Everybody is innocent. Everybody.

Among the most controversial statements in the Conversations with God books is the pronouncement Nobody does anything inappropriate, given their model of the world. The statement ranks right up there with other CWG messages such as “There is no such thing as Right and Wrong,” and…”There are no Victims and no Villains,” and….”Everything is perfect” in its unbelievability.

CWG is spiritually revolutionary, there is no question about that. Its statements challenge everything we have been taught and told since we were six years old. How can we hold these ideas within our operating guidelines and still function in our present-day world? That becomes the question for the day.

The statement says, essentially, that everybody is innocent. And it is true. Everybody is. People are just as innocent at 40 as they are at 4; at 30 as they are at 3; at 60 as they are at 6. We are all little children — and we are acting as little children, in case you haven’t noticed.

And, as little children (on the Timeline of the Universe) we can’t be expected to know all that we need to know to make decisions that are in our own best interest. We can’t even convince ourselves to stop smoking, for heaven sake, even when we know it is killing us. We can’t even convince ourselves to stop eating food that is not good for us, even though we know it is killing us. We can’t even stop ourselves from arguing with each other “to the death”…even though we know it is going to kill us.

What is the problem here? Is it that we are just plain stupid? Or unbelievably stubborn? Or astonishingly barbaric? Or is it that we just don’t understand something very important — the understanding of which would change everything?

I am going to suggest that it is the latter. I am going to suggest, as Conversations with God tells us, that we simply don’t know Who We Are. We are living a case of Mistaken Identity. And we don’t know what the purpose of Life is. Nor do we understand how it functions. We have no idea of our true relationship with each other, and with all of Life. And we certainly have no idea of who and what God is…and what God wants.

Our model of the world is extremely elementary. It is very, very incomplete. And, according to our model of the world, everyone IS acting appropriately. Or at least, certainly we are…

We are caught up in living into Fallacies about Life and about God, and these mistaken notions are what’s killing us. We think that we are being terrorized by others, and we are not. We are being terrorized by our own thoughts and our own ideas and our own beliefs about everything from where we are to why we are here to how we got here to what happens to us when we leave.

All of it. We hold terrifying ideas about all of it. No wonder we are living terrifying lives.

We will discuss, in this space, in the days ahead, what Conversations with God has to tell us about these things. And then we’ll invite all of you to do something with, and about, that.

Stay tuned.

Comments

31 responses to “Everybody is innocent. Everybody.

  1. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    I tried asking Lisa to create a new opinion thread on this, but their policy is that a person’s real name, in full, is included at the top of the page in this very public, uncontrolled environment.

    Fortunately this new thread covers this subject and the conversation between Marko and I can continue seamlessly.

    It has come to my attention that negativity, like everything else, is an illusion. It doesn’t exist. There is no such thing as negative thought, or negative feeling, just as there are no positive thoughts or feelings like right and wrong. I’m making it all up in our head, as are you.

    Forever.

    What we have are judgements. But what are judgements? Have we been too judgemental about the idea of being too judgemental? There’s a catchphrase if I ever heard one.

    To judge is to form an opinion. Nothing more or less. Look it up in any dictionary. It means to decide: good or bad, positive or negative, working or not working, yes or no.

    This will apply forever in the moment of now. Always has and always will. It is how we form our perceptions. It is the foundation of our beliefs. It is the core of our being: FREE WILL.

    We know that we can and will do lots of things that are not in concert with our heart or soul intention. In fact we do lots of things we don’t want to because they are part of our biological requirements. I mean, who really loves unblocking a toilet after it’s been used, right?

    I think most people would consider that undesirable, yet to a special breed of people, that’s the crown jewels. They live for that. This is what it means to change your perception.

    So I put out this challenge to everyone here. Create in your mind the most negative human experience, first or third person, and I will participate in helping to prove it is not intrinsically, fundamentally negative in any way, and that it could be positive in the right light.

    The idea that negativity is a motivator for positive change is flawed. It ^can^ be a motivator for change, or you can change you mind about the negativity, form a different opinion of events and circumstances, and change nothing else.

    HEB societies have been cited as not experiencing negativity, and yet they have negativity within their contextual awareness. I believe this is what God was trying to tell Neale in CwG Book 3: They do have an experience contrast, including negativity, yet they are aware enough to know they can choose differently at any time, so experiencing that side of contrast becomes desirable and the way we think of negativity loses its power with them. For example antagonism is used to bring life to discussion.

    I’ve had my share of antagonizing almost everyone here. Now it’s your turn. No holding back one inch. Gimme your best shot. I dare you. I invite intelligent, logical attack on my theory (not on me personally) any which way you like it. Bring it on!!

  2. Steve Bolas Avatar
    Steve Bolas

    To truely experience innocence one must have had the experience of guilt . . . and so the physicality plays out.

