Worldwide Discussion:
DOES GOD SAY HOMOSEXUALITY
IS AN ‘ABOMINATION’?

The views of humanity on so many things have been impacted by our ideas about God and about God’s desiresthat it’s hard to decide what other areas of life interaction to include on this list. The truth is, this exploration could take up an entire book. We’re not going to be that expansive. We’ll limit our survey to ten more subjects: Male and Female, Marriage, Sex, Homosexuality, Love, Money, Free Will, Suffering, Morality, and Death.

Let’s take a look at what our ancestors and our contemporary teachers have told us about these things. Let’s see What God Wants.

MALE and FEMALE…Many humans have been told that What God Wants is for humanity to understand that God is male. The result is that most people who believe in a deity at all hold this to be true. The idea that God is masculine is so pervasive that it’s shocking to the ear to hear God referred to as “She.”

Many humans have also been told that God wants men and women to have particular roles and to be treated in particular ways in life, and that He has specified all of this in Holy Scripture.

One result of this teaching: Males are considered superior to females in nearly all of the world’s cultures. In some of those cultures this manifests as cultural norms that do not allow females to go to school, to hold jobs of authority or responsibility, to leave the home without being in the company of a blood male relative, or to permit any part of their body to be seen in public, requiring them to be covered from head to toe.

A woman’s testimony at Court is worth half of that of a man’s—meaning that it requires two female witnesses to meet the test of adequate proof. A woman’s testimony regarding a husband’s beatings, cruelty, or infidelity will go ignored unless she can produce a corroborating witness, whereas a man can send his wife to death by stoning by simply stating that she committed adultery. His singular assertion is sufficient.

A woman’s share of any inheritance is also accepted as being half of that of her brother. The logic behind this is that a man is financially responsible for his family, while a woman is not. This is the identical logic that, in other cultures, blocks women from earning the same pay as men for doing the same work. The fact that a man may remain unmarried all his life and wind up not having a family, or that many women become widows, or that women would not and should not have to concede this role to a man if she were treated equally, is, of course, ignored by this logic.

In some male-dominant cultures female’s genitals are mutilated, cut and sewn, in order to deprive them of sexual pleasure and thus reduce the temptation they may feel to engage in sexual encounters other than those demanded by their husbands. In some cases this is seen as a rite of passage rendering female children desirable, suitable, and worthy marriage material.

Other cultural norms reflecting extreme bias against females include the custom of blocking women from becoming clergy in many religions or rising to power and authority in any civil, legal, or business enterprise, or holding any major leadership position in politics or government.

A handful of women in some cultures have overcome these customs (in many cultures they are still not allowed to even try), but always it’s a struggle, always it’s the notable exception, always it’s a steep uphill climb to be accepted in most high profile occupations or powerful or influential roles within the global society.

Katrina Brooks, of Rome, Georgia, U.S.A., knows all about that. According to an account written by Louise Chu for The Associated Press on September 25, 2004, Katrina is a member of the Southern Baptist Church who felt a calling and wanted to become a minister. She enrolled in the Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond, Virginia, then found a church that would accept both her and her husband, Dr. Tony Brooks, who was already ordained, as co-pastors. North Rome Baptist Church in Rome, Georgia invited the couple to lead its congregation in November of 2003.

Not everyone was pleased.

A revision of the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000 takes a hard line on female pastors, the AP’s Louise Chu reports. The denomination’s chief doctrinal statement says that “the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture,” citing the Bible at 1 Timothy 2:11-14. That passage reads, “Let a woman learn in silence in all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.”

Two weeks after Katrina and her husband arrived at their new church several of her fellow clergy (all men) called meetings of the Floyd County Baptist Association to discuss the matter. They wanted the association to adopt a position that would, in effect, force the Rome church to leave the association.

This difference in the treatment of the genders is, many of the world’s people believe, What God Wants. After all, the Bible says so. And so do the Scriptures of other religions.

This is Part IV of an extended series of headline articles in The Global Conversation.

MARRIAGE…Many humans have been told that What God Wants is for marriage to be an everlasting union between a man and a woman, for better or for worse, for the purpose of propagating the species and maintaining a civil society organized into family units, which supports God’s agenda for humanity.

One result of this teaching: In most religious cultures ending a marriage for whatever reason, including mental or physical cruelty, is deeply discouraged, and one major religion tells its followers that they may never divorce, may never remarry in the church nor receive the church’s sacraments if they do divorce, and may never marry another person who has been divorced.

In many places and cultures marriage rules are established by religion, then become civil law, limiting and constricting the behavior of marriage partners—and those limits remain in place for life. Chief among those limits is what humans call “fidelity.” Human beings living in marriage must remain faithful to each other. That is, they may not have sexual experiences with anyone else for the rest of their lives—not as a matter of personal devotion or sacred agreement, but as a matter of civil law.

This should not be surprising, since, as has just been noted, prohibitions against many kinds of private sexual activity have been placed in the common culture by religions. According to their accounts of What God Wants, human beings may not have sex with anyone outside of marriage, with anyone prior to marriage, and, therefore, should they never marry, at no time during their entire lives.

This is the expectation, and humans are told that the breaking of this taboo can lead to severe punishments, from God and from the social environment.

As a result, marriage is entered into by many young people around the world who are neither ready for such a commitment nor sufficiently mature for the responsibilities attached to it, but who are unwilling to endure any longer the prohibition against sexual experience.

The idea of male supremacy, drawn from the concept of God as male, has a major effect in many marriage scenarios. In some cultures marriage is considered a form of ownership and servitude, with the woman being the owned object—actually paid for with a dowry—and the male being the person served. Even in cultures with less extreme views a wife is expected to be “obedient” to her husband, and to be subservient to him in every way. The man is “the head of the household.”

