experiences and healing. Go ahead. I’ve been involved in my own and other’s experiences and healing journeys for about 25 years now. You’re at such an immature stage that you still think you can make assumptions like the one above about my being on antidepressants (which, BTW, have many off-label uses as well). You’re an amateur when it comes to me and my life. I’m a master at it.

            What you have seen in my comments here is my own evolution in the five stages of truth telling:

            1. Tell the truth about yourself to yourself.
            2. Tell the truth about another to yourself.
            3. Tell the truth about yourself to another.
            4. Tell the truth about another to that other.
            5. Tell the truth to everyone about everything.

            I’m simply being me, telling the truth I’ve experienced. I don’t exclude my own challenging experiences, the healing process I’ve been through, or what I’ve learned by walking with others on theirs. Why should I? It’s what led me to my Spirituality. It’s relevant.

            Don’t like it? Complain to Neale about it. Flag my posts. But don’t think for one moment that what you’re doing is unique (there’s not one in every bunch, but I’ve come across a few) or that I can’t handle it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            You’re misrepresenting my points. I never said anything about the struggles you presumably went through – I’m only asking why you are so adamant about sharing them with everyone here. I am willing to admit that you may have had difficult times that required courage to get through – but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about why you are so driven to share them here, on a forum where other people don’t appear to be suffering from childhood abuse, etc., and thus have little to gain from your stories. Perhaps you should hang out in a Catholic blog where there may be lots of victims who will appreciate your stories.

            OK, so you have a chemical imbalance, that doesn’t change my statement that you still have issues. A chemical imbalance is an issue.

            I haven’t suggested that you stop sharing your angst, only questioned why you do it. Your defensiveness tells a story in and of itself. I am not about to ask Neale to stop your posts or anyone else’s. I don’t think I ever claimed I was doing anything unique – though on this forum, I am the primary representative for the scientific method, and you hate that, don’t you? It was so much easier before I began presenting the science that debunks all the woo discussed on this site. It’s upsetting. I get that. Deal with it. You may “awaken.”

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Struggles I “presumably” went through? “Willing to admit” that I “may have” had difficult times? Wow. What a concession. I’m completely underwhelmed.

            I’m talking about sharing the experiences I’ve had that have played a role in shaping my Spirituality. Many people have found my experiences and healing journey inspirational. I share them wherever and whenever I feel called to do so. That you don’t find them inspirational doesn’t really matter.

            A chemical imbalance is not the same thing as “having an issue.” I have a physical condition.

            I don’t share it as “angst.” You read it that way. (I wonder why?) I don’t “hate” that you consider yourself to be “the primary representative for the scientific method.” I know this because I don’t hate. Period.

            I was awakened long before I met you here. Deal with that.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Sorry but I need to hear the other side of the story. We only get your side.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            My Mama’s passed, so you can’t grill her on what went on in our home. My father lives in Tucson, or he used to. I’m not sure if he’s dead or alive. Want his name? I’ll even give you the address. Of course, it would still be my word against his. Last I confronted him, he denied everything, but he’s got a lot of mental health issues. Think Trump and you’ll have a pretty good idea about him. He’d talk down to you and claim that the worst thing he ever did was to give us kids the impression that we weren’t important by leaving (if he’s still using the same old schtick). Personally, I think it’s the best thing he ever did for us kids.

            My eldest sister can’t back up my experiences because she’s untrustworthy. She’s an addict and a prostitute who claims she doesn’t remember my father living with us at all, even though she was 14 when he left, and she’s been suicidal most of her life. I’m not sure what last name she’s using. Last I heard, she was on her fifth marriage. I don’t know where she’s living. Or if.

            My eldest brother didn’t witness my experiences, but he did witness similar experiences of the middle girl. In fact, he rescued her more than once. He’s in New Mexico, I believe, but he refuses to talk about my father. In fact, for years before the laws changed, he was planning to kill my father and do a bit of time in a State Hospital before being pronounced healthy enough to leave. Now, he’d be sent to prison for the remainder of his sentence. Several of us were willing to be witnesses for him at trial.

            My middle sister you can find on the other coast of Florida somewhere, and she’d not only back up some of my experiences but could validate some of them with her own that were similar. But she and I had a falling out about my disability, so I’m not sure she’d want to discuss me. I know she doesn’t like discussing my father, but she’s capable of a lot of talking once her anger kicks in. I’m not sure what last name she’s using—last I heard, she was on her third marriage.

            The middle boy didn’t witness much, if anything, as he was a silent recluse in his room. He moved to Dallas right out of college, but we don’t keep in touch. His memory isn’t very reliable, though, as neither he or the next youngest brother remember my father breaking their noses in front of other family members (I witnessed both instances). I’m not sure where the younger of the two is. He moves around a lot as a civilian for the Army. He’s difficult to understand as he has cerebral palsy, but he could type out a statement about some of what went on in our home. As I said, though, he’s blocked my father having slammed his face into the ceramic tile wallof our kitchen, breaking his nose and cheekbone.

            My baby brother, bless him, was the one that got away. He could tell you what I shared with him when he wanted to know why everyone else has problems with my father. If he kept it, he could show you the letter I wrote him about it. He doesn’t remember living with my father, but he was only three years old when my father left.

            Want their names?

            The priest who molested me also molested other young teen girls as he rose to pastorship of the richest church in St. Louis, last I checked. If you’d like, you could check with the Archdiocese, or with SNAP, an organization that keeps records of complaints of sexual assaults by priests. You can ask him about the progressive dinner at our house where he molested me, but he’d probably deny it. I know from my therapist he’d already been reported more than once to the Archdiocese before getting his plum assignment. He was also reported multiple times to SNAP. Want his name?

            I haven’t a clue where the man who date raped me is, though when I knew him he was in northern California. I didn’t press charges, though, because back then I still believed I deserved to be beaten and raped. He insisted it wasn’t rape anyway. Want his name?

            The series of abusive relationships started in St. Louis with my brother-in-law’s younger brother. He’s probably in jail or dead, at the rate he was doing heavy drugs and mixing them with loaded guns and a motorcycle he rode recklessly as he was almost always under the influence of something. The next was in California, but as he was much older so I’m not sure he’s around anymore. (Classic reliving the abuse by a father by getting involved with a much older man.) Then I moved back home to St. Louis and focused on work, not getting into any relationships for years. Then I got involved in my last, and worst, abusive relationship—my “bottom,” as it’s called. He’s a convicted murderer, so I’d be careful with that one. Well trained to kill up close and personal by the Army. I’m not sure what he’d say. He continued to insist I was the best thing that ever happened to him, even after he married another woman a few years after I left him. I doubt he remembers too much of the beatings and rapes as he was usually drunk, or that he prostituted me out to anyone who would cover his bar tab.

            Want their names?

            I’m not afraid of you contacting any one of these people to try to “hear the other side of the story.” Feel free to investigate it with your scientific method. Just remember that you’re dealing with people, so it’s the social sciences you’ll need to focus on.

            And no response to the rest of the points in my last reply?

          • Patrick Gannon

            So, basically I was right. You speak ill of people who are not here to defend themselves – even the dead. Every word you’ve said might be true, but to say it in public again and again when the people you are disparaging are not available to speak for themselves is not what I call spiritual – but again, we have very different ideas of what that word means.

            As for why I did not offer a detailed response to your prior post, II responded to the last post with my cellphone and I can’t type for crap on that thing, so I kept it short, and besides, there was really nothing to respond to. You want to play semantic games. You have an issue – your “issue” is your condition. An issue is “an important topic or problem for debate or discussion.”

            Yes, I perceive your condition, i.e., your issue, as angst. I’m in sales. It’s my job to read people. You don’t have to agree with how I perceive you. I’m sure if I said the sky was blue, you’d insist that it’s green. Again, I would never have mentioned any of this, if you didn’t make a practice of airing your laundry in public.

            The comment about being “awake” was a play on Neale’s post about his HEBs or some superhero species being “awake.” Once again, sorry you don’t get my miserable attempts at humor; but one has to have some minimal capacity for humor to begin with. I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t try for a career as a stand-up comedian. When it comes to understanding our natural world, you are decidedly fast asleep in my humble and insignificant opinion….

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Ummm… Where did I “speak ill of the dead?” The only one I mentioned that I know for certain has passed over is my Mama, and I didn’t say anything that I think anyone could construe as speaking ill of her.

            I have offered to provide you with the names and what information I have about each person I mentioned in my family. I even included what they know or might know, or don’t know. I added what difficulties you might run into if you contacted any of them as a courtesy, so you would know what to expect.

            As for my perpetrators, I have also offered to provide you with the names and what information I have about each one. Again, I added what difficulties you might run into if you contacted any one of them, as well as what excuses they have used when I confronted them.

            How is this “speaking ill of people who are not here to defend themselves?” Their absence is only due to a lack of knowledge of this site and an invitation to be here. I’m not going to extend that invitation myself as I have no need to do so. I know what I experienced with each, and what each has said when I confronted them. You’re the doubter.

            But, just because I no longer have a need or desire to contact them, you’re certainly free to do so. I’ll give you all the information that I have so you can do precisely that, but I won’t post it. I would be happy to send it all to you in an email. You could even consider it an experiment that challenges your mind to help keep it sharp, trying to track them all down.

            As for my physical brain chemistry imbalance, it is indeed a condition. It’s not a topic or a problem, nor is it open for debate or discussion. It is a physical condition for which there is treatment, making it a non-issue. It’s simply a fact. And it’s not semantics. It’s accuracy. I would think someone who relies so heavily on science would want accuracy. Guess I was wrong—again.

            I don’t care how you perceive me or the events in my life, or how or why I present them. However, there are words that carry stigma. Two of those words are “issue” instead of “condition,” and “angst” when I relate a challenge, my healing from it, and the benefits and gifts from having done so. So is the phrase “airing your laundry in public” when I’m simply speaking truth.

            There are issues in this country that have long needed to be aired instead of being shoved into the back of a dark closet. I intentionally bring them into the light so that my country can heal from its deeply buried issues, like the prevalence of incest, torture, brainwashing, and sexual assault in America. This is not the only place where I carry out my calling. I also do so on all the social media platforms of which I’m a member and in my writing.

            Believe whatever you want. You always do, and your opinion of me is pretty near the bottom of what I care about. I do, however, care about accuracy and words that carry stigma.

            I got your play on words. You didn’t get that I tossed it right back at you. You must’ve been napping. And you believe that you know me…

          • Patrick Gannon

            You don’t get my point. None of those people are here to defend themselves. You are speaking ill of them, while they have no opportunity to respond. It’s not our job to prove your assertions – it’s your job. You are the one making the claims. Frankly, I don’t really doubt all of them, but I question the ethics of discussing them in a public forum when only one side can be presented.

            I guess it’s just how we were raised. I was raised not to air my personal laundry in public. I was also raised not to make accusations against people who weren’t there to defend themselves. Nobody else shares such intimate personal details about their trials and tribulations as you do, so I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that others share my notions of ethical behavior.

            Since you want to play semantics…. “It is a physical condition for which there is treatment, making it a non-issue.” No, it’s still an issue. If you stop the medication, the condition will deteriorate, right? That means it’s still an issue; one that is being treated. The definition, as noted above is: “an important topic or problem for debate or discussion.” You repeatedly make it a topic for discussion. That makes it an issue.

            I understand your point about opening doors to closets, but do you think there are a lot of people on this forum who aren’t aware of those closet doors already; and perhaps some of us helped to open them by voting for representatives who would bring about change? Who here do you feel needs to be educated on these things? Who among us has been living in the middle of a third world country with no access to modern issues? Sorry, Annie, but I don’t buy it. I don’t hear you using your experiences in this way. I hear a cry for sympathy…

            I would say that I know you don’t care what I think, when I question your motives, but you must care, since you go out of your way to keep these conversations going. You chastised me above for not responding to all the points in the previous post, so you must care what I think, despite saying you don’t – otherwise why ask for my input? You spoke of accuracy, but I don’t know what I’ve said that was inaccurate, so enlighten me.

            Unless you want to keep this going for some reason, I think it’s time to let it go. We have different ideas about ethical behavior and spirituality. You air your laundry here, so I asked why you do it. You responded, more or less, that it makes you feel spiritual. I can’t wrap myself around that definition of spiritual, but as you said, we all get to define that word as we choose. I asked. You responded. I think we’re done unless someone else wants to jump in with a comment or observation.

            To the blog: Are Annie’s repeated testimony about her (alleged) horrific experiences something beneficial in our discussions? We never really discuss them in detail – I suspect for most of us, it’s too uncomfortable to delve that deeply into someone else’s personal life. Heck, I’m uncomfortable when asked to dig into a woman’s purse for her keys! Does anyone gain anything from this stuff? If so, how? I’m really interested, and since Annie makes her personal life a topic for discussion, maybe we should drop our social barriers and dive in?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            It isn’t that I don’t get your point. It’s that I consider it to be moot. You see it as “speaking ill of them” while I see it as speaking truth. Is it unethical to speak the truth?

            I was raised to keep the family secrets, first under threat of physical harm to myself or those I loved, then under threat of being ostracized by some of that same family. Keeping those secrets increased exponentially the effects of what I lived through. But, thanks to maturing and desiring society to change, I stopped keeping those secrets. My choice, not yours, and rather judgmental of you to think I should live to your standards rather than my own.

            What I’m doing by replying is explaining and defending myself. If you can’t see that you’re an antagonist who posts things that require the rest of us to do so, that’s on you, not me. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to skew my motives or my facts.

            I didn’t say it makes me feel Spiritual. I said that the healing process is a large part of what led me to develop my Spirituality.

            Bipolar Disorder II (mixed episodes, hypomania) is a condition. Look it up in the DSM. It’s not an issue. You’re using loaded words, as I think you’re well aware.

            I haven’t gone out of my way to keep this conversation going. You’re the one who started it, and I’ve been responding to your questions and correcting your inaccuracies. Since you’re not willing to take me up on my offer, yes, this conversation is done.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I could say some very rough things about a family member, but I would never, never, never do that on a public forum, as that person would have no opportunity to respond. You do whatever you feel is “Spiritual” Annie. We have different definitions- we’ve already agreed on that. I don’t like your definition but you do what you want and let people think what they will. I’m not forcing you to live up to my standards, but since you share your experiences over and over again, I feel like I’m justified in commenting on them. You made them a topic for discussion, after all.

            “I didn’t say it makes me feel Spiritual. I said that the healing process is a large part of what led me to develop my Spirituality.”

            Geez. Keep working at it. I don’t see you as very spiritual – but then we have different definitions. Part of it is that you aren’t “spiritual,” you are “Spiritual” which must be a different definition, that I don’t care for.

            I have an “issue.” I have a knee that likes to act up, and prevents me from running long distances until I work through it. That is, my knee has a “condition.” I address this “condition” by exercising, massaging, stretching, and occasional ibuprofen, just as you address your “issue” by taking drugs for your “condition.” The “issue” is always there, because if I don’t keep up with the regimen, the “condition” will return, just as your “issue” will return if you don’t keep up with the regimen for your “condition.” (So silly to be debating this, but it’s fun for me).

            “Since you’re not willing to take me up on my offer, yes, this conversation is done.”

            Sorry? Offer? What offer? What did I miss?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            What you say is up to you. I believe in speaking the truth.

