Do you see anything contradictory in using the Death Penalty as a Society’s means of deterring people from killing people?
Comments
33 responses to “”
-
It’s about as logical as bombing nations to achieve peace, or taking people’s rights away in the name of freedom.
If wars created peace, one would think that enough human blood has been spilled from the beginning of recorded history to create Heaven on earth.
Those who support the death penalty, which is cold-blooded murder, may not be so concerned about deterrence, which has been proven not to work, and more about revenge. Indeed, the relatives of victims often want the perpetrator to “pay”, and frequently express the fact that they cannot find “peace” unless the perpetrator is executed.
Society’s rules dictate that it is wrong for the individual citizen to kill, but for the State, it is perfectly justified. This is the ultimate abuse of power, even if declared “legal” by rule books that were created by individuals who were not necessarily rational, and supported by a public whose consciousness is still rooted in the dark ages.
-
Neale, I made my comment before reading your new column under “Headline”, glad to see we think the same way about the death penalty and the revenge of the public.
There is a primitive mindset out there that has yet to be healed…and that reminds me of how some religious fundamentalists appear to greatly enjoy the idea of “sinners” ending up in “hell”.
Compassion is still a dirty word in some circles, and love is still understood to imply loving only those who act, think and believe the same as oneself.
-
If you believe in the 10 Commandments, it says ‘Thou shalt not kill’. It doesn’t say ‘Thou shalt not kill unless you think they deserve it.’ Most people kill in the heat of the moment so the death penalty could in no way be a deterrent.
-
For God’s sake, are people here ten years-old? The state does many things that would be illegal for an individual to do — such as taking money from others as taxes, an action near and dear to the hearts of everyone who voted for Obama.
There are a number of studies that show that the death penalty does deter further murders. In any event it does deter the murderer in question from doing so, and there are many murderers who were released from prison who went on to kill more people.
Perhaps Neale and others, rather than sneering at the death penalty, would care to support their implied position that abolishing the death penalty deters murder. I would be curious to read such an argument.
The death penalty isn’t my idea of a perfect solution. My brother was murdered and I’m not thirsting for revenge. I do think, however, that it’s arguable that murderers should be executed.
-
Life without parole Sinclair is a practical deterrent to a murderer killing again.
As far as taxes Sinclair, as was under the impression that I was also paying taxes under Reagan and the two Bushes…perhaps I just dreamt it.
-
Joyce, unfortunately, those who follow the bible do so literally when it suits them, and change the meaning likewise…so they now say: “Thou shall not murder”, to justify war and the death penalty.
-
Life without parole Sinclair is a practical deterrent to a murderer killing again.
Sure. But, as I say, there are studies that show the death penalty deters other murders more than the possibility of a life sentence.
As far as taxes Sinclair, as was under the impression that I was also paying taxes under Reagan and the two Bushes…perhaps I just dreamt it.
Right, but you voted for Obama who wants *more* taxes, and that was one of the only substantive points in his 2012 campaign.
-
Joyce, unfortunately, those who follow the bible do so literally when it suits them, and change the meaning likewise…so they now say: “Thou shall not murder”, to justify war and the death penalty.
The Ten Commandments were for individuals, not communities. What bearing would not coveting a neighbor’s wife have for a community?
Jews and Christians have always understood this. Jewish and Christian communities have always had rights that went beyond those of the individual.
Why is this so hard to understand?
-
Sinclair, individuals form communities, and their personal choices and behaviors define the nature of a community, as well as of the world at large.
Isn’t this precisely why conservative Christians are against gay marriage, even though marriage is a personal choice, because they think it will “ruin” society?
-
mewabe: A community is made up of individuals, but it is not an individual, and its rights are not those of the individual.
A community may take money from its members, but if you do that, it’s theft.
A community may imprison members for crimes, but if you do that, it’s kidnapping.
A community may conscript members for the military, but if you do that, it’s kidnapping.
A community may order its military members to kill, but if you to that, it’s murder.
A community may execute members after a trial, but if you do that, it’s murder.
Clear?
If the members of a community wish to limit the community from the death penalty, they can do that through whatever means is available for changing the rules of a community.
As to gay marriage, that’s a different discussion and the conservative Christian position, as I understand it, is only tangentially based on harm to society.
-
Sinclair, you are ignoring that fact that most laws in so called Christian nations were originally based on religious principles and teachings, including the 10 commandments.
I would advise you to drop the attitude, it does not make you sound intelligent.
-
mewabe: You have plenty of attitude for both of us. I am not the subject of this discussion and I have no interest in your advice now or ever.
Sure, our society is based on Judeo-Christian principles for individual behavior, but it is simply a fallacy to argue that means that society must behave by the same rules as individuals.