This is, many people believe, What God Wants.

SEX…Many humans have been told that What God Wants is for sexual union to be experienced only with one’s spouse for the purposes of procreation and the expression of love.

One result of this teaching: Millions of people believe that sex may absolutely never be experienced in any way that deliberately prevents conception, and that while sex is wonderful, to experience sex simply for pleasure with no possibility of procreation is against the will of God and, therefore, “unnatural,” immoral, shameful and a giving in to baser instincts.

As with the combining of fear and love in the earlier understanding of God, the combining of pleasure and shame in this construction has produced chronic emotional confusion: wonder, excitement and passion, yet embarrassment, fear and guilt about sexual desires and experiences.

In most cultures the sexual parts of human bodies may not be referred to by name. The words vagina and penis are not to be used in public (except as absolutely necessary in a purely clinical setting), and never with small children. The words wee-wee, pee-pee, or bottom may be used freely. In short, the human culture agrees that the actual names of certain body parts are shameful and embarrassing and are to be avoided whenever possible.

Again, you may believe that the above assertion is a bit of an exaggeration. I assure you it is not. Internationally known columnist Molly Ivins reports in the September/October 2004 issue of Mother Jones magazine that Advocates for Youth, a group working for comprehensive sex education, had its funding for AIDS prevention yanked by the Center for Disease Control, a U.S. government agency, because “young people [in the project’s video] used the correct terminology for male and female anatomy.” That, said James Wagoner, head of Advocates for Youth, “is absurd. What is the president going to do? Issue an executive order that every man, woman, and child should refer to the penis as a dingaling?”

And, of course, if one cannot speak of certain body parts, one certainly cannot show them. Not even, apparently, to oneself. Yet another exaggeration? I’m sorry to say, no. So puritanical is the viewpoint on all of this in many places that the following letter could actually appear, without anyone blinking an eye, in over 300 newspapers in the United States on September 25, 2004 in an advice column:

“Dear Abby: I went to wake up my 14-year-old daughter today and discovered her sleeping in the nude. Apparently she has been doing it for some time.

“Normally she is good about getting up and I haven’t needed to enter her room to awaken her. When I asked her why she does it, she said it’s more comfortable and she sleeps better.

“When I told her I was not comfortable with it, she asked me why, and frankly I could not come up with a good reason other than it seemed ‘wrong,’ and fear about what would happen in an earthquake or fire. She questioned how it could be wrong if no one knows—unless they walk into her room without knocking (as I did).

“She keeps a long robe next to the bed so she can put it on in case of emergency. (Indeed, she walks around the house in that robe, and I thought she had a nightgown underneath, when in fact she has been naked underneath since Christmas.)

“I am still not comfortable with it, but we agreed to abide by your advice. Is it OK for her to sleep in the nude, and why—or why not?

–Worried Mom in San Leandro.”

The columnist wrote back that there was “nothing inherently wrong” with sleeping in the nude. “Look at the bright side,” she advised the mother. “It makes for less laundry.”

As this parent’s letter makes clear, many humans feel that certain body parts must be covered and hidden, having been deemed too arousing or too shameful, or both. For those parts not to be covered is incorrect and unacceptable. Indeed, in many places it’s actually illegal, with punishments in civil law for those who fail to obey.

Many people believe that sex experienced in certain ways, even between husband and wife, is “unnatural” and therefore immoral. And again, in many times and places, some experiences, although between consenting adults, have actually been made illegal. Those who wrote such legislation said that they understand that God does not want certain sexual experiences to occur. God sends people to hell for this.

Humans also believe that intensely graphic depictions of sexual activity in photographs, drawings, comic books, video games, television and motion pictures are distasteful, repugnant, disgusting and unacceptable. Intensely graphic depictions of extreme physical violence and killing are, however, entirely acceptable.

Millions of humans believe that sexual energy and spiritual energy do not mix. They have been told that sexual energy is a “lower chakra” energy, and that sexual activity and spiritual clarity essentially oppose each other. Persons seeking to achieve spiritual mastery are therefore advised against engaging in sexual experiences. Some are actually required to remain abstinent.

This is, many of the world’s people believe, What God Wants.

HOMOSEXUALITY…Many humans have been told that What God Wants is for sex to be experienced between a male and a female only, and for same-gender sexual interaction to be considered an abomination.

One result of this teaching: Humans for whom same-gender sexual attraction feels most natural have been denounced, vilified, condemned, ostracized, isolated, assaulted, and killed by people who believe they are doing God’s will.

The sad account of the killing of Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming offers us a now-famous case in point. Shepard, an openly gay freshman at the University of Wyoming, was dragged out of a bar in Laramie by two young men, driven to a deserted road outside of town, tied to a cow fence and beaten so severely that he lapsed into a coma and died five days later.

His youthful assailants were apprehended and sentenced to life in prison, but the Reverend Fred Phelps, pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas was not inclined to let the matter rest there. Every year for the five years following Matthew’s brutal beating and death this Christian minister has traveled to Laramie, as well as to Casper, Wyoming, Matthew’s birth place, to “celebrate” his death. And, according to a report in the Los Angeles Times by reporter David Kelly, on October 12, 2003 Reverend Phelps brought with him to Casper a granite monument engraved with Matthew’s face, followed by these words chiseled in stone:

“Matthew Shepard Entered Hell October 12, 1998 at age 21 In Defiance of God’s Warning: ‘Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.’ Leviticus 18:32.”

It was the Reverend Phelps who also attended Matthew Shepard’s funeral and, as the young man’s parents, family, and friends stood in mourning, screamed: “God hates fags!”