    Buzz – that’s a tough one. Maybe having a long line of experiences demonstrating that society does not serve a meaningful purpose, leading to a life of crime that finally ends up with the individual being convicted of a serial killing and on death row . . . then at some point prior to the sentence being carried out, coming to the full realisation of harm and misery and utter upheaval that you have caused others.

    Steve (Gold Coast – Australia)

  3. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Plz guys, use some imagination. This one’s easy.

    At the top of the thread it says there are no villians or victims. Crime is impossible with this level of awareness, as are involuntary harm and misery being experienced by anyone affected by his actions.

  4. Laura Pringle Avatar
    Laura Pringle

    Buzz, I know this is unrelated, but can you please provide your birth information so I can study your astrology chart? Date, exact time, city. I’d reeeealy appreciate it!:)

    Sorry to be boring, but I agree with your statements that any “negative” experience can be shuffled around in a different light and be made “un”-negative. I wrote about that a bit in my book of poems, Meanderings of a Wayward Spirit., specifically, poem #28.

    Perhaps its the way we look at a thing-
    if you turned it around and shook everything,
    a saint could be an invader, and we’d curse the sweet crusader.
    The death of someone near, a cause for us to cheer.
    Releasing all our need for labels, we could rotate all the tables.
    And then we’d at last be free, from our prison here, in 3D.

    My theory has been tested many times in the last few yrs. Example: Last year, my teenaged son died in a car crash, mutilated so horribly we couldn’t even kiss his body goodbye. I miss him terribly, but am not shattered.

  5. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Hello Laura,
    I’m sorry I can’t help with that. I don’t know the answers.

  6. Erin/IAm Avatar
    Erin/IAm

    Buzz…Gotta love the boat rockers…they keep the crew awake!:)

    Neale…No, we are not as little children…That is the blocker. We imagine ‘adult’ to be as know-it-alls who direct children to be other than what they are, rather than Seeing them as reminders of Who We Are.

    I was told a story once…A journalist visiting an Aboriginal community was playing a game with the kids. He set a basket of fruit at the base of a tree & told a group of children, “First one to the tree gets the treats!”

    The whole group grasped hands & ran for the tree together…All sat & shared the fruits. When the journalist asked, why they had done this as such, one simply said, “When we all win, we all win!”

    Out of the mouths of Babes!:)

  7. sunseed Avatar
    sunseed

    u bet I will stay tuned, neale…

    juicy stuff, (ala lilou:)…

    in 1997, shortly after the catharsis of my father’s death, I first read similar words as some in paragraph one here: no victims no villains, no right or wrong etc. I was taken aback to say the least. I think the first to ‘strike’ me were, “hitler went to heaven”…
    WOAH, thought I, did I just read ‘hitler went to heaven’?, but thankfully I did not set the book down & walk away…for long, anyway…those words, adrenaline flow & all, caused pause for reflection for sure, but curiosity almost always wins with me & thankfully always has, even & maybe especially when my current beliefs are challenged 😉

    I was ready for the truth of my very soul to begin to settle into my conscious world as I too had asked for repeatedly, often thru desperation…it has taken these 15 years to absorb the words into my life ‘on purpose’ & begin to live by, be them in more tangible ways, & gradually over those 15 years much has come to rest within my conscious remembrance, in perfect timing 😀

    I say on purpose because I can now clearly see that ‘each’ happening in my life, from pre-birth until now not just over the past 15 years, has had a specific purpose for my experiencing, & that I brought the experiences to self all by my own choosing, but that until 1997, I wasn’t so conscious of the process…

    it has led me to this place of now where I am ready to help pull humanity up by its boot-straps in any way I can…I am following, within the flow, where my heart guides me to go, the best I can…I am able to enJOY the process of now much of the time (tho I still get forgetful;), & the joy gets deeper & deeper w each moment.

    it pleases me to no end to see so many enJOYing the same process consciously, now…

    may our wakefulness help connect, in a strong, powerful ways (& hopefully more expediently than 15 years) our beloved brothers & sisters to their divinity within so that they may know peace among the chaos as I often do…that we may end needless suffering & recognize & live in harmony within & among ourselves…

  8. sunseed Avatar
    sunseed

    lol w buzz, the self-named antagonistic one 😀

    within the model u describe, buzz…a model with which I largely agree…u say that antagonism is used to bring life to discussion. I agree w that too, & of course conversely, it can also shut down a discussion for some…

    I have (remembered) an awesome ability to consciously connect & even in some cases harmonize w many views within any subject…for instance, I adore lively conversations, tho not always an antagonistic approach…& today I may b up for engaging antagonism, but tomorrow I may not….or in 10 minutes…3

    so then I can choose to B somewhere else if I feel aversion, right…w/out any disdain towards buzz whatsoever…life is grand

  9. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    Negativity is not necessarily bad, we love it! That’s why we have it. CwG I believe it’s book 1, says we love it all the good, bad & the ugly.