            I care not one whit whether you see me as Spiritual as you’ve made it clear you don’t believe in Spirituality. One who doesn’t accept Spirituality isn’t really in a place to judge whether others are Spiritual or not. I don’t consider your judgments to be Spiritual. And, so?

            As I explained before, my capitalizations are habit. Upper or lower case makes no difference to me. But it’s in my tablet’s dictionary capitalized and, since it doesn’t seem to matter to anyone but you, I’m not going to go out of my way to change it.

            If you have an issue, then you have an issue. I have a condition as defined in the DSM.

            THIS OFFER:

            “I have offered to provide you with the names and what information I have about each person I mentioned in my family. I even included what they know or might know, or don’t know. I added what difficulties you might run into if you contacted any of them as a courtesy, so you would know what to expect.

            “As for my perpetrators, I have also offered to provide you with the names and what information I have about each one. Again, I added what difficulties you might run into if you contacted any one of them, as well as what excuses they have used when I confronted them.

            “How is this ‘speaking ill of people who are not here to defend themselves?’ Their absence is only due to a lack of knowledge of this site and an invitation to be here. I’m not going to extend that invitation myself as I have no need to do so. I know what I experienced with each, and what each has said when I confronted them. You’re the doubter.

            “But, just because I no longer have a need or desire to contact them, you’re certainly free to do so. I’ll give you all the information that I have so you can do precisely that, but I won’t post it. I would be happy to send it all to you in an email. You could even consider it an experiment that challenges your mind to help keep it sharp, trying to track them all down.”

          • Patrick Gannon

            I don’t believe in spiritual woo. I embrace spirituality in the sense that Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson do.

            You are the one making claims. It’s not my job to prove your claims.

            I consider your speaking of others who are not here to defend themselves as reprehensible. You don’t. So let’s drop it and move on. We’re different people with different ethics and morals.

          • Patrick Gannon

            It is not my job to prove your claims. You don’t get that this is an ethical issue. Let’s drop it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Annie you talk about things you allege other people have done to you, but they are not here to defend themselves. I, for one, would not make harsh accusations against people who have no opportunity to defend themselves; but you go ahead and do whatever you find to be most spiritual. We’ve already agreed we have different definitions.

            I’m inclined to believe you had some bad experiences in your life, but that’s as far as I’ll go. I don’t know you personally. I have no evidence for any of your accusations, and none of these people are available to defend themselves. It’s not something I, and apparently most others here, would do, so I have wondered aloud here, why you do it. You’ve responded. It makes you feel spiritual. Fine. Case closed.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            It’s been my experience, and the experience of others I’ve known, that it’s by resolving the emotions around traumatic experiences that one “moves on” and can conceive of a future that’s not uncontrollable, while also gaining strengths and wisdom. How removing them would heal those emotions just makes no sense to me.

            I’ve always had memories of some of the abuse that were compartmentalized without any emotions attached. It’s a natural defense mechanism. They were like still photographs or silent movies for which I had no attachment. It was by reattaching those emotions that I was able to heal. How removing the emotions from a traumatic event would help one heal I find questionable because it’s our feelings about our experiences that need to be healed, as well as our thoughts about it.

            I know several people who would prefer to live in their victimhood because they either gain something from it (some are “users” when it comes to other people), or they’re not ready to do their work. It took me until my early 30’s to reach such a low that I seriously worked on healing. Some never reach that point of motivation to change—including in my own family (last I heard). In fact, I was the first to do so, breaking the silence.

            I can see where science could surely help more people with those conditions classified as mental illnesses that are actually imbalances in brain chemistry—seratonin, norepinephrine and dopamine have been identified as underlying some cases of Clinical Depression, Bipolar Disorder, and even Schizoaffective Disorder.

            However, there’s a whole other issue there as drugs are rushed to the market with minimal testing on small groups and usually no long term studies (as in years). Even doctors and psychiatrists I’ve known consider a medication to be “in beta” until it’s been on the market for ten years.

            Have you ever read a monograph (the physician’s information, not the patient’s) for psychiatric medications these days? Patient study groups can be as small as 100 people, and “long-term” follow-up can be as short as one year. Part of each is a chemical description of the makeup of the medication, followed by a description of how it works. For most I’ve read for psychiatric medications, this description often simply says that the means whereby the effect gained by the medication is unknown, although it may be “believed to be” through affecting a particular part of the brain. That, to me, doesn’t sound scientific at all, but more like guesswork.

            For the pleasure of being a guinea pig for the FDA and pharmaceutical companies’ new medications, which are only available as brand name and often in a “nonpreferred” status on insurance formularies, patients pay the highest copay, usually 33% of the cost contracted by the insurance company. For my latest antidepressant, for example, my copay is $75 for a one month supply. My medications for my physical conditions, on the other hand, are usually at no cost.

            I do believe that working with reframing the traumatic experience is a very useful tool. Often victims don’t acknowledge that they were powerless—because they were physically outsized, they were physically subdued, they were threatened, or they froze (rather than fighting or fleeing). Acknowledgement of that powerlessness removes much of the shame and guilt that are often felt by victims. When it’s a sexual assault, victims often feel responsible until they understand both their powerlessness and that, regardless of the circumstances—what they wore, how they interacted with the perpetrator beforehand, their history of promiscuity, even their being in a relationship with their perpetrator—they still did nothing to ask to be assaulted. Reframing the memories with that knowledge is incredibly helpful in healing. But I’m not sure how this relates to neuroplasticity. The memory remains the same.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Like I said, “erase” is not the right word. The idea, as I understand it, is to tamp down the emotions so that the event can be examined and dealt with. That’s not possible when the emotions are so overwhelming that the brain can’t deal with them.

            Hey, nobody is forcing you to seek treatment that might work. You don’t like that science makes guesses – but that’s how the process works. Someone makes a guess about how something might work. They do some research, maybe run a couple experiments and if the guess has legs, they come up with a hypothesis, and then they go to work on that, attempting to disprove the hypothesis on the one hand, and to see if the hypothesis makes predictions that can be tested on the other. If the predictions and testing work out the hypothesis becomes a theory, and then they try to break the theory, and if they can’t do that, then theory is said to be valid, and can be relied on to provide accurate results.

            We didn’t know why aspirin worked or anaesthetics, and so forth, but over time, these things get figured out, and in the meantime they help a lot of people. You don’t have to be one of them. I suppose one’s capacity for taking risks enters into the equation. Not everyone is willing to step out of a shell.

            You go on to speak of powerlessness, and the need to understand and release that debilitating emotion, but if your emotions are so wrapped up that you can’t make that breakthrough, drugs like MDMA may put your brain in a state, such that this work can take place. The drug does not replace counseling – it empowers it and makes it more successful – apparently very successful according to results.

            “Reframing the memories with that knowledge is incredibly helpful in healing. But I’m not sure how this relates to neuroplasticity. The memory remains the same.”

            Reframing the memory with new knowledge DOES create a new memory. Every time you pull up a memory, you re-write it; and if you re-write it with knowledge that changes the character of the memory, you are changing the memory. That is what neuroplasticity is all about – changing the memory, breaking the old connection network and creating a new one that is not as debilitating.

            “Neuroplasticity, also called brain plasticity, is the process in which your brain’s neural synapses and pathways are altered as an effect of environmental, behavioral, and neural changes. When it comes to neuroplasticity, the brain is a lot like film. When you photograph a picture, of say, a mountain, you’re exposing the film to new information. It reacts to the light, and its makeup changes in order to record the image of that mountain. In the same way, your brain’s makeup changes when it’s exposed to new information, so that it may retain that information.” (Study dot com, “What is Neuroplasticity? – Definition & Concept”

          • Craig

            What a dreadful why to be raised… How much wrong do we do others by forcing our views upon them.
            Keep up the positive approach it will have a ripple effect where it is needed.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Thank you, Craig, for your compassion. Fortunately, my father, who’s the one that told me these things, left us when I was seven. He’s severely mentally ill, I found out later. I had an incredible Mama who, in her own way, tried to minimize the damage after he left. Then in my 30’s, I had an incredible therapist.

            There’s no going back there anymore, except to share as an example of what people do to their children and how it’s possible to heal and rise above it.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            We can certainly re-learn and neural pathways can be rerouted when needed. I wish it were so easy to correct other problems.
            I was taught… it can imply childhood, and might have in your thoughts and triggered a memory. You may share anything you wish whenever you wish. I will not be the one bashing you for it. Sometimes remembering can be the best way to forget, and things that can not be forgotten become easier on the person when remembering. You have come to a healing point to realize none of it was true. You are not a spawn of Satan, just another human being with a really $hitie experience. I had some healing to do as well after becoming an adult. Oh, I became an adult about 6 years ago. I was like a shallow outhouse at a crowded campground. I got rid of the build up but the smell still lingers at times. We always know deep inside that we are worth more than someone’s opinions may state. You always had you to keep you sane enough through it all. At times it’s truly all we have, hence the prayer, “Lord, give me strength.”

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I think most of us could use a good therapist if we were negatively influenced by our parents or our family’s religion. Which means most of us who were raised traditionally here in America.

            Thank you, dear friend, for understanding about remembering. And, after my therapy, I actually became more child-like for a while, after having felt like an adult since I was seven. For the first time in a very long time, I actually giggled like a little girl. I felt that there was a whole new world to explore with fresh eyes.

            For myself, I discovered much more that caused me to stop in awe than there was to be distressed about. Life has changed much since then, but I still have those moments of awe.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            In this new world which began it’s change with the industrial movement, there are people who keep saying we need to embrace the change. Accepting some change should be something we are willing to do, but the amount of change that is occurring today is just scary. The human mind isn’t set up, not to be confused with designed, to handle this amount of change in such a short amount of time. The changes are coming so fast that a state of homeostasis is nearly impossible. Humans need it in order to heal or even know they are healing. There’s a reason we have such a need for therapist these days, who are there to help the mind return to the homeostasis that doesn’t exist. therapists are seeing therapists who are seeing therapists. It’s pretty vicious. I had the roll of being the oldest child so being a child wasn’t big in my parents concern for me. I had to be a parent until they got home to tell me how childish I was being. I actually told my mother that once. “How do you expect me to be? I’m only a year older than one of your children that your sure cannot take care of himself. He’s as capable as I am.” She explained to me how much more responsible I was, then the circle continued.
            When we become adults, we are either doomed to be our parents all over again or we become just the opposite. The problem is we can’t be different because we don’t know how. Our only options are do or don’t. Different hasn’t been defined unless we had other mentors, and learning from our peers can be worse than our parents.
            I was just working through some of my own crap lol. The point is we do need some help to sort it all out at times. Saying I love; “If childhood is supposed to be our happiest years, why do we spend the rest of our lives trying to get over it.”

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Yes, change is inevitable, but the pace at which it’s hitting us has most certainly quickened. Unfortunately, as the need for that sense of balance increases, helping agencies are able to help less and less. I can’t afford to see what my HMO Medicare Advantage Plan considers a therapist—gotta be a PhD or MD, which leaves out a lot of really good LCSW’s. I can see those at the helping agency where I see my psychiatrist, but I can only get appointments about six weeks apart even though he’d like to see me more often. So much happens in a month and a half that I just decided to wing it on my own, instead of his spending half my session trying to remember who I am. I’ve done self-therapy before. I’ve certainly heard all the questions before.

            I was fortunate to run into some of the most caring, supportive people throughout my life. Some were teachers, some I met socially, and then there was that intensive therapy for a couple years, so I got very lucky. Before therapy, I was so much the opposite of both my parents that most people didn’t even notice me. I now have aspects of my Mama—her compassion, her self-reliance whenever possible, her intelligence… I hope that all I have left of my father is genetics. “I’m gonna wash that man right out of my brain!” (to garble an old show tune).

            You work on all the crap you want or need to until Neale says otherwise. You add a unique perspective to the conversation that at least I, for one, appreciate!

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            What compelling, objective evidence do you have for this god?

            Why should we give any more credence to your god than to Neale and his god, particularly when we know now that gods can have absolutely no affect on us in this natural world? We’ve ruled out the existence of any forces that can affect us in this world we live in.

            I really don’t understand the references to Hell, as that’s a Christian tradition. Jews went to Sheol, which was not a place of punishment, and at the end of time, they were to be wakened and judged (according to some Jews – others thought you were simply dead forever). After being judged, you would be rewarded with a renewed garden paradise, or simply destroyed. It took the “good news” of Jesus to give us eternal torment in Hell. There are four words translated to the pagan word “Hell” in the bible, and in the OT, every single one of them is the word “Sheol.” The NT gave us Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus – a dump, and paganism. The bible makes it pretty clear that Jews believed that their god punished them in this world, for their own sins, and those of their fathers. As best I can recall, only the forged book of Daniel refers to a punishing afterlife. It’s one of the latest books in the OT, and it illustrates how the concept was evolving. Christianity picked it up from there.

            How did the tribe of Levites come into being? Mythical Aaron, the brother of the mythical Moses, built a golden calf for the people to worship while the big Mo communed with the Big Guy. When the Big Guy learned they were worshipping an idol he was royally bent, and He punished Aaron for creating the idol by making him the head cleric, the leader of the Levites. Is that the kind of punishment we can look forward to? The first thing Aaron did was implement sacrifices, with the guts being burnt and offered to Yahweh who loved the smell, and the clerics getting the rest. It’s a scam.

            What does come through in your post, is the thing the Abrahamic religions are most famous for – FEAR. We must fear the Abrahamic gods because they are wrathful psychopaths. How fortunate that none of them are real.

          • Jethro

            Is your information about the Jews from the Bible?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Which part? The story of Aaron and the golden calf is definitely from the bible. See Exodus 32. It’s a terrible story. As punishment…

            ““This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.”

            The Church translated four words to the pagan word “Hell” which is of German origin. In the OT, they translated “Sheol” to “Hell.” In the OT, everyone good and bad alike goes to Sheol. This is confirmed in many passages. The only OT book that even hints at punishment is Daniel, one of the last written. Jews did not believe in a punishing Hell. There were two schools of thought – either you were dead forever, or you were awakened and judged – but if found wanting, you were destroyed – there is no talk in the OT of an eternal torment. That is a Christian concept, and it turns Jesus into the most evil god ever invented. In the NT, however the words they translated were “Gehenna” the Jerusalem town dump of which Jesus spoke allegorically 11 times, “Hades” which is clearly pagan, given that Hades is the brother of Zeus and Poseidon, and “Tartarus” is the bottom layer of Hades, which most theologians say is reserved for Satan and his demon buddies. (Have you ever asked yourself – if heaven and Yahweh were so bloody wonderful, why did Satan and his dudes bail out? It couldn’t have been THAT wonderful!)

            Actually, Aaron was made the head priest before the golden calf incident, but he wasn’t removed from his post for creating an idol – he was given more power. As high priest he went into the “holy of holies” in the tabernacle. Think of him as Pope Aaron.

          • Craig

            You did your research well. Sounds like the Hebrew root teachings principle.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I can’t remember how many years it has been since I read the bible cover to cover for the first time. It led to my “awakening.”

          • Jethro

            Never mind..

          • Craig

            Some rabbinic views mentioned in Patrick’s response. Visit the website on Hebrew Root Teachings they have free PDFs that explain some of these views as aligned with the NT.

