Something to think about:
IS CWG INFALLIBLE?
IS IT A RELIGION?

I think it is time to make something clear here. It is something I have made clear over and over again in all of my writing and at all of my public appearances — and I will continue to make it clear until it is understood by everyone.

I have stated time and time again that everything in the Conversations with God material could be wrong. I have never equivocated about that. Never once. In fact, just the opposite. I have said it over and over again.

Indeed, the books themselves make the same point. Do not believe what is written here, they say. If you choose, as an experiment, simply live their messages and see if they feel good and true and workable to you. If they do not, throw them away, toss them out, discard them and move on with your life in the way that feels good and workable and true for you.

I am open to a deep discussion of the CWG material with anyone, and this Global Conversation website is as good a place to have that discussion as anywhere on the Internet, so I welcome the engagement here. Let’s explore, item by item, what CWG says, what I believe it means, and how I believe it can be beneficially applied in every day life. It is not necessary to profess a belief in God in order for us to have this conversation.

I am not clear what has caused our regular visitor Patrick Gannon to state that I have made “earlier comments in times gone by that denigrated atheists and agnostics.” My memory must be fading, because I cannot recall ever having made such comments. So Patrick, if you could help me by citing what you considered to be such comments, I would be happy to either explain or retract them.

Patrick and the person posting as A True Friend have also recently asked here why I didn’t fix my own heart. But, in fact, I did. It is, apparently, how I did it that Patrick and ATF disagree with, and/or wish to use as evidence that the God in whom I believe, and the process of self-healing, is not real.

A True Friend also has posted this comment here: “I’m also kinda repulsed on how the CwG community like any other religious community follows their leader blindly.”

Well, my true friend, I am sure and very certain that anyone who knows me personally would tell you that I, as well, do not wish anyone to follow me blindly. First, the worldwide readership of Conversations with God could not in any accurate way be described as being “like any other religious community,” as CWG is not a religion in any sense of the word. Second, if some people have formed a community of interest around the CWG material, I am not “their leader.” Not in the sense of wanting, needing, asking, or hoping that anyone will “follow me.”

Again, evidence suggests it is quite to the contrary. I invite people — actively and continuously — NOT to “follow me” (I would be among the worst examples anyone could think of, of a so-called “religious”or “spiritual” leader), but to follow, always and in every case, their own innermost guidance.

I appreciate that both Patrick and ATF are, presumably, doing just that in their lives, as evidenced by their entries in the Comment section here. And I invite any and all discussions and explorations of the CWG messages in which anyone wishes to engage in this space. Indeed, that is the purpose of the space itself…so I invite the discussions to continue.

Looking in a serious way at the topics raised in the CWG material can only produce benefit for everyone, whatever their point of view, if the only outcome is that the discussions make more clear than ever to everyone what their point of view is.

It feels to me that emerging from one’s own highest personal understanding and greatest truth can only be a wonderful and beneficial way to live. I hope I have never denigrated anyone for doing that. But let’s not call a spiritual point of view a “religion” when it is not — especially when it declares, itself, that it is not.

I consider CWG to be a theology, not a religion. My dictionary defines “theology” as “the study of the nature of God and religious belief.” CWG surely is that, but it could not fairly be called a religion. And I am surely not fairly called the “leader” of a religion.

So let’s discuss Conversations with God fairly. It is a series of books, offering a commentary on God and Life. The books declare themselves to be a conversation between a human being and God. That is the belief of the author. I neither need nor ask nor expect anyone else to accept or embrace my belief. I simply invite people to consider the messages that have been shared in the material. Millions seem to have found something of value in them, if the number of people who have obtained and read the books, and passed them on to others, is any indication.

Now I know that any ideas that capture the attention of millions tend to be threatening to those who don’t embrace or agree with those ideas. But that is no reason to mislabel those ideas, or the person offering them. CWG is not a religion, and I am not a religious or spiritual leader. And everything in CWG could be wrong. I have made that clear repeatedly.

So let’s continue the discussions and explorations here by playing fair.

Good idea?

 

 

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  • Awareness

    It is a great idea to continue the explorations reasonably 🙂

    “I say again, not knowing leads to knowing. Knowing it all leads to not knowing anything.” – “Communion with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂

    Bless ALL 🙂

    • A true friend

      I meant to reply to you in a earlier comment that you send to me about the power of the body to self heal and it made me think. If you were to regrown one of your limbs I’m wondering on how confident would you be on your rate of success.

      • mewabe

        I grew 8 legs and 4 arms…for a good price I will tell you how to do it. Do you have a couple of million dollars laying around?

        • A true friend

          Alright funny guy. Post me a link with a picture gallery showing me how you are the incredible man-spider. And make it like one of those reddit AMA pictures,

      • Awareness

        You might find the youtube channel “Rudolf the tall white Alien” interesting 🙂 I invite you to initiate a conversation with the entity 🙂

        Bless ALL 🙂

        • A true friend

          Always dogging my question putting all of your experience on somebodies else’s claims and experiences. It must be cozy inside that fort you have built for yourself, isn’t it?

          • Awareness

            Be curious, “Rudolf the tall white Alien” on youtube might give you the answers you are seeking 🙂 If not then keep searching, let every soul walk it’s chosen path freely 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • A true friend

            Hello Mr Jukebox

  • AKA Patrick

    I as well agree that to continue the conversations is a good idea. I have said to others that I believe this is so.

  • Jenny

    I have not been on this site for months only because of some personal reasons. I was sitting in my living room trying not to think and worry about my current situation. Neale’s name popped into my head so I decided to check in. The first thing that I saw was him writing about 2 people on here, that are apparently regulars. Or at least one is. I tried to find their comments, but couldn’t. So I thought if I joined, I could. So I tried to join and my phone froze. I don’t have internet and my iPad is dead. So I want you all to know I am typing this one finger at a time on my phone. It made me very sad to read Neale’s words for today about Patrick and I will call him Mr. Friend. I do not understand why anyone would be here and then turn on him as Patrick has. Maybe Mr. Friend came in negative from the beginning. I have been on my spiritual journey consciously for almost 2 years. So yes, I am a newbie. I was raised Catholic, became a bible Christian, went back to the Catholic Church and then let go of all of that. When I was at one of my lowest points, I read CwG and it changed my life. They set me free! I was able to heal much more quickly. Nothing I was taught made any sense. These books made “sense” to me. I was able to forgive myself and others, lighten up, and begin to love myself. It sped up my healing process. Not once have I ever felt that Neale was trying to start a new belief system or create his own religion with him as the “leader”. What??? For those of you saying such things, I ask you this, why are you here? AND what is going on within you to bring you to the negative low that you are at? Honestly the words that come to my mind are insecurity, fear and jealousy. Are you acting out of love or fear? As we all know, God speaks to all of us. BUT, when you get caught up in negative unloving thoughts and actions, YOU have cut yourself off from Source. So again! My question to you is are you coming from love, or fear? I have asked myself why would someone do this? That is what came to mind… if you don’t resonate with Neale, you should not be here. Wouldn’t you better serve yourself and others to gather with like minded people? Of course you would! So what does that tell me and others about you two? Just sayin…. Love, Jenny

    • A true friend

      “why are you here? ”
      To ask Neale and everybody else in here what are the undeniable proofs of the things that God claims are true. Let’s take some examples. Let’s say that I have a accident and I’m left armless. I will then choose to have my arms back. Will visualizing daily, organic arms, suddenly make my new arms generate using the law of attraction? Will God make my new arms appear instantly?
      Imagine that I choose to time travel 20 years into the past. So how does my choice occur? Will visualizing it daily attract my time machine using the law of attraction? Will God mail me my time machine?

      ” what is going on within you to bring you to the negative low that you are at?”
      Why do you see my action as negative? Your sadden by the fact that I’ve written “repulsive”?
      I was merely remembering when I was young, around age 10, when I was in a house where the owner had visitors there because she claimed that she can heal people and that her son was made by divine intervention i.e. no sperm.
      All of you remind me of that young version of myself.
      If I could travel back in time trust me I wouldn’t be wasting my time there. I already explained why I am here. If God explains to me how to time travel in this forum then clearly I’ve used my time wisely.

      “Honestly the words that come to my mind are insecurity, fear and jealousy.”
      Insecure and fear about what? The ultimate outcome of life? I’ve analyzed every possibility and have a answer for everything. I’m pretty secured about my position in the universe. Jealousy? For what? I can’t see anything you have or Neale or anybody else in this forum that I would desire my life.

      “God speaks to all of us. BUT, when you get caught up in negative unloving thoughts and actions, YOU have cut yourself off from Source.”
      That’s funny. Do you want to know what I’m telling God right now? I will tell you regardless. God I choose for you to receive a hall-pass so that whatever of my thoughts and/or beliefs conscious and/or unconscious that might hinder your communication with me.
      Goody. I will start my conversation with God here. God where is my time machine? I already have the list of things I choose to change.
      I’m so happy that I will see the butterfly effect in effect. Remember God even if my new choices in the past will create a horrible future it’s what I choose out of my free will. Hey, God You can always give me a reset button if things really go bad.
      “My question to you is are you coming from love, or fear?”
      Love of course. I love myself so much. If I would be a different person of the opposite gender I’d been so infatuated with myself.

      “I have asked myself why would someone do this? ”
      Already answered to you why! If you have any other questions you a invited to ask them.

      ” if you don’t resonate with Neale, you should not be here.”
      I disagree with you. My place is totally here.
      Wouldn’t you better serve yourself and others to gather with like minded people” Why would it serve me ? We already agree about everything. We already have to same answer to everything in the same way.

  • Stephen mills

    You have always said the most important thing to do is follow your own advice ,listen to your own heart .Go within….

    The CWG material is meant to lead you to your own truth ….and it’s one way not the only way but another way of letting you remember who you are .If people where not searching for answers they would not be reading these books .

    For my journey they make perfect sense as do other spiritual authors that I have read but for some reason the messages are more coherent a finer filter tuned slightly more to a higher frequency that resonates with my being .Its an intuitive feeling that I get in my body not in my mind .Feelings are the language of the soul .

    God talks with everyone all of the time….religion would never say that .

    • Victor

      Which other spiritual authors, by the way…?

      • Stephen mills

        Hi Victor to name a few Michael Learner,Thom Hartmann ,Jean Houston,,Bruce Lipton,Native American Spirituality books and activists like John Trudell and many others in my search . Not reading as much as I like at the moment have to make a commitment to change that.

        • Victor

          Thank you Stephen.

          I’ve read from Michael Lerner, Thom Hartmann, Jean Houston, Bruce Lipton, James Redfield and others.

          I don’t know about John Trudell nor Native American (US) Spirituality… I’ll give it a look.

          Greetings!

      • mewabe

        Hey Victor, I hope you are doing well. I have a suggestion: you might want to look into Jane Roberts…Unknown Reality volume 1 and 2, The Nature of Personal Reality, The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events, and other books of hers. Back in the 60’s and 70’s she explored parallel universes, multiple selves, the nature of time, etc…in real depth!
        “You create your own reality” Seth 1963
        She basically started the “new age”.

        • Victor

          Thank you Mewabe.

          I had any reference about Jane Roberts. I guess there will be links and downloads in the web.

          It sounds very interesting!

          Hugs and blessings!

          • mewabe

            You are welcome Victor, I think you will enjoy these books!
            I would start with The Nature of Personal Reality…all these books positively affect your consciousness at a very deep level.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Oh, mewabe!

          What a wonderful series of memories your mention of Jane Roberts and Seth have brought forth for me. I had all of the books, which were as marked and worn as the many others I’ve loved. With Jane Roberts and Seth, my mind expanded beyond and yet deeper into physical reality at the same time.

          An excellent suggestion, and I may re-read them myself. 🙂

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

          • mewabe

            I enjoyed reading all of these in the early 90’s, and still leaf through them on occasion. They definitively expand your mind…

            I felt an affinity for this material, and then learnt that Jane Robert had Native American ancestry. Her grandfather was full Native, and had a very close spiritual relationship with nature. I could see this come through the material…it’s not something that can be faked, it’s authentic.
            Take care Annie,
            M

  • mewabe

    The drive to be right is almost universally expressed, from Plato’s dialogues to today’s rigid religious dogmas and extreme and divisive political ideologies, as well as in interpersonal relationships.
    At time it is wise to let people express their view without response, and let their own voice echo back to them so they may (or may not) realize the origin of their strong desire to prove others wrong, which usually stems from some sort of insecurity, or possibly anger. Self-knowledge is always the hardest to acquire.
    In any case, there is no real conversation in such instance, but futile debates. Debating is futile because the object is not to exchange ideas in a fair and honest manner but to attempt to demolish those of the “opponent” and emerge victorious in one’s own mind, which amounts to expressing the same primitive survival drive as in any other competitive endeavor.
    Silence is not defeat…when everything has already been said, not responding to attacks forces the attacker to battle his or her own inner demons, ultimately, when there are no other shadows to confront.

    • A true friend

      “The drive to be right is almost universal”
      Correct me if I am mistaken Mewabe but I’m pretty sure that you have written in the comment sections of this website that you haven’t read CwG.
      I’m not trying to be right or wrong.
      I am simply saying that if CwG is real then CwG God has made some claims which include time travel, multiple universes, self healing, HEBs, mind over matter and other claims.
      If what has been said IS real THEN one could achieve time travel. I’m simply saying show me the blueprints for that time machine. CwG has said that this is a new paradigm based on what works and what doesn’t.

      • mewabe

        “…time travel, multiple universes, self healing, HEBs, mind over matter…”
        I am sure you know that none of these concepts are new. These are, in my view, potentials, possibilities, probabilities. Whether they become actualized or not by uniquely gifted individuals or by an entire specie remains to be seen. You can keep your mind open about them, or not.

        The human potential gifts certain individuals with talent in art, poetry or music. Have you written a symphony lately, or painted a masterpiece? Does the fact that you haven’t done so negate this potential for the rest of humanity or the entire universe?

        You have to own your choices, thoughts and beliefs…everything, every experience originates from within the Self, the world being your mirror, reflecting you. When your mind is closed, so is the world to you.

        I have a problem with “mind over matter”, a western concept. In my view, “mind IN matter” is where it’s at…enlightening matter from within so to speak.

        • A true friend

          “experience originates from within the Self,”
          So CwG tells me how my soul has chosen this time space continuum to fulfill his agenda. That’s all nice and cute but I choose end this experiment. HEBs should be delivering my time machine anytime or who knows how it will arrive. I would be nice if God could give me a advance notice.

          • mewabe

            You need to deal with HEBs who use a courier service with a tracking system. Then you will know when your time machine arrives. Perhaps in time for Christmas? Have you written to Santa Claus? Trump?

          • A true friend

            I’m curious. Do you want something from me? Because last time I heard you we’re the psychic. I can’t read your mind.

          • mewabe

            Sure, I’ll take everything you have. I might send you a time machine in exchange.

          • A true friend

            I got nothing. Easiest exchange I ever had in my life. Here is the address where you can send the time machine Romania, Reșița
            Bulevardul Muncii, Bloc 12, Scara 4, Apartament 12.
            boulevard Muncii (Bulevard in Romanian) apartment house number 12 (Bloc in Romanian) floor 4, Apartment 12

          • mewabe

            Could it be that you focus on what you don’t have, rather than be grateful for what you have, even if it is as little as a roof over your head and a bed to sleep in?

          • A true friend

            Its none of your concern on what I choose to focus on. Not to mention that I DESERVE IT by the simple fact that I breath.

          • mewabe

            Then breathe in whatever you want, and have a good separation, since if I remember correctly separation is what you want!
            So long…

          • A true friend

            I will separate myself as a “screw you” to my soul, god and everyone else as a gift for screwing me over once im done changing the timeline exactly as I see fit starting from 1992.

          • mewabe

            Sounds like a plan…but beside all that, have you ever thought about therapy, and exploring anger?

          • A true friend

            Yes it is a very good one. Are we done here ?

          • mewabe

            Yes the session is over I have another patient waiting.

          • A true friend

            If you were a real clairevoyant You would know that I’m perfect. Its God who dosen’t have his head screwed on straight. You would also know that not even the deepest of the abyss or the lightness of heaven will change my mind. I will prevail. I will win victory is mine. Now go and tell the world that you are a charlatan Mr Psychic.

          • Jethro

            I have stated to you that our only power of change is to change the way we personally think. Nobody here can change the way you think, only you. Victory is yours… of course.

          • A true friend

            “I have stated to you that our only power of change is to change the way we personally think”
            So if you where at sea and you we’re about to drown all you would do is think that you are happy that you are drowning or you would start swimming?

          • Jethro

            cherry picker! Avoiding a conversation makes you victorious. It’s all you have. Nobody can change your thoughts but you.

            I would swim myself to death due to a desire to live. But when I died I would be at peace knowing I did all I could. I could just decide that I would never make it anyway and choose to drown. Why do you pretend to care to understand me. You do not care about my life.

  • A true friend

    “Now I know that any ideas that capture the attention of millions tend to be threatening to those who don’t embrace or agree with those ideas. ”
    This is the most amusing thing that I’ve read or heard from Neale. No, CwG is no threat to me. I’m merely pointing that CwG makes claims (mind over matter, levitation) without any backing. Just like any other new age/ new though gurus like Deepak Chopra, Bruce Lipton and the endless swarm of them.
    Neale Donald Walsch or do you prefer Reverend William Walter or maybe Andrew Jackson Davis whatever the case may be IF what you are saying is TRUE I think that by now God has received my messeage. She is a failure ,yes , God failed me countless times and no excuse will make up for what she has done. She knows what she has done to me.I don’t need or choose her anymore. Soon, very soon, I will separate myself from her. Not a illusionary separation. A real one and I will enjoy making the impossible possible. She dosen’t deserve me.

  • A true friend

    I’m merely pointing that CwG makes claims (mind over matter, levitation) without any backing. Just like any other new age/ new though gurus like Deepak Chopra, Bruce Lipton and the endless swarm of them.

    Neale Donald Walsch or do you prefer Reverend William Walter or maybe Andrew Jackson Davis whatever the case may be IF what you are saying is TRUE I think that by now God has received my message. She has failed me ,yes , God failed me countless times and no excuse will make up for what she has done. She knows exactly what she has done to me.
    I don’t need or choose her anymore so I’m booting her out of my existance. Soon, very soon, I will separate myself from her.

    Not a illusionary separation. A real one and I will enjoy making the impossible possible. She dosen’t deserve me. But before I do any of those things she still owns me a time machine. Which should arrive shortly I presume.

    Since you seem to talk with her daily she should be able to send me some information on where it is or how and where it arrives. Maybe she will send a HEB to deliver it to me. Your the one who “picks up” Gods voice you should know how this things work.

    • Stephen mills

      It takes a very high level of thought to levitate .Try reading the Prophets Way by Thom Hartmann it describes some of what we would call miracles in this book. He describes a Master Stanley in his book as an example of being able to achieve high level of matter manipulation. Its a great read !!!

      • A true friend

        Apperantly the all powerful, all loving and all knowing Gid has problems instantly manifesting miracles.

        • Stephen mills

          Evolution is not a straight line ,if you do not believe you are a part of the divine as is everything else, what else is there.Life gives us choices to create positive outcomes for the collective called humanity on our pale blue dot in the universe. WE are a very young species on the grand scale of things finding our feet by way of denial and anger at god. Blaming god for what’s happening renders us powerless and takes away the responsibility to grow and evolve into a higher vision of ourselves. To believe in an angry ,vengeful ,violent god is a double whammy. So the solution is to create new beliefs and to demonstrate those beliefs to render life functional then we might see some miracles .

          • A true friend

            Are we talking about the same God that said that the holocaust was a perfect occurence in the universe? No, you stop defending your worthless God. You keep giving him excuses so that you can justify your condition. I have moved beyond God.

          • Jethro

            The perfect occurrence was not the holocaust itself. It was how everyone thought about it after it was over. The world may never allow it again unless we should forget.

          • A true friend

            Which just proves that God has made our brains so slow to think in advance that we need physical events to realize things that we should learn from a early age. I remember a quote from CwG! “You truly are Children of a Lesser God”. Image a brain that could process information in hours what it might take somebody lifetimes. Do you think that such a mind couldn’t understand all the implications of the holocaust?

          • Jethro

            What did the holocaust imply?

          • A true friend

            For me personally to never torture or kill people because of their ethnic background, age or any other trait that deems them unworthy.

          • Jethro

            How about religious belief? Did it imply for you personally to never torture or kill people because of their religious beliefs?

          • A true friend

            Apperently it’s hard for you to get this. I don’t care about your religious beliefs or whatever spirituality you practice. You know what ?
            Somebody tells me how they believe this fantastical thing then they better have some good evidence cause I will question them.
            There is a difference between fact and fiction. How you build a computer is a fact based process you just don’t put “pixie dust” in a cauldron and believe a computer will magically pop out!

          • Jethro

            You are still attacking people here based on their beliefs. Attacking Neale for his beliefs. Because there is something you don’t understand.

          • A true friend

            “there is something you don’t understand.”
            What is that?

          • Jethro

            I don’t know what it is you don’t understand. The fact that you don’t understand it keeps you attacking though.

        • Stephen mills

          What’s observable is life on the Earth for some of us is very short my daughter died at a day old . It’s happening all the time every day . .Some folks live until 100 .Billions of us live in poverty a few in lives of shocking wealth owning vast swaths of land and countless possessions . And you want a time machine there a few things to sort out before one of us messes up the space time continuum and to travel faster than light is the only way possible .Our spiritual development is still in the nursery so it ain’t going to happen .Life proceeds through the process of life .The universe is in no hurry to speed up the process of creating a time machine for you .I would like to fly around like superman as in many dreams I had, but gravity gets me down ! Pardon the pun . The all powerful Oz does not exist .

          • A true friend

            So you daugther died 1 day old and your tellling me that you are fine with the CwG God that tells that circumstance is perfect? Where have you left your balls as a man?

            Yes millions of people live in poverty but then CwG tells that these souls have choosen their earthly life before coming here. Have you even read CwG?

            First to clarify I thing. I don’t want a time machine I choose a time machine.
            Apparrently you havent read CwG. Time travel happens when you move into another universe. We are alredy traveling through time. Again Cwg tell that there are a infinite numbers of universes and that everything is all happening at onece. Are you sure we read the same thing. Second of all I am worthy to travel wherever and in whichever time period I choose. Stop giving excuses to God that “we aren’t advanced sufficiently. This is just your BS. Third of all CwG defines ESP as time traveling occurences. Go read the book. Fourth of all CwG explains that there have been people that have levitated. Its all in the book. Go and READ IT.

          • A true friend

            “Before one of us messes up the space time continuum” Has somebody in here read CwG?
            CwG defines time as all happening at once in the multitude of universes. So when we are always traveling in duffrent universes”
            Our spiritual development is still in the nursery so it ain’t going to happen”
            Your keep using that excuse as some sort of justification to why It can’t happen.
            You do realize we are talking about the same God that said that the holocaust is a perfect occurence in the universe?
            What is Neale’s favorite saying ? Oh, yeah, see the perfection!
            Go read CwG and you will that it talks about levitation and hiw ESP abilities are a occurence of time traveling. Not to mention it also talks on how the future already exista and how some futures where the human race went extinct is happening in the same time with futures where why are a advance civilization. I will time travel I can assure you about that.

      • A true friend

        “It takes a very high level of thought to levitate ”
        If this is the best God can do I am not impressed

  • Jethro

    I’m going to use the term “spiritual guide” for the sake of any arguement as there has been plenty of guidance. I was seeking guidance when I found Conversation with God. While I personally never received guidance I have read many notes to individuals that help to guide them into a peaceful understanding.

    Spiritual teacher… Yes! Whether it was the intent or not, the idea of God as presented in the books could not have been understood without writing the books. I became a student. I had a need to learn something new. I needed this information desperately when I received it! The best part of what I read is that I was thinking it already and my ideas about God were not just mine.

    The least of titles in this case would be “presenter”. I might agree with this if not for the enormous amount of activity involved in helping others to understand the ideas about God as it was written. An author who writes a book and has few comments is just an author.

    I’m left with “Spiritual guide”. We are all spiritual guides, as we share our thoughts about, well, anything spiritual or psychological. A lot of things will be taken out of context through a lack of understanding such as a need for a time machine to physically move through time. Not everyone understands that all of the books were dealing with a process of thought which can result in physical wellness. Depression is a good example of a process of thought that effects the physical body negatively. Few if any have ever been treated for truly being happy.

    The understanding received from the sharing of a CWG, depends mostly on what amount of knowledge is already with the reader. I didn’t understand this until I had read a few “Letters to Neale”. I feel my understanding is correct, it is to me. While all understandings are correct to the reader, I wonder how many of the 8 million plus readers truly Understood.

    Love, kindness, acceptance and a sharing of these with the universe, the earth and mostly, those we don’t agree with including ourselves. Why is that so hard to understand? A bad idea never hurt anything but the keeper of the idea, the physical actions based on bad ideas can destroy a planet and nearly have. What decisions can be made to heal? What knowledge do we need to make decisions that promote life? Why is everyone fighting to sustain the killing of anything and everything that a human can be involved in? It’s amazing the things we will do as individuals to be popular, rich, and right. Being any of these things requires belief, that’s it, nothing more, just belief. Really!!

    • A true friend

      “A lot of things will be taken out of context through a lack of understanding such as a need for a time machine to physically move through time. ”
      Thats rich you know. You know in real life we have things people choose to use called cars, planes and trains. Moving on you say that I’ve taken CwG out of context. I think that its you that dosen’t understand CwG and that you have formed a dogma around it just like your friends in the above comments. First of all at the beginning of book 1 if I’m not mistaken God says that the words god, love, life and freedom are interchangeable. However I deduce from your comment that you aren’t ok with me traveling through time as I see fit. This seems to come from all of the CwG community as a excuse that we aren’t worthy enough although everybody agrees with God that the holocaust was a perfect cirsumstance. What is Neale’s favorite saying ? Oh, yes, see the perfection! So much for you being love. Further more even if a physical device wasn’t necessary God would have sendme a memo saying choose the place you wish to visit and you are there. Even that wouldn’t be necesarry because according to CwG God already know my destination all she has to do is do it so how come I’m not where I choose to be. I have given God a free pass on everything! All she has to do is move her ass.

      • Jethro

        You wish to travel in time physically, I’m ok with you doing anything you wish to do. I am not holding you back and will never try. You seem to be your own obstacle as you keep expressing the desire to travel in time but you do not. I cannot have something to eat while sitting idle and doing nothing. What does God have to do with that? I must realize I have the ability to get up and get something to eat, I realize my needs and search to meet those needs for myself. God recognized as the creator, created an ability within me to serve myself. I will starve to death if I set waiting for god to bring me a sandwich. What actions are you taking to insure you have a time machine some day?

        • A true friend

          Have you read CwG? It’s the book that talks about levitation, law of attraction, time traveling with your mind, ESP abilities, self healing and so much more of the “God will bring you a sandwich variety.”

          • Jethro

            With your mind… now you have it.

            Considering the sandwich again, in my mind I can choose to decide I’m not hungry. If I decide I am hungry, I must now move into the physical rhealm and get off of my butt and get something to eat. Yes I read the books but I took the parts that were useful to me and left the rest in the books. It does not bother me that it is there.

          • A true friend

            Nice work cherry picking. I guessed you build quite a nice fort for yourself. What did you said about taking things out of context?
            “left the rest in the books” hm that does seem to be the very definition of taking things out of context.

          • Jethro

            What part of any of this is a religion? That’s where cherry picking was coined. In the very note from Neale above it states his writings are opinions and ideas. He states he could be wrong. Why would I choose any of his opinions that I felt were wrong for me. It only makes sense to use for myself the ideas that work best. When I get advice on the job to maybe make something easier to understand, I still only use what is best for me. Why is this any different?

            Time traveling with your mind I believe you said? Why are you waiting for a package to travel in time, when all you need is your mind? Have you lost your mind?

          • A true friend

            Can you make the difference between reality and fiction ? Right? Here is just a thought You die and thats it! No God. No afterlife! No anything! So what ? Cherry picking has made you feel better about yourself? Oh, while I don’t claim CwG is a religion it still tells the same story that religion and science tells : how things are in the world. Plus religion is all about cherry picking. Have you seen how many cults and offshots exist?

          • Jethro

            Can you explain what is real or fiction in spiritually? We are still talking about spirituality? Yes?

            What if I do die and that’s it? No after life, no anything? Yes, so what? Is it to be my goal to die unhappy?

            I do not belong to a cult or a religion so it is none of my concern how many there are or why. Religion is religion and science is science, I see no reason to argue with either. My life is my journey and there are not any confirmed rules that I must obey unless it would be the law of the land. Also, I don’t need a religion to tell me I am not happy with things that are occurring around the world. There is also many positive things happening.

            I have the ability to choose how I feel about it at any given time. As a matter of fact, it’s the only thing I truly have the power to change… the way I think about anything.

          • A true friend

            “the only thing I truly have the power to change… the way I think about anything.” People have build cars, planes, buildings, discover revolutionary formulas that has given humanity new abilities and powers. The way you think about it isn’t your only power but apparently you have accepted that as a fact.

          • Jethro

            I don’t want cars and planes to pollute the earth anymore. I am powerless to remove them. If I cannot remove them, I have to accept them. I can only change the way I think about it. I cannot remove them. CWG talks about this, did you even read CWG?

            The way to reduce the pain which you associate with earthly experiences and events—both yours and those of others—is to change the way you behold them.

            Your cherry picking my questions and avoiding the conversation…. What if I do die and that’s it? No after life, no anything? Yes, so what? Is it to be my goal to die unhappy?

