Worldwide Discussion:

On Monday, June 23, 2014 Mormon judges excommunicated women’s ordination activist Kate Kelly,” a story posted on the Internet by said.

In the ThinkProgress story, a statement released by Kelly’s group, Ordain Women, is quoted as saying that “judges within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) sent Kelly an email yesterday informing her that she has been ‘excommunicated for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the LDS Church’.”

Kelly, the ThinkProgress story said, “is reportedly no longer allowed to ‘take the sacrament, hold a Church calling, give a talk in Church, offer a public prayer in behalf of the class or congregation in a Church meeting, or vote in the sustaining of Church officers’.”

The international human rights lawyer said she was crying and sobbing so much that she “couldn’t really read all the words” of her excommunication notice. Kelly later told NBC News: “I guess I’m a delusional optimist, because to the end I thought they would do the right thing.”

Kelly is reported to have “gathered women by the hundreds to march up to the doors of a meeting of the all-male priesthood and demand entry (they were denied). Still, when her efforts were combined with what appeared to be concessions on the part of the church — including finally allowing a women to lead a prayer at one of their conferences — some concluded that the church might be shifting its traditionally hardline stance against women in church leadership,” the ThinkProgress story went on.

The Mormon Church, of course, famously excluded black men from the priesthood throughout its long history as well, until 1976, when its leader announced that he had received “a revelation” from God that black males were henceforth to be considered eligible for be priests.

No such revelation has been made by God regarding women, however, judging from the pronouncements of Mormon Church leaders on this subject.

Mormon church teaching states that men and women have been assigned different, distinct but complementary roles in human life. Women are to support the men who are in power, because “the Lord has put it that way,” the church says.

So there you have it. God—who apparently has a penis—requires all of his priests in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and the Roman Catholic Church as well) to also have a penis. Priests, and even bishops, in the Episcopal Church may, however have vaginas (but only as of a few years ago, when God apparently changed His mind with regard to certain, but to all, of his Christian denominations.)

Female rabbis are allowed in the Jewish religion, and female ulamas are allowed in the Islamic tradition, and female ministers are allowed in most other Christian denominations, such as the Lutheran Church or the Presbyterian Church. The Baptist church is not too fond of the idea, and God appears to be very strict when it comes to both the Mormon and the Catholic Church.

So how does this work? Does God give different directions to different religious denominations? Or are some denominations violating the Law of God by allowing some of their leaders to have vaginas? Or is it the other way around? Are some denominations violating the Law of God by requiring all priests to have penises?

What do you think God wants with regard to all of this?

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  • Mariella Giura Longo

    God wants nothing and requires nothing….

    • That may be true about God, but not man.

      • Ingerlise

        Hmm, I have heard of us to be God in the making(including the aliens)…..ALL of us without any exception that is.

    • mewabe

      Except a vacation away from us…

  • God has no requirements, but where women are concerned, Mormons & Catholics have requirements for them. Both churches are unfathomably fantastically behind the times to say the least. Let them be. We will move on to other things. Both religions will eventually have the “women are now okay to be priests” revelations in the future. We hope!

    In the mean time, a majority of people find this very silly very unfortunate & woefully terribly archaic and head shakingly sad.

  • Gina

    The largest Presbyterian denomination, Presbyterian Church of USA (PCUSA) has decided to permit same-sex marriage. United States Presbyterian Church recently voted at the General Assembly held in Detroit, Michigan, according to the New York Times, which was quoted as saying the Constitution of the Church adopted laws allowing same sex marriages.
    The Presbyterian Church adopted the new definition of marriage as the union of two people.

    Slowly but surely things are changing. When life no longer functions in its present form, it adapts. The life of any religious body will have to adapt or die. That is, lose all members. Any political system will have to profoundly reform itself in order not to perish.

    • What happens to religion when the aliens land? 🙂

      • mewabe

        They will say that aliens come from hell (they are already saying it).

        • Right, so when society is ready like the student, the teachers or aliens will arrive. Not until then. At least publicly. Privately they are already here, for those ready & receptive.

          • mewabe

            I think I will come back as an alien…in 10 000 years 🙂
            Not to teach though, but more like a visit to the zoo.

      • Kristen

        There are many here Marko, two are dominant in this site. Just ask, most are open about it. Remember Contentttt from last year?? They are behind the New Age Movement, and so so so much more, especially peodophilia. Also a sign of a hybrid (half grey and half human from abducted human females stolen eggs) is a hatred of any form of body hair. Look at how they have changed society over the years, but TMI in this thread. They are hugely abundant, as most species cannot survive here as they are all the equivalent of HIV positive with no immunity at all to our germs. Another common, yet secretive sign, is when guys are obsessed with lactating females. This is not a sexual fetish – they just pretend it is, they are doing this for the females immunity as a baby would. Y’shua prophecised about this one!!! Not all are evil and bad, EXCEPT they are not permitted to incarnate into human bodies so are all on death row for just being here.

        • Peoples perceptions on ET’s vary widely & wildly.

  • Desiree Rubio

    I think this is all inspired by fear. They fear changing the status quo but also at a deeper level, they fear woman in power. Undeniably woman are by nature closer to God than men, we tend to go with the flow of life easier than men, we tend to have smaller egos -there are exceptions, though- and we are prone to feel love and to let our hearts take over. I think deep down they know that letting women be spiritual leaders will impact their religion forever.

    • mewabe

      It would impact the entire world forever, and “alpha males” cannot stand the idea.

    • Sander Viergevert

      I prefer my leaders and my managers to be a woman. They are by nature (indeed) closer to God… well spoken Desiree. !

  • mewabe

    “Priests must have penises”…
    Presumably so they can molest children.

    • Erin

      I like your ‘humanoid primate’…says it all.:)
      As far as the ‘cheap shot’…Lions kill the offspring not of their loins, don’t they? Hmmm…?
      idk…Lorena Bobbit always comes to mind when this subject arises.:)

      • Michael L


  • Anne Kress

    I’m not in the least surprised. I”ve had lots of experience with this outfit and honestly, I can’t think of a more backward thinking, male dominated, mind-closing organization than they.
    I grew up in the 60’s when Civil Rights were being fought for and changes were being made at a rapid pace, and while I’m not saying it was a perfect situation, at least some things changed and began to be a bit more equitable. We still have a long way to go towards total equality, certainly, but the 60’s did give us a pretty fair start.
    Now, however, it seems that there are a huge number of people who are absolutely set on taking backwards, not just 50 years, but more like 100 years to social strictures that didn’t work then and won’t work now. I know it’s a fearful reaction on their part, but that only makes their behavior more damaging. Fear grows exponentially in the face of reason, so where do we start to show these folks there is another (and this time BETTER) way?