    As we evolve, I believe we out grow it at some point & love deeper, love something else as well like living in non negativity like HEB’s. It’s called evolving.

    “The idea that negativity is a motivator for positive change is flawed. It ^can^ be a motivator for change, or you can change you mind about the negativity, form a different opinion of events and circumstances, and change nothing else.” Then isn’t that opinion event change positive?

    I wouldn’t use the word flawed, if negativity is a motivator for positive change that’s good.
    The fact that even within negativity, gifts of positivity can be seen & experienced, to me shows that underneath it all, it’s really all good. That’s from the larger perspective.

    Buzz said “I’ve had my share of antagonizing almost everyone here.”

    I’m not sure I feel this is true for me. You at least were honest & open about it. Transparent about what you were trying to do. You were upfront & real about your agenda.

    I think you can create good discussions & do that without antagonism. But that’s just me. I’ve been on Neale’s sites & organizations commenting for maybe 7 years maybe even 10 & antagonism is not needed to stimulate good spirited discussions.

    I’ve seen some really angry livid people come on Neale’s sites & they really didn’t bother me either except perhaps when they refused to actually see the love & openness given to them & usually they just left. I guess that just made me a bit sad. By the way these people are very very rare.

    If they do stay, the sheer love & compassion showed to them forces them to soften a bit to see an alternative to what they are experiencing & they either move into it in deep appreciation or just leave.

    I appreciate you Buzz, I really do, but you’re really a soft baked potato to what I’ve confronted in the past.

    Please carry on. 🙂

    Magically,
    -Marko

    Laura I’m very to hear about your sons tragic death & hope you truly found peace around it.

  10. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Hello Marko,
    Thank you for understanding my agenda. I have tried to use dictionary definitions to prove antagonism is essential to a passionate, spirited discussion. Written violence is a whole other thing that goes way beyond anger and fear. that’s an expresion of hate, and even when Hollywood acting cast pretend hate scenes, the real person performing the scene is affected emotionally. It’s very powerful stuff.

    Flawed isn’t the perfect word, granted, but upon further reflection I can’t think of a closer synonym. The clarification lies in replacing “is”, as in “always is, equals, rule, law”, with “can.”

    Within our experience of events, our mind automatically declares them desirable or undesirable. This is done subconsiously, and can’t be prevented. Only after an opjnion is formed can I decide if it serves my agenda, and decide differently. From this point on, no earlier, a neutral, impartial, indifferent opinion is possible. It is our ability for self-reflection, an aspect of our status as intelligent life forms called self-awareness, that makes this possible and gives us the ability to change perspectives of events without any additional stimuli.

    So: during an event, it’s good or bad. This is an instinctive reflex response
    After the event, you choose again, and it can be good, bad, both, neither, or otherwise.
    Truth: all events are neutral, and can be made positive with perspective, even negativity, even raw hate.

  11. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    RE: HEBs.
    If the spectrum of experience was transposed from what we have to varying degrees of happiness, joy, bliss, then those HEBs would be judging that mild happiness is undesirable, thereby falling within the definition of negative.

    Negativity can’t ever be eliminated, but we can learn to love feelings of negativity as states of emotional contrast. Not because they need healing, but because they want that experience felt directly in order to more deeply appreciate it’s opposite, the positive antonymous feeling. There may even be extreme contrast tourism trips taken to places like Earth for fun.

  12. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    Thanks Buzz. I can’t say I agree with your logic. But I’m certainly okay with it.

    Negativity can be known without being experienced.

    You said “If the spectrum of experience was transposed from what we have to varying degrees of happiness, joy, bliss, then those HEBs would be judging that mild happiness is undesirable, thereby falling within the definition of negative.”

    Again I disagree. (Remember we can agree to disagree without the need to be right.) I can feel a great sense of happiness & a mild sense of happiness which is still happiness with less intensity & the volume turned down. That’s not negative in my book. 72 degrees feels pretty good to me. 80 degrees does too. If I’m dressed properly 45 & sunny feels good to me.

    You are really getting picky & detailed in some of your points & I don’t mind that a bit, it’s good in my book. We just see from different perspectives. Good job though, yea it’s fun.

    Magically,
    -Marko

  13. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Yes Marko,
    I agree we can agree to disagree, but I don’t believe that is necessary or important. Do you?

    Yes, ” Negativity can be known without being experienced.” In a world with so much negativity, we need only observe events occuring, judge them as negative, mentally relate it to an experienced negative experience, and our curiosity is satisfied. Unless we’ve forgotten our last negative experience, or this event brings out higher than normal curiosities. Then we are compelled to go deeper into the experience.

    Why do pedestrians always watch an emergency vehicle? It ain’t the siren & lights. Why do drivers slow to a crawl for an accident scene? Iit ain’t for hazard safety reasons. Who watched the news for hours after 9/11? It ain’t coz we were scared we’ll be attacked next. We are a curious species.