          • A true friend

            I love how you are copying me!
            “cars and planes to pollute the earth anymore”
            Electric alternatives have been made and function great with solar panels. One quick thought because of cars and planes most people wouldn’t had been born because the vehicles have enable people to meet and fall in love hundreds of miles away from their hometown.
            “I cannot remove them”
            You can raise awareness about the issues.
            Study energy storage and energy generation and work in a laboratory that researches new techniques for improvement of electric vehicles or reduction of cost. Buy a electric car and rent it to programs like Getaround which is a shareable economy peer-to-peer car rental program. Talk to your friends and family about the shareable economy. Commute daily and talk to your community to improve their public transportation. See if you can insert in your community the same belief system that has transformed Amsterdam into a city of bikes.
            Or you can stay in your box and be happy because hey the only thing I do is be happy. I have giving you more than enough idea of your power that you keep denying.
            ” Is it to be my goal to die unhappy?” You know what you choose that answer but you can do something and be happy or you do nothing and be happy. The choice is your. My question to that question is different for yours. I choose to be all powerful so that I might help myself in the past at the sake of my own life.

          • A true friend

            “I don’t want cars and planes to pollute the earth anymore. I am powerless to remove them.”

            Electric vehicles in addition with solar panels or wind farms are a solution to the problem you said that your are powerless to remove.
            As a side note most couples in the modern age that have fallen in love and have raised a family have found each other hundred of miles from their hometown.
            If cars hadn’t been around it’s most likely that a lot of people that are born today wouldn’t have been born.
            Even if we would have today a electric vehicle infrastructure and millions of electric vehicles we would still have problems like traffic congestion.

            This problems could be solved if more people we’re encouraged to use the public transportation system rather than own a car. Additionally more cars owners could use a system like GETAROUND which allows you to rent your car to strangers. Since a car mostly stays idle 90% of the time this would improve the overhaul transportation system.

            Since the risk of disease might also increase automakers could include on the car hand handles, steering wheels and interior of the car sharklet material.
            This material is a bio-mimicry of the shark skin and allows the surface to be inhospitable
            to microorganisms. Communities could also hire specialized personal in cleaning their cars so they could create new jobs and improve the community.

            As for things you could ? You could raise the awareness of this issues and suggest solutions.
            Talk to your friends, family and local community how to best improve the air quality and safety of the citizens.
            You could also study engineering and research on better energy storage and energy generation solutions.
            You could ask the law makers to pass laws that will incentivize the population to make more positive purchases and choices.
            You could buy a electric car and give it towards rent system like Getaround and inform people about the system or create your own peer-to-peer car rental system and encourage people in your community to join.
            Regarding the other question.
            “Is it to be my goal to die unhappy?” I’m different from so this question has a different answer from your answer. If being unhappy is what I must choose in order to achieve what I choose to achieve as my goal then the answer is yes. I choose whatever emotion I’m required in order to bring fourth the future that I choose.

          • Jethro

            You’ve given great ideas for moving towards something but no answers that eliminate all things that run on dinosaur juice. So I’m still left with having to change the way I think about it. You have suggested there are things that Can be done that are not being done, I agree. I know that next week it’s all going to be the same and the earth will still be dying.

            When I asked if my goal should be to die unhappy, I asked because you said I was cherry picking and I was using that to be happy. Why would I do something to make me unhappy?

          • A true friend

            “next week it’s all going to be the same and the earth will still be dying”
            Are you sure you are a happy person ?
            “Why would I do something to make me unhappy?”
            That is a perfect question! Why would your soul and mine chose to come into this place where war, poverity and all this unpleasent things exist when HEB societies exist? I guess our souls are sadomasochists.

          • Jethro

            I never stated that I was happy with everything, but I am still thankful for many things.

            I have never been to or heard of a HEB society. I am here, where I am right now. I have been homeless and hungry and all I had to do to move out of that, is change the way I was thinking. I know I am not in control now. I have to do things differently if I want to keep my little house and eat and wear clothes. I do not see my soul as sadomasochistic, I see my mind as sadomasochistic. It’s my thoughts about things that could put me in a bad place. I don’t believe that because I read it, I believe it because I lived it.

          • A true friend

            Then how come God can’t assure you your basics needs since he/she/it is all powerful, all knowing and all loving? She could make food and clothing instantly manifest and upgrade your mind so that you would never need to sleep! She is God! She can do anything!

          • Jethro

            She did her part and gave me the ability to make the changes I needed to make. I would be bored in a world where everything I wanted appeared because I thought about it. It could be helpful at times. I too would like to eliminate sleep and visits to the bathroom. Lots of wasted time.

            Why are you so angry about the idea of God? Is it because your not getting everything you want? So like a 4 year old your throwing a fit and staying mad? Why put so much energy into being angry about it?

          • A true friend

            First off all I wish for you to have whatever you chose.
            Second my God of understanding wouldn ‘t be like this. She is helpful, kind and powerful enough to make it ok for everyone to live a more than decent life. If CwG is true she hasn’t acted like the God of my understanding so I have nothing to do with her. Its only logical that I chose to never come in physical realm ever again or stay with her in the realm of the absolute. I will figure out how to go my own path when the time is right.

          • Jethro

            I also want you to have what you want. I wish that you could have everything you ever wanted, I wish I could have everything I ever wanted. God is not the problem with the world. People are the problem with the world. It is people that are stopping me from having the things I want. God does not stop me from having things I want. If I go take something that is not mine people put me in jail. God does not care who owns it. I want to live somewhere else and god is ok with that, but people are forcing me to leave, not god. I just don’t see god as the problem. I must play the game daily with other humans and follow the rules they make. All humans must do the same.

          • A true friend

            You see this is where our difference lie. I believe in a God that can heal any wound, repair any damage, make every impossible thing possible.
            Regardless of how the universe functions she can only succed in bringing fourth her goodness.

          • Jethro

            I have been taught that god does these things also. I like believing it’s possible. The good things in my life are here because of how I feel about my life. I’m not angry that there are things I don’t have but I try my best to get those things. My wounds have healed and things I thought to be impossible have happened because I moved to get it done. None of the things that have happened in my life have happened while I set around wishing for it. I have had to work for it and I must admit I’ve enjoyed a lot of that work.

          • Jethro

            God has assured my basic needs, if we consider God to be the creator of all things, then God has created everything I need. It’s my job to get up and pursue it. I’m aware of my abilities and I am able to work for money, sometimes I work for products that I need. Sometimes people just give me things out of kindness because I was kind to them. Only lazy people want to set in a chair and do nothing and still have everything.

          • A true friend

            “Only lazy people want to set in a chair and do nothing and still have everything.”
            Every being in this universe deserves every good thing to happen to them for the simple fact that they exist.

          • Jethro

            I agree, and we can have at least some of things we want, we can choose to be satisfied with what little we have too. Of the few things I have, I can find something now and then that someone needs more and give it to them. My idea of a God is that part of me that shows that kindness. It should be the goal of everyone to make sure everyone has what they need. Why does someone need several billion dollars when people are hungry or homeless? Why can’t people share? We do not have a problem with god in my opinion. We have a problem with people yet again.

          • Jethro

            Nothing to say about the post below?

          • A true friend

            I responded to your post but because I edited my post and added new things the Disqus system has marked my commment as spam and deleted it. I will rewrite my answer shortly.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Jethro,

      I like the term “guide” and use it myself when reaching out to help others who have been abused. When asked, I explained that a guide walks a journey with someone whereas a leader walks ahead of a follower. I see Neale as someone who is walking the journey with us as he incorporates the ideas of CWG in his own life. He shares his own knowings and experiences, as do we all here. He is with us, rather than ahead or above us.

      I’ve been wishing there were a way to message you privately, but public it will have to be. Get ready to blush. I enjoy what a you add to the conversations here, and admire your effort at remaining kind and calm. The patience you have shown here is remarkable, and something I aspire to achieve. I hope you continue to show up and add your own perspective.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • Jethro

        Hi Annie, thank you so much for the kind words. I didn’t blush I adjusted my hat to fit my larger head though. We are all guides in this space, I have learned something from each person who posts here. I’m not as patient as I may appear. I do have some college behind me related to it. Each of us has an experience to share and if we can somehow give that away to someone we’ve done our job. I know I need it. Thank you for being here.

        Love and blessings to you

  • Daniel L Leahy

    Ego-ic, Narcissistic personality, Needing to be right, Resistant to a program, Isolationist, strong willed, desiring instant gratification… All of these characteristics come to mind as I read your texts A True Friend… I am also acknowledging some major hurts and disappointments in your upbringing that may be holding hostage in the past… I would desire to offer you the advice of allowing others to have their paradigms just as you find it important to express yours… I remember going to a denominational main stream church and listening to the clergy speak to the congregation… What I was hearing from the pulpit was in my understanding bondage and limiting beliefs… After all of my education in regards to spiritual stimuli, combined with my self righteousness, I felt it necessary to stand up and set this nonsense straight to the person speaking and his congregation… At that moment a voice within me said sit down and shut up!. lol I actually debated with this voice for a minute saying things like “with all of the knowledge and understanding that you have shared with me why should I not share it?” I even used the bible scripture that reads A light hid under a bushel basket cannot be see! lol And this patient loving voice said to me These people are exactly where they desire to be at this space and time in their journey’s… They have heard many contrary ideas other than the ones expressed here today in this church, but they desire to be here within their own empowerment (whether you feel that it is appropriate or not)… So I sat down and remained quiet… “I” then was able to take my mind off of my self righteous rant and was able then to look around and see the beautiful architecture of the building, the lovely light shining through the stained glass, and the little girl up in a row ahead of me picking her nose… lol The world will be alright without our discourse and guidance… Breathe and take a minute to be grateful for what you have, rather than focusing on lack… Peace, Daniel

    • A true friend

      Nice analyzation but you are misunderstanding everything. Everyone in this forums seem to be please with things just being boring. I’m a adventurous spirit. I done with this boring world and with this boring God. Grow up.

      • Jethro

        What makes it so boring? It would have to be your thoughts about it. You can change the way you feel about it. Nothing more.

        • A true friend

          “What makes it so boring?”
          That we aren’t a Utopia.

          • Kirsten

            Hi there,
            What makes it so boring? That we aren’t a Utopia.
            Every religion or teaching that will tell you about any state or place of Utopia, Heaven, Paradise will also teach you that these are places or states for very few, their pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Want something, earn it!!
            I think you forgot that many people here have a life others would envy, and call their lives that state, primarily gained through wealth, a cheap imitation of the real thing..maybe even yourself, that many would envy, they may think your like is Utopia, Vivtorian era people would think likes with heatkng, comfy clothes and electricity are Utopia, its all perceptive on Earth.
            I get the feeling you want a slave, someone to turn up and show you how to do things others can, and give you everything you want….existance doesnt work like that, you need to do it for your self.
            If someone from above wanted to meet with you, then they know how to take you out of your body in the state just before you fall asleep, they just havnt. If you wanted to learn to levitate you would be working hard on developing your mind, energy and aura to be so strong and of good energy that you would be able to lift your self out of your body to hover above it, or in a rare case to be able to lift your physical body with strong mind energy…..I assume you havnt?!
            Regarding Utopia again….your idea of Utopia may be my idea of hell, and vice versa, so on Earth thats so hard to even define.
            Yes life is boring in general, but because generation after generation have screwed up, and life now revolves around working to pay the bills, thats where the boredom lies, but Jethro is right, its your thoughts about it that are giving you the perception that life in general is boring….Ill give you a tip. Get a dream interpretation book and look up the meaning of all the things you want or love but don’t have…this list is your journey path or where you are potentially heading, or if unrealistic, simply traits in others that you envy.
            Then make another list of all the things you have now like your job, home, colour of your decor, clothes, gifts, medical conditions, everything good and bad….that will tell you where you and your life are now.
            Also look up hobbies and interests, they reflect a lot.
            Then put your list of things you have now on a mirror and read it aloud.
            This is what God, The Source, The Universe and all those above have to say about you, all the things in dream books are actually physical manifestations in our lives, we can be visually read by those above 24/7. Its fun, and what differentiates us from other primates and makes all our lives different.
            If you find your own personal life boring, that exercise should tell you where you’re going wrong, because every persons life should suit them perfectly, of is a reincarnation path they chose for whatever reason, work and paying bills may well be boring, thats how we provide the necessties of life, but everything else in your life is a direct reflection of you personally. Youll find ironing boring, but I like ironing as I like things to look clean and fresh, you may find waterblasting boring, I like it as its a war I can win against nature making my decks and driveway messy, I like walking up and down stairs and never take lifts, because my journey is one of Jakobs Ladder, i like crochet ad its weaving the fabric of life and wool is a protective energy. Those were random examples of mundane things, but to show you what I mean. We are manifestjng everything in our lives ourselves, take a look.
            I suspect you are the boring one or are wanting things you havnt earned or really arent noticing all the little baby steps in life, which is every tiny physical thing and experience to get from A to B…you want to fly…lazy cheat!!
            All said with a smile, you make me laugh with your tantrums.
            K
            Xx

          • A true friend

            “Want something, earn it!!”
            Why do people refuse to read CwG?
            “Even if they did nothing to earn it?

            Your thought that these things need to be earned is the basis for your thought that you have to earn your way to heaven. Yet you cannot earn your way into God’s good graces, and you do not have to, because you are already there. This is something you cannot accept, because it is something you cannot give. When you learn to give unconditionally (which is to say, love unconditionally), then will you learn to receive unconditionally.

            This life was created as a vehicle through which you might be allowed to experience that.

            Try to wrap yourself around this thought: People have a right to basic survival. Even if they do nothing. Even if they contribute nothing. Survival with dignity is one of the basic rights of life. I have given you enough resources to be able to guarantee that to everyone. All you have to do is share.”
            CwG Book 2
            Even if the other alternative we’re real like the abrahamic traditions God hasn’t created woman and man in the same time showing that his foresight is null. His all knowing nature goes in the garbage can. Despite being all powerful he needs in the early days of the old testament sheep blood and then Jesus Christ’s blood in order to wash away sin. This shows that God’s power needs “conditions” that throw away his all powerful status. So you are telling me that a flawed God gets to decide my and others fate while he claims to be perfect? I don’t think so.

          • Kirsten

            Hi,
            Exactly….Neales version of God is clearly different to the Biblical one, he just impersonated him in tbe early days of Neales books until acknowledging it wasnt the God Neale assumed it was, in perhaps book 3.

            The Biblical God acknowledges He is half evil, half good and listened to Israelites from the early days, learning as he went, and yes, is or was a dictator with very high expectations for people to be righteous. The only way to gain immortality…everyone else ends up in tne Afterlife and reincarnated. He never said He was perfect, Y’shua/Jesus did. Righteous people are not reincarnated, they have a ticket to the real Heaven. He is the God of my ancestors, I am an Israelite, and also the elected God of our countries through Law and the number of Christians, Jewish people, and Muslims, he gets the democratic votes for the Middle East and Western world.
            BUT what everyone seems to miss is that Creator made us, older scriptures have Creator in Eden, then later people calling on God. They also miss that humans rule Earth, not any God or powers above, WE do, until it’s Judgement Day time, then the Biblical starts His rule of Earth. BTW that Judgement Day is based on the dead (reincarnated souls) being judged for their deeds, and the destruction of those who destroy the Earth.
            Take care,
            Xx

          • Jethro

            The term utopia was coined from the Greek by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, describing a fictional island society in the Atlantic Ocean. The word comes from the Greek: οὐ (“not”) and τόπος (“place”) and means “no-place”, and strictly describes any non-existent society. So your bored because you are not no-place?

          • A true friend

            Thanks for the reminder of the words origin although I used the following meaning when I typed the word: a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions

          • Jethro

            But who decides what perfection is? Your idea of perfection may not be my idea of perfection. Shouldn’t a utopia be perfect for everyone. Many people are content with this world, they see a utopia. Doesn’t it come down to finding acceptance here and now? Loving ourselves and others and being kind?

          • A true friend

            “Many people are content with this world, they see a utopia.”
            Really ? Take a bunch of people that see life as utopic and give them some fountain water. Tell them that there is a fracking facility next to where the water was procured. You will see how fast their definition of utopic will change.

          • Jethro

            Yes, really. There are people that are happy with the world as it is today. Drinking the water, knowing about fracking, they are happy.

          • A true friend

            Really? Are these the same people that would enjoy eaating, sleeping and working 24/7 next to the fumes coming out of a exhaust pipe in a enclosed space?

          • Jethro

            Maybe it’s because they do not have all of the negative things you speak of in their lives. Their little idea of perfection is not your idea of it. So you agree obviously that having the wrong people decide what a utopia is could be a mistake. OR a utopia is a world in which everyone accepts everything happily. utopia means no-place.

            Grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the strength to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

          • A true friend

            In 12 hours they wouln’t have any thing left because they would be dead if not sooner.

          • Jethro

            12 hours? How could they work 24/7 if they will only live 12 hours or less?

      • Jethro

        As stated by Neale…. “I have stated time and time again that everything in the Conversations with God material could be wrong. I have never equivocated about that. Never once. In fact, just the opposite. I have said it over and over again.
        Indeed, the books themselves make the same point. Do not believe what is written here, they say. If you choose, as an experiment, simply live their messages and see if they feel good and true and workable to you. If they do not, throw them away, toss them out, discard them and move on with your life in the way that feels good and workable and true for you.”

      • Daniel L Leahy

        A True Friend, My question for you which is rhetorical is “What does everyone in this forums pleasure have to do with yours?” It appears that you are at the very same place in your life that Neale seemed to be when he started the conversation with god writings… He was tired of being the victim, and he was confused at to why everything that he attempted was met with futile disappointments, he was wondering if he was destined to be struggling with everything throughout his life journey… Sound familiar??? What is is that you desire so greatly that you feel the only way to obtain it is by the tearing down of everyone elses paradigm??? Because I would venture to say that everyone here would love to assist you in accomplishing that which you feel that you desire, but would desire for ourselves to maintain our own integrity, decorum, and authenticity… Peace dear one…

        • A true friend

          Let’s say that Neale is correct. His somehow competent filter to deliver a acurate message by God. I have some problems. First if all my souls has chosen this life. Maybe this is the part of me called my mind speaking but this isn’t a world I would chose to be born out ofbthe infinity of earth that have been claimed to be out there. If I’m trying to accomplishing anything than that is to chose a new timeline where I can transfer my consciousness.

    • Patrick Gannon

      It’s not a “self righteous rant” if you do it in an effort to help others. Mainstream religion can fill children’s heads with shame, guilt and fear that negatively affects their entire lives. Wanting to help other people is not being self-righteous.

      Obviously there is a time and place for everything and standing up to berate a cleric in his own church is probably crossing a line, but suggesting a discussion group afterwards might be a good alternative.

      • Daniel L Leahy

        Or listening to your Authentic Self and going in the direction of peace and acceptance would be appropriate also…

        • Patrick Gannon

          Just curious since so many in the New Age folk (particularly Neale) do this… but is there any difference between “authentic self” and “Authentic Self”? Do the capital letters change the meaning of those words?

          • Daniel L Leahy

            That’s a great question Patrick! The capitalization or not, referring to myself or Self, represents either the mind of man or mind of the Divine. Is Paul who wrote the Epistles in the New Testament encouraged his readers, let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who raised him from the dead. Or, a double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways. So what I have gathered from this, is that weekend come from different perspectives, different minds, yes? So in presenting the differences we use capital S for are authentic divine understanding.

          • Patrick Gannon

            So when it’s capitalized it refers to the mind of the Divine (also capitalized)? It seems a little odd that one would have to capitalize the word in order for it to be authentic. One would expect something divine to be authentic in any case.

            I’m just messing with you. It’s a clever New Age writing technique that allows an author to change the meanings of words to something besides what those words actually mean, simply by capitalizing them. It gives the author his own secret dictionary, full of capitalized words that mean something a little different from whatever the uncapitalized words mean – something that gives the author’s words an air or sense of (divine) authority. It’s a clever technique and being aware of it, largely takes away the effect, since you know something odd is going on; otherwise the normal uncapitalized word would be sufficient. When I see it, my BS alert goes off.

          • Daniel L Leahy

            I’m encouraged that your BS meter is working! Seeing how words are our least of the tools or purveyor of truths and understandings, I attempt to do the best I can with the symbols that I have to work with.

  • mewabe

    I personally find the direct challenge “Why didn’t Neale heal his own heart?” a bit insensitive and petty.

    Some Native American healers (“medicine men”) cured many people, yet died of diseases themselves, sometimes cancer. Illness is not necessarily an expression of failure, and death is neither a failure nor a punishment. I don’t think any healer, no matter how gifted, has ever been foolish enough to claim to be all powerful and omnipotent.

    I don’t think Neale has ever claimed to be a healer. To dismiss his ideas or messages because he has not attained absolute perfection according to certain concepts as (apparently) presented in the CWG books is intellectually dishonest.

    This is the same kind of challenge that all who have psychic experiences hear: if you are so psychic, why don’t you win the lottery?

    All of this confusion originates in the idea of mastery. There is no such thing…we can only cooperate with life, not master it. We are not on top of the universe but in it, and we are not alone. When we are in tune with the universe, we can get certain advantages, develop an acute intuition, live rather effortlessly and in what some would call a state of grace. But that is not mastery in the sense of directing things from above, like a boss…it is not about being the boss of things, but their respectful and loving friend.

    Native American healers speak of being as a “hollow bone”, letting the power act through them. In Zen and Taoism as well as Buddhism, the image is that of becoming as an empty vessel, to receive the power of the universe (spiritual knowledge, enlightenment). You might say the approach is feminine, it is one of cooperation and merging in unity, rather than masculine, of dominating and controlling from the will.

    Illnesses offer us lessons…again illness is not a failure, but it can be a reminder, such as “Take care of yourself, slow down…”

    We are all learning…no one is master, as there is nothing to master, only to love.

    • A true friend

      “Illnesses offer us lessons” If you had read CwG you would have known that life isn’t a school.You aren’t here to learn anything. It’s a contextual field in which you choose who you are.

      • mewabe

        If this is the case then I disagree with this specific idea. Life cannot be reduced to one thing or the other, it is many things working together on many different layers of consciousness, some of which we haven’t even suspected yet. Anything that reduces life to a simple formula is most likely a mistake, and originates from this desire for top down mastery I mentioned in my comment. This is a very western approach by the way.

        • A true friend

          Yeah, while I don’t choose to make Neale a rich man how about reading the books first?

          • mewabe

            I read one book, The Storm Before the Calm…and leafed through the pages of CWG…I got the general idea. I don’t have to totally agree with Neale to respect him, and I don’t have to know everything he has written to comment here. I know I am not coming from the same place or to the same conclusions, but that’s not a problem for me…is it for you?

    • “I personally find the direct challenge “Why didn’t Neale heal his own heart?” a bit insensitive and petty.”

      Thank you Mewabe, I would agree, now, can we all get on with discussing the ideas expressed in the books & debate the ideas, rather than simply the man?

      • A true friend

        “discussing the ideas expressed in the books”
        Here are some ideas we might discuss: ESP, time travel, HEBs, levitation and selfhealing.

        • I would suggest you go to the top of the page & discuss any of the subjects you mentioned & start there. Otherwise, the discussion if it starts here is buried & I think more would benefit as a new comment or question you propose at the top of the page.

          If you like time travel there is a show called “Timeless” it’s a new show that is centered about going back in time.

      • mewabe

        I agree Marko…but those who engage in personal attacks, when such are unfounded, merely reveal their own insecurities. The question is, what does A True Friend want…I don’t think anyone knows, not even himself. But he is entertaining…
        Patrick might be time traveling, as he is conspicuously absent.

        • Mewabe, I’ve gotten into some heated discussions on Facebook at times regarding animals/food & creating & co creating our realities & the evils of the world. The heat is toward me & the ideas discussed.

          I’m lucky or maybe mature enough where I don’t get caught up in their hot emotions & try to articulate myself in a reasonable compassionate way. It’s not always shown back to me but I understand where they are coming from so it’s not an issue.

          I’m not even necessarily attached to even being understood correctly, but I do my best to give an alternative view without the need to be right. You articulated how I felt in your words above, so I did not have too!

    • Spiritual_Annie

      mewabe, my friend,

      Well said! I would add that most people who have gifts rarely use them for their own personal use because they feel it would be disrespectful of the Source of the gift. I’ve heard people with psychic gifts say that very thing. And surgeons don’t perform surgery on themselves, either. Even if Neale were a healer (which I’ve never heard him claim to be), he wouldn’t necessarily use that gift for his own personal gain.

      We westerners lost a lot when the patriarchy took over and God became known as a male father figure. One of the reasons I’m drawn to spirituality is that it doesn’t define Divinity as any gender. Each of us can relate in the way that provides the most beneficial connection for us.

      It’s always good to read your posts here. You almost always provide a fresh perspective, presented respectfully.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

  • mewabe

    A True Friend:
    Joseph Campbell once commented that the very definition of hell is to get everything you want…forever. Think about this.
    I understand you want to challenge things, and I think it’s good to question everything, but your thinking process is a bit literal and simplistic. You seem to be coming from nowhere and going nowhere, like a child who throws tantrums because he does not get what he thinks he wants. You want answers yet you are not asking any real questions.

    • A true friend

      Then I choose hell. Towards infinity and beyond.

  • mewabe

    Update on the Dakota Access pipeline: victory! Hoka Hey! 4000 vets showed up in support today, and lo and behold today the Army Corps announced that it is ordering the pipeline be rerouted away from Standing Rock and Lake Ohae.
    There is hope after all…when the people exercise their power.
    “They got the guns, but we got the numbers.”
    Morrison
    “I don’t know about the rest of you, but it feels to me like that moment when Galdalf the Grey planted his Staff firmly in front of the Balrog and shouted, “YOU SHALL NOT PASS!”
    Angela Marx

    • It has made mainstream news. But anyhow, it may not be over yet. Still for the moment I am extremely happy & relieved to hear this. I heard it earlier today on Facebook. We are in the age of exposure. Let’s enjoy this current win & celebrate in anyway that feels right & good to us. Peace.

      • mewabe

        Yes, CNN finally made it a couple of days ago to the main camp…
        It might not be over, especially with Trump, but I think the veterans added some important weight to the pressure exercised by the water protectors.
        It is beautiful to see people united in a great cause, without violence.

        • I saw it on NBC a few times, though I’m abstaining a bit from the news as a time waster, but still like to be informed. I also envision & visualize enlightened people & leaders. In doing so, it opens the possibility up for this to happen more.

          • mewabe

            Another update: I now think that this is nothing more than a delaying tactic for the Obama administration, and a way to disperse the Water Protectors, get them to go home and get the pipeline to go forwards without any more embarrassing media coverage or opposition…the company has stated that it will move forward even without a permit, and pay the ridiculously low fines.
            Good people are so easily fooled by manipulating psychopaths!

          • It is my understanding that not all people are leaving but you make a good cautionary footnote to this. I will be watching…….

          • Spiritual_Annie

            More news, but of a different, healing nature. According to John Eagle, Sr., Tribal Historic Preservation Officer at Standing Rock Sioux Tribe:

            “I witnessed something powerful and profound today [Monday] . Wes Clark Jr and the assembled veterans took a knee and collectively asked for forgiveness for the genocide and war crimes committed by the United States Military against tribal nations in this country. Leksi Leonard Crow Dog on behalf of the tribes in attendance accepted and asked for forgiveness for any hurt that might have been caused June 25, 1876 when the Great Sioux Nation defeated the 7th Cavalry. The last thing he said to the veterans was, ‘… and today we forgive and ask for world peace.’ All the veterans replied in a single unified voice, ‘WORLD PEACE!!!!’

            “The Native Veterans filed through the ranks, shaking hands and giving each other hugs. There were alot of warriors with tears in their eyes.”

          • Awesome! I pray & visualize world peace every day.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            More news, but of a different, healing nature. According to John Eagle, Sr., Tribal Historic Preservation Officer at Standing Rock Sioux Tribe:

            “I witnessed something powerful and profound today. Wes Clark Jr and the assembled veterans took a knee and collectively asked for forgiveness for the genocide and war crimes committed by the United States Military against tribal nations in this country. Leksi Leonard Crow Dog on behalf of the tribes in attendance accepted and asked for forgiveness for any hurt that might have been caused June 25, 1876 when the Great Sioux Nation defeated the 7th Cavalry. The last thing he said to the veterans was, ‘… and today we forgive and ask for world peace.’ All the veterans replied in a single unified voice, ‘WORLD PEACE!!!!’

            “The Native Veterans filed through the ranks, shaking hands and giving each other hugs. There were alot of warriors with tears in their eyes.”

          • Awesome!

  • Spiritual_Annie

    Neale,

    I think that getting back to discussing the ideas in CWG is an excellent idea. The ongoing, repetitive discussions about whether or not CWG is a religion, what your motivation is in sharing your CWG experience, or if beliefs are beneficial have been debated to the point where I no longer engage in them on this forum. In my mind, CWG itself makes the answers to those questions moot as it clearly states, as do you, that one should take what fits or works for them individually and leave the rest, and that’s perfectly fine because it helps each of us come to a better understanding of Self.

    “Looking in a serious way at the topics raised in the CWG material can only produce benefit for everyone, whatever their point of view, if the only outcome is that the discussions make more clear than ever to everyone what their point of view is.”

    For me, this reflects one of the core messages of CWG: Like it or don’t like it; believe it or don’t believe it; consider what it presents and whether it works for you or not; keep the parts of it that resonate with you and leave the rest (though I’d recommend reconsidering those parts again later). I haven’t bought into CWG “hook, line and sinker,” though it may appear that way to others. I personalize the messages in the books, which is part of what attracts me to them, because that’s perfectly OK, too. For example, I use the term “God” or “Divinity” so that others can relate to what I share and because I’d like to redefine what those terms mean. For me, when I read “God” in CWG, I mentally substitute my own definition of that “ineffable light” that existed before matter was created that exists in absolutely all of physical existence. It is the energy that makes subquantum particles appear as possibilities and probabilities rather than absolutes, that animates the atoms of which all things are formed including those we classify as inanimate, that causes the creation of the mind, consciousness, sentience and the Soul. It is the energy that is the All of Everything because without it, nothing material would exist. And I know that my own definition doesn’t negate the parts of CWG that I have attached meaning to in the development of my own spirituality.