  • Faced Booker

    “Mothers must have uteruses, doctors say”. How would we respond to that “controversial” headline? Would we protest that this is sexist revisionism? And mock those who disagree with us?

    “Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way”. A good philosophy, it seems, only if you agree that ours (i.e., our interpretation of CwG) is indeed not only a better way but the only acceptable way. If we cannot tolerate a diversity of views than we’ve understood nothing about the message of CwG, have we?

    People disagree about many things. If you disagree with the Mormon church, or any other organization, then don’t join it. Nobody is forcing you to. It’s that simple. But when we say “I don’t believe X, therefore it is unacceptable for you to believe X either” then who is being dogmatic? Who is demonstrating that they are fully in the embrace of the Ten Illusions?

    The purpose of law is to regulate acceptable behavior, not belief, though in this age of political correctness we’ve completely lost sight of that. I may believe I’m entitled to help myself to your car and that’s fine. But if I choose to act on that belief I shouldn’t be surprised when I’m arrested for theft.

    Organizations are voluntary associations designed to serve those who hold common beliefs. Let them be. If we cannot tolerate diversity of belief then what are we really saying about ourselves?

    • Therese

      Faced B.

      I think you have confused “Ours is not a better way…” with meaning that we simply let all ways exist without making it known that we think there is a way that might benefit more, or even all people better than the way something is currently being done. I believe it is our Spiritual imperative to point out ways that are not working.

      Yes, all is good and all is God, but God also allows us to create, and re-create our realities, and, hopefully, we are creating, individually and collectively our next grandest version each time we change our minds about what is currently happening.

      It is not necessarily intolerant of diversity to notice that something is not working for the people it professes to work for.

      • Good clarification.

      • Faced Booker

        Nobody wants to be told they’re wrong. We all know this. One of the guiding principles of CwG is functionality, and telling people they are wrong is simply not functional. Rather, we model in our own lives the “other way” and let the world notice. When they are ready, others may approach and inquire about this other way. That is the teaching moment.

        What I observe here is a lot of criticism, often harshly phrased, about the beliefs and practices of others. If Mormons wish to restrict their priesthood to males, that is there choice. Honor it. Nobody is saying we have to choose to self-identify as Mormon. But if one believes that ‘priest’ is a valuable role and that women should aspire to this, then do so and see who comes to inquire. Whether they do or do not should not be a cause for concern.

        Here’s the key to CwG. Because we are all one, the way we change the world is by changing ourselves and our chosen perceptions. So don’t worry about what others choose. Focus on the self and observe how the Self changes as a result.

  • Michael L

    “The Mormon Church, of course, famously excluded black men from the
    priesthood throughout its long history as well, until 1976, when its
    leader announced that he had received “a revelation” from God that black
    males were henceforth to be considered eligible for be priests.”

    See how easy it is to change for this church.
    Just one open leader, channels spirit and there you have it. Equality, Bam!!
    That can be our intention our prayer…….opening up the leadership of this church to the voice of God!!!!

    • I think that was actually more of a revelation of convenience for the Mormon Church. Not an actual revelation.

      • Gina

        BAHAHAHAHA…… I find this hilarious. So true. Let me put this in my native language and so those who speak it will look at this and it jumps out.
        ” 진리의 계시가 아닌 편리의 계시”

        • Michael L

          Thank you for you translation in Korean!!!!

      • Michael L

        Oh padda-one, yee of little faith!!!!!
        Lets just suppose it was real… reality says. It can and will happen again.Period!!!!!

        • It probably will happen again & it will be another revelation of convenience.

  • Jaz

    Sounds like Moron Church?

    • Kristen

      Oh dear, your poor deflated ego, no-one answered!! Now i get what you meant. Be controversial, new agey mumbo jumbo, a Neale follower sheep, reply to someones comment, academic intelligent or start an argument!!! Or you will be ignored!!!

  • Erin

    Namaste’, All! I can’t help but giggle about stuff like this. Nearly every male human on this planet, in their last moment of desperation to hold onto Life in their battles, will call to God & Mom…Not Dad, not Bro…Mom. Oooo, feel the Power, Female-kind!
    Those not in such dramatic states simply do not recognize that by the side of male is female (body vehicle style is of no regard), including Goddess, the other face of God. This would, to any ‘intelligent’ specie, be as noticeable as day & night.

    Hmmm…What does God want with all of this?
    Nothing…S/he wants Absolutely no thing, but the experience We provide…including Our silliness.
    Ms. Kelly, as with anyone, can very well start her own little gathering place of Divinity…Change the channel, invite Change, move other-‘wise’. I’m voting with the pack of “Let it Be”, & “Imagine” a new scenario (thanks, John<3). These are things to See, & examine as functional, adjustable, & sustainable…or not. Move with what tugs your heart-strings. Human is very adept at side-stepping, yes? Not just very good at doing that 'nicely'…Such a love of drama. I kind of like the comedy, though. See what Amazing expressions we/We are?

    idk…Penises are funky projections…they have a thing for holes (esp. loop-holes)…any kind, anywhere, anytime…Very one-minded little buggers, but easy to please as such. Not always functional, constantly in need of adjustment, & only sustainable with great effort. Not sorry, but the Vagina was designed with Artistry Supreme under the f/a/s defines. Hmmm…Just an observe…Just sayin'. 🙂 Good thing We love what's attached to them!
    (I noticed some smarty-pants came up with a funneled 'cup' that allows women to stand & pee…and write their name in the snow! Bahaha, Guys!) 😀

    • Kristen

      OMG, I just remembered the female cardboard pee penis pipe things. I bought some years ago when I saw them in a pharmacy and took them into work. I will point out Im the boss and we were all in jeans. We could not work out how on earth they worked and tried all possible positions. I jokingly said I wondered if you position it like a penis, and we failed to hear customers come in amongst fits of laughter. There i was as a very professional shop owner standing with my cardboard penis in position, with staff hysterical including a very devout christian in her mid 60s and the customer says “I actually have those, they are very handy when tramping and i fail to understand why it is so amusing”. OOPS! They are now in the first aid kit, u just never know!