          • Jethro

            I checked out a few Hebrew root teaching sites, seems to be more who’s right and who’s wrong arguments. I checked out the Higgs Boson on Wikipedia. I looked at things related to Archangel Metatron, Angel of Life. It’s a lot to take in for one day. I’ll probably keep reading personal views and learning a little at a time. I care that all people have thoughts and ideas about life and their meaning of it, all views are important because its what carries a person through life in their version of what’s best. I don’t have to understand every view, just make peace with mine. All views are wrong or right, ask anyone. That’s the truth.
            Thanks for the reference.

          • Craig

            Thank you for sharing, we seem to some how have similar views concerning life, earth and worship. But may well still find out that we differ more than others. That is great as it just broadens our views as youyou have said.

          • Jethro

            Craig, one of the most wonderful things to ever exist is differences. We are all pretty much different but the same. As for biblical knowledge, I have found that many people know a whole lot more than I do. I consider myself to be in a state of constant learning and my views about all of this could change tomorrow. The more we know… the more we know.

          • Craig

            And how frustrating the differences make us at times.
            I learnt that the more I know the less I actually truly know.

          • Jethro

            Answer to both… Now that’s a fact.

          • Kristen

            Ive told you before, God has proven Himself to me time and time again, Im at 100% faith that you cant shake.
            If God doesnt prove His existance to you, then sorry, but thats between you and God.
            Said with a smile.
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            That’s the difference between us. If you had sufficient evidence to prove your God existed, I would accept him; but you are saying that no amount of evidence I could ever provide for the other side would ever be accepted by you. That’s very sad to me. A waste of intellect.

            So, since your god failed to prove his existence to me – and indeed led me down a path that disproves Yahweh, at least, will he send me to eternal torment for taking the path he led me down?

            You didn’t answer my questions about Hell. You seem to believe in it, while almost all Jews do not.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “the OT clearly seperates (sic) sins from crimes. ”

            How so? Can you provide scripture to support this?

          • Kristen

            No bible or Torah on hand but generally in Leviticus. The consequences God wanted in place are stated, but you’ll note the ones that were ‘forgiveable’ with an offering have the word sin against them, the ones requiring other consequences are defined as Laws that were not forgiveable with offerings and dont use the word sin, they carry other consequences and are the core basis of our legal systems.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Every other passage in Leviticus refers to sin. I’m pretty sure sins include the laws:

            “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible.” Lev 5:17

            The “Lord’s commands” include all the laws, right?

            Actually, I think a good part of our legal system comes from Genesis, which, when analyzed, is the story of the development of the law and legal system. Yahweh actually has to learn how to be just. He doesn’t know from the get go (and obviously he never really got it!) An excellent book on the subject is Alan Dershowitz “The Genesis of Justice.”

          • Craig

            The biblical laws as I understand them are the definitions of different sins. Earlier societies used these as the basis for their legislations with a few generating from the Roman Dutch principles or better known as humanistic common law… Tit for tat principle.

          • Craig

            Need to think about a proper reply…

      • For me the answer is to first, find your inner peace, keep it, sustain it. Let all your decisions/actions come forth from that state of being.

        • Craig

          I agree 100%. And then we should help others achieve the same.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Many people don’t understand that inner peace takes maintenance. Some expect some bolt of lightening experience to first give them inner peace and that, once it’s happened, it will stay without effort. Thanks for saying it the way you did.

    • Kristen

      Hi Marko.
      Yip, nuts!
      Poor Annie is in the path now, near Tampa. Quake off Mexico today I think, we got a tsunami warning in NZ across the pacific..which is usually a 30cm wave! Plus another huge storm is a day and a half behind Irma.
      Lets hope the movie The Day After Tomorrow doesnt happen as well!
      K

      • Jethro

        30cm wave? That’s almost 12 inches. Is that a bad thing or does it stir up a little extra food for the shore feeders? The media needs to ride the drama wave of Irma before jumping to the other one, the chance they might get an award for outstanding reporting relies on Irma right now. When they don’t win the award they will try harder on the next. The Day After Tomorrow? Lol, we need to cool a bit before we get tossed in the freezer!

        Sending my best wishes to Annie, Pats family, and all people who couldn’t make it out of the path of this very dangerous storm.

        • Craig

          Ditto

        • Kristen

          We get tsunami warnings all the time, being on the pacific ring of fire, always treated as a joke. Im probably about 200m above sea level although near the sea. There are constant tsunami, fire, quake etc ads on TV, we all get confused as to all the instructions. My neighbour and I joke that we’ll get so confused that we’ll follow all instructions no matter what happens. So put on a fluro vest, grab the dining room table and run past the 6 houses with the table over our heads to the top of our hill, then stop, drop and roll. Someone will rescue us eventually…the local evacuation civil defense and emergency community hall is just through a park, a 3 min walk.
          No doubt we’ll have to take it all serious one day…as the wind blows crazy and its colder in spring now than winter, we’ve had hail twice today already. Are you in Texas? Do I need to snoop online for you as well as Annie?
          K

          • Jethro

            Snoop? I’m almost willing to let you, just to see your answer. I’ll save you some time though, I’m in southeast Missouri. I’ll probably get some breezes and rain from a dying Irma. I can just picture a couple women running down the road with a dinning room table. Portable shelter!! I love it.

          • Kristen

            Hahaha..not that kind of snoop, I said FOR you not AT you….just weather watching! Im been diligently watching the FEMA sites etc for a status change so Biscuit could go to a shelter..unfortunately we knew when you were all sleeping. Just soooooo glad Annie could still get into a shelter, or better have! All just so scary, are school halls even safe? Fingers crossed, all we can do now.
            I think Im in a hurricane now, wind is shaking the house, or probably the deck bolted to the house.
            Re our table plan…one problem..I think get under the table is the quake instruction, probably not the tsunami one, or fire. Oh well, at least we have a plan! In the last little quake I stood in front of my tall cabinet full of glassware so it couldnt fall over…now thats smart! Not!

          • Jethro

            Oh, whoops, getting tired, 10 pm here and passed my desired bed time. I’m glad to hear she’s going to a shelter with her biscuit. Schools are generally safe havens here for tornadoes but I have no idea what they are doing down there. Two different worlds.

            South, southeast of you looks pretty rough, wind coming out of the south west depending on your terrain. Keep your table handy but you should be ok with a fold out card table this time. Hold the China hutch from the side. Oh, if it falls, let go!!

            Your doing a wonderful thing keeping an eye out for others… thank you. Have a good… day. It’s our bedtime.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            My eldest sister used to live down in the bootheel. Now I understand your Jethroisms a bit better. At least you sound wise, where she simply parrotted the wisdom she was hearing from the old-timers down there. 😉

            Growing up in St. Louis, we never considered ourselves northerners or southerners. We were St. Louisans, as if separate from the rest of the state. 😀

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            I am a Californian, born and raised. Family is from this area dating back to 1850 something. I don’t dare marry from this area without doing a little research first, whoops! its 2017… I don’t dare to try and reproduce in this area, kids might be a little strange. I have family in St. Louis that I haven’t seen in years. What town was she near in the bootheel.?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I had to laugh that I’d be asked a question about the eldest. Out of us seven, she’s the one who I never heard of unless she needed something. I know she kicked around the Farmington area only because I got a call from the Sheriff asking permission to get into her purse for some phone numbers as she was incoherently “on” something and mine was the only listing they could find. She was jailed for shooting her husband in the gluteus maximus with their shotgun when they were arguing and he turned to walk away. I know she was also down by the Cape because I had to give her a ride back home after the exhaust leak (which she knew about) knocked her out with her youngest in the car and they crashed. They flew her by chopper to the metro area because we have a hospital with bariatric chambers (force in oxygen, force out carbon dioxide).

            I poke fun, but it’s not her fault. My father did a number on each of us as we came along. She never sought treatment or therapy or even acceptance about things others witnessed that happened to her. She’s the one eventually banned from knowing my phone number or address after a while because she kept giving it to my father. She nearly raised me and I love her… from a distance.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

      • I’d love to see a global prayer visualization meditation around these events, with several spiritual leaders giving it. James Twyman has done this, James Redfield use to do by monthly world prayer visualizations dealing with trouble spots of the world. As far as I know neither has done anything recently.

        Neale calls this the “Multiplier Effect” where you utilize the collective be it smaller or global concentrations to create specific end results.

        • Kristen

          In Kabbalah things are defined as the Mass Mind of humanity or the collective will, a bit like a democratic Law of Attraction, that defines the world at any time, that apparently the Universe has to comply with.
          Apparently it works in smaller areas as well as on a global scale. The concept is that if people as a majority or in generaly have no will to live, then famines and things will be in place to eauthenaise (sorry, cant spell it). Or like New York where its wealth based, its allowed to happen, or people wanting constant access to booze and drugs to get high, areas where people want to be in gangs etc.
          When these things kick in its hard for others to help as they are going against the freewill of a majority. There are huge amounts of natural disaster lovers, storm chasers, people loving to help like the red cross, doctors wanting exciting EDs, surfers wanting huge waves, people wanting insurance payouts for an upgrade plus many wa ting to travel as they want and do as they please, hence climate change.
          I for one would never live near areas with huge groups all wanting different things to me, even near skifields or oceans or where storm chasers lived just waiting!
          Apparently it works a bit like the fact that people will often choose a job based on what they love…many firefighters love fire etc.
          Im not sure what is and isnt true, but thats how its all defined in Kabbalah.
          K

          • It’s all quite fascinating K. The insightful imaginative speculation on such concepts can be quite absorbing. I see that the spiritual community leaders and such are only superficially touching the collective LOA abilities on a larger collective scale.

            It’s being done around the world in smaller circles and that’s great. I’d like to see it concentrated world wide in synchronization.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Any compelling, objective, empirical source information to indicate that this group meditation has had any effects at all in changing the course of events?

          What exactly is the source of the energy or force or field or whatever it is, that these meditators are leveraging in order to change physical events? How, exactly do immaterial forces affect material particles?

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Both the Evolutionary Church (meets online every week and one of its first statements is that it is a church, a synagogue, a mosque, a temple, a Sangha, etc.), and Scott Hamilton does a monthly meditation every month.

          I think there is such a thing happening, the multiplier effect included, as people meditate and pray on their own, too.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            I have proposed on this blog, multiple times, that Neale get together with his woo-buddies and organize a large-scale scientific experiment, in which hundreds of thousands – even millions of people, would have the opportunity to participate. I propose developing a meditation video or audio file that people listen to at a predetermined time, which will put people into a meditative state, that then directs these “mental powers” to stop a clock or significantly affect a random number generator, something objective, and for the whole thing to be performed according to the scientific process.

            No interest in this idea has ever been expressed, and likely never will be, because these woo-guys and gals know it won’t work. There are no mental powers that can affect physical things in our world, and physical things include the neurons that have to fire in order to change people’s minds about something, which is what these woo-believers claim to be doing. In the words of the famous Wendy’s commercial: “Where’s the beef?”

            You say they are having an affect, but where’s the empirical evidence for that? How would they ever know? What I read here on this blog, is more and more despair over the way the world is going. Look at Marko’s original post in this thread – gloom and doom. Neale is adamant that we are going in the “wrong” direction, despite there being no such thing as “wrong” or any value in judging a thing wrong – but that’s besides the point. If everything is going in the “wrong” direction, where’s your evidence for this movement, this awakening?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I don’t understand something. Maybe you can explain it to me.

            Why is it you (apparently) believe you have such influence here that your posting the challenge of an experiment (even “multiple times”) would be taken seriously by Neale, or any Spiritual leader?

            Is it your belief that Neale and Spiritual leaders should take up such a challenge posed by just one person, to prove something to just that one dogmatic science-based poster, on just one of his sites?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Sure. I’ll try.

            I can only “hope” that Neale would take the suggestion seriously, but I never expect him to do so. I was really referring to the lack of response or discussion of the idea by the participants here. Neale knows deep inside that it won’t work. I’ll wager that he would never take that risk.

            Neale has directly responded to me and the subject matter of my posts, several times, so I have reason to think that he’s aware of my proposal.

            Many so-called and self-proclaimed spiritual leaders talk about mass prayer, or mass consciousness events. I’m not suggesting anything new – only that one of these events be framed and contained within a scientific framework so it can be determined if they have any efficacy. I don’t expect any woo-meister to take the chance on proving themselves wrong; but I can certainly comment on their unwillingness to do so. Obviously, I am not the first or only person to suggest such experiments. I got the idea from somewhere else. It’s not about proving it to me; it’s about proving it to themselves – but they don’t have the confidence to do that; and they know that failure will result in bad press that will affect their bottom line ($$$).

            The better question is – why have they never attempted to prove their woo using the scientific process? I think it’s because it’s been tried on smaller scales in the lab and produces no useful results, and nobody wants to take a chance on making a fool of themselves by disproving their own beliefs in a very public way.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Ah, now you’re a mind reader. Please provide the objective, compelling evidence gathered by the scientific method in a repeatable fashion that “Neale knows deep inside that it won’t work.”

            “It’s not about proving it to me; it’s about proving it to themselves – but they [Spiritual leaders] don’t have the confidence to do that…”

            Funny, but I always thought it was because they are so confident, no scientific proof is required.

          • Patrick Gannon

            OK, so that was an opinion. One point for you! See – that’s one reason I like debating you. You keep me honest and make me think harder and more carefully, so as to avoid giving you the opportunity to ding me like that. But you got me. I left out, “in my view” or something to that effect.

            I go back and forth over whether I think Neale is deluded or a scoundrel simply putting money in the bank. I lean towards scoundrel, and would have a grudging admiration for him having pulled it off. If he’s deluded, that’s just sad, except for the harm he does in denying the science. Anyone who does that is contributing to the dumbing down of our society.

            The same applies to these other so-called spiritual leaders. Some are obviously charlatans and scoundrels; others are clearly deluded, just like clergy who believe their own BS in the major religions. Without scientific evidence (I’m not using the word “proof”) these people have nothing, and they shouldn’t be taken seriously.

    • Jethro

      It’s not a disaster movie. It’s a wake up call. Humans in their dream state are believing as usual that there is no way they could be at fault so continue to sleep believing they are awake. I’m waiting for the great awakening. Waiting in action, but waiting all the same.

      • Hi Jethro, please note I also said “Pray, visualize, mediate and take what ever inspired action to help our fellow man in what ever way we can.” To me it is a disaster movie come alive and Trump is a Batman/Superman billionaire super villain come to real life.

        A wake uP call is correct, if not obvious. I know what I can do on a individual basis. As for collective basis see my response to Kristen below as well as I added Neale’s response too above. 🙂

        Part of the great awakening is not just what we be and do individually but the collective. I too hope and visualize the tipping point sooner than later.

        • Jethro

          Disaster movie does fit as well.

    • Here is Neale’s response given by his latest weekly New Bulletin # 766

      How do we best deal with all that is going on right now? And is there any way to find any kind of peace?

      Conversations with God
      offers us a tool that we could all use. It is called
      Recontextualization. This is a process by which we see in a new way,
      place into a new context, the events of our day and time. It invites us
      to hold them in our interior experience as Gifts, opening us to a
      growing Awareness of Who We Are and Who We Choose to Be, and doing so
      much faster than we might experience in many other ways.