No Jewish or Christian society has ever done so. No human society I can think of has ever done so. It’s unworkable. All societies must do things that would be illegal for individuals to do on their own.
I’ve thought long and hard about the death penalty and I am ambivalent. However, it’s fine with me if people wish to oppose it, but if they imagine they do so because the “Thou Shalt Not Kill” should apply to society just as it applies to individuals, I think it’s a false, ill-considered argument.
-
Okay Sinclair, now your explanation makes a little more sense to me.
My argument however is not about “thou shall not kill”, as I am not Christian nor do I follow any religion. I simply do not believe in killing, from my own conviction, except in strict defense and as a very last resort, when all other means of self-protections or of the protection of another are unavailable.
I am not arguing the legality of murder by government (death penalty), or whether all human societies have indulged in such (that’s true, they have, in one form or another).
I am simply against killing, whether in war or by the legal system. In the case of murder I believe life without parole would be a very workable improvement.
However, humanity has historically proven that it has an unquenchable thirst for its own blood, so in one way or another the hobby of killing, for one reason or another, will keep on been very popular for quite some time.
-
Mewabe says ” I am simply against killing, …” and so will notice more killing in his world, giving him more of what he doesn’t want. This is further reinforced with “… the hobby of killing, for one reason or another, will keep on been very popular for quite some time.”
This has been my experience, due to my passionate opposition in the past to cigarette smoking. I now find myself surrounded by them nearly all the time.
Sinclair says “… I have no interest in your advice now or ever.” Yet he is engaging Mewabe in this debate / argument / dialectic / discussion / conversation thing, and giving Mewabe unspoken permission and encouragement to express opinions and advice, getting more of what he says he doesn’t want from Mewabe.
Can you see how much time we spend doing things we say we don’t want to do? We attract into our lives what we pay attention to, regardless of whether that energy is positive or negative.
Oh what a tangled web we weave …
-
Buzz, I see your point very well, but…you are seeing my words, not my mind.
My mind does not oppose anything, precisely because I know that to oppose an illusion is to make it real, to oppose something is to give it power, and because I know the new dawn does not come by fighting the night…it simply appears, and darkness goes away.
Poof!
And so I should have written “I am for life”…
Words are imperfect, and there is not always time to analyze every sentence.
But you are hired…
-
By the way Buzz you say you find yourself surrounded by cigarette smokers because passionately opposed, in the past, to cigarette smoking.
What you oppose, you not only empower but also notice more, that’s obvious. Sometimes the noticing becomes an obsession in the compulsive.
I do not mind noticing…even if what I am noticing is unpleasant. You can say no to something, without fear or hate, but with love.
Fear and hatred, obsession, rigidity and judgment are the real problems in opposition. But you can say no, I do not want this smelly horse dropping, with great kindness and perfect love.
-
I was beginning to wonder if there was a secret boycott against me, generated by the negativity of Kristen and Scott. Thank you for acknowledging my existence. Do you think it’s time I started using a different username?
I know I can say no, but it seems too easy. Learning to love and appreciate that which makes my skin crawl is the path of awareness. Understanding and being grateful for the things Kristen so passionately opposes, like sadism, doesn’t make me a sadist does it? I mean, I don’t enjoy inflicting pain and causing harm to an unwilling life form, but I can’t bring myself to hate those who do. It seems counterproductive, as hate begets hate, a self perpetuating cycle.
However, every time I breathe 2nd hand smoke I realise I am an unwilling recipient of someone’s addiction to self harm, and being harmed myself simply for being downwind. How can I learn to feel good about such compounded harmfulness? I am allowing them to harm themself by not acting, which they then do harm themself, and me too. So many negative feelings, it’s hard to see the positive. Further, if I move away, I am abandoning them for selfish reasons, further enabling the self harm.
-
Buzz, you cannot force others not to hurt themselves if such is their choice. You can only give then information, and most smokers have it and do not care.
There is nothing selfish about protecting yourself under such circumstance.Saying no does not imply hate or fear. Saying no to the death penalty does not imply any kind of hate against or fear of anyone or anything.
Gratefulness can be extended to everything in live, to the easy and to the difficult, the pleasant and the unpleasant, but it does not mean embracing the challenging to the point of self harm or harm to others.
For example I refuse to drink arsenic and to step on rattlesnakes…but that’s just me.
-
(The Global Conversation invites and values the contributions of anyone who feels moved to express thoughts and opinions, share observations, and engage in meaningful dialogue on our website. If you feel you need to do so anonymously, we respect that. However, posting under multiple user names in an effort to mislead others about who is doing the posting undermines the authenticity of our relationship with each other on this site, and inhibits a mutually beneficial exchange. The editing department of this newspaper will therefore promptly remove all posts that are designed to intentionally misinform or deceive whenever they are discovered. If you observe such deception, please inform us with a note to Lisa@TheGlobalConversation.com)
-
All you need to do is put a bag over the head of the smoker…problem solved.