    • Kristen

      Ew, did you mean to say one minded buggers??

      Control the penis, you control the guy! No brainer there. She/he who controls the penis wears the pants 24/7. No wonder they don’t need to use the big head with the brain in it much, we do it for them. Easier, faster, cheaper. And fun.

  • Nora Patterson-Vance

    Control is a very powerful ego booster. 40 years ago white supremacists dominated many states. This will not last much longer. Our young people are not predigest. When the new faiths come together, this will all change. Positive is in our future. But its good to talk about it.

  • mewabe

    “We know that people can maintain an unshakable faith in any proposition, however absurd, when they are sustained by a community of like-minded believers.”
    Daniel Kahneman
    Thinking, fast and slow

    The individual is more likely to question prior assumptions and beliefs and think critically than any group, which tends to reject critical thinking and reject change in the name of group cohesion, and to view critical thinkers as troublemakers.

    This is why I have always avoided group thinking like the plague…and why I avoid all beliefs, which have a tendency to want to be set in stone, preferring actual individual thoughts, which are always changing as life itself changes.

    A very obvious demonstration of the extreme danger of mob thinking: patriotism applied in wartime, when critical thinking is likened to treason (as in “You are either with us or against us”).

    In a religious context, it goes like this: “You are either with us (meaning with our God) or you go to hell.”

    Group thinking is the single most virulent source of mental and often physical oppression created by mankind.

    • Kristen

      Scripture does not state those of non religious affiliation will go to hell, not anything that can even be vaguely mis-interpreted as that. It does state that most people, upon judgement will end up in Hell, both religious and non religious but that non religious people will fare better as they naturally comply with Laws better than those who know better (religious people). Remember though, that the hell mentioned used heavy symbolism and is meaning an intense place where people will learn the hard way via spiritual awakenings, strong emotions etc. Their concept of hell is completely manmade and a load of crock. Hades governs a real hell for very evil people but the scripture does not mention that.

      Fried bread to you! With a hole in the middle with a free range egg fried with it, finely chopped crispy free range organic bacon sprinkled over, with parsley, fresh pepper and organic pink himalayan salt!!! I’ll post it!

      • mewabe

        Here is my path:
        Direct spiritual and energetic alignment with the earth, which is itself aligned with the universe, with the entire cosmos. I have done this since I was a child, spending much time in undisturbed nature by myself. Through nature, I come into contact with a universal divine energy and presence, and absorb this energy like a sponge, such energy being also spiritual knowledge.
        That’s also the Native American way, when cleared of much of the ritualistic aspects and symbolism, beside an integration of heart, mind, body and spirit (the 4 directions that form a cross in a circle), an integration of the individual with the universal, and a quest for self-knowledge.

        Have I earned my fried bread yet?
        Hold the bacon (I never ate pork anyway) and the egg, I will be waiting!
        Seems I have already been to hell, according to your description (the awakening and rising of the vital force or kundalini energy, which happened spontaneously and suddenly and without me seeking such a thing in any way, and which lead to intense spiritual healing…strong medicine indeed).

        • Kristen

          Boring………………………I’m waterblasting and mowing the lawns on this lovely winter Sunday, brains not in a new agey place. And my new gumboots are dirty. Traumas in the burbs!!!

          The harder the fall the higher the potential and rise. Yes I’ve been to hell and back too, but it is all a learning curve and always a sign of one who can rise up far. A part of the Laws of Equality etc where things are in extreme.

          Hey you are Jewish – no pork!!! But yes, you have earned it, I will send two this time. No GM in NZ so it will even be edible!

          Oh exciting – I have a follower!! maybe they will like some of YOUR fried bread too!!!

  • Noble

    I believe there are Four options: 1) God has a penis 2) God has a vagina 3) God has both 4) God has neither….. I vote #4… A few organized religions, need to get over it! NHT

    • Awareness

      In the “Ultimate Reality” sense, God (GREAT SPIRIT!) needs neither a Penis nor a Vagina 🙂 In the “Physical World” sense, God is merely using Penis and Vagina to “play” as part of knowing itself in it’s own experience 🙂

      Bless ALL! 🙂

  • Kristen

    The real God is 100% male, as well as being the God of His religions and the Universal God of Law He is also behind all male principles and the separation of different roles naturally into male and female principles. He has a penis Noble Turner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also remember in Genesis the Sons of God/Angels mated with beautiful human females and introduced taller offspring than the average human, and better looking. This is still prevelant today – look for wider rib cages, broader straight shoulders and ribs that distinctly go inward at the bottom to form quite a small waist compared to the average person. And higher foot arches – the list goes on!!!!!!

    But back to the thread – when the hell are people going to grow a brain and ignore what any churches and ministers say. All of Gods religions are between God and that individual, some with The Prophet and Y’shua as the middle men BUT IF THOSE THREE DIDN’T SAY SOMETHING THEN THE CHURCHES, MINISTERS AND CONGREGATION ARE TALKING CRAP AND HAVE AN AGENDA OTHER THAN RELIGION!!! Often control, power, money, supremecy, dominance, sadism etc. Pretty much everything except teaching the true word of God and his disciples. Look how they latch onto Paul the woman hater! My house overlooks a Mormon church, it is really odd that in a predominant ‘white’ area a very high percentage of parishioners are of Maori or Pacific Island descendency, perhaps all of them, and it’s a big church with a big steeple and beautiful music wafting up to read the paper and drink a coffee to on the deck. Seriously nice and calming. Just as the Catholic church down the road is full of Asians and especially Filipinos. ODD!!! We have 18 churches, and one huge multi million dollar Buddhist temple within a 10 minute drive!! Great for Sunday morning shopping, the shops are empty!

    • mewabe

      “when the hell are people going to grow a brain and ignore
      what any churches and ministers say. All of Gods religions are between God and
      that individual…”

      You have my vote. Why are people always seeking leadership, in all areas of their lives? True spiritual knowledge comes from within, from going within and listening to that inner voice, that inner knowing, that divine center. That’s where it’s at…not outside but within. We all have that small seed, that inner flame, that inner spiritual presence that only needs our attention to grow, in harmony with universal energies (harmony is law).

      • Kristen

        Why are people always seeking leadership, in all areas of their lives? You and I both know the answer…………………..because they are insecure morons. And mormons. Or both.