With this level of clarity as to the Divine Intention and Desire, entire countries have been forced under power of governmental authority and rule of law to obey God’s Will in this matter. In some nations the civil penalty for homosexuality is death—burial under a 12-foot concrete wall. In many places civil law has been created making gay marriage illegal. In the United States the president in 2004 personally campaigned to have his understanding of God’s desires regarding prohibition of gay marriage written into his country’s Constitution.

While certain sexual feelings may be very natural to the persons feeling them, they are not What God Wants, many people say, and are therefore, by definition, “unnatural.” A report on October 20, 2003 by Chris Zdeb of CanWest News Service in the Calgary Herald in Edmonton, Canada points to the possibility that the exact opposite may be true.

“Scientists have discovered 54 genes that suggest sexual identity is hard-wired into the brain before birth, and before development of the sex organs,” the journalist reports, and goes on to say:

“The findings released today by a team of University of California, Los Angeles, researchers could mean that sexuality, including homosexuality and transgender sexuality, are not a choice.”

Nevertheless, the clergy of many of the world’s largest religious denominations continue to assert that God condemns such sexual experiences.

Reporter Rachel Zoll of the Associated Press reported on October 7, 2004 that the most influential Anglican leader in Africa—home to nearly half the world’s Anglicans—said that the U.S. Episcopal Church has created a “new religion” by confirming a gay bishop in New Hampshire, breaking the bonds between the denominations with roots in the Church of England.

Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria also said in an exclusive AP interview with Zoll that he views the head of the Episcopal Church as an advocate for gays and lesbians and no longer trusts him. His comments come less than two weeks before an international panel was scheduled to release a critical report on whether the global Anglican Communion can bridge its divide over homosexuality. The Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch of Anglicanism; Akinola leads the Anglican Church of Nigeria.

“The Communion is shattered. It is broken,” Akinola said. “The commonality that bound us together is no longer true.” (More separation in the name of God.)

Zoll’s report says that Akinola insisted he did not hate gays, despite his fiery comments in the past protesting the growing acceptance of homosexuality. He once called the trend a “satanic attack” on the church. But he said he could not accept attempts to “superimpose” modern culture on Scripture by ignoring what he said were Biblical injunctions against gay sex.

“I didn’t write the Bible. It’s part of our Christian heritage. It tells us what to do,” Akinola said. “If the word of God says homosexuality is an abomination, then so be it.”

The Zoll story goes on to say that those who support ordaining gays contend Scripture does not ban same-sex relationships, and that there was no understanding in biblical times that homosexuality was, as science is now proving, a natural orientation, not a choice.

Nevertheless, for many of the world’s people the afterlife consequence of engaging in such unnatural activities is understood to be everlasting damnation and torture in the fires of hell.

This is, those people believe, What God Wants.

LOVE…Many humans have been told that What God Wants is for love to be conditional. God has made it clear that He loves humans if they do what He wants. If they do not, humans shall know His wrath. They’ll be condemned to everlasting damnation.

Some say that God acts with love when He condemns people to eternal and unending torture. With this explanation they seek to preserve the image and the notion of a loving God.

One result of this teaching: Many people are very confused about the true nature of love. Human beings “get,” at some deeply intuitive level, that the imposing of unending punishment is not a loving thing to do. Yet they are told that such punishment is a demonstration of the purest and highest love. It’s God’s love in action.

It’s not unusual for human beings to therefore be afraid of love, even as they have been made afraid of God, who is the source of love. They have been taught that God’s love can turn into wrath in a flicker, producing horrifying results. This packaging of love and fear in human theology has not been without consequences in human behavior.

Earlier it was said, “Humanity’s ideas about God produce humanity’s ideas about life and about people.” This is profoundly true, and thus, many humans are afraid of and attracted to love at the same time. Often their first thought upon moving into a closer love relationship with another is, “Now what is this person going to want, or need, or expect from me?” That is, after all, the nature of their love relationship with an all-powerful God, and they have no reason to believe it will be any different with a much weaker human being.

There is also the corollary thought that partners in a relationship have a right to expect certain things in exchange for love—that love is a give-and-take, quid pro quo proposition.

These expectations and fears undermine many love relationships at the outset.

Because love and the worst torture imaginable have been linked in the minds of humans as natural activities on the part of God, most humans believe that it’s right and proper to punish other humans for their behaviors—just as God does.

In perhaps the most dramatic demonstration of this, many human beings believe that it’s appropriate to kill human beings as a warning to human beings that it’s inappropriate to kill human beings.

This is, many of the world’s people believe, What God Wants.

MONEY…Many humans have been told that What God Wants is for money to be considered the root of all evil. Money is bad and God is good, and so money and God do not mix.

One result of this teaching: The higher one’s purpose and the greater one’s value to society, the lower one’s income must be. Nurses, teachers, public safety officials and those in similar service professions are not to ask to make much money. Ministers, rabbis and priests are to ask even less. Homemakers and mothers, under this guideline, should have no personal income at all. If they want something for themselves, they may ask their husband for a few dollars, or scrimp pennies from the grocery money.

The message here is: Because “filthy lucre” is bad, because money is intrinsically evil, pay must be in reverse proportion to the value of the function performed. The better the deed, the worse the pay. People should not get lots of money for doing good things. And if they’re doing something really, really, really good, they should want to do it for free.

Humans have created a disconnect between “doing good” and being well compensated. On the other hand, doing things of somewhat less lasting intrinsic value can produce compensation in the millions. So can illegal activity of all kinds. Thus, society’s values discourage noble actions and encourage triviality and illegality. Humanity’s watchword is: The higher the purpose, the lower the reward.

This is, many of the world’s people believe, What God Wants.