    As for your being a “leader,” I believe you are, but not in the way most mean. I don’t see you as the leader of a religion (which CWG is not) or even of a New Spirituality. I see you as someone who leads individuals to a different understanding of what it means to be fully human, in body, mind and Soul, as those understandings were gifted to you in your CWG experience. You help lead the organizations that you have started, but only as one individual in a group of leaders. I can’t think of anyone who is involved in those organizations who puts you so high on a pedestal that your word is considered gospel. And I certainly don’t consider myself one of your disciples, but rather an equal member of a group of individuals who have found meaning in your CWG messages. I’ve known you to listen to and carefully consider those whose ideas differ from your own, and heard you admit to your own struggles to live CWG in your own life, imperfectly.

    It’s easy to get distracted by some of the more out-of-the-ordinary concepts in the CWG materials, like HEB’s, the concepts of nonlinear time, and others. But I don’t see those as the core messages. I prefer to focus on ideas such as all emotions being rooted in either fear or Love, that God requires nothing of us, that no one acts inappropriately given their perspective of the world, and that each of us are capable of tapping into and having our own conversations with Divine Energy. CWG is, for me, a process of getting in touch with my own potential, and the potential of all humanity. It’s an ongoing journey that, layer by layer, leads me to deeper understandings of myself, why I’m here, and how I choose to be who I am. Since who I am evolves, so do the meanings I get from the CWG materials. That’s why I re-read the books on a regular basis, because ideas I wasn’t ready to understand during previous readings may later make more sense to me, and ideas I thought I understood may later reveal a deeper meaning.

    I also think it’s important to relate the core messages of CWG to current events in order to keep them relevant, rather than turning into stagnant dogma as happens in religion. I have found some of your most compelling articles those that point out how the ideas in CWG could change humanity in ways that would sustain life and get us off of our current path of destruction. Subjects like starting with peace within ourselves as a means of creating peace in our world, focusing on commonalities rather than differences, that what each of us think, say and do affects those around us and the world at large, and that we are in control of the choices we make in our thoughts, words, and deeds.

    Out of all of the things that I’ve lost on my journey that started with disability and eventually led to homelessness, one of the things I miss are my copies of the CWG books. I’m the type of reader who always has pens, highlighters and a notebook at hand, using different colors for different readings, the dates of which I record on the inside cover. I enjoy seeing what I used to think and feel compared to how I now think and feel. And yet, it’s also been a joy to re-read the books anew, without my history attached. It’s a journey of rediscovery of a well-trodden path but with new scenery all around, as when the seasons change.

    I don’t mind that people disagree with me here. What I do mind are individuals who repeat the same arguments in the comments of each one of your columns regardless of the topic, who try to control the conversation for their own ends, who “cherry pick” part of what I’ve said said while ignoring other points I’ve made, or who ascribe to me motives which are untrue. I prefer discussion and discourse to debate, but understand that this is an open forum and I can choose to ignore them.

    Maybe it’s a time of new beginnings; of getting back to basics. I know that’s where I am in my own life, establishing myself without a roommate in a town I barely know (but at least now I can see it, having gotten my glasses last week after 14 months without), where I can be anything I choose within my physical limitations. In that light, I’d appreciate a renewal of the core messages of CWG here.

    Love and Blessings Always ,
    ~ Annie

    • Victor

      Wonderful insights, Annie.

      I know you don’t mind too much in it, but by the way: I agree with what you’ve said! 😉

      Hugs and blessings!

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Victor,

        Thank you. Yours are some of the comments I look forward to reading. 🙂

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

    • Beautiful Annie, well said.

      Neale has a wonderful new book out called “Where God & Medicine meet.” Plus “CwG book 4 Awaken the Species” about living like the HEB’s do, comes out in March. So plenty more of the material to read, study & enjoy.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Thanks, Marko!

        I look forward to reading both. As I’m disabled, but no longer suffer from my disabilities, I’m curious about the first. As someone who self-identifies as a Spiritual Activist, feeling called to awaken people to the spiritual dimension of their own be-ing, the second sounds very intriguing. I suspect they will become as well-marked and dog-eared as the rest of the books.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

  • Patrick Gannon

    Someone mentioned my “conspicuous absence” below, but for whatever reason, I don’t get notifications of new articles here. I am generally motivated to check for new articles when reviewing Neale’s Sunday CwG newsletter. I seldom have time to respond on the weekend.

    Can someone tell me if there is a way to do keyword searches on the entire archives here? With a little work, I can probably find the article about denigrating atheists and agnostics that I refer to. That post elicited contrary responses from more individuals than just myself. I don’t have time to start wading through them month by month, right now, but will try to do so later.

    My concern has been with beliefs, and as long as the focus here is on a set of beliefs, I see no reason why they should not be repeatedly challenged. In his Sunday’s CwG newsletter this week, Neale insists that “we must change the beliefs of the young” and says we need to do so by changing our own beliefs first. I simply disagree with this. I contend that we must teach the young and everyone else to question their own beliefs. Heck you can’t change beliefs, even if that was a good idea, without challenging the beliefs you already hold. Neale’s frequent questioning of legacy religions, and pointing out their many flaws and weaknesses, is a way to get us to question our current beliefs, but this is clearly done in hopes that we will change those beliefs to what he believes. However, there’s no more evidence for his beliefs than those of any other religion (and I can’t help but see it as a religion). Why should we change beliefs without evidence that the new beliefs are valid, even though we’ve disabused the old beliefs? I think it’s better to keep an open mind and try to avoid beliefs that are not supported by evidence, and nobody has made much of an attempt to tell me why I’m wrong. It’s easy enough to ignore me, but my questions frequently evoke discussion, so I must be striking a nerve that needs to be itched. When “beliefs” are supported by evidence, then they are no longer beliefs, and faith – pretending to know things you don’t know – is no longer required.

    I think it’s a bit disingenuous to pretend there are no religious overtones in CwG. The “G” after all stands for “God.” Religion is defined as: 1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2. a particular system of faith and worship. 3. a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance. All of these definitions can be applied to the “New Spirituality” and to New Age God movement, to some extent. Neale, you made it religious when you used the word “God.” There’s no way around that. Whether it was your intent or not, you created another split – a New Age Christianity Lite sort of religion. I left legacy Christianity for CwG, and there would have been little difference if I had left it for Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. It was another religion, another faith system – one with beliefs that I liked a whole lot more… but in time I had to acknowledge that there was no more evidence for your god than for the Pope’s god. That doesn’t diminish the wonderful ideas that you and every other religion has to offer – almost all of which come down to the simple words: ‘do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.’ However believing in things we have no evidence for is lying to ourselves in my view, and I look at the world and all the billions of people lying to themselves, pretending to know things they don’t know, and I can’t help but wonder if it is beliefs themselves that have put us into this position we find ourselves in. I am vilified for challenging beliefs, which is exactly what one would expect if the theory of cognitive dissonance is correct.

    It’s also disingenuous to say you healed your heart, when you had an operation that took advantage of the latest technical and scientific accomplishments, and when you speak here of manifesting things with our consciousness. You’ve made allusions to the quantum nonsense Chopra used to go on about. You’ve spoken of the fallacious ‘Law of Attraction,’ etc. I wouldn’t call your decision to use the latest technology evidence that your god is not real, but it certainly isn’t evidence that your god is real; and it doesn’t say much about your self-confidence in all that manifesting reality stuff. You didn’t heal yourself – the doctors and modern medicine did. To claim you healed yourself diminishes the accomplishments of those who really did heal you, in my view.

    As for blindly following leaders – humans who have taken on strong beliefs do this all the time. I’m no fan of Fidel Castro, but his insistence that no statues, streets, buildings or schools be named after him are a credit to his understanding of how cult worship begins. Spiritual leaders have sometimes been made gods while they were still alive. The Cargo Cults of the Pacific, are examples. You haven’t been one to suggest that you should be worshipped, but you present your books as holy scripture. “CwG tells us…” “God told me in CwG…” ” As we learn from CwG…” etc. This puts you in the position of prophet, and indeed you call yourself (or God does), a messenger of God in the first book. Of course that is going to raise you up on a pedestal and some people are going to follow you blindly. Humans who have claimed to have revelation from God frequently end up this way (Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc. – not to insinuate that you are demented as they were). The responses of some of those here to anyone like myself who challenges you, strike me as pretty good indication of this. (I wouldn’t have used the same words ATF used though).

    I’m sorry, but I must disagree that the “New Spirituality” is not a religion or quasi-religion. It has all the hallmarks of a religion except that congregants gather on the internet instead of a building. We get a sermon/homily, and then a group discussion, and we are reminded repeatedly that it all comes from a God that you believe in. How is that really any different from a priest saying mass? Your doctrine and dogma are far less oppressive, but it’s a belief system, just like any other religion. It worships a god, even if that god is ourselves. I loved the concept, but then I learned a little about consciousness, and I was forced to question my belief and discard it – or set it aside pending authentication by objective evidence.

    We discussed this in these pages once before – probably back before the atheist/agnostic column that ticked off a couple of us. I said it was a religion and you insisted it wasn’t, but then you asked me, ‘if it did become one, would that be so bad?’ I responded by asking you to take a look at what became of the religion that arose out of Jesus’ teaching or “conversation with God.” If my memory is correct, you didn’t respond.

    Finally, I don’t care for the insinuation that I’m not playing fair, if that’s directed to me. I’ve defended my points, using sources, as called for. When I have a little more time, I’ll start browsing through the articles about a year ago, looking for the article you wrote that, in my view, and that of at least one other person I recall, denigrated agnostics, and particularly atheists.

    In order that I don’t get mischaracterized, let me make it clear that I love many of the concepts you put forth in CwG and I’ve certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of the material you’ve provided that takes the wind out of the sails of legacy religions. I am confident that you really and truly do want to help mankind. I am suggesting that you are going about it in the wrong way, by suggesting we need to change beliefs – to your beliefs. I think there is a better path, one of questioning our beliefs and attempting to avoid unsupported beliefs, and if you came to agree with that idea, you might be able to do even more good. You speak of the millions of people who claim CwG helped their lives – but surely there are many more millions, or even billions, who would claim the same thing about other religious texts. Is there a place for a “prophet” to take the world by storm, by insisting that beliefs might be bad for us, and that we should require objective evidence before taking them on?

    • A true friend

      If there is any good in this internet “church” is that so many people who claim to have been through a lot have found each other and now they know that they aren’t alone. I don’t suspect them to be lying. Seems that a lot of people have been inspired by Neale’s misfortune to move foward. Other texts have reportedly done the same thing.
      I guess this types of stories fill the mind’s desire to strive for more. While Neale’s books focuses on a lot of metaphysics I wouldn’t doubt that people would benefit from having a culture more orientated towards love and sharing. I hope they can help each other and manage to have a far more satisfying life than they have currently experience.

      • Jethro

        It has been wonderful talking to you the past couple of days. You have said some very kind and very understanding things. You have taught me a lot about myself and I want to Thank you for being here! I look forward to reading your future posts.

    • “it doesn’t say much about your self-confidence in all that manifesting
      reality stuff. You didn’t heal yourself – the doctors and modern
      medicine did. To claim you healed yourself diminishes the
      accomplishments of those who really did heal you, in my view.”

      Ya, I think this is an unfair point you make. It’s also like the spiritual people that tell me all life is an illusion & unreal. Well in theory yes, but if I wack you over the head with a frying pan, your illusion is going to hurt! Theory & demonstration of a theory is what I’m talking here.

      Much of the CwG theories can’t currently be proven. That doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t be in the future. Only time will tell. CwG talks about the LOA, manifesting etc. but our understanding & demonstration of it is still pretty weak. Most people on this planet can’t self heal major illnesses & car accidents etc. There are exceptions & miracles as they call it. Neale’s book “Where God & medicine meet” discusses this any a host of other ideas.

      Yet because I can’t solve a math equation does not mean the equation is incorrect, only my current understanding of it. Same with all this spiritual stuff.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Demonstration of a theory is exactly what I’m talking about too. Until we can demonstrate that our beliefs are verifiably true, then we are just kidding ourselves. When we can map every neuron in the brain and determine whether there are any outside forces acting on them, then we will have objective evidence that consciousness or a soul, or something outside this physical matter reality exists and somehow interacts with it. That will be a hitting of the head with the proverbial frying pan. Till then – we just don’t know.

        You suggest that much of the CwG theories can’t currently be proven. Why then should we believe them? Our brains know they aren’t proven, yet we are to insist that we should believe them anyway? How can that cognitive conflict be good for our mental health? You are absolutely correct that at some point in the future we may learn that consciousness is something that can exist outside the brain and can survive the death of our physical bodies. Till then, what’s the sense in believing it? The brain knows it doesn’t know. What’s wrong with a little patience?

        The problem is that the growing evidence is not in favor of proving this supernatural stuff. I’m reading a book by theoretical physicist (who specializes in quantum mechanics – unlike Deepak Chopra!!!), Sean Carroll called “The Big Picture” and among other things, he talks of many ‘out of body’ experiments in which researchers placed objects outside the patient’s view, but which they should have seen if an OoB event was taking place, and these items are never, ever identified. It’s all taking place in the brain. The evidence we have gathered, and continue to gather does not support the idea of a greater consciousness. I am on the constant lookout for such data, starting back when I used to believe in such things and wanted to debate with others who disputed my views, back when I was preaching CwG. It turned out that they were right, and just like people here, I got all upset that they kept challenging me – till I did the work and realized that they were quite probably right, but that in any event there was no convincing evidence to work with.

        I would like to see some “exceptions & miracles” that are fully documented by science. I keep looking for them. I’m not sure I get your metaphor with math equations. If the equation is correct, someone has objectively shown it to be so. Nobody has objectively proven psi effects to exist. James Randi has a $1M prize that has gone unclaimed for 2 decades, for the person who can objectively prove some psi effect. Many have tried – all have failed. In this case, we have no objective evidence that the “math equation” or psi effect or whatever, is valid, so your inability to solve it is meaningless. If psi effects are not valid, neither you nor anyone else will ever be able to “solve” them.

        Why isn’t it better to “think that” something might be true or false to some degree of probability, than to “believe in” something that most definitely has not been objectively proven? If I think that psi effects actually exist, with say a probability of about 5% (which is about where I sit), then I’m not creating a conflict in my brain. You can challenge me and we can discuss the probabilities, but not the belief. There need not be any belief. Once people believe, they tend to stop challenging the belief and seek out only information that aligns with or supports their belief. This is a well known condition.

        • “You suggest that much of the CwG theories can’t currently be proven. Why then should we believe them?”

          We don’t have too! The reason we might is, that it adds value to our lives in a positive way. If it resonates with us as a personal truth we can use it. If not don’t. It’s pretty simple. We can pick & choose what parts of CwG we like & use or not use.

          As for spiritual & psychic phenomenon I’ve read several of Randi’s books. I liked them & his million dollar challenge.

          If you buy into the idea that there is nothing beyond our physical bodies & death is, in fact, the end. So be it.

          Living as if life is eternal & giving people that positive uplift hope & happiness contributes to the wellbeing of that individual now, & thus their experience. It works whether it’s true or not.

          God can neither be proved or disproved.

          For arguments sake if I die & that’s it, and I’m in endless state of nothingness, so be it.

          However, if this is true, my life lived as it was eternal, does me well at this point & if it is true, that we live beyond this body, well what a adventure we have!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Marko I think you are the first person here to offer up a reasonable and potential rebuttal to my hypothesis. I don’t necessarily buy it, but It is one I have known of for some time, but figured I’d wait to see if anyone else came up with it – though I’ve hinted at it a time or two.

            The rebuttal, extrapolating from your words, is that, perhaps it is good for us to lie to ourselves. Perhaps believing things our brain knows aren’t true, or that it has no evidence for, helps some individuals deal with life because they can’t face the probable reality. In this forum, the probable reality is that consciousness does not survive our death. In other forums, the probable reality is that there is no Yahweh, for example, given that the foundation for his existence has been washed away by science.

            We know that prayer can act as meditation and we know meditation can be good for us, as it reduces stress, focuses our attention, and takes us away from our troubles for a brief time. Perhaps, for example, praying to a being that one’s brain knows it has no evidence for can still be beneficial. I have waited a long time for someone to make this assertion. It is a point against my hypothesis.

            On the flip side however, we have the evening news. We have millions of people who believe things that their brains know they have no evidence for and many of these people are angry, filled with angst, stress and anxiety which may well be caused by the cognitive conflicts to which I have referred. These effects seem to be greatest in places where scientific knowledge has deeply undermined ingrained beliefs. The poor peasant farmer in the middle of Africa may not suffer these cognitive conflicts because he has no idea that there was no six day creation, no 2-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt, no conquest of Canaan, and that there is no objective evidence that consciousness continues after our death. Not knowing these things, he or she does not experience the same cognitive conflict, I propose, as a well-educated Saudi terrorist whose angst, anger and anxiety brings him to fly into a building.

            Indeed the neurological evidence suggests this very thing. Anger is a byproduct of the cognitive conflict according to some researching this. (See ‘cognitive dissonance’ Wikipedia as a starting point). That anger has been demonstrated on this page many times, and I can tell, or it seems to me, that those who exhibit it most, seem to be pretty well educated, which supports the hypothesis.

            It may be a case of lesser of evils. Is it better to lie to ourselves or to face the probable realities and all the fears of death (for example) that many people hold? I don’t know the answer, but I’ve been asking the question, and I’ve been running my own amateur scientific laboratory in this and other forums, and finding that challenging beliefs does indeed create angst, stress, anxiety, etc. that frequently manifests as hostility to the one challenging the beliefs. The more open minded individuals are, the less angry they seem to get when challenged. You and Mewabe are good examples of this.

            I don’t “believe” that holding beliefs is bad for us, but I still maintain a high degree of confidence in “thinking” that this is so. However I will acknowledge that it is possible that for some people, perhaps, lying to themselves is the best solution. That seems counter-intuitive. Most lies to ourselves are probably not good for us. Psychologists usually try to get people to dig into their beliefs and face their fears, rather than hide from them, so it’s debatable that holding beliefs that cause cognitive dissonance can be good for us. It’s probably better to face fears, rather than hide from them; but for some people, self-delusion may be the better path. I’m pretty doubtful of that however, but at least it is a reasonable objection to the hypothesis.

            Neale has given us a number of ways to hide from our fears of death. Is believing these things better for us than facing the far greater probability that death is the end? It’s not comfortable to do so, but then there’s none of that angst and anger that comes from beliefs contradicting the brain. Speaking for myself, that at least, makes me more sane and much less angry. All the people close to me in my life tell me how much less angry I am than back when I was full of unsupported beliefs.

            But thank you for one of, if not the first, halfway decent response to my hypothesis, which you managed to make without insulting me, or making straw-man arguments.

          • Your welcome, I’m okay with holding several viewpoints at once & they can be contradictory & paradoxical. How can I do it? Simple, I’m an artist, or creative type. I also don’t like rigidity & find it is more detrimental than not. A few exceptions occur, but for the most part rigidity is a dam the slows & stops the flow of energy.

            Now you have a lot to say & you take great care & pride in digging deep into understanding these complex issues that people have to wrestle with.

            You said “I will acknowledge that it is possible that for some people, perhaps, lying to themselves is the best solution.”

            Remember you are the one saying they or we are lying. We still have a gut or intuitive feeling that life is more than just this physical world.

            The butterfly is a good example of this, the cocoon representing the physical life & the butterfly the more ethereal life in the hereafter.

            So I do not feel personally I’m lying to myself, I feel life is eternal but I understand those who don’t believe so & need proof. That proof may come & science may prove what the mystics have said. I believe that is possible.

            I mentioned my cat visiting from the other side in an earlier post. Yet certain psychic things just can’t be proved with our current instruments. That may change in the future.

          • mewabe

            The problem might be that we are using physical, mechanistic devises and methods to prove or disprove the existence of a non-physical, non-mechanist reality…These methods are great to prove the existence of gravity and the distances between planets, or to explore minute particles and DNA, but not to measure the ethereal.

            When you have psychic experiences, knowing things that you could not possibly be knowing, such as future or distant events, you don’t need scientific proofs…Native Americans healers learned about curing herbs in dreams and visions, told in their dreams/visions where to find them and how to use them. I find it extremely arrogant for the scientific community to dismiss what it cannot explain, and in that respect I think scientists can occasionally be as dogmatic as the worst religious authority.

            Rigid dogma, whether scientific or religious, is just another expression of a need to be right…and when entire careers depend on this, as they do in the scientific community, the resistance to change is even greater.

          • Patrick Gannon

            How do you prove that the “ethereal” even exists? If there are forces out there that act on our reality, then these forces can be at least indirectly observed and measured by the effects that they cause on particles in our universe. There is no evidence for any such forces.

            I agree that there are scientists who hold beliefs. Science itself does not, since science is a process. Any scientist holding a belief has to support his belief with evidence. The problem is that scientists have no evidence for these psychic phenomena. It’s not a question of dismissing what they can’t explain. – there is nothing to explain. There are no documented cases of psychic phenomena that stand up to scientific scrutiny. If such evidence exists, James Randi has a million dollars waiting for the person who can demonstrate it, and nobody has won that prize in over 20 years despite many, many attempts. There’s no arrogance involved. The problem is that there is no evidence involved either. You seem to be angry at scientists for being unable to prove that the effects of your brain are real, when we know beyond any doubt that the brain cannot be trusted to always be accurate. That’s why we need evidence. There is no “rigid dogma” aside from an insistence on sticking with the scientific method because it WORKS.

          • mewabe

            I am not angry at scientists in the least…As you might have noticed I only get angry at those who use force to impose their ways on others, whether they are governmental authorities or religious authorities.

            I cannot really be part of this dialogue because as I previously mentioned many times I also rejected beliefs long ago…yet I have what could be called a very strong intuition, and a bit more than that. I never sought any of these abilities. I understand very well that none of it can be proven or stand to scientific scrutiny…and that doesn’t bother me in the least, as I have no need to prove anything to anyone (I am not being defiant, I really mean it…as a matter of fact I freely speak about these things anonymously here, but in my “real” life only a couple of people know about some of my abilities, not even all of them).
            To me these things aren’t important…what is important is how we relate to life in the here and now. For the same reason those who look forward to an afterlife miss the point in my view. The point is, literally, here and now. This is one of the reasons why I need no beliefs. I need no beliefs to relate to the here and now.

          • Patrick Gannon

            So take your abilities to James Randi and prove them. Win a million dollars in the process and you can contribute it to the movement in the Dakotas!

            I know these abilities seem real to you, but without objective evidence, they are just unsupported claims that are of no value in determining whether such things are real.

          • mewabe

            No, that’s my point…I have no need to prove anything, didn’t I write this clearly in my above comment? I have no need for anyone to support my “claims”. I don’t make a career out of them, and only use them as a personal tool, on occasion. I also have a very strong intuition that never fails. Again I have no need to explain that either…being pragmatic, I am only interested in the fact that it works, not where it comes from or where it’s going.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I get that, but it’s a cop out in my mind. This is what most “psychics” say when challenged to prove their abilities. You personally may have no need to prove your abilities, but mankind has a need to know if these things are real, as does science. Failure to help prove or disprove the phenomenon could be considered selfish, if one believed he or she could really do these things, but failed to do so in order to help advance our knowledge.

          • mewabe

            I tend to hide these abilities because when people know they tend to get extremely needy and ask endless questions. And the more accurate the answers the more needy they get. So yes you could say that I am selfish in that regard…but this was never my vocation anyway. I am an artist, and that’s how I contribute to making the world more colorful, literally. I also hate being associated with all the people who claim to be psychic but are either fakes and wannabes or psychologically imbalanced (I don’t want to be associated with the metaphysical crowd, I heard about these people’s “golden auras” and “past lives as Cleopatra” too many times…perhaps because when living in Southern California I had too many encounters, through my ex, with such phony, narcissist people).

          • Patrick Gannon

            Or maybe you are just very good at understanding and reading people and making predictions that turn out to be accurate because of your strong intuition and ability to see through the clutter and predict likely outcomes. I think you demean your own abilities by attributing them to something outside yourself.

          • mewabe

            Who knows? It’s possible…I noticed that so-called psychic individuals, those who actually seem to have real abilities, are usually very sensitive.

          • NiFeRo

            @patrickgannon:disqus I interpret from your comments that your conviction is that events, be it esoteric or physical, needs to be proven in scientifically measurable terms, or as ‘objective evidence’ in order to be accepted as truth for you (correct me if I am wrong here). But I think the point people are trying to make here is that even science has it’s limits. There is no such thing as ‘objective evidence’ as events can only be viewed through the filter that are the senses of a person. The moment you witness something, it is explicitly subjective, simply for the reason that you, a person, observed it. Just because it appears identical in terms of occurrence to a mass of people only means that this mass of people have the same, or similar view of perceived reality.

            If you look at science 100 years ago, it wasn’t possible to observe many of the things that we can today due to technological advancement. But 100 years ago, the current understanding of the universe was the ‘correct’ one, at least in accepted public discourse. Of course today, we know so much more.

            The point is that if even though events can’t be measured or observed with the scientific tools we possess today, it doesn’t mean that such events or occurrences does not happen. Simply because we have no publicly or scientifically accepted ways of measuring esoteric events does not necessarily mean that they are not ‘real’.

            A couple of months back, there was an article with the heading ‘There IS life after DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study’ published in, among others, the British paper Express, detailing how clinically dead people were correctly, and in details describing events that occurred after a patient’s heart had stopped and there was no possible way, with our current scientific tools, to explain this event.One of the researchers are quoted as saying:

            – “In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat.
            “This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. ‘

            This, to me, are events that surpass our current, scientific understanding of life and death, and even though there is no way of ‘measuring’ this event, it did happen without any doubt. Unless it is of course a scam, but that would put the newspaper a risk of lawsuits, and in these money-obsessed times, no newspaper would want that.

          • Patrick Gannon

            OK, I’m with you up to this point:

            “The point is that if even though events can’t be measured or observed with the scientific tools we possess today, it doesn’t mean that such events or occurrences does not happen. Simply because we have no publicly or scientifically accepted ways of measuring esoteric events does not necessarily mean that they are not ‘real’.”

            That is correct. It also doesn’t mean that they are real. All we know for sure, is that we don’t know. Yet. (And some things may be unknowable). In this case, you didn’t dig deep enough.

            I recall the article that you are speaking of. The title is clickbait nonsense. First, it’s not a scientific journal. Second the study at University of Southampton did not say that it confirmed life after death, it proposed that the brain lives longer without a heartbeat than previously thought and based on death “as we have defined it.” This researdch does not have anything to do with life after death.

            Nof even parapsychologists buy it:

            “Some parapsychologists are not so impressed.

            I contacted Dr. Caroline Watt,Senior Researcher at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at the University of Edinburgh.

            She told me that the objective verifiable test of awareness was hidden images on shelves. 140 cardiac arrest survivors were tested. Only one gave an account of awareness.

            He didn’t identify the pictures, he described the defibrillator machine noise. But that’s not very impressive since many people know what goes on in an emergency room setting from seeing recreations on television. Dr. Watt calls this a “non-convincing account from a single patient”.”

            I’m sorry but this is a perfect example of people believing what they want to believe and shoddy journalists willing to give it to them. I’m certainly open to objective evidence, but this proves nothing and is presented fraudulently, which brings into question the credence, honesty and reliability of both the journalist and the publication.

            Try again.

          • Yes that makes sense to me. Good points!

          • Patrick Gannon

            I know the language is strong, but it does strike me as lying. When our brains know that we have no objective evidence for psi effects like cats visiting us from another reality, then believing such things happened, are in direct contradiction to what the brain knows. It knows that it doesn’t know if this is possible because it has no objective evidence for it. Cats visiting from another reality defies everything we know about our natural world. I’ve read a bit about the brain, and it can and does create all sorts of things that aren’t real. We know this beyond any doubt. It’s almost certainly a dream, vision, delusion, whatever term you choose. It’s a byproduct of the brain.

            Certainly I understand that you don’t think you are lying to yourself. I didn’t think I was lying to myself either when I held these unsupported beliefs – but I was; and it wasn’t easy to admit it.

            Psychic phenomena involves something from outside our space/time ruleset affecting the particles that all experimentation and observation indicates can only be affected by observable (directly or indirectly) and measurable natural effects. Until we can prove that there is a force outside of us that operates on the particles in our PMR (physical matter reality), then we’re kidding ourselves that such a thing exists. Mapping the entire brain will probably put this issue to rest, but we don’t have the computer power yet.

            I think it’s fine to “hope” for such things, but I still think that at least for most of us, believing in things we can’t support is not helpful or healthy. I am willing to be convinced otherwise though, if the evidence arises to do so.

          • Pat, I know of several people that have had premonition dreams of the future that came true. No machines or science or technology can measure that,… yet. Mewabe I believe has had such dreams too. I have not. Not yet……

            But before we go any further, if there is something I missed in all these comments or you would like clarification on any points I made, or any further thoughts, please start at the top of the page with a new comment, it’s becoming tedious to find these comments buried deep on this page.

            I don’t want you to feel I’m not answering any of your inquires, when in fact I simply may have missed them in all the added comments buried deep down here in the well.

            I do enjoy the dialog we are having, it’s all in good fun & illuminating.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Understood, and agreed. I too, attempt to answer any responses to me, and the format this blog uses is not very user-friendly when it comes to tracking discussions.

          • mewabe

            I think you nailed in in your last paragraph Patrick…your choice is working for you. You mention less anger…this is good.

            And that’s the bottom line…right or wrong, deluded or enlightened, drugged with dreamy beliefs or under the harsh lights of objectivity and reason, we each have to choose what works best for us here and now and allow others the same respect and freedom.