-
Yes. It´s taking of life in both cases with no genuine right to do so in any case whatsoever. We are here to learn our ways to respect life.
-
What came to mind by of to read all of the above commentaries….will be of Everything felt much better BEFORE.
It is still workers who whistles while at work, laughing of jokes, happily ever to be as it is, and to go on with their daily lives as it IS.
Still the little enclaves of Peacefil environments “here and there” around in the world.
Each to have the own path, and “a mission” of to follow. AND they are “to live it” plainly, without any urge of “to save the world.” The Carpenters, the small Farmers, the Fishermen, the ever working housewives, the small children as in the olden days.I`m admiring the ones who of to have “other missions”….Such as to be a Policeman/woman(they are Social Workers of Mankind), a nurse, a doctor, or any “Rescue-Team” of some sorts.
It is just approximately 45 years ago of the biggest crimes (here among us up north)were the appel thives(or a bicycle or two)…youngsters who were caught when to try out the apple-trees in the neighbours garden.
The children who would “try out” their own liberty, or to obey the ten commandments(laughs). The naughty ones.
And when Elvis came along, the new music shattered the old polite behaviour among the teenagers…….Oh my, what a wonderful time(and innocent).P.S. Or else is it no Death-Sentences here with us. All of the killers and eventually the criminals(no matters of what they have done), will be put into modern and comfortable hotels(the muslims can ask for their own special-prepared food as they like…..and it is called Prisons.
Terrorists/Traitors, all the same.And am NOT joking.
-
Mewabe – I don’t really have anything to contribute here since it is similar to the headline thread. I just wanted you to know your jokes are not going unappreciated. I have extra bags in my car in case anyone needs one. For smokers or rattlesnakes….
-
Thanks *lisa*…
So here we have another horrible mass shooting tragedy in Connecticut…how many massacres does this make in 2012?
The media is again going to scratch its collective head about the why’s…what is it about our society (or “old cultural story”) that breeds these cruel, hateful, paranoid, resentful, brutal individuals who seem to think that the solution to their problems or suffering is to make others suffer more than they do, to hurt and kill someone, anyone?
Oh…let’s see…isn’t it how the entire nation reacted after 9/11, going after Iraq, that had nothing to do with 9/11 and had already suffered the death of hundreds of thousands of its children under sanctions, with “shock and awe”?
And what is it about the male psyche that causes men to do that, is it the belief that shooting a gun is the ultimate expression of male power (a Freudian symbolism)?
-
It is very possible, by the way, that those who commit such spectacular crimes as a mass shooting are in some peculiar way “channeling” the widespread and concentrated anger and hatred our society has accumulated and partly expressed in the last few years, and because of some mental imbalance act on it.
The same way Hitler was not just an individual but an “expression” of the collective unconscious.
-
My husband and I were talking about this issue last night. I mentioned it my comment to the ohio death penalty headline about the mall shooting two days ago in which a 22 year old male went into a mall with body armor, a hockey mask and a rifle and just started shooting random people. I’m sure you’ve seen it.
Anyway, being in law enforcement, I am witness to a very different culture of young white male adults than say, twenty years ago. Disillusioned, angry, lost, using a variety of substances (narcotic, pharmaceutical and this synthetic marijuana that is causing all kinds of strange behaviors). Not trying to stereotype a whole generation, but there is definitely something afoot.
And I hate to sound like an old fuddy duddy (only 43 remember…) but back in my early 20’s it was rare to hear of anyone other than gangbangers trying to solve problems with guns. I think about the evolution of video games that are so virtual, realistic, and with so many spending hours immersed in it. And it makes me wonder if somehow a boundary has been crossed between fantasy and reality. And to take it one step further to a conspiracy theory, what if there are subliminal messages embedded in those games?
This is more than poor parenting and lack of coping skills. And I do think you’re right about the channeling of the collective negative energy.
-
I agree with you on all points *lisa*…I think all your statements are very accurate.
Being in law enforcement you have a very unique perspective, one that most of the public is missing. Your voice is needed here in this forum, share what you know!
Societies and cultures are disintegrating…it is part of a global change of consciousness, a slow and painful process, and in this in-between transition period many get lost, especially the young, whose hopes have been crushed.
-
I do have a unique perspective. I don’t see this school shooting just from the perpective of the heartbreak of the families and the senselessness of it. But also from the perspective of this potentially happening in my community and responding to the scene while someone is shooting and killing children. I would be in the position to end it. To take his life. Not many people know what it feels like to run those scenarios through their mind all the time and try and maintain the sense of balance we talk about here.
It’s a weird feeling to be witness to in-between transition period, instead of involved in it. If that make sense.
