An interesting question:

What if there is no “heaven”? What if there is no “hell”? What if there is no “God”? What if there is no “life” in the “hereafter”? What if there is no “hereafter” at all — no Life After Death, no one and nothing on The Other Side, no “other side” of any kind, and nothing after life on Earth but darkness, emptiness — and not even an awareness of that?

Is it the promise of “something more” after we’re “done” here on Earth that keeps many of us going? And if we think there is nothing “more,” does that affect our choices, actions, and decisions while we’re “alive”? For that matter, what does being “alive” really mean? Does it mean that we are actively functioning in the physical world? Or does it mean we are actively functioning, period — in the physical world or in another?

Are these even important questions? Does any of it matter?

I think it does. I think that what a person believes about All Of Life — what it’s about, why it exists, how it works, what (if anything) it leads to — matters enormously. Or it certainly can matter, depending upon what those beliefs are.

I could be wrong about this, of course. But I think that the decision about what we believe regarding the Meaning, the Purpose, the Function, and the Result of Life On Earth could, and does, have a powerful impact on how (and for that matter, why) we move through our days and nights.

And I think this is true even if — and perhaps especially if — we have no particular beliefs about any of that at all.

Along with countless others through the ages, I am intrigued by this. Not so much about what I believe (or think I should believe, or feel I want to believe, or hope I can believe), but by what others believe. I am curious about where I fall on the spectrum of things.

So if it feels interesting for you to do so, please share with me your beliefs about all of this — or whether you have any beliefs at all — in the Comment section below. I’m anxious to hear from you on this.


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  • Not quite the discussion you’re probably looking for but thought I’d add to it with the following. I use to belong to a group that used tape recordings, computers, phones to communicate with the afterlife.

    It’s just my personal theory but I believe that we can find and create a blended technology that works electronically as well as psychically, psychologically & spiritually.

    That is, a technology that uses both the physical & mental psychic, spiritual energies to bridge the afterlife with this world.

    A window, tv, video, computer that can connect both worlds even though we can’t necessarily physically inhabit both at this time, we’d be in contact & that would be the third revelation. First it was fire Fire, then much later, public exposure & public extraterrestrial contact & then finally inter-dimentional contact.

    One example of this possibility is seen here From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Part of a series of articles on the paranormal

    Within ghost hunting and parapsychology, Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) are sounds found on electronic recordings that are interpreted as spirit voices that have been either unintentionally recorded or intentionally requested and recorded. Parapsychologist Konstantīns Raudive, who popularized the idea in the 1970s, described EVP as typically brief, usually the length of a word or short phrase.[1]

    Enthusiasts consider EVP to be a form of paranormal phenomena often found in recordings with static or other background noise. However, psychologists regard EVP as a form of auditory pareidolia (interpreting random sounds as voices in one’s own language) and a pseudoscience promulgated by popular culture. Rational explanations for EVP include apophenia (perceiving patterns in random information), equipment artifacts, and hoaxes.[2]

    • NealeDonaldWalsch

      Thanks for the contribution…fascinating and informative. And, having said that, you’re right. It has nothing to do with the question. So let me re-state my invitation for all. I am curious to know what your personal beliefs are with regard to the Meaning, the Purpose, the Function, and the Result of Life On Earth. I think that what a person believes about All Of Life — what it’s about, why it exists, how it works, what (if anything) it leads to — matters enormously. Or it certainly can matter, depending upon what those beliefs are. And I am deeply interested in what your beliefs are, as well as the beliefs on this subject of others who come here.

      • Theresa Siaguru

        At the moment, I am extremely grateful for the creation of your kind and I want you to know that I appreciate you for every thing you have tried to do to help the human race to come to terms with ourselves and the God in us. People didn’t Jesus as recent as 2,000 years ago, so why should anyone take your words too. Neale my brother, keep responding to the inner voice “GOD” and keep moving at that pace to help the world to see the light in the darkness that we have all created.
        I wish at times, I could just sit around and explore GOD, in the visible and invisible, the natural, the supernatural with highest intelligence like YOU to make sense with the things that are happening around.
        I think we need to give credit where it is due, to someone like YOU who is genuine and is willing to go another mile to be yourself and speak your experiences, thoughts, feelings, emotions, expressions, love, hate, anything and everything so others can also be able to see where they are. I appreciate you greatly Neale, really, and I truly thank GOD for you.
        Neale, I used to wish that Jesus was here for me to talk with him to understand and embrace his HUMANness, GOD-ness, SPIRITUAL-ness, and almost anything and everything, simply about life and what about tomorrow after all is said and done here. What happens to me, to you or to them? Do we live again, yes, but what will we be doing over there?
        Neale, I know you have asked Kristen to describe that satan creation and he has not been able to and so who can? At the same time, no one wants to even say what you have said. Neale, thank GOD for YOU!
        I could continue on, but for now I am only introducing myself to you, my brother.
        In all genuineness,

        • Theresa Siaguru

          Greetings again. Right now, I am exceedingly joyful to have received from you and that I can communicate with you. About my belief, simply put, would run along the same as the way you see life, the understanding, the conceptualisation of it, the meaning of it, the richness, the value, and the LIFE IN LIFE of it.Neale, I hope I make sense with that little statement of life in life, the essence, the unspoken, the infiniteness of it. I may not have had the experiences like yours but I somehow understand you very well. I have not read any of your books that are on the shelves but I consider this moment as divine as you are those many books on the shelves and this moment is precious for me to read than later.
          Neale, I believe, see and fee things the way you do and that is why I had not problem identifying with your spirituality or the oneness of that spirit. The one question I would need you to help out with is that , since we are who we are, what happens to us when we have left this planet. Maybe, you can help explore that a bit and help to grasp that. Thank you again.

          • Awareness

            The wonderful book “Home with God” by Neale Donald Walsch explains “what happens to us when we have left this planet” 🙂

            You can also search on youtube for “Forever with God – Part 01” 🙂

            Enjoy 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            “I have not read any of your books that are on the shelves.” What an admission after the worshipping love fest in the prior post. If you’ve never read his books, how on earth do you know what he’s really all about? It’s like Christians who want to tell you all about the bible, but who have never read it.

            Neale provides answers to your final questions in his books, particularly “Home with God” but be honest with yourself and note that these are only his beliefs, many of which he got from others, even though he generally expresses his beliefs as though they were absolutes.

            When it comes down to it, Neale doesn’t know any more than you do about what happens when you die. In reality, your atoms probably won’t leave this planet until it burns up after the sun uses up its fuel. Whether your consciousness continues to exist is something we do not yet have an answer to. Be patient. We’ll figure it out eventually.

          • Awareness

            I have noticed so far that all you have to offer in the area of “original” thought or “uniqueness” (which you demand of me and others) comes under the following:

            1. “I don’t know”
            2. “You don’t know!”
            3. “We don’t know”
            4. “No one knows including Neale”
            5. “Provide scientific evidence”
            6. “Lets wait for science to find out”
            7. “Lets just wait” (maybe death will let us know) 🙂

            You say that you are an “agnostic”, and I can say that you are not the first “agnostic” 🙂 Therefore all the ideas you have expressed so far I can obtain pretty much similar from another “agnostic” down the road (and agnostics before you were even born) 🙂 Therefore all your thoughts here are based on prior and present “agnostics” 🙂 I say you have nothing new to offer here 🙂

            If you wish to offer something “truly unique” to you and that is yours, then I suggest you open your own research lab 🙂 I say take responsibility, do your own scientific research in your own lab producing your OWN results and then present them here. Also produce journal papers based on your findings so that anyone can reproduce your results showing the nature of reality 🙂 Then you can come here and speak with “gusto” and authority 🙂 Otherwise, it will simply appear as you “parroting” the words of other “agnostics” like yourself 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Did I ever claim to be the first and only agnostic? I’m simply representing that viewpoint in a forum full of believers. What it sounds like you are saying is that if I don’t share your beliefs, I shouldn’t contribute here. Nice try.

          • Awareness

            Nope what I am really saying is that “your” “agnostic” ideas are not unique to you 🙂 You have offered nothing new here that other “agnostics” have not already offered 🙂 So I say again take responsibility and open your own scientific research lab and come up with something that is “truly unique” to you. And then produce journal papers based on your labs findings which anyone can use to verify your results showing the nature of reality 🙂

            You can contribute here all you want, but make sure you apply the same standards you demand of others to yourself 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Thank you, Awareness. If I had said he was doing precisely what he claims Neale does (culling ideas from others and presenting them here without recognition of their origin), he’d have challenged me to a word duel… even though he’s said he’s going to stop replying to my posts because all I do is attack him.

            Love, Blessings and Gratitude,

          • Awareness

            Thank you Spiritual_Annie 🙂

            Love, Blessings and Gratitude 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            I still don’t get your point, Mr. Awareness. Nobody here has offered anything new that I can recall, except maybe you, given that I had never heard of Wave X, nor introductions to Atkins’ predictions for earthquakes (FAIL) and some of the other nonsense you have posted here. If you can post such things, then surely I am entitled to present the agnostic point of view. Neale’s ideas certainly aren’t new, and he’s said as much in the past.

            I never claimed to offer anything new. You are making a straw man argument, which is decidedly unspiritual, isn’t it? Why do I have to put up my own lab and run my own experiments and offer up something unique to me, when you copy/paste other people’s work and put it here in this forum?

            I wasn’t asking for anything “unique” from you, I just asked you to participate with your own thoughts rather than copy/pasting other people’s thoughts and ideas.

        • Patrick Gannon

          Theresa, how do you know that Neale wasn’t just talking to himself when he had his “conversations” with “God?”

          If I recall correctly, even Neale admits that it could have all been his imagination.

          This Neale-worship stuff makes me very uncomfortable.

          • Kristen


          • Even if what ended up on paper and in the CwG books came from Neale’s conscious, subconscious or unconscious mind, it still came from “God” because of the Oneness of all Creation. Everything in Creation is part of the Divine Oneness.


          • Patrick Gannon

            I agree that we are ONE at the subatomic particle level. Everything came from, and will return to, the stars and cosmos. Whether there is a ONEness that extends to consciousness is thus far unknown, so one can only have beliefs regarding this, or consider it in terms of probability. I personally think a oneness comprised of consciousness, is pretty low and getting lower, based on what I’m reading on the subject now and in recent years; but I’m open minded to the possibility and look forward to any evidence to support it. I certainly felt otherwise just a few years ago. Funny what open minded research will do for your views.

            But let’s talk about God. Neale refers to God as “deity” and a deity is a thing, a being:
            -a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion). “a deity of ancient Greece” synonyms: god, goddess, divine being, supreme being, divinity, immortal; More divine status, quality, or nature.
            “a ruler driven by delusions of deity”
            -the creator and supreme being (in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity). noun: Deity; noun: the Deity

            And being:
            1. existence.
            “the railroad brought many towns into being” synonyms: existence, living, life, reality, actuality “she is warmed by his very being”

            2.the nature or essence of a person.
            “sometimes one aspect of our being has been developed at the expense of the others”

            I guess I’d be interested in having Neale explain exactly what he means when he uses the word “deity.” I want to see a definition closely related to the dictionary meaning, and not the reinterpretation of a word that already has an accepted definition.

            If you’re going to define God as simply that which exists, then, yeah, sure, God did it. So what? It doesn’t give his words any special weight or significance. None whatsoever. “Everything in creation” doesn’t strike me as the definition of a deity, based on what I see in the dictionary. If one is going to claim to have conversed with a deity – that’s rather specific, and as we understand and use the word “deity” in our society today, it means a being, a person, a thing; something that isn’t us. Oh you can say that we are part of it, but it/deity/God is something different than, and/or more than “we” are, as those words are understood by most people.

            When Neale released CwG, the term “God” had a specific meaning for our society and to large extent still does. I think that with Neale’s efforts, and others, the idea of God has expanded since then, and I applaud the feminization and humanization of the concept of God as most people understand that word. But it’s still something for which there is no evidence. It’s still hiding the fact that we don’t know.

            While I’m critical of the insistence on belief as part of Neale’s movement/religion, I have to admit that I think what he does is create a stepping stone for some people needing a way out of the legacy religions, but not being able to let go of belief entirely in order to face their fears. It would be my hope that other people, like myself, use CwG as a stepping stone to facing themselves without beliefs and accepting the ignorance every one of us shares.

            I think this is one of the best forum questions Neale has ever asked. What if there is no God, no afterlife? Does that make people uncomfortable? So uncomfortable that they just can’t come to admit the possibility even exists? Like Neale, I’m curious how people answer that question… What if there is no God, no afterlife? What are your thoughts on that specific question, Annie – if you don’t mind sharing? You didn’t like me asking this question in prior posts, but now it’s Neale asking essentially the same question. What if it were proven beyond reasonable doubt that there was no God or afterlife? Would that be good or bad and why? Like Neale, I’m very interested in what people have to say.

          • First, if you read the entire collection of CwG books, Neale refers to “God” as God, Goddess, He, She, It, Deity, Energy, The Divine… The books don’t stick with a single term, I think on purpose to expand how people see, think of, and experience The Divine.

            As for your questions, they are moot. My beliefs are in a Divine Energy that is the building block of all Creation. Therefore, I don’t believe in an entity that would send one to heaven or hell, or judge us in any way. And if everything breaks down to energy (which many scientists believe), and my atoms break down into energy when I pass through death’s door, then I am simply going home while continuing to be part of the Oneness of All.

            Who’s to say that energy doesn’t have consciousness?


          • Patrick Gannon

            My questions are moot? Since YOU believe in a Divine Energy yada, yada, yada, that means it couldn’t possibly work any other way? You could not possibly be wrong?

            As it turns out, I agree that our atoms will break down and rejoin the Cosmos from whence they came – but that doesn’t say anything at all about consciousness. Whether energy has consciousness is not a spiritual question – it is a question of science.

            This brings us back to the original question Neale asked – what if there is no consciousness; that it’s just an illusion as evidences suggests? What if it turns out that you are wrong; that the lights simply go out? How does that make you feel? Is that good or bad? Would you change how you live your life here if you knew this was all you had?

          • Patrick,

            I never said “it couldn’t work any other way,” or that I “couldn’t be wrong.” If you’ll notice, I preceed my statements with phrases such as “my beliefs are” or “I believe” or “I don’t believe.” Others are free to believe what they wish. I don’t think I’ve presented myself as an authority here, just a participant in the conversation.

            I won’t “know” (by your definition, not mine) until I die if I’m right or wrong, but I do know through my own experiential evidence, and both make your questions moot to me.

            I am who I am, and I act the way I do because it feels consistent with who I am.


          • Patrick Gannon

            All I can say is that you’re out of touch with current scientific understanding and should do some reading to catch up.

    • Awareness

      I sense (from my perspective) that what you were doing in that group as a form of “scientific spirituality” 🙂 Basically using scientific “tools” to detect Divine Spirit. You were seeking to come into a “Knowing” of Spirit 🙂

      Have you completely ended these “Spirit detection” experiments or do you intend to continue?

      Bless ALL 🙂

      • Oh, I use to read up on it. I haven’t for years, but retain a interest in it.

    • Patrick Gannon

      I’m glad you posted the more probable explanation: “However, psychologists regard EVP as a form of auditory pareidolia (interpreting random sounds as voices in one’s own language) and a pseudoscience promulgated by popular culture. Rational explanations for EVP include apophenia (perceiving patterns in random information), equipment artifacts, and hoaxes.[2]”

      I did some research on this phenomenon and as far as I know, nothing that could not be explained by natural causes has ever been recorded. It seems people want so badly to believe in stuff like this that they make it real to themselves, just as Catholics make the transubstantiation real.

      • As you believe so shall it be.

        • Patrick Gannon

          “As you believe so shall it be – for you or for the one doing the believing. And what will “be” is perception, but not necessarily truth.

          Since people frequently, if not usually, believe things in error, shouldn’t we be cautious about the very idea of belief?

          I can believe that the sun goes around the earth; after all it certainly appears to do so, and my believing this will make it true for me – but it’s still a lie.

  • Vitalii

    English isn’t my first language, so please excuse any mistakes.

    Among others, these are probably one of the most mysterious things on which I meditate:
    “I have been speculating about Myself for a long time. Longer than you and I could collectively remember. Longer than the age of this universe times the age of the universe. You see, then, how young is—how new is—My experience of Myself!”
    I wonder, what was in the beginning of “speculation”? If there was a beginning… I suppose, everything was be meaningless, and God had to decide, who he(she) is. As we do, from the beginning of our lives…
    I wonder, what was in the previous “experiences”, in previous creations? What kind of worlds, universes? Maybe there have been some kind of “test universes” where the laws of physics acted differently or partly? Or even: what if some of the physical parameters of our universe were selected randomly? Create a life in random conditions, there is much space for creativity…

    “Now I will tell you, there are even larger truths than this to which you will one day become privy. For even as you are the body of Me, I am the body of another”
    I think that one is amazing, my mind is stunning…but, if there are any Gods in my body? Maybe my cells contain universes? Maybe I am just not aware of it? If so, then curious, one whose body is our God, is aware of it?

    Anyway, I am so thankful to hear such a huge truths! Thank you Neale! Thank you God!

  • Neale,

    I tell my own version of “The Big Bang,” but the energy in it (including the energy in that tiny bit of matter) is an ever-growing Love, and as part of It the longing for Wisdom (or Sophia, which is ultimately wisdom about oneself). Not only do we, as humans, want to know and grow and evolve. I believe all of Creation carries that same desire, including The All, because, even though we express and experience physicality (thus far) as individuals and separate, we are still The One.

    So, as I believe it to be, the Ultimate Goal would be the self-actualization of The One, which is impossible to achieve as there are an infinite number of ways for It to explore Who It Really Is. Life, therefore, is neverending because The One never ends. As individuations of The One, we never end either.

    Based on all that, I believe the meaning of our physical lives is to help The All in its quest to know Itself. I believe my purpose for this physical life (which I believe I chose for this lifetime) is to explore and express compassion and gratitude in the face of adversity, and evolve to the point where I no longer need the contrast of adversity. I believe the purpose of all Creation, of the All, is to know, to grow, and to evolve.

    I believe in the Oneness of all human beings with each other, and with all of Creation. However, we don’t function that way yet. And I believe that affects the Function of Life Itself. If we were clear about our being One, we would know that to harm another harms Ourself and giving to another is giving to Ourself. We’d recognize ourselves as creators (made in the likeness of Creator) and would function accordingly, creating and co-creating what’s best for all of Us.

    The result? That we never stop knowing, growing and evolving—until we choose otherwise.

    Love, Blessings and Gratitude,

    • I feel a need to add a bit here.

      I very recently nearly starved to death (long story). In between the firemen kicking in the door and being in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, I wondered if I was “finished” with this particular life. I didn’t know, and so I completely let go and left it up to the All. (I was very close, with a BP of 70/30, though I didn’t know it.)

      I had an experience, which I believe wasn’t a delusion or my brain chemistry, but was more real than this physical world. It was an experience of expansiveness. Of pure Joy. Of an energy I’ve only glimpsed in meditation before. Of total and complete acceptance of who I am. But, then I was suddenly back here, in the ambulance.

      I now know, with absolute certainty, two things: death is only a doorway to a different existence, and I’m not “finished” here yet or I wouldn’t have come back.

      I can’t remember a time when I believed that people just stop existing when they die. But to believe and to know are two different things. The experience has changed me. My “walls,” so carefully built to keep people at a distance to protect me, are gone. I can no longer hide my emotions. I don’t have the constant sense of anxiety or fear, even though I have no home and few belongings.

      I don’t know why I’m back, except to guess that I haven’t yet let go of living in adversity. Or, of seeing it as such instead of seeing the blessings.

      I just felt a need to add that.


  • DANiEL JACKson

    interesting subject, I will return later to post a comment. Thank you for your post and contributions.
    Be Well.
    OBTW: how much space am I allowed to use? this may be a lengthy subject.
    Thanks again

    • NealeDonaldWalsch

      As much space as you wish!