(Our exploration of this topic continues in Part V of this extended series, coming very soon. Don’t miss a single entry. And if you wish to catch up on installments that you have missed, simply click on the word HEADLINE in the Categories list at right, then scroll down to find the column you wish to read.)

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  • mewabe

    Google: “Woman to be caned for being raped by 8 men”. Another day under the religious patriarchy.

    If anything is abominable, it surely is religion. How can so many people be so lost spiritually that they believe in this garbage? It has always baffled me…

    • Kristen

      Don’t blame religion, blame the individuals. Horrid people latch onto anything that seems to give them consent for anything evil and sadistic. This is nothing to do with the Biblical God, he stated if having pre marital sex people should get married, not HAVE to.

      Nearly winter – time to hibernate!!!!

      • mewabe

        It is true that people will use anything to attempt to legitimize their brutality and savagery…whether it is a religion, a political ideology, a flag or some other bull dropping (the woman to be caned for being raped is under Islamic law).

        Human beings seem to love to fight and to suffer, in spite of all protests to the contrary. And they use anything at their disposal to trigger, sustain and justify suffering and strife. This is a strange, primitive world.

        As I mentioned before animals are more rational, they fight for some reasonable causes, and only when they need to: for food, for sex, for territory. Human beings are truly insane, by comparison, fighting unnecessarily for ridiculous ideas and out of pure madness and meanness.

        • Christopher Toft

          “There goes the whole idea of marriage, down the toilet where it belongs as a religious institution, using simple logic.”
          I don’t entirely agree with you Mewabe about marriage. I recently took part in a Buddhist ceremony called taking refuge. It’s basically making a strong commitment to the spiritual path though ritual and solemn vows. I found this ceremony to be deeply profound, joyful and enthused with meaning & significance. I think marriage too could be a solemn vow to commit to loving caring and sharing your life with someone and be experienced in this way. I think relationships are sacred and we don’t “need” marriage but it can be a useful spiritual tool.

          • mewabe

            I completely understand marriage as a spiritual and loving ceremony and statement of commitment that does not involve the State or any Christian, Jewish or Islamic religious authority in any way (these are the worst offenders).
            When the State gets involved, it becomes a legally binding contract which, the way I see it, contradicts the very nature of love, which is or should be about complete trust.

          • Michael L

            Doesn’t everyone in the USA who gets legally married, have a civil marriage license? So religion isn’t a prerequisite.

          • mewabe

            They call it a license, but it is actually a contract. Most who have broken this contract (divorce) have been penalized by a judge for doing so, according to obsolete religious laws (“The modern concept of alimony is derived from English ecclesiastical courts that awarded alimony in cases of separation and divorce.” Wikipedia).

            So not only is it a contract, but one that is founded on religious laws.

          • Kristen

            Again, stop putting things against God’s religions. It is just people who happen to be in his religions doing this. There are not defined marriage requirements in the bible, nor government or religious requirements. In the very beginning is was just along the lines of “you will join together as man and wife” etc. No ceremonies required. I guess this makes a complete mockery of ‘living in sin’ because all they appeared to do to become man and wife was move in together. This then probably means if you are living together, then you are married based on the origins of the word. But people then treat living together the same as just flatmates sharing a bed without the deeper bonds etc, so I personally feel a manmade marriage or commitment ceremony is a huge step with much more love, good intentions and commitment to the other.
            And I hate the word partner when you are too old to say boyfriend

          • mewabe

            I would never think that the Divine is in any way responsible for what people choose to do in the name of what they call God, or Allah, etc…

          • Michael L

            Say yes Micheal, your accurate.
            Or don’t!!!

        • Kristen

          Hi ya,
          The Islam caning example is a perfect example of people doing something hideous to others, then put it against religion and God. I have only really studied Law in the bible and have never come across instructions for canings that I have noticed, other than God stating if Y’shua misbehaved he would receive a caning even if by human hands. Which he did, just after he wrongly told people if they believed in him and God as their father he would offer them immortality. Surely God’s odd statement about this gives a clear indication the J’shua was not the prodigal golden boy after all. And no, I do not support caning or any sadism at all. It’s illegal to even smack your own child in NZ. And I have always acknowledged God has a very mean streak, but at least He acknowledged he was half good and half evil. Unlike other Gods we will not name in here, as his name would start a riot!!!!

          Re pre-marital sex. I was stating what God said about it so people do not think He ordered canings or people to get married. Just one of many examples we have been speaking of where sadists give God a bad rap, and people who have not read the OT believe them. Like you appear to.

          The problem with Christianity is that they ignore what God said, and listen to what other people said, like the Timothy example Neale gave. Just as people put “spare the rod and spoil the child”, ie caning children, against God and His religions. King Solomon said this, not God. They were all told by God and Y’shua not to listen to the words of men when it differs from God, yet they do. The Catholic churches foundations are based on the sexist pig Paul, who was a woman hater. Likewise Y’shua instructed people they were not to impose their religion on anyone, for religion is a free will choice. Again, dominant power hungry people have used and abused God to serve their purpose to dominate others. They can all agree on what God said, it is very clear and some bibles even have His and Y’shuas words in a different colour. It is just that they choose to follow other nutters in the bible as it serves their purpose more.

          God was only ever speaking to one small family, Israelites living on their own private family farm called Israel. This is why the punishments for mediumship, sodomy etc state they are forbidden amongst you, yet he acknowledged people did other things elsewhere and NEVER gave any authority or instructions to go on witchhunts or punish people in other countries. But, yes, Israelites did then spread all over the world taking the bibles with them, but to be honest I think there are probably a lot more Kabbalic or non religious Israelites than Jewish ones.