-
I try to imagine your position, as law enforcement…when the outcome is that a life has to be taken, there is no winning for anyone (only perhaps the prevention of more deaths).
I believe these events reflect on all of us…we share a global consciousness. It is only at the consciousness level that humanity can be healed. We (all of humanity) need to understand the creative or destructive power of this global consciousness.
I think we are all involved in this transition but playing different roles…
-
No there isn’t. And I do believe that my level of awareness and trying to silently connect with people ‘soul to soul’, spirit to spirit, has kept from situations from taking a turn for the worst. So far so good.
Yes, that’s what I meant, different roles. There are those who are aware it is happening, like us and are sort of watching and participating at higher level. And those who know SOMETHING is happening, who are unsettled and are engaged at lower, more negative levels. And everything in between.
It’s quite a pickle we’re in at the moment.
-
I believe it is possible to do what you mention…diffuse a potentially explosive situation by connecting in a non-threatening way at the energy/consciousness/spirit level…I have done it with wild animals (mother bears with cubs and mountain lions) as well as with attacking dobermans on the loose…but not with humans yet.
I camp and hike in the wilderness purposely without any means of self defense, so that I must to rely on inner guidance and intuition, energy and consciousness.
I think it will all get a lot worse before it get better…what is manifested in the world is a direct and accurate reflection of what is going on in humanity’s global consciousness…a tearing down of everything, from the ground up, so that we can begin with a new foundation.
I have a feeling that the only thing we will have left to hang on to at some point will be our own individual soul…nothing else will stand and no one will feel safe.
It’s a tough lesson and a painful birth, but necessary…as all illusions must vanish if we are to grow up as a species.
-
Hi Neale,
I wish many more people in the world would have this debate about the death penalty! To me, it is so obviously wrong to take another life, end of story. You can quote the Bible if you like- “thou shalt not kill”, it says in there. To me, two wrongs can never make a right; this is something I have known from a very young age. If it is wrong for an individual to kill, then it is also wrong for the state to kill.I believe that one should never ask another to do something, unless one would be willing to undertake that responsibility oneself. I ask myself, “Could I live with myself if I was the person who threw the switch and electrocuted someone on death row, or who gave that lethal injection…” And if the answer is no, then I would not ask another to do it in my name, either. (Same goes for going to war, or even eating meat….)
I live in England and am a member of a group called ‘Human Writes’; we connect with death-row inmates through pen-friendship. I am currently writing to a chap in Florida’s row. Here’s the thing, though, Neale, which I don’t think anyone else has raised yet in this debate: my friend is totally innocent of the crime with which he is charged. Yes, he was a ‘career criminal’ some years ago, but a killer he is definitely not. You see, the death penalty is wrong for all the obvious reasons, but especially so because innocent people do find themselves on death row. If anyone wants to seriously look into this and do the research- I believe the Death Penalty Information Centre is a good place to start online- they will eventually find that it is widely acknowledged that about 5% of all inmates on death rows across USA are factually innocent. The way I see it, whether or not the death penalty is a deterrent to murder- and it probably isn’t, since most people who kill, most likely do so in the heat of the moment- we have to protect the innocent men and women who would otherwise be killed by the state. There have been well-publicised cases of innocent people going free from death row; there are probably as many innocents who have been murdered by the state.
Some states also execute mentally-ill inmates, who would perhaps in my country spend their lives being treated in a secure psychiatric unit. Some states execute people who committed their crimes when they were only in their early teens, barely children. And that’s before we get into the arguments over whether a genuinely guilty person deserves to die, or not.
I would urge as many people as possible to look closely at this death penalty system; look at the innocent people on the row; look at the mentally ill people on the row; look at yourdelves- could you be the one who kills that prisoner, no matter what they have done? Could you live with being a killer, too- even though you had killed in the name of the state or justice? Get in touch with an abolitionist group, find out the true facts. No, the death penalty is wrong, wrong, wrong, in my opinion. Two wrongs can nevr make a right. Even my 11yr-old daughter understands that.
Peace, always,
Doug.
-
Well I have read all of the above stores on the death penalty. I feel that I can’t compete with the knowledge that has been shared. But I have read and I can’t prove what I am about to say, sense I have read it in a book, that there are no victims or villains. Yes I know that sounds crazy, but the people that have been doing past life progression therapy have taken people back into pass lives,and they have reported that we do create the drama if you will in our lives. I know this sounds wrong. But I have read this from more then one source. They say that no man can take your life from you with out your consent, or that is in your program or when you have finish what you came here to lean. The point being that if that is true and I believe that it is, all that is going on has a bigger picture then meets the eye. Like I said earlier I can’t prove any of this. I can’t even prove that God or anything that we can’t touch feel smell etc is real. well I guess until I here from you that is all. Thank you.
Leave a Reply