  • Kristen

    My personal views are those of my affiliation to Kabbalah, which tie in with biblical teachings, but these were my views before I realised these were my faiths. I formed them when I was in contact with spirits, Guides etc from the Afterlife….naturally psychic people can see through any lies from above and see the Truth behind the veil.
    I believe we all have the potential to be immortal, for which goodness and righteousness are the requirements, along with requirements in the University of Life, on the Tree of Life and life experience in general until we are a well rounded human being as intended. This is a pre-Christ state. When we can reach this point we can be immortal, shifting to the real Heaven when our physical bodies die, continuing our learning, studies and teachings until we can pass the Christ state, then work for the Universal Greater Good under whichever higher diety chooses us.
    If we are not righteous or of goodness, or have not met the other basic requirements, then we remain mortal, going to the afterlife at the point of physical death then end up in a viscious screwed up cycle of reincarnation until we can get it right. The Afterlife is not Heaven, it is a lowly realm ruled by Neales God (Satan), where everything is in place to try to get humans fail in their quest for immortality, and is a complete illusion, similar to a computer game, full of actors and fraudsters. Who will then attempt to have as many people on reincarnation paths that will lead to death, negative karma and huge consequences, especially encouraging people to go against Universal Laws and Scripture, to pee God and the higher dieties off. They also follow prophecies closely…most payhs at the moment are based on prophecies of Judgements, especially “its time to destroy those whom destroy the Earth” and “its time to judge the dead (reincarnated souls) for their deeds”. Look at carbon footprints and how people are being manipulated into breaching Laws from above, especially Scripture…..Neale is up there with instigators of this.
    Therefore, in my opinion. The Afterlife is Hell……a place of manipulative evil, and should be avoided through righteousness and goodness, at all costs. Once in their web of evil it is very rare to ever get out so you will be reincarnated forever, or cease to exist before you are 1000 as thats the maximum age mortals can live for.

    • Pamela

      Hi Kristen, I am fascinated by your beliefs. Some years ago I trained with Roger Woolger in past life therapy and was regressed to a Cathar life, where I had achieved “perfecti” but perished in one of the Inquisisiton’s auto da fes. There are many similarities in cathar beliefs and your own.

      The Cathars had the same dualistic version of the “Good God” and Rex Mundi, the god that ruled the earth, Satan. In so doing they eschewed the physical world in order to be pure enough for their soul to reach the Good God and escape the re-incarnation cycle. I do not know whether they believed in the Greek version of the Hades afterlife that you describe (also described by Philip Pullman in his dark matter trilogy), because at the time of my Cathar death I was mostly concerned that I had been defiled and was no longer pure enough to reach the Good God.

      What I learned from the regression was the power of thought to create one’s reality. I had believed that the world was a cruel and evil place and that sex and bodily functions would defile me and that became my truth. If enough people believe in Rex Mundi, it creates a thought form that is then brought into existence.

      For this lifetime, yes, looks like I had to come back, I choose to join with others to love and cherish the world and so love that thought form out of existence. Because Neale’s message shows us how to do this I cannot believe he is a tool of Rex Mundi. As for the afterlife, as below so above, it will be as we choose to make it until we get to the ultimate truth.

      • Kristen

        Hi Pamela,
        Interesting, and thanks for your comments. Yes, my beliefs are very very old, under various names and sects, I choose the word Kabbalah as it is the only one still in common use. I am a first lifer, not reincarnated, as Israelites have their own new souls, and we are not reincarnated…we are either mortal or immortal, but all have true Angels and Teachers above to guide us in the right direction.
        If you look at Neales Gods words and core teachings very closely, behind all the words, it is the entity prophecised as He of Lawlessness. If you made a list of the basic Universal Laws, Y’shuas teachings and Gods Laws you can blatantly see Neales God is directly going against all of them…..promoting multiple partners, breaching legal agreements, promoting drugs, alcohol, sodomy, one book states ‘children are sexual beings’, is anti prisons and legal punishments, anti governments and Law as a concept, states people who choose not to work shouldnt be expected to etc..,go back to books 1, 2 and 3. He is also blatantly implying he is God when he clearly is not. This started in 1977, the start of his rule from the Afterlife. Look at the not so subtle changes since then starting with Sunday trading, now gay marriage (marriage is purely Biblical term) and everything inbetween, you can see how nearly everyone reincarnated on Earth now is being led/mislead into doing things they will ultimately be executed for or face huge consequences. I did an assignment of all the things that will carry punishments, and its so sad,..most people have at least two majors. Even the whole world learning english is a part of it…the Tower of Babel story, and “woe to you who are adept at mixing drinks” combined with drunkeness forbidden…not so discreet. And woe to you who build houses side by side with fences between….all the new sub divisions. My own countries population has doubled, mainly with Asian and Indian immigrants, which scripture forbids, and forbids their statue Gods,
        If all else fails, the Biblical God stated he is never changing! Go figure!!
        Stay on the straight path, and dont fall for crock masquarading as lovey dovey wishwash people want to hear. Its called death by freewill, Satans favourite weapon! I have tried to help Neale, he does not want help.
        Take care,
        PS Hades is a God who rules a real Hell for truly cruel evil people. He rules from afar, its like a huge jail city but there are no guards or staff, they are completely on their own. He gives all the weapons, drugs etc they want, its dog eats dog with zero trust as new gangs form all the time. When it is deemed individuals have done their time, they are offered a suicide drug. Which is seen as cowardly. This is a place of no redemption, no way out except death and I think its brilliant. Earth needs such places!! All peodophiles will now also end up there, no matter the circumstances, and animal torturers as well. Previously they went to the Afterlife to try to heal etc. There are no more chances as this is everyones last shot at reincarnation…The Source is over it all and is on a clean up mission, hence Judgement Day for all soon. Satan will be rubbing his hands with glee!

  • Mateia Andrei

    Yeah nothingness is all i expect after my life ends but hey im glad I told particular persons how i felt about them after i hadnt seen then in a while so i will have no regrets when im gone. So i guess rhere are no regrets

  • DANiEL JACKson

    What do ‘we’ believe in God and a Hereafter?

    God, exists as the essence of Love, emanating this Divine Energy to all that ‘exists’ from that Love Essence. God is Love, Love is Life and Life is God, the cycle completes itself.

    We are all immortal beings, ‘we’ need not ‘worry’ about how things will ‘turn out’ for there are no ‘things’ to worry about. Every-thing is worthless in true reality. To ‘believe’ ‘we don’t have enough (things) is ‘our’ conception of ‘endless prosperity’. To acquire ‘more’ things, this is not (true) ‘reality’. Things only exist in a state of ‘matter’ and will never be of ‘value’ to one when ‘we’ decide to leave this (physical) illusion.

    Heaven is an illusion too. Many believe that ‘when we go to heaven’ that is ‘our’ final destination. This is most inaccurate statement. Life is endless and ‘we’ may never become complacent in our ventures. No matter how long it may seem to take, ‘we’ will become exactly as ‘we’ were meant to be. It is not a matter of when, it is a matter of how. Yet matter does not exist either. So nothing or anything matters. Matter is an illusion, a reflection in a mirror, that is all. We may be able to ‘see’ a reflection, yet, there is no true image in that mirror, it is just an illusion as ‘we’ are experiencing now.

    In true reality, God does NOT EXIST. Not one ‘thing’ exists in that spectrum. If one perceives that one may ‘see’ a ‘thing’ then that ‘thing’ does not truly exist in Divine Spectrum (light). There is not a single ‘thing’ that may exist in that spectrum of Divine Light.

    So, why do ‘we’ exist, as a (what is believed as) physical being? Obviously, to experience “What We Are Not”. To understand who and what ‘we’ may truly be, is to experience who and what ‘we’ truly are not. Take everything ‘we’ may be able to see, everything. All of this is just an illusion to experience what there is NOT. If ‘we’ can ‘see’ something, it is not real. This, so called, reality is a mirage in a fog, it provides ‘us’ with a means to an end. We ‘believe’ ‘we’ exist in this ‘reality’, so ‘we’ experience ‘ourselves’ as relative beings, that is why this world doesn’t require ‘us’ to become (whatever) to exist ‘here’. It provides ‘us’ with a place to experience our (perception) of limitedness, for one may not understand (truly) what UN-limitedness is unless ‘we’ understand ‘limits’.

    God may seem to be Judgemental, Jealous, Vindictive, etc. or maybe Loving, Caring, Supportive, etc. all of these things are not what God truly is. These ‘things’, these words that express a ‘feeling’ is only that, a feeling. Not what truly God ‘IS’. God cannot express such limited expressions in such a limited world to limited beings, it is an illusion and ‘we’ may take it or leave it, it is ‘our’ choice.

    Yet, it would be wise, when ‘we’ express limitedness to express gratitude to an UN-limited God in a limited manner so ‘we’ may ‘feel’ acknowledged and appreciated. That is all that ‘we truly are (here), just a bunch of ‘feelings’, everything is ‘felt’ and ‘given’ accordingly. We, do (however) may provide ‘unlimited’ love in a very limited way to every person, to everything if ‘we’ desire too. It would be a ‘wise’ practice to ‘give’, no ‘matter’ if it is ‘reality’ or not. The practice of ‘giving’ is the important process that only the ‘Soul’ truly understands and this process is the beginning of becoming ‘our’ Divine Self or One.

    I don’t really know if I made any sense here, for I was not paying attention to what I was writing, it all came from within (as it were), I never ‘prepare’ for these statements, I just allow ‘it’ to come out (or through).

    Thank you one and all for allowing me to contribute to this site, even in a very small way. Much Love to One and All

  • Pamela

    I was bought up by an atheist father, for which I am grateful as his prime directive was to allow me to make my own spiritual choices without inculcating me with any set religion. He had three traumatic events in his life, the death of his mother when he was 18 months old, being among the troups liberating a Japanese prison of war camp, and being done over by the corporate world.
    He found his answers through philosophy and opera. He did not fear death – you either go out like a light, in which case you won’t know anything about it, or he could be wrong and there is an afterlife which would be a terrific bonus! Either way, your body returns to the earth in order to create new life.
    He was truly altruistic throughout his life with a key directive that everybody should be treated with respect – although this did not extend to criminals and psychopaths. He found it amusing that in a discussion between various Christian denominations and humanists that it was only the humanists who ever mentioned God.
    As for the purpose of his life, he put all his energies into loving my mother, my sister and myself. He could never forgive the Japanese, “in a German POW camp, there could always be some Germans with humanity, not the Japs” and I believe this contributed to the Parkinson’s Disease that killed him.
    I think his life showed how it is possible to be faced with evil and with tragedy, and without religious mores or even a belief in God, still be a loving, respectful, caring person.
    Thanks to the spiritual freedom he granted me, (and perhaps also playing with his mother when I was a toddler and having to make sense of that), I have made a spiritual journey where on the first reading of CwG, I breathed a sigh of relief that here was my understanding of God put into words.

    • Patrick Gannon

      “He did not fear death – you either go out like a light, in which case you won’t know anything about it, or he could be wrong and there is an afterlife which would be a terrific bonus! Either way, your body returns to the earth in order to create new life.”

      Your father sounds like a very wise man.

      • Pamela

        Thank you Patrick, he was. I described him here to show how it is possible to be good and wise without a belief in God. I think this was possible as he kept an open and non-judgmental mind. For example, that fact that it is electricity that causes lightening, and not a deity, was not understood until very recently, similarly there is still so much more not understood at present and still to be discovered.

  • Patrick Gannon

    Fantastic! What a great column. What great questions. Finally a discussion instead of a sermon. Finally we aren’t being told what we should believe, we are being asked what we believe, and perhaps to some extent whether belief itself is a good thing.

    What if there is no god or afterlife? What if it just all goes black forever? For how many people is this a frightening possibility – so frightening that they can’t really contemplate the possibility? I think it’s a lot of people. If it turned out that this was all there was, would that be bad, or frightening? Not for me.

    Obviously it’s not the promise of something more that keeps atheists and agnostics going, though this may be true for others. We find value in life even if this is all there is. One reason I think we are able to do this is because our minds are not conflicted with (a) what we know (we know that we don’ t know if there is a god or afterlife) and (b) with what we tell ourselves to believe (that there is a god and afterlife). I can’t help but think that having this conflicting information circling around in our brains has negative effects; and looking at the actions of believers of all stripes around the world, this seems self evident to me.

    One way I’ve faced difficulties at times is to look at the worst possible thing that could happen in a given circumstance. If Christianity is valid, for example, the worst possible thing that could happen is the worst possible thing I think humanity has ever conceived of – eternal torment for the sin of not believing the right thing. If instead, the worst that could happen is that it all comes to an end with nothing to follow, then for sure that’s orders of magnitude better than what Christianity offers. Even the exceptionally vague rewards of Christianity have very little appeal for me. It may also be better than what CwG offers, depending on the individual. In this here and now, I don’t particularly want to come back here again and again, struggling endlessly to get it right. Enough is enough. Before I came here, as best I know, all was nothingness, and if when I leave that’s what there is, then so be it. Hopefully in my time here I will have helped some people, and contributed to the continuation and advancement of our species in some small way.

    To answer the question directly, I try as hard as I can to avoid any beliefs. I try to maintain a skeptical open mind. As an agnostic it’s pretty simple – I freely admit that I don’t know. That happens to fit well with what my brain knows – that I don’t know, and without empirical evidence, neither does anyone else. What many call “knowing” could very simply be delusion, and we’re learning more and more about how the brain may create these delusions. This leaves me free to examine various possibilities, examine the subjective arguments for those possibilities and weigh their strengths and weaknesses. Not knowing and not believing, is not particularly comfortable, but truth tends to be like that, and I think it makes me a stronger and better person to not mislead myself with beliefs. I think beliefs are often just a way to avoid facing our fears; and fear, not love of money is the root of all evil, in my opinion.

    As for what I think is likely and probable – but I don’t believe this, I just attach a higher degree of probability to it – I think we are carriers of our genes, and evolving those genes is our purpose. I think it’s most likely, based on the available evidence, that consciousness and awareness arise from the brain and return to the cosmos as the disjointed energy it began as with our atoms eventually returning to the cosmos. It’s looking more likely as research continues, that free will and the sense of self are illusions. I think our brains may be making decisions and then informing our consciousness of them as though it was the consciousness that made the decision; but I think consciousness sits in the passenger seat while the brain sits in the driver’s seat. We see from experiments that brain activity precedes the conscious awareness of decisions already made by the brain. Nevertheless our genes appear to have developed a brain that seems to have the ability, by using the tools of free will and awareness, to evolve our species at a very rapid rate, as compared with many other species that came before us. Where this will lead in the centuries to come is an exciting question.

    • Kristen

      Just so I dont feel backstabbing, when its frontstabbing….Mewabe and I have discussed you above! Watch out for a gumboot and a little bird! K

      • Patrick Gannon

        No problem. I change out my tinfoil hat on a regular basis, and I like your design. Sounds like a good business opportunity. Lord knows there’s enough woo-woo going around to do a rousing business in tinfoil hats!

  • mewabe

    I really have no beliefs about the Divine, only constantly evolving understandings…bits and pieces of insights from direct experience.

    The same thing goes about the “other side”. Except that in this case I would call it knowledge. I am psychically and energetically connected to the spirit world….as Native Americans put it, I have one foot in this world, one foot in the other world, and I walk in balance. This is, the way I understand it, the ideal way to be.

    I know that there is life after physical departure. I feel the spirit world energetically. I have heard it and seen it. I can be in constant communication if I choose to do so. About those who are on the other side: I feel and understand their emotions, reactions (those who are around me are very much alive and vibrantly so), their thoughts and their messages to me, instantly. It is truly great, and I feel incredibly blessed. Both of my parents as well as my sister were also psychically gifted, and none were ever religious.

    I have also helped individuals who were on the other side who were not in a good state of consciousness. Because of their own actions here (one of them was one of the people who had committed a mass shooting, a couple of years ago) they were cut off in their own little bubble of hellish energy, of self-torment caused by enormous guilt. I helped free them, it took a few minutes, and they were grateful, but I actually only redirected them away from guilt and back to their heart and to understanding the pain that caused them to hurt others, as well as understanding and feeling the pain they had caused. The Divine did all the rest.

    Trust me, the idea that death is the end is a sad and absurd joke. It is just a door. Another thing: as we miss the spiritual dimension here and feel somewhat limited by physicality, many who are on the other side miss the physical and feel incomplete as well. The ideal state is neither purely physical nor spiritual but an integration of both, which our earthly journey gives us an opportunity to achieve, when we understand it and how it works.

    • DANiEL JACKson

      Mewabe, as always, a wonderful statement. I love it so much, thank you.

      You are one of the ‘few’ that inspires ‘me’, I do have similar conceptions, yet, I am in the beginning of such processes. Your ‘words’ are inspired. I now take what you stated and produce a ‘more enlightened’ understanding.

      As the cockroach said in the movie (Men In Black 2) when he did not step on him, “very decent of you”.

      Be Well (obviously you are, yet what can one truly express in closing) God Bless? To believe that God has not blessed you is presumptuous (God blesses everyone) so what is left?

      Live Long and Prosper, my friend (that still remains a significant saying).

      • mewabe

        Thank you Daniel…i am mostly inspired by nature, in which I feel the presence of Divine energy and knowledge. Go to the source if you can find the time, it is very powerful…I advise all to do so 🙂

        • DANiEL JACKson

          Wonderfully stated. I am into nature (as one may perceive such), I love just sitting on the swing in my garden and look at all the marvels that are in front, side and overhead. I love when a butterfly lights on a flower or leave and expresses its magnificent beauty. I recently had an encounter with a ‘praying mantis’ which would not leave me alone . I found it in a bathtub (apparently) unable to get out, I took a piece of paper and allowed it to climb on (it) and took it to the nearest bush, yet after ‘it’ stepped on the leave it (actually) looked at me (wonderfully expressing some intelligence) moved it head around and selected to jump on my shirt, then climbed up to the top of my head and stayed there until I placed my hand near enough to ‘it’ and it walked on my hand and allowed me to take it down to my eyes. I looked at it and saw that it was not frightened and it jumped on my shirt one more time and walked to the top of my head. I allowed it to remain there for a time, I once again took my hand up and it jumped on my hand and I looked at it once more, then I placed it back on the bush leaves and went back in the house to do some work. Afterwards I (truly) missed that experience. I am one who does not enjoy ‘killing’ any living thing, it is difficult sometimes, yet, I do love all life (and lifeforms). The praying mantis was one of the most beautiful species I have ever seen, vibrant green, perfection in expression and with a ‘leaf like abdomen’. I (truly) believe that this experience was a God given experience for that Mantis was in fact God just enjoying itself with me. I cannot (truly) express how wonderful it remains in my thoughts.

          I have seen other insects do some very unusual things after that, I believe (it does not matter if others understand this or not) that God comes to ‘us’ in physical form, not as a humanoid but as inconspicuous life forms just to ‘be with us’ for a time, it is up to ‘us’ to accept such as a possibility for ‘why not’?

          In other words, my friend, I wholeheartedly agree with you statement. If one has never been to the ‘Redwoods’ in northern California, I would suggest this highly for I have not hence have had such a Divine Experience lost in those giants. It still remains as a most Spiritual Experience to this date (yet, I do look forward to even higher expressions and Natures Temples in the future).

          Thank you for your response
          May all that you desire become as you wish.

          • mewabe

            I understand perfectly your experience with the praying mantis…I have had some interesting experience with animals. We live in an intelligent, aware universe…everything has a form of consciousness, even a plant. It’s one thing to know it in theory and another thing to actually experience it.

            I like nature away from all traces of civilization…in a place that looks and feels as though it was created yesterday, without even a human footprint. I enter such places, mostly in “wilderness areas”, with love and reverence. The beauty of every moment, from sunrise to sunset, is heavenly, and the spiritual power that is immanent throughout nature is felt more intensely in such undisturbed areas.

            There I go to learn, to listen, to be quiet, to absorb spiritual energy and knowledge through the pores of my skin, through my every cell…like a sponge.

            Once I sat on a hill, in the middle of nowhere, and a red tailed hawk came and landed about 5 feet away from me…on the ground next to me. It looked at me, and strangely enough I felt a kinship and a silent form of communication.

            This is what Native Americans mean by the saying “All my relations”. We are all related. Even the trees and the rocks are related to us.

            The redwoods are powerful and everything in that area grows enormous, even the ferns and the clover. It is best to go where no one goes, where the energies haven’t been disturbed, especially in an old forest. That’s where interesting things happen!