      For many, this may not be an easy thing to do. Yet spiritual masters
      (and those working to achieve spiritual mastery) have for centuries
      found it to be powerful in creating a new energetic signature projecting
      from them to their outer environment, and in producing a peaceful
      emotional environment in their inner world. This, in turn, has made it
      possible for them to remain serene inwardly while being incredibly
      effective outwardly in helping to alter the conditions that so many
      others are agitated about, causing those others to only add to the
      negative energy field that is upsetting them.

      Our opportunity, then, is to “see the perfection” in all that we now
      observe around us, bless it, hold it without judgment, without fear, and
      with only love, then fill our thoughts with the energy of our best
      visions and our highest intentions regarding healing or altering what we
      are encountering, thus to move ourselves and our species forward in the
      process of our own transformation.

      This whole process begins with gratitude. A word of thanks to God, for
      our very existence and the chance that it gives us to know ourselves
      experientially; and appreciation to Life Itself for creating a perfect
      platform within our Contextual Field, allowing us to see clearly what we
      choose and what we do not choose, so that we may make both individual
      and collective decisions about those things we can affect and change,
      bringing them more in line with the conditions most likely to produce
      outcomes in life that we desire.

      So this night, before going to sleep, you might offer up this thought:
      “Thank you, God, for all the circumstances of this present moment in my
      eternal life, and for the chance to experience within myself, and
      demonstrate to others, the True Nature of every human, which is Unity
      and Oneness with you as our creator, our comfort, and our companion on
      this Journey of the Soul. And help me to be a help to all others whose
      life I touch during every moment of turmoil, that they may find their
      way to inner peace, the end of struggle, and union with the Divine,
      through me.”

      • Patrick Gannon

        For some reason, I did not get the newsletter this weekend, or maybe I deleted it accidentally. It sounds like what he’s suggesting is acceptance. Accept that the world is destroying itself and consider it to be a gift. I’m not sure how well this fits with his last article that said we were going in the “wrong” direction. If all this crap is a “gift,” then how can it be the “wrong” direction?

        • Craig

          How do I subscribe for the newsletter?

          • Jethro

            http://www.cwg.org/
            Find the weekly bulletin and subscribe I think its this link;
            http://www.cwg.org/index.php?page=email_signup

          • Craig

            Thank you registered.

          • Jethro

            Glad to help. Most of the time it’s the same thing as what we are reading here, worded a little different at times. Every now and then, something will be totally different.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Thanks for posting this, Marko. I’ve heard Neale use this idea before. For example, one can experience what’s going on in the world as our coming to a physical end on Earth (if it even survives), or one can look at the chaos that almost always occurs prior to great change—much like birthing pains—and work to adapt to a new circumstance, or even help it along if we believe in what’s being birthed. If one looks to history, there is often chaos before revolutionary change.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

  • Jethro

    I see myself on one hand as a chemical creature, a combination of genes shared by my parents passed on from their parents and so on. I see it that way because that’s exactly what my physical make-up is. I have a brain that may be limited or gifted in an area or two because it is genetically made that way and everything about me that is physical is a result of humans breeding and producing more human beings.
    My thoughts on the other hand are all mine. My thoughts about anything have everything to do with every experience I have ever had, everything I’ve ever seen, heard, touched, smelled, and felt with in this chemical mass that makes me physically who I am. The results of everything in my past have made me mentally who I am at this moment.

    The Spirit, the part of me that I quietly have discussions with to determine what is the best choice, the part of me that tries to predict the outcome of my actions if taken, the part of me that cares so much for the people and things around me, That part that decides what is right and wrong, it’s all a product of… those same genes. Do I know that my thoughts create my attitude, my attitude in turn creates other thoughts, which results in either caring actions or uncaring actions, which when witnessed by another, creates caring or uncaring thoughts which may in fact conduct caring or uncaring actions depending on the spiritual beliefs of the witness? Yes, I know that. I also understand that I can control the emotions of another with just a facial expression while standing in line at a grocery store, which can in turn conduct the emotions of a person as they continue their day. Its why I usually smile, greet, or assist. I know all of this because I know how I am effected by others and how my day can change due to one person or any random action throughout my day if I choose to let it… IF, I choose to allow it!

    I must recognize that I am both, the outcome of a biological process engaged in by two older biological processes called my mother and my father, and a spiritual being inhabiting a biological cellular mass—what I call my body. I “must” recognize this because my physical being can and does greatly effect my spiritual being through chemical balance or imbalance in my brain where my spirit is recognized. I know that I have some control of that balance or imbalance through diet or those chemical make ups that I choose to be around which comes in the form of gases, liquids and/or solids. I realize I don’t have complete control as I am unaware or ignorant to the depth of the outcomes of all of my dietary intake or the dangers and/or benefits of certain gases, liquids and/or solids.

    My purpose in life and ultimate goal in life is to survive and be a part of the survival of all of nature. To serve the well being of other life forms, the most important to me being other humans. Though I’m very upset with other humans for creating a world which they call better for humans but is obviously destructive to most other lives on this planet. The lives of which, if destroyed, make my own survival impossible. We have slapped mother nature in the face and I accept she is slapping back… It has to happen.

    While I cannot be sure of a life after this one I can accept at the moment that the memories of my actions will be passed on for years to come, even if my name cannot be associated to those memories. Neale offered a prayer worth repeating this Saturday morning which share here.

    “Thank you, God, for all the circumstances of this present moment in my eternal life, and for the chance to experience within myself, and demonstrate to others, the True Nature of every human, which is Unity and Oneness with you as our creator, our comfort, and our companion on this Journey of the Soul. And help me to be a help to all others whose life I touch during every moment of turmoil, that they may find their way to inner peace, the end of struggle, and union with the Divine, through me.”

    • Patrick Gannon

      I mostly agree with that. Congrats on conceiving of yourself as a chemical being, and yet, like myself, still able to have a full and productive life. We have chosen not to lie to ourselves or play pretend superhero in our minds.

      I’ll pas on the prayer to the imaginary, invisible being that lives in the sky!

      • Jethro

        Thank you.
        As for the prayer, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Prayers are for the person praying anyway.

      • Craig

        I see prayer different, they are not words uttered into the universe, they are deeds and advise to overcome or approach events…

  • Spiritual_Annie

    Hey, all!

    Just checking in. Irma is now being predicted to come my way. I’m in an area that is supposed to have been evacuated, but the shelters are full and most neighbors are staying. I wish I hadn’t slept through the time when they were going through the streets making the announcements that we’re under mandatory evacuation, but the meds I take to get what sleep I can knock me out for a while. Then Biscuit and I could be in a stronger building. But, we’ll make do here. For now, it’s almost hard to believe as the skies are still blue and it’s pretty out.

    Floridians are funny. They’re either afraid way ahead of the game and running to the store a week in advance, or they’re not worried at all. Even being upgraded to a Hurricane Warning doesn’t ruffle the feathers of the die-hards. I’ve got the upper part of the trailer ready with everything in the fridge to keep it safe from damage. The bathroom’s got an old tub Biscuit and I can be in for the worst of it if we’re still here. There won’t be shattering of glass, and there’s no tree on that side to fall.

    We have until dusk to find shelter and they know we’re here, just don’t have a place to put us or a way to get there. If they find one, they’ll let me know. It seems that because the area is missed so often, they’ve become a bit lax.

    Whatever happens, whether here or in a shelter, I’ll try to stay in touch.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • Jethro

      They’ve become a bit lax there. Yes, in Texas too. I will be waiting to hear about your experience as soon as possible. Hopefully you will be telling us how it missed again!

  • Spiritual_Annie

    UPDATE: They changed our status, so now Biscuit and I are waiting for a ride to a shelter. Before, they wouldn’t let me take him. Now, they have to. I wasn’t leaving him here alone. He’ll be 11 in just two days, and I know some might not understand, but I couldn’t have abandoned him nor dealt with a shelter without him. I’ll try to keep in touch.

    Patrick, I hope your family’s well clear of it by now.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • Sending good thoughts & safety for you.

    • Kristen

      Hi Annie,
      Good to hear, I had a feeling from Thu that you were in the path, no matter what the forecasters said (hence being a bit stalky). I put up on an old thread yesterday that since your status changed 24 hours ago, shelters had to take household pets, sooooooo glad you’ve found a place in a shelter when most are full. Apparently theres another just set up for people like you from trailer parks in your area….beauty of a diff time zone where your night is our day, I can snoop when you sleep! Probably the one theyre taking you to.
      Love and thoughts are with you both as theyve been for a few days, hang in there and touch base when you can.
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    • Jethro

      GOOD!!!

      Love and Blessings Always

  • Kristen

    Neale….your site obviously, but already this one has changed, we’re all focussed on Annie in the path of Irma, and natural disasters.
    Sorry, but I can’t see this one even getting to topic, it just seems so unimportant right now, or far from whats on peoples minds.
    K

    • Jethro

      Our inner concern for others and with our outward expression towards others who may be facing dangerous moments, we are entirely on subject and inline with expressing our spiritual side, even for those who do not accept that they have one. When we realize the chemical make up of a human may be in danger of destruction, our spiritual beings expose themselves in the greatest fashion, an expression of love. The subject seems far from our minds, but in this case, it’s in action.

      • Kristen

        Damn….she didnt get to a shelter. Grrrrr. Fingers crossed.

  • Spiritual_Annie

    UPDATE: As these things go, it took hours for the bus to show up. As in early evening. And, as government SNAFU’s go, there was complete miscommunication all over the place. Push came to shove, they’d only take Biscuit in a carrier (normally against the law for service animals) and they couldn’t guarantee that we wouldn’t be taken to separate facilities or when or if I’d get him back.

    By the time I was turning around to get off the bus, with lots of arguing going on around me, I knew Biscuit was already in protective mode as soon as he’d seen an alpha male in a uniform. It’s a thing of his, with reason. My redneck neighbor called to Biscuit and got him off the bus, then told this guy who was continuing to argue that I had a safe place to go with them to a friend’s house (then called him a Nazi).

    We all do have a safer place to go, as in concrete block house not in a flood zone. We’re not there yet, though. The weather reports were saying the wind and rain wouldn’t hit us until about noon, so it was decided to stay til morning. Well, the squalls started hitting about two hours ago from the outer edges of the leading bands, in spurts. The forecast winds have been downgraded, but not enough to change much in the way of expected damage. Richard (my neighbor) yelled he’d be over soon when I knocked an hour ago. But that’s normal for Richard.

    We are in the direct path of Irma now. All of Pinellas County is. Christie used to tell me that happens a lot, then somehow the Bay or the Gulf waters always make them turn and miss. It is as if it’s been blessed. Now it’s meeting Irma, head-on it seems. The largest hurricane ever recorded. I guess we’ll see if the blessings hold.

    The only thing I fear is for Biscuit. He’s been through so much in his life that I want his old age to be easy. He’s earned it. This is his home now, and I’d hate for him to lose it after all the places he endured while we were homeless.

    Regardless of what happens, I am and will be where I’m supposed to be, because that’s where I always am. And I will not waste this opportunity to tell you all how much I appreciate and love you.

    Much Love and Many Blessings, Always,
    ~Annie

    • Thanks for the uPdate. Continued sending of light/love/safety vibes.

      • Craig

        Ditto for Annie,
        Any info on Patrick’s family and other members contributing on the forum…

        • Patrick Gannon

          I still have two sisters I haven’t heard from. The others are all fine. One of them was east of Cape Coral and the track appears to have gone right over her house. She won’t have electricity for a while, but hopefully she’ll send a text soon.

          • Craig

            Thank you, my thoughts with you on a positive outcome.

            Three sisters you must’ve had a hard time growing up.

            But then it made you more assertive than us relying on an older brother to defend…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Oldest of seven, five of them girls.

            I wasn’t assertive – I ran for the hills. I spent as little time at home as I possibly could. I lived in the woods when I was in New England, and in the waves and water in Hawaii. I did learn to put the toilet seat down…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Just heard from the other two sisters. Both OK. Minor damage, but nothing too serious. Apparently Cat 4 winds are “scary.” Who knew?

          • Kristen

            Thanks Patrick… phew!
            Yip, who knew that? Would never have crossed my mind!
            Wonder what will happen when the water comes back in, that was nuts to see, can imagine meterologists almost peeing their pants with excitement at that rare one.
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’d like to hear some discussion in the public about cloud seeding. The science indicates that seeding storms like these hurricanes can reduce their force significantly – up to 40% in some early experiments on storms before the government shut down the program.

            People freaked out at the idea of man controlling the weather – that’s their god’s domain. Now, however, I wonder what they would say if they knew the government had the ability to decrease the strength of the storm, but failed to do so. (Looking at the way the storm weakened, it’s possible they did seed it surreptitiously). I think if my property had been destroyed and I knew the government could have done something about it, but didn’t because they were afraid of lawsuits, I’d be pretty upset….

          • Craig

            This would not be the first cost and life saving experiment pushed under the rug…
            Well we have manipulate seeds, birth control, gender genetics, cloning etc. How could influencing weather trends be any different.
            My concern would be the restoration of the earths nutritional supplements for vegetations. Otherwise it sounds good…

          • Kristen

            Again, its all about $$$, so I think only insurance companies would have a vested interest, government logic is up there with the impossible to define. Youd think they would think of the $$$$ saved, but they seem to think more of debt and spending than saving. And the UN was open years ago about wanting our population down, perhaps theyre allowing nature to ‘cull’.
            Who knows!
            Did you read an article years ago after 9/11 when planes were grounded, that Israeli scientists noted the US temperature everywhere jumped up 2 or 3 degrees straight away, and their determination was that our pollution and planes are actually keeping the planet cooler than it naturally would be? Without our manmade barriers global warming would have happened years ago. Sorry no references, I read it years ago, Dr Google may find it. If correct, perhaps thats something to do with it.
            K

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes, I recall that study. The lack of contrails had both a cooling and warming effect, but I think the warming was greater. At night, the lack of contrails, allows the earth to cool more, as the contrails trap heat; but during the day, a lot more photons would hit the earth, raising temps.

            It stands to reason, since they are pumping out carbon, that jets are contributing to climate change, and it is possible that at the same time, the contrails (created when water vapour in hot air blasted out of jet engines freezes in the intense cold of high altitudes), shield some sunlight from reaching earth, thereby holding temps down. They also trap heat at night, leading to lower swings in temperatures between night and day.

            This illustrates that we can manipulate the climate – and I’m pretty sure we can manipulate these large storms as well. The question is whether a “Christian” nation is willing to let scientists and the government “play God” with the weather. How would the fundies blame the gays for God bringing hurricanes, if we could control those hurricanes ourselves!?

          • Craig

            Fantastic, thanks for up date. At 120 miles an hour, that is faster than we my legally travel, so it must’ve been scary…. I have never experienced anything stronger than 60 miles while walking on our cape coasts…

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Glad all are well.

          • Patrick Gannon

            All are safe. As for “well,” three of my sisters had to shack up with my very difficult mother. I’m not sure they are sane any longer!

          • Kristen

            Haha…I have one older sister and I still ran for cover!
            Im a girl and one was more than enough for anyone. I say Im on only child, with only child syndrome, but there was another kid in my house that I saw occasionally!