            Yet…we can only do this when we are sure our choice is right. And there is your dilemma perhaps: you may not just be happy knowing something works for you…you want to know that it is the right, true, scientific perspective. But you can’t…because science hasn’t yet given you an answer about the existence or non-existence of a “soul” etc…

            So you are also in doubt, perhaps to a lesser degree, as are many believers. You cannot yet be sure of anything. So all you can do is choose your “medicine”…that which works best for you, and leave it at that, and let others enjoy their own paths, as long as they don’t try to impose it on you or on society.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I think you’re missing my point, Marko. What if I’m right? What if holding unsupported beliefs causes many people angst, anxiety, hostility, anger, etc.? There’s certainly a lot of it out there. Where does it come from? Who are the people having these issues? It doesn’t seem to be agnostics; it seems to be believers.

            When I was a Catholic, it caused me angst when fundies challenged my beliefs. When I became a CwG missionary, it caused me even greater angst when those beliefs were challenged. On this site, it’s clear that I’ve created angst and anger by questioning the beliefs of New Age folks. Why does holding unsupported beliefs create this condition? It’s not just the legacy religions.

            I conceded that you made a point, that perhaps these unsupported beliefs may do some good for some people. I agreed that it was a good point, but I’m not convinced that it’s accurate. I still struggle to see how lying to ourselves can be good for our mental health. Perhaps it can, but where’s the evidence? How do we determine this?

          • mewabe

            I understand your point Patrick, and I did not miss it. I think you need to make a distinction between those who have rigid beliefs, and who get angry when these are questioned by others and when such beliefs fail them, and those whose beliefs are fluid, flexible and open, and subject to change.

            Beliefs may not be the main issues in these instances, but intelligence and personality. Intelligent people are usually not close minded…they are open to changing their minds, and actually welcome learning and knowledge. The less intelligent is bound to feel threatened by new or different ideas, and new facts, and to have a less flexible attitude.

            All beliefs are temporary tools that are no longer necessary when actual knowledge supplants them. In the absence of such knowledge (such as having proof of the existence of an afterlife), open-minded, fluid beliefs or keeping one’s mind open to the possibility of an afterlife cannot really do much harm.

            I have mentioned before that I never sought to have beliefs but direct spiritual experiences based on attempting to attain a state of pure being (the kind one achieves in meditation or natural, effortless contemplation)…again my approach is zen and taoist…not about theology or beliefs.

            I suppose that people who have strong beliefs might experience inner conflicts when these beliefs cause them to have specific expectations. For example, some Christians who loose a person they love also loose their faith, and get angry at their version of God, whom they believe should be as a protective father. In these cases the “father” failed…the belief failed, and they respond with anger.

            The problem in the above example is really psychological. No adult should, in theory, be needing a “sky father” to watch over him or her and for protection. This is what I meant when I wrote that one of the problem might also be personality…not a defect, but a lack of maturation, perhaps due to a less than ideal childhood, which seems to be a very widespread problem.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Those are good points, Mewabe. Only in my experience, it is people who are more intelligent, who do have knowledge they’ve obtained regarding the realities of our universe, and that contradict their beliefs, who seem to exhibit the most anger when challenged. The guys who flew into the twin towers in NY were intelligent and educated. I can generally come up with a rough estimation of intellect based on how one writes and/or expresses him/herself.

            I would agree that those whose beliefs are fluid, flexible, open and subject to change are not the people who have this issue. These people tend not to be so hostile and angry in my experience. This is a point in favor of my contention. Perhaps there is a floating scale…

          • mewabe

            Are you sure about intelligence and beliefs? Look at the Bible belt in America…not the most educated or bright folks, generally speaking (am I prejudiced?), and very strong, inflexible, literal beliefs! How about the “Army of God”, a terrorist group that, based on Christianity, supported the assassination of Doctors who performed abortions, and of the bombing of clinics? I see little intelligence in these individuals.

            Generally speaking, Christians and Muslims have never read their holy book, or not completely, and cannot understand and explain much of it…to any challenging question, they refer you to the book or state that the ways of God are mysterious, or some other ridiculous cop out. That’s not intelligent, an intelligent person could make a very strong argument to explain his or her beliefs.

            This is why I think that the more intelligent the person, the less rigid or literal the belief (or no beliefs whatsoever). A Case in point would be Joseph Campbell…I think he believed in some sort of divinity, but his understanding was very open and fluid, and actually intelligent, as he understand the meaning of mythology at a deep psychological level.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I admit, that is a very valid point. Perhaps I’m thinking in terms of intelligent people because of debating experiences with a few people I think are pretty intelligent but who also became very angry and hostile at having their beliefs challenged… Perhaps these people are not as intelligent as I thought! Hmm. Very good point.

            Indeed in other forums, I am constantly castigated and reminded of the Hell that awaits me for failing to believe in the correct Abrahamic god and all his rules and regulations as determined by his church on earth. Many of these people can barely string a sentence together, so you have a very good point.

            In fact, what you say does make sense, given that a great many of the brightest minds on earth are atheist or agnostic. I’m going to have to think about this a bit…

          • Jethro

            Hey, I live in the Bible Belt!

            Born and raised Californian. People here, like everywhere else, are inclined to go with the majority. It’s a survival technique. I cannot call them unintelligent… I can call them uninformed. They don’t really need street smarts here. I enjoy that most of the time, while I’m not opposed to the occasional rant about backwoods rednecks. They’re good people for the most part. I’ll tell you this, if I’m in need of help, I’d rather be here than California!

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Good points, mewabe.

            I, too, have found that people who are more intelligent are more open to incorporating new information into their flexible beliefs. And while I agree that unhealed wounds can cause one to cling to a specific set of beliefs to give meaning to their experiences, I have found that those who do the work of healing their wounds are more accepting and flexible. It seems to me,from those I’ve met, that it’s a byproduct of the healing process.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • mewabe

            I agree Annie, most unhealed wounds cause mental rigidity, because then rigid beliefs are used as a defense against feeling one’s own pain. People who heal, whose hearts become more open and less fearful, also have a more open mind. Unhealed pain stiffens and shrinks the human psyche.

          • A true friend

            Hey Patric I’d love to see some of your input in more off this new age stuff.
            www dot iisis dot net/index.php?page=Walter-Semkiw-William-Walter-Neale-Donald-Walsch-Reincarnation-Past-Life
            To make it short this site is a case study of so called reincarnation cases.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I will have to take a closer look at the full website, but the page you pointed to certainly doesn’t include any objective evidence for reincarnation.

            The page says at the top: “Please Note: Neale Donald Walsch, of Conversations with God, Supports the Reincarnation Cases in this Section” A couple of those cases are himself, including a stint as ministers and spiritualists in prior lives. I would like to hear from Neale as to whether that is true. Neale do you claim to be Rev. William Walter and Andrew Jackson Davis? I haven’t read all your books, but can’t recall any specific discussion about your personal reincarnation “experiences,” though “God” told you that you’d had many, many lives – hundreds if I recall correctly.

            When I hear of such sites, I start by checking out the people who run the site or research. This one is based on the work of Ian Stevenson, a (deceased) researcher at Univ of VA, not too far from where I live. He worked alone at the university and was apparently not taken seriously by other scholars or researchers. His lifetime work failed to produce anything that could be called “compelling” evidence as he admitted himself. There is a very thorough review of the man and his work at skepdic dot com/stevenson dot html, but I’ll post the summary provided by Robert T. Carroll, Ph.D. who has pretty impressive credentials as an investigator of these sorts of phenomenon:

            “Those who want to believe in survival of a personality after death will likely ignore the weaknesses in Stevenson’s methods and praise him for his meticulousness, his devotion to detail, his zeal to get every claim verified or disproved. For my part, I have to agree with Stevenson’s own assessment of his work: he’s provided evidence, but no compelling evidence for reincarnation. I see no way to move forward using his methods or his data, so I see his work as a colossal waste of time. On the positive side, however, I agree with him that past life regressive therapy, which uses hypnosis, is rife with methodological problems, not the least of which is the problem with suggestion contaminating any evidence that might be uncovered for a past life. Hence, past life regression cannot provide good evidence for reincarnation. Neither can collecting more stories from children who claim to have lived previous lives unless better methods of documentation, questioning witnesses and alleged experiments, and verifying claims are developed.”

            Stevenson clearly didn’t convince the scientific community including most of his colleagues at UVA. I was regressed once and came up with images as I was guided and prodded by the facilitator, but there was nothing in the experience that could possibly be verified as being anything other than the product of my imagination. It wasn’t convincing, and wasn’t worth what I paid for it. These guys charge a fair amount of money for a session – like $275 for a Tele-Reading with Kevin Ryerson who is on the IISIS site. New Age, like religion, is a money-making business!

            It seems to me that if reincarnation as researched through past life regression, was real, that we’d have uncovered incontrovertible evidence by now. Someone would have come up with a past life, wherein they buried something hundreds of years ago, describe it in full detail, and we dig it up and it’s there; and has been undisturbed since that time. I know of no such cases. I used to follow this stuff as a big fan of Robert Monroe; whose own “evidence” also failed the “compelling” test. I admire the attempts on the parts of these men to try and research the subject using the scientific method, but their research should have produced much better results if the phenomenon was real. You come up with a name – you do some research and find someone with that name and “bingo” we have a match – or far more likely – a coincidence. It’s just not convincing unless you want it to be.

            I think it’s great that this research continues, but I don’t expect to see any significant (i.e. compelling & objective) results out of it – but I will be quite interested if that changes.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            mewabe, my friend,

            Quite well put. If only humanity could reach the point where we accept that we are entitled to choose what works for us, and the right for all of us to make our own choices in that regard, rather than trying to convince or convert others to their choice because they believe it’s the “right” choice. It’s called respect, which seems rarer these days.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • mewabe

            Thank you Annie 🙂

          • Jethro

            Hello my friend Patrick, as I am someone in and out of some beliefs while searching for understandings that I use to try and have a better attitude towards the disfunction of, well, pick something. I can’t drive more than two blocks without wondering where the kindness has gone. Being a service tech always behind the wheel, I think you understand. I read here somewhere that you replaced Christianity with things from Neales books and then gave up those beliefs as well. I’m always on the fence about everything. I never plant my feet firm into a belief. I’m not asking a trick question or wishing to argue here, but what happened? Why did you give up on the spiritual thoughts you had? I’m pretty sure it could easily happen with me too but I keep holding on as to not lose faith in just humanity itself. I pay more attention to people than gods.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Jethro. It’s not a question of giving up spiritual thoughts. Atheists and agnostics can look at the night skies, a rainbow, a piece of art, a playing child, any number of things and have very spiritual thoughts – see Carl Sagan as an example. It’s a question of spiritual beliefs that are based on things that have no objective evidence to support them, such as personal gods, consciousness that exists without a brain, psi effects, etc.

            After reading the bible a couple times, I realized that Yahweh could not be a real god, and if he was, he certainly wasn’t a god worthy of worship. Indeed, when I started reading CwG books, I found good information from Neale that helped confirm and combat that view. I was attracted to Neale’s more feminine god and the idea that we were all part of that. It sounded wonderful (though there were pieces I did not care for) – but in addition to reading CwG and many other religious/spiritual books, I also started reading books about science, and it was only a matter of time before it became evident that not only was there no good objective evidence for Neale’s god or the other things mentioned above, but that there was quite a bit of evidence that such things just couldn’t be.

            I also discovered during the course of reading his books, that Neale, like the Apostle Paul, wasn’t getting the real scoop from so-called revelations. Paul was not told anything about evolution – insisting that sin came into the world through one man (Adam), but that’s nonsense. The science of evolution has completely done away with that fairy tale, and there was no original sin, there was no two-person DNA bottleneck. Our earliest ancestors, a pool of a few tens of thousands did not live in a paradise. They woke up every morning on the menu and struggled to survive. There was no original sin, but Paul’s visions did not relay this. Paul also thought that the end times were imminent – as did Jesus – and again in his visions, Paul was not told that this too was nonsense, given that we’re still here.

            Neale, in his books speaks of Adam and Eve as though they were real people – only he calls original sin “original blessing,” but why didn’t God tell Neale there simply was no Adam and Eve? If there was, we’d know it from DNA. Neale speaks of Moses and other prophets as though they were real people who performed real miracles. He never overcame his Catholic childhood indoctrination and was heavily influenced by it in his writing (and I can sympathize with that!), as he continued to believe in mythical figures. “God” asks him if he doubts the miracles of Jesus, instead of telling him that Jesus (in all likelihood) didn’t even exist as a historical person. God does not explain miracles to him, and in order to believe in that, there has to be a logical and reasonable explanation. Paul wrote of a celestial Jesus, and the author of Mark almost certainly turned Paul’s spiritual Jesus into a historical person, inventing a whole life and mission for him that was based on a variety of Jewish, mystery and pagan influences. It’s obviously a story, full of holes and contradictions. Mark wasn’t worried about historicity – he was making up a story and planting it in a historical background. When you were a kid, did you read the “We Were There” books? These were books based in a historical context, but they were mostly fiction. Remember the scene where Jesus is praying all by himself for God to lift the burden from him while the disciples slept? Jesus goes back to the sleeping disciples and wakes them up, then returns alone to his praying while they fall asleep again. Who recorded this event given that the disciples were all asleep and Jesus was alone? Mark made it up. This is one of many examples that confirms it’s all a story, and warns us that we have to use great care in assigning truth to such unsupported stories.

            The probability that Moses existed approaches zero, and we know beyond any reasonable doubt that there was no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. Why didn’t God tell Neale that his childhood heroes were mythical? Scholars today are steadily coming to the conclusion that Jesus, like Moses and Adam and Eve and Daniel, was also mythical; that the chances that he was a historical person are not zero, but very low. Neale has written about Jesus being a HEB with all sorts of miraculous powers – but nobody has ever seen any objective evidence of miracles. None of the biblical events have any evidence for them, but Neale insisted that he believes in them. That’s a warning sign of gullibility.

            Just as in the bible, God did not give Neale any information that was not already known. Jesus knew nothing of germ theory for example, even suggesting that it was not necessary to wash ones hands before eating – something Jews did out of custom, rather than because of germs they didn’t know about. Jesus if he was real, could have told people about germs and saved millions of people over the ensuing years. God did not tell Neale anything useful to help mankind. He certainly didn’t tell him anything about quantum theory, although, like his friend Deepak Chopra, when something isn’t understood yet, why not attribute it to God? All we get, just like in the Jesus story (which in time turned Jesus into a monster by insisting on eternal punishment for failing to believe in him) is unsupported beliefs and a strong suggestion that the answer to all our problems is to just switch our beliefs to his. Which is exactly what every religion before has claimed.

            As I continued to read science books, in addition to spiritual books, it became clear that one of these was far more likely than the other because one had evidence and the other did not. I floated along, and didn’t really get my panties in a wad until the column referenced above that suggested that atheists and agnostics were “damaging” to society because we lacked beliefs. That helped push me over the edge and showed me that when it came right down to it, there was no difference in the beliefs of legacy religions and New Age religion – all of it was unsupported, and both had a common enemy – that being people like me who questioned those beliefs; and that we were “damaging,” when in fact it was believers who were doing all the damage.

            It hurt to let go of those beliefs, and I struggled with it over time. Our biggest enemy is ourselves. We have to challenge ourselves. When I challenged my own beliefs, it became more and more clear that Neale’s New Age stuff was just a pipe dream without evidence to back it up… and a little research indicated just how large a multi-billion dollar business this New Age thing was. I even investigated the New Age consciousness thing from a scientific standpoint, reading Thomas Campbell’s long and detailed trilogy “My Bit TOE” (theory of everything), which attempted to provide a scientific explanation for this greater consciousness thing. I was quite taken by it for a while, but as I continued to read, more and more holes were poked into it, and Campbell wasn’t having a lot of luck convincing other scientists that his theory was viable. For those who follow Robert Monroe (Journeys Out of the Body), Campbell is the “TC” referenced by Monroe in his first book.) We’ve tested the OoB thing quite thoroughly according to science books I’ve read, and have fully discounted it. Nobody ever sees anything placed outside of their vision in bed, including things clearly designed to attract attention and be noticed. Campbell is a big proponent of OoB, but I fear he’s simply deluded himself in light of what we now know about it from a neurological standpoint.

            I saw in myself, how upset I was to have my own beliefs challenged, and it began to occur to me that the very nature of holding beliefs could be problematic, particularly when our brains hold enough information to discount, or certainly provide no support for, those beliefs.

            I began to question those beliefs and to wonder whether holding beliefs themselves might be the explanation for much of the hostility we see. Like you said – where has the kindness gone? Back when I was a kid, we only knew a fraction of what we know now. Our brains did not hold nearly as much information that contradicted our beliefs as we have available to us today. As we learned more that contradicted ingrained beliefs, the level of hostility rose, till today it is completely fair to refer to Christianity in America as “the religion of hostility to the other.” I propose that cognitive dissonance is the reason for this growing hostility. It is my hope that over time, our growing base of knowledge and information will erode those unsupported beliefs, open minds, and reduce the hostility that seems to result from holding them.

            As we’ve learned more and more about our world and how it works, it has put a strain on our belief system, because what we are discovering, by and large discards these beliefs. As far as our PMR (physical matter reality), if there is a God, it’s completely irrelevant. It has absolutely no effect on our lives. It can’t. It doesn’t interact with our PMR. Until this can be shown, any external consciousness or God, or whatever you want to call it is completely irrelevant. We can observe and measure what happens to particles, and there are no unknown forces like consciousness acting on them – or certainly none that have been discovered yet, though the search continues.

            So it boils down to – are these beliefs also irrelevant, or are they actually harmful? Cognitive dissonance theory suggests that they are harmful, and I’ve avoided that term, preferring ‘cognitive conflict’ so I don’t sound like I’m suggesting people have a mental health condition – but in fact, that’s what it seems to be. I think it’s quite likely manifested by the hostility that comes from believers when they are challenged – not just religious believers – but any belief that is not based on objective evidence. People get mad. There’s something going on in their brains, and I don’t think it’s good for us. Like Neale, I’m interested in helping people. I see him as a stepping stone out of legacy religion, but the self discovery process that leads one away from those ancient religions, should continue so as to eventually lead one away from any beliefs that cannot be supported – otherwise, I’m becoming ever more convinced that they are bad for us.

            Abandoning beliefs in gods, afterlives, psi, external consciousness, whatever you want to call it, does not in any way imply that we must lose faith in humanity. It allows us to focus on humanity instead of gods and work to help people face their fears, rather than cover them up with beliefs.

          • Jethro

            Well sir, I had too pee twice before I finished reading that!! I very much agree with most of what you’ve written. Not that I disagree with anything. I just don’t know of some of it. I cannot express how much I appreciate the time you spent answering my question. Mind you, I believe everyone types as slow as I do. I already know I’ll be here a while.

            I grew up in a Pentecostal church, 13 or 14 years of my life. Essentially my childhood. By my mid 30’s I was calling bullshit on anything a Christian had to say. My brother and I hardly talk anymore because of it and… well you know, Christians are so forgiving and stuff… Cause they know for sure that Jesus gave his life for something like… being forgiven. I find a lot of good lessons in the Bible. The Philosophies can be very useful “as I’m sure you found”, just as you found some of Neales “conversation” to be useful. You know I’m a community kind of person, so this “one world” stuff is too much for me. But if it can stop people from wanting to kill a bunch of people, well, ok. Otherwise I want to kill them first. It’s a survival response I’m sure. Not torture or anything, bullet through the skull type stuff. Then I think about the poor 40 virgins (per person) who have to put up with them and guilt gets in the way… what to do?

            The Bible leaves us with many questions. Here’s one of my favorites; The tower of Babylon. So the people of earth are going to build a tower to heaven. God was so afraid they would make it that he made it impossible to communicate. So all the languages of the earth were born. Well, where was god in 69 when the rocket landed on the moon? If the rocket landed on the moon? Hmmm. Coughbullshitcough! Ok, so everything in the Bible isn’t true. How much of anything is? Anything.

            For me it just comes down to “what works for me”. I can be a friend to anyone. I care for everyone, unless we look back to the bullet through the skull part. Then it’s not that I don’t care, it’s just I find people that don’t care for other people as damaged. Fix’em or kill’em. So I believe in pieces of different things. I believe people can be fixed! I don’t want to lose that. There’s always a new understanding to grasp.

            When I found CWG, I was setting in a rehab center. I watched Neales story and was intrigued. So I purchased the only paperback book of his I could find before spending one of a few weekends in jail that was going to have to spend. I found a person who shared my ideas in “new revelations”. So I read CWG 1,2,& 3. Book 1, was right in there! But 2 & 3… well I read them. But, book 1, that was one I could have written. Like you I get the daily email and the Saturday morning one. I look forward to “letters to Neale”. To see the problem and how Neale answers. Always something good.

            I keep coming back to this space because I believe in Neale, I believe in you, and Mewabe, Spiritual Annie (so kind is Annie!) , a true friend only seems weird but she is really quite kind, she has a question for Neale that he won’t answer! There are many who post here that give us a human perspective. That’s what we’re here for. Screw the god idea! We are god. Right? We? To go against god is to go against us? That’s what I got from Neale… I’ll let him speak for himself if he is willing, but that’s what I got.

            Thank you so much for your perspective my friend Patrick. It means a lot!

          • Jethro

            Looks like my post needs investigation….

          • Jethro

            Well my post was removed for some reason… I’ll try again later.

          • Jethro

            I really wish they would just remove the parts they didn’t like! I typed for two hours.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m working backwards through notifications, and I commented above that you may have put it in the wrong window – but I did get the notification with your post. It’s possible it was deleted because of (Coughbull$hitcough). I can’t see anything else the moderator might consider offensive. (Note – Annie isn’t kind to me! Don’t question her beliefs! LOL).

          • Jethro

            That dang cough!! Well whatever keeps the world turning. Thanks for the update. I try not to battle anyone’s beliefs, I cough$ on occasion but I cover my mouth…out of ear shot. I may have to examine someone else’s thoughts for myself later.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Hey, Jethro!

            I got a notification of your post that disappeared. With the way moderation works on WordPress, someone must have deleted it after it was posted or the notifications wouldn’t have gone out. Why is a question I don’t have an answer for.

            I see Patrick has said I’m not kind to him, and assumes it’s because he questions my beliefs. He is mistaken. When I chose to stop replying to his posts, i posted to the community at large, not directly to him. Had I posted directly to him, I probably would have been unkind, which is why I chose not to do so.

            The reasons I chose to stop replying to Patrick’s posts are many. I simply grew annoyed with his repeating the same argument over and over, even multiple times in the same column. I also got tired of his picking and choosing which parts of my comments he replied to, often ignoring what I felt were important points. He also continually reduced important events in my spiritual journey as inconsequential when they have great meaning for me. Lastly, he continually accused me of “straw man” arguments when I would turn his own logic against his stated hypotheses. None of that had to do with his questioning my beliefs, nor was I angry as he has implied. (I have noticed since then that he has admitted to basically using us as lab rats in testing his hypothesis about cognitive dissonance. That explains his assumption that my withdrawal from replying to him was about questioning my beliefs because it fits neatly into his theory.)

            Please feel free to question my beliefs. I enjoy conversation, discussion and discourse that expands my horizons or causes me to dig deeper into my own Spirituality in order to explain it to others.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Patrick Gannon

            ROTFLMAO

          • Jethro

            Hi Annie, thank you for the update on my post, I may have said something a little to gruff, I was feeling spunky. It’s done and I wrote something else.

            I remember when you two had your falling out. I hadn’t been here enough to understand it. I’m sure at some point, over time, there will be a falling back in. Of course you guys may enjoy the battle. Your both good people either way. It’s funny but I’ve actually known a couple of people that I knew I could’ve been good friends with if we could get passed the arguements, the ironic view, they may have seen me as a friend they liked to argue with. How can we learn to argue without arguement anyway? I might take advantage of the situation!!

            If I have questions I ask. We humans are all the same, we’re at different levels of belief or disbelief. What’s better than finding out how or why or going on a rant about our own stuff. I’m always open too.

            Love and blessings to you.

          • Jethro

            Ok sir, new day, new train of thought, new cup of coffee.
            I have felt many times, the same way as you, about many of the things you mentioned. I have been angry many times when I have asked queastions and received scripture as answers. It irritates me when someone cannot give a common sense answer to something when it’s the only answer. The Tower of Babel, a building that God believed could be built to reach heaven, we know now that it never would have happened. It just gives an easy answer to how different languages were formed. But God did nothing when we started sending rockets to the moon. So I relate.

            Before I read Neales books, I was very angry and lost because I had my own ideas about God and it didn’t match what I was told. Nobody would talk to me, argue sure, talk no. I needed some answers, new ideas. After I read Neales books and found someone who was saying what I had been thinking, my life was changed. It wasn’t EVERYTHING that was written that I found satisfying, but I had what I needed for whatever reason. I don’t think I’ll ever levitate, or see a severed limb grow. I have a book about the asuza street revival in Los Angeles. It was the beginning of the Pentecostal denomination. Many miracles occurred, a glowing light was seen above the building. I can’t find any news papers that talk about any of the things they said. These would’ve been biblical type healings. No mention. But in the Bible and I’m sure other holy books, there are ideas about nurturing ones self and nurturing others that shouldn’t be ignored. But of course I can’t see using any of it to judge that others will go to hell or try to send them there.
            This is the flaw I find with the people who “believe”.

            Neale has embraced my spiritual thoughts in his journey and even when I don’t agree with those thoughts I find no reason to be angry about it. Every individual will get a different idea as they pass through trying to get what works for them. Some will get a wrong idea no matter what is said, it’s a human condition. I spent some time in the religion area of discus and had to leave. You can’t say anything without someone having an arguement or someone saying prove it. So I had a cup of black coffee and it was good, how can I prove it to someone who prefers cream and sugar? Ok, well it worked for me! It agrees with my thoughts about coffee. Are my thoughts about coffee flawed? Should I go to hell for having this belief that coffee is better black?…. is this silly? Argueing coffee? Yes. I prefer a little creamer. The fake powdered stuff.

            I like to think there is something a little more out there that’s bigger than me. Even if it’s just nature or the thought that at a molecular level we all look pretty close the same regardless of our physical make up. It helps to remind me that I’m not the greatest thing on this planet and I’m to have some respect for all things. I don’t have to call it God. Just a personal idea of what is good or bad. And that will change. I recently said that God is not the problem with the world today, it’s the people. Those who have found a way to be evil towards others and justifying it calling it Gods word.

            If we had no God ever mentioned, the world would still argue over what is wrong and right. Abortion would still be argued, the death sentence, owning slaves, torture. We would just have to honest about our feelings towards it rather than merely stating that the Bible says it’s wrong. Whoops! I read that someone stated the Bible says it’s ok to own slaves and there are rules for owning slaves in the Bible. Well, I think it’s wrong, here and now, in my time zone, during my current life span.

            The world has created many stresses that our great grandparents didn’t have. In the name of making life easy they have made it harder and said it is good. We don’t want to let go of it either, knowing we should. Mental health condition is correct. It has created an overwhelming amount of mental health issues. I have watched people try to cope with this new age with an old religion and thought wow, this person needs some help. Honestly we all do, but we will all have to come together again to get that help. It’s the separation that has caused a lot of these mental health issues. We cannot do it all by ourselves.

            I kinda went off into my own little world here. Hope you don’t mind. Thank you for such a lengthy reply. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Jethro – this is the kind of discussion my “hypothesis” was intended to create. First – with regard to your missing post, is it possible that you had two theglobalconversation windows open at the same time? I have found in the past that it’s possible to write a post in the “wrong” window, maybe because it’s an older one, and the post fails to appear. That could be what happened.

            I completely relate to your thoughts about reading Neale’s books after leaving legacy religion. After reading the bible cover to cover a couple times, I became a very angry atheist, upset at the deception perpetrated on me by clergy, parents, schools, etc. I completely understand now why some atheists are so angry.

            My sister gave me CwG and like yourself, it had a powerful effect on me and I started reading all the books. I already had a little background on past life regression, OoB experiences, etc. that I had dabbled with in college and my early 20s, but I jumped into those books too. I became an advocate for CwG joining in, participating and contributing to the “Conversations Movement” back in 2012. My first inkling of concern came when the altruistic efforts of this group were abandoned with barely any notice, in favor of a business model based on seminars, programs, etc. This was not to be a grassroots movement, but a business. Sure you can make the argument that this was the best way to go about spreading a word, but it sure lost some of it’s genuinity (is that a word?) for me. Nevertheless I remained a devout missionary for CwG preaching the message ardently and passionately in various blogs and with friends. I bought and gave out all sorts of CDs. (LOL – I gave one to a girlfriend a few years ago, and she tells me she still uses it to put her to sleep!).

            I remember watching a video, “The God Who Wasn’t There.” You can find it on the web – very enlightening for a Christian. At the beginning of the film the narrator is showing pictures of people coming out of some sort of Christian revival meeting or something with stars in their eyes, clearly happy-drugged for Jesus. I began to realize that I had the same symptoms. I had administered a spiritual ‘happy-drug’ to myself with my conversion to CwG. (And it is a religion, or at least a quasi-religion). People who convert to other religions of any sort, often do the same thing. [Note to self – This raises another subject for study. Why do people become so enraptured when they convert to a new religion, and what happens when and if it wears off?]

            At the same time, after being beaten about the head and shoulders in some of the blogs by angry atheists (for whom I now have much more sympathy), I started reading science books, particularly anything having to do with consciousness, evolution, and physics as best I could understand it. I was sure that I would find answers to their questions and provide the evidence they asked for. I run a few miles a few times a week and I am able to read (listen via audible) to at least one book a month – often listening to the complicated ones two or three times). The math holds me back, though I can generally get a handle on the concepts. I ran into a problem with all this study…

            I learned that there was a great deal of science to call into question the idea of consciousness that I had arrived at from CwG and other New Age stuff, as well as any legacy religion concept of the soul. The more I read, the more doubt I had about my own beliefs. I noticed that as that doubt increased, my antagonism to others who questioned my beliefs began to abate. (I’m told that I became a much nicer person as I began to question my own beliefs). At some point, I began to realize there was outright fraud going on – whether intentional or not – when people like Chopra, Neale, and other New Agers started trying to leverage bleeding edge news and information (or misinformation) about topics such as quantum mechanics into their ideas about consciousness. They were leveraging the ignorance of their sheeple, which struck me as unfair and not highest version/highest vision stuff. It became evident that they were speaking freely on subjects about which they knew little or nothing. In the post Neale refers to in his article – the denigration of atheists/agnostics, as I put it – Neale seems to embrace intelligent design, a theory that most scientists would say is fully debunked – though there are holdouts like Behe who proposed it in the first place, and if he can provide the evidence, then the scientific community will be forced to consider it. When someone is pushing beliefs that violate our emerging knowledge without even acknowledging that the evidence is almost universally against those beliefs rather than for them – it brings the issue of credibility into question.