            It is also worth being in nature night and day, for many weeks. An energy transformation takes place that cannot happen when living in a box (a house or apartment). For one thing your aura expands greatly, and all your energies unfold…and connect with what you could call the cosmos. It changes you from the inside out. Try it if you ever can take the time! Remember that Buddha did not become enlightened in his living room, but under a tree…

          • DANiEL JACKson

            Thank you for your reply, it is well received.
            Yet, do not discount the process of Divine Progression. It may be of a great energy alignment when one is with nature, but if one unable to accomplish such then there are many other ways to receive Divine Knowledge and Energies. As a singularity bound to a dwelling for 2/3rds of my lifetime, I found that God ‘will’ communicate with us no matter where ‘we’ may dwell (be). To be ‘self’ confined to structures is a true hell, yet, light still shines there and knowledge will always be given if one asks for such.

            Love your words
            Be Well

          • mewabe

            Thank you Daniel, yes I agree nothing can stop a communication with the Divine…no walls, no cities…it’s just that natural energies are very powerful and clear, and it is my personal preference, as I also see much beauty in nature.
            Take care

          • DANiEL JACKson

            As do I
            Thank you for your kind reply
            Be Most Well, always.

          • Oh, the redwoods! I lived just south of them for five years. There is so much energy and wisdom there, if one can find a spot to be undisturbed. And, yes, even the undergrowth is huge, hiding oversized fungi and insects if one peeks.

            I was also just 15 minutes from where the ocean crashes against the cliffs, and the wind can blow so hard one must lean into it or fall. It was my favorite place to meditate, and where I felt my mom say goodbye when she passed over.

            Nature has much we can learn, if we’re willing and open to it.

            Love, Blessings and Gratitude,

    • Kristen

      I know the feeling… in two worlds. My mind is in one, by body in another, with psychic gifts and intuition grounding me to accommodate a foot in each world as well. But my other world is one of the Biblical God, Christs, Teachers, Princes etc, not the afterlife or realms of the dead. It feels like my 2nd home, and I actually have physical land there to build a resort thing on when I leave Earth (when Im old). Its all a blessing, and a curse, but like you, its my normal and all I know, except sometimes I forget to speak out loud as I forget people here cant hear my thoughts, do you do this? Or I draw a picture or diagram in my mind expecting people to see it….verbal words and writing things down is soooo slow and tedious!
      Anyway, passing through, Ill post you some french toast, Im bringing out my french blood at the moment (Im a purebred mongrel of no fixed race). Pity you dont drink or Id send some bubbly as well, so Ill just send a bunch of grapes. Oh, nope, that wont work, we only have Californian tasteless ones in the shops at the mo, you can pick your own!! ; (
      Take care

      • mewabe

        Hey Kristen!
        I don’t think that the entities who are around me are from “the realm of the dead”. Some are what you could call “guides”. One of them has never incarnated in the physical. They are connected to my through love…in some cases a very powerful love such as is generally unknown in this world.
        Now pass the bubbly (the carbonated grape juice to be specific) and the goat cheese! I will send you tasty wild blackberries, I have a ton growing here…

        • Kristen

          I wasnt dissing realms of the dead, I just dont access people who have passed away, nor the Afterlife, scripture uses the term Realms of the Dead. Remember I know a couple of your guides, they were in my ‘classes at Uni’, especially a Native American guy with the word Weather in his name. He doesnt speak english, but you can feel him staring very intently sometimes. I dont think he had ever encountered a modern white female! He calls me Pony cos I have a ponytail (on my head, just to clarify!).
          I think I know the love thing you speak of, I have one teacher whom I can feel absolute love from, sometimes physically starting through my hands. I call it love nuking. He tunes in with the song 1000 Years on the radio and feels sorry for me a lot, that I was born in a spiritual war zone. None of my teachers or guides identify themselves, they dont with females as it could get uncomfortable as females tend to get crushes. Only Moses identifies as he is my overseer with wisdom and medical stuff.
          Nice to hear that manual words etc are a pain for you too! Telepathy is so fast, but imagine the dangers here if everyone had it, thats why only higher guides and Christs are permitted to do it.
          Blackberries sound great, Ill await a ton (now I know who stole all the water), AND I can throw in some organic self sown potatoes and pumpkin, from hen dug and fertilised soil. Silverbeet is a bit nuts too, last years ‘stumps’ sprouted but theyve become a snail farm! Apparently open air composting is the new in thing…hell, Ive been throwing scraps from the window down to the crazy garden for years and seeing what sprouts. Im finally in vogue! Wahoo ( or high five, as they say in Texas).
          Take care,

          • mewabe

            I have had several guides through my life, at different stages…

            The love that I spoke of is also an energy…which has literally awakened my heart and my entire being at a level that brought a lot of understanding. I actually experienced the oneness of all life, in consciousness…entered a very blissful state for many months, and felt extremely light physically, while seeing like an inner light in all things, particularly in the natural world.

            It is difficult to explain, but I feel like I am no longer completely of this world, as if I was in the spirit world while still having a physical body. It is a great feeling.

            Since Patrick probably think we have entered the twilight zone, I might as well add something I haven’t explained yet, about what is called the crown chakra: mine appears to be fully open, it has been like this for over 20 years…full of energy. It feels very electrical…that’s also how I connect with the spirit world.

            Once you are in touch with the spirit, this world seems laborious. Although there are ways to live what could be called a “magical” or “enchanted” life, and follow your inspiration and bliss, there is still a heaviness to it that doesn’t exist in the spirit.

            But I do think the heaviness is part of a teaching from the earth…the earth is pulling us towards her, essentially, with gravity. I do think that we need to connect with the ground, and hear what the earth can teach us. The quickest way to the upper world might just be through the world below our feet, within the earth itself, which also has a form of consciousness.

            So you throwing scraps from your kitchen window explains the banana peel that landed on the head yesterday. Now I know…

            Vaya con Dios, as they say in Sweden…
            Take care!

          • Kristen

            Oops sorry about tha banana peel! I hear they are good for the crown chakra tho, when worn as a hat on a full moon, whilst in a cloak of sage. Perhaps I was acting for your guide trying placement for ya!
            I understand what you mean to all of the above…Im scared Patrick will reply! He can refer his comments to you, not me. Im all argued out, and cant prove my truths. But Patrick, Im too cool for tinfoil hats, unlike monster headed Mewabe, and I have pride, so Id prefer a tiara with copper antennae, thanks! Normal size…and dont forget matching shoes UK8. Or maybe electric shock therapy!
            I love Earth and the physical, but dont think Id want anything else (except a rainfree, mudfree, dustfree, rubbishfree, evilfree $$$$free place), but yes, we need to learn a gazillion things that can only be learned here, and yup, the balance is through the head being up and the feet being down. Input from both ends is a balanced solar plexus chakra…physically good balance, good digestion, healthy internal organs, strong abdominal wall and diaphram. Any mid section problems are an imbalance, obesity is as unspiritual as you can get….100% earthly which is generally a place of greed. Higher realms are places of rationing and altruism. Sometimes I feel tiny and weightless, from the energy from above, like a 5year old in a huge heavy world, but it seems to only be in loose fitting floaty summer dresses, although I have heard that structured or fitted clothes create barriers, and have you ever had “fat body” where it feels like your body and tongue are puffing up? This is an aura cleanse and repair, but it is also done when people are terminally ill as it takes pain away cos you feel wrapped in cotton wool so cant even feel the bed against your body.
            My crown chakra has been open for maybe 10years, although it is often shut a bit by those above which feels like a tight tingly beanie, when my mind wonders too much or kind of snoop into info free floating up above via intuition!! I like picking up bits of meeting minutes and stuff I probably shouldnt access!
            Arigato gozimas (cant spell it sorry), with a head bow,
            Actually Ill say ‘you have a great day ma’am’ with an annoying American TV twang, as they say in the Phillipines…and call centres….and Dunkin Donuts!!

          • mewabe

            I am very lean, so I must be not greedy 🙂
            On the other hand…okay, no, I won’t say anything about Walmart customers. We have covered this (rather large) topic already…damn it does need some covering.

            Yes, I did use the banana peel, as I could tell it came from a very special place, as a hat in a very special ceremony involving the moon (how did you know?) and burning some sage, and then burning the house, and burning the town and half the county. Patrick, I hope you are taking notes!

            Too cool for tinfoil hats huh? So what, you think you are better than me? Can’t wear a tinfoil hat like everybody else? Now missy wants to feel special?

            You are right about balance…like a tree, rooted in the earth and reaching for the sky and the light.

            No, that wouldn’t be “ma’am”, not even with a twang…just call me dude, that’s what I was the last time I checked, and I haven’t heard anything fall off yet.
            Orangutan godzilla…close enough.

          • Kristen

            Kai Ora,
            Filipinos only say ma’am, who am I to correct their language. Well aware you have/had an appendage (or spare parts as I prefer to call them), but you may wnt to change that birth certificate. Not for a gender change, more a country of birth change, America despise foreigners dont they?! Especially those who dont support the pride of America….Walmart. I still cant believe you referred me to that, I still have nightmares, my tiny brain cant even process it. As for my eyes…well thanks. I now need reading glasses, you damaged me for life! And I beg of you, plllleeeeaaaassseeee feel no need to inform me if the boy bits fell off. Bruce!
            Wow…you not only confessed to stealing all the California water for your berries, you have now fessed up to all the wild fires. Banana hats are damn potent, be careful. Ancient Chinese proverb…’One should never underestimate the banana peel, it is the strength of the mighty dragon incarnate’. You really ought to read more, these things are the keys to life.
            What the hell are you on….fermented berries? You are being very laid back…must be the whole dude phase rather than your Mewabe the sage guru stage!
            Im lean too, I never eat more than maybe a cupful but my diet is 90% liquids anyway. Which celebs are now starting…..see just how cool I am, the wannabes copy me, just like they are now rolling their jeans up too. My problem with tinfoil hats is that they are just so common these days, and are sooo 1984! Come on ‘dude’, you can at least ask your friend Partrick to bring back the good ole colinder strainer. Now that Id be up for. Oh hang on…too similar to bike helmets. Ill stick with my tinfoil tiara thanks.
            Take it if and how you can get it!!! Beggars cant be choosers!
            I think Im losing your guru kudos with Daniel, sorry bout that. Or not!!
            Sayonara dude!

          • mewabe

            Sleep is calling, although I was burning the midnight oil working on a deadline, but I now reached the finish line and I feel quite dead.

            Yes long ago I read about mighty bananas peels and their secret powers. I was a little careless and I forgot, what can I say? I have to brush up on Confucius.

            Update: everything is still attached correctly. The world can now breathe a collective sigh of relief, the trepidations ( I mean the tribulations) haven’t started yet. Speaking of, are you following the US presidential erections? (I mean elections, damn…I apologize!)

            No need for fermented berries, the “dude” is my every day personality (oh no!…oh yes). The sage is usually silent and contemplative in real life. I just like writing, filling up space…I will try graffiti next.

            I could eat an elephant and still not gain weight…I have a fast metabolism. It all goes to my big and heavy monster head.

            I think I will have to send you the tinfoil tiara, Patrick is on strike. And he won’t get mixed up with the wrong crowd. He won’t have anything to do with the dude…

            I have to go to sleep, tomorrow is another day. Really? Who comes up with this c..p? I would have never imagined that tomorrow could be another day.

            Take it while you can…Janis, is that you?
            Later dudess!

          • Kristen

            Good morning (by the time you read this).
            What the fork?…..its my bedtime here in NZ…you worked thru the nite. No wonder you didnt know if you were a boy or girl! I didnt know artwork for cereal boxes had such tight deadlines, but hey, I know but nought about nought.
            Yup, Patrick is on strike, I dont think he, nor anyone would waste their time trying to say our reality isnt real, not when we are on the same page, or sage, on it anyway.
            I know you have a fast metabolism, me too. Any word that applies to a person as dominant in any aspect, will be dominant in every aspect and context. You are a fast thinker, reader and typer so will do tasks fast, fall asleep fast, make friends fast, get ready fast, work fast, will have a fast body and a fast metabolism. An assignment for you..find 10 words about yourself and others. Anything you can see in others will work. Even the good ole Walmart example. Lazy bodies, lazy minds, lazy at work, lazy shoppers and lazy bowels. Eeeewwwww! Theyl also have no taste…no taste in clothes, partners, food, housing, decor, ruined taste buds etc. Its a fun game to psychoanalyse people, like reading clothes! How we entertain ourselves!
            Just freaken take it dude!!!
            Ta rah…as they say in London

          • mewabe

            Happy Sunday!…still buried in deadlines, haven’t had time to get back to this thread. Hey I never thought of myself as being dominant in any way…I just feel like I am too fast for those who move and think like pachyderms or any other ruminant.
            Psychoanalyzing…I don’t know. Could it be that there are different species of consciousness, different families of consciousness? I think I belong to a tiny minority (of consciousness). You probably feel the same way…many who follow a true spiritual path do, as well as those who do not function well in this crazy world.
            Now I am getting all serious again so I better quit.
            I need to take a break (from work)…and go smell some roses or something.
            Hasta luego as they say on Jupiter

          • Kristen

            Happy Monday…as they say in NZ, we are ahead of the world!
            Yup, the world is full of wierdos, we are the normal ones. What is this thread about anyway????
            Hey thanks sooooooo much for the amazing foil tiara, arrived this morning. That was quick. Assume the berries hanging from it are to prevent flies getting in my face, like Australian hats have. Nice gesture. Since I am just so cool, and an official dudess, I will wear it tonight to a dad date Neil Diamond concert. Will get out my glue gun and embellishments now and make me an American style sparkley tshirt, go to Kmart and find some high waisted mum jeans (ill fitting, saggy bum, straight legs, inch too short), then Il be all set. Sometimes I just cannot believe how cool one can possibly get!
            You go smell the rosemary…staves off dementia and increases memory and thinking capacity, whilst I get crafting (cringe!!).
            Pasta Fettucine…as they say on Planet X
            Take care

          • mewabe

            I got rosemary growing everywhere here, along with wild sage and lavender…but I am still quite demented.

            You are welcome, I got the tiara at Walmart, so you might want to spray it with something to get rid of the germs.

            Send a picture of your outfit (costume?) I just want to see what cool looks like. No, no need, all I have to do is step out and look around here…it’s quite the place for cool. There is even someone who drives around town in a convertible with a giant flag (about 10 ft long) attached to the back (just so he can remember what country he lives in).
            Neil Diamond…my lunch almost exited.

            This thread? Dunno…somethin’ ’bout some afterhere…or herebefore? Got me all confused again, I need to get me some more rosemary juice!
            Zucchini kundalini as I always say but nobody believes me.
            Take cake.

          • Kristen

            Dementia…aha. Thats our problem…I found jeans in the bathroom cupboard the other day, no one will own up to it, half worried it was actually me!!!
            Lavender offsets rosemary, stick with the sage. It means wisdom, humour and spiritual wealth.
            We see lots of car flags too, but just our sporting Loyal flag cos its rugby world time. And we like to kick butt!
            You need a watch, its not lunchtime yet, or are you nocturnal?. If you are actually on Earth?
            Yup, will send you a pic, although I dont allow my photo taken, ever. Might accidently be of someone else, somewhere else, doing something else, but who cares!
            Humphhh to Neil Diamond, you just arent cool enough. Come on, the guy has Christmas photos with his dogs. And if hes going to allow me to pay him to sing me cool 70s songs from my childhood then who am I to judge. In fact, I might now even wear denim with denim if I can find a matching set. And some cheap mum sneakers.
            Cucumber sleepslumber as I never say, but it rhymes and you have a food thing going down.

          • mewabe

            You mean to tell me that tools and jeans do not belong in the freezer and that I have to take the buffalo carcass out of the bathtub? Himmel, Arsch, und Zwirn! I channel German when I am upset, I don’t know what it means but it sounds good don’t you think?
            What is time but a fleeting illusion? Zarathustra said that to me once, over lunch.
            You had a childhood? I was born old, but I am much younger now. Bob said that to me once, over coffee.
            How about bell bottom pants? Aren’t they back? Go for it!
            One man’s junk is another man’s treasure, as Homeland Security officers are found of saying at airports (you have heard of Homeland Security at US airports haven’t you? Their motto: “Keeping America safe one crotch at a time”).
            Take it eezzee

          • Kristen

            Im still in my childhood….oops, thats my dementiahood. My dad says my problems are just cos I was born too young…gotta love dad jokes.
            Bell bottoms went out? Ooooppppsss, thats awkward. Maybe Im not cool after all.
            We have now completely done in Patricks head, hes offered the tinfoil hats to oeople, is discussing Pokemon and drinking!!! Wahoo!!!
            Red Red Wine…as they say at Neil Diamond concerts, being 74 with sequins in your pants rapping with a Jamacian accent. Now thats cool!!!!!!!

          • No respect lost here, my friend. You’re just showing your well-rounded personality and unique sense of humor. I knew they were there, so it’s good to see them.


          • mewabe

            Thanks Annie, I like banter…I know this is not the place on this site, but it’s fun.
            Take care 🙂

          • Ahhh… But why shouldn’t it be fun here? Spirituality needn’t always be so serious. The God in the CwG books certainly has a sense of humor.


          • mewabe

            True…but I am not sure Neale appreciates the space being used for more personal fun. Perhaps…
            Humor is a sign of psychological health…so a healthy God has to have a good sense of humor!

          • Patrick Gannon

            If Neale allows “This Awareness” to repost crap from other websites having nothing to do with the topic of his columns – and indeed introducing another God which is supposedly a superset of Neale’s God, then it’s clear that there are few restrictions on what we can write here – except post links with evidence. Humor is a wonderful thing.

            A thought about humor — have you ever noticed that things which give you a real belly laugh, that set you rolling on the floor with tears leaking out of your eyes as you guffaw loudly, always seem to have an element of hurt to them. Practical jokes by definition are hurtful, jokes about death, the time Mary Jane lost her panties – it wasn’t funny to her. Strong laughter is almost always the product of some kind of hurt.

            Robert Heinlein in “Stranger in a Strange Land” put it well: (paraphrased) ‘The goodness is in the laughing itself. It is a bravery… and a sharing… against pain and sorrow and defeat.’ He goes on to suggest, ‘why are there so many jokes about death? Death is so sad that we must laugh at it. All those religions – they contradict each other on every other point, but every one of them is filled with ways to help people be brave enough to laugh even though they know they are dying.’

    • mewabe,

      How well you express your beliefs and experiences, my friend. I am grateful that you are here, and willing to share your knowledge and insights freely with us.

      Love, Blessings and Gratitude,

      • mewabe

        Thank you Annie, you are very kind as always…
        Love, blessings and gratitude to you too 🙂

    • There are ET’s who are said retain themselves in the physical & also travel incorporeal to other dimensions, the afterlife, hence living here in this physical universe & having the best of both worlds at will.

      • mewabe

        It is possible to have “out of body” experiences and to “travel” (in consciousness) to other “dimensions” while in this life, including other “time dimensions”, as well as to see the “hereafter” although there are many “dimensions” there as well.
        Everything in life is about consciousness, and how pliable and stretchable it becomes, up and down, inward and outward and forward and backward, so to speak.
        The physical and the spiritual are simply two different frequencies of the same vibrational scale, like two musical notes. Consciousness can travel on that scale when it becomes flexible enough. It is simply a matter of letting go of fear and of understanding the nature of consciousness…

        • DANiEL JACKson

          That is amazing for I was just about to post a statement of similar possibilities. In my opinion, when ‘we Dream, ‘we’ experience another dimension (as it were) and that ‘dream’ is as a ‘true’ experience as any other ‘we’ may have experienced. I believe ‘we’ are not limited to this world, ‘we’ dwell at multiple levels of conscientiousness. The ‘realest’ will disagree with this conception for it may seem that this is just a natural process of releasing unwanted ‘garbage’ in our brain (as it has been indicated), yet, how do ‘we’ truly understand at how many ‘levels’ we may exist? I spoke to one of my spiritual guides recently and was given an answer to a question I asked ‘him’. I asked, why are you still in heaven, it’s been more than a thousand years since you passed, the reply was: “It may not be known to many but ‘we’ all dwell in ‘heaven’ at all times and only experience limitedness as ‘we’ desire as the physical expression of lower vibratory energy”, continued to express: ‘We all have one foot in heaven and the other foot wherever ‘we’ desire to experience”. I pass this on to one and all, it may be just a ‘misconception’ on my part, yet, I do not discount it as a truth.
          To extrapolate, I would have to say that in a presumption that ‘we’ are ‘made up’ of more than a singular construct, perhaps ‘we’ have many ‘pieces’ that may be experiencing something at all levels. Perhaps, if we conceive that ‘we are made up of atoms (just an illustration) that, maybe, each atom experiences something of ‘its own’ and in the final evaluation of each experience, ‘we’ collaborate with each ‘particle’ of ‘our’ being to understand the possibility of ‘our’ ultimate experience. The Ultimate Experience would be, of course, to become God.