          • Craig

            Put seats down, I still cannot get that right…
            You had a tough job, half a dozen siblings… Hills and beach would be a excellent resort to recover…

    • Kristen

      Thanks for an update Annie, I see it was hours ago, hope you got to your safe house.
      People will band together and make plans for you if you lose your home, they always do after disasters. Perhaps you could end up with a live in position at an animal rescue place or something.
      Love and thoughts are with you both.
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

  • Jean_Sillard

    Even you are convinced that you are a spiritual being, it’s another thing to live every day consciously as a spiritual being. For me it’s very hard. As we still live in a material society, almost nothing is done to support this vision.
    I participated in several meditation groups. As meditation is fashionable, you can see a lot of people coming to test it. People are trying meditation as it is said it’s good for health and inner peace. Of course there is nothing bad in this, but very few people do this as spiritual path to open their heart..

    • Jethro

      Jean, its your spiritual being telling you it’s hard to be spiritual. You are the only one responsible for doing anything that supports your image of spirituality. Spirituality is not something outside of you, its completely internal. Spirituality is that part of you that is expressed, not something that you receive. The part of you that is spiritual conducts how you receive the information coming to you whether the information is good or bad. The Spiritual you does not automatically decide anything for you but plays a major roll in how you make decisions. It’s not your thoughts, but why you think the way you think. It’s deeper than knowledge, as it’s not knowledge, its what tells you how to use your knowledge.

  • Patrick Gannon

    We have to start by understanding that we are Option 1. There is simply no getting around that. We are chemical creatures, and to an as yet unknown degree, our paths are preordained. Is there a disadvantage in accepting this truth about who we really are? I don’t think so. Those of us who know this about ourselves, live very full and meaningful lives.

    If I take myself as an example, I can demonstrate that Neale’s assertion is wrong. I know that I am a chemical creature, I conceive of myself as a chemical creature – but one with a electro-chemical brain that provides me with a rich array of experiences. The story he paints of an individual like myself being little more than a blob, or thinking of myself as little more than a blob, slightly superior to other blobs, is nonsense. I don’t think of myself as a spiritual being, in fact, I’m coming to really dislike that word as it morphs and twists in the wind with each person defining it as they will. Yet my life is surely as full as anyone else here.

    I know that I have an impact on the lives of others. I am not run only by habits and instincts because I evolved a brain that grants me all sorts of opportunities to do all the things Neale says I can’t do by virtue of thinking about myself as a chemical being. He’s simply wrong. Where is the evidence that says scientific people who conceive of themselves as chemical beings are living zombie lives with no meaning or purpose?

    Without defining what he means by a “spiritual being,” he goes on to extol the virtues of conceiving of oneself as such, but starts by saying, “If you saw yourself as a spiritual being, you would see yourself as having powers and abilities far beyond those of a simple chemical creature; powers that transcend basic physicality and its laws.” and that is called lying to yourself. That is where the BS meter pegs to the right. There are no powers that transcend basic physicality and its laws, and if he says there are, then the burden is on him to demonstrate it. Since we know these powers don’t exist, he’s asking you to lie to yourself.

    The bit about there being no powers that transcend basic physicality is unfortunate, because an argument could be made that one might conceive of themselves as a “superhero” in order to motivate him/herself, or conceive of themselves as an “angel” so they are motivated to be kind. If people need to play these mental tricks on themselves, perhaps there is a benefit in doing so – but once you bring the woo into it – once you start talking about transcending physical laws, you’ve lost all credibility. You’ve sided with the Trumpers and fundies on science.

    He says, “as a spiritual being, you would know that you are here (on the earth, that is) for a spiritual reason.” Define spiritual reason. Since he mentions being here on earth, the assumption is that he’s pointing to a pre and/or post earth existence, and that can only be based on an existence as basic particles, from whence we came and to which we shall return. That’s your ONEness, but I don’t think that’s what he means by “spiritual reason.” Neale clearly believes that the laws of physics are wrong, but he’s offered nothing to support his belief. Why should he be taken seriously?

    Is there an advantage in lying to ourselves? Perhaps. It may bring comfort to those unwilling to face reality, but that’s not truth; and if he’s going to advocate lying to ourselves, he should be honest about what he’s asking us to do.

    There are no powers that transcend basic physicality and it’s laws. As of July 4, 2012, with the discovery of the Higgs boson, this was determined once and for all – the news just hasn’t made it out to the scientifically illiterate.

    • Craig

      Other people can only make us feel inferior if we give them permission to do so. Well stated no permission coming from Patrick…

      The laws of nature will always supersede any thoughts and convictions we may have and they are superior to our cognitive abilities… With this I cannot debate. If I trip I fly what a joy, when I land and suddenly stop well the picture changes in a instant. Exactly the same effect we have on the response of the globe we stand on.

    • Kristen

      I detest the word spiritual, words are literal wiith a meaning in the dictionary. As its still an undefined word other than ‘of the spirit’ its one thrown about with no ‘legal’ dictionary meaning. Even tracking the word back, from spirit, to holy spirit, to of the soul…the word soule means the sun, which in most teachings symbolises beauty and perfection! Yet ‘spiritual’ people would object to that.
      On that one word I’m rather like you….not interested in peoples interpretations of it, only a proper dictionary definition that is 100% correct.
      K

      • Patrick Gannon

        I thought the origin of “soul” was “breath of life.” I have not heard the word associated with “sun” but I suppose that’s also possible. I’m pretty sure that “soule” is simply an obsolete spelling of “soul.”

        Most people today probably go with the original dictionary meaning – an entity without material reality, regarded as the spiritual part of a person.

        As of July 4, 2012, we confirmed that there are no such entities.

    • Jethro

      I’ve tried to understand the Higgs boson and just don’t, what does it have to do with God?

      • Patrick Gannon

        Nothing. Some numbnut labeled it “the god particle” years ago, and it stuck; just like the “Big Bang” was originally a term designed to ridicule that idea, but it stuck too.

        The reason it is important is that it was the final piece of the standard model – sometimes called the core theory, which explains all the actions of the particles in our natural world. Prior to Higgs, we understood everything about particles, except one thing – how they get their mass. We knew from mathematical proofs and theories of physics that the Higgs field had to exist, but it took a lot of money to build the very powerful LHC accelerator, in order to clearly identify and confirm its existence. It’s important because it’s the last piece in the puzzle.

        You might ask, why isn’t the Higgs boson a candidate for woo forces… Many hoped it would be – hence the “god particle” name that was tied to it. The answer is that the Higgs particle decays in an instant. It requires tremendous energy in a particle accelerator to produce a Higgs particle out of the Higgs field (which is all around us), and this particle decays almost instantly (zeptosecond). It would never stick around long enough to affect the firing of a synapse. Any particle we haven’t yet detected must have one of the following features:

        1. It could be so very weakly interacting with ordinary matter that it is almost never produced, or
        2. It could be extremely massive, so that it takes collisions at energies even higher than what our best accelerators can achieve in order to make it; or
        3. It could be extremely short-lived so that it gets made but then almost immediately decays away into other particles.

        Quoting Sean Carroll: “If any particle we haven’t yet found lasted long enough and interacted with ordinary matter with sufficient strength that it could possibly affect the physics of every day goings-on, we would have produced it in experiments by now.” (The Big Picture)

        Yes, there is a tremendous amount of new information that we can learn about physics, but with the identification of the Higgs, we have resolved all the open questions about the particles that we, and our natural world are comprised of. There are no holes left that we can point to, and say the soul or consciousness or some other woo force, comes from there, or works in this or that way. Now that we know how particles get their mass, we’ve completed the standard model, and are prepared to move on, diving even deeper, learning even more; but nothing we learn is going to change the core theory. Einstein did not invalidate Newton – he added to it. Schrodinger and others who discovered quantum mechanics did not invalidate Einstein, they added to his work. If you come back in 10,000 years, with all that we will learn in the meantime, Newtonian physics will still work to send rockets to the moon. Einstein’s relativity will still work to bend light, quantum mechanics will still work to provide exquisitely exact, probable outcomes. We may and surely will discover more new things, but just as each of the above discoveries expanded on what came before it, the original discoveries remain valid.

        What this has to do with God or any other soul, consciousness, or other woo forces, is to invalidate them. We understand now, all the things particles can do, and there are no actions of particles that require woo forces for explanation, and there are no actions of particles that cannot be explained by the standard model. The gods died on July 4, 2012. All that remains is to put up the headstone – which, of course, is what I’m trying to do!!!

        • Craig

          Another school day, thanks

    • Jethro

      I started a conversation with my wife yesterday about the transfer of energy. I looked at a tree and said that there was no way that my “energy” could transfer from me to that tree and make it greener than it was. Her response confirmed what I have been saying for some time. She said, Your energy is what you use to work the dirt around it, water it, prune it, your energy causes you to breathe and your breath is food for that tree, so yes your energy can transfer to that tree. I said, I can’t stand here and transfer my energy to make it greener by willing it to be greener. She said no, your not putting your energy towards that tree. Your energy is focused on you wanting the tree to be greener. How can I not smile and agree with that?
      Pat, all of these magical powers people are talking about including myself are not magical at all. It’s Magical to someone who’s just realizing they effect the things around them by just existing. It’s spiritual. The dust in my house lands in places it never would have without me moving around in the house. Bugs that would be creating an effect somewhere outside are banging there heads on the wall outside on the porch because I chose to leave the porch light on. It’s all cause and effect.
      I understand that you have a hard time arguing about spirituality when people keep changing what spirituality means. Even when we take the woo out of spirituality, it’s still spirituality. Arguing spirituality in this place is like arguing colors in a room full of people with varying color blindness without realizing you may be a little color blind yourself. Spirituality is the unphysical results of the physical actions of our brains. How it’s defined is based on the understanding of the experiences of the person having the experience. Even if it goes against the common sense of the person having the experience.
      Most of us are entertained by magicians due to the fact that we just don’t know how they do it (some actually believe it’s magic). We can be really confused when something occurs like that of the magicians trick without the magician or the knowledge that it’s just an illusion. Our brains must do “Something… anything” with the information. Some of what we call beliefs are to others a knowing, you yourself have said that to me. You do not believe it, you know it.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Your wife sounds very wise, Jethro.

        If we could take the woo out of spirituality, we’d be making great progress! I would be an ardent supporter of Neale’s if he would drop the woo nonsense.

        You said, “Spirituality is the unphysical results of the physical actions of our brains.”

        Why is it that you understand that, but almost nobody else here does? Most here think our brains are “pushed” by some magical force despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

        On the other hand, the results are not entirely “unphysical” since the brain is releasing chemicals that contribute to the “feeling” or “perception” of “spirituality.” My brain has produced those chemicals in events that most would describe as “spiritual” and it’s pretty amazing – but it’s all a product of the brain.

        I have used the word, “know” but I don’t like that word a whole lot more than “believe.” When I say I “know” something, that means I think it is true with a very high degree of probability. I “know” the sun is going to come up in the east tomorrow, but I also “know” that it’s possible that something could come careening out of the solar system and knock the sun like a billiard ball, right out of position, so “knowing” is a matter of degree. However there is a huge difference with belief. My “knowing” that the sun is going to come up in the east is based on decades of experiencing that very thing, as well as a basic understanding of our solar system and our position within it. My “knowing” that the sun will come up in the east tomorrow is the result of compelling, objective evidence. A person who says they “know” their god or their woo exists, does not have ANY of that evidence, so we have another word whose definition we must debate. Can we really “know” something without any real evidence? I would say “no.”

        • Craig

          I think John Kehoe gave rebirth to the woo with his book Brain Power while Brian Tacy had the same view as Jim Rohn thoughts determine what we want action determines what we get…
          Spirituality what we desire… Seems correct if this universe existed to solely serve its creators purpose, then spirituality would rather be referring to understanding the creator… Making Neale’s claim more possibly likely…

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Seems correct if this universe existed to solely serve its creators purpose, then spirituality would rather be referring to understanding the creator… Making Neale’s claim more possibly likely…”

            There is no need to postulate a creator. It just complicates things, because then you have to explain the creator. The universe can be explained just fine without any gods. Neale’s woo claims are without merit – unless you are prepared to overturn the laws of physics!

          • Craig

            Not really the universe can only explain natural laws not why they exist or rather being introduced as an essential part of a nothingness to be a something and that is and remains the only reason why many still believe…
            No need to discuss further as this blog is outdated… Till next blog. Keep well and enjoy asking questions just remember the day everything will be answered is the day Eve shares the fruit of knowledge… I am talking about us humans not a biblical figure but a very ancient discussion similar to the one we are having as Job did…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Google, “YouTube God is not a Good Theory (Sean Carroll)” Grab a beer and enjoy the show.

            Just because we can’t explain why we have the set of natural laws that we have YET, does not mean we won’t one day be able to do so. We’ve only been at this for a very short time.

        • Jethro

          Well I’m a little partial, I think she’s pretty great. As for wise.. she’s with me, that makes ME the wise one! She doesn’t talk about “spiritual things” at all, I present an idea or thought now and then and get an answer I really didn’t expect. Like that one.

          I do support Neale for reasons you already know. Neale has shared his experiences in depth, He believes what he’s saying and there is a reason for that.

          “Why is it that you understand that, but almost nobody else here does?” ….Experiences and how we define them. I thought professional wrestling was a real competition as a child. It’s designed that way. Spirituality has some professional wrestlers and I know that. Spirituality has a real place but due to the language used by gurus to attract customers… uuhhh, followers… uuhhh students, the language has confused many people and the conversations being had between people who believe differently. There have been many “spiritual gurus” since the movement in the 60’s. All you have to do is know the lingo and BAMB!! Your a spiritual guru. You don’t really have to understand, just be believable. That’s easy if the guru believes what he/she is saying. When people believe in a persons wacked out ideas of spirituality and follow the persons every word even beyond their own understanding, you get a group of spirits riding a comet for eternity, or a group of ghosts hosting an extreme BBQ in Waco Texas. One of the best things I was ever taught in the Christian church was to beware of false prophets. SO, If it doesn’t make sense to me, I’ll entertain an idea long enough to try and understand it, if I don’t, it’s not worth my time. I can’t move things with my mind, I can’t predict lottery numbers, I can’t levitate or be somewhere that my body is not, though my brain may say I can. First thing I have to do, and this is most important, is be honest with myself. Once I have done that, be honest with others.

          Why do you seem to be more interested in science than anyone I have ever met? You have told me that answer in your post to Raphael:
          “I was the New Age guy, pushing CwG woo on the one hand, and debating with Christians and Muslims on the other. The atheists drove me crazy with their constant calls for evidence. They loved me when my knowledge about the bible and religious history worked against the Abrahamists, but they ridiculed and derided me for believing in the woo espoused here. I got just as furious and frustrated as some here do….. thanks to their constant repetition, I finally started looking for that evidence, planning to “show them,” but to no avail. I read through a lot of Noetic Institute studies, and went through material about past lives – even had myself regressed. It became evident that any “evidence” was in the “noise” of statistical error. If there is evidence for psi, it is as an anthill as compared to a Mt. Everest worth of evidence for the laws of physics.”