            Julia Sweeney a former comedienne for Sat. Night Live gives talks about her experiences with religion. She’s delightful – look her up. (Julia Sweeney – ‘Letting Go of God’ is a good one). She gave a talk about Chopra once, in which she talked about how she (like myself) had watched his videos and read his books and she thought he was so wonderful, just gushing all over him. She talks about how he tied all this consciousness stuff together using quantum fields and whatnot. She was so intrigued that she took a class in quantum mechanics and concluded that “Deepak Chopra is full of $hit!” I figured that out too, and eventually Chopra backtracked, telling Richard Dawkins he meant the term as a metaphor.

            By this time, I’m having all sorts of problems with my beliefs and after a hiatus from this site, I came back and began to put some of those questions to paper. I challenged the guru. I questioned the authority. This did not go over well with everyone, as A True Friend noted!

            I’m concerned about the way CwG is treated as gospel, as holy scripture; quoting from it as though it was the literal word of God, essentially creating a religion. I realized that Neale believed in things his God didn’t correct. There is almost no chance that there was a Moses, and non-religious scholars have universally agreed that the Exodus never happened – which destroys the foundation for all of the Abrahamic religions – but it was clear that Neale believed in this stuff and his god had not corrected him or warned him that we would learn of the eroded foundation. Back in the 90’s when he was writing his first book, scholars knew the Exodus and conquest of Canaan stories were myths, but the general public didn’t, so most people didn’t even realize that there was any question of the matter. Even today, we are cautious about what we teach children so we don’t offend the religious groups that depend on these and other myths to even exist. But thanks to the internet, word is getting out. We are today, in about the same place with the historicity of Jesus, that we were in back in the 1970s when the historicity of Moses and the Exodus were being hotly debated by scholars. I predict that 20 years from now, questioning Jesus’ historicity will be much more mainstream and by then hopefully we’ll have acknowledged the myths of creation, global floods, 2-person DNA bottlenecks, the Exodus and the Conquest of Canaan, and all that will be left is whether Jesus was historical – not that it matters given that the foundation has already been washed out – they just don’t know it yet.

            So, I’m being awfully long-winded here, but trying to explain how I got to where I am and why I have been so busy on this site in the past year. I raised the question of whether holding unsupported beliefs might be bad for us, and some apparently interpreted this as a personal attack on their beliefs – or so it came across to me; and I had to deal with straw-man arguments, personal insults and the like. All this helped to provide evidence for my hypothesis.

            Yes, like you, I went through this period of conversion bliss, where it was almost like being happy-drugged. Later I realized I was misleading myself, believing in things that really have no objective evidence to support them. This meant facing the probable reality that when they plant me in the ground, I will simply decompose, and that will be the end of “me,” whatever that is. (Actually I’ll get cremated). On the one hand, if I had not challenged my beliefs I might have remained stoned on happiness (though I still annoyed a lot of people around me), or I can be mature and realistic and accept my probable outcome, and deal with any fears that might give me. In my case, I don’t think I have much fear of death, given that as a scared, indoctrinated Catholic kid full of shame and guilt and fear, I wanted to die, but was afraid to because of the penalty of Hell. When I adopted Neale’s beliefs, all that went away, and gave me a greater (drugged out on happiness) desire to live, while at the same time losing the fear of Hell, which was the motivation to stick around. Thus the thing that kept me from bailing out when I was full of fear, now enabled me to bail out anytime I wanted, without that fear. I wonder if reading CwG has led anyone to suicide, having relieved the person of fears of Hell and its eternal punishment…. No idea, and not being judgemental. If you want to go, then go, with or without CwG. Don’t let fear run you.

            Before I came to CwG, I already realized Hell was a lie based on having read the bible and researching the four words the Church intentionally mis-translated to the pagan word “Hell,” along with a lot of other evidence, so I didn’t need CwG to tell me that, but it helped to confirm it in my mind. I now place much more credence on the unlikelihood of Hell based on my biblical research than on Neale’s “god” saying so.

            Is a happy-drug spirituality better than a potentially uncomfortable reality? I don’t know. Is it possible that holding unsupported beliefs is bad for us as individuals and society? Researchers who support the theory of cognitive dissonance say there is evidence to support this – but it’s not universally agreed on. This is why I asked the question. To see what other think, but it’s been very difficult to get real discussion on this subject. Researchers tell us that one of the most difficult things we can do is to be our own worst critics and to question our own beliefs. How can we ever know truth without doing this? And is it better to face the truth – that we have little or no objective evidence for gods, afterlives, psi effects, etc.; and certainly no such evidence that is compelling – or is it better to hide behind a belief in what, at this point, is essentially magic?

            I have really appreciated your comments on the subject.

          • Jethro

            We’ll address the importance of genuinity immediately. Genuinity; the measure of how genuine something, or someone truly is. From the urban dictionary. So, yup! It’s a word.😁 I’m a word butcher too. Of course this one was artisticly transformed.

            I was never really angry about deception, more about the don’t question God. Really? No questions? I, to this day, cannot have a discussion for very long with family and certain friends because of the strong beliefs they hold. I’m ok with it anymore. I didn’t leave the legacy religion, I never considered myself part of it. I tried my damndest to feel what everyone was talking about and it just wasn’t there, not for those reasons anyway. I never read the Bible cover to cover, after three or four begats I was done. I tried the New Testament and made it to acts. i just can’t get into it. I’m not saying I didn’t find interesting stuff but… well. Funny thing is I’ve read CWG 1,2,3 and new revelations. I found information that has allowed me to relate to Christian acquaintances. It’s a good thing. The ideas of God that Neale expressed gave me some freedom, my time in AA gave me freedom too spiritually thinking. Counseling substance abusers who were just getting out of prison added to my understanding of humans and more importantly myself.

            Did you know that up into the late 70’s, they were still torturing insane patients? They believed the pain made them sane. In the early 70’s doctors told my mother that they would not use anesthetics for my older sisters knee surgery because she was retarded and would not feel it. She would have felt it! This is science. Mental science, physical science… the authors of holy books are also the authors of science. Each and every thing is true when people believe it. Science told me that eggs were bad, coffee was bad and two years later or less they were good and prolonged your life. I guess if you feed a rat nothing but eggs and it gets sick, humans shouldn’t eat eggs. The mental patients, turns out when you treat them with kindness, they begin to function a little more normally. Go figure.

            I’m trying to understand people and why they believe what they believe, I don’t fall into religions per say, I study the perspective to find something for me. I give God thought, but what is God? The collective thoughts of humans? The best of their thoughts? The energy that holds everything together? What is the devil? Is it the beast? We are the beasts, our physical forms, desiring what is bad for us because it feels good. Could be. You see, I haven’t fit evolution into any of this, I don’t care if the exodus occurred or not. Does human energy cause people to heal faster? There’s a Buddhist hospital that says yes, I haven’t dove into that yet, but why do people believe it works? We understand more about the ocean than we do psychology. Human thought is still a mystery. As I look back at 50 years of my own thought, it comes down to experiences and the people I’ve been around.

            I keep hearing about Carl Sagan and know nothing about him but he sounds like an (excuse the term) un-spiritual leader. He seems to have followers or people who listen intently to his message due to people’s desire to not be religious. I’m sure people are just trying to understand themselves and their beliefs and receiving confirmation for ones thoughts is important. Carl is saying the right things for you. He may have things to say that I can use. I can tell you right now that I will not become an extremist in his thoughts anymore than I did Neales thoughts. I’m here on Neales site today because I would like to get a feel for what other people think. It’s refreshing to read from those who believe in a higher power without the Bible beatings. Human thoughts rather than organized beliefs. Isn’t that what we’re after, understanding us.

            Buy the way, long winded is ok…
            I’ll check out Julia Sweeney.
            Cremation saves a lot of real estate!

            Well it’s time for work… I’ve had to do some chores while writing this so it may show up in a change of train of thought. …kindness and honesty are always appreciated, it’s been my experience anyway. Thank you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yeah, it’s tough to read the bible, particularly the first time. It’s perfectly OK to skip the ‘begats!’ In some ways, the OT is a soap opera full of sex, rape, violence, incest, lying, cheating, stealing and murdering – much like country music! It’s worth the effort though, because then you are in a position to see that most Christians don’t understand jack about their own religion and debating and discussions become more interesting.

            The NT is actually much more interesting to read in chronological order. The books are arranged to tell a story, but if you read them in the order they were written, you start with Paul’s letters, and Paul does not know a physical, historical Jesus. Then you get Mark’s gospel and all of a sudden you have this Jesus character and what is almost certainly a fictional family, life, disciples and ministry. Matthew and Luke modified and embellished, disagreeing with each other on historical (different genealogies, different birth stories, etc.) and theological (the old law is in effect or is not) points, then John rewrote the whole thing, inventing an entirely different Jesus persona in an attempt to bring the story around to what would become the Catholic Church, wanted it to be. After that you get Acts which also knows nothing of a historical Jesus. The Revelation is placed at the end of the NT, but chronologically it falls in the middle. Some of the epistles are clearly not written by the authors attributed to them as they were long dead. When you read the stories in chronological order you get a different story and you can see how it developed over a period of about 100 years. Of course we really don’t know what any of the originals said, as we have nothing but copies of copies of copies, most from centuries later, and most have errors and contradictions.

            Are you sure you mean “Carl Sagan’ when you speak of someone un-spiritual? You may have him confused with someone else. He’s not religious, that’s for sure, but he’s certainly spiritual. I’d be surprised if many participants here who know who he is (was), would consider him to be unspiritual. He was an inspiration to me even when I was still religious. I would encourage you to find some of Sagan’s Cosmos shows. Google ‘youtube Carl Sagan Cosmos’ and see what you think.

            You mention that in the 70’s we thought people with intellectual disabilities couldn’t feel pain in the same way the rest of us do. You have to remember that it was science that determined otherwise. The good news is that the scientific process never ends. If information available now tells us this, and information later tells us that, science updates what it knows. Have you ever heard of anyone updating the bible to reflect what we’ve learned? Does it still have a 6 day creation in it, even though we know beyond any reasonable doubt that’s nonsense? Does it still have a global flood in it, even though we know that’s nonsense? Being willing to change is not a bad thing – most of the time, it’s the best thing.

            Science adapts as it gathers information. Religion doesn’t, and part of that is its reliance on “holy,” “sacred” scriptures. This is one reason I cringe when I hear Neale refer to his book as though it was scripture. I think we also have to take note that a lot of the “science” we get is filtered through press and media that have their own agendas. Science always hedges. Nothing is ever proven. If you want to disprove evolution and become a Nobel prize winner, all you have to do is find a human skeleton at the same geological level as dinosaurs. Even Einstein’s theories of relativity could one day be proven to be incorrect in some way, in which case, science would adapt and seek to explain the new information. Much of our media, like religion has no such compunctions. Anything you hear of a scientific nature from a non-scientific publication, must be taken with a large grain of salt. Even web based science publications like IFL Science must be treated with care. One of my favorite sources to keep up with what’s current in science is ‘SpaceDaily’ and their associated newsletters.

            Enjoy Julia Sweeney. She’s funny.

          • Jethro

            Man, I said I know nothing of Carl Sagan. Nothing. I’ll have to check him out. Un-spiritual could have been a wrong statement. Un-religious leader maybe?……..
            I’m watching cosmos, I found myself laughing pretty good. Not at Carl… natural selection, so when it comes to humans, who is producing more children, Intelligence or ignorance? I’m entertained and scared.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Human evolution is a really interesting subject because we are the first species that can intentionally affect its own evolution. In western countries, the birth rates of anglo-saxons are dropping while those of other ethnic groups (particularly Persian/Arabic in Europe) are growing. Normally evolution favors those that reproduce the most and have offspring that survive to pass on their genes. Presumably an equilibrium will be reached, but who knows.

            Another example is our sex drive, without which we would not have survived. When almost all children died before reproducing, a weak sex drive would have doomed our species. Indeed our population held more or less steady, with very incremental growth until we discovered germ theory, after which survival rates went way up, creating explosive population growth. It took 200,000 years more or less to get to the 2.5 billion people on earth when I was born. Today there are over 7 billion. That’s going to kill us off if we don’t get it under control. However, we evolved intellect, reason, logic, and we came up with solutions like birth control, with which to keep our evolved sex drive in check. That there are religious organizations dedicated to the extermination of mankind by insisting that use of contraception condemns one to eternal torment is not helpful.

            Your question about which is more likely to evolve – intelligent offspring or intellectually challenged offspring, seems to create quite a quandary for us if the ‘less gifted’ outbreed the rest. Evolution is not a one-way track to some greater goal. There are no goals, only natural selection for fitness within a particular environment. Anything could happen, and will.

          • Jethro

            I totally agree with birth control!!! There is a change in Europe due to religion so I understand it. Muslim people are being taught to multiply for a specific reason. I heard this from a Jewish conspiracy theorists. Makes sense.

            My comment concerning intelligent offspring or intellectually challenged offspring was pure humor. Stupid parents do not produce Stupid children thankfully. Though the experiences of the child could be negative, producing a troubled adult. I thoroughly believe better guidance for our children should be provided if nowhere else but school. It’s where the children spend most of their time. We have a lot of control in that one area. So I wonder why nobody is taking advantage.

          • Jethro

            I’ve watched about three of the cosmos series. Carl is nothing like I imagined considering how his name has been used, I was expecting someone preaching an anti-God message. It’s possible I watched the cosmos shows as a kid. I’m going to watch more of it. Maybe I take for granted knowing these things already. I thought everyone did. Could be why I and so many others are questioning the validity of so many unwarranted beliefs. It surprises me, the number of people who grab ahold of a belief and use it for themselves without study. They do it because they wish to please someone or they become afraid after hearing others talk. It becomes an emergency to be saved and hatred for people they see as “sinners” sets in. The more they learn, the harder it becomes to accept the average person. After various amounts of time, self loathing can set in because they realize there’s no way to live up to the demands they put on others…. and give up, believing they are hell bound.

            There are great lessons to be learned from religions and having a spiritual side is very rewarding. I guess I’ve counted spirituality as having to do with some form of God like thing. I’ll be rethinking that. Having an understanding that keeps us humble, because we should be, is important. A lot of people need to start somewhere, I’d rather see them start with Neales idea than the isis idea for sure. Those who find so many problems with Christianity might need Neales ideas to move out to something better for themselves, I did. If believing there is no hell allows suicide then it just happens. I was fairly suicidel when I first read Neales thoughts about hell, but I also read other things that helped me through all of that. How many, of 7 billion people, believe in hell to begin with? I began thinking about how insignificant I was in the universe one day but realized how much I was tied into it all. I made a commitment to try and be a positive experience for everyone I meet. Its a lesson for myself, not just something I do for others. Don’t get me wrong here, im not a Neale worshiper. There was many pieces of information coming at me in the same point in time. Ceremonies of Wicca, prayer of the Buddhist, astronomy was neat because I paid attention to people and how they acted, pagans following of seasons, and Native American views of nature and acceptance of different tribal members. Every one of these beliefs have great things to understand. Scientific knowledge of the universe, DNA, or everything on an molecular level… amazing. With all this knowledge we can’t seem to learn how to love each other. There use to be elders in our lives who helped us understand more things about life and people. We’ve weeded them out in our desire to be unnecessarily self sufficient. The easier we make life, the dumber we become. The wisdom has to come from somewhere. It would be nice to know why we’re not to break the Ten Commandments without breaking them. My parents were no help. Who is around to tell us about real guilt, the pain of hurting someone else, the healing effects of forgiving the seemingly unforgivable? How about the benefits of doing a job we hate or helping someone when we need so much help ourselves? Why it’s wrong to try and prove how much better one person is over another and how it’s impossible.

            People all over are searching for some kind of answers. I’m hoping they get an answer. I have come to where I’m at due to a lack of answers. It would have been a lot easier if someone would’ve just spoke from the heart. What answers a person receives in this day and time are scary. I can’t eliminate

            We seem to live in a time when people are accepting “Star Wars” and” Harry Potter” among others as holy scripture. There is so many people turning to drugs and alcohol to get away from our current reality. People can certainly do worse than Neale. You and I have had time to understand many things. We are old enough to have seen a society that once showed respect to each other, even if there wasn’t any, but it was the “right” thing to do. Today, not so much. It’s not getting any better. Anger is becoming the new religion. I HAVE met many people who have a healthy understanding of the Christian religion. They didn’t become extremists. I think my understanding of Christianity combined with a few other ideas are serving me better than ever before as it all comes down to how I feel about people and the planet. I have a little hope for both still yet.

          • mewabe

            Hey Patrick, Interesting stuff about your own journey. Reading this confirms my assumption that most people who are attracted to the CWG material have a religious background. I never had, which may be why I was never attracted to or could never relate to this material, as even the word “God” turns me off because too Judeo-Christian.

            I never for an instant thought that Neale spoke to what he calls God or any all-knowing deity, even though he sincerely believes he has. Too many mistakes in his books attest to this, even his take on WW2 and Japan, or on the origin of the patriarchy. But I will not argue with him or anyone else about it, because, as they say, it’s no skin off my nose. I allow others to believe whatever they want…as a form of respect.

            I truly do not belong on this blog, as I have written before…like you at the beginning (years ago) I questioned what I saw as a blind acceptance of Neale’s messages by some of his audience, and got some hostile responses, or was ignored. After a while everyone but a couple of people were gone, probably moving to Facebook. I hope I did not chase them away…Then I realized that my efforts were futile and unneeded…you have to allow people to be where they are, as long as they are not standing on your toes.

            What I most question among new age gurus is their total disregard for the earth itself, for the natural environment. Like religious authorities, they are almost exclusively focused on humanity and its spiritual “salvation” or “enlightenment”. I find this approach an expression of spiritual ignorance. When Neale says “we are all one”, he indeed means, and that’s how his readers understand it, “we humans are all one”, not “all life is one”. There is a huge difference.

            Without an understanding that all life is one, in other words that everything is interconnected and interdependent, we are doomed to continue destroying the global eco-system. When we finally understand that what we do to nature, to the land, the water and the air, we ultimately do to ourselves, in other words that when we pollute our environment with toxicity we hurt ourselves (a child could understand this), we might have a better chance, and finally prove ourselves minimally intelligent.

            The religious and the spiritual however have an irrational faith that causes them to believe that their God would never allow for the destruction of the human race..and those who have an irrational faith in (brace yourself) science and technology believe that these will come up with miraculous solutions to our problems and save the day, no matter how much has been destroyed, perhaps by colonizing another rock in space.

            This has been my battle here, but I might as well have spoken in the wilderness or banged my head against a wall. This simple message doesn’t penetrate the contemporary mind, especially the religious and spiritual minds that are heavily grounded in denial, (except for Annie and a couple of others who have a good understanding of their own regarding these topics, and who are the exception). And so I am giving up…at least on this blog.

            For a variety of reasons, all of them attesting to a profound lack of intelligence, humanity is set on a self-destructing course, and will fulfill its own prophecies of a catastrophic ending…it appears that nothing can be done about it, as humanity is not even concerned, and, speaking of anger, many get extremely angry at those who point at this madness, probably because of cognitive dissonance, as their cultures have given them the belief that endless growth was not only a possibility but necessary.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I wonder if some of the early participants who left were put off by the decision back in 2012 to make CwG a business movement rather than a grassroots movement. That put me off, but at that time, I was upset, but too ingrained in the beliefs to bail out then. I left later, but came back – much to Annie’s chagrin, I’m sure! (grin).

            I would not agree that you don’t belong on this blog. It’s called a global conversation, and all points of view should be entertained. I give Neale credit for not kicking out people he disagrees with or who question him and his material. I’ve been kicked off other “Christian” blogs where ignorance is blessed and anyone trying to bring insight and enlightenment is removed so as not to contaminate the well, so to speak.

            I have to confess, that at first, I did believe Neale spoke with “God” and I liked his definition of god; but it took me a bit of skull sweat and research to kick my brain into gear and see that I was pulling the wool over my own eyes.

            I have to admit that I am more “aware” of native American issues as a result of your posts here, than I was before. I read “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” many years ago, but have not paid much attention to the plight of native Americans since then – so you are raising awareness. I still think you romanticize the indigenous population more than is called for, but there’s no arguing with your argument that we are all part of nature and ought to try and work with it instead of against it.

            As for the current pipeline issue, I haven’t taken a strong stance, as I’m still unsure of what’s really going on. I have seen fake news from the protesters side as well as completely unsupported accusations, and have also read about the point of view of those on the other side, and I figure the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The thing is, stopping this pipeline is whack-a-mole. To stop pipelines, we have to stop driving carbon cars and reduce our need for fossil fuels, and then the issue of pipelines will go away. Yeah, this raises some environmental awareness, but for most people, I think they see it as a (white man guilt), Indian rights thing, more than an environmental thing that they could fix by reducing the amount of carbon based energy we use, if we all worked together. It’s like the drug war. You can chase people all over the border, or you can set up clinics, treat opioid addictions, treat people for the sadness that is at the heart of drug and alcohol addiction, and that will dry up the demand.

            I’m not suggesting that science is the cure-all, but our best hopes seem to lie there. Guys like Elon Musk who promote electric cars, and roof tiles made of solar panels, are going to help solve the energy problem. Whether technology can stay ahead of a planet that’s headed for a humanity death spiral is undetermined, but while I think faith is bad for us, there’s nothing wrong with hope.

          • mewabe

            Hope is not bad, as long as it doesn’t cause people to keep doing the same thing and expect different results…

            Technologies that would facilitate replacing the oil industry, such as plastics made of hemp and other “green” alternatives, are not allowed by the military-oil industry complex that controls our corrupt governments.

            I agree that moving pipelines away from major water might not be the ultimate solution, although it would appear to be basic common sense, but we also have to take into consideration that many of these pipelines, which have had over 8000 serious incidents since 1986, transport fracked or tar sand oil that, after having been refined, is not meant for the US but for export.

            You might want to watch the whistleblower John Bolenbaugh documentary on the Kalamazoo tar sand oil spill (Google his name, you should be able to get his website and free documentary. John’s exposure forced the EPA to demand that the pipeline company Enbridge re-clean the covered up areas and re-dredge the river at an estimated cost of $600,000,000).

            Regarding Sanding Rock, here is a statement from Elizabeth Warren. Granted, she is exploiting the situation as do all politicians, but is nevertheless aware of some of the most obvious facts:

            “I don’t know how anyone could watch the news and not be horrified by what’s happening at Standing Rock Reservation in North Dakota.

            For months, the Standing Rock Sioux and thousands of others have opposed a pipeline that many believe risks contaminating the tribe’s water supply. What have they faced in response? Attack dogs. Rubber bullets. Tear gas. Water hoses in freezing temperatures. A 21-year-old graduate of Williams College in Massachusetts had her arm nearly destroyed. And last week, the governor directed state and local agencies to refuse emergency assistance as a way to expel the tribe and their “water protector” supporters.

            The Standing Rock Sioux are not animals to be corralled – they are human beings. Good, passionate human beings who have stood together in the middle of a North Dakota blizzard this past week, and stood together for many weeks before, to fight for what they believe in. They should be treated with respect and basic human decency.”

            If you really want to know more, search Youtube for a video by Robert Kennedy Junior, who is an environmental lawyer, on the specific ways in which Energy Partners, who is building the pipeline, is breaking the law. You can also search Daniel Sheehan, a rather famous lawyer, who is Constitutional counsel at the Lakota People’s Law Project. The point is, the corrupt governor and the rogue police of North Dakota are protecting a lawbreaking corporation, that stated that it further intends to break the law by moving forward with the project without a permit from the Army Corp.

            These are facts, and rather impossible to deny.

            I do not romanticize Native Americans anymore than I romanticize nature…these are cliches. I know many naive people do romanticize Native Americans however, and they annoy me as much as they annoy Native Americans. I have many years of experience in Native American activism, and I mean much more than signing petitions, and I understand Native politics. All of my friends are Native Americans, many are activists. About their past, two things stand out about them as being different from most other cultures: an understanding that they were part of nature, and an understand of the meaning of actual freedom. Apart from that, I am well aware that they were not angels, but never was or is anyone else. You don’t have to be an angel to be granted respect and the right to live free and sovereign on the land of your ancestors!

            You might want to read the book “All our relations: Native struggles for land and life” by Winona Laduke.

          • Gross Prophet

            @mewabe, @Patrick Gannon —

            mewabe said ‘I never for an instant thought that Neale spoke to what he calls God…’.

            I’ve not read any of his books, just what has been posted here online, but even from that it’s easy to tell that Neale’s definition of ‘god’ is not the same as a Roman Catholic’s, which is not exactly the same as an evangelical’s, which is not the same as a Hasidic Jew’s, etc., etc., etc. Yet, in each case, the simple shorthand expedient of saying ‘god’ refers in a general way to the same thing — the unknowable that each senses, but can never fully express. That which is a part of, and open to, all, and which both allows and impels toward the best, the noblest, the most sublime.

            As far as a lack of perfect knowledge being ‘proof’ that it wasn’t ‘god’, remember that any thought or image is only as good as the medium through which it is transmitted. Neale wasn’t looking for perfect knowledge, or the answer to a history trivia quiz…but he did get ‘answers’ to even greater questions which are a closer approximation than many have had so far.

            mewabe, I will agree with Patrick in one thing — that you should not completely abandon this ‘conversation’ space. From your past posts, I believe you to be as familiar with that same ‘spirit’ or ‘god’ as Neale, and would miss your contributions.

            The rest of this is addressed to Patrick. I held off responding for over a week, as, frankly, I didn’t believe you to be worth any further effort, but you have stated several things just within this column’s entries that should not go unanswered.

            You have said that the reason for your ‘activity’ within this space has been that you were ‘researching a hypothesis’. I doubt seriously that anyone who has read your posts from these last two or three years believes that for an instant. You merely seized upon that as a semi-plausible explanation for your churlish, and childish, behavior. You also said that the hostility you encountered was because you were ‘challenging (their) beliefs’. I also doubt that anyone believes that. You encounter hostility because you do not dialogue honestly, and act like a jerk If someone doesn’t automatically accept your contributions as unassailable and/or irrefutable – the pattern of which is like that guy that everyone has met, but no one wants to be around, whose response to any subject that might arise is essentially, ‘been there, done that, and have an even better story to tell about it’. You don’t really care what anyone else has to say, as you are here to (in your own words) ‘bring insight and enlightenment’. If that’s not arrogant and condescending, I don’t know what would qualify.

            You encounter hostility because you really only want to stroke your own ego by attacking what you see as ‘weakness’ or delusion. You believe that your position is superior, that you have slain the dragon of doctrine, and stand upon the firm ground of reason. People like you are not even a dime-a-dozen on the internet, more like two cents per ten million.

            As far as challenging anyone’s beliefs, perhaps you should re-read the bible…particularly the verses about cleaning the beam out of your own eye. You have said that your concern, and your efforts, were directed against beliefs that were not based on objective evidence. You also said earlier in this thread that ‘Atheists and agnostics can look at the night skies, a rainbow, a piece of art, a playing child, any number of things and have very spiritual thoughts – see Carl Sagan as an example. It’s a question of spiritual beliefs that are based on things that have no objective evidence to support them, such as personal gods, consciousness that exists without a brain, psi effects, etc.’. Just what the h3ll is this ‘spirit’ of which you speak, if not a ‘belief that is not based on objective evidence’? Talk about cognitive dissonance/conflict.

            You also try to smear the semantics, to assert a vast difference between ‘believing’ something, and ‘thinking’ something. Exact words — ‘I don’t “believe” that holding beliefs is bad for us, but I still maintain a high degree of confidence in “thinking” that this is so. I don’t know what else to say about that one…I kind of think it stands (more precisely FALLS) on its own.

            Challenge beliefs? I have been inside the minds of many of the greatest thinkers throughout human history. And you offer…what? An internet video, from someone most people have never heard of? You really believe that your own journey of self-discovery is so much more accurate or exhaustive than anyone else’s, that you could ‘challenge’ their beliefs? That anyone exposed to the same information as you, yet reaching a different conclusion, are unequivocally wrong? And you don’t see how others would view that as arrogant? (Reading your account, I would say that I was about where you are nearly forty years ago.)

            I will end with a thought from @Jethro — With all this knowledge we can’t seem to learn how to love each other. So much wisdom and profundity in that one little phrase. Love — active, self-sacrificing love — is the only thing that will ever ‘save’ the human species from itself. And you will never approach that kind of love without the impetus provided by that creative energy, that life-force, that ‘spirit’, that GOD, that is itself the embodiment of ‘love’.

          • Patrick Gannon

            As always GP, thank you for the ongoing character analysis. Your contributions are always welcome and provide fodder for personal self reflection.

            Let’s see what we can find that pertains to the subject. First, it’s true that I initially raised the question about the potential harm of holding unsupported beliefs as a matter of curiosity and a proposal to be debated. Nobody wanted to talk about it, because it means questioning personal beliefs. As time went by, it did become a bit of an experiment that I expanded to other blogs I participate in, because I kept seeing the same behavior, to the point where it became predictable. My perspective can certainly be wrong, but more open minded people enter into respectful discussions and conversations with me, even when disagreeing, and less open minded people respond as you do, by making it all about me and my character – i.e. hostility to the other. Yeah – you became a lab rat, GP. I may be interpreting the evidence wrong, but as Neale says, “I don’t think so.”