          Just a thought (or two)

          As always, my friends, be excellent unto each other.

          • mewabe

            Have you ever experienced lucid dreaming? How about having a dream, then going back to it the next night, and the next, in 2 or 3 episodes?
            Have you dreamt the same dream as another person you are close to, but from your own perspective, as if you met in the same dream and dreamt together?
            Have you ever had a dream that felt much more real than “real” life?
            Have you ever had someone calling your name very clearly in your dream, to wake you up when you needed to, but there was no “actual” person there when you woke up, just you?
            Have you ever dreamt about a situation involving another person that happened later exactly as you dreamt it, but the hidden reasons for what happened were explained in your dream before anything happened?
            Have you ever consciously changed the outcome of a dream while dreaming? Have you ever dreamt that you were dreaming?
            All of these things are consciousness “exercises”…flexing, stretching your consciousness. The same and so much more can be achieved in the wakeful state…

          • DANiEL JACKson

            Now that is an amazing question. For recently I have been having some very wonderful and imaginative dreams. Nothing of a frightful nature mind you but just adventures with different people and those people are familiar but most are not. I had a dream yesterday that was, what I may call an exciting possibility and after waking up for a short time, I was able to indulge myself in that dream once more. Yet, the dream changed as I recall and I desired to continue with the original dream and at times was able to reconstruct that dream but it eventually faded but a dream did continue in an adventurous state. I loved it and felt very much ‘alive’ (for lack of a better expression) when I finally got up.

            However, I did have a most magnificent dream or two in the past several months. One dream remains very clear to me, I was in a dream state, just dreaming (as usual) when a ‘portal’ opened up before me and I looked inside and saw, what I deem as heaven, it had the most ‘vivid’ images that I have ever ‘seen’ in a dream (to my recollections) and I saw trees, plants or green and vibrant flowers, trees that were so vibrant in colorations that I just looked at them in absolute ‘awe’. Everything was of a very high, vibrant illumination of such intense colors and expressions that I was ‘hypnotised’ an decided to enter this portal at which time it ‘closed’ right before I set foot in it. The other one I still remember is a very lucid dream was…hmm, it just left me. I remembered it when I started to write but now it is not even a vague idea, oh well, perhaps it was not important.

            However, most of my recent and past dreams indicate that I am LOST, I am understand where I was, yet I do not recall how I got where I was and I continue to search for a ‘way home’, It is not all frightening, as such, but more discontent.

            Thank you for your most wonderful reply, I believe ‘we’ truly exist in ‘our’ dreams and this may be a way of expressing a possible ‘unlimited-ness’ in our limited speculation of ‘our’ physical existence.

            Be Well Always

          • Patrick Gannon

            And how do we know that these experiences are not just a product of the brain? Yes, I agree we can learn to manipulate our brain to do such things; I practice mindfulness on a regular basis to control my focus and emotions.

        • mewabe,

          I think you hit the nail on the head about so much: being able to let go of fear. Fear manifests in so many ways. The need for control is a huge one. The inability to love others unconditionally. Allowing others to believe differently than we believe.

          Letting go of fear and preconceptions is, in my opinion, the biggest step one can take towards mastery, which opens up new dimensions in us, our world, and the hereafter.

          Love, Blessings and Gratitude,

        • I would tend to agree Mewabe.

        • Patrick Gannon

          It is possible to have OBEs. but we also know now that we can manually stimulate them, and we know that in such cases, (to the best of my knowledge) nobody has ever come out of it and identified items hidden on top of bookcases where someone having such an experience should have seen them.

          See “Frontiers in Human Neuroscience” for example.

          “The fMRI showed a “strong deactivation of the visual cortex” while “activating the left side of several areas associated with kinesthetic imagery,” which includes mental imagery of bodily movement. This is the part of the brain that makes it possible for us to interact with the world. It’s what makes you feel where your body is in relation to the world.”

          “Researchers know that out-of-body experiences can be induced “by brain traumas, sensory deprivation, near-death experiences, dissociative and psychedelic drugs, dehydration, sleep, and electrical stimulation of the brain, among others. It can also be deliberately induced by some.””

          “..scientists believe that these out-of-body experiences are a type of hallucination triggered by some neurological mechanism.”

      • DANiEL JACKson

        Then why are you calling them Alien Beings? It would seem they are just ‘us’ in a more advanced expression. In all the ‘near death’ experiences, not one person has ever reported that they have ‘seen’ Alien Beings. If there are Alien Beings then they would be in that Heavenly Place as ‘we’ do. Yet, perhaps there are more than a singular Heaven, perhaps there are multiple Heavens that each ‘species’ enter after experience limits (in this dimension). Perhaps ‘we’ truly don’t expand God’s potential for expressing ‘unlimited’ possibilities (as it were). How many Heavens may exist (or not exist as the truest statement may presume)?

        Just a thought, I truly don’t like to confine God to any particular limits. In truth God does not exist (at all), that has always been a presumption that ‘we’ have agreed upon as a species, that is, in some way, God exists, yet, to exist only indicates that God is somehow in a limited circumstance, which God is not. To expand God is to expand ‘our’ limitedness.

        Be Well One and All.

    • Francisco Morfi

      Thanks for your response Patrick. The what if game can go so many ways. And it’s like you say, we just “don’t know”. So what if God doesn’t exist, what if it does? What if the bible God is a delusion, what if Neale’s God is a delusion? What if not? We could go on forever and no one can claim to be right or wrong, who’s “in truth”and who’s not. Are we making it all up? Fine with me. Does it matter? Depends on how you look at it.
      This is what I believe:
      I believe God exists.
      I believe God is Energy and Intelligence and the Source of all that is.
      I believe God is unconditionable Love.
      I believe we are a spin-off of God’s Energy.
      I believe people are spiritual beings having a human experience.
      I believe you have a right to your own beliefs as do I.
      I believe there is such a thing as a “knowing” that we can’t prove empirically.
      I believe……… so much more.
      Patrick, I think you’re sincere in what you believe and in what you post. I appreciate that. It’s good for us to question things and not just simply accept them as absolutes. I think that’s a healthy approach in life.
      So what do you say if we continue to post our thoughts and continue sharing how we feel about things within the boundaries of respect and express our gratitude to whoever we wish because we are so blessed by “whomever” “or not” to be able to do this. I have to admit that I really enjoy this exercise of self expression and am grateful to be a part of all there is, and to be “aware” of it all. To me that is a great blessing.
      By the way, I do believe in the afterlife “simply because I do”; I have no clever thoughts or expressions to prove it.
      Thank you. I wish you well Patrick.
      Because I do believe in “That”, I wish you, as they say: God’s speed”.

      • Patrick Gannon

        Thanks for sharing, Francisco. No one can claim to be right or wrong now – but in time, we will learn more. I’m confident that we will confirm authoritatively whether or not consciousness emerges from the brain and whether the sense of self and free will are illusions. It will take some time, and I may not see it in my life, but I expect that we’ll know soon enough.

        You didn’t really address the question of ‘what if’ it turns out that this is all there is. Would this be a good or bad thing for humanity? Would we live better lives given that we don’t get a second chance? Will we make the best of it in our lives and relationships while we are here? Or, would we lead chaotic lives, given that nothing matters? We evolved to this point, and altruism has evolutionary merit, otherwise we wouldn’t have developed it; so I don’t think we would go all crazy. In fact, I think we’d be more sane, working from knowledge rather than beliefs, even if the knowledge is simply acceptance of our own ignorance.

        Can you not see that your list of “I believe” items is a list of things about which you are ignorant? You believe these things because you don’t know them; and you know that you don’t know them. How can this conflict in our brains be good for us?

        • Francisco Morfi

          My answer to the what if was that it’s the same as the I believe. It’s all speculation. What if what I believe is proven to be true at some point in time? Who’s to say to the contrary? You say: “how can this conflict in our brains be good for us? What’s the difference between the what if such and such a thing is not true and I believe such and such a thing to be true? It’s just 2 sides of the same argument. It just depends on what side you’re looking at it from. To me it’s like going around in circles and what it really boils down to is what we’ve convinced ourselves as “a truth”, whether or not it’s proven empirically.
          You think that at some point some things are going to be proven and so do I, but you can only assume this will happen until it does. It’s disguised belief to me.

  • Patrick Gannon

    I don’t really see many real answers to Neale’s question:

    “What if there is no “heaven”? What if there is no “hell”? What if there is no “God”? What if there is no “life” in the “hereafter”? What if there is no “hereafter” at all — no Life After Death, no one and nothing on The Other Side, no “other side” of any kind, and nothing after life on Earth but darkness, emptiness — and not even an awareness of that?”

    This is unequivocally the best question Neale has ever asked here in my opinion. Only a couple people have really tried to answer it. What I see is people saying what they believe, rather than answering the question – what if there is no god, no afterlife and this is it? How does that possibility affect you? Does it make you happy, sad, scared, relieved? Please share.

    It makes me feel relieved.

    • I see those as rhetorical opening remarks, leading to the issues mentioned later—the meaning, purpose, function and result of life. That is, if you read down, where Neale redirects Marko.


      • Patrick Gannon

        Neale, were your questions intended to be rhetorical?

        • Neale may not be aware of your question, as you replied to me, so I received the notification.


    • mewabe

      Have you ever read Krishnamurti? You might be interested. He talks about observing “what is”, as opposed to being controlled by perceptions, expectations and beliefs.

    • OK, I’m curious. Why “relieved”? Please expand on your reply.


    • If there is no God or afterlife the discussion is pretty much over, as well as discussions on other dimensions, angels,parallel Universes etc.

      Most of this discussion rest on a God or invisible intelligent energy behind all physical phenomena. Otherwise discussion over. No fun in that for me.

      A God & afterlife are pretty much instinctual for most people. Those who don’t believe have their discussions elsewhere, I’m not sure what they’d discuss, but let us say your right, no God, no afterlife, nothing would matter or be of much consequence on such a short time table. But living with a God & afterlife can enhance the life in positive ways even if not true, benefits most people and creates more happiness & hope. A much better way to live in my understanding.

      • Awareness

        Thank you Marko 🙂 I enjoyed your input 🙂

        Bless ALL 🙂

      • Patrick Gannon

        Why would the discussion be over? As you said, it is a “what if” question designed to evoke discussion. What if this is all there is? Would we treat each other worse, knowing that there would be no recriminations? Would we treat each other better, knowing this is all we get and we should make the best of it? Doesn’t believing in an afterlife tell us that we get a second chance, so it’s OK to screw it up here? Would we be sad, knowing that we would never see loved ones again?

        We seem to be the only species on the planet that knows of its own mortality, and this may be why we developed religion – to help us face the fear of our own mortality.

      • Francisco Morfi

        I agree with you that there’s a happier ending if we do believe in God, the afterlife…. and in any case, if it weren’t true, there’s really nothing to lose or to be afraid of if it scares some people. I prefer to believe just because it’s a personal conviction based on my feelings. I’ve got no other explanation: I simply feel it. Blessings.

  • Francisco Morfi

    Patrick why does that make you feel relieved? Is there something you’re afraid of beyond this life if there is something beyond?
    Most people probably don’t mention anything because those who are clear on this don’t need an explanation and those who are in doubt or simply don’t believe only want one to refute it, as I think is your case. For your info, those what if questions are to simply open up a discussion and, in my case, I am completely in knowing that God exists (because I exist), am personally convinced that there is an afterlife because just as from our physical state we can’t prove the source that initiated life either (the “beforelife”), it’s undeniable that life is (everywhere we are, look, go….. no denying that). To me it’s just a knowing, it’s something you believe or not. Whatever the case, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t change what is and what is not.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Thank you for sharing your beliefs. You didn’t answer the question. What if your beliefs are wrong and eventually proven wrong? How would that make you feel? Would you be embarrassed at having believed something that turned out to be false?

      Without empirical evidence, we simply cannot know. This “knowing” that people like to refer to could very easily be delusion; we don’t know; and we know that we don’t know.

      It’s not just a case of wanting to refute other’s beliefs; it’s a case of questioning whether those beliefs might be bad for us. Since we know from lack of empirical evidence that we don’t know, if we’re honest, we must admit the possibility of delusion (which the human race has experienced for much of its existence – such as the the earth being flat and the sun going around the earth). It’s very difficult to admit that one might be mistaken, never mind delusional, but the possibility, if not the probability is that this is indeed the case.

      I would be relieved to know there’s no afterlife because I’ve lived a relatively good life and would be very content to know I don’t have to continue further. In particular, learning that there is no god/afterlife would remove any last tiny vestiges of remaining fear that there really is a Bible God – as I find that to be a very frightening proposition.

      We’re playing “what if” here. So what if Bible God is real, and what if it turns out that Neale is pulling people away from the one true God and thereby leading people to perdition? Certainly there are millions of Christians convinced of that very thing. Are they delusional? Why them and not the people here? What empirical evidence does either group have? NONE. We just don’t know. Why lie to ourselves and try to pretend through belief that we do? Is that healthy? I think it is not.

      • I would suggest that you choose your words more carefully. You say, in part, “we must admit the possibility of delusion (which the human race has experienced for much of its existence – such as the the earth being flat and the sun going around the earth)”. (Patrick Gannon)

        Those weren’t delusions. To delude is to deceive. It is a trick of the mind when one deludes oneself. People said that the world was flat because the evidence their equipment (their eyes) produced was a flat horizon. I can’t now find the scientist’s name, but there was once “proof” of the orbits that all the planets followed as they revolved around the Earth.

        What has happened is simply that our tools for detection have improved, and we have gathered more detailed information. Would you be “delusional” if new evidence presented itself, changing your precious scientists’ minds about evolution? No.


        • Patrick Gannon

          No Annie, delusion does not mean deceive – you are confusing “delusional” with “delude.” Look them both up. However I will be happy to clarify my statement if it will make you happy. Once evidence arose that indeed the earth was not flat and not the center of the universe, those continuing to hold to that belief were delusional. Till that time, I suppose one could say, they were simply ignorant.

          The scientist you are looking for is Tycho Brahe who, indeed, came up with a convoluted hypothesis to explain the workings of the solar system that was in opposition to what Copernicus suggested. As we know Galileo settled the matter. This is science working as it is supposed to. A proposal is put forth, and then it is tested to see if it is falsifiable – in this case, Tycho’s hypothesis failed and the science continued to mature and evolve. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, given the process worked exactly as it was supposed to, and delivered to us the explanation we were looking for.

          If new evidence challenged the theory of evolution, such as finding a human fossil in the same strata with dinosaurs, then of course the theory would have to change or be abandoned. With every passing day however, the evidence mounts as predictions based on the theory are confirmed by new evidence being discovered all the time. The person who disproves evolution would win the Nobel Prize – but that possibility is so highly unlikely as to be discarded at this point.

          Annie, are you saying you don’t accept evolution? That would be delusion, such as Dr. Ben Carson, who must have slept through biology, experiences. Carson is the perfect example of a delusional person. That such a person could even be considered for President is frightening to me; as it indicates that many Americans are either incredibly ignorant (which can be fixed with proper education) or psychologically delusional and in need of mental health care.

          As to why there is no new evidence for spirituality – that is an excellent question. I am a very strong supporter of psi experiments. If there’s any chance that this new age consciousness idea is valid, it should be testable – but alas, I read of nothing new in this field, and the results I’ve read about, such as some of Radin’s experiments, are so subjective and weak as to have very little weight.

          You’ve seen me suggest on this forum that Neale and his New Age buddies should try to set up an experiment – get thousands and thousands of people to participate – for example – hundreds of thousands of people watch a video on the internet at a particular time, that puts them in a meditative state and focuses their attention on a random number generator. If there is anything to “manifesting reality” then there should be measurable results from such an experiment. I suspect a lack of interest in such experiments because the Templeton Foundation tried this with prayer and failed miserably. It turned out that people who were told that they were being prayed for actually did worse. The other patients had no measurable statistical effect one way or the other.

          The religionists of course said the test was invalid and didn’t work because it was “testing God,” but you can bet your bottom dollar that if prayer had produced positive results, they would have shouted the results from the roof tops.

  • I like the idea that we keep evolving after we shed the physical & who’s to say that we don’t re-physicalize in the afterlife? Who’s to say there is no death in the hereafter or the thereafter or the thereafter that?

    I also wonder that the general state of consciousness you had during your physical determines the level of evolvement into the next plane.

    In Lisette Larkins books on Advanced ET’s they live for thousands of years, not hundreds but thousands! They don’t have to reincarnate to fulfill their souls mission or what ever you desire to call it, they can live it out in one long lifetime.

    CwG book one says we can actually live forever in the physical. Now we don’t want to live forever in one container of experience, but the book points out that we have the ability to live well beyond are meager 80-100 years.

    • Pamela

      As God tells Neale, this is one of the least evolved planets which means that the challenges we face are pretty tough. But this is good – the tougher the challenge the higher the mastery. In other words, this is an opportunity to fast track towards mastery. Better to get there in 80 to 100 years than for it to take 1,000.
      We’re in the midst of the Storm right now, but how great will it be to re-incarnate into the Calm and to be able to enjoy the beauty and sensations of the physical world without being dominated by that dratted ego?

      • Pamela, I like your attitude! But, if we work hard enough to awaken others, who’s to say we can’t see the Calm in this lifetime?

        Love, Blessings and Gratitude,

      • Just to be sure, the ET’s that live thousands of years are already advanced & enlightened HEB’s. They are already born into enlightened societies.

        This is indeed one of the most primitive planets. But the exciting thing is, we are in transition & hopefully about to have a growth spurt in our evolution & renaissance in due time.

        • Patrick Gannon

          You guys talk about this stuff as though you know it to be true – but you don’t. We don’t even know yet if there are any ETs in the universe, although the odds would certainly support it.

          I agree that we may be about to “endure” an evolutionary spurt. Such spurts tend to take place after great catastrophes and severe reductions in the species; when those that have mutated characteristics that enhance survival, do survive and pass along those genes.

          • Some people are on a frequency where they can see what others can’t. It’s fun to speculate, even scientists do so. We don’t know for sure about many things. But I know what moves us toward joy, enthusiasm increases our enjoyment of life.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Marko, this is a valid response to my question about whether beliefs are good or bad for us. I don’t necessarily buy your argument, but it is a valid argument. Essentially, you’re saying, as I understand it, that if beliefs lead us toward joy, it doesn’t matter that we’re lying to ourselves. This response assumes that the purpose of our lives is to seek joy rather than to seek truth and knowledge, as our primary purpose.

            I would say that once mankind began to seek truth and knowledge, our condition improved. In the old days, for most people, the only way to get joy was in the afterlife. Today some of us can have it here – but can we truly be joyful if we are misleading ourselves, or are we kidding ourselves about being joyful and putting on a false demeanor that hides the uncertainty that must live at the core – because deep down, given the lack of any evidence, we know that we don’t know; so many of us cover up our ignorance with beliefs. The belief is supposed to bring us joy, but can it really do so if it’s still hiding the truth?

            Is it better to lie to ourselves, or to face the truth of our collective ignorance? I vote for truth.

          • Who’s to say two contradictory truths can’t exist at the same time & we get to choose what truth that works for us? I see things from the point of we create our own interior reality as well as influence to some degree our outer reality.

            What ever belief you hold becomes truth for you. I’m not here to convince you of the validity of say the LOA Law of attraction, we all get to choose the truths that work for us. See Neale’s latest blog on truth.

      • DANiEL JACKson

        Now Pamela, God may have said things, yet, it is not an accurate statement to which you say “God tells Neale”. Neale imagines God to saying such, it is not wise to announce to anyone that God ‘told’ me such and such. Also, to express that a person can quote God in limited perception would assume that that person may understand God’s words (if any) without interpretation of such. I don’t doubt that God gave Neale a communication (as such) but it was up to Neale to comprehend such communications and translate it to a book(s). Yet, overall, why not? God may truly speak to everyone. Yet, God may have stated, “please, don’t say I said anything”, it just may be an imaginative response to stimuli of physical essences.