          Pat, I don’t believe we pass particles from one person to another because I have not experienced it, You don’t believe it because science has said it’s just not happening. My cat’s cannot read my thoughts lol, but I can go in the kitchen and fix coffee without one of them showing up, the second I pick up a can of cat food they appear. I’ve turned on the water and tried, I’ve tried to include picking up the can while fixing coffee, it doesn’t matter. as soon as I pick up the can, there they are. I was perplexed for some time and it sounds suspiciously weird until I mention I have a wooden raised foundation house and I keep the can in the very same spot day after day. Need I say more? There is usually an explanation if we search long enough. Sometimes it’s easier and more fantastic to leave it a mystery and blame the powers that be, whatever that means.

          It’s not always what a person believes that’s insulting to some, it’s what they do with that information. for example, I’ve met many people who are Christians and don’t talk about it, they let people be who they are, foul language, bad attitude and all the other negatives you can think of in a personality. Then I have known some who pretend to accept people and talk harshly about them in their absence, then there are those who will take the opportunity to let people know just how bad they are on the spot without considering why a person is the way they are. I tend to let people be who they are because it’s who they are. None of my business why unless they make it my business…… I seem to be extra chatty this morning but work is calling… New blog is up. Have a good one

      • Spiritual_Annie

        I wish you had met Christie. She was so in tune with nature’s energy that she could transfer energy with anything natural. Her favorites, though, were to give her energy to Cypress trees (they need much more water than they get here, so often suffer), and receiving energy from mangrove trees. She could also revive nearly any smaller plant within days. It was incredible to see the rapid changes—some literally overnight. She did it consciously through touch, although she could also intuit their state. She could read the energy of a plant and know whether or not it was poisonous.

        I believe our energies and the energies in nature are always interacting. We’re just not always aware of it.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

        • Jethro

          “I believe our energies and the energies in nature are always interacting. We’re just not always aware of it.” It’s defining that energy without it sounding so magical that all can understand it that would make it possible. For the record, I do agree. The problem we face with putting the magic stuff in there is it turns away those who believe as Pat does. The magic is always in the person but loses its effect in the explanation of it.

          I do many things these days in my job that I have never done before and I do it right. It’s not as magical as people claim, I just have the concept down and have seen the work repetitively. When a person has a green thumb, it usually comes from caring enough about plants to seem to have a mystical intuition towards them.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Pat does NOT “believe.” Pat thinks with a high degree of confidence, based on overwhelming, compelling and objective evidence, that there are no woo forces. Please try not to associate the word “belief” with me. I hate that word and try to avoid it.

          • Jethro

            Sorry, It’s wasn’t meant as an insult. One of my greatest faults is improper use of words. Nobody would ever guess I was an A student in math or English. I personally would like to witness all proofs of woo, aliens, big foot, Giants, knomes. I think I will always be interested, always have been. I actually want to see it as being true which makes me a very very tough critic. I won’t be tricked again. But I’m not against the possibilities which means I won’t shut it down blindly either.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            What’s wrong with feeling life has properties that seem “magical” because we don’t yet understand them, or which we have experienced repeatedly but for which we can’t provide an example of for others? (I can’t bring Christie back from the dead to perform for y’all—now that would be magical!)

            If we are to have a meaningful global conversation, shouldn’t I be as honest I and real about my feelings and experiences as I can, to add to the conversation? If what I have to offer were to “turn away those who believe as Pat[rick] does,” isn’t that their issue, not mine?

          • Patrick Gannon

            It’s really convenient that you can’t bring her back to prove it, isn’t it? My father told me that on alternate Fridays he could do a standing broad jump over our house? Oh, you want proof? I’m sorry. He died. You’ll have to take my word for it.

            As mentioned below in my response to Jethro – I don’t “believe” science, I trust it, because unlike your subjective experiences which have no empirical evidence to confirm that they are valid, science offers that. You are trying to push a very large boulder up a hill if you have no useful evidence.

            To be clear, I don’t deny your right to share your experiences, but once you do, they are open to criticism, and requests for evidence, such as insisting that some people can cure plants with their minds. As I’ve said elsewhere -some ideas are worthy of contempt and ridicule.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I lost my very best friend a year ago on the 25th of last month, and you think that’s “convenient”? Right. She died just so I couldn’t provide video evidence under scientific methodology of the way plants responded to her.

            Christie’s passing over was many things, none of which were “convenient.”

            As I said, you wouldn’t have accepted the video proof even if I had it because you would question it’s authenticity and the circumstances under which it made. You might even claim tampering. Who knows how far a science zealot would go so as to not shatter his paradigm? Some people…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Nice spin. No I certainly would not trust you. I would require an elaborate scientific experiment with numerous controls and documentation because the idea is so outrageous and requires that the laws of physics are wrong.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I don’t have to try to “paint” you as anything. People here can read for themselves and make up their own minds about any post or person here. I don’t have a personal investment in what other people think about you.

            And there goes your predictable dinging me about what you believe my Spirituality should look like. (And you’re always claiming others don’t get your sarcasm!)

            I think that there are laws of nature that override the laws of physics, especially when people are involved. I’m not tied to your scientific viewpoint of the world. I believe that there is much, much more going on here in our world than that which has yet been, and maybe ever will be, discovered through the physical sciences.

            I’m not saying that the laws of physics are wrong. I’m saying there’s more going on here that’s not yet understood. If that blows away your scientific, physics-based paradigm, so be it, but it may simply be one of those things that isn’t either/or, but rather both.

            You know with a high degree of certainty that there are multiple dimensions in this physical reality, right? Why can’t it also be that there are multiple dimensions to being human? Abilities that some are developing as another dimension of being human, as humanity continues to evolve? Experiences that have yet to be understood because there’s much yet to be discovered about what it can mean to be fully human (much less also fully Divine)?

            You’re the one that’s always saying life is a process, and evolution is a process. Well, if they’re processes, how can they be fully understood with static ideas?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Ah, back to an interesting topic… I’ll pass on the personal crap.

            “I think that there are laws of nature that override the laws of physics,”

            Sorry but the “laws of nature” are the “laws of physics.” You are welcome to propose otherwise, and I look forward to reading your peer-reviewed submission to Nature journal. Let me know when they print it. If you want to take on the physics establishment – some of the smartest people in the world, I’m going to buy a ticket to watch the show.

            It sounds like you are proposing that the laws of physics stop working when they encounter people. Interesting proposal – one that I’ve sarcastically put forward before, never expecting anyone to take it seriously…. but when one is drowning, grasping at straws…. Again you are welcome to submit peer-reviewed papers with which to support the hypothesis. Can you give me some idea about how you would go about proving this hypothesis?

            Humans are made of the same material, the same fields and particles as everything else in our natural world. How could humans have multiple dimensions different from the dimensions that are part of our natural world? Can you put forth something, anything, to support this claim, and how it would provide support to prove woo?

            “You’re the one that’s always saying life is a process, and evolution is a process. Well, if they’re processes, how can they be fully understood with static ideas?”

            I’ll need you to expand on that. I have no idea where you are going with that statement. Who says the ideas about evolution and life are static? The ideas about evolution went through a lot of change, and there are various pieces of the theory that are still debated vigorously (detail stuff – not the main concept of evolution). The research on the beginning of life is still very young, though we are making great progress. Those ideas are certainly not static – we will change them continuously as we learn more.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Pardonez moi. I should have specified human nature that override the laws of physics. Y’know—all that squishy stuff physical scientists don’t like, such as psychology and sociology. The social sciences.

            I have no intention, as I’m sure you’re aware, of presenting any peer-reviewed papers to the journals you consider your sacred scriptures.

            What I meant, to clarify, is that if life and evolution are processes, how can human beings, their abilities and their potential capacity to be more be understood with static ideas?

          • Patrick Gannon

            How does “human nature” override the laws of physics? How do “the general psychological characteristics, feelings, and behavioral traits of humankind, regarded as shared by all humans,” something that overrides the laws of physics?

            Physics is about understanding nature. Humans are part of nature. We are made of the exact same components as everything else in our natural world. How do the laws of physics stop working when they encounter a human? Yes, our brains are squishy – made of the same particles as everything else – protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, gluons, fermions…. Physics is all about that stuff, and that stuff gives rise to thoughts, memories, consciousness.

            Social sciences have nothing to do with woo. If you proclaim that you can visit the dead, have OBEs, NDEs and predict the future, then you are making scientific claims. Social science is about studying “human society and social relationships.” What does that have to do with debunking the laws of physics?

            You need not present any peer-reviewed papers, but perhaps you could point me to some that others have presented? I suspect that if there were such papers, I’d have heard about them. Scientists would have had to respond to them in order to come to the conclusion that the core theory as it applies to our natural world, is complete, and it leaves no room for your woo.

            Peer reviewed papers certainly aren’t sacred scriptures, because the whole purpose of them is to try and disprove them – something we are not permitted to do with religious texts! Right?

            I still don’t get your final point. Humans are part of life and evolution, and both of those are processes, as you point out, and those ideas and theories are definitely not static. We are not using static ideas to understand human abilities and potential. In fact, we’re making tremendous strides in that area, by looking at all sorts of new ideas – like using MDMA to help patients with PTSD, for example. Where we aren’t making any progress at all, is in associating your woo forces with humans, although we tried very hard to do exactly that – and failed.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            “Where we aren’t making any progress at all, is in associating your woo forces with humans, although we tried very hard to do exactly that – and failed.”

            Really? You say “we tried very hard to do exactly that.” You did? Personally? Or was it physical material scientists who don’t believe in the concepts to begin with, who may have confirmation bias, looking to disprove that humans are more than material particles?

            I didn’t say that peer-reviewed papers are your sacred scriptures. I said that the journals in which they are published are your sacred scriptures, and referred to you as a science zealot.

            As I’ve stated before, which I’m certain you remember, I don’t know how it is that the metaphysical works, only that it does. I don’t know the specifics about how a hummingbird stays in one spot while flying, nor how migrating birds understand precisely when to fly south, nor how a jet engine works, but I know that they do. How do I know? By my experiences of seeing them in action.

            You act as if I’m a scientist, which you know perfectly well I’m not.

            You still haven’t explained why it’s just fine with you that scientists postulates and theorize about the physical, such as additional dimensions beyond those that are obvious, but it’s not OK for anyone to do so with regards to human abilities.

            If there can be a difference in how our physical world acts in the cosmos (particle physics) and how it acts subatomically (quantum physics), why can’t there also be a difference not yet discovered in what happens at the level of human beings?

          • Patrick Gannon

            You’re more of a smart a$$ than I am. “Really? You say “we tried very hard to do exactly that.” You did? ” Of course not, and you know I didn’t mean that, but you’ll take any little opportunity you can to ding me, since you can’t do it on the things that matter. That’s a really pathetic attempt to denigrate me, Annie… but it sure is “Spiritual!”

            Physicists, many of whom were religious, many of whom hoped to discover some explanation that might provide evidence for gods or souls or consciousness, worked very hard to understand the things that make up our natural world. The first chapter of that book is now complete. You’d know that if you kept up with the science. A lot of scientists are just like you. When they leave the office, they drop the science and put on the beliefs, like putting on a backpack that they drag around everywhere they go. When they come into the lab, they drop the backpack and get on with the business of learning how things work in our natural world. You also don’t seem to understand that nothing, absolutely nothing, is greater and more magnificent for a scientist, than to disprove the common wisdom and debunk other scientists. It’s what they live for. It’s how you get a Nobel Prize.

            Scientists did not set out to prove that humans are more than material particles – that’s patently ridiculous, and again, you’d know that, if you kept up with the science. You don’t want to know the science, because you know it debunks your beliefs. You are the one with the cognitive bias – and a very strong cognitive bias it is indeed! Is there any evidence that would ever make you give up your woo? Anything at all? Like Ken Hamm, I’m going to guess the answer is “no.” It would mean accepting that you were wrong, and what could possibly be more difficult than that? I had to give it up and admit I was wrong about the CwG woo. Facebook likes to pull up “memories” and ask if you want to post them again. Some of those memories are very embarrassing in light of my new knowledge. I was wrong. I can say that.

            Papers, journals, what’s the difference? As with your opening statement – any little insignificant thing you can find to try and ding me with, no matter how pathetic or trivial – if it makes you feel better, keep it up, but it makes you look foolish to me, and probably some others here. Papers go into the journal. That makes them sacred texts (your description, not mine), but you won’t buy it if I say the sky is blue, so keep on trucking with those convoluted explanations. I still remember when you told me they said you were a genius…. Were the “gospels” sacred texts before they were assembled and inserted into a bible?

            Yes, I’m a science zealot!!! You expect me to be offended by that? You said it like it’s something to be ashamed of. Science is amazing! I parade it proudly and boldly, because science works, and your woo does not, otherwise we wouldn’t be discussing it.

            “As I’ve stated before, which I’m certain you remember, I don’t know how it is that the metaphysical works, only that it does.”

            No you don’t know that it does. You only believe that the woo is real. One cannot definitively “know” something in the absence of compelling, empirical, objective evidence, and particularly when the subjective experiences that you use to claim this “knowing” are explained by neuroscience; and illustrated to have nothing to do with woo. Again, you’d have to be up on the science to know this.

            You described a number of natural phenomena – hummingbirds flying in place, for example. We “know” how that works because we’ve investigated it, filmed it in slow motion, dissected the birds and examined their bone and muscle structure. That means we can indeed “know” how the hummingbird stays in place (and yes, I include myself in “we” before you start idiotic nitpicking again). Neither you, nor “we” (the scientific community) has any of this evidence or understanding of your woo – so the two cases are not at all similar. Evidence for how hummingbirds fly in place is very detailed and complete, while objective evidence for Annie’s woo is non-existent – right? Surely you can see the difference? If we didn’t have the objective evidence, we could say the hummingbird uses “magic” to stay in one place and believe that.

            “You act as if I’m a scientist, which you know perfectly well I’m not.”

            Oh, I definitely understand that, but you might recall that you have on several occasions passed yourself off as being up to date on scientific issues. That was not at all true. At least not in any of the fields that challenge your beliefs. However, I’m not talking in deep scientific terms, but in layman’s terms – and I guess I’m still over your head. You don’t seem to understand that humans are made of the same “stuff” as everything else in this world and that “stuff” obeys the same laws of physics – no exceptions, or we’d have stumbled across them by now.

            I didn’t say it’s wrong to postulate about anything – but where’s the beef? I can postulate unicorns and fairies, but what good does it do? I mentioned a couple days ago, an absolutely ridiculous idea, that the laws of physics might break down when it comes to humans. It was intended to be a joke. I never figured anyone would seriously contemplate it; but when one is grasping for straws to support their beliefs, I guess anything goes. Find an article YouTube video, or anything at all that provides some support for this ridiculous assertion and I will certainly review it. I don’t think even Deepak Chopra would subject himself to that ridicule.

            Your last paragraph is not worded properly. Cosmology is the study of the origins and development of the universe, and that encompasses standard model Newtonian physics, particle physics and quantum mechanics. Cosmology is a superset of the other disciplines, not something separate.

            Human beings are emergent. We arise from quantum fields and particle physics (a particle is a vibration in a quantum field), and we are made of those and only those things. There are no special particles in humans, or we’d have found them. I’ve said this repeatedly, but as Neale points out, repetition is important. If there were forces acting on our physical components – synapses, neurons, tissue, and psi effects, we’d have found them by now. Any forces that we might not have found will be too weak to do anything to our particles, (like the billions of neutrinos flowing through you right now), or too heavy (which means they decay in billionths of a billionth of a second).