    Howver, if this level of drama was not available, and hadn’t been available your whole life, you would be different, but you’d still be curious, and you’d seek drama simply because it’s different, and can’t be found in states of bliss, and others would judge you as negative. Contagious, isn’t it. See now the one judging you is being dramatic too, by calling you negative, and this interaction gains attention from more, because it’s different. Differences in opinion arise, and we have a riot. At what you have called 45 degrees and sunny. Aren’t riots fun? What about war?

  14. Laura Pringle Avatar
    Laura Pringle

    Interesting how “Buzz” blew off my question about his birth info, and assumed I was asking questions about finding peace or something. I didn’t ask for answers about a dilemma, I was demonstrating that I had found peace in the wake of my son’s death. I Just like to look at the birth charts of people with strong personalities to see the parallels in planetary placements, it helps me learn.

  15. Lisa Avatar
    Lisa

    Through my own life experiences I’ve come to understand that just as I function as mind and soul (and have learned how to balance the two), society operates dually the same way. Although unbalanced. The mind of society, the laws, values, taboos, are out of sync with what we collectively know in our hearts as there being something more “out there”. We aren’t taught that out there is really on the inside.

    So, here on planet Earth, we have created systems where things are judged right and wrong, victim and villian, for the purposes of controlling the masses and to keep people from harming each other or themselves.

    This system is clearly no longer working properly. The majority of humans are becoming more violent, more depressed, more lost, more dis”illusion”ed about their place and their purpose. More people are killing themselves. I responded to a suicide this weekend. The first line of the note left behind was “I’m taking myself away.” But who opted out? His mind or his soul? And as the family, traumatized by their suddenly changed lives, expressed the “wrongness”, I couldn’t help but think, “is it?”.

    Neale’s quote “We are caught up in living into Fallacies about Life and about God, and these mistaken notions are what’s killing us. We think that we are being terrorized by others, and we are not. We are being terrorized by our own thoughts and our own ideas and our own beliefs about everything”…

    So true.

  16. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    Buzz says: “Why do pedestrians always watch an emergency vehicle? It ain’t the siren & lights. Why do drivers slow to a crawl for an accident scene? Iit ain’t for hazard safety reasons. Who watched the news for hours after 9/11? It ain’t coz we were scared we’ll be attacked next. We are a curious species.”

    I think this is too general of a statement. People are cautious around an accident, because there may be a danger that they can avoid, also people care to help someone in peril as well. When there’s an accident there’s a crowd of sorts at times, not always, but that is a small percent of the people.

    Buzz continues:

    “Howver, if this level of drama was not available, and hadn’t been available your whole life, you would be different, but you’d still be curious, and you’d seek drama simply because it’s different, and can’t be found in states of bliss, and others would judge you as negative.”

    I’m not saying drama is bad. I’m saying we outgrow it just like certain toys. I’m also saying we can create good drama to keep interesting. I do think curiosity is built into our system. What we are curious about is life. When we see life the universe and everything in it, we are also looking at ourselves. We are the Universe.

    If we want a certain amount of say, low level negativity with no extremes we are at choice to do that. If that’s what it currently takes to keep it interesting, so be it. It’s our choice. Including not to have any.

    Of course at the moment, we are a long way from fully creating that choice. Especially when most don’t even think they have that choice. Though as individuals, we can get a head start & be an example for the collective if we so desire & choose.

    You said in your opening that “.. we can agree to disagree, but I don’t believe that is necessary or important. Do you?”

    It’s not important to agree? or not important to disagree? I think it’s important to be able to disagree um agreeably:-) without violence or hurt as a better or more beneficial alternative way of being & doing so.

    Optimal magical blessings,
    -Marko

  17. Inger Lise Avatar
    Inger Lise

    Marko, thank you very much(Buzz, Lisa, and all).

    Much wisdom to aquire all the way….There IS a way, and we`re living it right now in this very moment.

    As Neale have said over and over again(and many ancient “Masters” who have managed in to “overcome the world”….btw: The masters (still) are “here and there”): It Is The Change….We Are The Change, no matter of what it is.

    It is a Cosmic never-ending Creation to me(as of have learned to see it by the own experiences, that is).
    btw: Long ago the eldery brother of mine drinking himself to death(after the service in the army, and afterwards to be a sports-athletic). Even of him to have had the most favourable circumstances to live by.

    A cousin of mine took his own life as a youngster because of him was “a victim of” his class-mates “disapprovals.” (He was not among the sports-athletic, but “weak”).They crowded him, he fell outside of “the perfect community.”

    Later on both my late brother and the cousin appeard to me in dreams, telling me about the circumstances. I have absolutely no DOUBT whatsoever, of it is a continued existence.
    The brother of mine “showed up” one afternoon 25 years ago(after The passing over), as vivid as of him to still be alive, in his athletic thirthies, seriously telling me of TO WAKE UP. And thereafter to disappear “out of the door…..And me running after him of to see where he went…..but there was nobody in sight.