        Be Well

        • Pamela

          Point taken Daniel.

          But isn’t this the case of all scripture – it is transcribed through the screen of human experience, language and culture and within the restraints of time and space? For example, the word Sin had a differenct meaning to the Jews of the New Testament than to us in the 21st century.
          I think we have to rely on our intuition which does not have these limitations,

          • DANiEL JACKson

            Exactly, It is in ‘our’ interpretation of what may be stated or said. Everyone has ‘their’ own interpretation of the Bible, God’s words, Jesus’s words and Buddha’s words (as well as all other prophets, teachers, disciples (or whatever may describe such). Anyone who may interpret the Bible, CWG, and so many other books as however they ‘believe’ is what it may be truly stating may not be an accurate presumption. How can an individual truly understand words or speech of another person’s thoughts as truly what ‘they’ might be expressing.

            It would be, almost, an impossibility to truly visualize the picture those words are painting without understanding the purpose and process those ‘words/speech’ first came to one’s thoughts. As wonderful as CWG ‘is’, it is not the ultimate ‘last’ word in which it seems to state. I have read other books of a higher understanding of God, Jesus and Masters (as one might call them) and found them to be just as informative as the Bible, CWG, etc. It remains the perception and interpretations of the ‘individual’ (that which is in-the-visible, or physical form) to extrapolate these ‘words/speech’ as it may pertain to one’s own understandings, nothing more.

            Neale’s books are a vast improvement over archaic belief structures, to be sure. It just ‘had to be’ stated. I know this to be true, for, I also (as egotistical as this may sound) was in the process of writing a very similar book at the time. Yet, I may add, I probably would not have come up with such a masterpiece of workmanship in the most wonderful platform as ‘how’ it was written, not what was written. I personally, love the premise of the books. I already knew what to write but I didn’t know how to write such a series. I sincerely endorse Neale’s books as a work of art, as I stated a ‘masterpiece’ of layout and presentation. I just ‘sings’ like a wonderful melody that ‘rings’ as a truth that many cannot deny.

            One thing about the Bible, that many do not take into consideration is that at the time ‘it’ was written, the words that were written did not (as you stated) interpret as ‘we’ understand them today. One thing that stands out, at this moment, was the statement in the Bible that Jesus said (paraphrasing) “To get to heaven is as a camel going through an ‘eye of a needle’. Now to understand that at the time of jesus, the ‘eye of the needle’ was an style of an archway that looked like that of a ‘needle’s eye’ but was large enough to allow a full grown camel to easily enter that entrance way. In other words (as it were) Jesus said ‘getting to Heaven is as easy as pie” (as ‘we’ would say today). not the opposite. yet, ‘we’ continue to ‘make things difficult’ for ourselves. Many choose to believe that ‘heaven’ is a most difficult place to enter, to be judged, how ‘good’ were ‘we’? so many other limiting processes and interpretations. I just sit back and place my hands on my head and say (to myself) “oy vey”, when are ‘we’ going to ‘grow up’? We are just children running around telling stories about the ‘boogeyman’ and the is no place to hide. Dad’s not home yet, ‘we just run without direction all over the place looking for a place to ‘feel comfortable and confident’ while Mom & Dad are away (the Father/Mother God).

            apologies, this became longer than I attended it to be.

            I believe I made my point, so, my friend…
            Be Well and Enjoy every moment.

          • Pamela

            Interesting that you should mention the wealthy young man. When he approaches Jesus, the gospel writer says Jesus loved him. The young man wants to follow Jesus, he has kept to all the Laws and tried to live a good life. Jesus tells him that before he can do this he must unburden himself of his material possessions. It has been assumed that Jesus tells us to be poor in order to find heaven, but along with the Buddha, I believe he is saying that attachment to the material world is an obstacle to enlightenment. This theme is picked up in CwG and evolving revolution where the rich, not being prepared to share has caused untold poverty and suffering.

            Are we too, like the young man that Jesus loved? We really want to get it right and are trying our hardest, but are still attached to more than our fair share of material possessions. On a world scale, with a lot less interest in getting it right, there are the politicians, supported by the banks and multinationals, imposing “austerity measures” with absolutely no understanding of the distress they cause.

            Neale’s already written his book, but if you sit in the silence and find the God within, like God in your name, perhaps do Neale’s meditation where he shows us how to get our own conversation with God going, I am sure you will find your book.

            From PamELa to DaniEL, Namaste

          • DANiEL JACKson

            Thank you PamELa, words well spoken (er..written). However, I do meditate constantly, even when I am working or walking, there is no limit to ‘how’ and ‘when’ may do such. Today, I learned one important ‘thing’, that God (for lack of a proper name) does not have ’emotions’, that God does not get ’emotionally’ involved with ‘us’. It finally makes sense, why God does not interfere with ‘our’ free will and personal creations. I now understand that God, does not get involved with ‘our’ petty physical accomplishments, they are not truly important (to Him/Her/It). What is important is the value ‘we’ place on ‘our’ immortality.

            Do ‘we’ respect the process of evolving to become as ‘high’ in our spirit as ‘we’ may be able to? It is a difficult task to perform when everything is available to ‘us’, ‘we’ try to possess ‘things’ which have never been ‘ours’ to possess.

            Have you ever wondered why, so many televised ‘evangelists’ ask for donations and such? Do you believe that they truly desire to ‘go to heaven’? It would seem not, they have the power, the money, the houses, cars, airplanes, acknowledgement, followers, etc. that ‘gives’ them a ‘power’ that cannot be denied. They, in fact, do not desire to ‘give up’ the physical life for they are already Gods in this world. They are ‘scared stiff’ at the thought of ‘dying’ and going to heaven, for once in heaven, they will not have the power, the money, the praise, etc. they now have. They will become as ‘all’ others and not have one ‘thing’ to their name. processions, Power, Money, Servants, Body Guards, Vehicles, etc. will never travel the path to heaven, so they remain afraid to die. Not that they fear Hell and Damnation as much as they ‘fear’ being without those most, precious ‘things’.

            Just a thought
            Be Well PamELa

            My name is DANiEL JACKson, take the small letters and place them together and you will see: i son
            surprisingly, no one that I know of has caught on to the actual meaning of that name.

            Thank you for your reply, words well worth understanding.

          • Pamela

            Don’t you just love this Kabalistic interpretation of the importance of names? I’ve stopped using the shortened form of my name, Pam, because it only describes the half of who I am.

            I am so with you with the televised evangelists. I find any religion that manipulates their scriptures to their advantage, or seeks to have power over their congregation, without any understanding of the underlying wisdom, a railroad to disaster. Come to that, I automatically reject the sites on the internet that say they have chanelled wisdom and then charge huge amounts for you to sign up,

            You are fortunate that meditation comes so easily to you, I need guided meditations and only really get to my true essence when I am praying.


          • DANiEL JACKson

            Once more, much appreciations for such wonderful ‘words’, my friend. it is well received. I may interject a thought here, Meditation is not actually what it may imply. To speak directly to God (as good a name as any other) is to just ‘speak to God’. I would suggest trying to ‘speak’ directly to God as Father to Child, if this illustration expresses such, or just as “One on One”, there is truly nothing one may not converse about. God ‘loves’ a good ‘chat’ now and again. To understand that God requires ‘us’ to be ‘humble’ before Him/Her is not to truly understand that God has never placed ‘limits’ on ‘our’ connection to, what may be described, the ‘Source’.

            I don’t actually ‘meditate’ in the sense of being prepared to delve into a constructive (within parameters, as it were), it is just a ‘conversation, a wonderful ‘chat’ with God. Just allow the thoughts and words to ‘flow’ as free as one may speak to a very close friend. God is, and has always been, your friend.

            I hope this may help in some small way.
            Once again, I enjoy your words and appreciate your response.

            Be Wonderful to yourself (in all forms).

      • Patrick Gannon

        What if Neale is delusional? What if he was just talking to himself instead of talking to God? That is far and away the most probable occurrence.

        • Francisco Morfi

          Neale himself questioned that, but came to accept it for himself, not for others, that he’s not. Can you prove otherwise? I think you’rr limited here to the what if, as is the case with all of us.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, of course I can’t prove he didn’t imagine his experience, but he’s the one making the claim. As I see it the burden of proof is on him. Just because Neale accepted it for himself, does not mean he wasn’t delusional. Were Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Charlie Manson delusional? They believed their experiences every bit as much as Neale does (or appears to).

    • Patrick Gannon

      Liking the idea of something doesn’t make it true. I too like the idea of the ONEness of God; but we simply don’t know what happens after we die.

      Are we physical now? The possibility exists that all of this physical matter reality is simply an illusion. Evidence is growing that free will and the sense of self-awareness are illusions.

      CwG’s assertion that humans were designed to live forever is completely unsupported by any empirical evidence that I’m aware of. I thought that discussion was oddly out of place in Neale’s books. When trying to overcome fear of physical death, why at the same time, hold out the carrot of eternal physical life? It made no sense to me.

      We may figure out a way to live forever on our own, by perhaps one day transferring the workings of the brain – including the illusion (if such be the case) of free will and self awareness – into computer hardware. There is no evolutionary evidence I’m aware of that indicates our bodies evolved (they weren’t designed), to live forever – though we are in fact increasing our life spans as a result of technical advances in health care, etc.

      • You state, in part, “Evidence is growing that free will and the sense of self-awareness are illusions.” (Patrick Gannon)

        What evidence? Evidence shown by whom? What process(es) were used to produce this evidence?


        • Patrick Gannon

          Annie there have been a number of developments in this field. I don’t have time right now to go and look up sources, and you can’t post links here anyway, so you’re going to have to do your own research. There are repeatable experiments that indicate that the brain makes decisions before the conscious self is aware of having made decisions – in some cases, as much as 10 seconds prior to conscious awareness, but usually about 3/4 of a second. Google, “experiment shows brain makes decisions before awareness.”

          We’ve learned that certain sections of the brain are more involved than others in self awareness and if these sections are injured, we lose this capacity. Read “Consciousness and the Social Brain,” by Graziano to learn about some of the latest theories explaining awareness. Basically, just keep up with the current news. Visit “SpaceDaily” and sign up for some of their regular publications and you can stay on top of the latest science news and developments.

          Most people are pitifully unaware of what is going on in the real world.

          • For someone who always wants to know sources, you let yourself off the hook a lot when asked for them. They don’t have to be links. Names, dates, article or book titles all work.


          • Patrick Gannon

            Michio Kaku – Future of the Mind
            Sam Harris – Free Will & The Moral Landscape
            Michael Graziano – Consciousness and the Social Brain
            Richard Dawkins – The Selfish Gene

            The study I recently discussed with Marko:

            “Shift toward prior knowledge confers a perceptual advantage in early psychosis and psychosis-prone healthy individuals” Proceedings of the National Academy of Science of the USA.

            There are a number of articles and studies about the brain making decisions before the consciousness is aware of it and some of the books above refer to some of that research. Here is just one:

            “Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide”” Exploring the Mind

            That will get you started.

  • Awareness

    I enjoyed the following message from “Heavenletter #5441 Blossoming Year of the Heart, October 17, 2015” and decided to share here:

    “God said:

    Grades at school, test scores, accomplishments, appearances, cleverness, upmanship, smoothness of one kind or another have uprooted the heart, patted the heart disrespectfully on the head as if your heart were an unruly child, made the heart just sit there quietly on a wooden chair and behave and do as it is told. The good heart, smiled at every now and then, patted on the head in public – of course, goodness and mercy are okay now and then on occasion but yet, intolerably, the heart is often set aside in board rooms, ball rooms, and in private homes. The Human Heart has been undermined and has not been given its due, not really, perhaps given lip service, let out properly only when no one is looking.

    The heart of the matter has, too often, not been attributed, acknowledged, or honored for its Truth and Magnificence. In novels, yes, perhaps in oratory, yet for any heart to sit waiting for its debut is, well, a little shady. Too much of life in the world has been hidden as if the heart were, well, déclassé.

    Coming up now, like spring, is the blossoming Year of the Heart, and, from now on, this is how it will be. Like hyacinth bulbs from the rich ground that have been waiting, love is coming up. Hearts all over the world are rising naturally and triumphantly, breathtakingly beautiful, seen by all the world in ardor, recognized by all. This is it, the longed-for Revival of Love on Earth. Hear the drums. Love will be okayed. Love will sing from the rafters. Hearts will sing to beat the band. Birds will lead the chorus.

    How can My beautiful children be kept cut off from their hearts and freedom any longer? There is an uprising of love which will no longer be upturned. No longer will love be restrained. This baby is being born full-fledged, and the world will never be the same again. It will be incapable of returning to the old cold past.

    This is what everyone has been waiting for. Even the rulers of profit at any cost have been waiting for this long-awaited time of Love on Earth and Peace for All, an enlivened enlightened world where Love and Kindness are King and all voices sing-out love for All the World to hear.

    Why would the world have had such subterranean fear of a Happy-Go Lucky Life without Fear and Trepidation? Fear and trepidation are on the descendant. Love and joy are on the Ascendant.

    This is the Year of the Joining of Hearts and Hands. This is the Year of Laughter! This is the year where Life on Earth finally makes sense. It takes the Human Heart to make sense. This is the Year of Restoring and Honoring the Heart. Now the Human Heart no longer has to wait for midnight.

    Love has come out. Love is heralding itself.

    Love is love is love is love. Joy and Peace are here for all time. Love is Ruling Life. Love is All Over. Love rules without ruling. Love is. Love rules the world, and love will take you over, spin you around, and the you you thought you were and thought you were supposed to be on Earth subsides. The love you are arises never to be silenced again. Love sings out, and the world is beautiful and shines forth.

    God in Human Beings is now visible. This is the Declaration of Love. Signed by all hearts, the deed is done. Love has taken over the world. Life is on a good note. Wait until you see the flourishing of All Life on Earth, how natural it is, how lovely. Now, drink of it deeply. All years are named the Year of Love from now on. Your very bones know it. The very soil and air know it. There is no returning to the past. The Spring of your Lifetime has come.” 🙂

    Bless ALL 🙂

    • Patrick Gannon

      What does this have to do with the topic of conversation?

      • Kristen

        Oops…do these threads have topics?

        • Patrick Gannon

          Neale’s forum has a column, and he asks us to discuss the content of his columns. Yes threads can go off on tangents, but copy/pasting content with no connection to Neale’s original column, said content having been written by another person and posted on another web page, is unseemly to me; and if it was my forum, I’d delete those posts unless some connection was provided to the original topic. A well run forum would be managed like that.

          • Kristen

            Hi, I agree. I am perplexed by the person who types as Awareness, they have always quoted their channelled entity forever in here, Its really sad as I do feel they are completely brainwashed. Although when pushed he/she will type as themself. A few years ago this site was more a book club, full of quotes from other books and authors, with recommendations of reading material. Neale changed that as obviously he is trying to promote his own books, but I would go further and not allow lengthy quotes, and I would have banned me long ago but Neale knows I am in here to save souls (one last week) when Christians are in here believing CwG is the Biblical God. An original CwG teaching is there are two sides to every story, and we should listen to both sides, so I guess he allows be to be a troll on those grounds!
            The entire word conversation, is people conversing freely, and this site is called Global Conversation. It is complete human nature to steer any conversation to a topic they find more interesting once they have had their say on the original topic. Whether verbally or in writing. That is all that you see in here after the first few days…for me personally its just nothingness babble as Im all argued out! New Age and religious stuff was my studies for so many years, its boring to discuss as its just now who I am, people who are new to something are the ones who talk about it, like born again Christians, when something is just a part of people there is no need to share or talk about it (whether its religion, spirituality, disabilities, medical conditions, faith, beliefs, abuse memories, PTSD etc). But truly spiritual & learned people know everything is entwined, every topic will be related to everything else, everyone is a byproduct of their experiences, beliefs and what they ‘know’ etc. Mewabe and I talk crock as we are at similar journey stages, past the seriousness and into the cores and outer layers of matters, at this level people process the deep stuff and learn internally, becoming a very light person on the outside. To explain things properly takes too long. Its a bit like becoming a normal person again, after years of seriousness and depth, and its very refreshing.
            But my Teacher/Guide sends me in here every now and then to work (which I know you wont believe, and thats ok!), so here I am…,well today anyway!
            Take care, K

      • Awareness

        All years are named the Year of Love from now on” – “Heavenletter #5441 Blossoming Year of the Heart” 🙂

        The way I observe it, the “ultimate aim” of Neale Donald Walsch is to bring forth a world where every choice and action by humanity is sponsored by LOVE instead of fear 🙂 Therefore given my perception of Neale’s “ultimate aim”, I felt it made sense to post the “Heavenletter #5441” message 🙂

        By the way, I found a very interesting interview by Alexandra Meadors with Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) on youtube titled “Cosmic Awareness – The Same Force Who Spoke Through Edgar Cayce! Part 1 September 27, 2015) 🙂 The video is in two parts (I highly recommend you watch it) 🙂

        In the video (you do not have to believe it ofcourse), “You will hear information on Pope Francis, The Vatican, the ET’s behind the Vatican, the US Government, politicians and their alliances, timelines, the black arts, Ratzinger, China, Russia, the United States, Syria, and the role they are playing in the unfolding of this new world. They also discuss Wave X and its ultimate effects on the planet. You definitely don’t want to miss this one!” – “Galactic Connection” 🙂

        Bless ALL 🙂

        • Patrick Gannon

          “the ETs behind the Vatican”!!!? My goodness. No I wouldn’t want to miss that, however I may have to get Kristin to send me a new avant-garde tinfoil hat before I watch something like that. I’ve fried so many brain cells with bourbon, that I have to exercise care with the few I have left.

          I see that this is Berlinghof, but he was deposed and Michelle is the new Cosmic Awareness, right? So why should we give Berlinghof any credibility, given he was tossed out by the originators of this goofy stuff?
          I feel like I’m discussing Pokemon with my son when he was about 10. LOL.

          Ah jeez, I may listen to it, just to see what people can bring themselves to believe in without a shred of evidence. Virgin births, walking on water, physical resurrections, aliens in the Vatican, Wave X’s and so forth. Maybe it was really Wave X that hit the Pentagon on 9/11.

          The post still isn’t pertinent to the specific “what if” topic/question that Neale proposed, but staying on topic is a challenge for some, I suppose.

          • Kristen

            Im incredibly confused….first Mewabe suggests you may make us tinfoil hats, then you are on strike so he decides to make them, mine arrives from Walmart, and now Im the distributor!!!??? BUT whomever channels as The Awareness, and whomever receives the channelled information certainly needs a full set! Its 90% crock!!! So I guess you/me/we/mewabe should throw in a few for whomever writes in here as Awareness. What the heck, and Neale too!!
            Yup, just to pee you off, its definately a challenge for some to stay on topic. At least this thread evolution into warbled rubbish is better than the usual American gun laws progression. At least Mewabe and I have admitted to dementia. And I went to Neil Diamond last night, in case you need more evidence.
            Input on Pokemon anyone??? Btw us semi sane parents avoided those discussions, although we probably have 40000 cards. Guess the bourbon did a true frying job!!
            Again I ask, do these threads have topics? Never knew that, oops, my bad!

          • Awareness

            Here is Will Berlinghof’s (and his wife) response regarding the rainbow-phoenix website and Cosmic Awareness Communications (CAC) website:

            “Why Another Cosmic Awareness Website?

            In answer to some queries we have received as to why there is a second site that provides access to Cosmic Awareness, here is our answer:

            Hello Reader

            Thank you for your email. As to your question about the two organisations, I want to simply say that I am a free-lance channeller receiving the Cosmic Awareness energies. I am not, nor is Cosmic Awareness, chained to Cosmic Awareness Communications. It has been, and will continue to be, an organisation that has as its purpose the dissemination of Cosmic Awareness channelings. It will continue to present the CA material in its newsletter which has been the way that it has carried out its important role over the last forty years.

            However, recently with the shifts in the energies, my wife Callista and I felt that there was a need to make the energies of Cosmic Awareness more accessible and immediate to those who are drawn to the energies of Cosmic Awareness. Hence when certain factors fell into place, we decided to expand our Rainbow Phoenix website so it would be more interactive with an audience of seekers who wished to have a more immediate experience of CA. It is our hope that by providing this more immediate experience, individuals will discover their own inner being in a much more pertinent and relevant way. We are also interested in creating a community of kindred souls who are here at this time to play their parts in the evolution of Mother Earth and Humanity. We feel our organisation, through our website, will help to create this global community in a way that CAC is not doing. Do not get us wrong – CAC is a fine organisation and I will continue at this time to channel for their organisation. But I will also be doing more current and accessible readings for our own website which will give, we hope, the individuals coming to our site a more “real-time” experience of the Divine Consciousness which is Cosmic Awareness.