        I’ll make ya a Captain Fried Bread Super Hero Badge, to wear with honour. I’ll even crochet it for you, but be warned, I am as crap at crochet as I am most girly practical things so it may end up looking like Cochroach Fire Brigade Sniper Hero Bandage. But hey, a badge worn proudly is a badge worn proudly. And who needs sanity anyway!!!

        • mewabe

          Sanity? I never heard this word…what’s that?

      • Kristen

        Re your badge, just realised I didn’t answer seriously. You can pass one credit on your Law of Harmony badge. You need six different aspects of each Law that you can see in play or understand for YOURSELF (excludes reading what others have to say) and for three of those aspects you will have to give six different unrelated examples. If you want to pretend to be interested in studying Law, then a clue from the Bible Codes is to look it up in the dictionary which will often give you many different aspects of the word that you may see are Law and take it from there. When working directly with The Source it means true harmony, which he/it will often then develop into the Law of Embracement if he/it feels your views or opinions are unjust, pointless, producing negative energy or silly. Then you will actually have to embrace and learn to completely accept and preferably like these things. Although I don’t work as one, I am qualified and experienced as a Kabbalic teacher, written study guides and taught Law to many above including your main guide so to get badges for your scout uniform round me its either perfect or fail BUT I will give you extra credits because you actually understand that what you enjoy, accept, embrace, practice and understand actually becomes who you are, and you a part of it. In fact you can have three points cos, hey, thats just how I roll.

        • mewabe

          Kristen, thanks I appreciate your reply, but to be honest I do not always understand where you are coming from. I keep things simple and I am definitively not into Biblical law. I go by nature and the Source. I follow a more mystical and very individual, unique path if this helps you understand. Intuition is my only guide.

          Regarding your comment about “insecure morons”, I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but isn’t this rather negative? I personally don’t need or follow leaders, but I don’t think that people who do are necessarily unintelligent…they may lack confidence in themselves, or else they may need some guidance for a period of time, until they can travel on their own. Everyone is different and at a different place, some people need support.

          As I wrote before, strong, rigid group beliefs tend to shut down a person’s ability or willingness to think critically. So, these Mormons may appear a little limited…as do many other dogmatic religious groups. But insulting them, although it could be tempting, won’t help them in any way.

          Anyway, if you still feel like sending me a badge, make it look like fried bread, that will work.

          • Kristen

            Hi ya. You can’t hurt my feelings, this is ‘stuff’ not personal, I don’t personify anything because opinions and facts are generalisations that may or not include me in that particular group and I am very OK with stereotyping as it is merely an obvervation based on a particular group of people very similar. I only go by intuition and The Source also as you know, but as an Israelite my learnings include God and religion amongst the Natural Laws and all other groups of Laws (there are 7 groups). I was taking the piss a bit about being tough!!! As long as all journeys are under The Source, they are all individual and in a good place, it is when they lead to the Afterlife, just Guides and Alien Realms it is a problem for people making it very hard to get back on track once on a road to no-where!!!

            Insecure Morons – I am very much into tough love with people, especially Christians. Single parenting and self employment teaches you to be tough adn independant, and I will admit I am intolerant of adult babies and co-dependency, and have run out of patience BUT the words are not as derogatory as they sound. My bad though. Using three diff dictionarys insecure just means lacking personal confidence, anxious, uncertain, not adequately protected or secured, unstable, not firmly fixed, unsure of oneself, likely to be lost etc. Moron is no longer a term used for an IQ of 50-70 (that has been replaced with the medical term of retardation). It is lacking in thinking capacity, slow to understand, foolish, lacking in common sense, unable to think clearly, childish, trivial thinking, not thinking sensibly.
            These words are different definitions of you stating that religions and rigid groups tend to shut down a person’s ability or willingness to think critically!!! To me, that is what a moron is. A non thinker!!! No matter the IQ.

            On the surface yes, it sounded derogatory, my bad, but they are the words I choose to explain what I mean. People are at fault themselves, and allowing others to have too much influence on them to realise how capable they are of achieving so much for themselves, free thinking so they can understand what this is actually all about and within Christianity, choosing to believe the words and teachings of ministers and others over the word of God which can lead them into a lot of trouble. Scripture states many times if you are not going to do religion properly, then don’t do it, with Y’shua telling people not to enter into a contract (Baptism) with God they are not prepared to honour.

            Badge made out of dried fried bread is in the post, it will make a nice brooch!!! Feel free to regift. Nice compromise.

          • mewabe

            “Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. And I am not sure about the universe.”
            Albert Einstein

            I read somewhere that Christians should not read the Bible, but let priests and ministers interpret it for them. Talk about willful ignorance!

            Many people, in America at least, belong to a religion because they are starved for a sense of community…the old tribal thing. Humans, like chimps, need a tribe. So in a world of complete alienation, people coalesce like planets around core beliefs or activities, some of them completely inept. But they feel part of a group and that fulfills some of their psychological needs.

            Rare are individuals who can have their own thoughts. Most people enjoy being sheep. Is it part of human nature or a result of schooling?

            “Most schooling is training for stupidity and conformity”.
            Noam Chomsky

            Did I use the word stupidity twice? Definitively my bad…but by using other people quotes, I escape total guilt…I am crafty aren’t I?

          • Kristen

            Well as long as you dont use the word moron! I was going to say that I don’t have nor need a community but I guess i was wrong. Although I am an incredibly unsociable introvert and could live in the outskirts of a village rarely seeing people at all ( a dream), at this point I live and work in the same area, know lots of people or they know me, talk to regular customers everyday and chat with neighbours everyday so I guess I have one. Don’t need it though.
            Nor religion.

            Escaping guilt; good luck with that! The Source knows all. Haha! At least I have big enough girl balls to call a moron a moron, in my own words!! You can quote me. O:-)

            Oh dear, im using a stupid tablet, making me dyslexic and now Ive done a stupid tablet smiley face. I am now officially a loser!

          • mewabe

            At least you didn’t say moronic tablet, that would have been unforgivable.

            Thou shall not insult your electronic gadgets.

          • Kristen

            Neale should think “gosh, I really need to come up with some topics that hold peoples interest for more than two days”.

            hey at least I know I am a loser having a moronic gadget! To think it was even vaguely cool and acceptable would be the sin. And at least it’s not the other Eve bashing brand that launched computers at $666-66c. Now that would make me a quadrouple loser, and a sinner big time! Turnip time.