    I do believe of us to have EXPERIENCED the things by ourselves if to believe. And of it is a Time for everything.

  18. Erin/IAm Avatar
    Erin/IAm

    Okay, Buzz…so let’s talk about Birth…One of the most celebrated of events in humanity…The truest form of ‘innocence’ that we embrace…A New Babe.

    In ‘reality’, it is the most ‘negative’ experience of a pure energy being…to be attached to a body vehicle…to acquire the skills of navigating this ‘cage’ is Job One…to learn of it’s vulnerabilities & limitations is constant…to get the hang of the brain thing is frustrating, at best…then to ‘fit in’ with the environment one came into, total UGH!!!

    In contrast, ‘Death’, a mournful, sorrow-filled event to most, offers just the opposite…Freedom’s epitome, once again…free-winged & pure, once again…unattached to anything, yet part of Everything…HEB in finest form!

    We behold one aspect as Love & Life, yet the other as the inevitable Horror. One holds amazing experiences of emotion…the other knows only of simple logic. One is beheld as ‘sacred’, no matter if the body vehicle came off the line as a ‘lemon’, or stamped with ‘original sin’…the other brings all matter of judgement & confusion.

    Yet both, have created untold amounts of laws, businesses, sciences, & tales…such simplicities of beingness adulterated & misguided…A true Reality Show of ignorance & low-level thinking, indeed. Tho, we cordially ‘accept’ this as ‘so’, pay the exorbitant prices, & follow the rules, deemed unto either rite of passage, and we move on, either with a smile or a tear…or a combo of both.

    Perhaps an altered thought of these ‘events’ “Could change everything”???

    idk…What say you?:)

  19. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    Inger, fascinating share with your after life experience of your brother! Thanks.
    Magically,
    -Marko

    P.S. to Erin. I think we come into this world stamped with “Original Blessing”

    “Every morning when you wake uP the Angels hit the applause button.”

  20. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Wow,
    So many things to repond to here. Lovin it!

    Laura,
    Plz pay attention. As i said before, i do NOT know the details you are asking for. I’m not blowing you off. I am unable to answer. Well done finding peace.

    Lisa,
    My new favourite comment in this thread. Very well said. Thanks for sharing! So true!

    Erin,
    When you are tired, do you look forward to sleep? When you are well rested and have a fun day planned, do you look forward to being awake? Is one better than the other? Are either bad? I use this analogy to describe life and death. It doesn’t matter if you assign wakefulness to life or life after death. They are different, both good, both necessary, never sad.

    Great question!!

    Inger,
    I agree there are masters alive on Earth, but they are not who we think. Some of the people i consider masters have what other people consider morally questionable professions and/or behaviour. I think even the criteria for calling someone a master is changing.

    Thank you for sharing you’re stories. I don’t agree with you’re rationalization about what you saw or why you saw it, but i respect you’re right to believe your eyes.

    Heya Marko,
    I knew the bits about how they ain’t stopping for hazard safety reasons wouldnt be enough, but i needed you to bring it up. So lets hypothesize some drama: say I’m on a highway, stuck in traffic moving at walking pace. As i approach the accident site i see lots of emergency vehicles on the shoulder, so i know there is nothing any citizen can do to help. There are traffic cones all around the site, but only the far shoulder lane is blocked. All 4 others are clear, and were never obstructed, yet all cars in all lanes are still doing walking or jogging pace till just before the site. As soon as cars have moved beyond easy visibility of the crash, like a few feet before the site is no longer easy to see, all cars accelerate to the speed limit, congestion disappears.

    Why did i look? Why do kids pause their games and crowd to one side of the car to see? It is human nature. If a jounalist reporter set up cameras at the site looking back at passing cars, I’d bet money nearly every human tries to get a look, or at least a glance, and the more horrific the accident the higher my betting percetage. If someone on the radio says there’s been an explosion, or fatality, or both, or several, the percentage reaches near 100%. With all those emergency services we know we’re not in threat, or that speed will cause any further damage, or that we can help in any way.

    Yes it is important to be able to agree to disagree, but that wasn’t the question. Do you think amicability and tact and civility are more important than continuing to discuss a subject all parties consider important, even after someone starts showing signs of discomfort, or after you become uncomfortable. Is it ever worth a little discomfort to teach someone something, or to learn something new?

    I’m not talking about violence or rage or potential injury or tolerating the fear of these potential outcomes in a rapidly escalating emotional argument. For example, in this environment i can say anything because if a person gets emotional it would be near impossible for any harm to come to me. I can speak freely. Same as when in discussion with people i trust implicitly.

    “… We can create good drama …”. You’re still thinking that some things are good or bad. So i return your atttention to the challenge i made at the top. Think of a negative drama and I’ll first neutralize it as not fundamentally negative, then try to see the positive. All drama is good drama.