            As to your question about the CAC archives, this is a matter you will have to address with CAC. We at Rainbow Phoenix will not be distributing any archival material that is the intellectual property of CAC. We will only be dealing with materials that Will has channelled for Rainbow Phoenix since its inception last year. There is, of course, a wealth of material throughout the CAC archives that should still be available to you as a CAC member. Again, this is something you will have to address with Vikki and the CAC organisation. I am sure they will honour their agreements with their members as to the availability of archived material.

            Hope this answers your questions.

            in light and service

            Will and Callista” 🙂

            So as Will and Callista state above, Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) is not limited to one interpreter. Everyone can channel Cosmic Awareness if they choose to including the interpreter for the organisation “Cosmic Awareness Communications (CAC)” whose name is Michelle 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Everyone can channel Cosmic Awareness if they choose to..” So how is one to know a legitimate channel from a hocus pocus channel? How is one to explain one channel talking about love and harmony and another talking about how wonderful Russia is, and how awful the US is?

            It might be interesting to hear what the original CAC has to say. Sounds like they agreed not to trash each other, but had a serious falling out. I’m guessing Berlinghof wanted a bigger cut.

            I’m actually about halfway through that ridiculous video. A couple notes so far –

            Yes, the words that we should not believe anything come out of Berlinghof’s mouth, but his threshold for evidence is very low and totally subjective. Looking at coincidences in our lives and attributing these to Cosmic Awareness or Wave X or any other kind of woo woo is not evidence. I know one of these people. She gets lucky and pulls into an available parking slot and credits the LOA or some other foolishness, while not noticing the many times this doesn’t happen; and fails to notice that statistically, we all have about the same set of coincidences.

            I almost spurted coffee out my nose laughing at the idea that these naughty beings took Alexandra’s computer down. She should be in IT.

            The “we’re being duped” story is a larger version of the Garden of Eden myth.

            They seem to put each other to sleep, so they spar for air time in order to stay awake. Their body language gives away boredom with each other. They both know they are spouting nonsense for the purpose of marketing programs for money.

            BS Alert! BS Alert! We’re supposed to have 12 strands of DNA? No, I’m afraid this illustrates a lack of understanding about DNA. It’s a “double helix” because we have male and female DNA that combines to form a new individual. How do you split up our DNA 12 ways when creating a child? It doesn’t work. This is pure nonsense. I did a little research and can find no serious scientific support for this. New Agers are selling programs to teach people how to restore the 10 missing strands of DNA. Anyone stupid enough to send their money for such things deserves to lose it – but if they belong to a family, they are robbing their family.

            The experiment, in which we were “duped” ended on Dec 21, 2012. Yeah, there’s been a wave of change in the world since that time. NOT; but it’s a good way to weave that new age failure into the mesh of nonsense in order to explain why nothing happened.

            So these beings are not happy that the experiment ended and Wave X is here. Alexandra predicts catastrophe in California. Well big whoop. So do I. The northwest is overdue for a disastrous earthquake and tsunami; anyone following the science could make that prediction. She’s not specific like your fake Dr. Atkins though. Smart girl.

            I don’t know if I can watch any more. My “stupid” meter has been pegged to the edge. I’m really trying to figure out if it’s worth the effort of trying to inject logic and reason into this nonsense, when part of me says that if you are stupid enough to believe this and send money for programs and so forth, then you deserve to lose your money.

          • Awareness

            You will know if a channel reflects “YOUR truth” if you are uplifted and empowered by the information ) This takes us back to the HEART 🙂 Your HEART will let you know 🙂 Listen to your HEART with integrity 🙂

            I do not see “boredom” in the interview 🙂 Instead I see that she is interested in the information given by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) through Will Berlinghof 🙂

            Regarding “DNA” I recommend you listen to the youtube video titled “Bashar 12 strand DNA and Living Longer Lives” (again I remind you since you always seem to forget, you do not have to believe) 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Oh stop with that “you do not have to believe” nonsense. There’s no need to keep repeating that. I have no evidence to support any of this nonsense, so of course I don’t believe it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “You will know if a channel reflects “YOUR truth” if you are uplifted and empowered by the information.” That’s a response I’ve heard before. If something makes you feel good, then believe it. The problem with this is that “my truth” may not be “the truth,” and probably isn’t. The older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize I don’t know. Once upon a time, I was uplifted and empowered by the transubstantiation of Jesus into a wafer of bread. That was “my truth” then, and I felt it in my heart when I was too ignorant to know better.

            I’ve already researched the 12 strand DNA thing enough to know it’s nonsense. If you want to persuade me, get a real scientist, preferably a microbiologist. It turns out that “Bashar” is another being channeled by Darryl Anka. Man what a business this is. What happened to the good old fashioned palm readers and crystal ball fortune tellers? Now we have all these dudes “channeling” beings from other dimensions and so forth. NO, I am not going to listen to another charlatan stealing from foolish, ignorant people. If you want to tell me about 12 strand DNA, you find a real scientist. Till then – you’re spreading horse crap all over the floor.

          • Awareness

            “Patrick Gannon” wrote: “NO, I am not going to listen to another charlatan stealing from foolish, ignorant people.”

            Caught you again, you jumped to conclusions without even listening to the video in the first place 🙂 I will transcribe just a little bit of what BASHAR said below:

            The human body cannot contain 12 strands of physical DNA” by BASHAR 🙂

            Do you see it? If you wish to hear the rest of what BASHAR said about DNA, I will let you do it for yourself 🙂

            Don’t jump to conclusions without finding out 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Please give me a brief overview so I don’t have to watch the video. I’m still trying to find time to finish up Berlinghof’s video. Make me interested enough to watch it.

          • Awareness

            You have no excuse 🙂 Take responsibility for your search for “truth” 🙂 I do not care whether you are “interested” or not 🙂 I need nothing from you 🙂 All this discussion with you was merely a response to your questions and not coming from a need for you to develop “interest” in anything 🙂 Simply be happy 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thanks for that lack of consideration. Very thoughtful of you.

            Watched some more of the Berlinghof thing today. He’s channeling now. I find that if I put the speed on 2.0, I can actually stay focused on it. His intentionally dull, slow speaking voice puts me to sleep. He pumps out a lot of words, most of which are just fill time and space with fluff.

            OK, so, I’ve learned today that the Pope came to remind the Congress that at least four groups of aliens are really in charge and they don’t want things changing. These aliens are in control of, or in cahoots with the Royal Family, the Vatican, the Illuminati and the New World Power. My goodness; this is almost as good as an L.Ron Hubbard book.

            He chats a bit about politics – interesting that a being from so far away should take so much interest in our political system. At least unlike his predecessor, he hasn’t taken a lot of interest yet in what we do without our clothes on.

            I agree with some of what he says about how politicians become corrupt, but no special “cosmic awareness” is needed to figure that out! This is a basic sales technique; you get people nodding up and down in agreement with you.

            He really, really hates the Vatican. I sympathize but cannot buy off on all the black magic and sacrificial nonsense. The Vatican is a business. It’s an old, corrupt organization that doles out fear and then peddles a cure; really no different from a corporation that knowingly sells an addictive product that they know kills people or makes them sick. I hope one day they are regulated out of business.

            Reptilian shape shifter? I guess we’re back to L. Ron Hubbard’s science fiction. Man where does this guy get his shrooms? So if I have this right, the pope reports to the Reptilians who report to the Orions who report to the Arkons (spelling?). This story keeps getting better. OK, end of part 1.

            Berlinghof really likes the word “that” for some reason – as though he thinks talking that way gives his words extra weight. I find it annoying.
            That it must be said, I need a drink after that…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Listened to a little more Berlinghof today.

            So, on Dec 21, 2012, Wave X began, and it was supposed to hit us Sept 28, with a lot of power, possibly disrupting satellites according to Berlinghof. I’m in the satellite business, and I am not aware of any anomalies in or around that day. If there had been any such problems on any GEO satellite around earth, I would have surely been informed by one or more publications, not to mention my own clients. Nothing happened. Just like Atkins, another FAIL.

            Supposedly this Wave X thing is some greater frequency riding along with gamma rays – one of the most deadly things we know of, if one is in close proximity to such a burst. I can find nothing in my searches indicating that there were any significant peaks in gamma ray detection at that time. Berlinghof has read a little bit about what they are, and is relying on most people not having a clue; which is a safe assumption unfortunately. He uses as evidence, people complaining of digestive problems, stress, anxiety, etc.. That’s ridiculous. He would need to have access to some kind of stats that indicate that there is a higher rate of complaints for those symptoms at health care systems, etc.; but it’s just made up nonsense.

            Ok, moving on, now the moon is a hollowed out spacecraft. Once again we are in La La Land. The moon is not hollow. There is a thin crust and a less dense core than the earth, but in order for it to follow the particular orbit that it is in, it must have certain characteristics, including a certain weight distribution, otherwise it wouldn’t be there. This is really old nonsense – I didn’t realize this was still circulating.

            Now the moon causes lunacy. No it doesn’t. Studies have been made and there is no correlation, though the moon does affect some animals.

            He doesn’t fully understand the equinox. The planet is always tilted on it’s axis. All an equinox marks is when hours of sunlight begin to increase or decrease – twice a year as the earth goes around the sun and passes the plane of the equator. There’s no other significance from a gravitational standpoint. It’s just a marker; a reliable date ancients could use to plan for the future. There’s no special energy or alignment that has any significance during those times.

            Whoa – OK, there were once factions on moons around Saturn that beamed energy, reflected from the moon to earth as part of an inter-alien scuffle.. (Hmm, why would they have to reflect it off the moon instead of just beaming it at earth?).. and following some sort of conflict, the moon is now controlled by one or the other of these alien factions that currently resides within the moon. Oh, this just keeps getting better…

            Now Alexandra thinks that an absence of contrails has some significance for this big event, and Berlinghof humors her. My dad is a meteorologist. He would get a chuckle out of this. It all has to do with fronts and condensation based on temperature differences; but middle school science was probably not her forte.

            And math is not Berlinghof’s forte. The wave that began on Dec. 21, 2012 is delivering exponential affects. Let’s say that one person was “affected” on Dec. 21, and two people on Dec. 22, and 4 people on Dec 23… that is exponential growth. Do you know how many people would be affected by now? 1.2338405969e+176 Trust me, that’s all of us and a few other planets as well.

            Now Putin is aligned with one of the factions and he was slapped down for messing with the oligarchs. Well that explains everything.

            I’m in the middle of his explanation for how the powers that be are creating all the havoc in the middle east, and enough is enough. I’ll try to pick it up another day. My BS meter can only handle being pegged to the pin for so long.

  • Divergent12

    Hi Neale
    I have heard about you 3 years ago from my aunt. She lives her life according to CWG book. At that point i called her crazy like everybody else. But this year on June i have met her again afrer little bit of conversation i have decided to read your books. I was not sure i will like them but i just wanted to give a try. I startes the first book at 8:00 pm at night and couldnt put it back. It keept me awake whole night and i finished next day at 11:00pm. It was one of those magical moments. I didnt feel i needed a sleep. I have read all the 3 books now i am reading The Conversation with Humanity series.
    Ideas on the book i found them not new but affirming that i was not alone thinking that way. I have always felt that there is more to this life other than just surviving. Theye should be reason for me to be here. Thank you for sharing it.
    I am studying early childhood education. Hopefully i will be able to make a change through my teaching by allowing them to explore their trueselves instead of traching them accoriding to the mold that was created.

    • Awareness

      Thank you for sharing your wonderful experience of “Conversations with God” 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

    • NealeDonaldWalsch

      Thank you for your sharing here, my friend. I am only grateful if something I have had the opportunity to do, with the grace of God, has brought benefit to your life. If you are studying early childhood education you may be interested in a just-released title: “Conversations with God for Parents: Sharing the messages with children.” It is available at at this link:

      • Patrick Gannon

        How about asking people here to answer your question… What if there is no God, no afterlife? Very few have actually addressed that question.

        • Awareness

          LOVE = God = Life = Energy 🙂

          Energy cannot be destroyed (even science will tell you that) 🙂

          Since we are Energy, I see the question as “What if there is no Energy?” What if Life has no future? The same as “What if Energy has no future?” And that is impossible since Energy cannot be destroyed. The way I perceive it, the “afterlife” is simply Energy (US) in “another” form 🙂 Therefore, Energy = GOD = Life = LOVE is forever 🙂

          Therefore, If you ask “What if there is no God?” then it is the same as saying “What if there is no LIFE?” (Neale Donald Walsch agrees that GOD is LIFE and GOD is Energy). Or “What if there is no Energy?”. Impossible. Again Energy cannot NOT exist. Energy cannot be destroyed 🙂

          Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            OK, (and thanks for actually participating with words of your own that are pertinent to the discussion!), but I think the question really revolves around what does it mean if our consciousness, or sense of self, our memories, experiences, etc. simply end?

            Some people propose that we are made of something – let’s call it consciousness – that organizes and provides our identity, or our individuation to use Neale’s term, and they propose that when we pass away that consciousness joins the whole, but loses it’s individuality. All that defines our “self” dissolves forever, even though the “particles” (for lack of a better word) of “consciousness” continue as part of the whole. This, to me, is what you seem to be proposing.

            To me this is still the same question. If we were to know that when we die, our self-awareness, consciousness, memories, all that defines us as unique individuals, was to dissolve away – this really isn’t any different from all our atoms rejoining the cosmos – and you are correct; that is just mass that will return to a state of energy at some point.

            I can live with your terms – defining God as all energy is fine, if you keep to that narrow definition. I note that you did not include intelligence or awareness which turns God into a deity as I understand that word. When I flip the switch to turn on the lights, the electrons used to perform that task do not remain together as an individuated unit – they go off into the cosmos. So the question still remains – what if that’s how it works for us? What if for us, there is no afterlife as individuated, conscious units with memories, experiences, intelligence, or anything else? You still won’t get to see your loved ones in the afterlife with this concept of God. Would knowing this, cause us to treat each other better or worse? Would knowing that our conscious “self” only exists for the short time we’re here make us enjoy what we have more, or would it fill us with despair? The idea of a second chance is not an option in this scenario.

          • Awareness

            In “death” our “individual” sense of SELF as “limited” human beings comes to an end yes. Our sense of identity as “limited” human beings ends yes. But our awareness never ends 🙂 It becomes even greater 🙂 We become aware that it was all an “illusion” 🙂 Knowing that we are eternal is a joyful understanding and there is no room for “despair” there 🙂

            In “death” we become more of who we truly are which is the whole (ALL That Is) 🙂 We become aware that there was only ONE in the first place. Our individual self as you describe it simply comes to realise itself as the ONE Energy = GOD = LIFE = LOVE 🙂 We realise then that there was ONLY ONE Energy in the first place 🙂 We realise in “death” that our perceived “individual” selves was simply an “illusion”, an “illusion” created by us to know our true ONE Energy SELF from many different viewpoints 🙂 We will not disappear forever, for that is simply impossible 🙂 This Aware Energy cannot be destroyed. This Energy of Awareness can never cease to exist 🙂 Knowing ourselves as this ONE Energy Awareness will simply fill us with LOVE for ONE another 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for sharing your beliefs. You, like Neale, really shouldn’t talk in such absolutes, because you do not know what happens when you die. None of us do. There’s a very good chance, a probable rather than possible chance, I think, that when the lights go out, they stay out. We have no way to know for sure.

            So you agree that we lose our identity when we die. I wonder if Neale agrees. If I recall “Home with God,” Neale suggests that we maintain our identity, evaluate our past live(s), and then decide how to enter into our next lives – all (as I understood it) as individuated unique entities that have perfect recall of past lives. Do you agree with that? It sounds to me like your god and Neale’s god are not in agreement.

            Who agrees with Mr. Awareness that when we die we lose our individual identities, memories, etc.?

          • mewabe

            I don’t agree about loosing our individual identity…based on my own psychic experiences with entities who are on the ‘other side”.
            But yes, from what I know there is an expansion after physical death. What we loose is a false sense of identity, the one defined by a fear of death and by the separate ego…because these ideas (death and separation) are illusions.

            Mine is a different kind of experience, based on my own individual search for truth. I don’t have all the answers because I only consider an actual, many times repeated experience valid. Everything else is conjecture.

            And even thought I have had psychic experiences all my life, my own strong skepticism caused me to have no interest in pursuing such things until about 10 years ago, and very moderately, because I know that being psychic and being spiritual can be two very different things, and my path has always been spirituality, not metaphysics.

            I totally understand your skepticism…especially because I know that many people are mislead, looking for answers in the wrong places (and there are a lot of these),

            Now if you don’t mind I have to get back to decorating my tinfoil hat with Christmas lights, to be ready for the Holidays.

          • Kristen

            Wow……how competitive can one possibly get…not letting others know we are now decorating the tinfoil hats??? With lights too…self powered I bet,, no doubt with some fancy pants technology that redirects your intuitive grounded energy to the lights.
            Bring it on! I shall endeavour to use my mind to power a laser beam on mine! Using gifts from above obviously, since I do believe in life beyond Earth.
            I watch San Andreas movie last night, if it accidently turns to HAARP technology, well sorry about that, the foil does odd things when breaking the link.
            I do expect a pic as your disqus photo.
            Enjoy, and do hope you have your Halloween costume underway as well.

          • mewabe

            I wear a Halloween costume every day…on Halloween I dress normal. They let us do that in the institution where I was born, I think it’s called a mental hospital if I am not mistaken.
            Laser beam huh? Well my tin hat will play jingle bell in Mandarin. Take that! Let’s see what you’ve got!

          • Kristen

            Well I thought Halloween was when you had to say Hello instead of Hi! Funny you mention your former home…google Spookers Auckland. Our mental hospital (are we allowed to say that, even when we both admit to being mental and demented), is now a haunted house..both the real and acting variety. I cant even get within 100metres of the grounds, you know how the invisible spiritual walls work…try explaining that one to Patrick!!
            Any way…hats….BRING ………IT……. ON. I note its just jingle bell, not bells…well we can all go to a dollar store and buy one little bell, made in China. You do not want to see what Ive got, Ill be the Princess of Crafts. Heck, I might even turn American and knit a hideous foil Christmas jumper (not that I can knit), to wear on Halloween.
            OMG Ive just realised Ive seen you around …a you the guy around here that wears a Darth Vader costume every day…undermined race??!!!

          • mewabe

            It is fun to be mental…and dismantled. Anyway I am very disappointed with Patrick…he won’t accept the fact that I have had very intelligent conversations with my left foot. Who does he think he is, insulting my foot like that?
            Sacrebleu! (That’s to awaken your French heritage).
            Yes ghosts are frequent in places where there has been a lot of suffering. Unfortunate…I avoid these areas as well. And…I remember not being able to actually walk in a Tutankhamun exhibit years ago in California. Talk about a spiritual wall…I stopped dead at the entrance of the museum, couldn’t go further. It felt extremely negative.
            Whatever you do, don’t turn American…except perhaps on Halloween. But then you would have to gain 200 lbs to look like the real thing…is this considered hate speech by the way?

            No that was not me, it was my evil twin…


          • Kristen

            Hahahaha….The Source is your overseer at the mo, I can tell by the conversation. Everything I am doing or thinking crops up. Erm….bad news, you have a bad year coming, it sux, but just the way it is. I dont agree with it, and Im still recovering from it starting 2years ago, and its one of those unpublished learning curves and huge personality tests BUT so you are more forewarned than me, I can say its kind of a grounding year…this is what the tinfoil hats conversation is all about. I can ‘read’ the signs, God, The Sources etc languages, remember whom I work for. I cant tell you how to pass, but can tell you they want to see very human traits come through, and The Source represents humour, joy etc so use these as you need. Your guides would have approved it, they have to, but its tough as its the top quarter of a side of a pyramid, they all are. Also remember a triangle (pyramid side), is half a diamond, the bottom half is the shadow of recent years in the past and a natural progression of this as you leave it behind you, and face the Sun. (Yup Im a girl freemason, hahaha). But hey, you dance to the beat of your own drum and will ignore me…..dont say I didnt warn you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough of that mumbo jumbo for now.