      • Kristen

        Hope badge arrived OK. If you are wondering about the hole on each side it is so you can use it as an eye patch if you lose one contact! Following Creators philosophy that everything must have a dual purpose!

        Turnips and wasna arrived today. Fried sliced turnips California style in hemp oil, then with a wine, pistachio and macadamia sauce. Yum. like your wild fertiliser – did I detect bear poo or was it buffalo? Unsure what wasna is but I am sure Wikipedia will tell me. Organic self sown pumpkins on the way, they are really nice cubed and eaten raw with lemon juice and raw garlic. Slight meaty hint will be chicken poo. Protein for the day!

    • Jaz

      Kristen, are you Kiwi?
      .. and you have my vote 😉

      • Kristen

        Ka Pai Tamariki Ma. (I’m white!). Thats why no-one in here can understand how I speak or when I am ‘taking the piss’ except Brits! Howick. You??

        • Jaz

          Kia Ora..Nice to know you. haha.. I can understand that, nobody here laughs at my dry humor either, so I laugh at myself to compensate for my diminished ego. I’m at Bethell’s Beach. And I am from Indian decent..

          • Kristen

            The Kiwi way; you have to laugh at yourself (everyone else would if they knew us so may as well get in first), but the other side of it is that we laugh at others as well BUT others on this strange planet full of strange people planet are very serious and it’s too time consuming and dorky to explain when you are being serious or not. After years in here, I have learned to not care, but I do say that nearly everything I type is done with laughter or a smile on my face! I think a Kiwi thing is that we type or use written word as we would speak verbally. Sometimes I do wonder if I met people in a shop or on the street if they would be a completely different person to online or how they write. Or just extremely boring and serious! I’ll get accused of being offensive and insulting for that!
            Enjoy the rain! Blaagh.

  • lamontstephenson

    God is everything and everyone. With that being said everyone is a teacher or preacher of God no matter what their sexual orientation is. If a woman has a gift to preach or lead prayer forums let her do it. Don’t restrict her cause she is a woman. She has a gift. At the same time the men in these churches have to also realize as well they have the same gift, so use it so everyone is using their gift to the glory of God. That’s why today you have church membership getting smaller and smaller because the leadership has forgotten that’s it’s about we, not about me.

  • mewabe

    Could humanity do all it does, much of it being inhuman, if it had empathy?

    Could humans kill, persecute, could they exploit, segregate, oppress other human beings, if such human beings were FELT (not just thought) to be a part of oneself?

    Most atrocities are committed through a process of dehumanization. The “enemy” or the victim is pictured as being less than human. The person segregated against is thought to be “less”, in one respect or another. Women have been thought by men to be “less” for centuries.
    What is not understood is that dehumanization is a continuous process that takes place everyday in everyone’s mind, allowing us not to care too deeply about what does not touch our personal lives directly. This is what is allowing unbearable situations to continue, such as wars and genocides, famines, racism, sexism, etc.

    People are too much in their heads, not in their hearts. They do not FEEL enough to be MOVED by anything except a certain degree of personal discomfort, when the s..t hits their own fan.

    Why are very young children protected (usually) from the horrors of the world? Because they are SENSITIVE, they are OPEN, they are VULNERABLE. Adults loose this sensitivity and become, with time, as tough as armed battleships. This is not the natural state. The natural state is to be AS FEELING, OPEN AND SENSITIVE AS A YOUNG CHILD.

    Ideas, concepts, theologies will not get us there, to a feeling place. They never have, because the process of transformation requires the opposite. FEELING WILL GET US TO THE NEW UNDERSTANDING (or “theology”), to the EXPERIENCE of oneness, through empathy.

    You can tell a non feeling person (the current majority) that “We are all one”, that will not open this person’s heart. You can tell such a person “Love your neighbor”, that will not reach this person’s heart, when the heart is closed. Instead, they will select which “neighbor” they chose to love (usually the one that thinks, looks and acts like them), and they will keep on hating and killing the others.

    A lack of FEELING is what is killing our world (literally), not a lack of correct ideas or proper beliefs. A FEELING person SPONTANEOUSLY understands and experiences the oneness of all life, through FEELING. An OPEN HEART generates a theology of love and oneness.

    Opening the heart takes the greatest courage, because it opens all old wounds. This is why humanity would rather die a million death, and does, rather than FEEL from the heart. The courageous person is not the one who learns to fight but the one who learns to cry and feel deeply, and to become human and manifest love, which is another word for oneness.

  • Of interest from a friend who posted this on FB : This is something of an aside to the point of this, but the actual Hebrew of the commandment says, “You shall not murder.” The common rendering “You shall not kill” is a particularly irritating mistranslation that both misrepresents the Bible and misses the point of the commandment.

    • mewabe

      “Murder” means, according to the dictionary, killing unlawfully and with premeditation.
      This would imply that the Bible condones “lawful” killing, such as when the government sends young people to war, or when it applies the death penalty, or when “God says” people should die for having transgressed.
      And obviously, the Hebrew Bible does condone “lawful” killing, with plenty of examples.
      This is one of the reasons why it has become mostly irrelevant in an age when “lawful” killing should be questioned and ended, because there is a much higher law than any government’s law, or any Old Testament law, and that is the law of love.

      Some Christians try to find ways to recycle their ancient Hebrew teachings to make them fit the 21rst century…but they can’t quite do it. These Christians do irritate me 🙂

      • The problem lies in the old testament, which is old & outdated. The new testament is much more relevant in many respects not all of course.

        I do not take the Bible as the only or best example of inspired wisdom, certain parts, sure. Yet “All attack is a cry for help” thus we also use modern wisdom to better serve in healing through compassion, love, light & understanding.

        • mewabe


          • Well I live in “Original blessing” .

            As for Christianity, it has a lot of good in it too. It will evolve at some point even as some churches are moving from dominating the planet to becoming stewards of the planet.

            There are conservative churches with solar panels, organic gardens, rain barrels that show more ecological responsibility than some more liberal churches.

            But your points are good ones & I don’t disagree with your perspective, just adding to it.

          • mewabe

            I totally agree with the idea of “Original Blessing” (Matthew Fox).

            Life is an extraordinary, beautiful, unconditional gift for which I feel endless and constant gratitude…I feel bad for those who do not feel this way, who do not feel empowered because they do not acknowledge the gift.

            My church is the untouched wilderness, always has been…that’s the place where the presence of the divine is, for me, most felt, because in its original, purest, free form.