    Some people, like myself, are more curious than others, and this gets us in trouble with the law trying to tell us what not to do. We can’t turn off our curiosity any more than we can stop forming opinions or beating our hearts. Fortunately i don’t yet have a record, but i will one day, almost certainly. We seek ever more increasingly extreme forms of drama, interspersed with times of peace, calm, bliss, joy, etc, because doing again what’s already been done too many times is menial, dull, boring. We are alive to have experiences, to know ourselves as God.

  21. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    “Is it ever worth a little discomfort to teach someone something, or to learn something new? ”

    Not if it’s forced on them without their consent or willingness. If they ask for your opinion yes, sure.

    It’s “How” you approach the subject, the energy behind it that makes the difference. Some people are so sensitive (or dysfunctional, mentally ill) as too make it near impossible to have them hear you with out being negatively emotionally effected.

    That would mean they aren’t ready. But your gentle loving questioning & unhurried prodding often could eventually open their hearts & minds to hearing more. It’s a judgment call on your own sensitivity as to how far to pursue it,– & the rule of thumb is, let wisdom & intuition guide you.

    Now there is no reason to pursue a dialog or conversation when you see that it’s doing more harm than good & the person just isn’t ready or prepared. The exception may be in an emergency or life threatening situation.

    “… We can create good drama …”. You’re still thinking that some things are good or bad. So i return your atttention to the challenge i made at the top. Think of a negative drama and I’ll first neutralize it as not fundamentally negative, then try to see the positive. All drama is good drama.”

    Not quite Buzz. We are at choice as to what we desire to create. We use our intuition, feelings, wisdom & yes judgment to determine if we subjectively interpret something as good or bad. It’s a choice & a value judgment we make.

    “All drama is good drama.” Well yes you can interpret it that way. Yes & it can be an advanced way to see life. It goes along with my guest article on Negative thoughts helping directing & course correcting us to what we desire more of by their energy contrasts.

    All things good & bad work & play ultimately in our favor. Not everyone is ready or wants to hear that, but those who do, have the privilege of experiencing life from that point of perspective… and, can influence others who eventually see & feel that as a more desirable way to pursue life.

    So we could say there are certain things that we desire more than others. Degrees & preferences that we choose.

    As far as things being neutral. Well if that works & plays for you to see it that way & gives you joy & helps you spiritually grow, go for it.

    I would add that I do believe that the basic core God energy of life is in fact neutral. Just like electricity is. It’s how we use the God energy & electricity for what we prefer, desire & yes subjectively judge as a better experience compared to our likes & dislikes.

    “We seek ever more increasingly extreme forms of drama, interspersed with times of peace, calm, bliss, joy, etc, because doing again what’s already been done too many times is menial, dull, boring. We are alive to have experiences, to know ourselves as God.”

    Well some extremes are very welcomed & others aren’t. I have no problem with that.

    Yet varying degrees of fun or excitement are fine too. I don’t need to be blissed out all the time, nor do I have to be super excited about stuff, I don’t even mind boredom, as it’s peaceful. Boredom can have it’s extremes & degrees of good and bad depending on how we judge them given our life experiences & current perspectives.

    I think the idea of boredom as it pertains to this discussion is born more out of fear than the antisipation & excitement of things to come. But that’s just me. 🙂

    So does that cover your questions?

    Optimum magical blessings,
    -Marko

  22. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Forgive me for probing, but exactly which kinds of drama do you find in your rare, occasional experience that are unwelcome, extreme or otherwise?

    As for the first question of mine you addressed, ” Is it ever worth a little discomfort to teach someone something, or to learn something new? ”, I did not intend for it to mean an expression of interest in your morality projected on others. I was looking for personal experience, so I’ll reprase:

    Within your past conversational history with emotionally passionate people, and on a subject that makes them more intensely interactive, do you find yourself choosing to tolerate discomfort in order to teach something to another, or learn something from another, or do you more often yield to pressure?

    Or would you claim that if you are uncomfortable the other must by default be uncomfortable, and because it’s unfair to force it further you’d rather yield for their sake? Would you believe it’s doing more harm than good, even if the other pleads to continue?

    “We are at choice as to what we desire to create.” Not entirely. Events and circumstances are created within the cocreative process, which every atom of the universe is contributing to. We can and are constantly influencing outcomes, all by choice, conscious or subconscious. However we are not autonomous in reality. We are, however, automonous in how we choose to perceive, and it’s much faster and easier to change perceptions than to alter events.

    The rest I agree with, but I’m keen to read other opinions

  23. starsister Avatar
    starsister

    I totally subscribe to this and get behind it. Of course it makes me angry that one ideology can fear loss of power so much that they feel the need to “flatten” other humans in their own occupied territory. But zooming way out, I can see that the madness is playing out on a stage just so that we can recognize it for the insanity it presents and therefore evolve.