            Anyway, evil twins….The Source is a party pooper and is controlling intuition at the mo. My halloween tinfoil hat is nearly finished WITH my evil twin that they pulled out of my body a few years ago, attached to the front!! That sure beats your lame jingley bell.

            I have a love hate thing with spiritual walls. I know they are for my own safety as greeblies can see us too easily, and our big auras make us susseptible to possession or being followed home (actually since youre a guy you probably dont know that there are a lot of incubus lurgies in these places…you can feel their lust, its revolting, they often possess rapists etc), but sometimes I really want to see whats in there…for educational purposes of course. Ive learned to ‘read’ them a bit, and lots are deliberate imprints to actually protect peoples privacy or huge trauma imbedded in the environment. If respectful sometimes I can walk through those ones. For about two seconds before I run and hide.

            Your asylum upbring has confused you a bit…its the right foot you talk to. Get it right. The left will never talk back, so if you hear from it, you have problems. Easy to remember, at witch school the nuns taught us right is alright, left needs to be left alone. Got it???!!! If you do it wrong, you get bunions…or onions, maybe I misheard.


          • Awareness

            Patrick Gannon wrote“: “Who agrees with Mr. Awareness that when we die we lose our individual identities, memories, etc.?”

            You obviously don’t know about Neale Donald Walsch’s book “Home with God” 🙂 You don’t know the book at all 🙂 This is becoming interesting:

            Caught you! Here is a quote from “Home with God”:

            In death, all of your individual identities are shed, ending the separation OF you FROM you, at last” 🙂

            Neale’s book “Home with God” agrees with what I said 🙂 What I did was merely express the same thing in my own way 🙂 You come here arguing with Neale yet you have not understood his books at all! 🙂 Strange 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • DANiEL JACKson

            So, now you are quoting a book, that someone else wrote as your statement. It would be wise to take what works for you and use your own words to express that which (you may) understand as a product of yourself. I have read CWG books, 1-3 and started to read another one but that one didn’t ‘ring’ true for me, I read about 1/3 and set it back in the library. I have not had the inclination to read it since.

            The first 3 books were written from a very ‘deep’ spiritual energy, the rest seem to be written from the ‘mind’ which, in my opinion, lacks ‘depth’ in their meanings. However, don’t get me wrong, for Neale’s books are extraordinary to say the least but one may perceive that when information is received and attained, that one may travel (in spirit and mind) beyond such.

            This is the process, to become completely comfortable in a conception does not allow one to venture into higher thoughts.

            Just a thought
            Be Well

          • Awareness

            You are not “Patrick Gannon” so the context has changed 🙂 The language you are using here to express yourself was not developed by you. Everything you know today is based on what you have been taught 🙂

            What is expressed by Neale Donald Walsch in his books are not new (even Neale admits that) 🙂 The words in Neale Donald Walsch’s books have been expressed in the past by many other spiritual masters 🙂 So there is nothing really new 🙂

            However, if you yourself wish to express something “truly” unique to you then I suggest you open a scientific lab and carry out research. Then publish your works in a “peer reviewed” journal 🙂 Even that would still be based on something 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • DANiEL JACKson

            I would have to say you are correct in most of your statement, my friend, however, being ‘taught’ is not who I profess to be. I have rarely been taught by book or teacher, however, if you perceive being ‘taught’ by the spirit that which I am, may be accepted as a truth. Yet, the word ‘taught’ only indicates that ‘I’ may not be able to understand most ideas by which has been provided other by books or teachers, I only use God ‘given’ gifts (as they were) called ‘in-sights’ that prevail to be the grandest teacher of them all. I am that I understand that I am and not have found much in books, yet, there have been some valuable statements that I have accepted in accordance with my ‘personal’ understandings.

            However, I apologies for the interruption. I may have been in error at doing such.

            I do, however, appreciate your reply and as a ‘research’ professional, I have acquired many insights from those who volunteered to be part of ‘our’ ongoing research in human behavior sciences. Yet, to become a scientist may not be a ‘bad’ idea either.

            Much obliged
            Be Well

      • Divergent12

        Thank you, i will definitly read it.

  • james kim

    There is no bad intention for me in revealing following story. When I was a teenager, I had a strange dream. In my dream there was a great Light above me, and I tried to reach it. However, I failed twice. Then the Light itself drew me into it. In the Light I felt great joy, love and glory.

    I don’t know whether every soul returns to the Light after death.
    However, I believe we have afterlife.

  • Susan Boxer

    The past 30 years of my life have been intimately involved in seeking answers to similar spiritual questions and my search brought me to many great inquiring minds of our time, some of which have suggested that “what we think about and feel about we bring about” or in other words, “believing is seeing”. And more recently I have become particularly intrigued by thoughts regarding the transformational power of Love.

    Perhaps it is because I strongly resonate with these thoughts and to this day continue to nurture them, that they have, as powerful creative forces in their own right, expanded into physical manifestation in my life. Over the past 10 years or so, I have experienced an ever-increasing number of realizations that we are indeed powerful creative vessels, through which, what I Intimately experience as God (or Source or Higher Self or I AM Presence… or whatever we choose to call this magnificent Loving Intelligence that creates universes), reveals Him/Her/Itself 🙂

    “Ask and it is given” is another phrase I have become intimately connected with as my journey progresses and my quest clarifies as a desire to feel WHOLE, which I believe can only occur through a return to love. The more I dare to ask GOD to help me see LOVE at work in every… yes EVERY situation! … the more I am able to SEE how everything truly comes together as ONE, as a unified WHOLE, with LOVE as its source.

    I can’t, at present, speak of the Hereafter with any great insight for I have but experienced what I believe to perhaps be a glimpse of it, but if I was to venture to share what rises within me as I remember that moment, I would share this: it is the state of being… of REMEMBERING, A realization that we are home, we are love, we are whole… that we are what we’ve been seeking. It is a state where the struggle ends, where nothing matters, where everything is welcome, just as it is… And it is a realization that everything we have experienced to the very moment we cross that threshold into the Hereafter (every single person/every single event – EVERYTHING LOVINGLY SERVED, as part of Life’s divine design, a perfect orchestration of its unwavering guidance, carrying us to that very moment of glory… it is the blissful moment where the search is no more.

    Infinite Love & Gratitude to each of you for your blessed role in our collective REMEMBERING!


  • Gross Prophet


    First of all, allow me to thank you for the work that you have already performed, in putting these collections together, and beginning the process of change for so many.

    I know (contrary to Patrick Gannon’s assertions) that there is ‘something out there’, which most people choose to call ‘God’, or ‘Allah’, ‘Brahman’, ‘Great Spirit’, whatever it may be. The name matters little, as they all refer to the same thing, and our concept of that thing will only be as clear and complete as we are capable of comprehending at the time. I also know, by your words, that you have had the same kind of encounter with that God that I, and countless others, have had, and therefore can not HELP but say the things you do.

    It is my utmost desire that others have that same kind of experience, in sufficient numbers, and proximity in time, and of sufficient depth, that the transformation that I KNOW is possible would occur just that much sooner — but, sadly, like Jodie Foster’s character in ‘Contact’, that remains my hope.

    I KNOW that we will ALL eventually ‘get there’, but to see the level of suffering across this planet, and to KNOW that it could all be ended virtually overnight, if we but desired it in sufficient number, and with sufficient strength of will, is sometimes more than I care to contemplate.

    I can say that I KNOW these things, as that certainty and conviction came to me one night when I was overwhelmed with grief, railing at God for the state of things at the time — and in the middle of my tirade, I was enveloped by the ineffable. I say it that way because I have tried to convey it to others, at other times, and there is absolutely nothing I can say, no way that language could ever suffice, to relate to someone else just what it was like. But know OF A CERTAINTY, whoever else may read this, that there is no way such feelings of peace, and bliss, and overwhelming rectitude, and the accompanying information that was blasted into my awareness, could have come from within me alone. I am simply not capable of generating from within myself alone the magnitude of majesty, humility, POWER, and absolute, unquestioning, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE that I experienced in those moments.

    While thus enfolded by such, I was allowed to see that what I had been grieving over was simply the result of my own incomplete understanding of this incredible, magical mechanism of a universe that we have been gifted with, and that, from the proper perspective, there is nothing but that enveloping, LOVING, energy – in, around, and through everything that is. All our heartache over death, pain, privation, circumstance of birth, etc., is entirely our own deluded fabrication, and if we would simply wake up from our collective somnambulent stupor, the world would once again be our ‘garden of Eden’.

    I BELIEVE that heaven and hell are up to us. These concepts were created as tools of motivation, either through fear or fervent longing, but are more properly applied to the world(s) that WE co-create. So far, we’ve done pretty well at hell, but, as others have said, we are yet a relatively infantile species…and there are some really encouraging signs of progress/development, BUT, we are SO FAR FROM WHERE WE COULD BE!

    I BELIEVE that reincarnation is the only logical answer to what APPEAR to be life’s ills/shortcomings (i.e., how could a PERFECT creator make something so screwed up?), and also offers immense potential to radically alter one’s behavior by creating a much more long-term mode of thinking (we will inhabit the world that we help create), and could also help cut short phobias, and patterns of illogical behavior which carry over from one lifetime to another, if we would but start using it that way.

    I BELIEVE that, in order to make much headway any time soon, that we need to do away with religious fundamentalism and literalism whenever it is encountered, as the beliefs which those engender have long since passed the point where they do much more harm than good, that is, they are holding people back from recognizing our true relationship with that which we call ‘God’, and with each other — and they allow the rationalization of so much violence and hatred, all in the name of their ‘loving’ deity.

    Just my thoughts. Once more, thank you for your efforts in this regard, and for this avenue of discourse.

    • Patrick Gannon

      Nobody wants to answer the question, “what if” there’s no heaven or hell or afterlife of any sort? Gross Prophet does not answer the question either. This is one reason, I think, why atheists and agnostics make people so uncomfortable – even among themselves… it’s because the idea of atheism and agnosticism force all of us to consider the very real possibility that there is nothing beyond this physical matter reality, and that makes us very uncomfortable. A study backed by 30 years of research (Corey Cook) about the afterlife, found that “when participants thought about atheism it activated concern about death to the same extent as actually thinking about death.”

      Neale’s question was “what if” there’s no afterlife. Cook indicated that there are different responses when we think about death consciously and unconsciously. He said, thinking about death in a conscious way “can increase your appreciation for things.” Neale invited people to think about the possibiliity of nothing after death, but there’s something in our evolutionary makeup that really bothers us when it comes to this subject. Few can bring themselves to face their own doubts, so they hide behind their unknowable “knowing.” If we could face those fears, we might gain a better appreciation for what we have here and now.

      What Neale does, is the same thing religion does – he gives us something to “believe in” which gives us a way to avoid thinking about death in an honest and realistic fashion. Gross Prophet, like so many others, says he “knows” there’s an afterlife – but he doesn’t. He can only “believe” it, only have “faith” (pretending to know things you don’t know) in it. If anyone “knew” it, there would be objective evidence with which to confirm it and we would not be having this discussion. We do not “know” if there is an afterlife. Wish for one, if you must, but acknowledge that nobody “knows” and face the question Neale asks: What if there isn’t an afterlife? What if this is all we get? Would it be good or bad for us to learn this conclusively? Face your fears for a while – you might end up healthier for it.

      • Gross Prophet

        Patrick, your posts throughout these discussions tend increasingly towards nothing but contrarianism, or semi-pro trolling. But, I shall give you the benefit of the doubt, and respond as if you are genuinely concerned/interested in these matters.

        I politely proffer, that if you can sincerely ask the questions you ask, then you have never had a truly spiritual experience. If you had, then you too would have no doubt. You might still have questions about the exact methodology of some aspects of our existence, or the particular logistics of how/why some things occur as they do, but you would have NO doubt that there will be an ‘after-life’ (you might even have questions as to what exactly that means, but that’s okay, too).

        “There is none so blind, as he who will not see.” Another aphorism from the Bible, self-evident in its profundity. “Seek and ye shall find. Ask and it shall be given. Knock, and the door shall be opened.” I suggest that you demand proof from the only one who can give it. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.” When’s the longest that you have ever gone without food? Can you remember how that felt? When you are so desperate for the answer to these questions you pose that you feel like you will die if you don’t receive them, then you will know. My choice of wording is deliberate. I do not say that you will ‘believe’ — I state unequivocally that you will KNOW.

        The curious circumstance behind it all is that there is no way thereafter of imparting that same understanding to another.

        If you wish to let logic lead you, then I suggest you begin an in-depth study as you are led by your spirit. Read William James’ “The Varieties of Religious Experience”. Read Ian Stevenson’s works in reincarnation. Read what great minds through history have had to say about these matters, e.g., this quote from a respected philosopher –“Whenever anything in nature seems to us ridiculous, absurd or evil,” said Spinoza “it is because we have but a partial knowledge of things.”

        Better yet, stop so much using your mind, and ‘become as a little child’ and let your heart lead you. Open yourself to receiving insight, from wherever it may come, in whatever direction it might lead.


        Life Is Too Short.
        Break The Rules, Forgive Quickly,
        Kiss Slowly, Love Truly,
        Laugh Uncontrollably,
        And NEVER Regret ANYTHING
        That Made You Smile.
        Life May Not Be The Party
        We Hoped For,
        But While We’re Here, We Should Dance…

        • Patrick Gannon

          GP, I have had a handful of spiritual experiences that nearly knocked me on my butt. People have had such experiences with or without religious beliefs for probably tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years. These events are apparently caused by electrochemical reactions in the brain and are brought on by a variety of stimuli. I’ve experienced such things while meditating and running. It’s often – or maybe always – the loss of “self” that is a pretty well documented phenomenon. It brings about an ecstatic feeling of euphoria. Indeed a valuable and useful meditating method is to look for your “self’ only to discover there really is no such thing. Consciousness (the soul) appears to be an illusion.

          Thanks for the reading list. I did the New Age thing for too many years. I’ve read all sorts of books about reincarnation, OBEs, etc., not to mention a bookshelf full of Neale’s books. I’ve also read the bible cover to cover more than once, so no need to throw scripture at me.

          Science is quickly explaining all of it. We can stimulate specific parts of the brain to cause OBEs for example. We know from repeated experiments that the brain makes some decisions a half second before we’re even aware of having made those decision. If I’m a contrarian, it’s because I “drank the Kool Aid” without doing the research that would have told me New Age is another business model, borrowing heavily from religion, but with the same objective – to help people hide from their fear of death in exchange for money.

          I love your poem or words of wisdom as they don’t imply any need whatsoever for an afterlife, in order to have a purpose here. Thank you for embracing my position, as I agree with it wholeheartedly. Ecclesiastes also said it well.

          You still didn’t address Neale’s question. What if there is no afterlife? What if you are wrong? Go back to your post and count the number of times you said “you.” Now write a post about yourself, instead of me – someone you don’t know from Adam – and answer Neale’s question – what if this is all there is? Would that be good or bad, and why do you take that position?

          • Gross Prophet

            Interesting, and quite revealing, that you consider William James and Baruch Spinoza to be ‘New Age’.

            I have no fear of death, but it seems rather obvious that you do, else why so tortured over what you say is nothing but random electrical signals and ‘Kool-Aid’? You are afraid that your life has or will have no meaning, no ‘purpose’, and you are desperately searching for an answer.

            You say that you have read the Bible cover to cover – more than once, even – yet you, like tens of thousands of others, completely missed the most important parts, like ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself. On this hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.” “The Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.” “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Stop trying to reconcile everything with your MIND, because that is an absolutely IMPOSSIBLE task – just look at the thousands of philosophers and religious scholars through the centuries who STILL can’t agree. Open your heart, and your mind will follow, and you will find the answers.

            If there is no after-life, then NO ONE’S life has any purpose. If we all simply live, in whatever circumstance we find ourselves, getting by the best we can, and everything that occurs is simply some happy, or unfortunate, accident, then EVERYTHING that occurs in EVERYONE’S life is absolutely meaningless, and human life is then the cruelest JOKE ever conceived and perpetrated. Yet BILLIONS of people manage to live AS IF it all DOES matter, that there is some higher purpose at work, even if they have no clue why, how, or what it all means. WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT IS?

            Why do you suppose that a child born to a crack-head mother, in abject poverty, knowing only hardship and deprivation, can rise above that circumstance, and become a judge, or an astronaut, or an Olympian? What could possibly motivate them to accept and conquer, where many others would simply lash out in anger?

            If this is all we get – one shot at life, WHATEVER the circumstance we find we inhabit, then it’s just over – then how in the hell have we managed ANY level of civilization? What could possibly motivate people to endure such – meekly – and seek only to live, and love, as best they can? It is that part of divinity which resides within each one of us, but which so many (like you) simply keep tramping under our egos. Anyone can acquire knowledge, but it is wisdom that is needed here.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No GP, I don’t consider James and Spinoza to be “New Age.” I was referring to the issue of reincarnation, and yes I know that’s not really New Age either as Hindus and others have proposed reincarnation for centuries – but this is a New Age site, and I’ve read a lot of New Age stuff, much of it drawn from eastern religions – and some of it, like the practice of meditation and mindfulness, is very useful. Neale has some very useful advice, and interesting ways to try and better ourselves and our society – but he bases it all on perpetuating the original problem to begin with – beliefs. Like every religionist before him, he wants people to change their beliefs to his beliefs. He’s unwilling to consider that beliefs result in lying to ourselves, and that this may not be healthy for individuals or societies.

            BTW, Spinoza was a determinist who didn’t believe in free will – and he may be proven right. It’s odd that you would quote him, as what “purpose” can we have if everything is determined and we have no free will?

            You said: “You are afraid that your life has or will have no meaning, no ‘purpose’, and you are desperately searching for an answer.”

            Thank you for psychoanalyzing me without the benefit of knowing anything about me. I always appreciate people telling me what’s wrong with me, and find it interesting that so many believers are presumptuous enough to think they are qualified to diagnose others without knowing anything about them.

            No, I don’t fear death – to be honest, I kind of look forward to it. Yes, my life has purpose – a lot of purpose. I am a contributing member of society in many ways, and I feel pretty fulfilled and self-satisfied as a human being; but if you say otherwise, you must be right, given that you know me so well.

            No, I did not miss the important parts of the bible, and I remind believers of those parts in other forums quite regularly. Few people spout scripture in this forum unless they are visiting fundies. There are a few here, who are drawn to Neale’s version of “Christianity Lite” otherwise known as the “New Spirituality” religion. Does this describe you?

            I’m sorry you feel that your life would have no purpose if there is no afterlife. Fortunately I’ve accomplished a lot, and have helped a lot of people, and have few regrets. I can pass on without feeling like I need another chance to get it right, and I have no desire to return – particularly not with the world in the shape it’s in. I will not be disappointed if the lights just go out – duh – because I’ll be dead, and death is an important part of life. Without death, evolution could not occur.

            As for ultimate purpose – that probably boils down to our genome. The purpose of our genome is to survive, reproduce and continue to evolve. Most of us participate in that process and purpose. Fortunately many such as Catholic clergy remove themselves from the gene pool. Too bad more people don’t have the good sense to know they shouldn’t reproduce! Unfortunately this evolutionary advantage which kept us from dying out when we barely survived in a primitive society, is becoming our greatest problem as we transitioned very, very quickly to a much more technically advanced society in which natural selection does not take babies and mothers at birth as it has for hundreds of thousands of years – but that’s another subject. Zika may be our salvation, forcing the RCC’s hand on the issue of contraception, as the next generation of Catholics are born with shrunken heads and disabled brains.

            Once again, you wrote all about me, and I thank you for your useful criticisms and analysis, but let me ask you once again to respond to the original question from Neale. What if there is no afterlife? You continue to protest, that of course there must be, but what if there isn’t? That people can’t even bring themselves to entertain the question speaks loudly about who among us is willing to even face their fears….

            Here are my (borrowed) thoughts if there is no afterlife:

            Life Is Too Short.
            Break The Rules, Forgive Quickly,
            Kiss Slowly, Love Truly,
            Laugh Uncontrollably,
            And NEVER Regret ANYTHING
            That Made You Smile.
            Life May Not Be The Party
            We Hoped For,
            But While We’re Here, We Should Dance…

          • Gross Prophet

            You know, it’s funny…In many ways you and I are not that different. I, too, would like people to be able to KNOW about God and the after-life, what’s it all about, Alfie? — It’s just that we have VERY different avenues of approach. You seem bent on having SCIENCE prove or disprove, or to try to make everything fit LOGIC-ally. Trust me when I say that will almost certainly NEVER happen.