            You raise the question of the meaning of “spirituality” and indeed the word has become so diluted that it hardly holds any meaning any longer. Selling scented candles and crystals is “spiritual” these days. I interpret it to mean a feeling of awe and wonder that has nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of “spirit” as a being or god. It’s a mental experience that emerges from certain electrochemical reactions in our brains. I will try to be more clear in what I mean when I use that word in the future.

            Neale creates his own words and meanings all the time. I know that for many people the words “believing” and “thinking” are interchangeable, but that is something I’d like to help change. Thinking implies putting more thought processes to work, evaluating the evidence and coming to a conclusion with some degree or range of confidence. I could honestly say that I believe the sun will come up tomorrow, but it is more correct (for me) to say that I think the sun will come up tomorrow with a probability that comes very close to 100%. I think the probability that the Abrahamic god exists is about that same distance to zero, and that Neale’s consciousness NAG has just a few percentage points of diminishing probability to support it. It’s just a different way of thinking about things. In other faith-based blogs, some who used to use the word “believe” now use the word “think” more often, and this corresponds with more open-mindedness. I joke with one of my Christian buddies, that he’s an agnostic, he just doesn’t know it yet. Believing requires little or no cognitive effort, thinking does. That’s the difference. I could be wrong, but I think that when people write, “I believe N” that the words just come out, and when they write, “I think that N” then they are putting more cognitive processes to work.

            Besides, when it comes to semantics – Neale creates whole new vocabularies by capitalizing certain words in order to give them some ‘different’ meaning, when there are already perfectly good dictionary meanings for those words. If he can play that game, so can I.

            Who have I called “unequivocally wrong?” I have certainly questioned assertions here, but called them “unequivocally wrong?” Show me an example, please.

            I’m glad you’ve been inside the minds of some of the greatest thinkers throughout human history. I don’t pretend to be one of them. I’m so sorry I’m not living up to your expectations. Try to deal with it.

            Yeah, so I’m arrogant. That doesn’t make me right or wrong. Neale is pretty arrogant as well – to assert that the god of the universe spoke to him! What could really be more arrogant than that? He must have been pretty important to the almighty!

            What I see as wrong, is your assertion to Jethro that we cannot have love without the existence of a god. Nonsense. Atheists and agnostics disprove that on an ongoing basis. You are describing a force that you claim interacts with the particles of our space/time reality, yet leave no evidence for their existence, and our research indicates that these particles don’t require any other force to explain their behavior. When we think, the charged particles in our brain create a magnetic field we can observe and measure with fMRI machines. Our thoughts emerge from particles in ways that we don’t understand yet. Our brains could be quantum computers. There’s no evidence for your “life-force” god and the brains of educated people, know that. Why should we believe in something we know we have no evidence for? How can that be good for us – other than perhaps as temporary self-medication to hide our pain – just like an opioid, and we all know where that can end up…

            In case you didn’t notice, GP, although it took a while, my little “hypothesis” has finally created some really good discussion. So far, it seems to me that the best argument for holding unsupported beliefs is that it can make us feel better – but so can drugs; so is that really the best answer?

          • Gross Prophet

            Exactly as I expected — more of nothing but lies, trying to argue the meaning of ‘is’ (you know the reference), and only obliquely addressing any of the points I mentioned. No matter how open-minded or amiable, eventually everyone will get tired of trying to hold a conversation with someone who never gives a straight answer.

            To your last (straw-man) assertion — I never said that no one could ‘love’ without some sort of ‘god’. I would say I’ll wait while you check the text again, but I know that you already know I speak the truth, because you deliberately misrepresented what I said. Simply more of the same dishonest BS you do all the time. Jesus even addressed the idea that ou offered in response, with ‘Do not even the Publicans do the same?’ Anyone is capable of normal human ‘love’…but, again, that has nothing to do with that of which I spoke.

            Take the time to re-read what I actually DID say, stop projecting all of your short-comings and presuppositions onto it, and maybe sometime in the next 20 or 30 years you’ll actually start to see the truth of it.

            There is so much more that I could address, but I was right in what I said the very first time I responded to you — you are nothing more than a troll. So, I will waste no more time with you, other than to call you on your inevitable lies, deflection and obfuscation, as you continue to try to ‘bring insight and enlightenment’ to all of us ‘delusionals’.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Marko,

        I personally don’t think that science and spirituality are mutually exclusive. In my mind, the Divinity that is Neale could well have manifested his meeting up with a surgeon who would be capable of performing this particular surgery with Neale’s individual physical conditions most successfully (not to mention the rest of the medical staff involved from start to finish). Neale’s own intention, attitude and energy will surely affect the rest of the healing process, which is ongoing. And I believe our collective intentions, attitudes and energies will also have an effect.

        I consider the fact that an individual who feels called to help people through medical technology and skill performed a life-saving procedure on an individual who feels called to help people through spiritual awakening remarkable, considering they are but two of seven billion people inhabiting the planet. Neale could just have easily met someone less skilled, or a quack. He didn’t. Who’s to say he didn’t manifest the outcome, or isn’t continuing to manifest the outcome?

        Just another angle on it…

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

        • It’s been said I think it was Benjamin Franklin aka Poor Richard who said “God heals, doctors take the credit.”

          We are not sufficiently advanced to self heal ourselves in any number of cases at this point. So medicine helps out until the time comes when we don’t need it.

        • I agree.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Found it. An Open Letter to Our World: IS IT POSSIBLE THAT GOD DOES NOT EVEN EXIST? March 22, 2015

      “The questions are important because they invite us to ponder some of the most self-damaging ideas about God ever embraced by our species. For example, after the idea that God is to be feared, I believe that the second most damaging notion that some humans hold about God is the thought that God might not even exist.

      Why this is damaging is that it stops all atheists and many agnostics from using God’s power, even as the whole of humanity seeks to work collaboratively to create the life we all say we want for everyone on this planet.”

      This article tells us that atheism and agnosticism are self-damaging and that such people are not contributing society and the rest of humanity because they are not using God’s power. We have no evidence for gods and when you look at the contributions from atheists and agnostics, and then suggest that they are not contributing to society – well, that’s just ridiculous. Then he quotes Albert Einstein who was an agnostic or atheist depending on who you ask. Einstein didn’t contribute to our society? In a nutshell, this article said to me that atheists and agnostics are damaging for this world because they are not working collaboratively with believers to create a better life here.

      It was very annoying to me because at the time, religious people were attacking LGBTs and gay folks while the Supreme Court was debating gay marriage. Atheists and agnostics were not those spewing hate and hostility to the other as believers were. From the comments you can see that I was not the only person annoyed by this article.

      The column goes on to talk hokum about the quantum observer effect, something Chopra doesn’t understand either. It seems to imply an intelligent designer for the universe, and scientists have confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that there is no design – only evolution based on natural selection.

      This is off the main topic, but Neale demonstrated his lack of scientific knowledge about evolution, which he referred to in later articles as Evolution, as though capitalizing it changed its meaning. “What this adds up to is that there are three elements in the “system” that we call “life”: intelligence, design, and power. It is difficult to look closely at any aspect of life as we observe it—either at the micro level of the sub-molecular world or the macro level of the cosmos—without conceding that the manifestations of physicality are simply too sophisticatedly complex, too tightly interlocked, intermixed, and interwoven, too marvelously and massively intricate and interactive, to have been the result of random chance.” Science absolutely does not concede this point and “random chance” has nothing to do with it. The cause is “natural selection,” something very different. This is the argument used by fundagelicals because they don’t know the science either.

    • Andres

      Hello Mr. Gannon. Actually I am thankful for your input here, it spices up this conversation. The one thing I have trouble with is your blind belief in science, which in my opinion is just an “abrahamic heresy”. Remember that the people who developed the principles of science were deists, who believed in a creator God who made and expressed the universe through rules. And so scientific endeavor is simply about figuring out and writing down these rules through experimentation, a revised and ongoing “Moses goes to Sinai” process to understand how everything works. The problem emerges when some of the most brilliant scientific minds studying the essence of matter at a subatomic level discovered that the observer and the “observed phenomenon” are not independent. Therefore we live in a conscious universe, in which the process of conscious observation impacts reality, and viceversa . So the ultimate God of rules is just a dogma. The fabric of reality is capricious, fickle, enough to also be dogmatic, rules based and rational when it so wishes. Neale has made the best and most honest approach to spelling out how to harmoniously dance with this co-created reality. So again, I thank you for your efforts, but no amount of angry ranting will force me into believing in your “scientific” faced based dogma. Good luck with that.

      • Patrick Gannon

        I don’t have a blind belief in science. I think with a very high degree of probability, that the scientific process is the best way to discover the truth about our universe. I have a lot of confidence in the scientific method, because it works. Nothing in human history has been more successful in doing so. As such, it makes sense to give more credence to what we learn from objective scientific evidence than subjective products of human brains, particularly when those subjective experiences are shown to be unreal, like Out of Body experiences.

        “The problem emerges when some of the most brilliant scientific minds studying the essence of matter at a subatomic level discovered that the observer and the “observed phenomenon” are not independent. Therefore we live in a conscious universe, in which the process of conscious observation impacts reality, and viceversa.” Please point me to theoretical physicists with expertise in quantum mechanics, who support the conclusion that “we live in a conscious universe.” Prove that, please. New Age people like Deepak Chopra come up with this stuff, not scientists who actually study the science. I’m reading a book by Sean Carroll a leading theoretical physicist who has worked on the foundations of quantum mechanics, the arrow of time, and the emergence of complexity. He would laugh Deepak Chopra and others of his ilk, off the stage. As a leader in the field, he does not imply in any way that we live in a “conscious universe,” and he knows a lot more about the subject than most people on the planet. We have no need for gods to explain our universe.

        Don’t get into that “observer effect” thing until you understand more about quantum mechanics. Just because something is not fully understood does not mean that “god did it” which is essentially what you are proposing. That approach has failed again and again, starting with the time when gods were responsible for the weather, comets, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. Is a measuring device that counts where a particle lands after going through a double slit experiment conscious? The Noetic Institute has tried to use consciousness to affect the path of particles in the double slit experiment, and the results are of no value – they are in the “noise,” the level of statistical probability. They could not influence the path taken by particles. There is no objective support for this idea that I am aware of; but please feel free to share sources.

        What scientists are suggesting is that various pieces of our universe are emergent. Particle physics emerges from quantum mechanics, which may emerge from something else like strings. Consciousness emerges in ways we don’t yet know, from particles and perhaps quantum processes in our brains. Complexity arises from simpler things. It’s not magic.

  • Most people thought the last book of the Conversations with God series had been written. When the 9th book came out, that was our understanding. We have outstanding news to share!! A 10th Conversations with God book will be available shortly! Better news yet: we’ll be speaking with Neale about it on Thursday.

    Please join Humanity’s Team founder, friend and author of the Conversations with God books, Neale Donald Walsch for this powerful, hopeful talk. Steve Farrell, Worldwide Executive Director of Humanity’s Team and Anna-Mari Pieterse, co-director of the 12 Spheres and Oneness program, will co-host this compelling exchange. Be part of this event on Thursday, December 8th at 9:00 am Los Angeles CA time (PT).

    Go search for Humanity’s Team on the internet to look it up. I can’t post links on here even if CwG related. It’s gets bumped every time.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Marko, I will be there! I got the email today and it sounds intriguing. See ya there!

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

    • Spiritual_Annie

      The live event, scheduled for 90 minutes, takes place at:

      9:00a Pacific
      10:00a Mountain
      11:00a Central
      12:00p Eastern

      The online link is: iTeleseminar[dot]com/91333587

      If you can’t attend the live session, the replay will be available at the same address for 48 hours after the live event.

      If you prefer to attend by phone:

      Guest pin code: 17281­0#
      Primary dial in numbe­r: (425) 440-5100
      Secondary dial in num­ber: (951) 256-5632

      Hope this posts!

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • inae park

        Thank you for posting the link, Annie. I was having a problem signing up somehow.

    • inae park

      Thank you for posting this, Marko. That’s a surprise, indeed. I’m looking forward to the new dialogue book and the telecast. Currently I’m reading Where God and medicine meet. Finally got the book after a long back log order.

      • I finished the book yesterday & really enjoyed it!

  • mewabe

    Just some quick suggestions for those who are interested in expanding their consciousness beyond the physical body and the time/space grid.

    First of all, the perception of a physical universe originates in the senses, and from the senses moves to the mind. The senses “translate” the physical world that is pure energy into bits of informations that become the tangible things we encounter and experience in our lives, and which appear to us to be separate because distinct.

    In truth, nothing is separate. Everything is connected. That’s the key, right here…as all consciousness is also connected.

    So-called psychic abilities are a possibility a person might be able to develop if he or she wishes…I think it is crucial to start by developing a very powerful intuition, which is akin to walking with your eyes closed and yet finding your way through life. This takes practice, and trust in yourself. Have you ever had a “gut feeling”?
    Then remembering your dreams, and trying to reconnect with your own unconscious and subconscious as much as possible. This is the creative part of the mind, and the greater part, the connected part. The smaller part is the logical, the part that is as focused as a narrow beam of light in the dark. Have you noticed that the beam never lights up everything at once? Only by getting in touch with the dark (the unconscious and subconscious) can you see everything at once.

    You then might be able to get in touch with the collective unconscious, and much more of what the conscious mind is not yet aware.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      mewabe, my friend,

      Thank you for posting these suggestions. You have articulated them well. I hope you don’t mind me adding a few notes of my own.

      One way to move away from the idea of time is related to how our senses translate the energy of existence. If one thinks about it, each of our “physical” senses must first detect an energy, then transmit its perception of that energy to the brain. The brain then compares the percived energy to similar patterns it has encountered (if it has), then makes a determination about what has been perceived. The point is that, regardless of the sense(s) involved, the process takes time. It’s miniscule time, but time nonetheless. This means that what we perceive with our “physical” senses has already become part of the past rather than in the present moment of here and now by the time our brain recognizes it.

      This is one of the reasons that the idea of “emptying” oneself is recommended for several forms of meditation, because it gets us closer to that present moment. After emptying the physical senses, one is left with emptying the mind. For me, this doesn’t mean I have no thoughts. What I learned to do is to let my intrusive thoughts (I’m hungry; my foot’s asleep; I have to pay the rent) float through my mind by mentally nodding an acknowledgement then letting them go. Over the years, I’ve found I have fewer and fewer intrusive thoughts while having more inspiration, solutions and pure knowings.

      I have also learned that, for me, it’s not so much about letting go of fear as it is feeling the fear and doing things anyway. I got a fortune cookie years ago that I’ve never forgotten: “Courage is fear that has said its prayers.” As someone with anxiety as part of PTSD, fear is almost always present. It does not, however, have the power to stop me unless I grant it that power.

      Our nonphysical senses are quite varied, I’ve found. Intuition is a good place to start. Once one acts on intuition, one experiences it more.

      One of the as yet unexplained abilities I developed was to know when my father was in town, from the time he arrived until the time he left, without my family telling me until after he was gone. I personally believe that because of the years where my life literally depended on knowing where he was and what mood he was in at all times, I became capable of reading his personal energy signature at a distance.

      Just my thoughts…

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

      • mewabe

        Yes I think it is important to be centered in the present moment, and to empty the mind of clutter, or as you say witness the clutter passing through…this is practiced in Buddhism as well.
        As an artist, I notice that when I am in the creative process, my perception of time vanishes…I am in the now, and in a totally different zone.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Hi Mewabe. You know I have to comment!

      First you are assuming that consciousness beyond the physical body exists. That’s your starting point and it’s the same thing as assuming the Abrahamic god exists. You have to prove that consciousness can exist outside the human body before you can start talking about how to leverage it. You can’t start with a conclusion. You’re suggesting that psychic abilities are something a person might be able to develop if they wish – but if there’s no such thing as consciousness outside our brains, then no matter how hard you try, nothing is going to happen other than in your subjective mind, right?

      You provide the example of someone walking with their eyes closed, and you refer to a ‘gut feeling,’ but there are other senses available in this example. You can feel air movement, you can hear echoes of sound off of objects in the room if your hearing is finely attuned to it; you can smell, taste and touch your way through the room. It’s entirely possible, if not probable, that this is what psychic abilities are. Some people may be better at processing information and using it to generate generally accurate predictions, but that doesn’t mean its psychic. As I said in a post below – I think you belittle your mental abilities when you credit them to some force outside yourself.

      True, a flashlight only lights up a small section; but by working the flashlight through the room (applying the scientific process), bit by bit, you can in time, come to understand the whole room.

      I’m not claiming that there is no external consciousness outside our brains, but the harder I look for evidence to support this, the less I find. I certainly gave it a shot personally as well as in research – spending a couple years meditating and sometimes seeking, but mostly just waiting for something to happen that I couldn’t explain with the laws of our natural world. I still meditate for the health benefits. I can, for example, intentionally lower my blood pressure prior to a checkup if I want to – but there’s nothing psychic about that.

      • mewabe

        I thought I could get that one past you, hiding in plain view…Yes I am making a ton of assumptions. I am not attached to any of them, but for the time being they seem to work for me. Although I am making these statements in a way that may sound “authoritative”, in no way do I claim to have the key to the inner mysteries of the universe…no one has, yet.

        I see consciousness as a vast, fluid, expandable field in which to play.

        I do think that to get in touch with our unconscious and subconscious is very beneficial, regardless of any beliefs. Many Freudian psychiatrists see this as a dangerous, but I am more on the Jung side, and see no danger in it, only expansion and growth.

        Here is a practical trick to do it: Sleep only 4 hours at a time, twice to make it about 7 or 8 yours in 24. 7 or 8 hours straight tend to separate the conscious and unconscious too much. Our ancestors never did this, as they had to be more alert in the wilderness.
        And tell yourself to remember your dreams…you can even choose and direct your dreams with a bit of practice, or ask for an answer to a question to come in your dreams.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Nothing I can disagree with there!

      • Kasey Anderson

        Patrick,

        I know it’s out of the context of mewabe’s original comment, but I’d like to present an alternate point of view.

        Let’s assume that no consciousness beyond the physical body exists. Let’s assume that Neale is talking to himself. You could even assume that he’s plagiarized from different sources, and that he’s collected bits of information that other people have said.

        That’s still potentially valuable. Even if you assume that “God” in these books is nothing more than a character, or a psychological construction, then this character might still be a useful one.

        For instance, Neale defines “prayer” as an act whereupon one gives thanks while asking for something, having “faith” that this thing will happen. But there’s a catch- you have to believe that the thing can exist in your reality, and be genuinely grateful for this thing. Now, could this be an example of confirmation bias, or positive thinking? Yeah, it could. But if it leads you to a placebo effect in your life where you think your life is improving, and leads you toward a general attitude of gratefulness, then it might help you out anyway. (Incidentally, I don’t think that gratitude needs to be toward a person, so even if you are grateful for your life, that doesn’t have to mean that you are grateful to anything but random chance.)

        Another example is Neale’s construct that we are all One. Acting upon this belief might cause you to treat other people with more respect and love. Unlike with many religions, this isn’t done out of fear. There is no retribution in Neale’s world. There is no God to judge us harshly. The judgments we place on each other are all figments of our imagination.

        If you adopt this world view and act upon it, it doesn’t matter whether there is a God. As Bo Burnham writes in his song “From God’s Perspective,” “[God’s] love’s the kind of love that you have to earn / And when you earn it, you won’t need it.” I don’t think, incidentally, that you have to earn God’s love- if he/she/it exists- but I think that the idea he’s trying to get across- that a real God would be the kind of God that would produce the results of a loving world, the kind where we don’t need God- is a valid point. Real teachers, real Masters, as Neale points out, don’t need people to follow them. Their entire purpose is to produce new Masters. And Neale’s God’s purpose is to allow us to become Who We Really Are.

        And who are we? Whoever we want to be. The best we can be. I think that’s the central message of CWG. The rest is just (perhaps) one guy’s version of how to get there.

        You don’t have to believe in God to apply what Neale says. You can agree or disagree with whatever you want to. You can take whatever ideas you think are good or have possible merit and disagree with the rest. There’s a lot of ideas in Neale’s books that I have trouble with myself, but ultimately, it’s just advice, and I can choose to use it or ignore it, or, as is often the case, to get really mad about it and then figure out I was probably wrong about it later.

        A huge part of the books is about conducting tests, seeing what works for you, and discovering your truth. What is in the books will, as Neale puts it, either lead you to or away from your truth. And if that sounds like a tautology, it’s because it is. Anything you come across will either ring true for you or push you away, to varying degrees. And if CWG is just some guy’s version of how he thinks the world should be, if he’s just talking to himself, that doesn’t mean that all of the results of this “dialogue” are wrong. If CWG is just a collection of other people’s wisdom, that doesn’t mean it’s not valuable.

        If your truth is that CWG is worthless because God doesn’t exist, and that every other religion and walk of life are useless because they aren’t literally true, then I could see how you might feel that way. But consider that you might be limiting yourself.

        • Spiritual_Annie

          Hey, kasey!

          Thank you so much for your post. I often ask people to consider the content of the CWG material as simply thoughts and ideas about Life and to determine if it has value for them. You’ve provided a wonderfully succinct example of how this can be done.

          Love and Blessings Always,
          ~Annie

        • Patrick Gannon

          Kasey, I’m not sure how well you have followed me here. I have spoken many times of the valuable material I have gained from Neale’s books. While I did not always think Neale was talking to himself and pulling things out of his memories and experiences, I certainly do today – however that doesn’t discount all his points, just as the reality that Yahweh is mythical doesn’t discount the many good teachings and advice one can find in the bible. That doesn’t mean that the reality of Yahweh or NAG (New Age God) can’t be challenged, given that neither has any objective evidence to support His/Her existence. Neale has questioned, criticized and belittled legacy religion and it’s beliefs continuously over the years – I’m just doing the same thing for his god; but I get beat up for it and he doesn’t. (Well the Christian community in their own blogs, considers him to be one of the false prophets the bible warns us of. Why are they wrong?)

          I think ONEness is real, though not in the way Neale does. We have no evidence for universal consciousness to unite us, but we are all made of the same “stuff” and to it we will return when we die. As humans we are all part of the same human genome. We are all ONE in this sense, perhaps, more than any other, as each of us is contributing, through the process of evolution, to the continuation of the entire human genome.

          Neale is constantly asking us (telling us) to change our beliefs, and he gives us a great many things to believe in. Sure he says that we don’t have to believe them, but that’s what he’s trying to do – otherwise, why bother? He refers to his books as scripture, the same way any fundagelical minister does. The problem is that, like other religions and belief systems, there is no objective evidence for belief in any sort of god or universal consciousness. Neale says if we want to improve our condition, we have to change our beliefs – and he’s not talking about changing to Muslim beliefs or Hindu beliefs, he’s talking about changing to his beliefs. My question concerns whether it is beliefs themselves that are society’s problem, when these beliefs are not supported by real evidence, and our brains know that.

          A couple people have suggested that holding beliefs is not a problem, even if they are invalid beliefs, as long as they make you feel better. But drugs make you feel better too, and that’s just a way to hide from the truth. Maybe hiding from truth is a good thing to do, but I haven’t seen any good arguments for this strategy as a long term solution to our mental health as individuals or societies.

          This forum has largely been a KumBaYa sort of blog where most people, like a Christian bible study group, essentially all agree with each other. It’s been a site for confirmation bias – hearing things you already believe in order to affirm those beliefs. Neale argues against belief in legacy religions, and in the article referenced in the original post, he has argued that not having beliefs is “damaging.”

          I have offered a different hypothesis and invited people to discuss it. A few have, but others were upset that I had the audacity to question the prevailing wisdom and the guru, and displayed angst, anger and anxiety in their hostile and (in my opinion) frequently unethical debating tactics. Nevertheless, my persistence got the issue raised enough that Neale has been dancing around it the last couple articles; and as a result, I think maybe some readers here are considering it. The hardest thing we can do is be our own worst critic by questioning our personal beliefs – but it’s probably the best thing we can do.

          I think Neale does need people to follow him. The business requires that. If nobody follows him, the business is dead, and the CwG movement, like any other New Age program is a business. There’s a financial self-interest that can’t be completely ignored, just as any Church needs followers in order to meet its financial needs.

          As mentioned above, I think we are all ONE too, though in a different way. You talk about how Neale’s god doesn’t punish people, but having no god also means no punishment or retribution. Neale did a whole series of articles you may recall if you’ve been here a while, on “What if…..” where “If” had to do with some unpleasant nature of legacy religion. What if everything you believed about Hell was wrong? Every single one of the “what if’s” that he raised could also be addressed by “What if there is no god at all?” That was not the option provided. The option was – if legacy god is garbage, then NAG is your answer. No god was an equally good answer to all those what ifs.

          I’ll say it again. I have not suggested that CwG was “worthless,” with or without the real existence of NAG. There are many good things in Neale’s books and I leverage a number of them – but if researchers are correct, that cognitive dissonance is not good for our mental health, then isn’t that a topic worthy of discussion? If the very process of holding unsupported beliefs is not good for our mental health, should we just ignore that possibility?

          • Kasey Anderson

            Patrick,
            I spent about an hour and a half yesterday going through what you had to say point by point. I’ve been infamous other places for lengthy rebuttals and drawn-out analyses.

            But I can’t right now. One, because I don’t think it would change anything. Two, because I have finals starting on Monday that I need to focus on. Three, because I’m feeling really soul sick right now and CwG is the only thing getting me through it.

            You talked about cognitive dissonance, but it seems like in my life I can’t avoid cognitive dissonance. My mom died three years ago. She was both an abuser and, as I found out after she died, the product of abuse. She died thinking she had never truly lived. She died asking someone, anyone, to buy her a gun. At twenty, I was researching poisons because apparently the “humane” solution to her pain was to starve her to death. The church I was raised in tried to drag her to church the day she died.

            How was I not supposed to experience cognitive dissonance?

            I just got told, after finally summoning up the courage to speak to a CPS supervisor after five years, that I can’t see my siblings who were abused by my stepmother because they’re “working through things.” That I can’t see them until they’re 18. That means for one particular sibling, who I spent 8 years with, who I bottle fed as a child, I basically have to serve the remainder of a minimum four-year prison sentence where the end result is that that child has insta-aged ten years. If I’m lucky. He may not even want to see me then. I have no legal recourse.

            How am I not supposed to experience cognitive dissonance?

            Then along comes this guy who says there are no victims and no villains, that no one does anything inappropriate given their model of the world, that in some weird pre-arranged thing these people decided to put on an act, to help me remember that I am all-loving and all-forgiving, that God is all-loving and all forgiving, that this life is an opportunity to be the grandest version of myself, that my past doesn’t determine who I am, that hate and worry are the most destructive emotions, that I’m calling forth the darkness to remember Who I Am…

            And you think I want to believe any of that? You think I want to believe, like Anne Frank, that people are fundamentally good at heart? You think I don’t want to demonize my stepmother, the CPS workers, the legal system, whichever political candidate I’ve been demonizing, Hitler, or any other number of people I could blame in my life or others’ lives?

            I don’t want to believe any of this. But I can feel the poison of blaming others and myself overtaking my life. I can feel the meaninglesness of my life. I can feel how much others are hurt because I’m hurting. I can feel the despair threatening to close in, and I can feel how nothing and no one in my life can make me feel better. Least of all me.

            Except this. I need the story. I need to believe that all of this suffering means something. I need to believe that I can be redeemed from the mistakes I’ve made. I need to believe that my mom is okay now, that it was all an act of sorts, that she’s okay now. Better than okay. I need some reason to continue with my life, or I’m just going to break under the pressure.

            The difference between drugs and CwG is that drugs don’t prevent you from committing suicide. Drugs don’t make you want to be a better person. Ultimately, drugs can screw up your life. Drugs can screw up the lives of the people around you.

            I’ve tried atheism. I’ve tried anger. I’ve tried the conventional wisdom of bottling up your feelings, of not crying for the sake of other people. I’ve tried putting others down to raise myself up. I’ve tried joining the court of public opinion against people I thought were wrong. And it all feels like bullshit.

            So maybe CwG isn’t the answer. Maybe God doesn’t exist. But for now, I’m sticking to it, because it makes more sense than anything else anyone has ever said to me, and it’s the only thing that’s getting me through my problems and giving me motivation to go on.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for your well written and heartfelt post, Kasey. You seem to understand that CwG is perhaps a little like self-medicating to help get through the rough spots. I can see the value in that, and it’s a good response to the question of whether holding inconsistent beliefs are good for us.

            You speak of cognitive dissonance, but I didn’t really see any of that in your narrative. Cognitive dissonance occurs when we hold conflicting beliefs. You aren’t “holding” conflicting beliefs. You are questioning your beliefs and trying other approaches, just as I did. I would suggest that you are on the right path.

            Neale tells us that all this earthly activity of angst and suffering, challenges and hardships are things our souls chose. The story isn’t that different from the early Catholics telling the serfs that it will all be better in heaven. It’s a story of hope, based more on wishful thinking, than on anything objective. If believing it, objectively makes you better, (and there is a difference between being better and feeling better, I think), then it’s a point against my hypothesis. The question becomes, “should we believe things our brains can’t support (cognitive dissonance), if it makes us feel better?” I interpret your answer as, “yes.” We still have to question whether it is actually making us “better.” If adapting new beliefs causes us angst and hostility when these new beliefs are challenged, have we made any real progress towards being “better?” I’m not saying you will do that, by the way, but it seems to me that this happens to some individuals (including myself).

            I’m not sure that CwG doesn’t prevent you from taking your own life. (I don’t like the words “committing suicide” which makes it sound like “committing a crime.” I reject that language because it creates the notion of guilt, where none is called for). CwG removes that guilt, and makes it easier to take one’s own life, I would argue. People are also more likely to take their own lives when they come off their meds, as I understand it.