    Peace is of course the goal, and the shift is happening and suddenly all types of wrongdoing seem to be coming into the light. The world (on twitter at least) is totally intolerant of these agressive actions and the “hacktivist” group Anonymous has attempted to disarm it by peaceful yet provocative means. That too is fine, and an example of david v goliath playing out in a necessary way so that the “99%” can take their rightful power back.

    But in the great schema, the only real path to evolution is to shine light on light. Giving energy or airtime to these “games” holds back our personal capacity to hold light and love in our daily lives.

    That is the ultimate goal, for me at least, because in lifting myself up in this way, I play a conscious part in lifting humanity up.

  24. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    “Within your past conversational history with emotionally passionate people, and on a subject that makes them more intensely interactive, do you find yourself choosing to tolerate discomfort in order to teach something to another, or learn something from another, or do you more often yield to pressure?”

    Oh, that all depends on my mood, my energy level & my interest in how valuable the interaction is.

    Intelligent parties of certain spiritual & psychological awareness allow discomfort as part of their personal growth expansion & do so with the permission of the other. As in “This conversation may get a little touchy & uncomfortable, is it okay with you if we proceed with that in mind?”

    The very idea that you acknowledge their possible hurt and ask for permission in a gentle way curries your favor with them & opens their vulnerable heart. It takes a wise & sensitive soul to work with people in such a way. People who are more blunt may simply turn others off, & usually do except for a few who don’t mind bluntness in others.

    I personally don’t mind blunt people who simply want to move the discussion faster & dispense with the superficial pleasantries & politeness. But it’s usually understood that there is an already established good rapport with each other & thus one cultural wall can be left out as a result.

    If they are arrogant & mean spirited I may shine my light for awhile & if they keep the same negative energy going, I simply leave.

    I’m hear to heal & contribute, not to listen to people who rigidly hold to their own views only with out acknowledging another.

    I like to heed what Neale has often said in discussions. “Speak your truth, but sooth your words with peace.” It’s his version of the old proverbs statement from the Bible “A soft answer turneth away wrath.”

    I don’t mind being uncomfortable in certain situations. I often advise people to be okay not being okay. In being & doing so, you ironically end up, being okay.

    You continue “Or would you claim that if you are uncomfortable the other must by default be uncomfortable, [No, I usually don’t project like that. I do suspend my judgement on them & or simply ask if they feel uncomfortable] and because it’s unfair to force it further you’d rather yield for their sake? Would you believe it’s doing more harm than good, even if the other pleads to continue?”

    Oh I yield for their sake if they don’t want to continue. If they or the other pleads to continue of course it’s an invitation to keep going.

    You conclude Buzz with “However we are not autonomous in reality. We are, however, automonous in how we choose to perceive, and it’s much faster and easier to change perceptions than to alter events.”

    Ya,… works for me, that’s good I like that. We are all connected into the webstream of life.

    We are co-creators. However, what goes on within our own interior is mostly our creation. It’s effected by the collective, but we have the most power & influence within our own personal reality to create the most desired change.

    Magical platinum blessings,
    -Marko

  25. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    I think I may know what you mean by personal reality, but I’m compelled to ask.

    I have the most influence over my reality when choosing whhat to eat for lunch, or which piece of new furniture to buy.

    I have less influence over which salesperson I talk to.

    I have even less influence over which news presenter speaks on the tv in store.

    Further less influence over what the local or national reporter reports on.

    Less influence over what the international reporter reports on, or what they do off camera, or what that person chooses to have for lunch.

    Is this sorta what you meant?

    How much effort do you put into being gentle in order to curry favour? Do you have an aversion to the wrath of others, that you would use soft answers to coddle your audience? Do you think questions like this are definitively mean spirited? How do you determine mean spiritedness?

    Impossibly,
    Buzz

  26. Inger Lise Avatar
    Inger Lise

    Marko, thank you, all of what you tells “resonates” with the understanding of my own. But sometimes am “to forget” how to react properly in certain conditions. It is as if to become Tired of The Masks all of us wearing in the daily life. But it is okay as well, am working on The Mood(s).

    Buzz, you are far over the intellect of mine. And do you know what?
    It is just one example of to have been borned with an innate humour, as I am always laughing in the wrong places(I am working on it). Several times have experienced of beginning to laugh out loud when, to me, the things beginning of to look ridiculous(for me that is). The more “qrazy” it is felt, the more am laughing…That`s one of the main problems for me, because it can be hurtful to others, if they are not able of to “tune” unto the same frequency.
    According to many is to cry and to laugh the very same “Thing.” I do not agree in it. T o Laugh by heart IS to heal. Not laughing OF another, but to laugh With each others.

    Edgar Cayce once have had a reading which is telling:”Develop the ability to see the ridiculous, and laugh often.” Well, I do not need of “to develop” the ability to laugh, because it is an innate “urge” to do….And it comes spontaneously.