          • mewabe

            I agree about a lot of what you are saying…about other things I lack the knowledge. But since you have some knowledge, what do you think of the ideas that Y’shua was a Jewish ascetic?
            Also, any thoughts on the “sayings gospel Q”, the Dead Sea Scrolls and on the Nag Hammadi manuscripts (gospel of Thomas, etc)?
            The essene teachings?
            What do you think of a text alleged to be the translation of an ancient Buddhist manuscript referring to an “unknown life of Jesus”, found in India in the late 19th century?

            These are not part of my path, I only connect with the Source (the Divine) directly and as an integral part of the living creation. My way is simple and driven by an inner guidance. But I am always interested in knowing more about other traditions, as there is some truth at the heart of most.

          • Kristen

            Read most of them when studying, looking for Law and the truth. And I was bored senseless although the Dead Sea Scrolls seem to be a lot more truthful than the New Testament.

            Re Y’shua – I am not permitted to speak much about him as I am not in his fan club and both he and I know it would be disrespectful, and I know the consequences if I breach this Law. I chose Law, therefore I also chose consequences for breach of the highest Laws BUT I do not feel he was an ascetic at all. This is only possible if his mothers DNA somehow carries this desire as it is the opposite of God, and priests were to earn double everyone else so is not anything associated with Judaism or Rabbis. But he would have known, like Buddha, that all spiritual teachings must be traded or paid for, as spiritual debt directly translates into financial debt so like most spiritual leaders, will always teach people 1:1 when they are already broke or suggest a temporary vow of poverty. He bred offspring here so was not celibate. One of the disciples was an accountant, they always had money, they visited coffee shops, had money on hand to pay taxes etc so were not as poor as people would assume.

            Yup, intuition and The Source are the way to go. Most information here on earth is channelled by lower entities and a load of crock. Higher entities use intuition and mental telepathy to communication and guides should only speak verbally if absolutely necessary.

          • mewabe

            interesting…we do agree on a lot of things. And yes, true about guides (real ones). They do not interfere except when appropriate and in an emergency, and even then not always. They can give information but the choice and responsibility are always ours.

            I believe in Law in the sense that I know the universe functions on a system of balance…everything has a consequence, and everything balances itself out, right down the middle, like a scale. We see this balance in the natural world, natural laws are inescapable, and the same goes at the spiritual level. It forces us to grow up and become responsible creators (or not, if we choose, like most of humanity, irresponsibility and to take the position of the victim, tossed around like a cork in the sea by “circumstances” seemingly beyond our understanding).

          • Kristen

            You and I both know that any truthful teachings will generally be from The Source, therefore the basic core of them will be the same in most honest teachings! Most Laws are Natural Laws, and ones automated especially the human behaviour/psyche-ology/mannerisms etc ones. Easy to see them all around if you are looking for them!

          • Kristen

            Huge post to Awareness. Lucky I’m finished in here or I’ll be branded as evil!!!!!!! You probably won’t agree with it, that’s OK.

            Take care.

    • Awareness

      Abolish organized religion altogether and forever. And simply return to Spirituality 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

      • Kristen

        CwG is a religion, it meets the criteria.

        • Awareness

          “Conversations with God” does not claim to be a Religion 🙂 “Conversations with God” invites you to find your own “truth”. Religion demands that you accept it as the ONLY “truth” 🙂

          I invite you to read all the “Conversations with God” material CAREFULLY 🙂

          Bless ALL 🙂

          • Kristen

            I know what CwG claims, I have done my homework starting with the first book although I have just skimmed through most. And not bought any! The Universal and Legal definition of a religion is a precise teaching from above Earth, that has a recognised God and a leader on Earth. It’s a religion. Or perhaps you would prefer a cult status.

            It doesn’t matter. It’s only a dispute over a word.

          • Awareness

            Kristen wrote: “I have done my homework starting with the first book although I have just skimmed through most.”

            Would you take a reviewer seriously if they said the above regarding a book? Again, I invite you to read all the “Conversations with God” material word by word, page by page 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Kristen

            Hi Awareness,
            I am replying because you spoke as yourself above about a reviewer, which is very rare. Nice to see there is a person behind the writings of CwG and The Awareness demonic entity whom you are generally quoting.

            What I am replying below is written with love, and a smile. I am not the bad guy. It is not intended to sound rude although I know it will. By love, I mean tough love as I feel sorry for you as I have never encountered anyone so brainwashed, which is very sad. hence it being nice for you so speak for yourself for once. There is hope yet.

            As I said, I know what Neales God has said. I have also spoken many times with Neales God, as I have with the entity The Awareness. I am above them, even a two year old is, they are both negative entities out to deceive people and drive them away from the Biblical God and the real Source by impersonating them. They are both a part of what I define as the ‘false God consortium’ which also contains many Michael impersonators. All mediums who say they have Michaels protection are deceived by them, Michael is one of the Biblical Gods highest Angels, and my Kabbalic Teacher, and covers the Biblical Gods job a lot of the time. God forbids mediumship and channelling, and obviously Michael is nothing to do with it either. This is the depth of deception. I think there are around 200 in this group. I got Intentttt to explain this further earlier in the year for you, he even named many of them if you want to refer back. Many of them, like the two you exault also impersonate The Source. They know their fate, they have nothing to lose. But you do!