            That you have “tried atheism” and seem to be trying CwG and its NAG (New Age God), that indicates that you are a seeker, like myself, and that you are willing to challenge your beliefs and try something else. It means you have a more open, skeptical mind, than most. Continue to nurture that. CwG was a stepping stone to greater inner peace for me (but only a stepping stone), so get the good stuff out of it, but continue to question what you believe. Face the fear from time to time and acknowledge that there may be no purpose other than the one we create ourselves here and now. And what’s wrong with that?

            I’m willing to concede that a good argument can be made for self-medicating on CwG and other religious or quasi-religious beliefs, as a temporary measure; but is it good for us in the long run?

    • inae park

      I have very often stumbled into this arena and accidentally become psychic. I have yet to develop the ability to do it more consciously, but as Annie says, being aware that time doesn’t exist is an important element in understanding these phenomena and consciously implementing psychic abilities.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Small point: Whether or not, how and if, time exists is a hotly debated subject in physics today. See “Time Reborn” by Lee Smolin, for example. It’s actually a very complicated subject. That time exists, most seem to agree. That the “passage of time” is real, is where there is disagreement.

        • inae park

          Thanks, Patrick, for the fascinating point! I hadn’t a foggiest idea this was even a controversy. More to explore on the subject, then. Mind expansion. 😉

          • Awareness

            “Conversations with God” says something about time:

            “A true understanding of time allows you to live much more peacefully within your reality of relativity, where time is experienced as a movement, a flow, rather than a constant.

            It is you who are moving, not time. Time has no movement. There is only One Moment.

            At some level you deeply understand this. That is why, when something really magnificent or significant occurs in your life, you often say it is as if “time stands still.”

            It does. And when you do also, you often experience one of those life-defining moments.”

            Your science has already proven this mathematically. Formulas have been written showing that if you get into a spaceship and fly far enough fast enough, you could swing back around toward the Earth and watch yourself taking off.

            This demonstrates that Time is not a movement but a field through which you move—in this case on Spaceship Earth. You say it takes 365 “days” to make a year. Yet what is a “day”? You’ve decided—quite arbitrarily, I might add—that a “day” is the “time” it takes your Spaceship to make one complete revolution on its axis.”

            “Thus we see that it is not time which “passes,” but objects which pass through, and move around in, a static field which you call space. “Time” is simply your way of counting movements!

            Scientists deeply understand this connection and therefore speak in terms of the “Space-Time Continuum.” Your Dr. Einstein and others realized that time was a mental construction, a relational concept. “Time” was what it was relative to the space that existed between objects! (If the universe is expanding—which it is—then it takes “longer” for the Earth to revolve around the sun today than it did a billion years ago. There’s more “space” to cover.)”

            Check book 2 of “Conversations with God” 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • inae park

            Thank you for the reminder, Awareness. Explanations about time by CwG and Einstein make sense to me and explain many of the so called supernatural phenomena.

          • Patrick Gannon

            How do Einstein’s explanations about time explain supernatural phenomena? Einstein was all about using the laws of our physical matter reality to explain our natural world WITHOUT supernatural phenomena.

          • inae park

            Well, I guess, Einstein’s explanations in conjunction with what CwG postulates. If time is not absolute and it is not time but we that move, that supports the proposition that all things exist and happen all at once and since all things are energy in motion we can sense things ahead of “time” and stuff like that. Actually neither time nor humans move but just vibrations mix and match. That’s how both psychic phenomena and creation occur. I can’t express this in a way that’s more scientifically hard core or intellectually satisfying—lost my intense desire and inclination to read & write, plus, life got real busy these days! I’ll keep the spirit of questioning my beliefs regarding everything thanks to you.

          • Stephen mills

            Great awareness …Awareness. Why is Greenwich-Meantime mean ? Because it makes a liar out of the universe.

          • Awareness

            Great Stephen mills 😀
            The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂
            Blessings 🙂

  • Spiritual_Annie

    Neale,

    I would like to expand on the idea of discussing things fairly here. I feel it’s not an unimportant matter.

    I agree with you that CWG itself and you have made it perfectly clear that everything imparted in the books could be wrong. In my opinion, much of what is related in the books both rings true for me and works in my life. I would invite others to consider the information from whatever viewpoint they wish, but to do so with an open mind. If it doesn’t meet their needs, they are certainly free to say so, but I think it’s important to not diminish the experience of others or disrespect them while disagreeing.

    I agree with you that the information presented in the CWG books is information imparted from Divinity to a human being. Others are free to believe otherwise. Again, I think that to disagree should be done respectfully.

    I agree with you that the information in the CWG books is theology rather than a religion. Regardless of dictionary definitions, religions have things in common that aren’t present in CWG. There is no need to declare devotion to the ideas as is present in most religions. There is no definition of how one must act towards God, or whatever one chooses to call the Divine Energy of Life. There is no ritual one need follow in order to be considered a member. There is no intercession necessary between us and God–no priest, no minister, no rabbi, no deacon, no imam. To the contrary, direct connection with God is promoted.

    I agree with you that you are not a “leader” in the traditional sense of a religious movement or organization. You consistently ask that people not follow you, but instead connect with their own Divinity. I first saw you as a messenger, as is stated in CWG. I feel, however, that a better term at this point might be Guide as you guide people towards their own inner truths and provide the tools that can assist us in doing so. If people see you as a “leader,” they are misunderstanding your role in all of this as you are a human being that lacks, in my opinion, the narcissism necessary to lead a religious movement or found a cult. Again, others are free to respectfully disagree, even though you have stated yourself that you aren’t looking for or wanting followers.

    I understand that there must be, to a certain extent, moderation of the comments posted here. I understand the logic behind not allowing links to other websites as that leads people away from joining in the conversation here, which is the purpose of this space you have provided. I feel that the exclusion of comments containing foul language is appropriate as people can be offended by such language. I’m uncertain of your view on people repeatedly posting the same comment time and again, but understand that we can each ignore those rather than their being deleted or the author being publicly called out about them by you. As has been evidenced here on more than one occasion, we tend to “self police” such matters, although not always with patience, myself included.

    There are times where it may seem that our discussions go “off track,” at least as far as no longer relating to the column you’ve written. However, some of those “off track” comments have led to meaningful discussions about spirituality and our role in shaping our own lives. If some of it becomes playful, I am grateful for it as a sometimes much needed break from the serious nature of some of the topics discussed here.

    I think it’s important to note that “the golden rule” applies here as much as it does anywhere else: treat others as you would have them treat you. There have been instances where this “golden rule” hasn’t necessarily been followed here.

    One example is what is referred to as “cherry picking,” or addressing only those points in a comment one disagrees with while ignoring the rest of what’s been written. I personally find this disrespectful as I put much thought and time into the comments I post here, and I believe others do as well. A simple acknowledgement that one has considered the post as a whole takes little time.

    Another example is the assigning of motives or emotions that are often misunderstandings. It’s easy with the written word to come to a misunderstanding as one cannot read a person’s tone or facial expressions. I would suggest that, if one thinks another has a motive or is expressing an emotion, it’s appropriate to simply ask rather than to assume or accuse.

    Those are some of the things I feel are important in having fair discussions about the material presented in CWG, and your thoughts and ideas about its meaning and how we might use it to make positive changes in our lives. I would invite others to share their own ideas, whether they agree with what I’ve written or not.

    Love and Blessings Always,
    ~Annie

    • I have no quibbles with what you say here. I’ve been on all of Neale’s various blogs for over 15 years, so I’ve seen it all. My main position I take for myself is to be a model for others by the responses I give. I’m less concerned by how others show up. I’m more concerned by how I show uP & how I can be a positive influence.

      I’m not pulled in or taken aback by angry disruptive people who act out simply because underneath they actually do seek a reasonable answer to life’s very challenging experiences. Many others unfortunately are, & the internet is in many respects a great mirror of the dysfunction & immaturity of many people. I do not want to add to that, but simply offer another take. I do so in a loving respectable way, which is more often than not received better by even the most bitter & angry people.

    • Jethro

      Good morning Annie, something that has helped me a great deal is picturing each post as a simple sharing of thoughts. Because we cannot see expressions and hear tones we tend to add to it. I try to remember that passion plays a role, that can appear as anger. Try reading every post as if it were being spoken softly, with a caring voice. I have found myself enjoying many more post from this perspective. Patrick is a very caring and passionate person. So is a true friend. Caring can show up in many ways. I showed up here as “Charles” some time ago and went the wrong direction. I was trying to fix something. I signed out thinking I don’t need this crap. After some thought I signed back in as a different identity with a new perspective. I actually learned a great lesson! Acceptance is the first step to kindness. I’m here to learn something, not teach something. You have so much kindness in your thoughts and present very intelligent post. Keep going! Even to those who seem insulting to you. It’s ok. You can’t be hurt unless you allow it. Argue away, allow the arguement. There is something to learn from every human on earth, even if we just learn we’ve found a person that’s just like ourselves. It’s all just a part of our journey.

      Love and blessings to you!

      • Spiritual_Annie

        Jethro,

        I’m grateful for the idea of reading comments as if written in a kind, gentle voice. I will give that a try. And I don’t mind respectful disagreements. We’re all individuals with our own viewpoints. I’m not hurt when others go on the attack. I’m more frustrated, especially when a comment covering a lot of areas is replied to by picking out a single sentence out of context while the rest is ignored, a habit we’ve all gotten into. I think we’re all here to both teach and learn. I’m merely addressing Neale’s column and what I feel is fair. Others are always entitled to their own views.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

        • Jethro

          Hi Annie, I truly understand that frustration of the one sentence response, or the response being about something I didn’t even ask. I have the same feelings quite often. I’m telling you how I have handled it. Yet I still move through feeling quite troubled sometimes. I will spend an entire day or longer thinking about some conversation before responding. You found patience in my conversations. It’s because I thought very hard about what I said before I posted it. Writing, deleting, writing again. That’s how I come across as patient. When I give a response that’s quick and full of emediate emotion, I feel I come across as harsh. It’s taken that way too. It’s not uncommon for me to spend a lot of time between sentences. Words are sacred and should be chosen carefully. I got that from looking into Native American languages. I believe it.
          I’m frustrated that Neale is accused of starting a religion. I took it all as a wonderful view to further ones spiritual thought. So that’s all I did. It was therapeutic. Some people feel the need to immerse themselves into a good message a little too deep. So to accept it all as the law of God will happen I guess.

          Love and blessings too you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Why is it frustrating that Neale is accused of starting a religion? Why is that a problem, Jethro? Why is it frustrating?

            It has all the hallmarks of a religion with the internet as its Church. It has a god, it has holy scripture that its “messenger” repeatedly refers to as though it was scripture, which he believes to be the literal word of God, just as Baptist ministers insist that the bible is the literal word of God. It has a long list of beliefs, many of which are just as fantastic as legacy religious beliefs, and with the same amount of evidence – none. It has regular services through newsletters, forums and other programs that include a homily, and discussion about its beliefs. It has outreach programs like other religions to help the unfortunate. It offers hope and a means to combat fear of death. And of course it has fund-raising like other religions. How is it not a religion? It’s at least a pre-religion. Jesus, if he existed, had no intentions of starting a religion. He started a movement that challenged the established authority – the Jewish clergy. Neale started a movement to challenge the established authority too. Annie, clicked off a list of “I agree with” statements that looks like the start of a Nicene Creed, a “profession of faith.” Jesus had no control over his followers who created something he certainly didn’t have in mind, and the groundwork seems to be in place for something similar to happen with CwG.

            What’s frustrating to me is the insistence that it’s not a religion. Actually I’m not frustrated, I’m amused at the gyrations to try to avoid calling an apple an apple.

          • Jethro

            This site is new to me, though I’ve been aware of some of those things like looking for donations. The reason I’m frustrated at it being called a religion is probably because I never took it as such. Neale has some good ideas that could change the world for the better. But so do I, and I’m sure you do too. I use to wish there was something I could do or say to change some of the views of our world. A book was an idea if I were capable or wanted to bad enough. Neale got a lot of attention using the word God to describe the other entity in his books. It was the word God that got the attention of so many. Would you have read the book had it been called “a conversation with me” or “I was talking to myself the other day” or just “I have an idea”? I was intrigued because I was wondering why god only spoke to people 2000 years ago and bang, here’s this guy having a conversation with God. I figured out pretty quick that it was a man writing down his thoughts. I liked his thoughts quite honestly. So I kept reading. I would have done good to stop at book 1, but the others weren’t bad. If it becomes or has become a religion it will be because people want it. I don’t. I was invited by Neale to take what I needed and that’s what I did. I built onto my views of the world and seen a better place. 10 years ago I believed the atheist was a messenger of the devil. Not today. And I do not see CWG as a religion. Some people might and I acknowledged it is possible, but that will become their problem, not mine.

            Jesus was there to fulfill a prophecy of an existing religion. He had nothing to start, only something to improve upon or complete.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thanks for your comments Jethro. I didn’t take it as a religion at first either. It was the constant insistence on changing our beliefs, denigrating other religions, referring to CwG as though it was scripture, etc. that began to rub me wrong over the years. It is a religion as I understand that word, but as you say, we can all disagree. Perhaps in a half dozen years, when you’ve been following it as long as I have, you’ll change your mind. Much will depend on what happens after Neale is gone, and who takes over.

            Would I have read the book if it had a different title? I don’t know. It’s hard to say. I read “Jonathan Livingston Seagull” and “Stranger in a Strange Land” and and lots of other books that influenced my life without being overtly religious, or advocating that I change my beliefs. CwG said what I wanted to believe. I wanted to believe in a good god, and the Abrahamic god is anything but good. It took a while to recognize that just because CwG said what I wanted to believe, that didn’t prove that it was actually believable. When Neale began to dabble in Chopra’s quantum garbage, that set off all sorts of warning bells.

            I also used to wonder why God (Yahweh) only spoke to people thousands of years ago – but now I know the answer is pretty simple: He didn’t, because there was no Yahweh, and the odds are very slim that there was any Jesus, either. The bible is full of myths. The god creatures within it all contain features – many associated with nature (death and rebirth, sun gods, war gods, etc.) that primitive religions all over the world share. There is nothing new in them. Jesus was not the first with a virgin birth, or to die and resurrect. These creatures are all myths that became religions. Now we have the myth of NAG, the New Spirituality, with its holy gospel CwG. It’s a religion, in the same way the others are. If CwG survives, in time, I predict that it will become more rigid and doctrinal; I can almost guarantee it. Annie’s “I agree” liturgy was a very good start for a profession of faith. Whether Neale wants it to become a religion or not, is irrelevant. Whether his followers like Annie want it to become a religion, is another thing entirely. It may be too late for Neale to do anything to prevent it becoming a religion after he’s gone.

            You suggest that Jesus was not there to start a religion – and if Jesus was an actual historical person rather than a mythological figure which is almost certainly the case – then we can see what happened, can’t we? His followers, or the followers of those who invented him, took his teachings and began a religion that in time became rigid, dogmatic, cold, heartless, and brutal. Why couldn’t that happen to CwG? If enough people believe that it actually is revelation and can see a way to empower themselves by making it so, with themselves in positions of power and authority, then I predict it’s almost certain to happen in time.

            Well, let me backtrack on that a little. The problem CwG has, is that it’s too close to actual scientific research on the existence of things like universal consciousness, and this concept may be disproven, perhaps within the lifetime of some reading this. It took thousands of years to learn that there was no six day creation, no Adam and Eve, no global flood, no mass exodus from Egypt, no conquest of Canaan, but there is active, ongoing research into Neale’s contentions about universal consciousness. If it can be definitively shown that consciousness is a product of our brains and no more, then that’s the end of CwG; just as the other discoveries have washed out the foundation for the Abrahamic religions (they just don’t know it yet). CwG might not have the opportunity to turn into a strong religion, if its basic premise is blown out of the water. I admit that’s going out on a limb with predictions. Jesus and Paul predicted end times within a generation and they were both wrong, so I could be wrong about how long it takes us to understand consciousness; but we are working on it.

            None of this means that, just like the bible, CwG doesn’t have anything of value to offer, it just means that it’s a book of good advice and most assuredly not a book of revelation as the author believes and preaches. Neale says it could all be wrong, and that he could be wrong; but he believes it (or says he does), and he keeps preaching it, so he certainly wants others to believe it. Sure sounds a lot like religion to me.

          • Jethro

            My friend Patrick, you are as correct as anyone. I mean that. You are right. I have considered the very thing you mentioned about followers of Neale beyond the life of Neale. Proven by art being more valuable once the artist has passed. I truly understand your point and I know it’s wisdom. I will always read the thoughts of others protected by something I got from the Bible. Beware of false prophets. Not that I have found any prophets. People with good ideas yes, but not prophets. I know the book caught on because of its title. I know I would not have even heard of Neale had it not been for a counselor with a spiritual background throwing in a tape about CWG and Neales story. The word “God” was in the title, that made it inspirational. It worked, I learned great things. Things that helped me move on. Things that made MY views of the Bible ok. I needed that.

            You wrote…None of this means that, just like the bible, CwG doesn’t have anything of value to offer, it just means that it’s a book of good advice and most assuredly not a book of revelation….. agreed! That’s actually my stand on any religious book. I honestly think, that the Bible has been misunderstood. I’m not prepared to discuss that yet but that’s what I’m believing. It’s mostly a feeling have. I shared a little of that when I said your “feelings of guilt will get you” in the post above. It’s above on my screen.

            I didn’t suggest Jesus did anything, I made a statement based on what I was taught. And there’s we’re the crap meets the fan. What we are taught. Same book different teachers, teachers who say other teachers are going to hell while teaching from the same book. I’ll take what I know and decide if I’m going to hell myself thank you. Turns out I’m ok. That’s what THEY do, right?
            Choose a belief that makes them right and everyone else burns in hell?

            Ok I took a couple breaths. Preachers piss me off. Have I mentioned my grandfather was a preacher? Angry childhood. Insane adult. But I’m feeling much better now.

            Universal consciousness, here’s my take on that. Humans are humans, it’s pretty simple. We all want the same thing. No, not everyone wants a Harley fat boy, or a BMW hybrid bike. That’s me. We want to eat when we’re hungry, We want to sleep when we’re tired, we want warmth when we’re freezing to death, we want to stay dry when we sleep. We want to be happy. But here’s where the problem starts. Want. I should have said Need. We need to survive. Want is the illusion. We don’t want to die so thow shalt not kill. We don’t want to die so thow shalt not have a god that needs sacrifice, yeah I improvised but God is ok with that. I don’t want another guy chasing my girl so thow shalt not chase my girl or think of her in THAT way… you know. There’s a list and I don’t have to remind you. I do enjoy Neales take on this one. But anyway, there is a common need with humans. We can live without many things that we have but some things we need. For survival. Are we all tied together in our thoughts? Depends on your thoughts, BMW hybrid or food. The choice is universal. It’s a conscious choice too. The rest is illusion. Nobody is reading minds or actually connected. It would make getting married a lot easier though. I say so after three marriages. Which by the way damns me to hell.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well I wouldn’t mind having a Harley Fat Boy (I have a Low Rider that I don’t ride enough). Neale looks like a Harley dude!

            I would propose that sometimes we can read our partners’ minds. When she says “nothing” you know it’s “something.” And when she says “fine” you know it’s anything but. LOL

            The bible is beneficial as a source to study the history of religion and western society. Genesis tells a story of the evolution of the law. Some of the self-obvious rules such as the golden rule, aren’t original to the bible, but certainly make sense. Some of the wisdom in the Proverbs is useful. (I’m not a great fan of the Psalms. Many of them end up with the author asking God to destroy his enemies). My favorite book is Ecclesiastes – for everything there is a time, and the recognition that our time here is limited, so we should enjoy our labors, enjoy our family, enjoy our lives as best we can; because this is all we get.

            As for CwG, I love the highest version/highest vision stuff. I found many of the arguments that Neale uses to “attack” legacy religion are good arguments that I still use. Why does an all-powerful being ever need or want anything? I was introduced to mindfulness meditation either directly or indirectly by CwG, and that has proven to be very valuable. I used to have thoughts that just ran through my head like a hamster on a wheel, and now I can slow that stuff down and tamp it to a halt when I want to.

            What is not beneficial in the case of both, is the need to believe things for which there is no objective evidence, whether that be virgin births and resurrections or universal consciousness.

          • Jethro

            Hey Patrick, man I looked up universal consciousness, I’ve never seen so many explanations telling me what something was not, and the ones saying what it is didn’t say anything at all. So what’s the problem? There are things every human needs to survive and there are common thoughts that humans share like love, kindness, hatred, guilt. We have these thoughts at different times but we all have them. We go insane without other humans and humans drive us insane. Given the chance we would choose someone who bothers us as company if no other person could be found. Experience gives us the ability to know things that seem extra sensory. There’s nothing extra about it. We know our spouses Both my wife and son have claimed to have an extra sense allowing them to notice small things that nobody else sees. Not true. Neither have noticed the small things I notice. Everyone needs to be special in one way or the other. Truth is, everyone is the same amount of special. Some have a rain man thing going on, but math isn’t their “gift?” It’s something else whatever it is. I find some trees very interesting to look at but it will burn the same color flame as the rest. Universal consciousness sounds more to me like the common realization of all things that exists. Everything wishes to exist as it is, to survive, to live, and moves toward that. After reading descriptions of God it sounds like universal consciousness is another word for God as well. That’s fine. No earthquakes or lightning when I had the thought. All in all, I don’t understand it. If you think you could explain it to a five year old you can give explaining it to me a shot.

            If people want to believe in things with no objective evidence that’s fine with me as long as they are holding on to the love part first. I believe everything is connected, for now, maybe till death. I’m gonna keep thinking about it. What’s the harm.

            You’ve learned to calm racing thoughts, I gave up meds to learn to live with it and anxiety panic disorder. It’s just become a part of my life. Gets in the way of lengthy typing if you haven’t noticed. Why do you need to protect people from going down a path that you needed to walk in the past. What if it’s the only path to the correct destination? You have arrived at the correct destination haven’t you?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Jethro. Missed this post.

            I would suggest that the potential harm in believing something for which no evidence exists, is that it could create internal cognitive conflicts that affect one’s behavior. What’s the harm? Maybe none, maybe it’s worse than we think.

            Someone like you would not suffer any cognitive conflict because your mind is more than open enough to say “I don’t know.” It’s the people who can’t do that, the ones who insist that they do know, who may be creating problems for themselves – to varying degrees.

            CwG, as I understand it, suggests a universal consciousness, and this is a core belief. God is basically a fabric of consciousness of which we are all part. It’s possible that this is valid, but it’s much more probable that it is not, given our current understanding of consciousness. To the best of our knowledge and understanding now, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

            A developing concept of consciousness that is gaining favor is discussed in Michael Graziano’s “Consciousness and the Social Brain.” It’s not a difficult read. We assign consciousness to others, as well as to inanimate objects like TV images, puppets, etc. If you’ve ever watched a good ventriloquist like Jeff Dunham working Walter or Achmed the dead terrorist, the characters come alive; they seem to have personalities and your brain interprets them as conscious, sentient beings. Graziano suggests that our brain does this to itself. It creates what he calls an “attention schema” sort of a working outline of all that is going on in your brain, and it manages all the requests for attention that are placed on it by internal and external sensory input. Essentially we create a sense of our own awareness, creating a consciousness for ourselves in order to manage our brain, or more realistically for the brain to manage itself and inform us (itself) of what we are “conscious” of. It’s a tool the brain uses to interact with and have relationships with, the rest of the world. It’s an interesting proposal that seems to be gaining traction. He’s working to identify the region(s) of the brain that are most critical to this process, and notes that by removing or damaging these sections, awareness and consciousness are significantly affected.

            Yeah, I learned how to calm racing thoughts. I had to work at it. I posted a note above my desk – I may have gotten it from CwG, I don’t remember; but I wrote in large letters: “What are you thinking about? Why are you thinking about that?” After a while, you realize that most of the things you think about are simply letting other people use your brain without paying any rent, and no matter what thoughts eat up the processing time in your brain, none of it is of any real value. When I noticed myself doing this, I focused on breathing – just focus on the air flowing in and out of my nose or lungs. I worked on it for months. The hard part is catching yourself when the hamster wheel starts. The longer you’re on the wheel, the harder it is to get off, so catching yourself, switching focus to breathing, gets you off the wheel. At first you have to do it again and again, every time you catch yourself, and much of the time you miss it, realizing only later that you were on the wheel without the benefit of burning calories. I kept at it, and now I sense when the hamster wheel is starting to pick up speed, and just recognizing that its happening is enough to stop it and focus elsewhere, on something more productive. If I’m really upset, then I always revert to focus on my breath. It helps with falling asleep as well.

          • Jethro

            There are many dangers in believing that which cannot be proven, mostly depends on the belief of course, and that’s not limited to an idea of a god. Some of the scariest people I’ve met had a less than perfect idea of the Christian idea of God, or the devil. Saying things like turn off that rock and roll music, I’m trying to keep the devil out of this house. It was The J guiles band, not AC/DC. That was a statement made, yelling in anger, and probably fear. This was a friends mother. I often wonder what change I could’ve made had I been old enough to explain the devil (if one existed) entered the house through her anger. I believe the entity described as the devil is actually human desire. The thing we listen to when the souls message is getting in the way of our pleasure. So the saying goes, were only human.

            People tend to lend themselves to religion through friends and then fall for the hype. Those people are actually more dangerous than those like myself who were born into it. But not limited to. They get excited before they are educated enough to be excited. A weak mind is a dangerous thing. I’m limited in knowledge of the things most people talk about here as I don’t care to understand a lot of things. The human mind is a curious thing. You stated to Neale that perhaps I may not believe in “his” God. Your right. I believe in my God. It just happens that Neale and I share a lot of the same beliefs in this God. The thing that separates me from most is I’m not insulted by what it is you and other fellow human beings believe. Your a good person and I know it. I don’t believe you will burn in hell for your thoughts and ideas. I’m not here to save people from themselves. I’m not going to push my beliefs on you because that creates a battle. Your thoughts match mine in many different ways. We only need to be human in our conversation as we are not only about or not about a belief in a god. I’m here because I don’t know everything and I wish to know more. Mewabe holds a lot of my beliefs as well due to the Native American side of belief. If we’re going to hold a belief in human goodness we better be concentrating on nature too. Mother Earth, Green man, tree of life kind of crap. I think that’s all pagan. Lots of great ideas concerning nature.

            Consciousness is a product of anything with a brain connected to its anatomy. I guess some enter the information of the speaking puppet as the puppet being an entity on its own, love Je,fa,fa done ham by the way, I appreciate the explanation though. That makes a lot of sense too. Being gullible is a process related to having a brain. God as a singularity, not an all, as most people view god as it were, I see as the problem. Allways trying to please the unpleasable. I explained my version of god to a Christian friend and he had to agree. Nothing but God existed in the beginning. A Christian point. So all things created must be made of the only thing that existed. Therefore god would be a part of everything, not apart from everything. I prefer shared energy but everyone insist upon calling it god. Well ok. I know that I could be wrong and change my thoughts tomorrow. It’s all about experience, right? I respect your experience this far. Your journey has been long as has been my own and not without troubles. Did you really lose faith because you couldn’t win an arguement with an atheist? I personally just couldn’t make sense of the Christian stuff.

            Calming racing thoughts is quite an accomplishment. Good practice too. I redirect my thoughts a lot to maintain a constant. To sleep I do projects in my head, repipes, bathroom remodels, whatever I’m working on. I talked to a psychiatrist from India who told me medication or meditation would be a part of my life the rest of my life. I chose a change in thought rather than take medication, which I did for a couple years then quit. The medication was causing me to be not so anal about my work. It’s the perfection that separates me from the rest. Perfection is a must. Not that just caring for the house and people isn’t enough and more than most around here are willing to give. They want money, that’s it.

            It is our purpose here I believe to serve ourselves, and in doing so, we must serve others. We must, it’s built in to us. Even when I don’t want to I feel I must. The Chinese believe that respect and bettering ones self is of the highest importance. To always be better than we once were. Combine all religious beliefs including science and we find many answers pointing in a much better direction. So I will never drown myself in a single belief such as Christianity. Prejudice is damaging. We SHOULD be free to examine all possibilities. Your views are important as well.

            You didn’t respond to something though, are you in the right place? The final destination. The correct belief? Or is it just for now because it works best for you? There is not a right answer here, I’m not here to judge. I’m Just curious.

          • Patrick Gannon

            We’re not far apart, but I’ll comment on a couple things…

            You mention that consciousness is a product of anything with a brain. This is a claim, but it is one with quite a bit of objective evidence. Neale and most New Age folks might suggest that consciousness is everything, and that it can most certainly exist without a brain. They have no objective evidence for that.

            “Nothing but God existed in the beginning. A Christian point. So all things created must be made of the only thing that existed.” You say this as a truism, but this is not a conclusion, it is a claim. There is absolutely no evidence that any god ever existed. None whatsoever. I think we should be careful of speaking in absolutes. It is possible that some god existed in the beginning – but I strive to avoid speaking in absolutes about things that are claims rather than truths. Neale, bless his soul, does this a lot. He speaks authoritatively and in absolute terms about his beliefs, and then points out that we don’t have to believe them. Lately he has been adding caveats at the end of his spiels, saying we don’t have to believe any of it. He didn’t always do that.

            No, I didn’t lose faith because of losing an argument with an atheist. My path was a solitary one. I never argued my Christian faith with atheists; though I did later argue my New Age faith with them. As they would always ask for evidence – I was always reading and trying to find it, and alas, the harder I looked, the more elusive the evidence became. I wanted to believe in the New Age God; I really did. I still do, and if the evidence can be found, I’ll be quite excited; but with age, occasionally comes wisdom, and wisdom tells me to be patient and not believe anything until the truth is known.

            Am I in the right place? Good question. I think so. It feels “right.” I think the final destination is death and either composting or being turned to ashes. I will live on as long as the human genome lives on and some part of my DNA is included in it. I will also live on in any lives that I have influenced and any memories I have left. That’s enough.