            You are free to propose that humans are somehow different, and the laws of physics cease to operate normally when they encounter a human. If this was a valid argument, I would expect someone to have made it, but I never heard of the idea, other than as a joke. I put it forth as such, and you grasped it like a drowning man snatches at straws. Send me something and I’ll read or watch it. You won’t listen to what I offer up, but I will read/listen to whatever you send me. Message me on Facebook – look for a Patrick Gannon with the same avatar as the one on this blog, and give me your address. I’ll mail you a book or two.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I give back what I get. It’s not like you’re above dinging me, so don’t even go there. Unless, of course, your dinging me because you don’t have all the answers on “things that matter” (which is entirely subjective). And, for the umpteenth time, I don’t care if you see me as Spiritual or not.

            My point, which I believe would be obvious to most, is that you base your scientific opinions on what you’ve read about what others have done, accepting it as truth even though they might have confirmation bias because their worldview is particle-based. In my instance, I base my opinions on things I’ve actually experienced for myself. I don’t look to others for answers about those things that matter most to me, although I might inquire about their own experiences. I go within. Apparently, you go without—and if that’s OK with you, so be it.

            “Scientists did not set out to prove that humans are more than material particles…” Misquote. I said “disprove.”

            You’ve not a clue what motivates any scientist, unless they’ve shared that with you. You know what they postulate and theorize, but not why they are doing so. You assume that it’s to understand the natural world. You remind me of the English prof I had who said, “Salinger meant [some Freudian based stuff about why Holden Caulfield wore his hat backwards] when he wrote it.” I asked him if Salinger had personally shared that thought with him while he was composing “Catcher in the Rye.” If not, then it’s open to interpretation. My Philosophy prof made the same mistake about assuming what Plato meant by something he wrote. You make the same mistake when you state that scientists are motivated to understand the natural world.

            And there goes your mind reading again. How in the world would you know what I want or don’t want? Guess all you want, but that doesn’t mean that you’re correct. It just means you’re guessing. I know I’ve been wrong about many things. I’ve admitted I’ve been wrong about many things. I also know I’ve been right about many things. I am, after all, almost 58 years old. That’s part of what’s called growing and maturing. And I can think of many, many things more difficult than changing one’s mind. In fact, I’ve experienced many things more difficult than changing my mind.

            Zealot: (I’ll leave out the religious definition)
            noun
            2. a fervent and even militant proponent of something (emphasis added)

            Moving on… Wrong again, and about the same thing, over and over, from column to column. I don’t rely on merely objective evidence, but also my own personal experiences and that of others that have been related to me. I don’t deny scientific evidence, I just don’t think science has answered all the questions, especially when it comes to metaphysics, which scientists choose not to study (maybe because there’s no money to be made from the results?). I think it’s flat out hubris to believe that science understands everything. And I “get” your “layman’s terms.” It’s been my experience that humans are made of more than just physical “stuff.”

            I don’t “pass myself off” as anything. I simply am who I am. You’re the one making judgments about who and what I am. If anything, you’re passing yourself off as the expert on everything scientific, just from listening to books while you run.

            Why should I hunt down anything for you to review? You’re disrespectful, dismissive, arrogant and insulting. Go find it yourself.

            With the way you treat me and others here, you think I’m going to send you my address?? Now who’s delusional? I’m certainly not in the habit of giving out my home address to people who consistently attack me. Now that I would consider an unhealthy and unwise “issue”.

          • Patrick Gannon

            As repeated before, your subjective experiences are of absolutely no value in determining the truth. They just aren’t.

            I read science books, written by scientists, who do indeed share their thoughts and information that I have discussed here. You’d know that, if you read some of these books yourself.

            The difference in philosophic and scientific interpretation is a matter of evidence. I’ve provided sources – the scientists who wrote in detail about the science I have discussed here, but of course people who believe in woo aren’t interested in challenging their beliefs.

            Yeah, so I’m a zealot when it comes to science. Hard to call me militant, when the only weapon I have is my keyboard and my brain, but if you want to make an argument for that, I won’t deny it. In the 60s if I had been older, I would have been a zealot for civil rights, and proud to be so.

            You are wrong about scientists not studying metaphysics. They have studied the properties of all the things that make up our natural world. If there were metaphysics involved they would have found it. What is it that you want them to study? They are peering into brains, measuring energies and forces, explaining all the actions that can possibly take place in our world – what else would you have them do?

            ” I think it’s flat out hubris to believe that science understands everything.”

            That’s great. I think the same thing, and so do scientists. They do know “some things” and they know them very well; but no scientist alive would claim science understands everything – so why repeat a truism? What scientist can you point to who says we understand everything? As for myself, I’ve noted this repeatedly.

            I would love it if I was not the “expert” on science in this forum. I would have the opportunity to learn more – but alas, as of now, I am the most educated, based on the discussions that take place here. I did not set out to become the expert – it just happened.

            Once again – you made a claim (based on a joke I made) that the laws of physics stop working when they encounter a human being (which would mean all other things are not ONE, just humans, since all other things do obey the laws of physics!). YOU made the claim. Not me. It is not my job to prove or disprove your claims. Clearly you know that this claim is bogus, so you’re trying to get out from under it.

            You think you’re in personal danger from me? Geez. You are paranoid – or more likely not interested in actually reading anything I send you!

          • Jethro

            Annie there is nothing wrong with you feeling it, I have lost faith in “magic” over the past few years, I have investigated my own experiences and debunked my own thoughts. I wish I had it back actually. Maybe I’ll find something someday or it will find me.

            You speak your truth as often as you wish. I don’t mind. I don’t mind the majority of Pat[rick]’s comments either. A mix provokes thoughts and I’m always looking for new perspectives. Everyone should, I personally was too rigid for too long. To answer your question, Yes and that’s not your problem.

        • Patrick Gannon

          “She could also revive nearly any smaller plant within days.”

          I do that by watering my garden when it gets dry.

          This is pseudoscientific nonsense. There is no evidence I am aware of for people being able to use magical forces to grow plants.

          It could be that when people are tending plants, they are in close proximity, and expelling CO2 which plants use for food; but the idea that people can heal plants with a touch is ludicrous.

          Those who make outrageous claims bear the burden of proof…. You can believe in these energies all you want – but that won’t make them real. As of July 4, 2012, those ideas all died.

          Just did a little searching – see “Proflowers” “Can Talking to Your Potted Plants Really Help Them Grow?” Turns out it’s not the CO2, that would require hours to make a difference. It seems that it is the vibrations in our voices, that are probably making a difference.

          That makes perfect sense, because wind also creates vibrations. I start some plants inside, and I blow a fan on them, which makes their stalks stronger and thicker, so they aren’t all spindly when I replant them. There’s always a rational explanation if we look for it.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            First, my reply wasn’t to you.

            Second, I have seen changes happen overnight after Christie simply spent time doing what she called “being in tune with their energies.” No watering required, no talking required, sometimes she didn’t even touch them. (She did with the trees, but not smaller plants.) She simply sat with them, sending out thoughts and energies around their health and growth.

            There can also be Spiritual experiences which lie underneath any rationale.

          • Patrick Gannon

            First, I can respond to any post I want. When are you going to get that through your head?

            Second, watering a plant will produce changes overnight.

            Third, do you have video documenting this? If not, then you have nothing but woo, which need not be taken seriously.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Just because you reply to nearly every post as if it’s a compulsion (hmmm… makes me wonder about your mental wellness, if it is a compulsion), that doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to point it out.

            And I didn’t say you can’t do so—who’s the Straw Man now?

            Again, no watering required, as previously stated.

            You wouldn’t accept a video as proof even if I had one because you’d question the circumstances under which it was recorded and whether it could be repeated.

            I don’t need proof. I personally observed it on more than one occasion. I don’t care if you take it seriously or not.

          • Patrick Gannon

            You said that your reply wasn’t to me. That’s clearly implies that I should not have responded to it – otherwise, why would you say that? Pretty weak attempt to ding me. Try again.

            Not compulsion – entertainment, and the opportunity to keep my mind sharp. I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t enjoy it. It beats the heck out of processing work leads, so I reward myself in between work tasks.

            You are correct, that a video coming from you, would be highly suspect, but if there are videos of people healing plants with their minds that have been observed by science using established scientific processes, then I would most certainly have to take them seriously – but nothing like that exists does it? If it did, you would have already referenced it.

            I know you don’t need proof. Neither does the terrorist who flies into a building.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            You can assume what you think I “implied” all you want. I merely pointed out that my reply wasn’t to you. Maybe I was implying that, had my reply been to you, I would have phrased it differently, or not replied to you at all. Making assumptions is very unscientific, though.

            Not a compulsion? You insert yourself (or try to) in every conversation here. I’ve seen a new column come up with several people posting their thoughts, and then there’s a reply from you to every single one of them. I’d call that a compulsion. Many people enjoy their compulsions. What do you think an addict does but enjoy their compulsions? Or maybe you just have an issue with not replying. Whichever.

            From your sharing over the years, I seriously doubt you’d believe a video from anyone disputing your scientific mindset. I haven’t searched for such a video as I need no proof. I’ve observed it myself on more than one occasion.

            Werner von Braun and the other scientists in New Mexico had proof that they could build an atomic bomb. They’re responsible for more deaths than my beliefs ever will be.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Nice try. I’ll let reasonable people decide for themselves whether you were implying something. You’ve complained before about me responding to a discussion you’re having with someone else, as though it were a private discussion. It was a reasonable assumption to make on my part.

            Making assumptions is very scientific. It’s a requirement. A scientist has an idea. The idea must be based on certain assumptions. A big part of the testing is to confirm that those assumptions hold up. If they don’t, you’re done, or you have to change the assumptions. OK….. you say I assumed wrong. So why, specifically DID you make that point so explicitly?

            Why do I hang out here? I think another atheist and I may have shut down the Catholic blog. They stopped posting new material. I thought maybe they were blocking me, but they seem to have realized that they were feeding a couple atheists the opportunity to debunk one post after the other. Outright lies in some cases. I don’t know if that’s it, but for now you’re stuck with me. Bwahahaha…

            I work at home, alone. One of the few things I miss is chatting at the water cooler, going out to lunch, having a brew after work. So in a way, this provides some socialization for me.

            Mostly it’s a way to keep sharp, and continuing to learn. My dad had dementia; I’m going to put it off for as long as I can by keeping my brain active, and you contribute to that, so thank you Annie. I find new paths to research in this blog. I’ve studied evolution, physics, philosophy, neurology, and maybe more. The more I learn, the easier it is to do so. It’s the most fantastic blast I’ve ever had; a lot more fun than when I was making more money than I am now. Compulsive? Addictive? Yeah, probably so. If I don’t get those earbuds in and out on the road running with a book playing I get all antsy. I have another credit in audible – time to pick my next book…

            So there’s your response to my mental health issues, counselor. I feel better. Thanks. Call it a compulsion if it makes you feel better. Sure. Why not? OK, so are you and Raphael going to split the psychiatric counseling fees? Who do I send the check to?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            I made the point explicitly because I was replying to someone I consider to be a reasonable, friendly, searching man with whom I’ve had pleasant exchanges. You and I have had hardly any pleasant exchanges, so I’m certain that I would have either worded it differently, or not shared my experiences with Christie with you at all so that you wouldn’t attack my memories of her.

            The physical sciences are entirely different than the social sciences. A physical scientific theory almost always (these days) emerges from and rests on previous scientific knowledge—they aren’t theorized in a vacuum. The social sciences are different in that one can’t assume the motivation of a person’s actions. One has to go to the source. No assumptions.

            And there’s your dinging me about your listening to books—again. I cannot afford a subscription to Audible Books. Is that plain enough for you? And, as I’ve said before, I am a visual learner with an eidetic memory. Even if I could afford the subscription, I would have to listen over and over again because I’m a visual learner. (And I can’t afford a Kindle subscription either, which I would much more easily learn from.)

            I never claimed to be a counselor. I have served as a guide in peer support groups. One needn’t be a counselor to recognize a compulsion or addiction. One merely has to have the knowledge and experience to recognize the elephant in the room.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Annie – I asked why you specifically said “First, my reply wasn’t to you.” That statement was directed to me, right? So, why did you say that, unless you were trying to chastise me for being so bold as to insert myself into your ongoing discussion. My assumption was correct. That’s now quite clear.

            I wasn’t interested in your friend – I was interested in the ridiculous claim that plants can be healed with a touch or a thought.

            How on earth did I ding you about listening to books? I was describing what I do. You criticize me for hanging out here. I said that I get a lot of good ideas about what to research and study, and mentioned my books. There was not a word in what I said that criticized you or anyone else for not listening to audible books, so what was that rant all about? Your defensiveness is very telling! As a side note – I often listen to my books more than once, because it is easier to absorb the written word. It’s hard to turn back the audio when I’m running, but quite easy to read a page again.

            Once again you have no sense of humor, or you missed my interactions with Raphael in which he also offered psychological counseling just like you are. I do thank you again for reconfirming that I am compulsive and addicted – and maybe this time you’ll get the joke…. where do I send my check Dr. Annie? (But be careful of the malpractice suit).

            Once again – as always – we end up discussing something outside the subject matter – that being whether people can cure plants with a touch or a thought. Once again, you make it all about personalities; all about me. You can’t put up a decent defense for your woo – so you go after me. Same thing the fundies and Catholics do.

            I think we’re done with this thread. Too far off topic again.

  • Sam

    I just now had the pleasure to start reading “Awaken the Species”. Currently about ⅓ in. Taking this little break to thinking out loud, thus far.

    Too bad about the HABs (Highly Advanced Beings). They make a mess of things. For one, they haven’t destroyed themselves, even though, and similar to us, are of the violent and reckless kind. Which then brings forward the idea that we can too, to carry on just like we do, and actually still survive, being HABs. This undermines the push towards HEBs (Highly Evolved Beings) as the only solution and option.
    And then to set them apart. What a drag. HEBs and HABs. Asking for help, be on your toes, or you can get f-ed over, if mixing them up.

    One revelation made perfectly clear, is that HEBs can, at will, move back and forth between the physical and metaphysical. Cool. And then the need for spaceships/vehicles be redundant, one should think(?). HABs on the other hand… watch out.

    When searching my memory for references, regarding something/someone moving back and forth between the physical and metaphysical, only Jesus comes to mind. Seems to me he had the ability. Jesus was a HEB. Fits the bill. And “his” second coming is, of course, only us turning HEBs as well. But is this the time?

    The Perfect Time for Advancement, it must certainly says. And why? Because in the time of crisis you go “out of your mind”, and turn to your soul, having a real wake-up call. And I don’t think we are talking about anything small—crisis that is. So, what we, in fact, are told, is that some really heavy-duty sh*t is coming for all of us, and the world, pretty much just about now, as for this being The Perfect Time for Advancement.

    To recap. In the most critical time, you will be out of your mind, and to reach out to HEBs—which has been there all along—will help you transform into a HEB as well, and be safe; moving back and forth between the physical and metaphysical.
    Hmm, this actually reminds me of a painting. Jesus (this HEB) walking on water, standing next to the boat with Peter, in support, and wait, for him to walk on water as well. And, of course, in the middle of a life treating storm (a most critical time), the perfect opportunity. That one picture pretty much sums all of this up. But do we dare think we could ever walk on water—literally? Becoming HEBs ourselves in an instant? Only one step away? Maybe when being “out of our minds”; in the absence of all doubt.