            The ringleaders, primarily Neales God who now runs the Afterlife (for not much longer) all met and trained for many years when they were imprisioned in The Abyss. This is back to back with the Void on the top of the Tree of life. Both are places where people learn Universal Law and undergo Christ training etc BUT good people are in the Void (my headspace and my frequency when studying or in here which is very high and makes you quite funny and frivilous under the Laws of Neutralisation to ensure you stay sane and don’t get too deep and serious). Academics and serious people are not well liked at all from above, they are quite simply ‘nothings that know a lot on very few topics – many are new agers’. Evil and those being punished with the hope they will change and fix their ways are banished to the Abyss, which is very serious and they also learn Law but are overseen by God in His role as the Universal God of Law. Who kicks their butts big time. Rev 20: He seized that ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be set free for a short time”. We are now in that period of time as defined in 2 Thess 2, which defines Neales God as he of Lawlessness (full freewill who exalts himself over everything that is God’s and proclaims himself to be God etc along with ‘they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness’. The evil entity you worship as The Awareness is a classic example of Timothy 1:9 which Neale used in this thread “they want to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm”. I cannot believe that one person has fallen under the spell of both The Awareness and CwG. This is why I feel sorry for you, and it’s really sad, so I hope you can find strength and start to learn the truth and think for yourself rather than being dependant on channelled information to fill your God Shaped Hole. IF you do decide to ever read the biblical prophecies I have mentioned, as Mewabe has mentioned in here, The Rapture and other parts of Revelation are manmade and placed in the Bible, they are not correct prophecies, probably dreams of madmen and wishful thinking.

            The CwG quotes you used are good, and legally required disclaimers. He knows Law so well that at least he knows the limitations in promoting Anti-Law and what he MUST comply. Blatant deception is absolutely forbidden, as is specifically stating lies to be the truth. Probably 50% of it is the truth, the rest to corrupt you primarily to pee God off BUT more importantly, to make God not like you not want you in His Heaven and so prevent you from being immortal. They are trying to kill you with deception. They are encouraging obesity etc and many other things from The Afterlife via reincarnation knowing there is a weight restriction on being taken to higher realms. Which for females is 60kg, which means a maximum of 60gr soul/mind/energy field/persona. The cruelest thing is the gay one which was very easy for them to pull off by encouraging people to be reincarnated into opposite gender bodies, and encouraging fathers to produce less testosterone through office jobs etc to alter the brain chemicals of their offspring. This is so sad and really mean, just to prevent people getting to the Real God (through sodomy AND God bashing like in here). I have managed to crack at least 300 different things they are doing to YOU and people like you. But hey, I’m, testifying against them for judgement day and my higher overseer is ready to sit on the last Judgement Throne in Rev 20:11, so it’s my job to understand what they are up to!!!!! Go me!!!

            When studying Law in the Void you can access the basics of public court cases telepathically if you happen to think about a particular matter. If it has been in the highest courts you will ‘feel’ the information telepathically. I wondered if Neale was in trouble for deception, and the court findings are NO. Something about all the disclaimers in the CwG books and Oprah Winfrey. I think something he must have said if on her show at one point. Neale is not deceiving you at all, but his version of God is since you clearly believe anything.

            Be a Truth Seeker – there are quite a few websites, but do not believe anything unless it is the persons personal experience or something not channelled. Channelling is generally only for lower entities, possessed people and schizophrenics, higher ones do not do this.

            If you are wanting me to believe anything then you are up against many many prophecies that have come true, both Biblical and from other sources especially Da Vinci. If you study them and look around you will see many unfolding before your eyes as I do.

            Please open your eyes to the world around you, and don’t be a statistic.

            Not proofread sorry, my sushi is getting warm, and my coffee cold! Don’t know which will be worse!

            xx – A Kabbalic kiss on the forehead which is a blessing. Kabbalah means The Truth, Knowledge and Truth Seeking.

          • Awareness

            Dear Kristen,

            I made reference to a “reviewer” in my previous reply to you because of what you wrote and I quote you again:

            Kristen wrote: “I have done my homework starting with the first book although I have just skimmed through most.”

            How can you expect me (or anyone for that matter) to take you seriously if as you clearly stated above that you have merely just skimmed through most of “Conversations with God”? Which means that you infact by your very words admit that you know very little about the words in “Conversations with God”. Therefore you are in an uninformed position to comment on the whole book. You have to read the book fully before you can offer an informed commentary.

            Kristen, you are neither inferior nor superior to anyone. You cannot claim superiority or inferiority to any entity in the universe, ALL That Is 🙂

            After reading your reply, my HEART feeling is simply I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU 🙂 Again Kristen, I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU 🙂

            I will simply let you walk your soul path. I will continue on my chosen soul path. You go your way and I go mine 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Kristen

            I’m laughing. I know you don’t believe me. You have already chosen to believe channelled information that is contradictory to the information I believe, which is my own personal teachings BUT primarily where I can see prophecies have been fulfilled. Even if my beliefs were different, I would still acknowledge that where prophecises have been fulfilled they are the TRUTH whether I like it or not. CwG teaches there are two sides to every story, I deliberately choose to portray the other side. Any form of, or provoking free thought is good. Keeps alzheimers away, if nothing else.

            I am superior to demons, inferior to most Gods, The Source, Creator and those very high up. To say I would be equal to them would be ego born out of insecurities, a lie and blasphme. But you are correct, 90% of us are equal. I am equal to any other animal. In fact even my cats know this and treat me as a slave to keep me in my place.

            Re the reviewer comment. I know what you meant. It is not the books nor Neale that are a problem for me, it is who the actual channeller is, that he is a fraud and God impersonator and his whole fanbase is based on deception. But you are making informed choice. That is all I am here to point out. Many of the CwG teachings are correct, I have learned from some. I have never disputed this at all.

            We have had this discussion before. Waste of time, but as I mentioned it is rare for you so speak as yourself instead of just quoting The Awareness and CwG, so I replied to you as a person, being yourself.

            Enjoy your journey, mine is fun now the crap is long gone!

          • Awareness

            For reference, below is an excerpt from “Conversations with God” book 2. GOD is telling Neale Donald Walsch that he is the Highest source (This includes each and every one of us too):

            GOD: I said, besides, I could be wrong. Oh, my goodness… you’re not taking this all as gospel, are you?