          • Jethro

            Yes sir, that is enough. To thine own self be true. I use to say that a lot, I still believe it. Regardless of any differences we have in belief this one statement shall eliminate all arguement as there aren’t any if we remember….wisdom tells me to be patient and not believe anything until the truth is known. I really like that! with that said it’s all true or false depending on what is needed at any given moment.

            I know what others believe of consciousness. One consciousness is a result of one needing the other, I’m not opposed to believing in an after life or an energy referred to as God. I was raised to do so. In a short 6 years all that was changed for the better. I quit being so angry about it. Humanity will get it figured out if it doesn’t destroy itself first.

            I hold a belief in God, I just can’t explain my idea of it. I don’t have to call it God. I’m not busy, I’ll try to explain. You may have a word. All of the people on earth come together. The collective thought of all those people stating what is correct is called the voice of god. They just don’t realize it. I mean, the world wrote the Ten Commandments. Then we have a silent voice inside that knows our truth, what’s wrong and right. Our bodies conduct the thoughts of human desire, but that other voice, the one that agrees with the world, that’s another version of god, our soul voice. I found Neale, whether he knew it or not, describing this very thing. Making God more of a psychological being than a bright light in the minds of the holy. I’m going to go with that for a while. There is most certainly something deeper to discover. It will be about humanity though and have everything to do with god or nothing at all. Humanity is growing intelligent enough to quit using god to explain away all that they didn’t know. The Tower of Babel, it has to be a children’s story.

            “Nothing but God existed in the beginning. A Christian point. So all things created must be made of the only thing that existed.” You say this as a truism….” I like this thought, but I say this to stop Christians from making a separation while I’m trying to show them that if there is a god they would do well to understand that they themselves are part of the process of life. They feel they can believe in God and separate themselves while still claiming to believe. I disagree. So when I put that on them they are forced to choose something. Their belief is none of my business, I just don’t like scripture being thrown at me. They can talk from the mind, heart, or soul. If they can’t do that, they’ve learned nothing but parroting. I’m actually speaking about a friend but am applying it generally as well.

          • Patrick Gannon

            The best remedy for combating scriptures being thrown at you is to read the whole thing yourself. You find that in most cases, the scripture they quote is out of context, and can often be turned around on them. Many of the passages they throw out have completely contradictory scriptures one can respond with. Casting doubt on the “inspiration” of scriptures for which Yahweh and Jesus couldn’t even protect any original copies, may provide some benefit in working with these individuals suffering from cognitive dissonance.

          • Ruthie

            Hi again Patrick – you do make some good points , but you are still , like all of us , just going on what you choose to believe .. Have you heard of Gregg Braden ? He is a scientist . He says science has proven consciousness exists outside of our human minds . They took a particle of matter and split it into two – they were then separated by 9 kilometres .. One particle was manipulated , and the other one , 9 kilometres away , responded exactly the same way , even though it was un-manipulated .. It has also been scientifically proven that plants respond to our thoughts – think harm towards them and they record a stress response .. think nice thoughts about them and they have a normal “relaxed” response .. these are just two examples ..
            Ultimately , it matters not – you can hold your core beliefs and l will hold mine .. I know what l feel in my heart – what rings true for me. That’s all anyone can do – and Neale has always said this . Go with what feels right for you ..
            Why does it bug you so ?
            I wish you a happy life , Ruthie

          • Patrick Gannon

            I try very hard to avoid “believing in” and prefer instead to “think that..”

            We don’t “choose” what to believe. I can’t just choose out of the blue to believe in the virgin birth and resurrection of a guy named Jesus 2000 years ago. I know too much about the realistic probabilities of these things happening to simply “choose” to believe them, no more than I can choose to believe in the tooth fairy. Beliefs are something we are ingrained with in a number of different ways, and we have to challenge those beliefs, not simply “choose” to believe something else. I can’t just “choose” to believe in a universal consciousness, given that I know we have no compelling, objective evidence for consciousness surviving the death of a brain.

            Let’s not talk about Gregg Braden. He can call himself whatever he wants. He does not follow the scientific process. We have a participant here, Mr. Awareness who occasionally fills us in on the amazing miracles of Mr. Braden. I’ve done my own research. I’ll pass on the quacks, thank you, very much.

            What you described is the property of entanglement, an observation of quantum mechanics – a theory which works exceedingly well, but which scientists still don’t understand and Braden is most certainly not a quantum physicist – nor is Deepak Chopra or Neale Donald Walsch and many other New Age gurus who know nothing about quantum mechanics, yet have the arrogance to say they understand something the scientific community itself does not yet fully understand. This property of entanglement does not prove universal consciousness, it only proves entanglement. This is a god of the gaps argument. We don’t understand it, so god must have done it. Patience, grasshopper – we’ll figure it out. In the meantime, look to actual quantum physicists rather than quantum quacks for your information.

            Why does it bug me so? It bugs me in part when New Age gurus use pseudoscience to leverage the ignorance of Joe Public who understands nothing of quantum mechanics. Speaking freely on subjects about which one knows little or nothing may sell New Age products, but it does not advance human knowledge or truth about how our universe works.

            The other reason it bugs me is that some researchers think that holding unsupported beliefs may not be good for our mental health as individuals and as a society. I’m interested in the welfare of the individual and society, and if, as seems to be the case, holding unsupported beliefs makes us anxious, angry, hostile – then these unsupported beliefs may be non-beneficial and dangerous.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Jethro,

            Despite statements by others to the contrary, I do not consider CWG to be a religion, do not want it to be a religion, do not treat it like a religion or the books like holy scripture, and merely addressed the points in Neale’s column one by one rather than professing a statement of faith, or citing a creed or liitany. I hope that when you read my comments here, you take them at face value rather than what others may believe about what I share.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            Hi Annie, I will develop my own opinion of you or what you you are saying when the conversation is between you and I. I don’t do trailer park drama. If I’m going to hold a negative opinion of you it will be because of something you say, Not something Patrick has to say about you. Don’t give it another thought. If you did hold Neales books as religion it’s none of my business, your allowed. Your life allows you to take whatever steps you need, just as Patrick. I’m not here to spread prejudice. Or receive it.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Jethro,

            It’s good to know I’m not the only one who feels frustrated at some responses. I also think through my comments before posting. I generally draft them in another app, then copy and paste them here. It doesn’t usually serve me well to immediately respond because my emotions may be running high or my thoughts may not be complete.

            I get frustrated with people questioning anyone’s motives, especially when they’ve made a clear statement that someone then doesn’t accept, and even argues with. For example, Neale has stated why he considers CWG a theology and provides the definition on which he bases his reasoning. While people are free to disagree, I find it disrespectful to question his motives. The phrasing of “accusing” him of starting a religion is different from saying it may have started as theology but has developed into a religion by some who have immersed themselves in it. I personally still think the term theology is more appropriate, and I stated so. I’m also very much into using words appropriately, taught by my mother that each have specific meanings.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            In my current beliefs the first was realizing we are all the same in one way or another. No matter what we are never alone in our thoughts. I also use another app to type lol. Keeps me from hitting the post button prematurely.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Playing devil’s advocate; how do you know that we are never alone in out thoughts? If indeed consciousness is an emergent quality that comes from the brain as the current evidence suggests, then nobody reads our thoughts but ourselves.

            I used to hate the damnable invasion of privacy that was Yahweh reading all my thoughts. One of the best things about getting rid of gods, was getting a sense of privacy for the first time in my life.

            And what of those thoughts? How responsible are we for them? Thoughts just arise in our brains, unbidden or called for. We have no control over them; they simply arise. For a very interesting study, read the short book by Sam Harris called “Free Will.”

            If what you are saying is more allegorical, as in telling a sick person that they are in your thoughts, then I can buy that; but the idea that our thoughts are shared by some Oneness thing? That has to be proven – and one day, I’m pretty confident, we’ll know one way or the other.

          • Jethro

            You’ve given me to much credit, I’ve never known of a true clairvoyant. I will not claim it’s possible until it’s proven to me. I’ve been told that God is an entity with in the temple. The body is the temple. Therefore you are your own God. When Christians say god will get you for that, I believe your feeling of guilt is what will get you. Nobody is listening but you….. I could be wrong about this….. when I told Annie that she is not alone in her thoughts, I meant regardless of any thoughts we may have good or bad, somebody on earth has had the same thought. I’ll even go another step and say at least one person has acted on it. Humans are not that different from one to another. a mentalist, a crook, and a salesman know this to be very true.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m on-board with most of that. I don’t think CwG is, though.

          • Jethro

            Three different experiences can produce three different opinions. I think even Neale only states it’s possible. We’re still left to wonder. Is it possible? I don’t know, but I don’t know many things. I won’t try to argue about it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Neale is playing word games…

            the·ol·o·gy

            -the study of the nature of God and religious belief.

            -religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.

            re·li·gion

            -the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

            -a particular system of faith and worship.

            faith

            1.complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

            2.strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

            CwG like Catholicism, is a theology – a religious belief that has been systematically developed. It studies its own god and its own beliefs.

            CwG, like Catholicism is a religion – it has a belief in a superhuman, personal god. It is a particular system of faith and worship

            CwG, like Catholicism has a strong faith-based belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. We know that as a result of ongoing discussions.

            Yes, the beliefs are admittedly different when we contrast Catholicism with CwG, but if Catholicism is a theology, a religion and a faith, so too is CwG.

            Sure, Neale can twist the words to make theology, religion and faith mean whatever he wants them to mean; but for those of us who start with a dictionary definition, it’s a religion. The word “religion” does not have very favorable “curb appeal” at this time, so it’s understandable that he would try to call his movement something different, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck….

          • Spiritual_Annie

            From wikidiff[dot]com:

            “As nouns the difference between religion and theology is that religion is the belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods while theology is the study of god, or a god, or gods, and the truthfulness of religion in general.” (emphasis added)

            Definitions depend on the source used. Definitions also change over time to reflect actual usage and are, therefore, fluid.

            What I found disturbing, as I stated, is the questioning of motives, especially due to the use of the phrasing of “accusing” Neale of starting a religion.

            And I’m not ignorant, needing you to supply definitions for me. I’m actually quite well read, much more so than you generally assume.

          • Patrick Gannon

            But CwG is “the belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power.” The term “worship” may be different than the way other religions worship their gods, but the concept is the same.

            Worship: “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.” That’s what we’re talking about here. One has to play word games to try and weasel out of it being a religion. That shouldn’t be necessary if it didn’t fit the definitions – both of our definitions. Catholicism is both a theology and a religion and a faith – the same is true for CwG. At the very least, it’s a quasi-religion.

            I don’t think that I used the word “accuse” or “accusing.” That was your word. I searched and don’t find where I used that word. Not sure what your point is here, unless you are trying to straw-man me again.

            However I do accuse Neale of starting a religion, if it makes you feel better to have me say so unambiguously. That’s basically what I thought it was meant to be when I first read CwG many years ago, and it became more and more religious in nature as time went on.

            Did I suggest that you were ignorant? Am I not permitted to use sources to make my points? Neale says CwG is a theology, not a religion, but the definitions of those words make it clear, that like Catholicism, it’s both.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            My experience with CWG does not include the worship of a supernatural controlling power, or a personal God.

            As I have previously stated, I believe in a creative energy from which all known and unknown realms originate and continue to be created. For the sake of conversation and because I want to rehabilitate the terms, I use Divinity or God here. I have previously stated that, as well.

            In any case, I do not worship, or have a “feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.” I have an understanding that the creative energy from which all things come and are part of can be used consciously or unconsciously. For me, CWG is about using that creative energy consciously.

            In practice, religion consists of a series of rituals that one must undergo in order to become a member, whether it be baptism or confirmation or a simple membership service. There are regular community gatherings, or services, that follow a specific order involving praise and worship. Part of the order of service often includes responsorials, where an intercessory between God and the members exchange dogmatic creeds. The intercessory also often performs rituals with sacred objects, such as the bread and wine of communion or the kissing of and prayer over the Talmud. Many religions require other actions by its members, such as confession or specific prayers at specific times or dictates about how to dress.

            CWG has no rituals of membership of which I am aware, nor any membership at all. There are small group gatherings of people interested in CWG, but the only ones of which I’m aware are for discussion and exploration. There is no praise or worship, or dogmatic responsorials, or intercessories, or rituals with sacred objects, or other requirements such as confession or specific prayers at specific times or dictates about how to dress.

            I do not see CWG as a religion either by definition or practice.

          • Ruthie

            Hi Patrick – hmm , l wonder – have you actually read the CWG books ? Because l have , several times , and l have never seen a “superhuman” God described .. God , Source , Original Essence – whatever you want to call it , is not a human , for starters ..
            There are no “doctrines ” in CWG .. There are ideas put forward to have a peaceful , calm life and to allow others the same ..
            ” Systematically developed .” ? Not to me .. just a series of books explaining the ideas that have been suggested ..
            See my comment to Annie and Jethro . Organized religions have rules which must be obeyed ( with an implied or stated threat of what will happen if you don’t obey) – CWG does not ..
            For me , it is that simple . I suspect though , that for you it is not .
            Best wishes Patrick , Ruthie

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes, Ruthie, I have read many of his books and have read or listened to CwG (1) many, many times. The word “superhuman” came from the dictionary definition. Not all characteristics necessarily apply. Neale’s god is greater than a human – thus a superhuman, however. Neale frequently uses the word “deity” which implies a personal god – a human god, a being. Then again, he will sometimes describe his god in a way that is not at all human – a universal consciousness, an energy, a force. It has to be a “personal” god in order for it to have a “conversation” with Neale. It had a personal relationship with Neale, or so he apparently believes. That makes his god a personal god, a deity; a nice one, unlike Yahweh, but a superhuman god nonetheless.

            Not all organized religions have rules that must be obeyed – see the Universalist Unitarian Church. Nobody is thrown out for what they believe or fail to believe. At a minimum CwG is a quasi-religion in my opinion, and I can see no more accurate way to think of, or refer to it. I don’t understand why people get their panties in a wad over this. Better to be a religion than a cult, right? I have seen CwG referred to as a cult by more than one Christian.

          • Ruthie

            Hi Patrick – this is a reply to both your recent posts to me .. Firstly l gotta say that l am enjoying this – you do make me laugh ! Thankyou . I love your anti-stance , l love that you have a go at other’s beliefs – l love that you question everything – all good stuff ! We are more at choice than you think , however .. As soon as you think that you have no control over your own beliefs , you are then a slave to your mind .. don’t be that .
            It isn’t helpful for you .
            A belief is really just a thought that you have repeatedly had that you agree with – that you feel is true and accepted as that .
            Re science – way back , scientists thought the Earth was flat .. They were “sure” of it .. Also , way back , before Galilieo , “scientists” thought the Universe revolved around the Earth ..
            Both completely wrong ..
            My point is , Patrick , that science evolves too – they keep discovering “new” formulas and things , and even discover they are wrong sometimes .. Science requires a human-mind to apply it , and human-minds are very fallible .. I’m sure you would agree with that .
            Re beliefs – so , does holding your “supported” beliefs make you happy , peaceful , calm and loving ?
            It’s fantastic that you care about the world , but you seem very attached to how that caring is “delivered” by others . You can not control others , so why not just let that go ? Other people have to decide for themselves what they think is true – what resonates within them – there’s nothing you can do about that .
            If believing in an original intelligent source helps people to feel peaceful and happy , how can that be harmful ? This is a rhetorical question , by the way .. A belief in a biblical judgemental male-God can certainly cause a lot of harm – that is obvious .. but that is not what l’m talking about here ..
            Anyway Patrick , l have enjoyed conversing with you – l was greatly amused by your ” have patience , Grasshopper” reference ..
            Keep doubting and questioning , if you feel you must – but try not to denigrate others , even if you feel they have done this to you .
            Best wishes to you , please keep that mind and heart open .
            Much love from Ruthie xx

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Ruthie. I don’t think I insinuated that we have no control over our beliefs. Indeed my position is that we should challenge our own beliefs on an ongoing basis and seek to dispel those that are not supported by any reasonable evidence. It is our minds that we cannot trust, so subjective evidence is of very little value, particularly as contrasted with objective evidence.

            I think you missed the primary point why science works. It is a process that is based on observation, experimentation, prediction and relies on objective evidence. The old theories fell because the process works. Have you ever seen a bible changed to reflect that we know beyond any reasonable doubt that the world was not created in six days? Science works, that’s why we rely on it to give us the best possible explanation at any given time. Religions or faith systems, start with conclusions and then seek ways to prove the conclusions. This is not how science works.

            I completely agree that human minds are very fallible, and that is exactly why we have to rely on objective evidence. We can’t fully trust what comes out of our minds.

            I don’t know what “supported” beliefs you think it is that I hold. I think with almost 100% certainty that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning. That’s a supported “belief” if one insists on using that easily misconstrued word. Does this “belief” make me happy, peaceful, calm and loving? I’m sure the stability, the confidence that the sun will rise as it always has can contribute to a measure of those things, but it’s mostly moot.

            I think that there is a high likelihood that this life is all we get. Does that make me happy, peaceful, calm and loving? I don’t know, it doesn’t make me the opposite of those things! How important are those things anyway? Humans seem to be preoccupied with trying to be happy – but if you look at those who contributed the most, they were seldom if ever focused on personal happiness. I’m not sure that making happiness a goal, is the best way to give our lives purpose – but each person has to decide that for themselves. It seems to me that the more you chase happiness, the more elusive it becomes.

            You said, “It’s fantastic that you care about the world , but you seem very attached to how that caring is “delivered” by others…” I don’t understand your point here. It’s not caring, for example, when someone butchers quantum mechanics and takes advantage of people even more ignorant than they are in order to sell beliefs for a profit.

            “You can not control others , so why not just let that go ?” I’m not trying to control others. If I am trying to do so, then so is Neale. Why is it OK for him? I am trying to influence others, as is Neale.

            “Other people have to decide for themselves what they think is true – what resonates within them – there’s nothing you can do about that.” Sure there is. I can do the same thing I wish someone had done for me when I was younger, and that is to provide information that challenges the beliefs I was indoctrinated with. I can’t make anyone believe anything, but I can provide arguments, discussion and evidence that can influence them to do so. I can provide an alternative, another way of looking at things. Neale has spent an entire career as an author, trying to influence what people believe to be true and to make his beliefs resonate within them. I know in our society we are not supposed to question religious beliefs, but phooey on that! Neale doesn’t get a free pass, any more than the Pope or Billy Graham.

            “If believing in an original intelligent source helps people to feel peaceful and happy , how can that be harmful” Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in “an original intelligent source” and if you take a gander at a history book or two, you will see the results of that belief. At the time that the texts describing these original intelligent sources were written, the authors surely didn’t foresee all the bloodshed, violence, torture, shame, guilt, fear, etc. that they would cause because people believed things for which they had no evidence. Yes Neale’s god is much nicer, but she’s still a belief, and she could be turned into a monster at some point in the future just like Jesus was. I can’t think of an example of how this would happen, right off the bat, but I can certainly see that these “revelations” could be used to part fools from their money.

            However, you hit on the very question I have asked again and again here, and that is – does holding these unsupported beliefs really make us peaceful and happy, or does holding these unsupported beliefs set up internal cognitive conflicts in our brain that work in small ways to make us more anxious, angry, defensive, etc.? My questioning of beliefs seems to have led to quite a bit of that sort of response, here and in other forums. Why do so many people get hostile when their beliefs are challenged?

          • Ruthie

            Hey Patrick – for me , happiness comes very naturally from enjoying giving and helping others .. It’s not about “chasing” it ..it is a natural consequence when the world makes sense and one feels an inner joy in contributing .. People tend to chase happiness in all the “wrong” places , that’s why it seems so elusive for many ..
            Re your last statement – are others really getting hostile towards you , or is that just your perception ? Sometimes it is hard to tell what the other person is feeling when we communicate via text – you can not see the person’s face or hear their voice .. There may be a light-heartedness that doesn’t come across in text , or a smile on their face as they type .( like me right now)
            Obviously l can’t speak for others , and sometimes it would be obvious someone is hostile … l do think that people sometimes get hostile about their beliefs being challenged because they have some fear inside – fear of the “crutch” being pulled out from under them .. Yes , that’s right – l agree that many people use religion as a crutch – that’s a part of the reason l would never belong to any organized religion ..
            So , let’s complete this conversation we’re having by agreeing to disagree on whether CWG is a religion ..
            To me , it is absolutely not . I do not blindly follow Neale , because l actually disagree with a couple of his ideas .. ( and he knows this ) I have a very broad spirituality which includes CWG and Wayne Dyer and many sages , “Masters ” and mystics over the ages .
            Good on you Patrick for challenging what you see to be the status quo .. If it brings you joy or a feeling of satisfaction , then go for it .. Best wishes in life , love from Ruthie

          • Patrick Gannon

            LOL. No, Ruthie, you have not exhibited hostility to me as have others who have called me a liar, a fool, a child, ignorant, and so on. I have no problem with hard hitting debate, but when people start throwing personal insults, you know there’s some hostility involved. When you raise a topic of conversation and all the person wants to talk about is the person making raising the topic, rather than the topic itself, there’s generally some hostility involved that comes through pretty clearly.

            I agree that chasing happiness is counterproductive, but if you look at our society, all the advertisements, everything is all focused on helping us find “happiness.” It’s all about being happy. I suppose that is a noble goal to provide for others, but I’m not sure it is the noblest goal to wish for one’s self. I think we agree on that.

          • Jethro

            I’m sorry Annie, I looked up theology in the dictionary and found the below definition. I needed some time think about it and get back to you and waited too long, that is I forgot. The definition implies religion which surprised me. I understand I can have a theory about how my coffee maker works but when my study of coffee makers becomes a theology god enters the picture. Neales writing gives us a new theory about god but for sake of religious affiliation we cannot say “theology” to make a point that we do not believe it to be a religion. It becomes a word game… we just talked about words being sacred and choosing them carefully. The importance of this doubles if trying to make a point.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Jethro,

            This is what I found and included in my reply to Patrick, which says to me that CWG is theology rather than religion.

            From wikidiff[dot]com:

            “As nouns the difference between religion and theology is that religion is the belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods while theology is the study of god, or a god, or gods, and the truthfulness of religion in general.” (emphasis added)

            There is more in my other replies as well that state why I consider CWG a theology rather than a religion. I’m happy to disagree with you and respect your views, however, as we each experience CWG in our own way.

            Love and Blessings Always,
            ~Annie

          • Jethro

            I may have worded my post incorrectly, I agree with theology. A study of. I didn’t respond in my original post because I looked at the definition and knew the post below would appear. We don’t disagree on this.

          • Ruthie

            Hi Jethro and Annie , don’t get too hooked on words (semantics) ok?
            Yes , words are important because they are a tool for communicating feelings and ideas , but just don’t be attached to them . Sometimes they just can’t adequately describe the ideas involved . For me , the point is that neither the CWG material or Neale requires any “obedience” to any set of rules . There are no rules – which organized religions always have .. There are just ideas to live by , if we choose .. That’s it . So , to me , that means it can not be defined as a religion . Call it a philosophy if you wish . It doesn’t really matter – it’s just a really lovely way to live .
            Take care , with much love from Ruthie xx

          • Jethro

            Most certainly Ruthie, CWG is an awesome point of view. I’m sure I can speak for Annie as well when I say we both enjoy Neales writing. We just happened to be talking about how people take things out of context which creates arguement. Also trying to say the proper things that keep others from believing we might be expressing in a negative emotion. We noticed without facial expressions and tones of voice that choosing words carefully had become important in certain cases. I.e., careful with the all caps, you might be yelling. Thank you for the kind input.

    • A true friend

      “One example is what is referred to as “cherry picking,”” Is this comment direct at me? I have saw another post by you with somehow the same point, It’s night in my side of the world so I will write proper response tomorrow

      • Patrick Gannon

        LOL. No, that’s almost certainly directed to me, ATF.

        Now I will probably start hearing a rendition of Carly Simon’s “You’re So Vain” floating through my speakers! Annie and I don’t play well together. Offer her some cheese to go with the whine.

        Annie and I reached a point where I stopped reading most of her posts, and she probably did the same with mine. However when I read this one, I realized that it had the makings of a profession of faith. Start changing the words, “I agree” to “I believe” and you have the beginnings of a New Age Nicene Creed.

      • Spiritual_Annie

        ATF,

        My comments were written about the points Neale addressed in his column, and some habits we have all fallen into. I don’t exclude myself from picking up these habits.

        Love and Blessings Always,
        ~Annie

  • Just Werner

    Hesitation, can i speek freely without knowledge. just the feeling about what’s going on.

    • Kasey Anderson

      I’m new, but as far as I’m concerned you can. There’s not really speech restrictions that I’m aware of.

    • Spiritual_Annie

      Just Werner,

      I think the only restrictions are comments that include links to other sites, and the use of curse words. My comments addressed Neale’s points in his column, and my own thoughts about some of the habits we’ve all developed here.

      Love and Blessings Always,
      ~Annie

    • Awareness

      Welcome 🙂 Simply follow your Heart 🙂 From the website itself I quote the following:

      “The mission of The Global Conversation website is to generate an ongoing sharing of thoughts, ideas, and opinions at this internet location in an interchange that we hope will produce an ongoing and expanding conversation ultimately generating wider benefit for our world. For this reason, links that draw people away from this site will be removed from our Comments Section, a process which may delay publication of your post. If you wish to include in your Comment the point of view of someone other than yourself, please feel free to report those views in full (and even reprint them) here.” 🙂

      Bless ALL 🙂

  • Patrick Gannon

    Neale’s weekend (Dec 9, 2016) newsletter is essentially the same article as above, without referencing my name or that of A True Friend (ATF). In that newsletter Neale asks for sources to support my assertion that he had denigrated atheists and agnostics. I posted that source in the thread below, about a week ago, but perhaps he did not see it, so I shall copy it again here at the top of the thread:

    “Found it. An Open Letter to Our World: IS IT POSSIBLE THAT GOD DOES NOT EVEN EXIST? March 22, 2015

    “The questions are important because they invite us to ponder some of the most self-damaging ideas about God ever embraced by our species. For example, after the idea that God is to be feared, I believe that the second most damaging notion that some humans hold about God is the thought that God might not even exist.

    Why this is damaging is that it stops all atheists and many agnostics from using God’s power, even as the whole of humanity seeks to work collaboratively to create the life we all say we want for everyone on this planet.”

    This article tells us that atheism and agnosticism are self-damaging and that such people are not contributing society and the rest of humanity because they are not using God’s power. We have no evidence for gods and when you look at the contributions from atheists and agnostics, and then suggest that they are not contributing to society – well, that’s just ridiculous. Then he quotes Albert Einstein who was an agnostic or atheist depending on who you ask. Einstein didn’t contribute to our society? In a nutshell, this article said to me that atheists and agnostics are damaging for this world because they are not working collaboratively with believers to create a better life here.

    It was very annoying to me because at the time, religious people were attacking LGBTs and gay folks while the Supreme Court was debating gay marriage. Atheists and agnostics were not those spewing hate and hostility to the other as believers were. From the comments you can see that I was not the only person annoyed by this article.”

    He said that if I would cite sources he would “explain or retract them.” I am still waiting…

  • Ruthie

    Hi Patrick – l don’t wish to get into a long drawn -out debate with you , but l would like to ask you a question .. Regardless of your beliefs , is there anything actually wrong with a spiritual community spreading a message of unconditional love and peace ? Forget about the religious people who are anti-gay – they are , through lack of understanding , not operating from unconditional love and peace . You won’t find any CWG people in that group ..

    • Patrick Gannon

      No, of course there is nothing wrong with spreading a message of unconditional love and peace – a message that many atheists and agnostics also spread. CwG’s message of love and peace is wrapped up in beliefs, just like other religions, and my question is – does holding beliefs that we know we cannot support with objective evidence negate or weaken that message of love and peace, if holding such beliefs causes us internal cognitive conflict that affects our behavior?

      • Ruthie

        I can’t speak for others Patrick , but l can say that there is no internal conflict for me .. If there is internal conflict of any kind because of beliefs one holds , then l would suggest that is a big clue about those beliefs .
        The only beliefs l have feel completely natural and resonate deeply within.
        Isn’t that all any of us can do ? Go with what feels right for us..? By the way , just so you understand , l spent 46 years of my life as a staunch atheist – so l know what it feels like to see life from your perspective .. Once upon a time l would have been saying the same things you do ..
        It matters not to me whether you do or don’t have awareness of Source – we can all live together happily if we just accept each other without judgement .. If we both know that , that’s fantastic ..
        Take care , love from Ruthie

        • Patrick Gannon

          If you ask a fundamentalist Christian who has been educated in the science of evolution, but who nevertheless believes in a six day creation, you have an internal cognitive conflict. Researchers call it cognitive dissonance and there is evidence that indicates that the activity in the brain when dissonance is active, is in the same areas as anger and similar emotions.

          Believing in a “Source” which for the sake of argument, we’ll refer to as a universal consciousness, is not quite the same as believing in a six day creation. There are libraries and universities and museums overloaded with information to refute a six day creation, but not nearly that much information refuting a universal consciousness. At this point, the consensus is ‘probably not, but not ruled out yet.’ That level of cognitive conflict, in which your brain knows that it has no objective evidence for this Source, and you believing it anyway, is surely not as severe as the cognitive conflict when one knows there is overwhelming evidence against a six day creation.

          The cognitive conflict is surely quite small, given that it’s a case of knowing you don’t know, rather than knowing there’s a lot of evidence against it – but it is, I propose, a conflict. It seems that for some number of individuals, this conflict is enough to really rile them up if you question their beliefs. I think I’ve riled up Neale!

          Just so you know, I don’t consider myself atheist so much as agnostic. I don’t like the word atheist since it applies a lack of belief in something. I lack beliefs in all sorts of things, but we don’t have special words for those. I’m not an a-unicornist or a-fairyist, for example. I prefer agnostic – I lack knowledge. We all do,. Agnostics admit it.