          • While I’m a fan of Matthew Fox, I couldn’t finish his Original Blessing book, as it was not what I thought it would be, so I have a different take, his was acedemic & uninspiring as I recall, & frankly it’s been 20 years since I got the book, but found it disappointing, despite my liking much of what he does, & even took a workshop with him years back.

          • mewabe

            I don’t relate much to Matthew Fox because I am not a Christian and never have been, at least in this lifetime, but I respect his perspective…

          • So you’ve read that book?

          • mewabe

            LIke you, I couldn’t get through the whole thing…I opened it at different chapters and read a few things here and there.

  • mewabe

    “Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.”

    Christopher Hitchens,
    God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything

    • Let’s be clear, violence is mostly (not all) but mostly a male causal problem. When will we address & focus on that point?

      • mewabe

        Exactly! I couldn’t agree more Marko…And it has always been my understanding that in spite of all the talk of peace, the majority of men actually love to fight, and love war. Always have. Is it nature or conditioning?

        A simple look at weapons reveals a lot: the amount of technological advancement in weaponry, the strange beauty or esthetic qualities of such weapons, the extraordinary amount of money, time, energy and mental prowess invested in weapons research and development, all of this indicates a desire to keep on fighting for the sake of fighting, because fighting is experienced as something exciting, something manly, something that is worth living and of course dying for.

        In the animal kingdom, especially among mammals, violence is indeed mostly perpetuated by males. Animals accept their own condition. Is this unavoidable for us? Is violence natural? Can we evolve past our animal nature?

        Humans seem to be hybrids, the offspring of a union of the animal and the spiritual…mostly unable to be either completely, and consequently always experiencing a conflict between these two aspects of their being, one of which they judge to be lower (the animal nature) and the other one higher (the spiritual nature).

      • mewabe

        A couple of days ago I would have agreed with you 100% or more. But then, as I strive to always question all my beliefs, opinions and assumptions, I am now reading “Venus, the Darker Side” by Roy Sheppard and Mary T Cleary, two British authors.

        I really hate what I am discovering.

        As an example of information that appears to be suppressed by the mainstream media and the cultural storyline, here is the result of a poll commissioned by the BBC and taken on a representative quota sample of 1,978 adults in England:
        -One in five, or 18 per cent, of men have been victim of domestic violence by a wife or domestic partner, as opposed to 13 per cent of women by a man.
        In 2005, the National Crime Council, in association with the Economic and Social Research Institute, published the first large-scale study undertaken to give an overview of the nature, extent and impact of domestic abuse against women and men in intimate partner relationships in Ireland. Among the notable findings:
        -29% of women and 26% of men suffer domestic abuse where severe and minor abuse are combined.
        -13% of women and 13% of men suffer physical abuse.
        -29% of women and 5% of men report abuse to the police.

        I am not sure what to make of this new information that is coming to my attention. I have been one loudly denouncing the dominant patriarchy, and I still do, with the understanding that women are not its only victims, men abuse, oppress, exploit other men as well. Men have been killing and torturing each other for centuries. Men have also raped women, and still do, even in the US military, but they have also raped each other, and when taking into account prison populations in the US, more men than women are raped by men.

        When a woman is condemned to be stoned to death by some backward patriarchal society, it makes the news, at least in activist circles, as it should. But in these same medieval cultures, when a male thief has his hand cut off, no one hears about it.

        The problem may be a little more complex than I thought previously,
        and not so much a matter of women being less violent or abusive, but of
        usually not having the means (brute physical strength) to express their
        anger or gain control physically.

        This may be corroborated by the fact that more women than men kill and abuse children, where they have more control over a child than over a male partner.

        We may all be primitive apes after all…that’s a depressing thought!
        Some women understand the role the feminine can play in healing the world, as do some men. But they are not part of the mainstream. When mainstream women rise to power in the political or corporate sphere, they usually play the same games men play, including war games and games of oppression, exploitation and corruption.

        I agree with this statement by Warren Farrell, the author of “The Myth of Male Power”:
        “All women’s issues are to some degree men’s issues, and all men’s issues are to some degree women’s issues, because when either sex wins unilaterally both sexes loose.”

        In other words, let’s get rid of the patriarchy and all dominant thinking or control by either sex and return to equality and balance.

        • Awareness

          Thank you mewabe 🙂 I appreciate your highly questioning nature 🙂

          I could not contain my laughter when I read in your comment:

          “We may all be primitive apes after all” LOL

          But of course this is within the “illusion” 🙂

          mewabe wrote: “In other words, let’s get rid of the patriarchy and all dominant thinking or control by either sex and return to equality and balance.” 🙂

          I agree WHOLE’HEARTEDLY 🙂 There must be a balance of the Male and Female energies. Neither of these energies must be allowed to dominate. Also do away with centralised government. Each and every entity must be Self governing. In order to facilitate this, there must be NO MORE SECRETS, everything must be visible to ALL with nothing hidden. Balancing of the Male and Female energies also occurs during SEX (Synergistic Energy eXchange). We must abandon war and make more LOVE instead 🙂

          Bless ALL 🙂

          • mewabe

            Thanks Awareness…glad I made you laugh!
            And I agree about all you wrote…about self-government and no more secrets and sex…self-governing public sex (just kidding)…
            seriously, I do agree.

          • Awareness

            Great mewabe 🙂 The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂

        • Michael L

          One thought.
          As we evolve as a species,(I don’t have to take that ####) maybe the frustration level peaks, more in woman in the form of violence then in men.
          Young urban women drivers are the most aggressive and dangerous drivers on the road from my experience as a professional driver.

          • mewabe

            I think the difference between the sexes has been greatly exaggerated. The human psyche is both male and female, and much more flexible and fluid that cultural gender definitions allow it to be, as we end up with caricatural definitions of genders characteristics.
            Traditionally, girls were told that expressing anger was not feminine, and boys were told that crying was not masculine. So we ended up with a cultural model that caused women to cry when they were angry and should have expressed their anger, and men to express anger when they felt hurt and should have cried.

            Today, all barriers and traditional perspective are dissolving, and humanity is trying to find a new way of being. It’s messy…and will remain messy for a while. Some women seek to reclaim their masculine side, but they claim the negative aspect of masculinity (the aggressive, domineering, fear-driven aspect). When men try to reclaim the feminine aspect of their psyche, they often choose the negative aspect as well (the seemingly helpless, weak aspect).