            NEALE: You mean I’m not supposed to put any stock in this dialogue?

            GOD: Oops, hold it. I think you’ve missed a big part of all this. Let’s go back to Square One: You’re making this all up.

            NEALE: Oh, well, that’s a relief. For a while there I thought I was actually getting some real guidance.

            GOD: The guidance you are getting is to follow your heart.

            Listen to your soul. Hear your self. Even when I present you with an option, an idea, a point of view, you are under no obligation to accept that as your own. If you disagree, then disagree. That is the whole point of this exercise. THE IDEA WASN’T FOR YOU TO SUBSTITUTE YOUR DEPENDENCY ON EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE ELSE WITH A DEPENDENCY ON THIS BOOK. The idea was to cause you to think. To think for your self. And that is who I Am right now. I am you, thinking. I am you, thinking out loud.

            NEALE: You mean this material is not coming from the Highest Source?

            GOD: Of course it is! Yet here is the one thing you still cannot believe: you are the Highest Source. And here is the one thing you still apparently do not grasp: you are creating it all —all of your life—right here, right now. You… YOU… are creating it. Not Me. YOU.
            🙂

    • Christopher Toft

      That’s what happens when we envision the divine as a gigantic person with positive and negative emotions, mind states, needs and desires. As above so below sadly.

      • mewabe

        God as a human…an authoritarian, punishing father. What a strange concept.

        The opposite is equally valid: as below so above. In other words we create God in our image, according to, among other misconceptions, our faulty understanding of love as being conditional, which probably originates first from the way we are raised by our parents, who usually give conditional love as part of the way they train children to behave, and secondly by society that gives us conditional approval for certain behaviors.

        • Christopher Toft

          We agree:)

  • Kristen

    Are you implying many of these view are the Biblical Gods views??? The same God who’s angels visited upon Sarah and blessed her and Abraham when she was clearly wearing a sunfrock showing her chest and thighs? Or the same one who said females cn undertake a higher education once they left school until they were of marriable age? Or the same one who said priests should be married? Or who approved as Deborah as a judge? Or who said females are the helpers and companions of males therefore would automatically be their assistant in any business if self employed? Or who said the firstborn from each womb was to dedicated to him both male and female, as well as the firstborn male? Or who said males were to shift to where the female lived when they got married so she was still around her family – this also means sons will move away when they get marrried so surely females were just as, if not more valuable as it would be them and their husband running the fathers businesses and land? Or whom said females should do embroidery and sell their products to shipping merchants and use the profits to buy land for vineyards – surely this means females were in work, running their own businesses and owned their own land? Or whom made females to His design on the Tree of Life to balance His masculinity working as a couple whom then TOGETHER designed Universal Laws and the Christ concept, who also on the Tree of Life positioned females in Binah who screen and train all people BEFORE they reach God as Christs? If you are implying this Neale, then you have an odd Bible. People have listened to other people, primarily the Church, over God but both God and Y’shua told them not to!!! Particularily, if it is in a conflict with anything God states then it is not of God. Just as He repeats “I am never changing in Exodus and again near the end of the Bible where we now are. In fact we are just moving from your Gods bit in 2 Thessalonians 2 to the very last bit of Revelation where it is all sorted once and for all.

    BUT….I will give you that God is the God of male and female principles. A role delegated to Him by The Source. There are many assignments in this position in Kabbalah as it is directly between Binah (female principles and understanding) and God (Law and male principles) and directly under The Source who is of both.

    If you want to understand this more then you may want to google the Tree of Life Samuel Scarborough and A Journey Through The Tree of Life. These two are similar to my own teachings my God and Michael and make it very easy to understand the real God if you are really interested.

    Take care.

  • Erin

    And out the window, once & for all, goes the old notion of separation of Church & State!
    If anything reflected the constant prosperity & power of Oneness, the incorporation of these 2 entities surely has.
    And See how easily a human being is moved by Fear constructed by another human being…Aye! Masses of humans!…yet, not so effortlessly done by Love.

    Or has ‘this way’ even been truly tried? I don’t see much mention of Love in Our history books. Seems many of those that even proposed such, ended up with fatal holes in their bods rather quickly. Hmmm…???

    Yes, What does a God Want of primitive little 2-leggers struttin’ their stuff on a little blue orb in the middle of Ishkabib, Creation? Perhaps nothing better to Be than a God of patriarchal parasites? Kind of a lowly upholding, no?

    idk…Boys sooo love their toys, but seem to never mind the mess they leave of their play. Perhaps We are merely entertainment for an autistic God being entertained while His Ol’ Lady is picking up the pieces of his last playgrounds? (wonder what She’s wearing?!?)

    Sorry…Shakespeare would have adored the unfolding of Our version of Tragic Comedy! 😀

  • Is it possible that society will be divided in two, one where conscious people who are awake and or awakening, the other where the status quo is kept & defended?

    These two segments will blend as they do now in our society, but with even greater disparity between the two, which will give more contrasts as to what works & what doesn’t.

    This division will allow people to see the contrasts even more so than right now.

    This contrast will be what the world debate will have on what is more beneficial for our world.

  • Kristen

    Neale – you keep getting things wrong and dissing the real God in the process. I won’t correct everything but He stated Priests were to earn double their parishioners wages, they have never been undervalued.

    I think it is high time for me to leave, this is doing my head in. People who have never read the bible, believing people who have never read the bible properly and embarking on complete unnecessary God bashing!!! This has become like some weird christian church where people believe lies and random people, over God. I do not understand how people who know nothing of the Biblical God can discuss Him????????????? Why not discuss Neptune or another God that people do not know much about either? Or even just your own CwG God and leave the biblical God out of it all??? He does not diss or disrespect your God like you people do, nor do those of his true faiths have websites and threads dedicated to ‘We hate Conversations with God teachings’ etc. Well I assume not anyway.

    Guess it’s easy to deceive people with blind faith in what anyone writes, right?????

    • Christopher Toft

      Or perhaps, just perhaps, your ideas about god are incomplete?

      • Kristen

        Christopher I am not targetting this at you, I have 5 disqus alerts of replies today so I’m putting them all in here and yours was the first reply I scrolled down to. Sorry.

        Christopher – No absolutely not. At the top of the Tree of Life, which was my journey for many years, there is the Biblical God in His role as the God of Law, Christs and The Source. These are all I acknowledge. When people are above a certain level they only communicate with thought telepathy and intuition, anything chanelled is from lower entities. I know the God I am under very very very well. Neales God is not this God, it is another who was ruling the afterlife, therefore reincarnation, therefore most people on Earth from 1977 until 21 December 2012.

        General – We are now in the age of consequences and at the very end of prophecies where all are judged for their deeds, and God, the Hindu Gods and The Source make final choices who they are giving immortality to and who they are choosing to be in their realms. Religion is not really of any purpose now as these decisions have already been made. If you look at the 2nd half of Revelation 20 it explains how the sea will give up the dead etc, which is why most people here are reincarnated, with Neales Gods role of giving and encouraging full freewill so that these decisions may be based on people being completely honest. The Afterlife will be no more, The Source is now shutting it down so it is now a life or death situation for everyone. Based on judgement being deeds based, but with the Law of Intent included in this as it is known many people do not have the opportunity to carry out positive acts for whatever reason, it is only those wanting to get into God’s Heaven (not Neales God) that need to comply with, and please God. Others can please The Source primarily with beauty and perfection, Creator by being an Earth lover and a natural person like Mewabe is and Native Americans are etc. There are I think 7 different heavens in total, all looking for their final people.

        Neales God is prophecised about in 2 Thessalonians 2, and has had God’s support in his deception. But he gets locked away permanently soon, obviously his 1000year stint in prison wasn’t enough!!

        I’m in here as the good guy, one of my teachers (like guides) from the Christ Levels asked me to point this out in here for no reason other to ensure people are making informed choice and not assuming Neales God and the Biblical God are the same one. It is too late into the end for people to be mistaken on this. Again, Neales God had consent to do this, is a legitimate God of the Dead and Afterlife, and Neale was not deceiving people AND one book, perhaps book 3 actually states “I am a new God’ so he has disclosed that he is not the biblical God.
        No-one had done anything wrong, it is just a matter of awareness of who we follow and the danger of dissing the Biblical God just because people do not agree with some of his rules and views. No-one has too, it is only of relevance if people want to be in His Heaven.

        • Christopher Toft

          Okay if you are sure about what you believe you are sure:)
          Just remember that many people do not believe as you do & find your ideas do not fit with their own understanding of the divine.

          There is nothing to apologise for mate:)

          • Kristen

            Cheers mate! Blackpool???

            My ancestors were from Dover, and South London where they were rescued out of the Victorian workhouses and bought to NZ, as there was a girl drought here so pretty girls were given free shipping to marry men once they had attained land!!! Innit??Oh, and from Ireland but that was more as longterm household staff for British Military commanders who were unsuccessful in taming the unruly Irish so gave up and took a pension to set up NZ. With a gift of 20 acres of land here from mother England. Goes to show how being poor servants could get you a long way in the 1800’s. My town is an old English Military town set up to guard the coast from the Dutch, we are still very British with old Irish and English pubs!! Gotta love good ole mother England and her ample busom – she was very good to us.

            I’m finished in here, take care old chum.

          • Christopher Toft

            No Essex:) Please think about checking out Lisa’s new post. I’d be interested to hear about your journey with God.

          • Kristen

            Sure. Oh dear re Essex. A TV show The Only Way Is Essex has started here. Never mind! An English friend stays with me annually when he visits his kids here. He tries to explain the different accents to me. I try to remember! Thought he said people in Blackpool say mate. We say it here and in Australia. Hes a Sth London ‘innit’ and sounds like trailer trash (how unPC of me) but insists he isn’t. Here accents are more of a class system rather than geographical!

          • Christopher Toft

            “Oh dear re Essex. A TV show The Only Way Is Essex has started here”
            Yeah not seen it. Massive stereotypes as far as I’m aware:)

  • Debra O’Bryant Haworth

    We as a whole wrote this fairy tale script as ludicrous as we could possibly make it so we could experience our grand forgetting of who we truly are. (which is Devine Beings experiencing our selves as humans) We had to keep this in place and not to be questioned or the jig would be up so to speak. Well the thing is, it’s time in our evolution to awaken and remember who we truly are and to experience our Divinity and our Human beingness as one, on Earth. This is why the old ways and stories are crumbling away. They cannot exist in the Light. A real Heaven on Earth. And God could not be more happy for us all.

  • Kristen

    In context, the Timothy quote Neale selectively used is

    “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith, so do. Now, the end of the command is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith enfeigned. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. Desiring to be teachers of Law, understanding neither what they say, not whereof they affirm. But we know that law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Knowing this, that the Law is not made for righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine”.

    I’m not saying I agree with this, but to single out the bit about sodomy (not gay relationships) is very selective, when the first part is very positive. Why is scripture always quoted out of context or in a selective manner, on both sides, lovers and haters. Hypothetical question, since I guess I know the answer already – it suits the writers purpose to do this! Neale!!!!

    Finished my job in here now. Or for now!