  27. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    “Is this sorta what you meant?”

    I meant that the spirituality, the mentality that we carry with is, you know our thinking, feeling beingness determines & influences us on how we experienced the world. Like when you said “We are, however, automonous in how we choose to perceive, and it’s much faster and easier to change perceptions than to alter events.”

    We can’t change events once they happen (not yet anyway!) but how we respond, we are always at choice. Though for many it’s unconsciously automatic & that’s just part of conditioning, education & current evolutionary status.

    “How much effort do you put into being gentle in order to curry favour? Do you have an aversion to the wrath of others, that you would use soft answers to coddle your audience?”

    Well everything has consequences. So people often respond to the dominant energy you exhibit. Do I have on aversion to the wrath of others? I almost never experience life in that way but I’m not afraid to engage people in heated discussions. If they are however, say disrespectful, or over emotional to the point where I can’t reason with them, it’s a waste of my time & I simply, choose what battles to engage in.

    Yes I don’t mind coddling people in a gentle way. People have been patient with me so I often am with others. However, it will usually become obvious if they are avoiding something or not moving forward & depending on what that is I may simply point that out. Occasionally you have to be more aggressive to wake someone up, but I find this very very rare. It’s not my job to wake up others who don’t want it, are not ready or even care. I do enjoy playing and engaging with those who do, or at the very least, are a little open & curious. Let each walk their own path.

    “Do you think questions like this are definitively mean spirited?” No I don’t.
    How do you determine mean spiritedness?”

    Mean spiritedness to me is a sign of hurt & so I at least understand where they are coming from. Even then, most will soften if you refuse to match their level of vibration & keep your peace and love as your exporting energy. They often come from reaction instead of responding. Determination is done by my current mood & how I’m feeling at any given moment. It’s a purely subjective but also based on wisdom & compassion.

    I do think there are times when people need a good shaking uP to save them from their comatose lobotomized sleep induced stupor, especially if their lives are in danger otherwise. Yet that’s why we have professionals in the social work field & others more prepared to handle people who have strong addictions that are harmful do their lives.

    But in a general discussion that are just an exchange of ideas, as I said b4, I simply choose what battles are worth putting energy in. I try not to take most things too seriously. It’s as simple & subjective as that.

    Inger, I do get what you mean by wearing all the tiring social masks.

    I wear the artsy fartsy new age liberal mask, & it suits me. I’m more than that of course, but I don’t mind the masks, especially if it’s self chosen. I certainly have my conservative side & roots but my mask I wear is purposeful, enjoyable & part of this current journey I’m on, which yes, includes a good bit of humor as well.

    Magically,
    -Marko

  28. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    Sorry Marko. I do not understand the first answer:
    ” I meant that the spirituality, the mentality that we carry with is, you know our thinking, feeling beingness determines & influences us on how we experienced the world. ”

    What does this mean? Can you rephrase and/or elaborate? How does it relate to your quote of my past comment?

    I would also appreciate additional detail on your methods and criteria for determining meanness. Your response so far indicates the decision is largely emotional, and I believe I may know what many of those feelings are, but I’d rather read it in your words, not mine.

  29. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    That while our interior world is of our own creation, it still influences the outer world & draws to us the perfect events to further explore our present awareness. Events outside of, or further away from our personal experience space is less in our influence control.

    Our beingness, our spirit, temperament, our vibrational energy draws and pulls forth the experiences we have & are further influenced by how we handle what appear to be unexpected undesired events.

    That would include drawing in mean spirited people. Which I almost never do.

    Earlier when I talked about my mood, I meant if I’m tired, had a long day, I’m hungry, I’m not going to engage in the same way then when those parts of me are taken care of.

    “I would also appreciate additional detail on your methods and criteria for determining meanness. ”

    You know, I’m not sure I really have a criteria for determining peoples mean spiritedness. It happens so rare I can’t even give an example right off the top of my head.

    I know it exists of course, experienced it in the past. People complain to me about them at times.

    However, I think they hang on to enabling personalities & I’m not good at giving them that, so they leave me alone. Unless, perhaps, they are willing, on some level, to break out of that & that’s why they are in my experience to change that.

    A persons mean spiritedness is not necessarily an issue in my current experience but if someone is annoying, argumentative & only one sided I would not think it useful to waste my time with them.

    Magical Thanksgivings,
    -Marko

  30. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    We have soome options now, and should make a choice. Would you rather continue our discussion here, continue in the new CwG thread, or wind this subject up and put it on hold for another time?

  31. Marko Avatar
    Marko

    Good call Buzz. I agree. We’ve covered some good ground here. Had fun playing in the intellectual & spiritual adult playground.

    It’s time for a recess & we can continue another time on another topic or continue on this topic where appropriate.

    Miles of magical smiles,
    -Marko

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