        • I looked earlier today for a Facebook post I had on a documentary that showed I think it was in the military but can’t verify didn’t find the post, but that more men were raped in the military than women, but it was suppressed, just as your researched showed similar stories.

          I love to hear all sides of a story & visualize the day where the most important topic taught in school is critical thinking & media does not suppress stories as it does now.

          There is a lot of news that goes unreported & does seep into Facebook & other media. I enjoyed your comments.

          In I believe CwG book 3 Neale talks of a time where women dominated men & not necessarily fairly either. Men created the devil born of a women as a way to get their power.

          There’s more to say but enough for now.

          • mewabe

            Thanks Marko…

            About critical thinking, yes I like to look at everything from all perspectives…then I might end up going around in circles, literally, in my mind, because I can then see the validity of all viewpoints.
            I then understand that the answer is in feeling, not so much in ideas or perceptions.

            For example, regarding domination by either sex, using the mind we can deduct that the desire to dominate and control another comes from fear…and it could be agreed, using the logical mind, that fear comes from the idea and experience of separation (separation cosmology).
            But if the desire to dominate comes from the idea of separation, why then do animals have this drive to dominate? Do they think themselves separate from God and from one another? Do viruses or beetles have a cosmology of separation? Do they have conscious or unconscious beliefs?

            Bypassing the mind, we can look at everything that is not love (love being union, unity, oneness) and heal that part of ourselves that dwells there…where love hasn’t reached, where it has been kept out. We can see that all of these mental constructs are absolutely insignificant, they are just a lot of verbal noise and agitation meant to keep our hearts protected from the healing power of feeling (because healing can temporarily hurt).

            Seeing reality from the logical mind, the world looks very complex, and all solutions, using causality (linear thinking), are incomplete, as we attempt to determine that the egg is the cause of the chicken, or the chicken the cause of the egg.

            Using feeling, the intelligence of the heart, of love, everything becomes very simple, and all problems evaporate from within, from a centered experience of being. There are no more problems, as the solution to the “problems” of life is life itself, a life not thought, not conceived, not defined mentally, but lived from within the very center of one’s heart and soul, from within that inner place of all knowing.

            We can go in endless circles in our minds. We come to rest and to stillness in our hearts…here and now, in the infinite and the eternal, a place of peace and joy, and of inner power. Then we can see that most of humanity is not in that peaceful place, that center…it is lost in the mind, in thoughts.

            Peace, love do not depend on perfection in order to become manifest in the world…they create perfection, from deep within our being.

          • Thank you for your onederful thoughts, I saw a fabulous quote that I posted on Facebook. “Life doesn’t have to be perfect to be wonderful.” How great is that!

          • mewabe

            Thank you Marko!
            Yes life is full of wonders…

  • Jessica

    Way too common for some kind of religion who offers a bible that is even more judgemental than the Bible itself. One of the worst religion in the world, me, as an ex-mormon. Don’t be fooled by the nice missionaries. Study their scriptures yourself and judge whether they are or are not judgemental. Nothing reflects more of their real selves more than their own scripture – their famous Book of Mormon.

  • Debra O’Bryant Haworth

    We as humans with our self imposed restricted minds place egotistical restrictions on ourselves in the name of God.

  • mewabe

    Here is another example of religion-based madness (there are so many, it’s hard to pick):

    You may not know this, but Eden foods is one of the more than 80 companies that joined Hobby Lobby in challenging the Affordable Care Act provision for making birth control available to women at no cost as preventive health care.

    Michael Potter, the CEO of Eden Foods, an organic food company, claims, among other things, that contraception “almost always involves immoral or unnatural practices”.

    So there you have it. July 2014, 21st century, planet earth…birth control is, once again, immoral. Women must be kept pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen. And corporations are endowed, by their Creator, with unalienable religious rights. Can we stop the comedy? Because, seriously, it was amusing for a while, but now no one is laughing anymore.

    Who forgot to lock the door and let the patients out of the asylum?

    • Michael L

      Thank you mewabe for taking on this topic and using a fringe part of the debate and making it central to your argument, but in reality the decision by the supreme court made a very narrow decision.

      I have always espoused that it is never prudent to take away peoples beliefs and what they think is right. But to show them that there are more functional ways to change life for the benefit of all.

      The Hobby Lobby ruling only made reference to 4 forms of contraception (that aborted pregnancy) out of 20 available to there employees.
      This was a freedom issue,Period.

      • mewabe

        I am sorry Michael but I will have to say that I disagree. A IUD or the morning after pill do not equate abortion…a 72 hours old fertilized egg is not a human being. People who think they are do some because of extreme, fringe, irrational religious beliefs, and I am not sure about the wisdom of letting irrational fringe beliefs rule society.

        “Rev. Lance Schmitz, pastor of the Capitol Hill Church of the Nazarene in Oklahoma City, said more than 80,000 people had signed copies of a petition circulated nationwide by Faithful America, an online Christian group, and UltraViolet, which promotes women’s rights. Schmitz said he intends to mail the petition to the company.

        Schmitz and spokespersons for the Christian groups said the drugs are
        contraceptives and that women have a right to make their own medical

        “Access to contraceptive care is a very good thing,” Schmitz said. “This
        isn’t about abortion. These pills do not cause abortion. It’s contraception.”

        The petitions accuse Hobby Lobby’s owners of using their Christian faith
        as an excuse to obstruct health care reform and deny women access to
        birth control.”

        • Michael L

          Ok we can agree to disagree as to when life begins.
          And what is right and what is wrong.
          This struggle is only because most religions derived from Abraham has certain beliefs that are 100’s of years old. Is it the highest loving that could be?
          Well as each society that is maturing takes a little time to blossom.
          But if you use words like irrational and extreme, you just cement the others position.
          Killing living cells is a woman’s decision.
          Paying for it is what the majority of our society is trying to decide.
          Slowly evolving. Just don’t harden them into their positions. Respectfully.

          • mewabe

            I understand Michael, but if we start making exceptions about health coverage, where will it stop? The ideologically-driven Supreme Court has opened the door for other objections to health coverage based on religious beliefs, not a wise move…again, and as an example, employers could seek to deny unwed mothers health coverage based on religious beliefs.

            Given the many crisis our world is experiencing, are contraception, abortion or gay marriage really the most pressing issues, or are they used by political manipulators to keep the populace divided and distracted so that it would not look at and question such things as endless war and the militarization of police, governmental corruption and the control of elections by big money, environmental destruction and the suppression of alternative technologies, and the great eroding of personal liberties, all things that both political parties seem to support?
            Thank you for sharing your thoughts Michael.

          • Michael L

            I understand where your coming from and trying to go with this train of thought. Yes it is a distraction. And yes both sides are making their points on the decisions of the courts. Why, because it is the process of a 3 part government. Which up until now has worked to make a consencus for the (majority of) folks a reality. But because of the polarization of the 3 equal branches, stuff just doesn’t get done, for the folks. I’m getting the feeling it’s by design. No intelligent person can be so inept. And clueless to what will work, from both sides.
            Another thought. We are the ideologically driven court. We live with it or we make laws that fit out beliefs. There is no way One side of the equation will rule in the long run, so those that imposes will lose it all in a 4 to 8 year cycle. The harder you press the harder the fall.

          • mewabe

            I agree Michael, it is by design. Indeed no one can be that inept.
            And I am not sure the political process has worked until now…
            According to a Princeton study, looking at 1800 different governmental policies since 1979, the American people’s opinion has had approximately 0% effect, while political donors opinions have had a direct correlation on policy. “The best government money can buy” is something we need to end, it has lasted far too long and has now reached unbelievable proportions. Getting big money out of politics is a goal all of the public could agree on regardless of ideology, which is why people are being constantly divided and distracted with lesser issues, by design, so they won’t address such a crucial problem as a unified population. The strategy is obvious, divide and conquer is nothing new…but it is very effective.

  • Patrick Gannon

    “What do you think God wants with regard to all of this?”

    There is much that I like about CWG, and it was instrumental in giving me an outlet, another path when I was seething in anger after having read the bible cover to cover a couple times and realizing that my life (of fear) to that point had been based on lies. I was a very angry atheist for a time. CWG got my mind moving in other directions, thanks to my sister sending me the first book (which was a misprint by the way – one section was duplicated and another left out – and my sister hadn’t even noticed! LOL).

    My issue with CWG is the anthropomorphing (I think I just made up that word) of “God.” I’ve decided after much contemplation that I really don’t like that word any more. No matter how much I try to envision “God” as “all that IS,” I end up with a picture of a ‘being.’ A being, that based on the question, apparently has ‘wants’ (which of course CWG has pointed out is not logical – yet still consistently presents God as a ‘being’). This never rang true for me. I loved the CD and Asner as “God,” but at the same time, it emphasized the anthropomorphism of “God,” at least to me. The word “God” in my opinion, is polluted and perhaps should be avoided. It gives me bad vibes.

    I read Thomas Campbell’s “My Big TOE” (theory of everything) trilogy a couple times, and found much in it that parallels CWG, but I prefer Tom’s presentation. When he says “all that IS” is “consciousness,” he removes the anthropomorphism, so ideas like “God” “wanting” something leaves the picture. The cultural attachment that we have to that word is removed. To me, it’s a word that divides more than it unites, hence it is better to try and use another term. At least for me it’s much more comfortable to think of all that IS, as consciousness, rather than a man-like “God” who “wants” things. For Tom’s “god” consciousness is more of a process than a being; more of a computer operating system than a man. Perhaps others will also find this idea to be more palatable than the term “God.”

    Consciousness, Tom theorizes, is the ‘basic unit’ and the process of evolution drives it to organize and – for the scientific types – reduce entropy. We are said to be individuated, free willed, units of consciousness, analogous to ‘consciousness’ being thought of as a flat sheet or blanket into which children put their hands, and then place a rubber band around the wrist creating little puppets that move independently and interact with other hand puppets in order to create opportunities to evolve and raise the overall level of consciousness. All are part of the whole, but each is individual. This, approach, the evolution of consciousness has “determined,” is a useful way to evolve.

    No group can ever improve unless at least one of its members improves him or herself, right? How could it be otherwise? So ‘creating’ individuated units and placing them in constraints like our PMR, provides ample room to evolve the whole, by evolving the individuated units, in different ways and with different constraints.

    In this model, consciousness doesn’t “want” any particular result; consciousness is simply “observing” to see what happens. Tom posits that our PMR (physical matter reality) based on an arbitrary space/time rule set, can be thought of as a petri dish for evolution with the greater consciousness having only a minor interest in the outcome of the experiment. If it evolves, the whole evolves; if it doesn’t, then there are many other PMR ‘petri dishes’ as well as NPMR or non-physical matter realities, each participating in the process of raising or lowering entropy by being presented with different types of constraints.

    Our PMR is simply a “construct” of consciousness, just as a house is a “construct” of wood. In other words, it’s not “real.” Our scientists haven’t come up with a TOE yet, he says, because they have difficulty seeing outside the box when they think the box (our PMR) is all there is.

    When he finds it necessary to describe a concept by putting it in anthropomorphic terms, he somewhat humorously uses the term “the Big Cheese” to describe a chunk of consciousness that might ‘oversee’ a set of ‘petri dishes’ (i.e. PMR and NPMR realities), including ours. That’s a much more palatable name, than “God” for me! Hey, I could be promoted to Big Cheese some “now!”

    So back to the question… I don’t think ‘consciousness’ wants anything, but I think it may be driven to evolve by reducing entropy, which implies organization for useful purpose. Does a given event, such as the one described here, raise or lower entropy? Example: If community A organizes, works together, builds houses for each other, cares for each other, the community will likely prosper. They are raising the level of consciousness and reducing entropy through complex organization resulting in useful production. If community B tries to burn down each other’s houses, not let anyone get ahead, and fights for resources, then you end up with a divided community ruled over by a few strongmen (our society today?), which increases entropy, as there is little useful work capable of being accomplished. The level of consciousness on the part of the individuals and the community is not raised for community B.

    Note that the act of cooperating, organizing and helping ‘the other’ lowers entropy, raises consciousness, and thus could be said to be “love” while of course raising entropy, slowing evolutionary progress and lowering consciousness could be called “fear.”

    I guess the unfortunate incident confirming the “Mormon penis attachment syndrome” can be used to raise consciousness, lower it or leave it unchanged. It’s up to each individual to decide what to do with it.

    Disclaimer – I’m agnostic. I don’t “believe” any of this, but I “think” it’s possible. I also think it’s possible that deterministic, materialism explains it all. Anything’s possible. Avoiding or overcoming “belief traps” is mandatory to make any progress towards “knowing.” Too bad the Mormons don’t get that.