    We are the toddlers of the universe, it says. I must agree. And therefore I don’t think turning into a HEB are for everybody, as for all at once. I think this will be a process still over several centuries, before it includes every single one. Many of us, for quite a while, will be more like HAB’s. Hope I am wrong.

    In critical times, we turn to God. But God says turn to HEB’s. They are in another dimension standing next to you right now. And I am thinking: Why not? I will certainly give it a try. Nothing to lose—now do I?

    Okay, that’s it, thus far. Back to the book and the remaining part 🙂

    • Patrick Gannon

      Is even the tiniest shred of objective evidence provided to support the existence of these beings?

      • Craig

        Miragess created by heat waves from the body, often called Aura, I think…

        • Patrick Gannon

          I’m asking about Neale’s HEBs, which he talks about in CwG4, “Awaken the Species,” his last discussion with his god. I don’t think aura’s have anything to do with HEBs, but who knows – imaginary superheroes can do all sorts of things!

          I have not read the book, and don’t plan to put any more money in Neale’s pocket than I already have. I may read it, if I stumble across a free copy somewhere. However if Neale offers no evidence for these Highly Evolved Beings -and I’m quite confident that he doesn’t; then there’s little motivation for me to read fairy tales, other than to debunk them.

  • Raphael

    I think we need a reminder that this site is not a scientific site…and that we are not here to make scientific claims, unless I am mistaken. I have always been under the impression that the object of these conversations was to exchange ideas about spiritual beliefs. Have I been wrong all along?

    We have a “decider” here who decides, from the great heights of his self-appointed position, who is right and who is wrong on every topic, from spirituality to everything else. His attitude is becoming less and less entertaining and more predictable and overbearing by the day, as he seems incapable of exercising self-reflection…obviously, the more people give in to him, the more emboldened he becomes. Those who challenge him are accused of hate or playing “one-upmanship”.

    This is how all authoritarians operate…whether they espouse religious beliefs or scientific facts.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Sure we are exchanging ideas about spiritual beliefs. Annie says we all get to define “Spiritual” any way we want. It can mean whatever we want it to mean. I am part of that as well, Raphael. We all know you are referring to me. Once again, you’ve made little old “ME” the subject of a thread having nothing to do with the original post, in the process of telling us that we are here to talk about spirituality. I guess that means I’m spiritual! Who knew?

      When you make “spiritual” claims that are also “scientific” claims, then as a “spiritual” person seeking truth, I have every right on this “global conversation” to point out the inaccuracies, and support them, as required.

      You have on numerous occasions tried to turn this into a political blog, so please don’t talk about this being a place for spiritual matters. You call me an authoritarian, yet here you are trying to limit freedom of speech.

      Is it possible that the reason you find me so unbearable, is that I can support what I say with evidence, and few others here even attempt to do so? If you don’t like my style, you don’t have to engage me; but if the subject interests me, I’ll participate – up to the point of personal insults, which you’ve been honing to a fine point. And I’m going to back off the political discussions with you.

      • Raphael

        Wise choice about backing off political discussions with me, as you really don’t stand a chance ha ha…

        Environmental and indigenous activism cannot in my view be separated from spirituality, and because we unfortunately live under a political system they cannot be separated from politics.

        Even the CWG material has political implications, such as with the idea of a world government.

        I don’t find you that unbearable, merely a category 0.05 hurricane…a very mild disturbance, but a persistent one.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Well I sure seem to get you worked up. All I said to start off this series of rants was that you seemed to be very angry. It was actually an expression of concern, but I’m not very good at expressing, so you took it as an insult, and off to the races we went.

          I see no problem with “needing to be right.” Indeed, that’s what it’s all about. If I’m wrong (as it seems I may be about the number of bombs the US is dropping), then I need to update my information base so that I can be “right.” The difference, is that I can be swayed by evidence, while others here have made it clear that their beliefs trump any evidence that might contradict those beliefs. That’s needing to be wrong.

          I am fully prepared to agree that you may know more about politics than I do. We can only be proficient in so many things at a time, and I’ve chosen “spirituality” and science. I trust that my government is not spraying chemtrails, or keeping aliens on ice, or flying planes into buildings. I am skeptical of everything, but I am not going to live my life from a place of distrust. I know that there are very good people in our government who care very much about what they do. I know an old guy in our karate association who is working well past retirement because he is the last step in the quality control check for materials that go to our soldiers on the battlefield, and he takes his job so seriously he won’t quit till he trains someone to be as good as he is. I think he’s nuts, but I absolutely admire his dedication and caring for others.

          For the record, I was for Ira

          I understand how my repetitive calls for evidence, and repetitive recitation of the laws of physics can cause angst (cognitive dissonance). I went through this myself five years ago, give or take, when I participated in a blog called The God Debate, which featured a lot more intellectualism than is found here. I was the New Age guy, pushing CwG woo on the one hand, and debating with Christians and Muslims on the other. The atheists drove me crazy with their constant calls for evidence. I got just as furious and frustrated as some here do. But thanks to repetition, I finally started looking for that evidence, but to no avail. As Neale said above, ” I shall not apologize for the repetition.” Eventually some of you may be tempted to pick up a science book and discover that there is no basis for your belief in woo. Repetition works. Neale says so, and I agree.

          The science tells us beyond reasonable doubt that there are no woo forces that affect us in our natural world. This is now settled science, a handful of crackpots notwithstanding. Science is all about attempting to disprove theories. Nothing in science is ever proven, because we constantly try to disprove our theories. We still test the theory of relativity in ever more sophisticated experiments in an attempt to prove Einstein was wrong. So far, no dice. So have at it. Disprove the laws of physics.

    • I tend to be very sympathetic with your view on this. One answer is simply to not engage. It does get tiresome for sure. Remember, you or any one here doesn’t have to respond back.

      One reason Patrick gets so much air time here, is less what he is posting in response to what Neale writes, but all those that respond back to his posts to others. They all have the right to engage or not engage.

      • Raphael

        Thank you for the reminder Marko…and there I go again responding below. Okay, one last time…

        • Well I mean you don’t have to respond to Patrick and engage him further. Others here, most of them, are not as annoying or tiresome.

          I’m happy to engage most people here, but I do choose my battles.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Because I insist on evidence, as in your assertion that lucid dreaming taps into some sort of consciousness woo. Since you have no evidence, you back out and call me annoying and tiresome. I call that denial.

  • Spiritual_Annie

    now got 3 bars on phone. Me n Biscuit n trailer all ok. More later.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • Jethro

      AWESOME SAUCE!!! Sounds like your home made it too, even better!!! Happy to hear your doing well.

    • Kristen

      Xxx

    • Thanks for the update, glad you are okay.

    • Patrick Gannon

      As a (current) Florida gal, I thought you might appreciate this email exchange…(with minor identification and language edits!)

      Sister1: (Note, she’s the “spiritual” one!)

      U can forward this to the others. Hot as hell. No power. Fvcking Rick Scott is a douche bag and no Calvary in town. Publix is open. ..only silver lining but NO FvCKING ICE!!!!! Why the hell do they sell meats and dairy if people have no ice to keep those things cold?????
      Because they have no F ING power to keep things cold or no ice.
      Same scenario as hurricane Andrew. What a crock. Such big talk in getting thousands of people to help in getting grids up etc.

      U do realize all of FL was affected. I get it. But have a PLAN!!! Our ice and frozen jugs are melted. We can survive with what we have but really insane.
      ..
      My husband Mr “I can handle everything” dropped the ball by not getting a fvcking generator like we had in Miami and got us through hurricane Charley 10 yrs ago. It is dead …no longer works. Complacency. No hurricanes like this one in awhile…so why bother buying one in case we have a DISASTER so we would be able to keep the fridge going and I would not be driving between Winn dixie and publix twice a day looking for ice!!!! So that us what is going on with me. My store has no power. My boss has her ill 93 yr old in her hot house and has no power either.
      This reminds me of the camping we all did in the heat of SUMMER but for some reason it was not as bad.

      Brother1, located outside of FL:

      The F-bombs are a good sign. That means Sister1 is alive and kicking (her husband ). I definitely wouldn’t rely on the Calvary. We saw no one for two weeks after Andrew.

      Glad to get the update from Sister2 about what’s going on.

      So, Sister3, where are you at? Made it to Miami? If so, how’s your place look?

      Sister5, has the water drained? Did you let the pig move into the house for a few days?

      Sister5

      I’m living the dream here in swampland. I just had a snake jump out of the grill when I walked past and yes I screamed like a girl. The pig has moved into the garage and has gotten into every single box of papers, gadgets, tools, you name it. The carpet I put down for him was covered in black ants but the leaf blower did a good job getting rid of them.

      The neighbors are reporting gators all over their property and our house is an island in the middle of a pond. The water is still too deep to get my car out of the garage so I use Husband’s SUV but he has to drive it to the gate because I can’t see the road and then he shuffles back to the house in the water.

      We made the decision to put Hans the wonder dog in a kennel for a week or two so he can get some kind of normalcy back. He goes to doggie daycare during the week on a regular basis so now he is just spending the night. He was also having a hard time at the house with no electricity and as a long hair German Shepherd I was afraid of him getting heat stroke.

      Last night we finally got our air back on and cable to boot so I am so freaking happy and can’t complain. Dale is at the grocery store now and we have to restock the fridge. I am bringing the spoiled food to the dumpster at work because there is no way we can get our trash can to the curb.

      I know exactly how Sister1 feels and unfortunately from what I hear the southern counties may not get ac until September 22nd. I think most southern counties have 50% vs in my area the percentage is 20% still waiting. There are caravans of electric trucks constantly going down the highway. A lot of my area traffic lights are out and it is mayhem driving around. I’m sure Sister3 will find the same scenario as Sister1 in Miami and this saga will be ongoing for them for quite awhile.

      Right now I see a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel but I’m also keeping an eye on the two new storms that are developing off the coast of Africa. Good times!

      I will skip the earlier exchange in which one sister offered to trade a needy old woman for snakes and gators…

      Hope things get back to normal for you soon.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        I’m doing better than many. We now have electricity, my cell phone became more reliable yesterday, and now I’ve woken to discover my WiFi is even on. One convenience store opened yesterday for cash only business as he still has no electricity. He said seven days of no business and he’d lose the place, which he just bought a couple of months ago.

        Neighbors are helping neighbors here. Our Publix and Save-a-Lot are still closed. When I went to look for my homeless friend and also asked about stores nearby being open that have food and their electronics are up (my money’s on my debit card), I was immediately given two packs of Ramen noodles by a complete stranger.

        The food banks are, of course, closed like everything else, but my Case Manager dropped off some food their agency generally has on hand for children. I bought food, treats and Omegas for Biscuit last month, and he’s already over it all, except for the sniffing. I’m guessing everything smells different after things get moved around during a storm.

  • Spiritual_Annie

    So, you know you’re Spiritual when you stop worrying about whether you’re going to live or die when the largest Atlantic hurricaine in recorded history switches paths and heads straight for you. I knew that if anything happened to me and my physical body should die, I would not, and I knew it with certainty.

    As it turned out, the nazi-police came around with their bus in the evening, supposedly to take me, with Biscuit as my service dog for my PTSD, to a special needs shelter. First, anargument about whether Biscuit had to be in a carrier ensued, probably because Biscuit doesn’t react well nazi-agressive men in uniform (one held Christie hostage for five hours, beating and raping her and breaking some of Biscuit’s ribs). Then I was told I could bring him on his leash, but that we might get sent to separate areas in the facility. When they finally said we’d be going to separate facilities and that they couldn’t guarantee when or IF I’d get Biscuit back, we got off the bus.

    My neighbor had a place to go set up, but in the end he couldn’t talk his girlfriend into going. So, we stayed in the trailer. During the worst of it, we were in the bathroom, curled up on two king-sized bed pillows. But it was so low-key in there with no windows that I went back to sleep. Woke to find two window panes (plexiglass, taped in) blown out and a palm tree that lay itself down right between my trailer and my neighbor’s old Suburban he’s been working on for years. No electricity, though it’s back on for now. Both it and cell service are spotty. I’m typing this quickly, using my phone as a WiFi Hotspot so I don’t have to type on an itty bitty screen.

    I’ve been in touch with my Case Manager, whose office only opened today, because food is a problem. While we have electricity here, it’s not up yet at either convenience store, and so far the grocery stores aren’t answering the phone. It was off long enough here that everyone’s food spoiled. My Case Manager’s to call me back when she finds out how she can help. Meanwhile I’m living on boullion, but I’m sure it will all work out.

    Just wanted to let y’all know we’re still here and we still have a home.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • Jethro

      Great news Annie, that you made it. Some of the information not so great! Tape makes the repairs fairly simple it sounds like when it’s available. I wonder if postal services are still operating in the area.

    • Kristen

      Glad to know you are both fine BUT scary that in the end you ended up staying at home. I guess thats the way life works, if it was still as bad as forecast things would be different….I hope.
      Take care Annie,
      K
      xx

    • Raphael

      Wow…so glad you are safe Annie. no matter what, you can never be totally prepared, but dried food is probably good to have for emergencies (nuts and dried fruits), although it can be expensive. Also something to filter water…such as Lifestraw, it filters instantly while you drink.

      These events will happen more often…here, it’s out of control fires…you have to be ready to evacuate within 20 minutes, anytime of the day or night…have all you plan to keep or need ready to take with you!

      Soon, we will all sleep with our boots on!

      I appreciate your description of the nazi-police…they are not so bad where I live, but I have seen some on the east coast that look and act like they just stepped off a WW2 movie set.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        This guy on the bus, who I intend to report, was just a Largo Fire and Rescue employee. I’ve worked for various local governments and know it’s everyone pitching in, doing things that aren’t part of their usual jobs. This guy came off as an underling who finally felt powerful because someone handed him a clipboard and a vest. Biscuit picked up on it before I did, but I pay attention to him as well as myself. I hope he’s back to his menial job soon.

        The nazi-police here vary from location to location. The County Sheriffs are the worst. One, after Christie got loud about a hospital not giving her a bus pass home (normal for those who come in by ambulance but are released), pulled her outside the hospital and body slammed her to the ground, even though it was only coincidence he was there. When she went down, her hands that had been in front of her ended up underneath her, so he decided to take her in on charges of resisting arrest because she couldn’t pull them out when he ordered.

        She claimed to be 5’0″ (but I suspect an inch or two shorter) and was a size 0. She had 63 separate bruises, from his clear fingermarks wrapped more than all the way around her upper arm to the bruises and contusions from being thrown to the ground then have a knee shoved in her back (another visible bruise). She was suiing both the County Sheriff’s Office and the officer when she passed. He wasn’t an aberration, though, as I can attest to my own treatment when stopped basically for “walking while looking homeless” (the official report said only that one of us looked “nervous”). We were intimidated, insulted, accused without proof, and frisked by a female officer before being let go.

        Others are so nice and actually care about those they serve. Unfortunately, the former far outweigh the latter, in my experience.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie