A Voice in the Wilderness
IN TIMES OF SADNESS AND WORRY,
SOME WAYS TO SHIFT THE ENERGY

Not a week goes by these days when people do not ask me what I think about all that is going on in our world right now, and what our best spiritual response might be. Based on the messages in Conversations with God, what would be most useful, they want to know. What would be most helpful right now? What would be most effective?

Today, with all the nuclear sword rattling and bragging about intercontinental first strike or defensive capabilities between countries . . . with all the on-the-ground terrorism and bloodshed and starvation and heartbreaking images of stick-thin women carrying emaciated babies across borders desperately hoping to find safe haven . . . with all the social unrest and upheaval we see at every turn . . . it’s little wonder that sadness and fear seems to be winning the day everywhere.

Yet many people all over the world are still searching for ways to brighten their days and lighten their individual lives — and, too, for something they could offer our world to produce a glimmer of hope amidst the despair, and to bring some light unto the darkness.

This is where you come in. You and me. All of us, together.

There is something we can do. Something to shift our personal, daily lives away from sadness and worry, and something to even help, in a very real way, to uplift the larger reality. What  I am saying to everyone when I am asked about the CWG spiritual response to all that is occurring in our world right now is to explore the messages in Conversations with God-Book 4: Awaken the Species. 

This is a brand new and totally unexpected dialogue, which began on August 2, 2016 and moved to completion, forming an entire book, in five weeks. That book was rushed into print and has just been released — this past Monday, in fact. It has already begun appearing in regular excerpts, now every other day, on my Facebook page, so everyone may access it at no cost. Here is the link to my FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/NealeDonaldWalsch?ref=br_tf

If you wish to have your own personal copy, it is available at Amazon through the following link:

https://www.amazon.com/Conversations-God-Book-Awaken-Species/dp/193790749X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490719225&sr=8-1&keywords=conversations+with+god+book+4

I had no idea this book was coming through. I awoke before dawn on that morning last August with an inner urge to talk with God about our world and its present circumstance. I knew from an old, familiar feeling that it was important for me to move forward with that conversation immediately. I found myself immersed 12 hours a day in this new dialogue, which included a surprising, if not jaw-dropping, revelation amount Highly Evolved Beings from other dimensions, and — most important — an extraordinary personal invitation to every person who reads the text.

Included is a fascinating list of sixteen differences between an awakened species and humans in an unawakened state (offered to inspire us to make specific changes in our own behaviors), as well as ways to tell if we have fully awakened, and five tools for integrating the immensely helpful suggestions of CWG into our daily lives.

Coming at a time of global economic distress, political madness, social upheaval, chest-thumping by so many of our globe’s brazenly partisan and increasingly unyielding leaders, emboldened by their fist-pumping, people-shoving followers — this brand new dialogue declares that this precise moment is actually the Perfect Time for Advancement in the evolutionary journey of our species, and offers the spiritual, philosophical, emotional, and physical steps to move us forward.

The first step, it says, is to self select to be among those who commit to moving forward their own individual and personal evolution by embracing and demonstrating behaviors that serve to awaken the species to who and what human beings really are (Individuations of Divinity), and how that may be made manifest in our collective experience. As I said, the text offers us some solid ideas on ways in which to do that.

I hope that many of you will joyfully read Conversations with God-Book 4: Awaken the Species. 

Lovingly, Neale.

Please Note: The mission of The Global Conversation website is to generate an ongoing sharing of thoughts, ideas, and opinions at this internet location in an interchange that we hope will produce an ongoing and expanding conversation ultimately generating wider benefit for our world. For this reason, links that draw people away from this site will be removed from our Comments Section, a process which may delay publication of your post. If you wish to include in your Comment the point of view of someone other than yourself, please feel free to report those views in full (and even reprint them) here.
Click here to acknowledge and remove this note:
  • Spiritual_Annie

    Mine won’t be available until 4/20! But, I got a$25 gift certificate for Amazon,so I’m reading the other new one, about where medicine and God meet. In addition to trying out Audible for some scientific information. Busy reading time, and looking forward to my own hard copy I can scribble all over. Oh, no! I need highloghters before then…

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

  • I’ve already self selected in the sense that I choose to be a model for others as imperfectly perfect as I can. I made that decision years ago. The thing about being a type of spiritual or more enlightened role model is simply to be myself. Most don’t know I’ve self selected to move toward an enlightened or HEB in the making role. That’s okay too.

    I’m not trying to be a Gandhi, or Martin Luther King etc. Just simply me in my creative & sometime silly humorous nature. I, like all of us all possess unique character traits that are part of the experience we’ve chosen this time around.

    Not trying to fit into a typical spiritual stereotype or be what others think a more advancing person should be or act, just be me and do my best.

    It’s okay to be flawed and not have all the answers. If you can be fine with this, you have released a huge burden off your self.

    As we progress & imbibe a more wise, loving peaceful spirit that we cultivate within, the opportunities or opt-for pouring-unity will present themselves.

    I’m hoping more will becoming more enlightened. Moving from gratitude to simply being in appreciation all the time or most of the time. Moving into a high form of self talk where the habit is always (or mostly) positive & life affirming & rarely if ever negative. Where we can welcome quicker, things we judge as “not good” in our experience & watch in wonder how they will unfold into something good, even unexpected good. Where health, finances & the general burdens of life are not issues or if so, not so dramatically. Where challenges can be welcomed & we can move through them with grace, flow & peace.

  • Stephen mills

    It’s a wonderfull book ,an eyeopener for a species like ourselves wishing to take the next steps in our own evolutionary process individually and collectively .
    There’s so much going on at this time and I guess we are all asking for help and no better help can be found than within these pages .

    I think we are ready now I really do …..lets awaken the species . And the great news is we can work on our own awakening at the same time .

    Neale could you post the sixteen differences between the advanced beings and ourselves for all to see. Then we could have discussions around them . I copied them and printed them out myself at home for me to access easily and frequently .

    Thankyou for sharing this last and unexpected Conversation !!!

  • Mateia Andrei (A true friend)

    Great! God and Neale do more shilling. What about something productive? Yeah, I know it’s hard for God to do such a thing since she couldn’t ever offer me a decent universe to live in.

  • Jethro

    Spirituality means waking up. Most people, even though they don’t
    know it, are asleep. They’re born asleep, they live asleep, they marry
    in their sleep, they breed children in their sleep, they die in their
    sleep without ever waking up. They never understand the loveliness
    and the beauty of this thing that we call human existence. You know,
    all mystics – Catholic, Christian, non-Christian, no matter what their
    theology, no matter what their religion – are unanimous on one thing:
    that all is well, all is well. Though everything is a mess, all is well.
    Strange paradox, to be sure. But, tragically, most people never get to
    see that all is well because they are asleep. They are having a
    nightmare. – (Anthony “Tony” de Mello)

    I will check out book 4 soon. I enjoy what little I’ve read on Facebook.

    • NealeDonaldWalsch

      Book 4 makes an interesting point, Jethro. It says that most of the people who come to this particular dialogue are awake, and not asleep at all — or they wouldn’t have found their way to the book…and to the wonderful invitation that it places before them, on a personal level. So don’t check out Book 4 “soon,” Jethro. Check it out right now.

      • Jethro

        How would I get that autographed?

        • Kirsten

          Groupie!!!!

          • Jethro

            Yeah, I deserve that one, LOL. Fortunately I just enjoy the books and don’t Live my life on every word. No paper wasting fliers, or preaching.

            There is a bit of an appreciation factor, A few years ago when i needed a different way of thinking, I read a couple of Neales books. Several thoughts of Neale’s broke me away from a very confusing family established belief in Christianity. I’m very open to many things these days, not drawn in.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Try reading something that’s entirely backed up by compelling, objective evidence. Might I suggest Sean Carroll’s “The Big Picture.”

          • Jethro

            Answer Above…

      • Jethro

        Thank you, your order has been placed.
        An email confirmation has been sent to you.
        New! Get shipment notifications on your mobile device with the free Amazon app.
        Order Number:
        Conversations With God, Book 4: Awaken the Species will be shipped to Charles by BooKnackrh.
        Estimated delivery: April 10, 2017 – April 20, 2017

  • Patrick Gannon

    Can someone explain to me why gods are unable to speak to all of us at the same time, but instead require us to believe the select individuals who have been carefully chosen as prophets or messengers to inform us of their existence? (And why are almost all of them men?). Why should we believe these individuals when they claim to have such information from immaterial beings, yet possess not a shred of objective evidence for them? Why shouldn’t the default mode be one of disbelief, instead of belief?

    Can someone explain to me why gods always rely on faith (pretending to know things you don’t know) and belief, rather than providing objective, compelling evidence? Is this just too hard for them? If gods are incapable of providing this evidence, why should they have any credibility? Why should we lie to ourselves and tell our brains to believe things our brains know they have no evidence for? How can this be good for us? Why would gods want us to lie to ourselves in this way?

    Can someone also explain to me how something immaterial can affect the particles in our natural world, in the manner in which Neale proposes his particles were manipulated? After all some force would have had to manipulate the particles that form neurons, dendites, axions, electrons, synapses, connectome, nerve cells, electrochemicals, etc. in order to present Neale and other so-called prophets with these visions or whatever you want to call them. We know you can’t have visions and such without brain activity, and there is no source for this activity outside the brain itself, or CERN would have found evidence that there are unknown, outside (magical) forces working on our particles. We know today with full confidence that this does not happen. Particles have fixed properties such as electrical charge and spin states. There are no “magic” states or we would know it. In countless experiments, particles have never been reported to act in any way other than those dictated by the laws of physics.

    I’ve got a shelf full of NDW books and I’m not inclined to send any more money to Neale, though if I find a free transcript of the book I may read it in order to conduct a critical analysis, but I see something about beings from other dimensions visiting us – how specifically, in scientific terms, does this happen? Why can’t Neale’s god explain this so we can take him seriously? Why would gods specifically feed us information in ways that any logical, reasonable, skeptical, critically thinking human would have to question if they are being honest with themselves?

    I guess I fell asleep. I seem to recall CwG1 saying something about being called to the book if you were ready for it. Now I guess I’ve fallen back asleep? Why would that happen? Why does god now call me to science books that have real empirical data, real information, objective and compelling evidence? Consider a catastrophe in which every book we have was destroyed. 1000 years from now would the Bible, the Qur’an, the CwG series, or any other religious book, or other work of fiction, come back in it’s original form? No. Would physics books come back in the exact same form? Yes, of course, because the same experiments would yield the exact same results. The same facts would still be facts. The same core theory would be revived.

    The only way to accept these gods is to turn off logic, reason and critical thinking in our brains. Why would gods require us to do that? What sense does that make? What good is our brain if we’re not going to use it?

    Curious minds want to know…

    • Hi Patrick, I’m not in a space at the moment to get in a real long discussion about your questions. But I’ll add a number of comments.

      Be careful to think science has it all figured out to the point of knowing exactly how the universe runs. I believe science may actually discover God someday & it will be very different than what we believe now. At that point it will validate somethings we believe about God & contradict others. From a CwG perspective it may look like a invisible Universal energy that can be manipulated to whatever degree it can.

      I won’t answer any questions on physics, as it’s beyond me, though I like to read on occasion layman’s explanations on it.

      Consider looking at God as the energy that animated physicality. When one of our cats left his physical body about a month ago. I could tell he was gone. I talked to our vet about it, she agreed that even in a coma you can feel the life in an animal & when they are gone (or left the body) there is a definite difference. In Neale’s newer book before his recent CwG book 4 called (Where God & Medicine Meet) Dr. Brit Cooper talks of her own personal revelation of life after death by working with corpses. Meaning that there is just no life at all in a corpse & where did that energy go?

      For you, it just stops, that’s it baby, it’s done and consciousness stops too. Fair enough, I get that. Get too, that others feel that consciousness simply continues in another form. I’ve mentioned the butterfly, or dragonfly as changing form in the physical to a lighter being. There is also the peanut butterfly but that’s another conversation! 🙂 Water can freeze & go into a vapor. Frozen water is solid, thawed water is fluid & vapor/steam is very etheric. The body may be capable of similar states.

      I’ve mentioned in past discussions about psychic phenomenon. This is the sometimes murky area of subjectivity, brain activity & consciousness. I say murky for some not others who experience things beyond the brains ordinary boundaries. Those who’s dreams come true in the future, me and my cat as I’ve discussed before. You can absolutely call these tricks of the brain or whatever. But it’s very different when you actually experience them. The same with out of body experiences.

      You could also look at our larger self as the soul or God. That God & our soul are the same. From a CwG standpoint this is true, Neale caveats that the difference is only in portion/size. In that sense you or we & God are the same. God is simply a name for our larger self. Not another being outside of us.

      HEB’s may be from other dimensions. Author Lisette Larkins will tell you she’s met them in physical forms (on very rare occasions) & they are physical beings, just extremely enlightened. Neale has never met an HEB last I asked at a September retreat 2016.

      My guess Patrick, is that there will not be a satisfying answer to your many inquires. From me, Neale or others. It’s the same concept of me shaking my head at a Christian fundamentalists & you at the CwG material.

      Where to go from here? Well, you have a big interest it seems in spiritual consciousness. Whether that goes on after the body dies is a debatable question that will be unsatisfying to you at this point & I see no reason to continue that path with you, do you?

      However, cultivating the best consciousness & beingness while we are here seems to interest you a great deal & that, may be where we meet.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Science, unlike religion, NEVER claims to have figured it all out. A good scientist will never claim that something is “proven,” so of course science understands that it hasn’t figured out everything – but it has figured out some things, and it has figured it out to such an extent that we can very safely live our lives based on the understanding that these things are true. Gravity is true. Evolution is true. Germ theory is true. Relativity so far is true (they keep testing) and so on. The core theory – the thing that explains the laws of physics in our natural world is true, and we can depend on it because there has never been a case in which it was shown to be otherwise. Provide a clear example of a break from the laws of physics in the actions of a particle, and not only will you win a Nobel Prize, but you will completely overturn the laws of physics and send us back to the drawing board. Every experiment at CERN, for example, is an attempt to prove the core theory wrong, and every attempt ends up confirming it.

        If you have an open mind, and a layman’s understanding, then I would strongly suggest Sean Carroll’s “The Big Picture.” It’s a very readable book (I really like the audible version, narrated by the author, but I had to buy the hardcopy too, because there is so much good information to reference and it’s hard to look up things quickly on an audio file.)

        “Consider looking at God as the energy that animated physicality.” That is exactly what physicists have been doing for a very long time, and they have found absolutely no evidence that anything outside our natural world ever has or ever will affect our particles. If our particles can’t be affected, then there is no place for psychic healing, ESP, and so forth. There is no place for souls. When your cat died, it’s soul didn’t fly away, the “process of life” faded away. The process slowed and ground to a halt – that’s what you observed.

        Where does the energy go? Right back to the universe where it came from – as the particles degrade, they give off their energy or transfer it to a different form – all very well understood, basic physics. Energy is never lost – that’s one of the problems with PSI; it creates a problem for conservation of energy laws.

        Your description of water is actually spot on for why we know consciousness does not continue. Water, like other things can change states, but all the particles that it is comprised of are accounted for. It’s called a “phase shift.” Where are the particles to account for consciousness, other than in the brain?

        You ask me to consider that god and souls are the same – but there are no gods and no souls. There is absolutely no objective evidence for either or we wouldn’t be discussing it here. It would be in textbooks and taught to children. We’ve failed miserably in teaching children about science. It was what gave us our big advantage, and now we blow it off in favor of fairy tales. We are a mentally ill society, fraught with cognitive dissonance that makes us anxious and angry and hostile. We hate that all that evidence is out there disproving our most firmly held beliefs, so we deny it and in so doing create cognitive conflicts that make our lives more difficult than they have to be.

        If Neale wants to propose HEBs who come from another dimension, he has to provide some sort of scientific explanation for how this can come to pass, or he is just spewing nonsense. He has to explain how his immaterial god whispers in his brain, activating neurons and firing synapses, when there is absolutely no evidence that particles can be or ever have been affected in this way. I’m afraid that in the absence of such evidence the default position has to be that, Neale is delusional or a charlatan. The burden of proof for such outrageous claims lies on him. If there’s a physics section in his book that explains how this happens, let me know.

        It actually isn’t a debatable question what happens to consciousness. It emerges from the layers below it just like everything else in our natural world, and when the process that supports it stop, so does consciousness. Life and consciousness are processes. The burden of proof lies on those who would deny this since they are the ones proposing it; and many have tried. The Noetic Institute, and until recently, the Monroe Institute are examples of organizations that are trying to prove this – but their results are always “in the noise.” There is never any clear unambiguous evidence, and they’ve been at it for decades. Meanwhile science comes up with new discoveries on a weekly basis that lead us to the conclusion that the core theory is correct. We just learned that a known force (magnetism) can be used to improve memory in the brain. Known forces working on known particles, producing observable, measurable effects.

        “However, cultivating the best consciousness & beingness while we are here seems to interest you a great deal & that, may be where we meet.” Absolutely! I think our brains may be capable of much more than we know and may indeed explain how bodies can sometimes spontaneously heal themselves (the body has neurons too).

        • “Where does the energy go? Right back to the universe where it came from
          – as the particles degrade, they give off their energy or transfer it
          to a different form – all very well understood, basic physics.”

          Yes transfer of energy would be a good term or explanation for consciousness returning in another form. Reincarnation.

          As I may have said in the past. Science has yet to figure it all out & in the future may find explanations for metaphysics.

          Neale has said more than once that he could be all wrong about this & if so, in the mean time if someone finds a better way to live he is willing to listen.

          So for me that debate is over on a purely intellectual basis. When you experience psychic experiences personally that has an effect on oneself. You can explain it away & use current scientific analysis, but in time that may all change. Gravity is obvious, but can we manipulate it change it? The answer maybe we can or other ET’s may have already. Or maybe we have & the government is keeping it a secret.

          As for physics, I won’t debate that, I’m not knowledgeable enough about it.

          The amount of stories of individuals that have seen or talked with those who passed on is enough to convince me that it exists & that science has yet to catch uP.

          Are there fakes in this department? Of course. Have people had premonitions of the future that saved them by heeding them? It happens daily. I even hear it on the local news. Intuition is one of those murky areas I’m sure science has difficulty with it but everyone experiences it.

          Neale does not have it all figured out & neither does science. If in your mind we are delusional for believing that which science has yet to prove, then I/we are delusional.

          But I/we are opened minded enough to accept the possibility that we could be wrong & that’s okay with me. In the mean time, I’m having a lot of fun with it & it seems to be working & playing in my life at this time.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Where is your evidence for reincarnation? They’ve been studying it for years, and there is no compelling evidence for it. We don’t have memories of past lives of course, so the spiritual gurus tell us we volunteered to have the slate wiped clean first. That’s a very convenient answer, but it’s a cop out. You first have to explain how consciousness can survive the death of the brain, before you can even start to talk about reincarnation. All the evidence points to consciousness emerging from the brain. Reincarnation is an outrageous claim and as such must be supported by those who make it. Where’s the beef, as the old lady used to say in the Burger King commercial?

            Aside from that, I mostly agree with your post. I think we need to continue to study these phenomena until we get to the point where we can put it to rest. Science never proves anything. It is always open to new evidence. The problem is that people like Neale have NO evidence. If they did, they would present it. What they have is an interesting way to make a living taking advantage of the ignorance of their fellow man – just like other religionists. If you understood the core theory, it’s unlikely you would ever buy another one of his books. Why take the word of a man who has no training, education, or background in science, (that I know of) who bases everything he says on belief, over people who have studied and experimented, and researched and observed and predicted, etc. and who are clearly much smarter than you and me? If you’re asking for directions to the Pizza Parlor, do you ask the two year old with a lollipop, or the policeman who patrols the neighborhood?

            Yeah, Neale says he could be wrong about all this – but it’s just a way to deflect criticism. He doesn’t actually look in detail at why he is almost certainly wrong about it. He’s never demonstrated any knowledge of the core theory that explains our natural world. At least he hasn’t posted quantum-woo in a while. I guess he learned from Deepak…

          • “Where does the energy go? Right back to the universe where it came from – as the particles degrade, they give off their energy or transfer it to a different form – all very well understood, basic physics.”

            Your quote here seems to be an indication for reincarnation. The transfer of energy being the key here. That’s why I brought it uP.

            I don’t have a lot of interest in debating reincarnation at this point. Ah, we forget all that when we come back, oh how convenient is that you said. I give you that for sure & I understand your reasoning on it. Good point to make, I like it, but certainly not the only one that can be made.

            Our culture as a whole does not accept reincarnation as they do in other eastern countries. The Dali Lama is chosen by how accurate he can pick out items from his former life.

            “Science never proves anything. It is always open to new evidence. The problem is that people like Neale have NO evidence. If they did, they would present it.”

            Well he has evidence in certain respects like his 2 OOB out of body experiences. But before you explain that away, remember we have intuitions, premonitions & a lot of people who experience the presence of the loved ones who passed. Even dreams of future events that happen. As I’ve said before, we don’t have the technology to accurately gauge psychic phenomena. It may happen at some point, just not at present. Most people experience intuition, but it can’t be measured.

            Yes James Randi (to go back to an earlier post) has yet to pay out his million dollar bet to any consistent measurable psychic phenomena. God bless him for exposing the frauds. I’ve had psychic readings & was impressed with what they said & others that I would just roll my eyes. So as far as proving this, you can’t. It’s a very personal subjective state. I would be interested to read about several people having a certain vision or psychic hit together. But from my current experience it’s pretty singular to the individual.

            I remember a palm reader outside a store front. I confronted him by explaining how he worked his craft. To my surprise, he agreed & I enjoyed his candor and honesty.

            I mentioned to Neale in the past that much of CwG can’t be proven & is speculative. He agreed. Yet, that does not mean the theory can’t be proven at some point. So I take what works & plays for me & use that. Neale’s admission to he could be all wrong about this is also a bit of a wink when he says that if you can find a better way to live, he’d love to hear it.

            I think our common ground here Patrick is the improvement of our own consciousness & how that can influence others & the world in any way positive affirmative healthy we can.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Your quote here seems to be an indication for reincarnation. The transfer of energy being the key here.”

            How so? This is a law of physics problem. You are asserting that somehow the particles in our brains and bodies, go into the ground or atmosphere (if cremated) and then reform into a new human being similarly comprised of particles. That’s a scientific claim. Explain how this happens, please.

            OoBs can be manually induced. Studies have been performed in which objects were specifically placed such that the subject could only see the object if they could rise above their bodies as they claim to do. Alas, these objects are never seen. This is a characteristic of the brain. Learning how to make it happen, or inducing it intentionally with stimulation may actually have beneficial results for people – but it’s not real. We DO have the technology to gauge psychic phenomena. That’s the problem. There is no support for it. If you could psychically heal someone, we could see that occur in the particles of the tissue that make up humans. If such forces that could manipulate particles in order to heal tissue existed, we would know it by now. That’s the problem for psychic phenomenon, there simply isn’t any mechanism left by which to explain them. CERN and similar experimental data has ruled it out.

            “I mentioned to Neale in the past that much of CwG can’t be proven & is speculative. He agreed. Yet, that does not mean the theory can’t be proven at some point.” Ummm this terminology is wrong. A “theory” requires some basis in fact. Neale has a “hypothesis.” In no way, is his invention of his god a “theory.”

            Once again, I will agree that studying our consciousness is the way to go. Our brains are turning out to be far more powerful machines than we thought – but no gods are required to gain these benefits.

          • Thanks Patrick. So are you saying they have technology to read intuition & intuitive hits? I’ve not seen technology that measures dream premonitions that people have that later come true?

            When people have their loved ones that have passed tell them information (in dreams or visions) like where some item is or where they had some object that no one knew about & then they verify it, I don’t think we have instruments (yet) that can measure or detect that kind of phenomena.

            My idea of transfer of energy is that a non or less material part of us is transferred to another state of which currently can’t be measured or recognized.

            Didn’t Einstein and others have theories that could not be proved until later years?

          • Patrick Gannon

            They have the technology to see brain waves. There are no thoughts, no intuitions, no premonitions, no considerations, no remonstrations – nothing – without brain waves that confirm the existence of thoughts. They can put in sensors and see which sections of the brain are involved when we are dreaming or thinking or imagining, or making decisions, or having OoBs, etc. The brain is ALWAYS involved, and if it is damaged, or killed, those thoughts are affected or ended. An entire personality can change due to damage to a brain; that blows away the idea that a personal self-aware consciousness is something outside ourselves.

            What you are referring to with regard to loved ones giving information is forgotten (or manufactured) memories. You’re proposing a scientific hypothesis based on wishful thinking. Conservation of energy dictates that anything material that is part of us will obey those rules, and always has; no exceptions ever noted. If energy is transferred from here to there, it can be measured. As I’ve mentioned several times, quantum mechanics gives us the probability that there are unknown forces acting on our particles a probability as close to zero as you can get without saying zero.

            Yes Einstein and others have had theories that could not be proven until later years, but what is your theory? Actually it would have to be a hypothesis, because it wouldn’t attain the status of theory till there was some minimal amount of evidence and argument to support it – and there is none. Indeed all the evidence we have attained, tells us the exact opposite. It’s like the young earth folks insisting the world was 6000 years old, when every single piece of evidence we collect says otherwise. Also, Einstein was proven to be wrong in a couple things. Google, “five things Einstein got totally wrong.”

            Let’s forego the wishful thinking, the lying to ourselves, and focus on what we can do with what we’ve got. The human brain is a pretty amazing organ, and we’re learning that it may have more capabilities than we realized. These may relate to things previously considered spiritual or religious or New Age woo, but they are of this natural world, and that doesn’t make them any less useful or amazing.

          • Well, we may well create & invent technology that can measure intuitions & eventually accurate visualizations of our dreams including sound. Think the movie “Brain Storm 1983. Here they recording experiences not dreams, but cool concept!

            I believe we can even create technology that bridges the gap not only to the afterlife but other dimensions as well. Call it all manufactured wishful thinking. Wishful thinking created a lot of improbable ideas.

            As far as I can see, we are at the end of the line in this respect. I feel that technology can or may eventually prove theories or hypotheses that were first intuited by the mystics, thinkers & tinkerers.

            Never the less, improving our spiritual, psychological emotional state is the goal we can agree upon. That said, I will only be repeating, as will you things we already talked about.

            How one gets to a more enlightened state be it magical wishful thinking by new age tin foil wearing hippies or by psychological or other means, makes no never mind to me.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Come on Marko! Brain Storm? I loved the movie, but it’s science fiction and we’ve learned so much since 1983. Geez, that’s when the first IBM PC was first introduced. Back then there was still a chance that consciousness might live outside ourselves, but no more. There are particle accelerators all over the world – not just the big one at CERN and every single one of them tells us that the particles in our natural world are not affected by any magical forces; and that if they were, we would know it.

            The virtual reality ideas in Brain Storm have come to fruition, but the idea of consciousness living outside the brain has been debunked. The burden of proof is on those who would suggest otherwise. There’s a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever can demonstrate that these magical forces exist.

          • Time will tell.

    • Jethro

      When a person is waking up daily full of hate and anger, unsatisfied with the life they have made. Full of anger because it seems something or someone or everyone has stopped them having the life they wish they had. When someone is getting out of bed daily and looking forward to their welfare check or food assistance arriving because they can’t seem to find a decent job, or make a good decision that might let them have a little success in life. What do we do for people who suffer mental illnesses that are treatable with medications but can’t afford them? What about the children who grew up in homes being mentally bashed by people they love to the point that as adults they feel worthless and incapable of doing anything right, after all they never became a doctor or a lawyer or the president.

      What book of scientific facts could you give them to change the way they think about themselves? Several titles would be welcome.

      Carl Ransom Rogers (January 8, 1902 – February 4, 1987) was an American psychologist and among the founders of the humanistic approach (or client-centered approach) to psychology. Rogers is widely considered to be one of the founding fathers of psychotherapy research and was honored for his pioneering research with the Award for Distinguished Scientific Contributions by the American Psychological Association (APA) in 1956. The person-centered approach, his own unique approach to understanding personality and human relationships, found wide application in various domains such as psychotherapy and counseling (client-centered therapy), education (student-centered learning), organizations, and other group settings. For his professional work he was bestowed the Award for Distinguished Professional Contributions to Psychology by the APA in 1972. In a study by Haggbloom et al. (2002) using six criteria such as citations and recognition, Rogers was found to be the sixth most eminent psychologist of the 20th century and second, among clinicians, only to Sigmund Freud. Rogers was born on January 8, 1902, in Oak Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. His father, Walter A. Rogers, was a civil engineer and his mother, Julia M. Cushing, was a homemaker and devout Pentecostal Christian. Carl was the fourth of their six children.[4] Rogers was intelligent and could read well before kindergarten. Following an education in a strict religious and ethical environment as an altar boy at the vicarage of Jimpley, he became a rather isolated, independent and disciplined person, and acquired a knowledge and an appreciation for the scientific method in a practical world. His first career choice was agriculture, at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, where he was a part of the fraternity of Alpha Kappa Lambda, followed by history and then religion. At age 20, following his 1922 trip to Peking, China, for an international Christian conference, he started to doubt his religious convictions. To help him clarify his career choice, he attended a seminar entitled Why am I entering the Ministry?, after which he decided to change his career. In 1924, he graduated from University of Wisconsin and enrolled at Union Theological Seminary. He later became an atheist. – Wikipedia.

      An atheist Patrick. Do you see his journey to that point? It was a journey deeper into his religious beliefs that ultimately removed him. sound familiar? Carl Rogers is one of my hero’s. He’s most popular for finding out that if you use kindness to treat mental issues, or anything, you get better results. I believe that he came to his personal values through the church, then removed the invisible being in the sky, while retaining those values.

      What personal values is Sean Carroll teaching? How am I going to benefit from watching a science program? Dropping a belief in the Holy Bible? Been there done that, as it was taught to me by my family anyway. Every book on earth that has been written is another persons opinion. Sean, Peter, Paul, Mathew, Neale. If you got sucked into controlling your life based on those books, I’m sorry. I’m not that gullible. I believe there is good information in other peoples thoughts and opinions, I have enjoyed some of the things you have written and everyone else. There is something to think about in every word, but I’m not going to excuse something because I don’t like the description of their source.

      The human mind is a strange product. Anything that comes from it can be questioned. Of all the scientific studies being done in our universe, anything pertaining to what causes thought is Theory and theory is a “belief” without facts. When Einsteins brain was stolen and studied, it was a brain. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. The thoughts coming from that brain were so phenomenal that people believed it must have had recognizable physical differences, but it was just a brain. I’m going to continue looking at that and the related. If you wish to continue to study those things that have facts to conclude that some things have no obtainable facts then I wish you well and will continue to read with interest. You asked several times why people “Believe” something. I would like to know too. I understand the electrical impulses of the synapse and the chemical transfers and sat through the lectures, I once could tell you the different parts of the brain and how its constructed, how the information is processed, where its stored… But what creates the beliefs? Experiences?

      • Patrick Gannon

        Sean Carroll addresses those issues in quite some detail, actually. He addresses consciousness and free will and asks what we are going to do with the three billion heartbeats we have. He talks about what is and what ought to be, rules and consequences, constructing goodness, existential therapy and so on. The book is called “The Big Picture.” I have focused on a few choice parts pertinent to the discussion here, but that barely scratches the surface. You jump to buy a book of beliefs from a guru selling beliefs, but shy away from a book about facts from a renowned and accomplished physicist. What sense does that make? Explain that please. It sure sounds like you’re searching for a spiritual happy drug, a cop out, a security blanket. Man up, dude.
        .
        How we benefit is by understanding the truth about our natural world, so that we can work to solve its problems, rather than hide behind pseudo-nonsense like panpsychism and Essential Essences and Universal Energies (with caps of course), and so on. Knowing that this is all we get is not going to set well with everyone, including those who have figured it out – but it is truth, and doesn’t the truth matter? Sean Carroll is not pleased that his existence will end when he dies. He talks about how he thinks he could stay entertained for 100,000 years or so, but it is what it is, and the truth matters.

        “Of all the scientific studies being done in our universe, anything pertaining to what causes thought is Theory and theory is a “belief” without facts.” That is complete and utter garbage, Jethro. That can’t go unchallenged. A theory is backed up by evidence or rational argument. Gravity is not a belief, germs are not a belief, oxygen theory of combustion is not a belief, plate tectonics is not a belief, heliocentrism is not a belief. I can go on if you’d like. You and I would not be exchanging these messages if information theory was just a belief. “A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world.” Don’t tell me a theory is just a belief. That’s something a fundagelical would say. I’m going to assume you misspoke, because you’re a lot smarter than that.

        Yes we are still working on how thought (the hard question of consciousness) works, and there are theories, such as the attention schema theory I mentioned in another post. These are not beliefs, they are theories backed up by experiments and observations, and predictions, and so forth – unlike anything Neale has to say about gods or HEBs and so forth. Neale’s stuff is not theory. Neal’s stuff is based on pure belief, and requires pure faith. His stuff demands that you pretend to know things you don’t know. That cannot be good for us. Nothing in Carroll’s book, except some of his personal opinions is based on belief. Neale can’t begin to say that.

        What creates beliefs is indeed experiences, and indoctrination. The old saying goes – when synapses fire, the brain is wired, and that seems to be very true. You and I grew up believing in religious garbage because they made our synapses fire again and again and again. I once questioned Neale here about his books because he says the same thing over and over and over again in slightly different ways, choosing new words to capitalize with each new iteration. I couldn’t see the sense in buying another book that said the same thing the last five books said, only in a slightly different way. He responded and said that it’s all about repetition. He was a Catholic. He understands the power of indoctrination. He is trying to fire our synapses. He is trying to wire brains. He is creating unfounded beliefs. He is creating a religion. I’m trying to fire other synapses that ask people to question those beliefs because they have nothing tangible to back them up, and i hate to see progress go backwards.

        By the way, Einstein’s brain does seem to be a bit different. It’s hard to tell because it was carved up into pieces before it was studied. Google “Forbes What Made Einstein’s Brain Different From Everyone Else’s?” The truth is that we don’t know, but his intelligence is far more likely to come from physical conditions than from magic powers. It stands to reason that some people are going to have some capabilities greater than the norm. I will never be Magic Johnson and play in the NBA. And Einstein wasn’t always right. He made mistakes. He was wrong about some things. There was no god or soul force making him intelligent. It’s a product of genetics, upbringing, experiences, memory, education, and random chance. What bothers me is to think of all the brains as good as his that were lost to us because they were indoctrinated with bogus beliefs that prevented them from seeking truth.

        It is not necessary to have religious beliefs in order to be kind, gentle, caring, empathetic and understanding. Many atheists and agnostics have those qualities. (Not necessarily me – grin). How many atheists and agnostics are running around out there trying to shut down Planned Parenthood or dictate what bathrooms people can use, or denying rights to LGBTs, or attacking people of other religions? The people who do that come almost entirely from the ranks of believers. No gods or religious training is required to be a decent human being – in fact, the opposite seems to be true. There are more religious people as a percentage of the population in prison than atheists, according to statistics you can find online. In your own example it was after he became an atheist that Carl Rogers seems to have become the person you admire. He had to cast off the chains first. He had to seek truth.

        I get it that CwG helped you replace one set of horrid beliefs for another that is certainly much kinder and more feminine. I did the same thing – but it was just that – exchanging one set of magical beliefs for another. I think if we can’t be honest with ourselves, if we have to lie to ourselves and tell our brains to believe things they don’t know, then we can never be truly happy, only fake-happy, on spiritual happy-drugs where we hide from our pain instead of facing it. Truth is seldom easy. We all want the easy way. Neale’s way is the easy way, but it almost certainly isn’t the true way – there’s no evidence that it is the true way. Doesn’t truth matter?

        • Jethro

          I didn’t shy away from anything, I know a about what to expect from Neale’s book, I read three of four of Neale’s Books and paid for one. I enjoyed them, I will pay for the last one and if he would autograph it i’d appreciate it, regardless of anyone else’s beliefs. Are you suggesting a good book for me to read or letting Neale know yet again how you feel about his Ideas through my post? I didn’t jump to buy anything, I’ve been thinking about it for some time. Then I read something about interdimensional beings and thought, no thanks. I almost fell into “The trap”. I knew some people wouldn’t buy the books because it said “God” in the title, Then there are others who would buy them because the word “God” was in the title. I almost didn’t give #4 a look because it had “interdimensional beings” in the advertising. If I enjoy Neale’s thoughts, why do I care where he says the information came from. I said once that the biggest mistake, and the smartest thing he ever did was put God in it. No god this time. So I’m gonna Man up and check it out. I can take it.

          You said, I jump to buy a book of beliefs from a guru selling beliefs, but shy away from a book about facts from a renowned and accomplished physicist. What sense does that make? Explain that please. Because I want to, It’s just that simple. We are having a conversation on a blog set up by Neale Donald Walsch, the author of the book in question, not Sean Carroll. Give it a minute to sink in. Give me a link to Sean Carrols blog please, I’ll happily check it out. As I read, Neale’s book I’m gonna be thinking, Hey, that makes some sense, or I may be thinking wow, what a nut job. That’s for me to believe for myself. If it ever hits a free PDF file and you read it, it will be the same for you. Except, your going into it expecting a load of crap. I never needed to know that Jesus may have never existed, or the exodus, or any of the other things you have mentioned, I dismissed a lot of the bible before you mentioned it. There is just some things that don’t make sense, and it really isn’t what is written in the bible as much as how it was explained. Neale put it in a way that I can agree with a little better. I also like the way he advertises changing the world for the better. Nothing wrong with that.

          You say it sure sounds like I’m searching for a spiritual happy drug, a cop out, a security blanket.” There you go with the drug thing again, I let go of the security blanket when I decided not to spend my life drunk every day. It sounds a bit like your trying to shame me with “your” beliefs. God was never my security blanket but my confusion. The people I meet daily are the facts I spend my day with, understanding them is my goal. That voice that tells you there is no God… That’s someones idea of God. Really! God has been telling you there’s no God. Figure that one out and you will understand CWG a little better. That’s my idea anyway. What’s wrong with reminding people that if they’re not happy doing what they do for a living, there making a dying? People are going to work everyday not really wanting to do what they are going out to do, they took a job for the money, not doing what they wish they could do. I do exactly what I want to do. It’s made a big difference. What’s wrong with reminding people that if people are living a satisfying life the ten commandments become the ten commitments? We can decide for ourselves that something is wrong with the ten commandments but they exist as a real list of laws to some people. You and I can set here and talk about all of those things that are wrong with statements in the Bible without anger or disappointing each other, but what about all the people who live or believe they are living “the word of God”? Is it better to say to them, “your are all wrong”, or write a book in which your talking to God and God is saying, “You got me all wrong!”. What part of that can I communicate to people when they wish to discuss Ideas about God as they understand God. You Might tell customers that your working for, that your agnostic or atheist, I try to give a better kinder idea. I’m not going to tell them their God does not exist, because per their thoughts, God exists! It’s not up to me.

          You want me to check out Sean Carroll’s book. That’s OK with me. I’m actually interested after some description, but you hit me with, “Try reading something that’s entirely backed up by compelling, objective evidence.” If I were highly concerned with compelling, objective evidence, I wouldn’t be reading a book possibly based in spirituality, Right? Sell me on the book. tell me about the book. When was it written? Is it more than the creation of the universe? You mentioned 3 billion heartbeats, why? I watched Sean Carrolls shows back in the 70’s on channel 13, back when 13 channels were all we had, or was it 12… now his shows are available on YouTube. I’ve been looking at the scientific side of things for years. Sean Carroll has decided that he will not continue to exist after he does not exist the way he exists now, some others believe they will exist after they do not exist as they are. So what? It’s all just beliefs until it happens to us. Even then, we may never know. Unless you believe now something is different. What reason do I have to be concerned now? I’m still alive as we understand life, Right? Maybe I’m just a spot of mold on this big sphere we call earth helping to destroy it while believing that it’s all against my will. Mold collects in places where it’s moist, we collect in places on earth were there is water… what’s the difference?

          “A theory is backed up by evidence or rational argument.” Rational Argument? Theology; the study of the nature of God and religious belief. Theory; a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
          So I’m guessing it depends on ones definition of rational? If theory were fact it instantly becomes fact and is no longer theory. We are discussing facts, right? We know gravity by it’s name. We know theory of combustion by it’s name. We know plate tectonics by it’s name. heliocentrism?, nobody understands that by name but understands the earth revolves around the sun. Fact-“SUPPORTED” theories? Are what? Fact? You speak very strongly of facts and are now defending theories that “You” believe. A theory, is a theory, is a theory. Or is it Rational Argument of possible fact? Still not entirely fact.

          “I’m trying to fire other synapses that ask people to question those beliefs because they have nothing tangible to back them up, and i hate to see progress go backwards.”… Ok, your wanting facts about God and the ideas that keep God around. I have had thousands of conversations with people who have an idea about who God is, what God does, why God exists, what God said… God exists in the minds of billions of people by whatever name. If that many people BELIEVE there is a God, then there IS a God. It doesn’t matter how much tangible proof of an actual God there is, the believers are very tangible and will revolt when you tell them God is fake. Go to India, go into a mosque during prayer time and tell them all that their God is fake or “Hey! your all searching for a spiritual happy drug, a cop out, a security blanket.!!!” Give it up! your a crowd of fools!! Here, read a copy of Sean Carroll’s “The big picture”!! Your all idiots!!!” You will face the wrath of God, AKA an angry mob.

          Einstein’s brain was a brain. It could have fired a little different, but he was not a super human. By today’s standards we are to study hard all of our childhood to be someone who makes a lot of money, Einstein followed a passion. When we follow our passion, we are rich with satisfaction. We also give ourselves a chance to make better what we are passionate about. Raise your kids to be a doctor when they wanted to be a cobbler and you get malpractice suites. Do it enough and insurance prices go up. The only difference between a plumber and a doctor is, one of them washes his/her hands before going pee. We are all just humans doing human things with or without an idea of God. You see people getting sucked into Neale’s idea of God, I see people getting a different Idea of a violent God.

          “it was after he became an atheist that Carl Rogers seems to have become the person you admire. He had to cast off the chains first. He had to seek truth.” That’s entirely possible. I’d like to think he was the person I admire even before that, It wasn’t removing God that made him who he was, Its who he was that removed a need for a belief in God. You are correct, people do not need to believe in God to be good people, some people realize what makes life better without a set of written rules that are 2000 years old and I couldn’t care more or less. Good people are good people and I don’t care what made them that way I simply respond to them by being the best I can be. I mean, I have no idea what a person believes when I meet them, but if they are being kind, I return that.

          “I get it that CwG helped you replace one set of horrid beliefs for another that is certainly much kinder and more feminine. I did the same thing”…Whats wrong with studying the psychological effects of the belief of God? What’s wrong with using what Neale is saying to conduct my own little study on human beliefs? Why do you assume that I wish to strengthen my belief in something I’m not actually sure exists? Neale has moved from God to interdimensional beings, what is the truth exactly. Is Neale trying to bring about a positive change or a different God? or now, a belief in interdimensional beings?

          • Patrick Gannon

            I don’t have time for an extended response, but I don’t think you have the right Sean Carroll. He was born in 1966, so he wasn’t doing TV shows in the 70s. He’s a cosmologist and physics professor specializing in dark energy and general relativity. He is a research professor in the Department of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. His book, “The Big Picture” was published last year.

            Sorry I annoyed you so much. It was my perspective that you were more inclined to read a typical CwG book that requires little intellectual exercise, versus putting just a tiny bit more brain sweat into actually learning something based on facts. Carroll’s book provides an overview of the main branches of science in layman’s terms, and ties all those branches together to paint a “big picture” of our natural world that is based on things that have evidence.

            No need to continue insulting me by specifically accusing me of believing things that have facts backing them up. You know I don’t use that word, so you are intentionally trying to paint me into a corner that I have no intention of going into. I much prefer to “think that” these theories are valid because they are backed up by overwhelming evidence, and because they have not been proven wrong. I don’t “believe” in the theory of gravitation, I “think that” it is true because of the available evidence. I need not “believe” in the theory of gravitation, while one can only “believe” in gods. There is no evidence to “think that” they might be real. When evidence surfaces that a theory is wrong, it is modified or discarded. I’m willing to bet that nothing Neale has to say about interdimensional HEBs, in his new book is backed by the slightest bit of objective, compelling evidence. Everything Sean Carroll says in his book is backed up by compelling evidence.

            I just started a new book that seems to be along the same lines as Carroll’s by an equally esteemed scientist, Lawrence Krauss called “The Greatest Story Ever Tod – So Far.” Scientists are getting better at putting what they have learned about how our natural world really does operate into language that can be followed and understood by the layman. I’ll also make note that most people stop learning after they get out of school. They figure they know all there is to know, and they just stop. This is a terrible shame because at our age, it turns out that it’s a whole lot easier to learn, and the more you do the easier it gets. You are pretty unlikely to “learn” anything you didn’t know before from a NDW book and I can absolutely guarantee that you will “learn” many things from either of these or similar authors who write about things that are based on real evidence.

            One final thought. You said, “You see people getting sucked into Neale’s idea of God, I see people getting a different Idea of a violent God.”

            How about the idea that there is no god? Why is that probability ruled out?

          • Jethro

            My apologies Patrick, I was thinking of someone else. The plot thickens!! So it would happen I’ve never looked this guy up. I’ll do some better looking. Sean’ book really does sound pretty good. You truly have me interested.

            I am not annoyed by your book suggestion as much as your insinuation of my reasons for reading something from Neale. I’m not interested in God. I accept religions and/or spirituality as another form of psychology. Now I’m not the best of communicators here but I’ll try again to explain. Neale never explains Heaven but to say when we die we join the “collective energy”, claims no hell, Everything is converted to energy. He describes God only as a separation of his thoughts and thoughts of others. It’s the idea that there is a God that becomes God as I understand it through Neale. I’m convinced that Neale isn’t talking about God at all, not as we were raised to know God. God gets converted into Us and all living things. No invisible being in the sky. The reason people assume Neale is describing the religious God is because that’s what they know and he does say the word God. The word God is the attractant. Now it’s been a while since I’ve read the books so I could be remembering incorrectly. Neale is using a popular description of God to try and change the negative thoughts people have towards other people based on their understanding of God, without being so insulting as to tell people that their god does not exist. God exists in the thoughts of people, by the way, that’s a proven fact. Neale is proposing a different version of those thoughts. I see the books as ingenious! He even states early in the books, if you change the word God to life, or was it love, it still works.

            We can prove scientific facts all day long, but until you address the spiritual side of humanity, you won’t see much of a change, even if you had your wish to just remove a God that doesn’t exist. Religion and spirituality will always be a part of humanity. They would just invent a new word to describe it all. God is violent because a violent people created the thought of God. A ruling King in the sky who is separate from earth and willing to destroy it all. I have yet to see any animal other than humans congregate into a church to socialize. It would happen that other animals can respect each others thoughts without collecting into like minded buildings. They separate each other into food groups, but they socialize in peace until hungry.

            As I look at the “correct” Sean Carroll, I believe I was thinking of Carl something, I’ll check out The Greatest Story Ever Tod – So Far.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’ve been following Neale a long time and his explanation or description of his god changes to meet the requirements of the article or post of the day. He will say in one breath that god is an energy or something like that, and in the next breath refer to his god as a deity – and deities are personal gods like Yahweh, Zeus and Poseidon. A god that talks to you is a personal god; an anthropomorphized god. Of course, his method of capitalizing words to give them a different meaning from that which the dictionary says, gives him an “out” to bob and weave in order to play the field and have it his way.

            He used to do a lot of “We are all ONE,” and “God is all that IS” (which just makes “god” a synonym for the word “everything”), but now he’s into Essential Essence and other capitalized words intended to confuse and distract.

            If you recall from CwG1, he believes Moses, for example, was a real person, thus implying that the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan actually happened – and these have both been debunked. That debunking is causing tremendous cognitive dissonance in fundagelicals right now. That was probably my first problem… when I read that he believed in Moses, I knew god wasn’t “talking” to him, or if so, god wasn’t correcting him – just as Jesus did not correct Paul in his visions. Jesus did not tell Paul that there was no “one man” Adam, and he didn’t tell him about evolution, and he didn’t tell him that the end of the world was not imminent. The credibility of both Paul and Jesus is the same as that of Neale and his god. There’s no credibility. If Moses or Jesus or Neale or Mohammed or any other prophet or messenger offered a piece of technology that surpassed that of the time they lived in, that would be real evidence of a superior being. Instead Jesus tells his followers they don’t have to wash their hands before eating. A simple lesson about germs in the NT would have saved millions from horrible deaths, but Jesus, if he existed, was as ignorant as Neale and his god is.

            He believes Jesus was able to overturn the laws of physics – but that’s such an outrageous claim, made (as with all prophets and messengers) without a shred of objective evidence. I haven’t read the new book, but I guess he had a couple of OoBs (which are scientifically explained), and his god told him about HEBs? It’s all just too fantastic, without evidence. It strikes me as a scoundrel seeking to part fools from their money. What bothers me most is the inability of people to question obvious nonsense, and to simply accept that if some guy who claims to have spoken with god says it is true, it must be. What is wrong with people that they would do this? I can only point to a) fear, and b) lack of a good education.

            You suggest that we won’t change without spirituality. I’m not so convinced of that – but it depends on how you define spirituality. We can make tremendous strides in the study of consciousness. Mindfulness training is one such fairly recent benefit that I can speak for personally. No gods are required though. Sam Harris, one of the New Atheists, as people call them, writes books about meditation and spirituality – no gods required, but great benefits are possible.

            I think we’re in a world of hurt right now, and I think in one sense, we can lay the blame at the door of science. We are being bombarded with objective, measurable, empirical, repetitive, predictive evidence that our natural world does not include these gods and souls and afterlives and so forth, and this drives right at the heart of our most closely held beliefs; the ones burnt into our brains at a young age. We are highly resistant (and afraid) to challenge those beliefs, but deep down we know we should, and the resulting cognitive conflict makes us tense, anxious, angry, hostile… You can see it everywhere. Our entire society is suffering cognitive dissonance, but if we survive the religionists, we’ll get through it. The next generation is not being indoctrinated to the same degree and in the same numbers as our generation and those that came before, and they are starting to throw off the claptrap; yet they still care. They still want to do good. They still want peace and productive lives – no gods required. They are not going to have that same cognitive dissonance which is so destructive to our personal and societal mental health.

            Neale could be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem, if he would drop the woo and focus on things that work – like meditation and mindfulness training. He could still make a living – honestly for a change. Instead he fills people’s heads with things that can only be taken on faith (pretending to know things you don’t know) and if you take them on faith and believe them, then you are increasing the cognitive dissonance, because the scientific evidence debunks the new beliefs. It just adds to the problem, creating more angst and unease. I will be the first to admit that there are many great ideas mixed into his books, different ways of saying – do unto others as you would have them do unto you – in more flowery language like the highest version/highest vision thing. It’s good stuff – but then he counters the good by creating an imaginary god which increases the cognitive conflict in our brains because we know there is no evidence for his god or any other god.

            As for the point about animals, the difference may be one of fear. Most researchers think that unlike us, animals are not aware of the fact that they are going to die. We are, and it scares the crap out of us, so we turn to various sorts of woo to cover it up. I think truth is more important. And courage.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            I’ve been following along, and now I feel a need to point out some things.

            You say, “I think we’re in a world of hurt right now, and I think in one sense, we can lay the blame at the door of science. We are being bombarded with objective, measurable, empirical, repetitive, predictive evidence that our natural world does not include these gods and souls and afterlives and so forth, and this drives right at the heart of our most closely held beliefs; the ones burnt into our brains at a young age. We are highly resistant (and afraid) to challenge those beliefs, but deep down we know we should, and the resulting cognitive conflict makes us tense, anxious, angry, hostile… You can see it everywhere. Our entire society is suffering cognitive dissonance…”

            I see a couple of assumptions that I feel a need to point out.

            In order for there to be this “cognitive dissonance” that you seem to find everywhere, there would have to first be beliefs which don’t fit with what we know, or believe is possible. In a universe where discoveries are being made daily at places like CERN, where we haven’t even mapped but a tiny portion of the universe, where scientists are discovering new planets regularly, and where the instruments that are being developed are more sensitive and able to “see” more both on the macrocosm and microcosm levels, I just can’t say that someone won’t ever discover a means for explaining what we don’t yet understand about the paranormal or the afterlife​. I consider such a discovery a possibility, so there’s no cognitive dissonance there.

            I also don’t know “deep down” that we all “should” challenge our beliefs. If they provide benefit without harm, I’m not sure everyone “should” challenge their beliefs as they may not be capable of changing their world view without imploding.

            You also assume people aren’t willing to challenge their beliefs. I think there are many, many people willing to challenge their beliefs or the ​movement towards Spirituality wouldn’t be happening. And I mean all those who are trying to awaken humanity, like Barbara Marx Hubbard, Jean Houston, Marc Gafni, the Heart-Math Institute, Louise Hay and Hay House, the Mind Valley Institute, and others, not just Neale. I challenge my beliefs all the time. That’s how I form them. I just don’t come to the same conclusions that you do, which is fine. No cognitive dissonance there, either.

            The blame I would place at the door of science isn’t the information we are getting, but the direction that it’s pushed by the money behind it. A scientist can’t receive funding unless theirs is a field that’s currently being promoted. Medical research is often funded, but it’s for more synthetic chemicals to consume at high costs, not for the study of altered states on healing or the benefits of cannabinoids from a natural plant. If what you require is empirical evidence, I’d consider who’s controlling what gets funded and what we, therefore, learn—or don’t because those who have the information don’t want to share it. No cognitive dissonance there, either. A bit pissed off at times at what doesn’t get funded, but that’s more to do with priorities.

            The times I’ve felt most hostile towards you hasn’t been because you’re providing data that’s somehow “against” my beliefs, but because you have a habit of repeating the same information over and over again, as if it’s something you copy and paste, and you tend to have the same argument: why we prefer belief in a God (by whatever name or description). I’m not crazy about your being dismissive of my subjective experiences and those of others, but I understand why you do. I feel it’s inappropriate for you to be insulting Neale by implying he’s a charlatan who’s only in it for the money, but I’ll leave that for him. No cognitive dissonance there, either. And healthy boundaries to boot.

            You’ve also mentioned that Out of Body experiences (OOB’s) can be produced by manipulating the brain. But, who’s​ to say that what’s being produced isn’t a mimicking of an OOB rather than the experience of a spontaneous OOB? Yes, maybe the brain is feeling the sensations and visualization of an OOB, but who’s to say that’s all that’s involved? I’ve repeated, nearly verbatim, a heated discussion I overheard during an OOB, and it was confirmed by both those involved. That’s pretty good “proof” in my book. And not only knowing my sister was rear-ended three times and where, and that she knew it was me on the phone (before caller ID) the third time I called, answering with, “Were all fine, Annie. Just more damage to the car.” More proof of paranormal abilities in my book.

            Please don’t take this wrong… or you might, but it’s not meant to intentionally harm… but have you considered that your own rigidity in your posts here is a defensive mechanism that protects you from challenging what you think? Even in the simplest of scientific experiments there are variables, some unknown. Yet you don’t challenge that science is no longer pure. Every investigation has an ulterior motive these days. Saving the human genome on Mars. Creating a DNA version of Noah’s ark. How to increase profits. Keeping the sheeple in the dark and controlling the information we receive. Science for the sheer sake of discovery is now rare. Doesn’t that cause you some discomfort about what youdon’t know? Another kind of cognitive dissonance?

            Just my own thoughts and beliefs…

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            LOL. Annie, you always manage to point out areas where I should have been a little more specific. The cognitive dissonance plaguing our society is not so much based on the idea that we have a core theory that confirms exactly what particles can and can’t do. The primary cognitive dissonance in our society today, comes from the destruction of the foundation for the Abrahamic religions. It’s becoming more and more widely known that there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck (no original sin), no global flood, no mass exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. These things are known beyond reasonable doubt in scholarly circles and are steadily making their way into our society and creating all sorts of cognitive dissonance for those who hold these primitive beliefs.
            .
            We don’t have to map the universe in order to learn what particles can and can’t do. Scientists don’t pretend to know everything, but some things we know for sure. We’ve conducted countless experiments and never found exceptions to the core laws of physics, and our growing understanding of quantum mechanics, instead of leading to woo, like Chopra and Walsch would have us do, instead leads to amazingly accurate predictions that confirm that these forces do not exist, or if they do, they are moot because they have no effect here. This is not just Sean Carroll saying this; it’s all of physics saying it. He just says it in terms that are easier for laymen to follow. I’m reading a book by Lawrence Krauss that seems like it might be headed in the same direction. Perhaps he will have a different spin on it. Scientists are taking responsibility for having done a terrible job of educating the rest of us about what they have learned in recent decades. It’s relatively new (and unwelcome) information that is going to take a while to circulate and gain acceptance, just as it was unwelcome to learn that smoking cigarettes is bad for us.

            I’m willing to agree that many are willing to change their beliefs – this accounts for the growth of the fastest section of the “religious” community – the “Nones.” However a lot of people hold their beliefs very deeply and it feels like they are ripping a piece of themselves out when they question them. A lot of the Christians are going to migrate to New Age as they come to understand that their god does not exist, and the next step is to show that Neale’s god doesn’t exist either. I’m getting an early start! What would you guys do without me here! I spice this place up. This was a Kumbaya site till I stirred the pot. This is a real conversation.

            Yup, I’m repetitive. I learned that from Neale. I asked him once why I should buy another book that essentially says the same thing the last four or five said, and he pointed to the power of repetition. He was right. I’m using the same technique, I’m just more obvious about. it.

            Don’t forget, I said I think Neale is either delusional or potentially a charlatan, a scoundrel – a very likeable scoundrel perhaps, but the best ones usually are! He may just be delusional though. Until he has some sort of evidence for his hypothesis, the burden of proof is on him since everything he says flies in the face of what the scientific process tells us. Sorry you don’t like me saying so, but I think the odds are highly in my favor that I am correct, but I’m willing to be proven wrong, and will mea culpa up one side and down the other if evidence is presented to prove me wrong. Otherwise he’s a big boy, and nothing I say about him comes close to what fundagelicals say about him

            Not sure I get your point about the discussion in an OoB. Of course the brain would still be able to hear discussions around it and make those part of the experience. Enough people have reported these, without ever providing empirical evidence that they actually saw something that could only have happened if they actually left their bodies – but these reports are never compelling. I read Robert Monroe’s book, and he tried hard, but while he had some interesting coincidences, it was far from compelling evidence. We should know for sure by now.

            I’m not sure I follow your last paragraph. You have to remember that I’ve been through all this. I did challenge my Christian beliefs, then my New Age beliefs, and I constantly research to question what I learn from scientific discoveries – but those aren’t based on beliefs, so that’s very different. Christianity and New Age are completely based on beliefs with a complete lack of compelling objective evidence, while scientific discoveries are the exact opposite. It’s a different paradigm. “Science” done properly, is always pure. I acknowledge that “scientists” are not always pure. That’s why I look for multiple sources. If science for the sheer sake of discovery is rare (and I disagree that’s so), then it’s because we have a government ruled by ignorant people who themselves are wracked with cognitive dissonance – guys like Mike Pence, for example.

            I don’t see myself suffering from cognitive dissonance, in part because, while I get frustrated at my inability to get points across to people who refuse to entertain them, I don’t engage in the same sort of hostility. Who have I personally insulted? I’m usually on the receiving end of personal insults, not the deliveryman. Also as a skeptical agnostic, I don’t hold a lot of beliefs. I “think that” things may or may not be true, but I very seldom “believe in” such and such – and that’s where the cognitive dissonance come from – believing. I don’t see the logic in giving more credence to religionists who have nowhere near the education and knowledge scientists have.

            I appreciate the valid and challenging questions though. I have pushed Sean Carroll’s book to a handful of people who seem to have the intellect and potential to understand the science and take it to heart. I see you as a potential for that, given you are smarter than the average bear. There are a lot of folks who don’t even have a layman’s knowledge of basic science; but I figure it’s worthwhile to try and spread a little knowledge if I can and try to get smart people, at least, to take a look at something that actually comes with real evidence.

          • Gross Prophet

            @Spiritual_Annie:disqus

            ‘A lot of folks who don’t even have a layman’s knowledge of basic science;’

            I would place you squarely in that category, Patrick, as you would so desperately like to appear as knowledgeable, and keep pushing particular scientific-sounding ideas, but you have either forgotten, or, more likely never really understood, the primal impetus for all scientific inquiry.

            You said in one post — ‘Science, unlike religion, NEVER claims to have figured it all out. A good scientist will never claim that something is “proven,”, then, just a few posts later, you also say ‘Scientists don’t pretend to know everything, but some things we know for sure.’

            (Aside – I know you will try to parse the wording, and deny any connection between the two ideas by virtue of the word ‘proven’, but that is just intellectual dishonesty, so don’t bother.)

            You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim that you are open to new data, then constantly, and consistently, deny the possibility of any new data EVER being discovered, as Annie alluded to (she is also absolutely on target with her comments on your ‘cognitive dissonance’ calculated rationalizations).

            The basic tenet of scientific, critical inquiry is that WE DON’T KNOW _WHAT_ WE DON’T KNOW. You have absolutely no clue as to what discoveries will be made that could bear on what you so casually (and categorically) dismiss in nearly every post. Your doing so is equivalent to asserting that we have already learned everything there is possible to learn, discovered absolutely everything there is to be discovered — and, moreover, that we UNDERSTAND absolutely everything about what we know. History is replete with examples of short-sighted fools making similar pronouncements.

            Every new discovery, or theorem, or hypothesis, leads (inevitably) to more questions. We don’t know what we don’t know — which is why we ask the questions, and why we have gotten as far as we have in our understanding…which is yet so utterly infantile in scope, compared to the enormity of just the physical universe.

            Don’t bother responding, as I am certain it would only be more of your obfuscating, prevaricating, back-pedaling nonsense — and I’m simply not interested.

          • Patrick Gannon

            If anyone else would like to question me on any of these points, please do so. I will no longer respond to GP.

          • Gross Prophet

            ‘I will no longer respond to GP.’

            Yet another self-evident lie from the pathological.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Sorry, but gotta take a break. I’ll reply later.

            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Hi Annie, I have enjoyed reading your entire post but respond to OOBs. When I was in my late teens or very early twenties, I woke up in the middle of the night, I was paralyzed. I tried for several minutes to concentrate on moving any part of my body as I lay there. I became more concerned and thought I needed help and tried to call out to my wife at the time. I felt my mouth move and the air pass through my throat but no sound. None! not even the sound of air. I tried several times with no results. I had become a bit frightened by this time wondering what weird dimension I had fell into. I felt very conscious at the time. I did not leave my body but wonder what if. I eventually closed my eyes, relaxed, and opened my eyes again. When I called out to my wife again, I was so loud I startled myself, I then rolled over and had full control of my body.

            Our brains are not beyond experiencing that which seems real but is not. Nothing happened during that time that I could reference as being awake or in a spiritual state, that is there was no activities occurring that I could say I witnessed while in that state. As I recognize time, it lasted about ten minutes but i had no clock to reference. I’m pretty sure it was all a very vivid dream. Knowing that happened to me, I’m sure it could happen to another, and experienced quite differently, which might have people believing in OOBs. I will not deny those people their belief, or you if you have had a similar experience, but my experience tells me people can be tricked into believing they are conscious when not.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Jethro, that’s a known condition called “sleep paralysis.” “During rapid eye movement (REM) sleep the brain has vivid dreams, while the muscles of the body are essentially turned off. While sleeping, the muscles are unable to move so that the person won’t be able to act out dreams with their body. Sleep paralysis happens when a person wakes up before REM is finished.”

            Like other phenomenon like OoBs and NDEs, it’s a function of the brain, and some people are more susceptible than others.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Jethro,

            Patrick has it right, that’s sleep paralysis and I’ve experienced that, too. It can be frightening, especially the first time. Mine usually happen as I’m going into sleep.

            My OOB’s have been varied. The one I mentioned included hearing a heated discussion, which I should have said occurred across town and wasn’t within my physical hearing range, which was independently verified​ by each the following day. Others have been more ethereal or surreal. Some have involved others in an OOB state.

            What matters about each is who I choose to be in relation to each one. I choose to be open to possibilities, and as far as I’m concerned, the conversation provided proof enough for me.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Patrick is really good in his field of study, I respect what he has to say.
            When we actually have the benefit of proof it makes some things easier to believe of course. I know some amazing things have occurred for some people. I went through a period of predicting when cops were close with radar guns for my parents. Why couldn’t I do that for myself years later. I also have a knack for knowing who’s on a telephone but how special is that? I lost connection with my gut feeling with anxiety/panic disorder but the more I accept it and live with it, the more I seem to get reconnected as I once was.

            Love and blessings…

          • Patrick Gannon

            I thought I responded to this, but don’t see the post. Maybe I wrote it in a draft and failed to post it, and have since deleted the draft, or perhaps I put it elsewhere.

            The societal cognitive dissonance I refer to is based on the debunking of the Abrahamic religions. Certainly there are those in the New Age movement who have encountered scientific information which counters and debunks their notion of souls and gods, and this is bound to cause discomfort – but this is a small part of society – the far greater problem is the cognitive dissonance of our Abrahamic friends because right now, they still run the show.

            I get your point that some people may be unable to challenge their inner beliefs without imploding. For some people that appears to be true, and it’s an issue we have to figure out how to deal with, or wait till they pass away and the next generation takes over. No matter how hard one believes in six day creations, global floods or the presence of souls and gods, the truth is what it is and eventually prevails.

            I may have mentioned before, that I repeat things for the same reason Neale does. When the synapses fire, the brain is wired. Neale does the same thing. He writes book after book that essentially say the same thing, and when I questioned him on this he admitted that it’s all about repetition – but so is the psychological child abuse of indoctrination! Sometimes you have to hear or read something repeatedly before it sinks in. I stop and think… I am made of particles. Even though when I went to school, atoms were as deep as we got, I know that the things in my brain are made of those atoms and I know now beyond any reasonable doubt, that they can only do so many things, and that they have never been observed to do anything other than what the laws of physics say they do, and they are never affected in ways that require unknown forces in order to explain them. So I must say to myself, given this, how exactly, does a soul heal a cancer? The more you think about it, the more obvious it becomes that we’re stuck with what IS, and the chance that it’s wrong is so insignificantly small, that it makes no sense to waste time on it. Yes, there is a quantum probability that later this evening, a pink, polka dotted T-Rex will pop into existence in the middle of your living room – but don’t wait up.

            Regarding your subjective experiences, there is usually a way to find an explanation for these. You mentioned recently that some people you knew were in an argument or discussion that you observed in an OoB, and that took place in another location. Surely your brain knows of the relationship between these people, their mannerisms, their use of language, their knowledge, their typical arguments and way of arguing, and so forth. How hard can it be for your brain to manufacture a memory that turns out to be pretty close to reality in this case? Not that hard at all.

            Yeah, it’s rude to suggest Neale might be a charlatan or scoundrel – I actually like that word better – but as I see it, the less attractive alternative is that he’s delusional. We generally have a soft spot for scoundrels and admire their ability to part fools from their money. I’m just calling it the way it is. He’s not perfect. He’s made mistakes, plagiarized others work, etc. He says his movement is not religious, but all the organizations associated with it that I could find have the same tax status as religions. I even tried to do some digging to see if I could find any confirmation that the story about the broken neck and living in a car was true. it’s the kind of thing one might invent if one were setting out to invent new holy scripture. In religion, there are always the lowly who are being exalted. Starting from a low point, follows a successful story line that has been used for millennia.

            I challenge what I think on a daily basis. I’m so paranoid about getting it wrong that I’m constantly fact-checking myself. It still happens. I make mistakes and have to eat crow. I’ve been following the science that has been cautiously suggesting for some time now, that “hey folks, we don’t know everything yet, but this core theory thing – it’s right. It can’t be any other way. Of course anything is possible but QM tells us that is so remote as to be ignored, so guess what? There are no gods or souls.”

            In order to understand this you have to understand some of the physics, and that’s not my field. However I’ve read book after book, that addresses this new understanding in slightly different ways, and they all have to start by providing a brief tutorial of the physics involved. It’s finally starting to sink in enough that I feel comfortable attempting to express it myself and respond to questions that will be thrown at me. Sean Carroll has perhaps been the boldest in this regard, and he was the first to put it in terms that are easier to communicate. I’m reading Lawrence Krauss now, and it remains to be seen if he continues with that. So far, he’s more technical so I have to work harder. Yes – I constantly challenge my beliefs. I even illustrate that here and elsewhere in my willingness to put it out there and face the music.

            Another contributor who dislikes me suggests I have no clue, but here are some of the books related to the subject that I have read: Our Mathematical Universe, A Universe from Nothing, Parallel Worlds, The Future of the Mind, Consciousness and the Social Brain, (I’m skipping books on evolution), A History of Time, The Big Picture, Time Reborn, The Cosmic Landscape, The Greatest Story Ever Told – So Far, and there are others downstairs that I’m too lazy to go down and list. I’m not making this stuff up. I’m constantly on the lookout for books that debunk the physics. but you just can’t get around objective evidence. It is what it is. There are no magical substances that affect the particles in our world. I “think” this is true with a very high degree of probability, because if it’s wrong, it means everything we ever thought we knew about physics is dead wrong; and I don’t see that being probable.

            Cognitive dissonance is manifested in anxiety, angst, hostility, anger. I certainly get frustrated, but I don’t make personal insults (suggesting Neale is a scoundrel might be interpreted that way, but it’s pertinent to the discussion, so it’s not intended as an insult). Personal insults are a clear sign of hostility. As long as someone is willing to debate on the issues, I’ll go at it as long as I have the the time and availability, but when the insults start, there’s no sense going further. Sure the insults bother me, and in person, things might get interesting, but here it makes sense to walk away, so there are a couple people here I have no interest in debating. You and I have turned a corner and found a way to debate the issues rather than the personalities.

            I would not agree that science for the sheer sake of discovery is rare. I subscribe to science newsletters, and there are discoveries made on a daily or weekly basis that have few if any commercial applications associated with them. What commercial benefit is there in discovering new planets outside our solar system, for example? Elon Musk’s plan to save the human genome, for example, does not depend on your tax dollars.

            If I was just getting into high school and could start over again, I would definitely take a focus on science. This is the most amazing time in the history of the world from a discovery standpoint. Sample – this is in today’s TerraDaily newsletter:

            “Miami (AFP) April 5, 2017 – Orangutans, chimpanzees and bonobos are the nearest relatives of humans in the primate world, and like us, they can tell when a person is wrong in their beliefs, researchers said Wednesday. Great apes were also willing to help a person who was mistaken about the location of an object, according to the study in the journal PLOS ONE. ”

            Pretty interesting, huh?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            You did post a response, but I hadn’t replied yet because I’d spent too much time online already. It’s still there, farther down.

            It’s funny we should be talking particles. I just watched a short video put out by BBC about quantum particles. It’s essentially a physicist explaining all of the “foundational” particles, which he’s irritated to point out come to an uneven 61 (unless they find a particle for gravity, which would bring it to an even 62). The very first thing he addresses is that what we know comes from just 5% of the universe because the vast majority is comprised of dark energy and dark matter, about which we know very little.

            There are other dimensions to consider, as well. Many are theoretical, but if I remember right, CERN proved a fourth very small dimension that was only present a very short time. Last time I heard, string theory sometimes had it up to nine dimensions.

            What it comes down to between you and I are possibilities. Yes, quantum physics has confirmed many things, but it’s brought up more questions, as well. Laws are now being referred to more as “habits,” where’s the”graviton” that would complete the picture,what makes quantum particles have different”probabilities?”

            With all that’s left unanswered, I have hope that the metaphysical will be much better understood when later discoveries are made. I don’t accept science’s answers today as the final answer on anything.

            I imagine many will implode, and we need to figure out how best to help them.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes, but we can see the effects that dark energy and dark matter have on physical matter – the thing we are made of.

            I hope you will at least finish Carroll’s book so you are familiar with the other side of the argument.

            Let me know when the theory of gravity implodes and you go flying off. Let me know when germ theory implodes and you can drink out of the toilet without getting sick. Let me know when information theory implodes – oh, I’ll know that because we won’t be able to communicate using this medium any longer…

            We will continue to make new discoveries, but some things are not going to change. We could lose all the knowledge we have, and after thousands of years, we would come right back to the same theories that work today.

          • Jethro

            So I looked up Sean Carroll last night, (youtube) he started out awesome with a story about a lady and children dying in her care and tipped the belief subject. How people believed she was guilty simply because they desire to find a guilty party and the first statistics didn’t help her any. If he stayed on that subject he went over my head. I listened for about 1/2 hour.

            I cannot control what Neale means to another, I cannot control Neale, nor have I ever asked him what he REALLY means, I honestly don’t intend to, but you never know. Neale can’t control the number of nut jobs following him either. I get from it what I want and that’s all that matters. We both agree he says some pretty good stuff and some of it sounds like crap to us, Annie will get something different that goes with her experiences. I just don’t see anything wrong with that.

            The world is slowly waking up to a new age. Slow like that cold molasses story, (I just picked up a fresh jug by the way). Too many people believe in a spiritual entity for me to think that it’s going away with scientific explanation very quickly. Science has given you a higher purpose or thought. Your very interested and in being so interested it’s hard for you to imagine how anyone could hear what you’ve heard and still yank a vision of God from under their tail bone. It’s not a matter of God being real in the world, It’s a matter of God being real in the minds of the people. People believe in God and that is the fact, God does not have to be a fact, the people make God a fact. Go against certain groups and they will claim God killed you… and believe it!

            The animal thing I pulled out from under MY tailbone.

          • Jethro

            Sean Carroll vs William Lane Craig, they are debating the universe. I’m not concerned about whether or not the universe formed or the theories concerning the universe. I would rather zoom in to earth and look at why people think the way they think. I wish to understand why Humans need a deity. There are too many versions of a God to concentrate on disproving if the Bible is correct or not. We also have pagans, Wicca, Buddhists and so on. What about beliefs? Who’s talking about how humans think and why they think that way still, in our highly evolved current condition. Human beliefs are more mysterious than the universe.

            Look once again at the lady and children dying in her care. 4 children,one woman. Did she do it? Sean said people believed she was guilty simply because they Need to blame something. (By the way, I said it wrong below and his lecture makes a little more sense… giggling at self, more masculine than a school girl.) Why do they need to blame something? Do they need to be right? Are they choosing highest probability because they’ve never lost even one child? Do they need to eliminate themselves from the spotlight? The thing is, there is not any evidence saying she is guilty….Lol, set and…go! Something just sounds familiar here. Anyway, Why? Why are people so quick to decide? If we are discussing deities, it’s because they heard about it someway or another. Nobody comes to it on their own.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I haven’t seen this debate, so I can’t comment on the specific topic you are referring to. I’m not a big fan of Craig, as you might imagine. Carroll, representing science, has mounds and mounds of evidence and experiments and predictions and observations and empirical data and so forth. Craig has a dusty old book, and that’s it.

            Humans needed deities when they were evolving because there was so much of their world that was fearful and they understood none of it. Who, but an all-powerful being could make it storm and thunder, create floods and earthquakes, set off volcanoes, etc.? Who but a god could create it all? They had no understanding of such things, but humans have an innate need to understand their world – that’s why guys like Carroll have come to understand so much of it.

            We accepted gods and bowed to them because we evolved to accept authority without question. When a grownup yells, “Snake! Move!” you don’t sit and ponder it, or question it, or argue about it, you move. Otherwise you get bitten and don’t grow up to reproduce. Over time, those who respond unquestionably to authority would live, and the others would not.

            Today, our environment has changed, and such traits now work against us, just like our sex drive. If humans had not evolved a strong sex drive, we would have died out back when most children died very young. Now it’s a big problem because we consume a year’s worth of resources in the first two or three months of the year. Fortunately we also evolved intellect, which gave us the ability to develop contraception in order to manage our sex drive and prevent overpopulation. Organizations like the Catholic Church insist on bringing us to eventual destruction rather than face their maniacal obsession with sex, but we still have that ingrained trait that tells us to follow authority. One of the reasons I do what I do is to point out that it’s not just OK to question that authority, but it’s mandatory that we do so, if we are going to survive.

            Neale leverages those same evolutionary traits. He comes across as the authority figure we should follow. He even styles his hair to look a bit like the depictions of the biblical Yahweh. While offering advice and suggestions to face our problems, he also says it doesn’t really matter because when we die we get to be gods again; and now I guess he’s proposing that we don’t have to fix things because there are some HEB critters running around who are going to lead us or do it for us (that’s probably a gross misrepresentation, but I’m not going to buy the book). Who knows – maybe I’m one of the HEBs trying to prod the sheeple out of their fear and ignorance! LOL

          • Jethro

            Their debate was of no interest to me, I shouldn’t say of no interest. They were discussing whether or not the universe had a starting point or not. It’s hard for the human mind to conceive that something has existed forever. whether it has or not is of no concern to me, but it is interesting, especially that they find a need to debate it for the purposes of proving each other wrong. If they were talking about something other than theories there could be no debate. One guy would state the facts, the other guy would cry. The purpose of a debate could only be to generate funds for a specific study. In this case, it’s so one of them could say HAHA! I’m not going to claim to hold much intelligence, but I don’t think there’s enough information to prove beyond a doubt one way or the other. If the debate is about funding, both are explaining “beliefs”, “theories”, they need more facts to create proof, to get more facts, they need someone with money to “believe” in the theory.

            I understand that a lack of scientific studies spawned many stories that were false. Its very uncanny that there is a description in the Bible that so closely resembles things that are occurring today by whatever cause or definition. At the same time I’m baffled by the lack of concern for things that are occurring on earth, that to me are clearly man made. Religions say they told everyone it’s coming, scientist are providing facts that say the earth is experiencing a major change and why. Nobody, whether having a scientific, or religious, background are considering a change on the level needed to correct the damages that have occurred, and are still occurring. My opinion is that they need to quit looking at how it all began and start looking at what could possibly cause life on our earth to end. The ability to figure that one out exists for sure.

            Another thing I find baffling is an idea of your own that, I’m sure is shared by many others, religions promoting sexual intercourse for the purpose adding to the population is bad, but at the same time your satisfied that medical science is prolonging life and finding ways to stop problems with birth in a world that is too crowded.

            Religions have kept the population from destroying itself for thousands of years by determining that certain experiments and ideas were of the devil. Sexual intercourse was to be kept confined to married couples to eliminate welfare mama’s, or reduce them, husbands do die unfortunately. Religions promote work, they say go get a job and care for your family, pay your bills and give to others. Everything is out of order today, so much so that hatred and anger have become prevalent.

            I have stated several times and will continue to state that my intelligence level is not high enough to understand many things. It’s my job to make repairs to peoples homes, do it right and fair. Treat people with respect, not just to get their money, but because they are just like me. I am intelligent enough to do that. It’s what I chose to do with my life. It’s only fair that I maintain a level of education to perform my job for the bettering of life for people I serve. If not for those people I would be out of work. If science had not figured out that when people dump their feces in the lake and then drink from the lake it kills people, plumbing laws would not exist. There have been many Ideas and beliefs through the centuries. Much of it considered bad ideas due to the claim of it’s source, or it was knowledge integrated into a religion and nullified the possibility that It might work if you just tweak the human sacrifice out of it. today’s religions and scientific ideas are under the same scrutiny. When we ask which parts are bad and good, the opposing parties are so prejudice they say “Every bit of it is rubbish, every single bit of it!! “But what about the oxygen that they say we need to breath, what about that?” “Rubbish, nothing that group says is correct!!”

            I would like to understand which part of the human mind has evolved enough to say it has evolved beyond the thoughts of those people who built the pyramids. A people we have decided were so uneducated that aliens built everything that we cannot understand how to build without modern technologies. I would like to understand what makes today,s humans think they are so much better than yesterdays humans. Why can’t we eliminate money and give each other all that’s needed with all our understanding of evolution, life and the planet. Why do we still have greed, desires…..
            I just realized i’m lost in my thoughts and I’m just babbling on about crap that has no answers, I could go on and on. It all comes down to what a person believes. I don’t care to help the intelligent understand something more intelligent, I would like to see the most ignorant just get the basics. Spiritual ideas seem to help when you can’t explain common sense to someone. Like you said, “Humans needed deities when they were evolving because there was so much of their world that was fearful and they understood none of it.” All human’s have not evolved beyond that.

          • Patrick Gannon

            The object of the debate, I assume was to evaluate the existence of Craig’s god, and whether the universe was created or always existed would be pertinent to that discussion. Religious minds seem to have no problem assuming their god existed forever, but do have a serious problem assuming the universe existed forever, because if it did, then their god didn’t create it, and that’s another reduction in the power of their god. If he didn’t start the universe, then there really isn’t anything else he’s done. I’m confident we’ll figure out how life (that term needs to be defined) started, and how consciousness works, but we’re making great strides in both of those areas. Craig’s god is under attack because we don’t need him to explain anything anymore.

            The lack of concern for the things happening on earth, stems, I think, from the Abrahamic belief that the world is destined to end in an apocalyptic fashion. Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe that the earth is going to have an apocalyptic end. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those who deny that our planet is in trouble, tend to be religious believers. I know of few atheists and agnostics who deny that we’re in trouble because of climate change, overpopulation, pollution, depletion of resources, etc.. In the New Age movement, it’s more of a “don’t care” because we’re all going to be gods anyway. The only people who seem to really care are the non-believers.

            Speaking for myself, I am not satisfied that medical science is prolonging life. It’s a concern, in large part because it’s big business. My dog got really sick and the most loving thing I could do for him was to put him to sleep. My dad is in that same condition right now, and hopefully he will pass away very soon, but the medical business wants to keep him alive as long as possible. If we’re going to prolong lives, then we need to have fewer of them here. We’re looking at a guardian for my mom, and right away, the individual we are interviewing wants to spend all sorts of money getting her treatments that makes no sense at all, other than to fill other people’s pockets and drain all the resources.

            Regarding the pyramids, most of those mysteries have been solved. We know of several techniques that less technologically advanced people could or did use to build those things. We know the technique they used to drag those big blocks across the sand, and we know of at least one way, using water in which to “float” those blocks up the pyramid by building a sort of canal system up the edge of the pyramid. They’ve done the math, and know how it could have been done with primitive tools – no aliens required.

            Humans are still evolving, but at a much slower rate, because we’ve reduced the number of “defects” that would have been culled in the past. People who never would have survived to pass on their genes 500 years ago, have no problem doing so today. If we are to continue this, then we have to figure out how to do gene therapy in order to manipulate our own evolution – the only species ever able to do so on this planet. On the other hand, we may end up “culling” a lot of the population in a rather horrid fashion, but get evolution back on track in so doing.

            Why do we have greed? Evolution. If you accumulate goods, you have a better chance of surviving and passing on your genes.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Jethro,

            I like it when you babble!

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Hi Annie, your just a sweatheart!

            Love and blessings to you too.

    • Jean

      “Can someone explain to me why gods are unable to speak to all of us at the same time”

      Well, it’s written in CWG first book : god speaks to everybody, but not everybody is ready to really listen. Neale said also that God speaks not only with words, but in many different ways, including feelings. I fully agree with Neale.
      Of course I think we should not think God as a mythical old man standing in clouds, but rather as the ‘cosmic intelligence’ behind everything. But God cannot be understood with rational mind, but through heart and love. So we have to open first our heart. If you stay only in your mind and accept only the material world, with objects which seem to separated, of course you will not find god.
      Personally i see god when i walk in nature and see its beauty, or when i see the wonderful eyes of children.

      • Patrick Gannon

        No, Neales’ god selected him, and speaks to him in a way that is very different from enjoying nature or the smiles of children, which gives non-believers the same joy and pleasure you experience. If Neale’s god wanted to make himself known, he could do so in several ways. One that would have a big influence on me is relaying a cure for cancer, or a replacement for the laws of physics that would explain how this “cosmic intelligence” organizes itself and affects the particles in our natural world – something for which no evidence exists.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Patrick,

          Neale’s God did want to make itself known, or it wouldn’t have participated in Book 4.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Funny you call his god “it” when he almost always refers to his god anthropomorphically with “he” or “she.”

            But I wasn’t referring to his god making itself known to him – but to the rest of us. Why is that so hard for it to do?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            But it has made itself known—through Neale.

            Do you think we ought to all have such direct experiences, when we’re all unique and have our own relationship with Divinity? People miss the signs and synchronicities in their lives as it is. Many would write it off if they had a direct experience of their God. I’m not sure it’s that it’s too hard for Divinity to do as it is for us to see/hear/experience it.

            What would you accept as a sign from Divinity? A loud voice booming from the sky?

          • Patrick Gannon

            LOL. That would be a good start, but I would probably suspect aliens rather than gods if that happened. As the saying goes, “any advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

            I might be swayed if every single human on earth experienced the same “vision” at the same time – again, could be aliens. Why would that be so difficult for a divine being? What would the fact that we are all unique have to do with the ability or lack thereof of some god to communicate simultaneously with all of us in the same, meaningful way?

            I would give credence to an explanation and demonstration of how something immaterial can affect our material world. Again, it could be aliens, but demonstrations of superior technology from a prophet or messenger like Moses, Elijah, Jesus or Neale, would be far more convincing than the complete lack thereof.

            We have never had any of this or anything similar, and Neale is certainly no exception. We are mandated to pretending to know things we don’t know = faith. That’s just not good enough, because we have learned again and again that faith is not reliable. (Not to be confused with trust).

            There have been thousands of gods throughout history, and yet now, Neale’s god is the one and only? He has no more evidence for his god than anyone has ever had for any of the others. Why does his god deserve the credibility all those who came before lack? It’s just another god of the gaps. We don’t fully understand consciousness yet, so it must be god. We don’t know yet (or possibly ever) how the Big Bang was set off (though we have plausible explanations), and we don’t yet know how life first started. That’s all that is left for the gods to provide answers to; and we’re going to figure out consciousness and the start of life in a matter of time. I read a report today that said scientists have modeled mechanical synapses that can learn.

            Neale’s god has been ineffectual. Is the world a better place than it was in 1995 when he was first introduced? Neale is certainly better off, but what about the rest of the world? Are we still in the calm or are we in the storm?

            Our natural world is so freaking amazing and mind-boggling and magnificent – why do we need to make up stuff when what we have is pretty darn cool just the way it is…

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            I don’t think it’s a matter of Divinity’s ability to give every human on the planet the same vision at the same time. As co-creators of our experiences, there would need to be a critical mass of people who ask for that experience, putting their creative energies together in order to co-create it.

            My pointing out that we’re unique was about trying to find a single vision that each of us would see and interpret uniquely, some negatively, some as a sign of their righteousness, some as simple affirmation.

            The same applies to the other things you’ve mentioned as evidence you’d consider.

            The way I read it, Neale repeatedly says not that “his God” is the one and only, but that all our individual relationships with Divinity lead to the same thing through Oneness. That’s the something about God we misunderstand, the understanding of which could change everything—Oneness.

            “Better” is a relative term. One could say we are worse off because of the political atmosphere, the environment, or more. One could also say that most people don’t change easily or often willingly until such a high level of chaos is reached that we can no longer deny that what we’re doing isn’t working, and we’re close to critical mass for change. Whether that’s some sort of collapse or we choose to save ourselves remains to be seen.

            Nature is grand and awe-filling and wondrous. It can be healing and peaceful, too. For myself, it can also lead to a beingness that includes Oneness. Very cool, indeed.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            So, you’re saying Neale co-created his conversation, and that it was not instigated by Divinity (whatever that means). If Neale had not co-created it, the conversation never would have happened? To me that further degrades the credibility that Neale actually had any conversation with his god. (By “his god” I seek only to try and point to whatever definition it is that he uses on any given day for his idea of god. This would be different from a fundagelical’s god who would be very different). By that logic, there should be enough people in this forum who believe Neale, who ought to be able to co-create a similar conversation that is experienced exactly the same by all of them?

            I see an experiment in the offing… I’ve proposed tests before, but no interest from Neale. Get thousands of people organized to watch a meditation video and focus on the exact same number, and change the output of a random number generator. That’s an actual experiment you could run to “co-create” an experience that would lead to objective results. Similar prayer experiments have not worked.

            I’m not opposed to the experience or feeling of ONEness. Noted atheist Sam Harris speaks of it himself. No gods are required to have this experience. I’ve had it a few times. It is very cool indeed, but there’s no reason to think it’s anything other than a product of our brains. Damage the brain in the right way and you’ll never have it again.

            I agree that “better” is relative. I look around and I chuckle when I think of Neale’s storm before the calm. I suspect the calm comes when we’re all gone…

          • Jethro

            “So, you’re saying Neale co-created his conversation, and that it was not instigated by Divinity”
            Divinity? Sure.

            I addressed this one for you my friend…. I wrote, “That voice that tells you there is no God… That’s someones idea of God. Really! God has been telling you there’s no God. Figure that one out and you will understand CWG a little better.”

            God has been telling you there’s no God… I thought for sure you would have been all over that one.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Why would god tell me he doesn’t exist, and tell Neale he does? Why would such a god have any credibility, and why would he set up one or the other to be wrong? Sounds pretty evil to me.

            No gods are telling me they don’t exist. The output of the scientific process has come to that conclusion.

          • Jethro

            Who is Neale having a conversation with?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Himself. You know when you talk to yourself? Who are you talking to? We can have multiple consciousnesses in our brains. Neale apparently believes one of his, is God.

          • Jethro

            That’s what I’m saying. He is giving us his thoughts and providing a source other than himself. He calls that source God. The same thoughts that you use to tell yourself it is best to not believe in God is the same source Neale uses to express his thoughts in the books. He is the God he is talking to based on his thoughts of his experiences concerning God. You give your opinion cercerning no God from the same thought process. If we use that idea presented by Neale, that he’s having a conversation with God, we could in a stretch say God is telling you there is not a God. It all depends on the perspective of beliefs but it is ultimately that part of you that decides what is best for you. I think I said that right. Be back tonight I think.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “The same thoughts that you use to tell yourself it is best to not believe in God is the same source Neale uses to express his thoughts in the books. ” I am almost 100% certain that it is not correct. We do not have the same source. I don’t share the same particles that are in Neale’s head where his thoughts came from. That is his source. My source is the particles in my head. And before anyone goes there – no, the particles in our brains are not “entangled.”

            Agree that we come to different conclusions based on thought process, but those processes are obviously different in at least small ways since we come to different conclusions, and that’s because we have different brains. Give a surgeon leeway to do so, and he or she can change your personality.

            Insist on calling the core theory of the laws of physics a set of “beliefs” if you like, but at least they are there and they support the understanding we have of our natural world. How much have “beliefs” contributed to our understanding of our natural world?

          • Jethro

            Patrick, I don’t recall calling laws of physics beliefs, that is I never intended to. I was talking about the voice of reason. The conversation we have with ourselves when we are debating an action. I never intended to reference scientific theories or spiritual beliefs, I was passing on a personal thought about something. Theory…beliefs… I don’t care, one may have a higher probability than the other of being fact but neither is fact yet. My knowledge concerning physics or knowing which is fact or which is theory just isn’t there or I would pop in for more conversations. My termininology when entering that arena is at the very least butchered. What I was trying to explain was of no importance.

          • Jethro

            I don’t have the words my friend to make my point. I’ll leave it alone. I meant no insult.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            You’ve said you were practically a disciple of Neale’s, but sometimes I wonder how much you recall.

            Divinity, or Divine Energy, is constantly co-creating with all of us. Was this particular conversation instigated by Divine Energy? Well, it did wake Neale, he says. But he also starts out by saying that not a week goes by that he’s not fielding questions about the current state of the world, so in a sense all those people and Neale and Divine Energy co-created the conversation. Oh, plus all the people asking the same questions silently or to someone other than Neale. Then there’s everyone who’s drawn to buy the book or otherwise read it on Neale’s Facebook page or by borrowing it. Quite a collaborative effort that Neale ends up imparting.

            I took one of Neale’s courses that included a guided meditation on each of us having our own conversation with God, in whatever form that might be. In the course’s community, many posted of having answers that came to them immediately after focusing on their question or topic, and they weren’t all welcome answers. Mine came to me as a truth I felt in my gut rather than words. All of us experience these ongoing conversations and co-creating all the time, but don’t always recognize them as such.

            I think we’re in the eye of the storm where the second half has yet to hit, but I’ve no idea when. Things might get more difficult, or those of us working for peace, equality, ecology, and human rights might just turn things around.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yeah, but we were talking about why Neale’s god can’t or won’t manifest itself to all of us at the same time. Your response, as I understood it was that we have to initiate the conversation, we have to decide to co-create, so that must mean Neale initiated the contact, though that’s not what the book says. Prior to writing the book, Neale was not fielding questions from others about the state of the world. He was supposedly trying to get his act together at that time.

            So, if it did wake Neale, that means his god initiated it, right? A sleeping person does not initiate a conversation. So if it could do that for Neale, why not do that for everyone all at the same time? It’s highly suspicious that gods always have select messengers and prophets and are unable to speak to everyone all at once. The only time this ever happened that I can think of, supposedly was at Mt. Sinai, which makes the Jews unique:

            ““Moses called all of Israel and said to them: ‘Hear, O Israel, the decrees and the ordinances that I speak in your ears today–learn them, and be careful to perform them. The Lord your God sealed a covenant with us at Horev [Mount Sinai]. Not with our forefathers did God seal this covenant, but with us–we who are here, all of us alive today. Face to face did God speak with you on the mountain from amid the fire.’ (Deuteronomy 5:1-4)”

            No other god that I know of has revealed himself to multiple people at the same time, in a godly vs. human persona. Of course the problem with the Jewish story is that the Exodus never happened in any way, shape or form as described in the bible, so we still have no evidence that any god has ever manifested itself to any human. It only took a couple chapters for the Jews to fall apart, so witnessing the all-powerful, all-knowing, Yahweh didn’t have much of a lasting effect on them!

            Our discussion began with me questioning why gods are incapable of revealing themselves to everyone, and I don’t have a good answer. It seems that the messenger has to initiate the co-creation of the conversation that will turn him into a messenger, which seems a bit of a roundabout way to go about things.

            I do remember all the verbiage about co-creating, but I don’t recall reading about who initiates this process. In Neale’s case it seems his god did, and if so, why him? Why not all of us? Why not a scientist? Why did he pick a religious guy? Why not a woman? Why is it never a woman?

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Patrick,

            I now have the book, though I haven’t read much yet. In it, part of the conversation is about precisely why Neale ended up writing it. He likens it to the many of us who knocked on God’s door with our thoughts, words and deeds, and God has answered the door. In this instance, all of us who question humanity’s future were knocking, and God answered by ringing Neale’s doorbell (my paraphrasing). Why speak through Neale? Well, I imagine that a tried and successful method was preferred, especially as it’s an extension of the previous conversations (I assume).

          • Patrick Gannon

            Or possibly Neale needed to beef up his retirement plan. Why can’t God get his message to everyone, so that we don’t have to even consider the possibility that this is all a delusion or intentional charade? I have no option but to start with a skeptical outlook because Neale, like every other messenger or prophet is incapable of providing anything that remotely resembles objective evidence.

            Why knock on his door? Why not knock on the Popes’ door? He’d get a much larger audience.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Patrick,

      I’ve got it!

      My hostility comes from a statement you often make, not from any “cognitive dissonance.” It’s that it’s insulting to my intelligence and reason when you say, “pretending to know things you don’t know.” (You don’t even say “we” but “you”—making it personal.)

      That’s not it. I believe that we don’t know everything, therefore things we believe have the possibility of existing but are as yet undiscovered. That’s what causes my hostility, not “cognitive dissonance.” I think it’s arrogant to think that we know all there is to know, or believe all that there is to believe.

      Breakthrough!

      Much gratitude to the Divinity for understanding I received in a flash. {Grin}

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • Patrick Gannon

        I’m sorry you find that to be insulting, but it’s not meant that way. Faith has two definitions. One is pretending to known things we don’t know. (I’ll change the “you” to “me” – that’s very good advice). The other can be seen as trust, but trust is always based on some past experience, some real data.

        You haven’t insulted me in a long time, and you’ve slowly become more open to my ideas, so I’ve tried to respond in kind.

        I never said that we know all there is to know – good heavens no, but we know some things, and know them very well. It’s also possible that the things that have the “possibility” of existing – don’t exist; particularly when all the evidence says so.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Patrick,

          I’ve appreciated that we’ve been able to be more amicable in our conversations. You haven’t accused me of a “straw man” in quite a while. 😀

          I have no problem with possibilities existing or not when it comes to my beliefs. If my beliefs are proven wrong somehow, I wouldn’t crumble. But, I do have all those subjective, personal experiences that are similar with many other people’s subjective, personal experiences that I consider to be proof. 😉

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

  • Sam

    “In times of sadness and worry”

    There ever been a time this wasn’t the case? Life is pain. Yes?
    Earth, and the physical world, is all about every kind of pain there is. Seems like pain is the key ingredient for making life. Heard of the expression: “pinching myself (ouch!)”? How else I know I’m alive? 🙂
    How we struggle, push forward, and evolve, only to find out that the road was the goal. Then we look back, and gets it: All the hardship/pain is what we are here for. Often I find it cruel, and I curse it(!), but it is the truth.
    Buddhism wish for the end of rebirth. They don’t get it. We will choose a road of hardship every time (all voluntary), as it is the only way to a “life in color”; to actually come alive. To be a formless soul, and absolute free, is wonderful. But for an endless eternity, without any feedback of a body, you go mad.

    • Jethro

      There was a time in our lives that we didn’t recognize emotional pain. We experienced more physical pains because we didn’t know something. for example, We didn’t know how to walk and we fell, a lot, while trying to learn. For some weird reason we kept on trying. We actually figured out which way to fall best without as much pain, or any pain. Learning to walk wasn’t the only goal, learning to fall without pain became the goal while we learned to walk. Yes we could argue that pain is what was teaching us to fall properly, but it wasn’t. Pain was a result of not knowing how to eliminate it, we learned to eliminate or at least reduce it. We live our lives learning. Just as we had learned to remove the pains of falling, we can learn to remove the pain of learning. After we learned more about mastering the control of our physical selves, we began to recognize other things beyond our physical selves and we began to question everything. We wanted to know new things, we then, had to deal with the pain of realizing that things aren’t quite what we thought, or more to the point, what we Wanted. We will spend the rest of our lives on that one. Yet we refuse to learn how to learn a new understanding without creating the pain of not understanding, or misunderstanding, because we become so sure we know. It doesn’t have to be painful. Pain is not a requirement. It is our creation.

      I can’t agree that life is pain, or that pain is the “key” ingredient, that hardship/pain is what we are here for. Pain is a result at times, but doesn’t have to be. Some of us just simply have not learned a better way to fall. We can fall/fail without pain. We don’t have to experience disappointment if we can accept that we don’t know everything, especially when we are sure we knew. We don’t have to experience disappointment if we accept that things don’t always go the way we want. Experience should teach us that things do not always happen the way we wish, but we continue to believe everything should.

      The key ingredient of life is Experience, pain is just a result of those experiences if we do not accept something about it. Pain, physical or emotional is only pain if you consider a feeling/sensation as undesirable. Since not everyone agrees on what hurts, it must be a matter of how we think about it.

      • Sam

        “The key ingredient of life is Experience, pain is just a result of those experiences if we do not accept something about it.”

        You will have no experiences, period, without pain. Think contrasts and opposites. You need both, to be able to sense anything at all.

        “Since not everyone agrees on what hurts, it must be a matter of how we think about it.”

        Pain is way more than your personal issues. Pain permeates everything in the physical world. Even walking across your floor takes its toll. Making a decision, no matter how trivial, is a little struggle. And so on. Nothing you do, escape some level of pain. This is what the Earth experience is meant to be, and is all about. And, of course, why you can have the feeling of joy.

        • Jethro

          “You will have no experiences, period, without pain. Think contrasts and opposites. You need both, to be able to sense anything at all.”

          That’s just a word game. It also requires a certain amount of anger to move into the pain you describe. We can say then we are beings who are always causing ourselves pain because we are angry. These terms come about during in-depth studies, but to the layman, we move because we desire to and know we have because of our sense of touch. Since our bodies are in a constant state of movement even in thought we are always in pain, even if we don’t now it. Just to humor you a little.

          “And, of course, why you can have the feeling of joy.”

          None of that has anything to do with “why” we have the feeling of joy.

          “Thoughts do not require anything physical”

          Thoughts require a physical action of the brain, electrical charges and chemical movement. We can also say the body is never at rest.

          Your use of the word pain has been stated in science the way you describe, but go to a hospital, tell the doctor your always angry, in pain, and can’t get any rest and see what happens.

          • Sam

            You seem a little lost. I thought you had the basic understanding. But then let’s go back to square one, and see how it goes from there.
            If light was all that was, and nothing else existed, or ever had, and there was not a place where the light wasn’t constant and absolute, and you were surrounded and bathing in it every day for all eternity, then how you know that this was light? You wouldn’t. You be literally blind. Only with the arrival of a contrast you will begin to see. You literally couldn’t see or understand light before the invention of darkness — its counterpart.
            Please tell me that you have this basic concept down. And we could move on.

          • Jethro

            Yes, I’ve heard the story of the little candle…. carry on.

          • Sam

            Well, a long story short, to be something more than absolute thought (spirit), and nothing else, a physical world — counterpart — was created. And suddenly, and for the first time, you got feedback for any thought you ever had. You could see, feel, experience, and therefore understand on a whole new level, which you in short could call: Life. You were literally coming to life. But it doesn’t come without a fee. Unfortunately. Hardship, even the opposite of love, you would need to know, standing there as the contrast for the very best feeling to emerge.

          • Patrick Gannon

            The burden of proof is on you (and Neale) to prove that thought can exist without the physical. It’s an outrageous claim with no objective evidence.

            That Walsch Kool Aid sure is tasty, isn’t it? (grin)

          • Jethro

            Well Sam in order for me to be a physical being all that had to happen was my parents to have sex. You’re forgetting that I’m a being that has no recollection of anything beyond my birth and quite honestly I don’t remember that one either.

            Let me save you some time. You’re trying to explain to me the law of experience, you cannot know happy without Sad, cannot no good without evil, cannot no pain without pleasure, and so on. But none of that means that we are living a life in pain.

          • Patrick Gannon

            You could intellectually know there was such a thing as absence of light. It’s not true that you can’t know dark without experiencing it. You know it less completely, but you can still know it and understand it at an intellectual level; your knowledge is just limited. Example:

            You could lock Mary up in a room from the time she is born, where everything is black, white and shades of gray. Even Mary’s skin could be painted white, so there was absolutely no color in the room – none. Yet Mary could study color, the physics, the frequencies, the wavelengths, everything there was to know about color. She could become the world’s expert on color.

            When you finally let Mary out of the room, it’s not that she suddenly knows color, it’s that she adds an additional level of knowledge to it – personal experience. That does’t mean color doesn’t exist for Mary till she sees it; it only means that her knowledge of color takes on a different level of understanding based on the new knowledge. When Mary learned about color, she did so by moving particles through neurons, axons, firing synapses, etc. When Mary steps outside and sees the color, the exact same thing happens – neurons and axons are activated and synapses fire. The learning is identical in how it happens. Experience is just another way of learning, and it involves the exact same method as book learning. It’s another level of knowledge, that’s all.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Sam,

      I’m someone who has lived with physical and emotional pain most of my life, but I don’t believe that pain is what life’s all about or what connects people. But, I see a difference between pain and suffering.

      Pain is one thing. You hit your thumb while hammering a nail and feel pain. This pain, given the right treatment and then not much thought after, will naturally go away. Watch children and this becomes obvious. A child receives a gift of a healing kiss and maybe a bandaid for a scraped knee, and it’s all but forgotten. Well, except maybe for bragging rights.

      Suffering is different, and optional. Suffering is thinking that’s just what you needed, was a sore thumb, when you’re not finished with the work you were doing. Suffering is thinking that, of course you hit your thumb because things always go wrong. Suffering is retelling the story of how you hit your thumb and how much it hurt.

      I believe that it’s through the understanding that we have all suffered at some point, and therefore can feel compassion for all, that is our saving grace. Relieving someone’s suffering may be the most grace-filled thing we can do because it means we’re saying that we see the other, we understand the other, and we feel compassion because of that understanding. We can point out the thoughts that continue to cause suffering, and possible solutions.

      Relieving suffering may have no effect at all on one’s pain, but pain without suffering is much more easily dealt with.

      I believe life is about experiencing this physical life.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • Sam

        Good points, having the human perspective, being a human. No, pain is not what life’s all about, but Earth is all about every kind of pain there is (including suffering). And pain is a key factor for life. Life is quite right about experiencing, but without pain you wouldn’t have any whatsoever. Which means no life. So Earth, and pain, is enabling you to experience. Fear (pain) is a “necessary evil” to bring out love. Darkness/ignorance (pain) is a “necessary evil” to bring out light/celerity. Struggle (pain) is a “necessary evil” to bring out successes. Etc. You can’t experience anything good, without its opposite (pain) being there as well. The one you really are, is good all the way through, but what you really love, is to feel it too. So, here you are. A pretty tough deal, with a lot of pain/suffering, but in the end, everyone seems to think it was all worth it. Because they do it again.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Sam,

          You and I use different terminology. I see all emotions emerging from love or fear. It appears you see pain where I see fear.

          I agree that life here is based on dichotomies, and we appreciate those experiences which benefit our purpose or move us forward on our journey when we understand their absence or opposite. However, I don’t believe we must experience that absence or opposite here, now. We can draw on past experiences; we can empathize with others who are experiencing that absence or opposite; we can use our minds to imagine that absence or opposite. In those ways we can feel gratitude for whatever benefits us or moves us forward.

          This is a core belief of mine as part of my purpose is to share my story with others so that they don’t have to experience the darkness I’ve been through themselves. They can know such darkness exists through the sharing of my experiences, which allows them to appreciate the light in their own lives.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • Sam

            “You and I use different terminology. I see all emotions emerging from love or fear. It appears you see pain where I see fear.”

            I agree that all emotions emerging from love or fear. Let’s say pain is a signal, that can trigger the emotion fear, which again, and quite easily, can lead to pain, of the suffering kind — if you let it. Glad we cleared that one up 😉

            “I agree that life here is based on dichotomies, and we appreciate those experiences which benefit our purpose or move us forward on our journey when we understand their absence or opposite.”

            We appreciate those experiences, but not all of them. If your stomach don’t turn, at the mere thought of the atrocities some people have to endure, they will think there is something wrong with you, right? I don’t think any sane human can appreciate those things, of the worst kind.

            “However, I don’t believe we must experience that absence or opposite here, now. We can draw on past experiences; we can empathize with others who are experiencing that absence or opposite; we can use our minds to imagine that absence or opposite. In those ways we can feel gratitude for whatever benefits us or moves us forward.”

            We can certainly remember, connect, imagine, and even dream, but how does this differ from here, now?

            “This is a core belief of mine as part of my purpose is to share my story with others so that they don’t have to experience the darkness I’ve been through themselves. They can know such darkness exists through the sharing of my experiences, which allows them to appreciate the light in their own lives.”

            Aren’t you afraid it could hurt me even more than it did you, depending on how fragile I am, and my state of mind? 🙂

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Sam,

            “We appreciate those experiences, but not all of them. If your stomach don’t turn, at the mere thought of the atrocities some people have to endure, they will think there is something wrong with you, right? I don’t think any sane human can appreciate those things, of the worst kind.”

            I disagree with how you took what I said. If someone is reacting to the news of atrocities, that reaction is an experience through the imagining of them. There is, therefore, no need to directly experience the atrocities in order to appreciate their opposite. Especially if one sees pictures or videos while hearing the news.

            As for “sane” people having an understanding of things “of the worst kind,” that’s a judgment that I know to be wrong through my own experiences. Not only are such atrocities much more common than what is reported, from casualties of war to child sexual abuse to slavery, but most people can imagine the worst atrocities because we’re exposed to vivid images and interviews with victims. Being able to imagine such things is what gives us an opportunity to empathize rather than making someone less than sane. I also know whereof I speak because I experienced incest, torture and brainwashing myself, among others.

            “We can certainly remember, connect, imagine, and even dream, but how does this differ from here, now?”

            It means not having to directly experience the opposite here, now.

            “Aren’t you afraid it could hurt me even more than it did you, depending on how fragile I am, and my state of mind? :)”

            Absolutely not. I trust that those who are that fragile will either avoid my story once it starts to become difficult for them or will emotionally disconnect as a natural defense mechanism. That’s been my experience this far. However, I’ve also learned most people are stronger than we assume. I haven’t met many who couldn’t handle my story, although the initial reaction may be quite strong.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

    • Patrick Gannon

      How does a “formless soul” hold any thoughts at all? Thoughts require neurons, and synapses, and connnectomes, and axions, and electrochemicals, etc. How does an immaterial soul hold a thought or memory?

      • Sam

        All good questions, and all very normal for this era. Thoughts do not require anything physical. Exactly the opposite. So, I think we disagree quite fundamentally. But you think about it 🙂

        • Patrick Gannon

          How about you think about it? Thoughts DO require something physical – a brain. Show me a thought that exists without a brain. Show me a thought that exists without neurons, axons, synapses firing, etc. Provide some explanation for how this could even be remotely possible. Explain how this immaterial thought can have any effect whatsoever on our natural world which is governed by the laws of physics, and for which no magical forces are required in order to explain anything those particles can do.

          It’s possible that machines/computers will be able to do this at some point in the future when we create a mechanical version of a brain, but there can be no thoughts without them.

          • Sam

            No, no, no. You show me a thought captured in a jar, and you would have something. Until you do, the effect of thought is all you can claim scientifically. Science, this far, has no clue where thought actually reside.
            And the laws of physics? Once again, no one actually found one, only the effect. All the laws of nature, and the thought, is to be found at the same place. Good hunting.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, no, no – YOU capture a thought in a jar. You are the one proposing that a brain is not required to produce it. Science knows the thought resides in (emerges from) the brain – even which part of the brain in some cases. Exactly how, is still debated, but that thoughts come from the brain is no longer questioned. There are no forces outside our natural world that can move around the things in your brain order to produce the thought, or we would know about them.

            What do you mean, by nobody ever found the laws of physics? The laws of physics simply are what they are in our natural world. When the effect can be reproduced every single time, without ever an exception following millions of experiments, then it is safe to use the term “law.” However, science, unlike religion (which is what this CwG stuff is) is willing to change its mind if presented with evidence. Religion never changes its mind.

          • Sam

            “YOU capture a thought in a jar”

            Me? I am not the one claiming thought to be something physical. Quite the contrary.

            “no longer questioned”

            Then this is a religion. As always, you will be in for a surprise, and the religion die.

            “our natural world”

            Tell me, how much empty space is this “natural world” of ours? Was it 99 %? Just 1% from fiction then 🙂

            “What do you mean, by nobody ever found the laws of physics?”

            Just what I said. Nobody found what makes the laws of physics happen. You say it’s magic. I say it’s actually a law, “written down”, not unlike a program, that guides it all. Not to be found in the physical world.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I have too much difficulty following your train of thought.

            You seem to be proposing that thoughts can emerge without the presence of a brain. Please demonstrate with objective evidence how and when this has ever occurred.

            We don’t know everything about our natural world, of course, but we know some things very well, and one thing we know is that there are no god, soul, consciousness or supernatural forces that have any effect whatsoever on the particles in our natural world. If these things exist, they are moot in our natural world. Since not a single exception to this has ever been demonstrated, the burden of proof is on you.

            I will be in for a surprise? When? When I die? Prove that a dead person can generate thoughts please.

            We use the term “our natural world” rather than “the universe” because we can only describe the laws of physics that exist in our part of the universe. It is highly unlikely, but possible that in other parts of the universe, different laws of physics apply. I don’t get the reference to 99%. If a Creator made our universe why such a huge waste of space, and it surely can’t have been created with life as the intention given that nearly all of it (more than 99% is instantly deadly to life as we know it).

            Hmm, “nobody found what makes the laws of physics happen.” I’m not sure that’s the correct terminology. The laws of physics apparently came out of the Big Bang. Other laws of physics were and are possible, but many of them would not have resulted in universes, or at least not like ours. I didn’t say anything about the laws of physics existing because of magic. I don’t know where you are going with that. You say it’s a written law? Can you get me a copy? Oh, it’s not found in the physical world (natural world), so how do you know it exists?

          • Sam

            “and one thing we know is that there are no god, soul, consciousness or supernatural forces that have any effect whatsoever on the particles in our natural world.”

            There are no such “we”, more than those other “we”, that see it differently.

            “the burden of proof is on you.”

            You have it all wrong. Why would I want to convince you? The fact that you do not know, has been the whole point. Until you will stumble upon it anyway. What I say to you, and what you have heard from others as well, is just to remind you. In case you have come to a stage where you are receptive, and things will click into place.

            “I will be in for a surprise? When? When I die?”

            Sure, why not.

            “I don’t get the reference to 99%. If a Creator made our universe why such a huge waste of space.”

            I was aiming at matter as empty space as well. Well, at least 99 % of it. One percent from it all being an illusion. One percent from matter not being matter. For your sake, let’s hope the last percent will stay, and not likewise be proven away. Then what will you have, if you don’t understand it already?

            “Oh, it’s not found in the physical world (natural world), so how do you know it exists?”

            Because perfect interactions demand it — if you so only have logic to help you. A perfect clockwork out of randomness, repeating itself even, is impossible.

  • I’m of course loving & enjoying reading CwG book 4. I perked uP when I read this as it’s a practice I’ve been doing for several years.

    The dialog is talking about what HEB’s do if they entertain what would be a thought they would not like to manifest.

    “If they have any fleeting negative idea at all, they don’t give it a second thought.
    After a while of doing this, they’ve trained their mind never to consider for more than a nanosecond any thoughts that they do no wish to see begin to take shape in their reality. They just don’t hold onto them. They let them go immediately, and move to a new and more positive thought.”

    “You might call this a New Thought Movement, and you could join in groups that choose to engage in this very practice.” P. 96.

    I know of no such groups yet, & very very, very few who even engage in this kind of practice & reprogramming of ones thinking.

    What I’ve noticed myself by being engaged in this activity is that sometimes, I will realize that I had a negative thought anywhere from 10 minutes to maybe 45 minutes ago. It’s fascinating to recall & remember it, & what I do is say this in my mind. “Not on my watch, not in my experience.”

    That’s my share as far as my current way of dealing or handling such unwanted thoughts.

    • Sam

      What I find fascinating, is where those negative thoughts/ideas come from in the first place. And we can compare it to Cupid, this cute figure shooting arrows of love. Only in this case someone, or something, is shooting arrows of negativity. Those thoughts are certainly not coming from me. Sometimes it can even be a hailstorm. A solid roof can keep you safe, so you don’t get hurt. Or if you are of the sporting kind, take out your tennis racket, and bounce them back. Could even be fun. Still, what I find most fascinating, is how God made this law of raining negativity, to hurt you, and to deal with every day. I think the most important thing is not to blame oneself. We are quite literally under fire, walking this earth, from all the laws of nature wanting to hurt us.

      • Thanks for your comments Sam. I don’t concern myself where these negative thoughts come from. I just notice that if I have them, I have a choice in keeping or changing them.

        • Sam

          Aha, as long as you don’t suppresses em. In my case, I need to see right through them, for what they are, and so they can simply disintegrate. The method you use wouldn’t have worked for me, unfortunately. I prefer “the scientific way; to get to the bottom of things. But that’s me, of course.

          • Your are correct Sam, do not suppress or ignore, simply change & re-create. How you do that is up to you.

        • mewabe

          The way I see it, I think it is extremely important to understand where negativity originates, as one of the crucial means of spiritual advancement is self-knowledge. We can run from and escape almost anything, except ourselves…wherever we go (mentally, emotionally, psychologically or physically), and however we get there, here we are!

          How can we heal without self knowledge, without knowing the cause, the source of negativity? By treating the symptoms, which are negative thoughts and feelings? It is my understanding and experience that when the original cause is understood, when the root has been uprooted, negativity is no longer…there is nothing but peace, neutrality and openness, and we respond in full accordance with a present situation according to our true nature, not from the distorted lenses of past experiences and future expectations grounded in past experiences.

          That’s my way…everyone is different, and there is more than one way to get to wherever we are going.

          • So where do you think negativity comes from?

            We could say culture, media, television, society etc. To me it’s not important where they come from or originate, but what & how we deal with them when they come uP. It is my experience that most people simply allow negative thoughts to swim past into the unconscious. Some have powerful emotional impact to them & grow, others are so small as not to be of any great consequence.

            I get when certain issues come from childhood or adult trama etc.

            Negativity is not the devil, it’s another divine tool to allow us clarity on what we desire & even allows us motivation to change. If new age has a devil it’s not negativity (though I can get how you might consider that). For me, however, the new age or metaphysical devil would be the ego. Nothing wrong with the ego either, except when it runs amuck. Many spiritual people can blame the ego for their problems.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Marko, remember we were talking recently about the book, “Stealing Fire?” The author proposes that the brain gets stuck in a rut. These various things that he refers to as flow, which can come from meditation, hallucinogenics, extreme sports, bio and neuro-feedback, etc. break the patterns in the brain and allow it to make newer, better, more efficient pathways, and in so doing, remove or minimize negativity. Teaching soldiers with PTSD how to surf has completely healed some of them. Cannabis has helped many. A dose of psilocybin has helped people get over their fear of death and dying.

            It’s all in the brain.

          • I love the concept of flow, I love understanding the brain more & how we can take positive advantage of it. You are comfortable to believe it’s all brain & nothing beyond it. I feel there is more.

          • mewabe

            First of all we would have to define negativity in order to have a better discussion. At the most basic level, it seems that what people call negativity is all that causes pain or discomfort, and what they call positive is all that causes ease and pleasure.

            Since you asked, this is how I see it:

            Negativity that is outside of us (such as that originating from the media) cannot affect us unless it also reflects our inner negativity…otherwise it has nothing to “attach” itself to us, and glides over us. It does not go into the unconscious unless it comes through subliminally, or unless a person is somewhat hypnotized by what she hears or watches, and her neocortex becomes dormant.

            For example, when the media tells us to fear something or hate someone, it cannot affect us unless there is already fear and hate within us. When the media tells us to fear terrorism, against all rational thoughts, it simply triggers existing inner fears. Another example would be watching a boxing match or any other form of fight between two individuals or more: a psychologically healthy, non negative individual would feel compassion for the people involved and wish them to end the fighting…while a person who carries negativity (such as anger or rage) within himself would get excited at the sight of such a fight, encourage it, yell and scream and wish he could get into the melee (which is what boxing audiences do).

            Outer negativity that affects us is consequently a wake up call to look at our inner negativity…and what needs healing within us. It is as a perfect mirror, and a great tool for self-knowledge and insight (literally in sight, which is what self-knowledge is about).

            The problem is what most people do not want to look in the mirror, because they judge what they see…they consequently close the door on themselves, and run as fast as they can from their inner self, while projecting their inner negativity on others and the world.

            Again, a person who is clear of all inner negativity cannot be affected by anything negative coming at him or her from the outside (all negativity is then understood through compassion rather than fear)…but you don’t get there by controlling your thoughts and emotions…on the contrary, you get there by becoming fully conscious, which means diving completely into your own unconscious, and letting the conscious and unconscious become fully integrated. This is true healing.

            By the way, the meaning of yoga is union…integration. This is the way of all spiritual paths.

          • Well thanks for this in depth answer. You still didn’t answer the origin of negativity. Which is fine. Not a real issue of mine. You bring up so many points that I’m just not going to touch any of them at this time.

            I’m quite sure they will come up one way or another in other discussions, so not a problem of addressing them, just at another time.

            I don’t remember saying anything about yoga, but I’ll be doing a class shortly. Smiles, -M

          • mewabe

            The origin of negativity comes from judgment, which is a mental process…it comes from the mind. It does not come from “God”.

            Emotions and feelings such as anger, fear, pain, etc, need not be judged…only felt, fully expressed and quickly released. When they are not released they accumulate, like steam in a pressure cooker. When they accumulate, they are feared, because a person can no longer trust herself to respond realistically and legitimately to any given situation. And when they are feared, they are judged, and become “negativity”.

            They are then kept even more suppressed in a never ending vicious circle, and are projected on the outside world and on other people, engendering intolerance, dogmatism, repression, authoritarianism, violence and all the other social ills that come from fear and judgement.

            It’s a very simple process once you understand it…and easy to heal without having to exercise any form of thought control whatsoever, on the contrary!

          • I agree with feeling your feelings good & bad. As for the negative as we judge them, give them a voice to be heard, then they are free to go.

            I’m perfectly fine when random negative thoughts come in small doses & simply say “Not on my watch, not in my experience.” Larger more emotionally potent ones are felt as long as needed & I let them go. If they return, rinse & repeat.

            This is my general practice. Inspiration & growth will always lead to more refinement.

          • mewabe

            Agreed…but experience usually shows that the more we feel, express and release our feelings, the less negative thoughts come up, until none do. Negative thoughts usually come from suppressed feelings, and that’s how negative thoughts are also a tool for self-knowledge and inner healing. Rather than ignoring them, we can ride them all the way to their source, which is usually a feeling that is stuck within us.

          • Thanks for clearing up your perspective on it, it’s appreciated.

          • Sam

            “The origin of negativity comes from judgment, which is a mental process…it comes from the mind. It does not come from “God”.”

            I searched my mind. It didn’t originate from there. It was a “swarm of bees” from outside passing by. And why even HEB’s can’t stop them from appearing. This knowledge sets you free. Self-blame and self-judgement is no longer an option.

          • mewabe

            As long as this process works for you, that’s great! Have at it hoss!
            I have a totally different process, which worked for me…the outcome: no negative thoughts…Imagine that!
            By the way, self-knowledge, or the process of understanding the inner origins of your thoughts and feelings, has absolutely nothing to do with self-blame or self-judgment.
            As a side issue…have you personally spoken to a so-called “HEB”, or are you relying on hearsay?

          • Sam

            “I have a totally different process, which worked for me…the outcome: no negative thoughts…Imagine that!”

            To not have negative thoughts is normal, but not in every living moment. Then you talk “nirvana”. Which I don’t think you could pull off convincing us.

            “By the way, self-knowledge, or the process of understanding the inner origins of your thoughts and feelings, has absolutely nothing to do with self-blame or self-judgment.”

            Who you really are, is absolute light/love. And I mean absolute. Anything short, and it’s not you. Anything less, and it’s not actually real. Any obstacle/darkness, is an illusion put in place, for you to go at, and so feel alive.
            A negative thought, is certainly not you, or from you. Or you would say you are not all light/love after all. Which is fine for the ever ongoing struggle, and dance, in the making of life. But if you want out, the only exit, is to see you for who you really are, and what you absolutely is not.

            “As a side issue…have you personally spoken to a so-called “HEB”, or are you relying on hearsay?”

            Something tells me they are real, and I don’t think they speak, like the crude us, but telepathically. I have a pretty good feeling about that 🙂 But also with the use of reason alone. Life on other planets and dimensions is every day getting more support as an ever more likely possibility. And what you think we be ourselves in like 2000 years from now, or so? Pretty advanced, don’t you think? When we can absolutely become HEB’s ourselves, with time, then why not already with someone else, beyond ours, at the moment, limited reach? Even with logic alone, this is already a reasonable assumption to have on the table.

          • mewabe

            Sam, I am going to pass…and not respond. I sense in you a strong desire to be right, and I will grant you your wish. You are right as long as your thoughts and beliefs work for you. When they no longer do because you have expanded your knowledge a little more, you will change them and be right again. You cannot avoid being right…so be happy with that!

          • Sam

            I think you sense yourself, and that’s quite alright 🙂

          • Jethro

            You posted, “What I find fascinating, is where those negative thoughts/ideas come from in the first place. And we can compare it to Cupid, this cute figure shooting arrows of love. Only in this case someone, or something, is shooting arrows of negativity. Those thoughts are certainly not coming from me.”

            Thoughts and ideas by their very nature are a product of the mind, regardless of how we have judged them. We can judge them as negative or positive but they are a product of the mind.

            Maybe you can re-elaborate. Where do you believe negative thoughts come from when the thought is coming from your own thought process? In your analogy, Cupid is the source and the arrows are negative thoughts. The very idea that a thought is negative, is a product of your own thoughts about it. What or who is cupid in your analogy?

            You also posted, “I searched my mind. It didn’t originate from there. It was a “swarm of bees” from outside passing by. And why even HEB’s can’t stop them from appearing. This knowledge sets you free. Self-blame and self-judgement is no longer an option.”

            You use a swarm of bee’s in your analogy, It is again another source of negativity rather than your own thoughts of it, what does the swarm of bee’s represent? The comment about HEB’s is fairly unclear, so are you saying that HEB’s cannot remove negative thoughts anymore than anyone else? How does that knowledge set us free? And how does it remove self-blame and self judgement?

          • Sam

            “Thoughts and ideas by their very nature are a product of the mind, regardless of how we have judged them. We can judge them as negative or positive but they are a product of the mind.”

            Fear and love are not coming from the same mind. Fear is an illusion only achievable wearing a human body, using its physical and restricted mind. I have no fears without this avatar. And the avatar is not me, just an advanced suit.
            Regardless, you will have negative thoughts coming at you in a physical body, by design. But altogether harmless, unless you decide to hold on to them. It can be just like sneezing, just as refreshing and short, having you smile, and then thank you and goodbye.

            “The very idea that a thought is negative, is a product of your own thoughts about it.”

            It can sometimes take a while, but your real mind/soul will shine through and “tell you”; eureka. Compared to love, a negative thought is not.

            “What or who is cupid in your analogy?” […] “You use a swarm of bee’s in your analogy, It is again another source of negativity rather than your own thoughts of it, what does the swarm of bee’s represent?”

            The laws of nature. It will regardless hail/sting, for you to deal with.

            “The comment about HEB’s is fairly unclear, so are you saying that HEB’s cannot remove negative thoughts anymore than anyone else?”

            Exactly. The laws of nature apply to them as well. Just got pretty good at dealing with it.

            “How does that knowledge set us free? And how does it remove self-blame and self judgement?”

            You are not your body, or its limited mind. You are not the source of any negativity. If you don’t believe me, you will take this on yourself, and be the prison you never can escape from — being “sinful” no matter what, holding you down, never to reach your full potential.

          • Jethro

            “Fear and love are not coming from the same mind.”
            Fear and love exist in all minds, unless your definition of mind is different. the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

            “I have no fears without this avatar. And the avatar is not me, just an advanced suit.”
            I have not in my life been without my human body or human brain so I have no way to experience being without any human feeling or thought.

            “Regardless, you will have negative thoughts coming at you in a physical body, by design.”
            By design I must recognize that all judgement and thoughts are my own, coming from within. I can only fear or have negative thoughts when I become aware of something that I see as negative or have a fear of. In any case I am the inventor, It’s not imposed on me, it’s created by me.

            (((“The very idea that a thought is negative, is a product of your own thoughts about it.”

            It can sometimes take a while, but your real mind/soul will shine through and “tell you”; eureka. Compared to love, a negative thought is not.)))
            I can’t understand what you said here exactly but I’ll try. In time we can change the way we think about something, and that would take time, but we still have to deal with the fact that we create the judgement about something, and recognize it needs change. We decide if it is love or fear, positive or negative. We decide if it needs to change or not.

            (((“What or who is cupid in your analogy?” […] “You use a swarm of bee’s in your analogy, It is again another source of negativity rather than your own thoughts of it, what does the swarm of bee’s represent?”

            The laws of nature. It will regardless hail/sting, for you to deal with.)))
            Nature does not create negativity any more than it creates beauty. The individual creates that. Beauty is the judgement of the beholder, Negative thoughts are the judgement of the thinker.

            (((“The comment about HEB’s is fairly unclear, so are you saying that HEB’s cannot remove negative thoughts anymore than anyone else?”

            Exactly. The laws of nature apply to them as well. Just got pretty good at dealing with it.)))
            You didn’t mention how. How do they deal with it? Does a HEB have a human body? I would think that a Highly evolved being would have highly evolved bodies and brains. Wouldn’t they be evolved enough that “dealing with it” has been surpassed?

            “You are not your body, or its limited mind. You are not the source of any negativity. If you don’t believe me, you will take this on yourself, and be the prison you never can escape from — being “sinful” no matter what, holding you down, never to reach your full potential.”
            I have had this body and this limited mind, which is actually only limited by my own thoughts about anything, since conception. The prison you mention is a prison of our own design. It does not have to be a prison. We are in that prison by choice and can break out of that prison by changing our thoughts about it. If I have to decide “I am In” anything, I have to believe I am in school. A place of learning, constantly. Ideas i have about anything may be changed in the next moment or remain the same for years, It’s for me to decide. As I decide, I’m honest enough with myself to know, I do it all, in this human body, using my human brain, using human judgement made up by my human experience.

          • Sam

            “unless your definition of mind is different.”

            Yes, different from yours, and as explained.

            “I have not in my life been without my human body or human brain so I have no way to experience being without any human feeling or thought.”

            Still, you can imagine, from me telling about it.

            “By design I must recognize that all judgement and thoughts are my own, coming from within.”

            Not a must, but a choice. The notion that negative thoughts are yours, is the same as born in sin. Change it, is my advice.

            “I can only fear or have negative thoughts when I become aware of something that I see as negative or have a fear of. In any case I am the inventor, It’s not imposed on me, it’s created by me.”

            Fear is from your body. You are not your body. But if you want to think so, I do not mind. You come around.

            “I can’t understand what you said here exactly but I’ll try. In time we can change the way we think about something, and that would take time, but we still have to deal with the fact that we create the judgement about something, and recognize it needs change. We decide if it is love or fear, positive or negative. We decide if it needs to change or not.”

            You are in a labyrinth walking, and you are stuck and cold. Then suddenly you find an open door. Inside you see all kinds of comfort. Do you really think this is about choice? It’s only about discovering; the choice between fear or love is: of course.

            “Nature does not create negativity any more than it creates beauty. The individual creates that. Beauty is the judgement of the beholder, Negative thoughts are the judgement of the thinker.”

            Nature, which includes your body, is designed for the experience of cold and warm, night and day, good food and rotten, etc. The diversity, and the uniqueness of everyone, do not take away the fundament it all stands on, which purpose is to have you feel love/good in the contrast of fear/bad.

            “You didn’t mention how. How do they deal with it? Does a HEB have a human body? I would think that a Highly evolved being would have highly evolved bodies and brains. Wouldn’t they be evolved enough that “dealing with it” has been surpassed?”

            I am sure I mention it. The best way to deal with negative thoughts, is not to hang on to them, but let them pass by, which can go as fast as the blink of the eye, given that one practiced this to perfection; recognizing them for what they are. That should be how. There is no point in a body without the feeling of bad, once in awhile.

            “I have had this body and this limited mind, which is actually only limited by my own thoughts about anything, since conception. The prison you mention is a prison of our own design. It does not have to be a prison. We are in that prison by choice and can break out of that prison by changing our thoughts about it. If I have to decide “I am In” anything, I have to believe I am in school. A place of learning, constantly. Ideas i have about anything may be changed in the next moment or remain the same for years, It’s for me to decide. As I decide, I’m honest enough with myself to know, I do it all, in this human body, using my human brain, using human judgement made up by my human experience.”

            And then coming to a point of realization, that we are something way more than just humans. And also, that this long walk of ours, over many lives, was just for the walk itself. But, that’s only my assertion, of course 😉

          • Rainbow Shell

            I think Jethro’s last three questions, not necessarily directed to Sam, but just in general are really good ones. Neale’s latest book says that there are both HEB’s trying to help us on earth as well as advanced civilizations which do not have humanitys best interest at heart. In his book, God said to Neale that these HEB’s are trying to help awaken mankind to the negative influence of these advanced civilizations by hovering around us, by sending thoughts “implants” and by acting through this physical plane. Thought is quantum. It is evident,if we look at the news today, that we aren’t exactly in heaven. If we are aware, then we know advanced civilizations, dare we call them aliens never, act through the physical earth. As Neale said, there have been enough sitings to not really question their liklihood of existing. Therefore, how do we distinguish between the good HEB’s and the negative advanced civilizations? If the HEB’s can’t do it, we have to somehow bridge the gap and become aware of the advanced methods of entering our not so closed system, Earth. So, how are we to help HEB’s help lift the earth

          • Patrick Gannon

            I have not purchased Neale’s book. Can you tell me what evidence he provided for these HEBs and the advanced civilizations that do not have our best interest at heart? Is there any evidence for these things other than his chat with the Big Guy?

            These HEBs are sending thought “implants” and acting through the physical plane. Does Neale expend any ink explaining how this takes place, given that if it really does, it means that all our laws of physics are completely debunked, and therefore we must be living in some sort of simulation? If these HEBs or advanced civilizations are working in our physical world, they have to be physical, or they are moot. Where are they? Show me one.

            “Thought is quantum?” Please elucidate further. “a quantum (plural: quanta) is the minimum amount of any physical entity involved in an interaction. The fundamental notion that a physical property may be “quantized” is referred to as “the hypothesis of quantization”. So you are saying that thought is comprised of particles – physical entities? In this you would be agreeing with those who say consciousness emerges from the brain. The brain is matter, and you are saying thought is matter. There is no “matter” floating around our heads, so the only place this “matter” can reside is in our brains. I don’t think that’s what you really believe, and if you understood more about quantum mechanics, I don’t think you’d use that term because it works against your argument, because it implies “matter” and you guys don’t believe gods, souls, consciousness and other magic forces have anything to do with matter. New Agers just like the sound of the word. They figure since consciousness is hard, and QM is hard, they must somehow be related; sorry but this is not the case. The brain might use quantum computing – that’s an interesting and debated possibility, but it still has to do with matter – physical particles that obey the laws of physics every single time they are tested.

            Neale suggests there have been enough sightings to not really question their likelihood of existing – I disagree. Actually, with the explosive growth of cameras everywhere – everyone has a digital camera these days, often with pretty good quality – yet where are all the UFOs? With all these people having cameras, there should be more evidence, not less. The greater our ability to identify and document such things, the rarer they become, because then we’re relying on objective, rather than subjective evidence.

            Aliens are certainly possible, but to interact with our physical world, they will have to be able to manipulate and affect our particles, and if they could do that, we would be able to observe and measure the effect of the forces they are exerting – and there are no such forces. Further, the probabilities provided by quantum mechanics say the likelihood that there are such forces is so low as to be dismissed. Quantum woo has blown up in Deepak Chopra’s face – we understand a lot more of it now, and it’s not something that supports the woo-meisters, it supports our core theory of the laws of physics, and confirms that these laws are correct to amazing degrees of reliability. You might notice that Deepak (and Neale) have largely abandoned quantum woo in the last year or two.

            Why do I get the feeling that Neale decided he needed to beef up his retirement plan? A lot of religious people debate scientists and I give Chopra credit for being willing to be publicly humiliated for his lack of knowledge in public. I would like to see Neale debate Sean Carroll for example. Those who make outrageous claims must provide evidence to support them, and these are certainly outrageous claims – so where’s the evidence? Psst.. I have some unicorn’s for sale – special prices on the pink ones. I’ll make you a deal! You can trust me.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I am convinced that Neale speaks an authentic dialogue with the big kahuna. If you don’t believe it is authentic, then you won’t believe in much of what I have to say, and I can’t debate on every point you raise here. I can only say what I believe. Take it with a grain of salt. Believe or don’t believe. I’m not here to convince anyone. I am only on earth to help the Big Guy help the Big Guy.

            I believe that science is not fixed in stone. It moves. It breathes with our changing awareness. We certainly have not exhausted human ingenuity yet in that field of quantum physics. There is much to discover. Science and spirituality and art are not exclusive. They can and do cross planes.

            There have been enough instances of out of body travel (ie monroe institute) that show such “thought” experiences are indeed vivid in a physical way; near death experiences and so on show where thought alone impacts the brain, synapses, breathing level and awareness. The government even hires remote viewers, so is the brain physical–yes.

            Yet, we, in my belief, are more than a physical brain. We are actually beyond physical brain or we wouldn’t be impacted by music, for instance. Music is more than sound Wallace Stevens said, and wow was he right. Music is feeling, too. Thought can be music and Music is sound and creates feeling, too, and sound is quantum. That is proven in modern quantum physics. If sound is harmonius and harmonic then we approach a better way of cohabitating on earth as all life in a relative universe where we have both the good, the bad and the ugly, as well as in an Absolute universe where only All Love resides. That would be heaven.

            If we are impacted by both HEB’s and negative advanced civilizations, the sound is disharmonius and cacophonous, and we can’t be sure of what we are hearing at all as we swirl the galaxies during meditation. In fact, some thought, some cacophony could be from advanced civilizations that don’t have our best interest at heart.

            The real deal is we are aware that aliens have traveled to earth, in my view. NASA scientists on CNN announced we are only decades from declaring this not only a possibility but a fact. I concur, but you don’t have to believe in the possibility of other life forms visiting earth in whatever shape or form they come through whatever wormhole they find. Aliens have been written about in books by some government officials even. There have been enough remote viewers hired by those in charge suggesting that we are a more advanced culture to be aware of such measures to help raise the level of harmonious music reverberating from earth.

            I also believe, and concur with Neale’s book, in the unfortunate belief that these negative advanced civilizations impact earth in a very physical manner. Ie. through toxins, poisons in our environment which enter into the waterways (eerie canal for instance) and into the rivers and basiins and food sources. This creates turmoil–feast, famine, war, the great dust bowl, hurricanes, tornadoes, the ice age.

            What do we do to become more aware and raise the awareness in others that such impacts are indeed happening, and how do we counter the negativity, when as Jethro suggested HEB’s don’t engage in negative thought. How do we bridge the gap between the high acting and the low acting swing of the universes before the chaotic node collides in . . .? Is there a way to swing all into a high love gear? That’s the big question today.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Just an addition: some astrobiologist, Frank Drake, did a lot of funded research into the alien radio transmissions. It’s a fascinating article in National Geographic. Also, sound of quantum vacuum is discussed in a very recent study at Niels Bohr Institute with more facts than I can go into but all are showing life that there is more, Horatio, than we ever dreamt possible 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            For some reason, your previous comment which I got in email, is marked “awaiting moderation” so I can’t respond to it. However I’ll make a couple points.

            You said, “I believe that science is not fixed in stone.” Science is a process, and those processes are pretty much set in stone, otherwise we couldn’t trust the output. What processes are in place to support “belief?”

            I don’t think you are up to date on the research. Sure, the military tried all those techniques, and gave them up as futile. The Monroe Institute never provided compelling, objective evidence, though indeed the subjective evidence has been quite interesting at times. TMI recently sold off their products division, the hemi-sync technology where it will be used for things that are real, like meditation and mindfulness training devoid of gods and afterlives.

            You suggest that if consciousness emerged from the brain we couldn’t enjoy music, art, etc., but damage the brain of a patient and they are unable to enjoy those things.

            I will agree that aliens, who may have visited us, are far more probable than souls, gods and afterlives. I seriously doubt any aliens who show up are going to illustrate that our core theory is wrong, but hopefully they would add to our knowledge. However, until we are presented with compelling, objective evidence fully vetted and confirmed by the scientific process, we simply don’t know.

            I don’t think there is a way to swing into “high love gear” as you mentioned, other than by the slow painful process of evolution – or perhaps at a faster pace through genetic engineering; but would that mean the end of our evolution? If we no longer struggle, how do we continue to evolve?

            I’m not sure what the reference to Drake and quantum vacuum have to do with the issue of how these immaterial things affect the particles in our natural world, but I’m familiar with the “Drake Equation” and some of his thoughts on aliens. Aliens are possible, even probable; but gods and souls…. not so much.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Thank you, Patrick. I am glad you were able to read it, if only by email. Now to address what you write. I strongly believe that science is a living breathing thing. That is why I love it so. It’s like life. It grows with awareness. If science were set in stone, let us just say earth would be considered flat and we would all be seeking leaches to blood us and smelling sauce for fainting illness for the ladies and all kinds of relative weirdness and basing our future upon these relative untruths, so no. I must beg to differ with your belief that science is set in stone.

            A good scientist will heartily disagree with that idea. I think you will agree that the most exciting thing about science is its characteristic of requiring continuously new updates, new information in a plethora of knowledge and ever growing sort of era. Science, to be of genius science, requires constant updates and rechecks with each new discovery that pertains to itself. It requires new research and rediscovery for anything that might be new or anything that might be an offshoot that’s important to the stem body of the initial discovery, so all of this in and of itself sort of disproves the notion that science is set in a stone. I mean of all things considered what we love most about science is its innate quality of innate changeability. If science is anything, it’s discovery and a willingness to act on a hunch, a hypothesis an old discovery.

            If science is something, it is changeable , and I will say that we work with a model that is more liquid than solid 🙂 what I mean by this is science has ideas that are somewhat malleable, as we consider ramifications of hypotheses put forth. Granted the shift of ideas may occur a little more slowly than a speeding spaceship, for instance, unless we have on our hands an einstein who is lightyears ahead of others. And, in that case you find you’re zipping through faster than the speed of sound, travelling through meteorites in a eureka moment of a new invention, a new field to play in for another couple million years or so. Madame Curie comes to mind. Discoverer of benzene ring dreamt that ring structure one night, so ingenuity in genius moments of genius scientists is key as to lightning bolt rapid fire awareness and growth of science. As we know, science can have a sudden aha moment and advance awareness who are genius and thinking on certain problems of the universe can and will move our awareness a gazillion yearz in a blink of an eye. It just takes willingness to shift a stone thought. Too much rigidity does not a good thinker make. Anyway, I do agree we have to sort of hypothosize and yet we have to be wiling to drop those hypotheses like yesterday’s underwear. What a metaphor 🙂 Anyhoo, I must move on but appreciate your good points.

            You ask this one and it is worth wondering about: “What processes are in place to support belief?” This might require a new discovery of a new chemical and a full dissertation to fully address the implications of that question, however, so I will only ponder for a brief moment and do my best. hmmm Wow that is a damn good question. . . Belief. What is it? how do we measure it. Mind. `Is it a thought? What is it? Do we really know what mind is. Even in field of psychology, I don’t think we are quite there yet. We know the ins and outs of physical brain, but can’t quite define Mind and Space of Mind. Our bodies are mostly water and empty space so God and Mind are not easily grasped and quantified with old ideas. How do we know them? How do we measure these and all that requires in even setting up an experiment or a willingness to even hypothesize about the thought that there is a necessity for an experiment on how to quantify, measure, define Mind versus brain, focused thought versus random flying thought and so on? At some point, faith which comes into play even for the scientist is important. A scientist has to have faith that his or her hypothesis might be true. In order to at least set up shop, we have to agree on a couple of suppositions from the start. The rest can be had from feeling and heart and ingenuity and future experiments based on findings and so on.

            But, how to measure a belief. I was thinking this thought actually the other day. Does thought have something measurable? As far as you can imagine outer, our universe can go inner. Suffice it to say a molecule can get infinitesimally smaller and smaller, opening to tinier and tinier, grander and grander spaces for scientists to make, more mindsweeping discoveries than the atom, a quark or a neuron or the discovery of hydrogen even. The quantum vacuum article I mentioned appeals to me because of this question about how to measure the tiniest thing we know, sound?. Scientists are actually measuring the sound of a quantum vacuum. Okay? This is big to me, and I think this means we are getting there. I don’t know. I am digressing but I still think it is related.

            Thanks for the thoughts that are worth pondering. You also mention genetic engineering and ask how “immaterial things affect the particles in our natural world.” who would have guessed that MIT would come up with a model in a computer chip thing, so tiny. . .oh my. . it’s amazing to me, but this little chip has compartments containing every process chemical and neurological necessary to reproduce a menstrual cycle and egg. Granted, it was a rat egg that dropped in 14 days from the chip but still rats are smart and what’s next is anybody’s grandest wonder. `This was just released this week and several major colleges were in on this unique plastic looking tiny compartmentalized chip. The possibilities of cloning human in a full throttle fashionn are here already. We have robots among us now I mean that can operate everything in our world.

            Drake’s equation is fascinating in its pondering of possible worlds circulating about a moon habitable to life forms in a nearby galaxy, but when we consider possible worlds circulating about a tiny tiny tiniest particle then we are expanding awareness at even faster rate of expansion. I’ll have to reread the article.

            Thanks again for the conversation.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Once again, Rainbow Shell, I see the email version of your post, but nothing appears here yet. You expended a lot of words, but missed the main point. Science is “the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.” It is a process, and the process has to be followed or the whole discipline would be useless.

            Now what comes out of that process certainly contributes to changing what we understand about our natural world, based on new information, which as you pointed out, is frequently updating information that came before.

            However this is not the case in the core theory that covers the laws of physics. They are no longer updated, no longer improved; no longer questioned. Surely there is much we know, but scientists are confident that the results provided by the scientific process can be taken as “gospel” (which is a lousy word, given one surely can’t trust the Christian gospels!!!)

            The truth is, we agree on just about everything you said about the results of science and scientists themselves, but people lose track of the fact that science is a process, and the process must be followed; and the fact that it is, contributes to all the wonderful stuff you discussed in your (currently missing) post.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I don’t know what’s going on about the posts that come up when I click send. They post for a minute or two and then I find a message on my disque that they await moderation. Some are detected as spam. I am grateful some are getting through. I sent messages to Mewabe and to you and those are still missing in action. At any rate, I guess I could pull up my message and quote me again, but I don’t feel like it. II am going to wing it and let it fly off of my moccasin feathers. I grew a few when the car hit me. That’s true. I did really later discover two brown feathers had appeared on my moccasin after the car hit me. That’s just an interesting aside note. Perhaps,, some won’t believe that, but it really did happen. Just a note from up above back to me is how I interpret my two feathers. Back to your post.

            Your definition of Science is important. It is “the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.” Okay. That is true. However, we might need to further inquire into more here. I believe that the variable here in this fixed definition is nature itself, the physical world itself. If we are aware that HEB’s are impacting our physical plane and possible the bad guy aliens, too, then we must know that we have to update our awareness, the definition of what is physicality, what is nature itself. In other words, our natural world requires new physical laws to constantly be reevaluated.So your idea that the core theory or laws of physics can never be updated is something I don’t believe.This has big implications, as we expand our awareness of the ever expanding natural world, then we must expand the laws of physics and our view of nature itself.

          • “Therefore, how do we distinguish between the good HEB’s and the negative advanced civilizations?”

            By feeling. The law of attraction is in play here too. We attract what we most give out vibrationally. The vast majority of the earth collective desires good.

            As I understood the book, they are here to protect us from nefarious outsiders, but we still have free will in the choices we make for good or ill. They are here in part to allow us to develop with out negative outside influence.

            I’ll look closer at this as I re-read it.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I think so. We feel the energy. We can view as we meditate and feel the energy even, but HEB’s that attract others with our best interest conglomerate and that old law of attraction will surely help raise the bar. I haven’t finished the book, but it’s a page burner. My laptop lost a battery or I would have finished it that first evening. i love the questions Neale asked, especially that about whether God has desire. I think it’s true. God is preferring to be a High gear in acting through all planes that act through all levels of awareness for the betterment of our physical plane. I believe All Life as Love is with us, assuming we act with our Highest intent. It takes a heck of a lot of practice, but I’m learning as I go 🙂 I can’t wait to finish the book. I look forward to more dialogues. I hope he continues asking more questions like the ones in this book. These were most important, and it appears to me that we are at a critical juncture in Earth’s history, so it is a timely work indeed.

          • mewabe

            I understand Neale’s points about good and bad aliens, and this is not new information by any means. It is also fairly obvious that if aliens do exist, some would be “good” (helpful and having good intentions) and some would be “bad” (predatory and destructive), just as with any other living creatures.

            However, I would be cautious about this…not to attach too much importance on such concepts. Otherwise we are simply perpetuating a recycled version of the old religious beliefs in angels and demons. And by doing so we are once again disempowering ourselves as a specie and placing the power outside of us, in these alien creatures who, being more technologically advanced and more evolved in the case of “HEB’s”, are thought to have more power than we do.

            It is like those who are waiting for the true “messiah” (Jews) or for the “second coming” (Christians)…defining themselves to be helpless and powerless, and waiting for “salvation” from outside. That’s a very dangerous attitude…an open invitation to betrayal by an outside source, because the sheep has already betrayed itself waiting for a shepherd!

            The power is within us…not “out there”! Everything is within us…the seeds of our own destruction are within, as are the seeds of our own liberation. Life merely responds to our choice of focus, as feedback.

          • Jethro

            Yes Mewabe, that is totally correct. Angels and demons are us, God is us. I have had this belief for a long time. They were entities used to describe parts of us such as bad habits and poor thoughts. There was a terrible misunderstanding which had witches burning at the stake and so on. Even Neale will tell you we are God.

          • mewabe

            Thanks Jethro I agree! Humanity projects its inner mind on the world and on others all the time. That’s why I write so much about self knowledge…the more conscious we become (through knowing ourselves and the origins of our thoughts, beliefs and feelings), the less we have a compulsion to project our inner reality (unconscious) on the outer…and then we can more easily see the world for what it is (although still from a subjective, individual perspective), rather than through a distorted lens of projection.

            “Demons” are simply the feared negative elements of the unconscious.

            Many people have a tendency to place the power outside of themselves. That’s what many “conspiracy theories” are about as well…from “reptilian aliens” to the “illuminati”. Even when negative elements do exist and are at play, they have no power unless we grant them such power through our thoughts and fears.

            If you ever meet the “devil”, give him a big, heartfelt hug…that’s what he needs the most, and what will disarm him the most!

          • Jethro

            Okie dokie, hugs delivered! Glad my wife was looking the other way, she understands self love, but hugging ones self always looks silly. The devil represents the Sum of all undesirable human desires, being a desirable human I…. Being a human with desires would simply mean the devil is within not outside working it’s way in.

          • mewabe

            I have always known the devil did not exist but as a projection…glad you were able to hug yourself though! Don’t get carried away and start kissing yourself, your wife might start really worrying…

          • Jethro

            She might dig it, but I’m stopping at the hug for the sake of my own sanity. Where would the devil take me next…. eewwww.

          • mewabe

            That’s when your wife will say with a wicked smile” “you devil!” Better stop while we are ahead, this being a family site…

          • Jethro

            Right again my friend.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Alright. Let’s go to Syria. We’ve got a devil of a war going on. Missiles have been fired this night and how do we hug that war and heal that mind where hurt is taking over in the place of love. I’m not saying we shouldn’t or should but can’t we Imagine, as John Lennon sings, can’t we give peace a chance.

          • Jethro

            That would be wonderful! Giving peace a chance. I guess the big question is why can’t we? or Why must we always be so angry with each other. What is so important that we kill each other? I think that’s what Neale is trying to give the world, a reason to give peace a chance.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I agree, Jethro. I love your questions in general, by the way. I forgot which one you asked Neale and he posted it up here, but I agree that it should have been highlighted. It’s the way you word things, I guess.

          • Jethro

            I do not try to sound highly spiritual when I post here. I’m a standard backwards human being and do not wish to act as though I’m not.

            The question was; How can I be more compassionate than God? As a child I could not fathom a God that was of so much Love that I was not to understand that love and then send anything to eternal torment. I would never do that, not then, not now, not out of Love OR Hatred.

          • mewabe

            Yes that was an extremely good question, that should be asked to every religious person…! But religion is never about logic or clarity, as we know.

          • Jethro

            You are correct, it should be asked, and it was. I was told that we could never understand the love of God. They were right, I don’t understand that kind of love.

          • mewabe

            That’s the copout for religious people…”The ways of God are mysterious…” No kidding!

          • Jethro

            The truth is, The thoughts of “Man” are mysterious. I could be more insulting, but mysterious will work.

          • mewabe

            Good one..
            And are they really thoughts, or more like malodorous vapors? We will never know.

          • Jethro

            malodorous cranial vapors… I’m going to try to work that one into a conversation in the next few days. I take everything with a grain of salt. I meet to many good people to decide the world has totally wrong. The news will not reflect that statement, It’s all about spreading bad news, just more malodorous cranial vapors. ok… I will work it into a different conversation.

          • mewabe

            Malodorous cranial vapors are the worst…almost as bad as mental methane, a similar emission.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I would not go out on that very thin limb and suggest that “we will never know,” with regard to understanding the thoughts of man. I’m almost positive that we will one day understand consciousness, and perhaps sooner rather than later. You have to remember, we’ve only been at this, with modern technology for time periods measured in decades. If you think in more realistic terms like centuries and millennia, I think it would be very, very surprising if we didn’t understand this phenomenon.

            I think we mostly do understand it, but the problem is figuring out how to prove it. Earlier this week there was news that a mechanical synapse had been developed which is capable of learning. We know more and more what parts of the brain do what, and we’re starting to understand the network that ties it all together. I’m confident we’ll figure it out.

            Let’s play a game… Does this count as a thought? Would you agree that when you make a decision about something, you have a thought(s)? Is that fair? Picture yourself in a self-driving car going down the road and a child darts out in front of the car. The car must “decide” whether to take out the child, or swerve the car into a tree and certain death for you and perhaps any of the passengers in the car. Does the car have a “thought” as it “decides” to do one or the other? Do we have a “thought” when we’re in the driver’s seat and faced with that dilemma? Is consciousness at play in one case, but not the other? Why or why not? Essays will be turned in before the end of class and spelling and grammar will count! (grin)

          • Rainbow Shell

            Having just recently been hit by a car, I must say this is a interesting essay question indeed. In the instant of choice point, we decide the highest thought, act, deed. If the highest thought is aware that the highest thought possible is not liable to act on the highest deed possible, then higher life takes over and chooses for us. That’s my gift from my accident which seemed more like a swerve hit than accident by the way. At any rate, does a car have consciousness is something I’ll have to think on a bit.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Unconditional love. ..Pure love. we need it. God needs it. I am still working on this last thought, I mean the part about God needing unconditional love. This is a new one for me, but I am going with it as a hunch, a bit more than a hunch actually. I feel it. I feel God needs the purest of love, the purest of forgiveness, the purest of compassion and understanding, too, a whole lot of unconditional love. If we are God on this level, He/she has been doing a lot of hmmm I don’t know how to word it. . . how shall we word all this craziness we witness, all the muck and truck of lust and greed and war and feast and famine for eons and eons, but then he runs the gamut way up the scale to the highest tip top tipping point called pure love. So, he requires forgiveness for his own part in acting out here, there, everywhere in between, but so do we. IF God is here as us, we have to start looking at him/her as us, I guess. Depending on the emotional pain and struggle and physical pain whew car hitting head does not feel good, the degree to which we forgive is a matter of forgiving a self.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Oh yes. I recall that one. That’s one I really love. You also usually ask a lot of good questions, if I am remembering correctly. How can I be more compassionate than God if God, moving through me as divine expression of his consciousness is choosing to eat a whole small pizza and root beer without sharing a single bite or sip:)

            On a more serious note, how do we Be and Do in any time and space seems to be the question. How can we Be, Do and Have as God in the highest time and space, as in heaven, where there is no time and space at odds with heaven and we’re just nowhere. like in a purest being a purest God without me pestering him in his big grand mind to give it all to me right here right now or else. That never works. At least it hasn’t for me. Everything has to happen in good time, i have come to know. and even in this relative world where war is still in our view. I guess a lot of it is taking ownership of our part in the creation of it.

            My question stems around Neale’s great question that I also love–how do we interpret God as having a preference or desire, and in light of that last question, how do we even approach God at all without asking. ..um, why don’t you just fix it? I think Neale asked that, too. I mean, if God has desire and preference to help us why is there a holdup or a back swing of a chaotic node in the harmonics of our universe ever? It seems God does need our help, which is kind of scary. I guess God gets his way eventually. I don’t know. It’s worth pondering.

            For instance, war or negative movies. I don’t like watching them. I don’t like living them, but they impact life on some level, I think. God is on all levels. That is the real hinging factor here. God is both in heaven and here in physical duality expressing through us as physical vessels who sometimes act out in not the best ways always.. How can I be more compassionate than God as I am sitting here and now in this time and space when I am still part human, part god (dare I admit that I am part God? lol I just got hit by a car, had a major bout with faith, which is big for me. I have thought I knew him better than this but after twenty years, questioned him. am better really and ready to learn to walk again, went through a divorce bigger lol) yet waking up to many facets of divine God expressions expressing in many different ways has been challenging. I had to wonder why. Why God? Why me? Why didn’t you tell me there was a mad girl driving up the road right at my head? Why do you want to express like a car hitting me, anyhoo? Did I doubt the Big Guy. Did I blame, doubt, point a finger at him? Yes. I admit it. I indeed questioned his/my judgment. He is pretty big and I knew it for twenty years at least. It’s not like he couildn’t have told me. I would have chosen not to cross the street at that precise moment. He could have said, hey don’t walk. ..there is a mad driver coming up the street. The Big Guy sometimes chooses things that we don’t always choose in our highest moment. I see the blessing in it now, but had to question big time in the first moments of ICU and all that good stuff That’s been my experience. Sometimes, he has a preference and gets it without our awareness. . Oh yes. Doubt was big in the beginning. So, getting better is now a reality and I am grateful for the growth spurt in awareness because I take more accountability for my experience, both good and bad, and don’t always believe all that’s coming at me has to appear divine but can eventually have divine consequences. I guess moving through it is key. I must say I have had to forgive him though, and I laugh when I say this because I never thought I would be mad at God or think God needs forgiveness. In some wierd way he might need our forgiveness. I hate to say it but I told God I hated him and it got ugly. 🙂 We are on higher terms now. I am now willing to witness and express his highest version through me. God needs forgiveness and compassion, too, I guess, and that means us, so we have to forgive ourselves is what I am really saying. God is a car hitting. God is a salami. God is a war, I guess, if it’s for a good cause? I don’t know but God is All and that means all we choose to express as we sit here and now. He is a rock, but he is also a gutter. He is a continent, but he is also a subatomic, membraneous molecule. He is everything, including war, so I am now on the upswing and choosing peace, hoping to meet the outer as a divine unity with the inner highest version of my highest perception of an old God / new God who is us as only Love Sweet Love, Only Pure Love. Being half God/half human, there are still times when I am tired of seeing God play war on Earth, and I am still wondering why in the heck doesn’t he help out more, but I guess HEB’s are on it, and need all of our help, so I guess it’s time to give them and us our best. it’s time to send a kiss to ourselves in every way shape and form, through every wormhole we can witness love as only love. It’s time to send love on over all over in and through the world 🙂

          • Jethro

            And… Thank you. That’s very nice of you to say so.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Just stating the truth 🙂

          • Rainbow Shell

            I think it is all about forgiveness with capital letters for emphasis. We have to forgive, and that is the healing of it all. We must forgive us and them, and even God, if we come to that least auspicious point in our lives of awareness, where we witness things we don’t wish to witness. Really, it says much to say we need to forgive us for allowing war and us for doubting love. Forgive and hug is where we need to be all over the world 🙂

          • Jethro

            I agree.

          • Sam

            “I think it is all about forgiveness with capital letters for emphasis. We have to forgive, and that is the healing of it all.”

            Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, and a huge leap up from hate and revenge, but then the next level, again, is to discover that there is actually nothing to forgive. Nobody does anything actually wrong. Nobody does something they couldn’t help doing, at that particular point in time. A tree that blows over and hits your foot, is the same thing, no matter the action in question.

          • Jethro

            Yes Sam, That we agree on. A tough one to learn to practice but true. We cannot expect perfection from someone if we know that we ourselves cannot be perfect. Our only expectation should be imperfection. If we expect imperfection it turns out perfect.

          • Sam

            Imperfection is perfect for motion, and what we call evolution. Quite good to have something to reach for, and improve, or else there be just static all over. Our inner drive is to do better and to understand more. To recognize this in each other, is pretty much all we need to have peace.

          • Rainbow Shell

            It’s good to keep the eye on the tiger’s eye 🙂

          • Sam

            Without it becoming a staring contest 🙂 Life is not made easy. Not too much, not too little, and still you might get hit 🙂

          • Rainbow Shell

            Tiger, tiger burning bright`will always find a way to keep things right.Not too much, not too little, but if I’m in the middle, surely I’m supposed to be there 🙂

          • Rainbow Shell

            This is how I think of me. . .I don’t know about anyone here. I am just a rough draft, so to speak. I revise me as I write. It’s kind of good to write simply because as we write, we think and as we think, we write so we actually evolve with living the words and the revision of the self, the living self, soul song is always sung in a different note, a new key. I guess I am a diamond in the rough, but that’s the most I expect till I fire that firegod sungod from heaven. and tell him to give me another ride on that wing and to stop putting me in his beak and carrying me to the distant outer reaches lol Just kidding :)I kind of like riding on the eagle, but he knows not always how to land me just right 🙂

          • Jethro

            Yes rainbow, we are rough drafts of ourselves. The coal before the diamond. We will continue to make changes, not until we are perfect, but until we cannot make changes. We instinctively know perfection cannot be achieved because we instinctively know we are judged, never perfect. We have landed perfectly every time quite honestly. Keep doing what you do, if it makes you content with who you are, your moving in the right direction. Few people will ever tell you the truth about who you are. You know though. You are the only one who will ever know.

            I smell a poem in that. What can you do with it?

          • Rainbow Shell

            🙂 It’s really something that you state it so spot on me. I was telling my ex today that he should write some poetry. In fact, we get along better now than we ever did but he won’t try to heal his heart. I told him just state something true. He said some famous poet said this, too. I said it’s how I began my recent firestorm poetry line, an epic about the birth of life 🙂 It’s how I wish to die–as truth only. I am truth. We are truth or we are nothing. Shakespeare said something like that didn’t he? To thine own self be true. . . and knowing God on earth is not perfect helps me to forgive me. But, isn’t there a special spot in the heart where we reach that diamond glove heart in the sky amidst the trees and we suddenly know we have a special spot in God’s big heart we carry him in our pocket through all time and space as long as his pocket fits like a glove. It always fits like a glove or it isn’t meant to be our spot, I guess. It’s like my favorite poster as a kid. This was on my wall. .still true today. .my favorite poster forever and ever. If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it’s yours forever. If it doesn’t, then it never was or something like that. .Anyway, I saw God in a dream like a wisp of wind amidst some trees, blooming. He took me out of the tree I was climbing in the dream and put me in his pocket He said that’s for me, and then he walked away. I saw him, like the wind but with pants and a jacket, then I grabbed him. .the wind. .and shoved him in my pocket. It was a dream of sorts, but I know God smiled when I put him in my special pocket today and I smiled when I saw him put me in his. For me, every person is a poet and has a pocket that is unique. I don’t know where I’m going, with this but it has to be true in order for me to live it. Truth. To me God is the wind that is True to the Heart that is always True to the Heart of the biggest mind that we are in all spaces of God. Truth. No time for nothing else.There’s a song in there. .I ain’t got time for nutting else. . .I should be sad right now. I mean, we’re in a war and I don’t know that this is pertinent but to me it is maybe. If we are true, do we war with anything?

          • Rainbow Shell

            Thank you 🙂 These words are soothing and the idea that there is nothing to forgive soothes the soul, at least the absolute soul. When I get to that level of awareness..nirvana, heaven, samadhi..whatever we call it, I will ask my SunGod directly why ? why was there so much pain on this level called earth and then there will be a special room where I will tell that SunGod what I think of bombs bursting in bloom after bloom of mushroom smoke and fire through eons and eons in and out of time and space, and then I will tell him “I love you for feeling and Being all the suffering resulting for all the bombing, but why didn’t you tell me sooner. For what were they bombing at us? what’s the matter? there is nothing I need to be forgiven for but you should have told me sooner, love”

          • mewabe

            New generations of young men are born all the time who don’t seem to know or learn anything about the past and are all too willing to fight, driven by testosterones, naivety and a love of danger, and exploited by ruthless leaders who use them as cannon fodder to achieved their own political goals. The old song “Universal Soldier” written by a Cree Indian, Buffy Sainte Marie, comes to mind…

            As a side note, why doesn’t anyone notice that it is usually not women who kill, bomb, rape, and destroy, but men…this is not to blame men (I am one of them), but to figure out what it is about men, whether in their nature or/and their upbringing and cultural conditioning, that propels them to be so ready and willing to kill and die? I think that’s an important question worth looking at….

          • Jethro

            I heard a good one the other day, If your going to stir the $iht pot you should have to lick the spoon. I wonder how many wars we would fight these days if the leaders still road before the solders with swords held high to be first into battle.

          • mewabe

            True, unfortunately I am not sure that it would make a difference in the long run…Europeans fought for centuries with their leaders or kings in front. The French and English in particular fought forever. The French went so far as daring the English to fire first, as an act of defiant courage, at the battle of Fontenoy…and of course they lost that battle (but won the war anyway). The folly of war knows no bounds…

          • Rainbow Shell

            Amen. It’s a lot different when you’re sitting behind the sidelines.

          • Jethro

            I know that I have the easy seat, watching and dealing with feelings about it are easy. There are people out there being asked to commit atrocities that will effect them until they pass on. I can’t imagine what it must be like to carry that kind of guilt. I have guilt for sure that keeps me from doing what I feel to be wrong again but it was my decision to create both. That is, I wasn’t ordered.

          • Rainbow Shell

            And, this is the true heart. .doing what we now know is in unison with our true mind rather than being ordered. It’s a higher love when we do what we know when we know what we know just because rather than doing it as an “order.” Being ordered to do something is different than being a volunteer of our own inner knowing and volition

          • Jethro

            Hi Rainbow, when it happened to me quite a bit I copied my post before I posted. If it didn’t post, I pasted and reposted. Nobody (my opinion) is trying to remove your posts. It’s a glitch in the system. The second post usually sticks. I’ve posted some pretty foul language that shouldn’t have posted. If you wish to stick around, copy and paste worked for me. Otherwise, it’s been a pleasure reading your posts.

          • Rainbow Shell

            hey I’ve had a few foul things pop from me but I have relinquished those fowl ways. I refuse them and they stop 🙂 I don’t know what the glitch is but I posted a poem on a fire sungod and that was to mewabe’s post, but there were others that didn’t stick. I might try to take your advice. I might try a second, maybe even a fifth, but truthfully, I am always around for interesting dialogue. Thank you for the inspiration 🙂

          • mewabe

            I enjoyed the dialogue and your poem…meegwetch!

          • Rainbow Shell

            Thank you, Mewabe. I love you for saying this. You lift me up where I belong 🙂 by the way I should ask what is meegwetch. That looks scary 🙂 Thanks for enjoying my dialogue and poetry. I’ve got a blog of it. But, I keep getting spammed off of here. #$@! I’m being good too. That’s my first cuss word but I’m going to change it and say heck instead.

          • mewabe

            I loved your poem but couldn’t reply directly…did you delete it?

          • Rainbow Shell

            thanks 🙂 I am writing several today, probably into the night but ne is definitely going to be about a wargod for my sungod and I’m going to use the inspiring poem from Robbie Robertson, the part about the stars being heard as they fall from the sky, kind of like a shooting star. Can you just see a soldier in a war zone looking up. ..let’s say he’s twenty or something so young that he doesn’t know death, only the fire of youth. ..anyway, imagine his bright eyes looking up in the sky and witnessing what he thinks to be a shooting star and the sound, the roar, like a tunnel, a train, a cloud, a ploom, a rumble and then his smile hardens. It’s not a shooting star ya know. . .it’s something he’s never seen before. anyway, that’s the beginning. Thanks for the inspiration

          • Rainbow Shell

            I think the youth are given a difficult plate in earth history. So much, so soon so fast but they are adept. I know men have testosterone. I have my own share of testosterone, too lol Actually, I am extremely feminine by nature but have a certain competitive nature as well. But, I don’t think we can truthfully ignore that there is a grand difference between men and women. I lil]ke men rugged but not dangerous to society. Period. At any rate, I’ll have to look at that old Indian song. I do love the Indian song always. It’s in my blood. My favorite Yeha Nova, Sacred Chants is also universally beautiful. It’s my favorite.

          • mewabe

            “Men rugged but not dangerous to society” is like having pit bulls kept on a tight leash…of course it all depends on what you mean by “rugged”.

            Men and women are different by nature. This should be enough to satisfy us. But I think that society and culture tend to exaggerates these differences, to the point that men become physical and psychological caricatures of masculinity, and women caricatures of femininity.

            To use obvious examples, boys are not born insensitive and girls are not born weak. Yet the stronger men are told to become by society, the more they despise women for being weaker…and the more sensitive women are told to be and act, the more they scoff at men for being less sensitive and clueless about feelings and emotions. These artificial differences cause men and women to ultimately no longer respect and understand each other…

            We need to break through these artificial gender molds and cliches and allow boys and girls to be raised as human beings rather that gender caricatures. Nature itself will develop the needed differences, we don’t need to add more!

            As a side note, as long as mothers, wives and girlfriends are “proud” of their men “serving” in the military (if they want to serve so bad why don’t they become waiters?) to “protect” America (from what?), we won’t have peace. This kind of “pride” is a social cancer.

            The song I mentioned is a folk song…Donavan sung it well. My favorite anti war song is Masters of War (from Dylan) sung by Pearl Jam…there is an underlying anger against war in it which I approve of wholeheartedly! I also love Einstein’s comments against war…

            I know the song Yeha Noha…I think it is sung in the Dine (Navajo) language. The Sacred Indian Chants album is great. Have you heard John Trudell’s Rich Man’s War? The Indian chant in it is a Heyoka (contrary) chant…very appropriate.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Just listened to Robbie Robertson and The
            Red Road Ensemble. Can’t stop listening, actually. I love the sounds, spiritual, soothing and lyrical. ..I’m sure there is a better word. I happened to be listening to the Golden Feafher with lyrics song. . what a poem.

            I could hear the stars falling in the dark
            when you find whats worth keeping
            with a breath of kindness blow the rest away
            I gave my love a golden fearther
            I gave my love a heart of stone
            and when you find a golden feather
            it means you’ll never lose your way back home. .

            Also love the line about sweating away the sins after eating of the sacred mushroom and wading in the water howling away like coyotes at the naked moon. . .

            I’ll have to listen to the others later. Good questions as to what I meant when I prefer men rugged, I had to stop. What do I mean? I always said it without thinking but I mean rugged like an indian 🙂 kind but gentle, aware of all sounds of the forest but true to the heart of his own beat I don’t know. tall, dark and handsome doesn’t hurt either but it’s a more spiritual ruggedness, a guy of the earth, playing a flute, wearing his own headdress, dancing to the sound of his own flute, a soul song is what I am after I guess. . .I’ll just leave it at that.

            At all costs, we have taught men to steer clear of admitting sensitivity is not gender specific and women strength is not a good quality to harbor in life. These are the old days, I think. I pray we are growing up. I heard somewhere that it’s okay for men to wear pink and lavendar and while I still prefer mine in brown and black and tan, I am not adverse to turquoise with yellow moons 🙂 Seriously, we are all of it deep inside but there is still a difference between the genders that I appreciate. I’ll have to ponder it more

            .

          • mewabe

            I am glad you enjoyed the songs, poetry and music!

            It is rather comical to think that colors are gender specific…I remember seeing a band of gypsies playing guitar and singing one day, and one of them was wearing a very bright hot pink shirt…another a bright blue, another a vivid green…strangely enough, their voices didn’t become high pitched, they didn’t become feminine.

            Native Americans wore earrings and much decorations which would be considered very feminine in boring western cultures…same in Africa with the Maasia, who wear more decorations than the women, not to mention other African tribes where the men wear make up!

            Nature takes care of our differences. Do we really need to add more, as if we wanted to have literally nothing in common with the complementary sex?

          • Sam

            “Many people have a tendency to place the power outside of themselves. That’s what many “conspiracy theories” are about as well…from “reptilian aliens” to the “illuminati”. Even when negative elements do exist and are at play, they have no power unless we grant them such power through our thoughts and fears.”

            Pretty accurate. Only it’s not “our fears”. When you do, you give it power.

          • Jethro

            From rainbow shell,

            yes. Wow the Wingmakers are like indians and have been known to wear something like makeup. I don’t if it’s war paint, makeup. . i don’t know what it is but it is wow wee to me. I actually wrote a poem for that sungod. here it is. I hope I don’t get into too much trouble. I’m still working on it, the poem, not the trouble. here you go.
            Firewater Me
            Bre athe in the mist
            breathe out the fire
            breathe in a stream
            a breath of furious and fast desire
            exhale the inspiring desire
            let me
            inhale the sweet salt
            of your fire desire
            exhale the perspiration
            of your firey heart’s inspiration
            breathe in the firebreath
            exhale the nth dimension
            of the exponential
            perspiration
            fire breathe me
            in and out
            out and in
            outbreathe me
            fire god of me
            in breathe
            the firebreath of us as
            high firewater
            exhale the
            inspiration of your fire designing
            perspiration
            taste my salty mist
            the misty
            oh so mistic
            perspiration
            taste this salt
            add the flame of
            all fire desire
            the high fire inspiration
            firewater over me
            firewater through me
            firewater break me
            open and course through me
            fire my vein of my every fire’s
            time and space
            firewater cleanse me
            firewater breathe me
            firewater hold in me
            firewater, live me
            like
            life hot firewater through me
            firewater power in me
            firewater
            fire me
            fire fire fire
            fire the
            holy heart water through me
            holy fire heart fire water fire
            love fire
            desire pumping
            my heart fire
            flame heart me
            gold line me
            live me fire fire fire
            like hot ice firewater over me
            cleanse me water fire
            fire me
            pour me
            your liquid fire
            amber gold me
            godfire gold me
            fire fire fire
            sungod me
            high fire us up
            sungod us
            fire god
            oh sun god
            of fire desire
            heart desire . .I’m still working on it 🙂 i’m going to put it on my blog of poetry. there are other versions, of course.

          • mewabe

            Thanks Jethro…yes there are some glitches in the system.

          • Jethro

            Your welcome, and yes, I’ve understood that for some time now.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I agree. We are the inner and the outer, the left and right here in duality or physical planes. God is us as we desire to Express God, so we can express as we choose or not, but God is definitely in all things physical, even a loaf of bread or anything physical. I guess, what fascinates me now is the fact that God is also submolecular to a very zero point of matter. I mean, we are talking quantum thought, sound. Sound travels, and how do we sound to the highest form of God if we are bombing another or intending to cause harm with chemical warfare? Why can’t we give peace a chance.

          • Jethro

            Well how we sound is responded to with sorrow. When I say we, I mean the people of the world, not a country or government. What we are witnessing right now is governments having a pissing contest. Though there are groups involved who are not government that we know of. It would be more polite to go flex their muscles at each other on a sunny beach somewhere.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I hope we think long and hard before we engage in war. I prefer to not reap the harvest of sorrow, no matter who is doing the pissing on the crops. I prefer to keep my sunny beaches clean 🙂 Thanks for the posts tonight!

          • Jethro

            And Thank you.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I agree. We don’t want to dwell and I know we have all life behind us. We have the power to reshape history, our future. . .our every dream can come true, but, as the book points out, there has to be a shift, a coming together, like the old song goes. Come together right now over me 🙂 No worries about attachment on my end. I attach only the idea that we need to expand awareness as to the many faceted ways such encounters through time and space yield fear or love.

            Some are not aware a higher self exists or that love is really the most powerful force in our universe. We can call God anything–he, she, it quantum consciousness, space man or what have you, but there is a version of the fields where we play. Here in duality or physicality where we have to know good to know bad, love to know fear, my point is not that we need to ignore things but that we need to bridge a gap so that we can impact All Life in a less chaotic way, lest we end up in a war zone, for instance. I hate to be negative about the world and I pray for Syria and the whole world but I so hate war, and I want to impact the world in a positive manner.

            By the way, I think it says somewhere in one of Neale’s books that God is a SpaceMan or traveller lol Truthfully, I have come to know that God is definitely a SpaceMan too in addition to being this pure Love thing, essence, what have you called Elohim. In fact, if, as Neale’s books teach, we are in part God/him/her/it/consciousness, then we are knowing God is everything we experience here in physical plane. God is not only aware of the up and down of it, the left and right, the war times and the peace times but God is also expressing the up and down. Hence, God’s approach to Neale in asking for this Third Invitation to help lift help to the highest version God can be on earth as we do impact All Life, in my view when we play here in dual planes of existence.. God is that thing called salami, but he/she/it is also pepperoni and actaully vegetarian green pepper. I mean, God is actually dirt, moountain, mineral, rock, water, fire, cloud, and I do mean literally. To me, God is sound, both good and bad but prefers the harmony. But, if we don’t think a soldier dying in Syria or a person crying anywhere for that matter is not heard, felt and known as God’s expression in physical planes of existence, having an impact on All Life, then we are not being real. Just to be clear, I don’t know whether Neale uses the term alien per se. To me, HEB or not SpaceMan or not it’s all the same and if we can come to unity and find our place in the Big Kahuna’s Sun and in the whole expansive Mind of God, then we do bridge the gap and raise the bar to reach a higher and higher love.

          • Rainbow Shell

            I wrote a longish one. Maybe it will reappear from thin air )

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well said, Mewabe. Well said…

          • The power is within us, but there is more than just the individual, there is the collective. So the answer is both us as individuals & others (of us) as the collective.

            The power of the individual is great. Greater is the power of a unified collective.

          • Rainbow Shell

            A focused collective is what we’re after hence neale’s book. I mean, that was the big message. We need to collect like minds and establish a common goal of sustaining life rather than squelching it, and we need all the help we can get from HEB’s everywhere from here to heaven. If God is in the physical, God is also in absolute but requiring our collective unitement, marriage bed of unison, a unity consciousness desiring to surive, not just uplift, so amen on the collective and its grand power. It’s our only chance, I think.

          • When we realize the power we have as individuals, we will understand the greater power the collective can have.

          • Rainbow Shell

            When we realize that the fire power we hold as individuals unites to become the ignition of the whole shebanging fire power of the collective, we can set the world on fire in a good way, of course. This song comes to mind. Fiiiire uh uh uh when she walks, she’s really got that talk. . Are you old enough to remember the ohio players, 1974 🙂

          • Rainbow Shell

            I give up man. My posts are getting monitored to much. It’s a lot of work. I’m just moving to my own blog but it’s grand to share a little light. I wrote a poem and everything. I give my blog title but that is not censored if I recall Marko is it okay to give a blog title here any longer? It’s all poems, no preaching allowed lol

          • I believe no outside links are allowed. If you print something you can I believe print it in it’s entirety. This is Neale’s blog & is warranted to keep to the topic at hand.

            If you print a link other than a CwG it will be put on hold to be checked by the admin.

            All comments a monitored in that no cussing or really mean spirited comments allowed. You check further on the site you should find out what’s allowed etc.

          • Rainbow Shell

            thanks, marko. Yes. JUst the normal rules. I didn’t do anything bad this time lol i honestly didn’t even put my link to my .com woo baby wish I could invite all here. guess I’ll have to send you a smoke signal so come by anyhoo Thanks for the dialogue. Hopefully, the admin will see there is no rudeness in any of my recent posts at all. Have a good night 🙂

          • 🙂

          • Rainbow Shell

            I responded here, Mewabe. I don’t know if you got it by email, but it’s in the thin air 🙂 Hope it returns in physicality 🙂

          • Jethro

            Here it is
            yes. Wow the Wingmakers are like indians and have been known to wear something like makeup. I don’t if it’s war paint, makeup. . i don’t know what it is but it is wow wee to me. I actually wrote a poem for that sungod. here it is. I hope I don’t get into too much trouble. I’m still working on it, the poem, not the trouble. here you go.
            Firewater Me
            Bre athe in the mist
            breathe out the fire
            breathe in a stream
            a breath of furious and fast desire
            exhale the inspiring desire
            let me
            inhale the sweet salt
            of your fire desire
            exhale the perspiration
            of your firey heart’s inspiration
            breathe in the firebreath
            exhale the nth dimension
            of the exponential
            perspiration
            fire breathe me
            in and out
            out and in
            outbreathe me
            fire god of me
            in breathe
            the firebreath of us as
            high firewater
            exhale the
            inspiration of your fire designing
            perspiration
            taste my salty mist
            the misty
            oh so mistic
            perspiration
            taste this salt
            add the flame of
            all fire desire
            the high fire inspiration
            firewater over me
            firewater through me
            firewater break me
            open and course through me
            fire my vein of my every fire’s
            time and space
            firewater cleanse me
            firewater breathe me
            firewater hold in me
            firewater, live me
            like
            life hot firewater through me
            firewater power in me
            firewater
            fire me
            fire fire fire
            fire the
            holy heart water through me
            holy fire heart fire water fire
            love fire
            desire pumping
            my heart fire
            flame heart me
            gold line me
            live me fire fire fire
            like hot ice firewater over me
            cleanse me water fire
            fire me
            pour me
            your liquid fire
            amber gold me
            godfire gold me
            fire fire fire
            sungod me
            high fire us up
            sungod us
            fire god
            oh sun god
            of fire desire
            heart desire . .I’m still working on it 🙂 i’m going to put it on my blog of poetry. there are other versions, of course.

      • Patrick Gannon

        The laws of nature have no ability to “want” anything. They simply are what they are. It’s bad enough personifying and anthropomorphizing imaginary invisible gods that live in the sky, but don’t do that to the laws of nature. They simply are what they are. And these laws remove the possibility of gods, souls or consciousnesses affecting the particles in our natural world.

        • Sam

          “They simply are what they are.”

          Oh, yes, let’s leave it at that, shall we? Then who needs scientists? Certainly not you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m not sure I understand your comment. Scientists discovered the laws of physics through the scientific process. In so doing, they have illustrated beyond any reasonable doubt that there are no external god, soul, consciousness or other magical forces that have any effect whatsoever on the particles in our natural world.

          • Sam

            This is cherry picking, so it will concur with your own conclusions. There are many scientists not closing the book on the possibility of any intelligence behind it all, based on several unsolved facts. Not the least Einstein. He conceded that, “the problem involved is too vast for our limited minds.” I am sure he never foresaw your mind, which must be limitless. In fact, I think you need to start some church of some kind, because you have all the traits of a fundamentalist. No offense.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No offense? Yeah right. That’s the best you can do? That’s your best response – personal insults? Very spiritual indeed!

            We’re done here. Personal insults say more about the person dealing them, than the person receiving them.

          • Sam

            Not an insult, but to tell you how you come across.

      • mewabe

        “We are quite literally under fire, walking this earth, from all the laws of nature wanting to hurt us.”

        Here is a very good example of the degree to which religion, and specifically Judeo-Christian religious dogma, has poisoned the mind of humanity.

        The only negativity in existence originates from within the self. In your case, it is quite clear that you are projecting your own negativity on the natural world, which is neutral, neither negative nor positive.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          I can’t come up with anything but a resounding “yes!”

          • mewabe

            Thanks Annie…

        • Sam

          Hmm, could you explain some more? 🙂

          • mewabe

            I don’t know that I can explain, as what I stated is very obvious to me (the jest of it being “negativity originates from the self, from within”), and rather simple to understand…We seem to be from different world, conceptually speaking, and I am not sure that I have the ability to bridge the gap.

          • Sam

            Hmm, did you mean to say, that I was influenced by religion?

          • mewabe

            I do not know you or your background, but the first impression seems to be that your view of “the laws of nature wanting to hurt us” parallels the Judeo-Christian concepts of a “fallen” nature or world preyed upon by a “devil”.
            New agers use the word “negativity” instead of “evil”, but the general framework is similar, which is that this negativity is not our responsibility, it is not our own, it comes from “out there”.

          • Sam

            Well, glad you took the time to explain some more anyway 🙂
            My background is religion free, thank god. I did well picking my parents, and upbringing, in that regard. But, of course, no one can entirely escape the influence of religion, which permeates
            any culture there are. “Life is pain”, comes from Buddha, they say. After exploring this assertion, I have concluded that it is indeed correct.

            The physical world is all about resistance, which can only be overcome by exertion. Nothing comes for free. At every turn there is a struggle, in one degree or another. Which, in short, is pain — and also why you need a lot of sleep to recuperate.

          • mewabe

            Do you have to struggle to breathe? Or don’t you breathe effortlessly, even in your sleep? Isn’t breath life?

            Buddhism is a religion. Buddha saw one side of the coin, pain, and decided that it was the background of pleasure…that moments of pleasure are merely gaps in the stream of pain. This is a very common distorted view, which is rather neurotic. Do you think children would have such a view, or that only neurotic adults share this view?

            What not the reverse? Why not saying that pain are merely gaps in the stream of pleasure? Why not understanding that life’s core nature is ecstasy?

            Or, if we should wish be totally objective, why not understanding that life is equal pain and equal pleasure, and that suffering merely originates in the desperate desire to hold on to pleasure and avoid pain?

          • Sam

            “Do you have to struggle to breathe? Or don’t you breathe effortlessly, even in your sleep? Isn’t breath life?”

            Why does the body need to breathe? It’s the struggle to keep it alive. Or it dies. The body will stop working if it doesn’t overcome the forces that will kill it. There is nothing in the physical world escaping the struggle for its own existence. And as we know, a fight, they all in the end will lose. So the struggle is real, as it is with everything physical. Me breathing? I am not my body. But it has my compassion.

            Breath is life, creates life, maintain life, and to focus and influence it, one can achieve a good experience of wellbeing and newfound energy.

            “Buddhism is a religion. Buddha saw one side of the coin, pain, and decided that it was the background of pleasure…that moments of pleasure are merely gaps in the stream of pain.”

            Buddhism is a religion, and with any organized religion, my suggestion is to dissolve them.
            Gaps of pleasure is not far-fetched. But the gaps we will learn to expand, during a lifetime, often, and especially over many.

            “What not the reverse? Why not saying that pain are merely gaps in the stream of pleasure? Why not understanding that life’s core nature is ecstasy?”

            You can say pain are merely gaps in the stream of pleasure when you are close to reaching such a stage. But not when first starting out. You will need to go each of the steps up. You know of many already reached “nirvana”?
            Life’s core is ecstasy, as it is with sex as well. But you have to work for it, or it makes no sense. Orgasm 24/7 in a million years, will fade away as boring and be no pleasure at all. The working process, struggle and contrast, is what makes it feel good, reaching your goal.

            “Or, if we should wish be totally objective, why not understanding that life is equal pain and equal pleasure, and that suffering originates in the desire to hold on to pleasure and avoid pain?”

            Sure, but to overcome fear, all together, is a long process, and exactly as intended. You are born to experience, and nothing else. There are, objectively speaking, no hurry. The longer it takes, the more experience. Which, in the big picture, is fine.

        • Sam

          “Here is a very good example of the degree to which religion, and specifically Judeo-Christian religious dogma, has poisoned the mind of humanity” […] “seems to be that your view of “the laws of nature wanting to hurt us” parallels the Judeo-Christian concepts of a “fallen” nature or world stalked by a “devil”.”

          Religion, in my view, is poison. But not every statement made is untrue. A fallen nature, I can relate to, as Gud playing a human for a while. But not when this is twisted around to be something bad. Satan, devils, demons, is just plain energies, and laws, hitting you, disturbing you, and dragging you down, for the challenge of which you are here for, having a ball, as you fight your way back all the way home. To personify energies, is an exciting story for little children to grasp. I think we, the humanity, have just about grown out of those very tiny shoes.

          “The only negativity in existence originates from within the self. In your case, it is quite clear that you are projecting your own negativity on the natural world, which is neutral, neither negative nor positive.”

          The physical world is relative, which is the opposite of neutral. Only in a relative world you can experience the difference between negative and positive. And what you are here for.

          “This very common projection of one’s own fears and negativity towards the outer world, whether nature or people, is akin to a mental disorder, and has destructive long term consequences on the world and effects on the person harboring such thoughts.”

          It’s common to be careful exploring the physical world. One wrong step, and you die. A fact. If you say this is only something in my mind, I think they will lock you up. Most people handle this very well, without the excessive fears or negativity, and the few that don’t, we try to help.

    • Patrick Gannon

      It’s called “mindfulness” and it works, and anyone can do it, and no gods or HEBs are required.

      • Yes, that’s one way to put it. Yet HEB’s made up or not, is a fun thing for me &, well I like fun.

  • mewabe

    Another illegal act of aggression by the US against a nation that never attacked us…in our name, with our tax dollars, and in perfect line with the neo con agenda of illegal “regime change” in Syria (after Iraq and Libya and before Iran), as precisely spelled out years ago by the ultra-rightwing think tank Project For A New American Century. Right on target and on schedule, and perpetrated by yet another puppet of the military-industrial complex. No one who is marginally conscious should be surprised…Iran will be next, under either a right wing Republican or establishment Democrat administration, makes no differences.

    We are indeed living in an Empire…a helpless populace distracted and entertained to the point of complete mental numbness and driven by insecurity and propaganda to accept anything that our government, which most Americans have now come to fear but won’t openly admit (how could you admit being afraid of your own government in the “land of the free”?), does. It’s called manufactured consent, see Norm Chomsky for more details.

    Let’s watch the lamestream media justify this act…as if our government had the time and the means to collect irrefutable, solid proof that the Syrian government was responsible (our government has an impeccable track record of never ever lying in order to get us to war, correct? And the lamestream media has a perfect record of not being a cheerleader for the Pentagon, right?), and as if the entire world had appointed America to be the cop of the planet and above international laws.

    Now, after this unfortunate cruise missiles interruption, let’s breathe deeply and get back to love and light while the little boys who rule us and who aspire to be men keep playing with their phallic toys.

    • For me I envision a wise, government, wise leaders, wise people, contrary to current appearances. Visualize what you desire to see & it will be, eventually. I also like to visualize The Enlightened States of America.

      That said, I’m also reading Ralf Nader’s new book “Breaking through Power” According to Nader it’s not as hard as people believe. I’ve not gotten far in the book yet, reading parts here & there when I have time. But when I’m finished, and feel there are some concrete things that can be done, I may start a study group on it.

      • mewabe

        Just a thought…if we were a wise people, we probably wouldn’t need leaders or governments…just a few bureaucrats to administers paperwork, and a lot less laws and regulations as we would be wise, intelligent and responsible enough to regulate and govern ourselves, that is to say to be truly free at last.

        • Before that time, we will see a lot of transitional changes. But we are collectively brainwashed to see politicians as evil while accepting a few might be good men or women. Like Ralf Nader, Bernie & Liz Warren.

          That’s why I like to visualize The Enlightened States of America. But if you/we can’t even imagine/visualize it, how can it eventually come to be?

          • mewabe

            I think that most politicians have proven themselves to be evil, unfortunately, because, like so many corporate CEO’s and banking executives they are serving hierarchical systems or structures that are mostly exploitative, destructive and oppressive.

            If I was to visualize anything, I would visualize a free and responsible humanity…starting from the bottom rather than the top. Change will not come from leaders but from the foundation…the people. When the people no longer feel the need to betray themselves and betray their own authority and power by looking for leaders, gurus and messiahs, they might begin to evolve…just as an adolescent begins to mature when he no longer look to his parents for bailing him out.

    • Stephen mills

      Not often I disagree with you mewabe but you can’t have dictators killing children with chemical weapons and its not the first time ! I said 4 years ago they should have taken out Assad … 400 000 deaths later and a country with millions of displaced people in a state of fear is not a good place to be. This has been going on now for longer than the second world war !
      Believe me I ,am totally anti war and killing anything for that matter….but what has an abuser learned when his abuse has never been challenged and he gets to continue with impunity. This is abusing the abuser . How much of the peoples wealth has he wasted on weapons of war ? He has to be arrested for crimes against humanity . This is for Nato and the world to sort out not just America .
      Lets see how this pans out ?
      They never give peace a chance these people they are only interested in what they want and seek to hold onto power even though the country is going to rack and ruin.

      • Rainbow Shell

        “This is for Nato and the world to sort out not just America.”

        I agree. We can attempt squelching the inhumane treatment of humanity across the waters all on our own ,but this sets us up for future disasterous consequences. The perception of us is already tainted to say the least, and perception isn’t everything as appearances are not always what they appear to be, but they can lead to concrete physical ramifications.

        What we need is a leader who is like an indian 🙂 aware, aware, aware of all sounds of the grand forest, both in the distance and at home, sticking to survival but looking for the future crop and harvest, paying close attention to the justification and ramification of the most subtle movement. .. quick to act with his moccassin first, but using the bow and arrow if necessary to save the tribe, cautious like a deer with footsteps that leave no false imprint/perception behind. Okay enough said, but truthfully we can learn from the indians. Their connection to earth and willingness to meet at a thanksgiving table is what we need most now in the world.

      • mewabe

        What have bombing Iraq for years and taking out Muammar Gaddafi in Libya achieved but opened these nations up for terrorist factions and complete chaos?

        We cannot “evolve” humanity with bombs…beside, again check out the ultra rightwing agenda of “regime change” in Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran that was spelled out before 9/11 by Project For A New American Century…and look at what has happened and is happening today, in the exact same sequence. Coincidence?

        Beware of the media playing with our emotions…and remember that the US led sanctions against Iraq caused 500 000 children to die in that nation. How about countless children being born deformed in Iraq as a result of the US using depleted uranium ammunitions? Where is the lamestream media outrage about this?

        We should know by now when we are being manipulated to justify an agenda that was decided almost two decades ago!

        • Rainbow Shell

          I agree war is last choice. And it should be a united choice, not a single country choice. Also, I have concern for all the nuclear power plants housing all over. Who is watching over these and how do we reup the watch over those that don’t have anyone’s best interest? Some with malintent might cause leaks and dangerous spills in our environment. Look at Japan. Look at US and where else is anyone’s guess. We need a watchdog over the power plants and who better to watch than a HEB or a highly evolved benevolant force?

          • mewabe

            I don’t think war should ever be a viable choice…especially wars of aggression. Self-defense might be understandable, if someone is out to invade and rape your nation. Nothing else can ever be justified…furthermore we need to look at what leads to war, and who is to profit from war in the short and long term. Who finances dictators for example, and who will gain what from geo-political conflicts. As in all things, follow the money…

            The public gets too easily manipulated, because most people feel. Psychopaths (most of those who rule us) have no feelings but are expert at manipulating feeling people.

            To have HEB watching over us is basically admitting that we are helpless children…it’s okay to be a child for a time, but at some point we will need to come into our own power and accept responsibility for our thoughts, beliefs and actions.

          • Rainbow Shell

            Yes, but I don’t agree with that last bit at the end. That’s all. The rest is my opinion. I hate war. I so hate war. I think we should hesitate before we act and walk like an indian 🙂 I think we should follow the money trail but as to when and where malintendors send funds to those who love to dictate is for someone else in foreign policy, I guess. Who sent money to whom for what and why is whew a big wonder that I don’t attempt, but I do believe that having HEB on our side is not admitting we are helpless children because we are them. If you believe we are part soul or whatever you call it. ..you don’t have to call it God, and you don’t even have to love it. That hasn’t been my awareness, at least, not that I haven’t mentioned my distate for the big guy’s choicepoint in my personal life. I did mention that I told God I hated him/her/it at one recent choicepoint, but I do not really hate him/it/consciousness because I know this choicepoint served the greater good. I actually need more understanding to grasp it so that I don’t despise his choices for me, but you know. I am human still. What a wakeup lol Here I thought I was god :). However, I still think we are at least part God/part human, part Goddess/part human or something like that. We are not helpless, helpless here. WE have choices at critical junctures to come together or not. We are quite capable of serving the greater good for all and choosing it in full awareness. That’s my belief. `

        • Stephen mills

          Are you saying that the a faction of the U.S military used the chemical weapons to forward their own agenda ?

          • mewabe

            No, not at all, that would be truly insane. What I am saying is that politicians use certain events as opportunities to implement agendas that were worked out long before these events occurred.

            What I am also saying is that the US has gotten into the habit of destabilizing foreign regimes that do not align with US “national interests”, and of financing and arming so-called “rebel” groups to take out foreign leaders that America would rather replace with one of its compliant and corrupt puppets. This should not be news for anyone who has followed US foreign policies for the last 40 years…from south and central America, Panama (Noriega) to Iran (the Shah), Iraq (Saddam Hussein) and on and on…

            What I am saying, furthermore, is that the Russian explanation of the event is a lot more plausible. The US has relied for its “intelligence” on a doctor who was put on trial for terrorism in the UK, and is now being regarded as a jihadist by the UK government…great witness!

            Remember 2013 when the US accused Assad of killing its own citizens with poisonous gas? Tuned out it was untrue…a big fat lie that Obama attempted to use to bomb Syria, until he decided not to do it, being apparently a bit wiser than Trump!

            Assad was actually making progress against ISIS…why would he jeopardize such progress to kill a few civilians with poison gas and thus turn the world against him? This would be totally illogical and profoundly stupid. How can anyone buy this?

            The neocons are not a faction of the US military…they are politicians! Some say that they are allied with rightwing Zionists and consequently pushing regime change in these nations (in the past Iraq and Libya, currently Syria and next Iran) to help Israel.

            Currently, Turkey, the US, the UK and France are allied with Saudi Arabia, ISIS, Al Qaeda and Israel against Syria, Iran, Yemen, Russia, China and Shia Muslims who are fighting terrorists. That’s the jest of it…a real mess! There are no “good guys” in this snake pit, in my opinion, and America and Europe should stay out of it.

          • Stephen mills

            Sorry that I haven’t answered ,I’am contemplating what you said .

            Is it spiritual to let the innocent ,who are often caught in the middle of war to fend for themselves the U N to turn a blind eye to their plight ?

            Where is the peace force made up from different countries in all of this. The governments involved are all complicit as you have stated each taking sides with their vested interest .

            How do you get a dictator hell bent on destruction of the opposing force at all costs even if it comes with hundreds of thousands of his own people being bombed into oblivion.

            I have no answers for this conflict it’s sickening and heart wrenching . It’s gone on for too long now .Its very dangerous for the planet .Violence is all these people know….what chance does anyone have if they believe that this is the only way to move forward.

  • Patrick Gannon

    Missing posts????

    Hi folks. I have a theory as to why some posts don’t show up here, even though we get the email notices for them. I think it has to do with having too many TGC windows or tabs open, and I’m guessing the blog engine gets out of whack trying to keep track. I make a habit of closing windows or tabs after I respond, so that when I click “REPLY” on another email, and it opens a new window or tab, that I won’t have multiple pages open at the same time. Since doing this, I have not experienced problems with missing posts. It could just be a coincidence, but (Rainbow Shell for example), you might want to try this and see if it helps.

    • Rainbow Shell

      Thanks! i tend to keep about ten links all open across my screen and twenty working on double time in the background, but in my first post to you last night, the one you got by email, it had “detected as spam by global” so I don’t know. No cussing at all and it’s okay. I did mention aliens and it might have been a kind of scary thought to get into, but truthfully I think the world is much scarier without the high end belief that we have HEB’s helping and closely hovering about us 🙂 I will keep this in mind as I just found out my email was hacked into and spam runnning out to all my contacts. Geesh! what a pain. id theft has already been an issue, so it is a yeeks! but, oh well. . .life goes on 🙂

    • Jean

      Well, i think that if you include an external link in your post, it will not be displayed.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        That’s common with WordPress blogs. I’m pretty sure that’s the default setting.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Another way I’ve found sometimes “takes” better is to reply from Disqus notifications.

  • Jethro

    I just read a post from rainbow… “I revise me as I write. It’s kind of good to write simply because as we write, we think and as we think, we write so we actually evolve with living the words and the revision of the self, the living self, soul song is always sung in a different note, a new key.”

    I think and I write, I write and I think and I revise. I take time to try and say something but sometimes find I have said nothing or more than I wanted. So I revise. Will there ever be a perfect set of words for the reader? Only the reader knows. Rainbow, maybe we’ve tried to hard to never be enough and always overjudged? We will never know until we’ve had a conversation.

    • Rainbow Shell

      Hey Jethro 🙂 Thank you for highlighting me. I was laying kind of low. .you know. .Sometimes it’s good to lay a little low. Sometimes Neale is not always talkative. ..can’t know what he’s thinking. Don’t know if he appreciates my style or not, especially all my posts that tend to write and write and write so much. I have been known to write and write and write and write and write and write and keep on writing, and then I would keep on keeping on writing. Then I would take a pause and eat roman noodles and listen to some ol’ baby bleu music on the radio like King Krule Baby Blue Wow Anyhoo, some more writing without thinking or lifting a pen a bit is actually the best way to write, so keep on.

      I said it before and I’ll say it again. .your words stop me. I always find something grand in them. In fact, I devoted a whole blog to the practice of Free Writing. I love it. In fact, that’s how I came across the practice of speaking to source through pen. When we write or type (I believe free typing or free writing on the computer works as well as any free write. . well, heck. .haven’t we blogged enough to know we are all free writers here 🙂 ) and that’s where we get a hold of source energy. I used to tell students to set a timer for five and don’t think and just write, write, write without stopping and if you have to stop to think don’t lift the pen just scribble or something without lifting the pen. Don’t even look at grammar. Heck keats couldn’t spell and shakespeare invented words himself. Who cares. See. Creative. If it’s not in the dictionary, it’s poetic license to make a new word. Why not? One round of freewriting is good. I always had people go for two. two times looking over the paper always catches the kernel ,the seed of truth, something. There’s always something to discover in the middle of a tree of free writing with source, the big guy. I had so many students utterly amaze me. .

      It’s almost miraculous writing. They would be timed for five and come up with music, songs full out songs, poetry, full out poems, and full bodied paragraphs ready to insert into great research papers this way, all from free writing for five minutes. Eureka and flash thinking is all that comes from movement, motion. When we move our hand across a page with a pen we don’t stop to ponder. . we just fly like a wind, a bird on high. breezy words are fleeting. .you’ve gotta not think sometimes. . .you’ve got to let the body move first before the mind gets too critical and let the pen slide across the page . I don’t know how it works. .it just does. Thinking is good. .don’t get me wrong, but sometimes overthinking makes us stop what God is trying to speak. Allowing allows our genius to shine in writing.

      So you’re right on again. without thinking a bit you said it already here: “Will there ever be a perfect set of words for the reader? Only the reader knows. maybe we’ve tried to hard to never be enough and always overjudged? We will never know until we’ve had a conversation.” . Truthfully, we do judge, especially ourselves. And, your word Conversation is um ..Ahem. really calling it like it is. Free Writing is nothing more than Conversation. That’s why my students loved me. They didn’t like stuffiness, okay. anyhoo, .Conversations With God kind of were free written, in my view. Not channellng, but a quick free write is all it was on a legal pad.. That’s my view and I’m sticking to it. A recorder works, too 😉 I have a microphone. I just tell people I am free writing poetry or a book or something. It’s free talking man. free write podcasts are soon on youtube, my blogs of my poems. I have three actually. wish I could give you at least one of them. here’s a hint: it’s a puzzle, a riddle. I’m listening to a song called baby bleu . now, add the word notes and voila! baby bleu notes so cool. It’s going to be on youtube 😉

  • Communication is easy. War is not. I hope our leaders can sit at the table and converse, rather than react. Reaction is costly. Responding is healing.

    ps Jethro, we need you 😉