            Me, I ALREADY KNOW. You were so quick to make light of my experience, comparing it to a runner’s high, yet I didn’t call you out for it, or get my nose out of joint. You simply have no clue, and that’s patently obvious by your posts. If you had EVER had a truly spiritual experience, as you say you have, then you would not be so horribly clueless, and still so desperate for answers to question that SCIENCE is not qualified to attempt.

            It’s like a little kid learning arithmetic. You can say 2 + 2 = 4 over and over, you can demonstrate it countless ways, but until the CHILD HIMSELF has that moment of inspiration/revelation, and actually UNDERSTANDS that 2 + 2 = 4, they will never get it — and until they do, they will never be able to comprehend advanced mathematics.

            You say that your life has had purpose, and meaning. Why? If we only get one life, why did you not commit violence against others, and simply grab everything that you could, while you could? WHAT STOPPED YOU from that kind of behavior? If you were ABSOLUTELY convinced that we only get one shot, then it’s over, I can safely say that your life would have been vastly different.

            I tire of you arbitrarily assigning values and positions to me which I have given you no reason to assume. I feel pretty sure I was right from the beginning – you’re simply a semi-pro troll, not sincerely interested in anything other than trying to stir up s–t.

            Nice google on the Spinoza, btw. Must have taken real talent.


          • Patrick Gannon

            Nah, not a runner’s high. I know the difference. You spewed a bunch of scripture at me – saying we should treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. You then insulted me again and again. I’m “horribly clueless,” I “have no clue,” I’m “so desperate for answers,” I’m like “a little kid learning arithmetic,” I’m a “semi-pro troll.” That’s all so spiritual of you. Pardon an insult of my own – but you’re a flaming hypocrite!

            You seem to imply that if I don’t believe in an afterlife that I should be driven to commit violence and steal whatever isn’t nailed down. If belief in an afterlife is what keeps you from doing those things, you aren’t a good person. I don’t need promise of reward, or risk of punishment in order to be a good person, but it sounds like are telling me that you do.

            I guess your answer to Neale’s question – what if there is no god/afterlife – is that you would do horrible things. I’m glad we’re different.

          • Gross Prophet

            Just as you did with the Bible (even tho you say you didn’t), you have missed the essential meaning of all my posts. They were to try to get you to realize that you are simply lying to yourself. You’re too ego-driven to ever see what’s in front of your face, so, I’m done with you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m sorry if I have missed the “essential meaning” of all your posts, GP. I guess that was a failure to communicate on your part, or a failure to comprehend on mine. You invited me to this discussion by referencing me in your initial post – otherwise, it’s unlikely that I would have commented. This is an old thread.

            If I’m not understanding your points (besides the insults, which I do understand), then please enlighten me. You began by insisting that you “KNOW” there’s an afterlife, disputing my contention that it is not possible to know this, as we can’t trust what our brains produce. Charlie Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, the 911 guys, and a bunch of others KNEW to the extent that they were willing to die, that they had the answer to the existence of their gods and afterlives. I don’t think they did, and you didn’t provide any evidence or explanation to indicate how you can KNOW these things when other mere mortals such as myself, do not.

            In what way am I “simply lying” to myself, given that I am the one who faced Neale’s question, while you refuse to do so?

            I can’t agree that I’m more ego-driven than you are, GP. My ego accepts that there’s a distinct possibility that this life is all there is, and that I am not all that important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, it seems to me that believer’s ego is so full of self-importance and so self-centered that it insists that an afterlife waits for him or her, since they must be way too important and critical to the continuation of the universe to simply die. Maybe you’ve got the ego thing backwards…

            In the future, I would suggest that you don’t pick fights with specific individuals if you aren’t willing or able to follow through. Now “I’m done with you” – unless you bring something useful and pertinent to the discussion besides personal insults, in which case, I’m delighted to continue the discussion. What about Neale’s question – what if there are no gods/afterlives? What would that mean?

          • Gross Prophet

            I do not assert an after-life for myself alone. Every single one of us, every human being that has ever lived, is headed down the very same road, through the very same mechanism.

            It IS your ego that has perceived my words as insults, and as far as ‘bringing something useful and pertinent to the discussion’, I have attempted NUMEROUS times to convey my truth to you, yet you absolutely refuse to consider any of it, in favor of your blind devotion to logic, and only what we can ‘KNOW’.

            I already told you that science and your mind will NEVER be able to PROVE any of the things you say you so desperately seek. YOU, YOURSELF, CAN _KNOW_ these things, if you will but allow it to happen. ‘Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.’ If you truly, desperately want these answers, they will come to you.

            As far as being able to believe/know what our minds tell us, I am well aware that sanity is a fragile thing. But in the final analysis, WHAT ELSE HAVE ANY OF US GOT TO GO BY? We either accept that our perceptions are valid, or we gradually (sometimes not-so-gradually) slip into psychosis or schizophrenia.

            I assume you had parents. Did they love you? If so, why? Was that just random chemical signals, our particular biological makeup that forced them to love? And, if it was merely chemical, then how can you say they actually ‘loved’ you? This was simply a built-in survival mechanism, established by the process of evolution to ensure continuation of the species? SEARCH YOUR HEART — DO YOU YOURSELF NOT BELIEVE THAT IT WAS MORE THAN JUST THAT?

            You are lying to yourself by refusing to follow any train of thought that does not comport with your concept of LOGIC and SCIENCE. Read some more of that, rather than simply googling snippets — nearly every great scientific mind believed in some form of a ‘God/Creator’, and most will flatly state that their greatest insights simply came to them from ‘somewhere out there’ — i.e., not from themselves.

            I believe you are not really interested in answers, you simply want people to think you are some kind of brainiac wunder-kind, like a wandering knight dispensing ‘justice’ in stamping out (what you perceive to be) ignorance wherever you find it.

            Prove me wrong, if you are able.

          • Patrick Gannon

            GP, I understand that you were asserting that your beliefs apply to everyone. That’s what every religionist of any flavor asserts.

            Once again, you have not offered your thoughts on “what if there are no gods or afterlife?” You simply maintain that this is not possible and avoid the question. Why? Does the idea of no afterlife make you so uncomfortable? If so, why? There won’t be any pain, no concern for punishment, or need for further ‘lessons.’ Why would this be so bad? What if you’re just gone? You posted a wonderful piece that I borrowed, because that is the perfect response if indeed this is all there is.

            As you indicated, you “have attempted NUMEROUS times to convey my truth to you.” The key words there are “my truth.” Sure you can have “your truth,” but that doesn’t make it “the truth.” The only truth we know for sure is that we don’t know.

            You insist (rather arrogantly in my view), that science will “NEVER” be able to prove some of the things for which we lack current knowledge. Clearly, the history of science would indicate otherwise. That has been said over and over the last couple centuries, and always there is more that we discover. We’ve barely scratched the surface. There is every reason to think that science will determine whether consciousness derives from the wet and juicy, biological brain, or whether there is some duality to it. As part of this research, we’ll learn more about free will and whether our actions are determined or whether there is perhaps a quantum randomness that permits choices. (And, yes, I know of Spinoza as a result of reading books about consciousness and free will. He is frequently referenced). We continue to get closer and closer to understanding how replication (life) first started. Figuring out what happened before the Big Bang will be a challenge, but we’ll keep working on it. Betting against science is a good way to end up in the poor house.

            Let’s say you’re right, and that you absolutely “know” that your truth is the real truth and your god and your afterlife are for real. What good is that, if you can’t prove that to everyone else? Sure, it’s a way to boost your ego, since you must be better than everyone else who doesn’t “know” your truth, but it doesn’t matter if you can’t prove it to others. The only way your truth would be of value is if you lived it – and I’m not seeing a very charitable personality here.

            If there’s a way to save our species, it won’t come from believers in the Vatican or new age New Spirituality. It will come because science figures out how to make free energy, or gets the human genome off this planet, or some other massive discovery that buys us time.

            I’ve spent several years meditating, including back when I was a CwG evangelist and a Tom Campbell evangelist – what I learned was that I don’t know. I know I can have wild visions, and ecstatic feelings, but nothing I’ve ever experienced proves the existence of gods or afterlives. Even if I came to “know” or believe these experiences as you and others do, I could and would not trust them. I’ve learned too much about the brain and how it can fool us.

            You ask what else do we have to go on but our fickle, subjective brains – and the answer is easy: we have to go on objective, empirical evidence. We can’t trust our brains.

            Why did my parents love me? Because humans evolved altruism, just like many other species. To love and care for one’s offspring provides a clear and obvious survival benefit, and thus a mechanism to ensure that our genome reproduces and survives.

            You are insisting that I should prove to you that I am not “some kind of brainiac wunder-kind, like a wandering knight dispensing ‘justice’ in stamping out (what you perceive to be) ignorance wherever you find it.” I think you have me completely wrong. I’m the one who is saying that we are all ignorant, and proposing that we should accept that. You claim to “know” whereas I’m acknowledging that I don’t know if there are gods and afterlives. I’m not claiming the existence of these things, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that you among a small select group of people to “know” this, while the rest of us languish in ignorance. Prove yourself correct, if you are able – and don’t forget – you picked this ‘fight’ with me. Going to the start of our discussion, it seems more reasonable to assume that YOU are the wandering knight dispensing justice, given that you invoked me in your post and attempted to stamp out my so-called ignorance.

          • Gross Prophet

            You are so lost and alone, yet what you yearn for is as close as the nose on your face. I have told you over, and over, and over again, that, just as was expressed in the movie ‘Contact’, ‘That’s just the way it’s been done.’ Remember the analogy of the child learning mathematics? I can not impart my knowledge or experience to you, and IT WILL NEVER BE REAL TO YOU UNTIL YOU DO APPREHEND/EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF.

            I simply can not make it any more clear than that. If you truly desire to have this KNOWLEDGE (YES, KNOW-ing), it has always been available to you, will always be available to you, but it is entirely up to you as to what level of information you will be satisfied with.

            So far, you’ve sold your soul for a mess of pottage…

          • Patrick Gannon

            Is condescension a spiritual attitude?

            “Contact” was fiction, in case you didn’t know, and it was written by an atheist – Carl Sagan. I doubt you would get any support from Carl for your beliefs.

            It remains to be seen if we have souls (a consciousness that can survive the death of the brain). We just don’t know – yet.

            I’m not lost. I’m sitting right here at my computer, and I’m not alone as my girlfriend wants me to tell you to piss off and come down to dinner!

          • Gross Prophet

            Is condescension a spiritual attitude? How about, you reap what you sow?

            I don’t believe you ever watched the movie ‘Contact’, but if you did, you missed the nuances there, just as you have in every conversation here. And to describe Sagan as an atheist is purposely, and demonstrably, false. Carl Sagan would have much more affinity with my beliefs than with yours, and would tell you much the same that I have.

            I have told you ways in which you can KNOW if we have a ‘soul’, yet you persist in refusing to consider any of them. You see everything as either/or, with almost no gray areas anywhere. Do you really comprehend just how limited our five senses are? How many levels of reality there are going on all around us, at every moment, of which most (and you, especially) are completely unaware?

            Not everyone is equipped for mystical insight, just as not everyone is born ready to become a giant of industry, or a Nobel prize winning scientist. It seems that there are things that you need to do in this lifetime that preclude the kind of experience I’ve been referring to. That’s fine, it will happen some other time. Just please stop wasting everyone’s time with these supposedly earnest inquiries that are nothing more than a ploy to try to inflate your ego.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Here’s an example of where your beliefs are dead wrong, GP. I have seen the movie, “Contact” numerous times, and have read the book several times – I have a well read, dog eared copy of it in my library. I do stand corrected though – I meant to say that Sagan was an agnostic – like me. Others have called him a closet atheist, but I think you are correct that he did not refer to himself that way. I spoke too quickly in calling him an atheist. Sagan came before the “New Atheists” made it respectable to be an atheist, and I can’t help but wonder if Sagan might reclassify himself if he was alive now. I doubt it, because I’m not comfortable with the title ‘atheist’ either; as it implies a closed mind to me.

            Given that I have read the book and seen the movie and thus confirmed for myself and others who know that I’ve read the book or actually watched the movie with them, we have now firmly established that you can have incorrect beliefs. What reason is there to maintain that every other belief you have is correct, now that we know your beliefs can be wrong? You believed I knew nothing of Spinoza, and while I have not read his works, he is referenced repeatedly in any book having to do with consciousness and free will, and many books related to religion – the kind of books I read all the time. You know nothing about me, yet you talk down to me like a child, you insult me repeatedly and then you pretend to be spiritual. I’m not buying it.

            You have not given me any objective way in which to “know” that we have a soul. Assuming the soul is associated with consciousness, most of the evidence we have today indicates that consciousness is a product of the brain and cannot survive without it. We will “know” this when and if science figures it out definitively, till then, all we can do is “believe” it, just as we once believed the earth was the center of the universe, created in 6 days, and that the sun went around the earth and volcanoes, floods, asteroids, and earthquakes were all the work of some god. What we have believed has been shown to be false again and again. It’s much wiser, I think, to wait till we “know.”

            I am not wasting your time. If you feel your time is wasted, then you are wasting it yourself. If you’re wasting your time why do you keep doing so by responding here? Don’t complain to me about your own actions. You are wasting your own time. Nobody is required to read anything I write here. I’ll remind you once again, that you invited me to this dance. You’ve spent much more energy berating me than attempting to show how I can come to objectively “know” the beliefs you hold. You haven’t suggested any particular meditation technique or other method by which I might come to “know” what you believe – all you’ve done is attempt to belittle me because I questioned your beliefs. That says more to me about your spiritual character, than what you’ve actually written.

            I think it’s probably time to end this thread. You refuse to respond to the question of “what if” there are no gods or afterlife. You won’t attempt to respond to this hypothetical question, asked by Neale – so let’s let it go. I’m more interested in people who want to discuss the subject at hand, rather than focus their attention on childishly berating me in an wholly unspiritual manner.

          • Gross Prophet

            You waste everyone’s time here. And now you are lying. I did not, EVER, ‘invite’ you to this conversation — you shoved yourself into it. I simply referenced you in my original post — I did not flag you to it. YOU chose to start this up.

            I have told you repeatedly that if you ever have a truly spiritual experience, you will KNOW whereof I speak. You choose to repeatedly ignore that, and minimize and belittle my experience. Thus the reference to ‘you reap what you sow’. And who the hell ever said that to be ‘spiritual’ meant that I had to be infinitely patient or forgiving, especially when someone is so willfully intractable?

            You are not interested in ‘people who want to discuss the subject at hand’, as you repeatedly kept shoving YOUR questions forward, completely ignoring the fact, as was pointed out to you by others already, that Neale had already clarified his question(s).

            I was nothing but patient and encouraging, until you demonstrated that you were deliberately being disingenuous. If you take this as ‘childish’, perhaps you are projecting?

            But, yeah, I’m done with you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Now I’m a liar? Did you or did you not write: “I know (contrary to Patrick Gannon’s assertions) that there is ‘something out there’,” In reading that, it’s clear you called me a liar in your second sentence, and you expect someone you call a liar to simply let it go unanswered? In the famous words of Bugs Bunny: “He don’t know me very well, do he?”

            You invited me to this dance. Had you not invoked my name, I would never have commented. Like I said, this is an old thread; but you called me into it. If I invoked your name in a post, I would certainly expect, or not be surprised if you responded. Maybe next time you won’t be so quick to do that. How “spiritual” is it to repeatedly call someone a liar?

            Patient and encouraging? That’s what you call insults, belittling and condescension? OK, but I disagree with your definition of those terms.

            Neale’s question was perfectly clear, and he follows the same thread throughout the post, asking his audience to share their beliefs and thoughts about his question – but practically nobody did, and of course that includes you. In any event, I did what he asked, and I shared my thoughts about “what if” there are no gods or afterlife and tried to encourage others to do the same – but it’s too difficult a subject to face, I guess, and there’s certainly no willingness on your part, and some others (but not all) to entertain the ideas of people who hold differing views. I have had a number of discussions here with other people who have claimed to have spiritual experiences and we’ve talked about them, or what little they were willing to share. I’ve questioned those experiences, but some people actually are spiritual and actually manage to hold a discussion without all the insults and condescension. I won’t mention names, but there’s a regular contributor “M” here who holds at least some of your beliefs, claims ‘spiritual experiences’ and is able to discuss them without your rancor. Although I don’t agree with him, I respect his spirituality, his humanity, and his opinion, and would be happy to have him as a friend, and would enjoy many civil discussions with him.

            I’m not sure how you can say I belittled your spiritual experience as you failed to share any details about it. I have no idea what your experience was. Did Jesus talk to you? Did you have an OBE and end up in some mystical vision? Did you experience automatic writing like Neale claims? What was it about your spiritual experience that leads you to “know” that there is an afterlife? I know you can’t provide proof of a subjective experience (which is the real problem), but you didn’t even try to explain what it was and why your experience proves the existence of an afterlife. We were simply asked to accept your word that you “know” there’s an afterlife, without you providing any evidence, subjective or otherwise about what led you to this conclusion. You claim you were led to this revelation, but you provide no details about it. Were magic mushrooms involved?

            Neale speaks frequently of seeking our “greatest vision” of ourselves. Have you actually read any of his books? You seem not to have any interest in the spiritual advice he offers – based on my experience with you here it seems you don’t follow his advice – or perhaps you simply have a very limited “greatest vision” of yourself?

            This discussion, like others on this forum, have been very useful to me. They have shown me that the new age religions such as the New Spirituality are really no different from legacy religions. They don’t seem to make people any better persons. It’s a business. Questioning a new age believer here is often no different from questioning a Southern Baptist fundy. The only difference is that you did not tell me I’m going to burn in Hell (at least not yet!).

          • Gross Prophet

            ‘I’m not sure how you can say I belittled your spiritual experience as you failed to share any details about it.’

            Thus proving that you did not even read all of my original post. You simply jumped in and started whacking away at what you perceived as deluded ‘belief’. You have never intended to learn anything from these discussions, you’re just a different version of that which you say you decry. And I have no obligation to display infinite patience when someone has demonstrated that they are not listening anyway, and are willing to make absurd leaps of ill-logic in order to TRY to make a particular point.

            Now go find someone else to play along with your stupid games.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Oh, I’ve read your post a few times, GP. You did not describe your experience; I checked prior to raising that point. You said, in your post to Neale, ” I also know, by your words, that you have had the same kind of encounter with that God that I, and countless others, have had,” Neale’s encounter was an automatic writing encounter. Are the encounters that “countless others” and that of your own, all automatic writing encounters? I’m guessing not. Aside from this, you said nothing about what kind of “encounter” you had that led you to believe in all these things, including reincarnation.

            Why can’t you share your experience in detail, if it had such a profound effect on you? You seem to be expecting that others and myself should believe what you do as a result of this “encounter,” but you didn’t share it with us. Why should we believe you? Yeah, I pointed out the total lack of objective evidence for such claims, but at least you could have offered up some subjective evidence to support yourself. Instead you spent this entire thread going after me, calling me names, insulting me, questioning my motives and my honesty – all in a rather unspiritual and uncharitable way – at least from my point of view.

            I’m very interested in what kinds of “encounters” people have that lead them to these beliefs. I’ve had powerful experiences myself, but I was able to look at them objectively.

            Once again thank you for sharing your immense knowledge of my motivations. I guess you are visiting me in OBE’s in order to somehow gain all this intimate knowledge about me? Or you set up spy cameras in my house? Or I’m under surveillance? How is it that you know me so well that you can tell me exactly what my intentions are? That’s so amazing. If this is all the result of an “encounter” with your god, I’m unimpressed.

            By the way, do you have any thoughts to share on the question of: “What if there is no “heaven”? What if there is no “hell”? What if there is no “God”? What if there is no “life” in the “hereafter”? What if there is no “hereafter” at all — no Life After Death, no one and nothing on The Other Side, no “other side” of any kind, and nothing after life on Earth but darkness, emptiness — and not even an awareness of that?” It’s a great question; one of the best Neale has ever asked.

          • Spiritual_Annie

            Gross Prophet,

            While I admire your perseverence, it’s been obvious for a while that Patrick is here to drive the topic, not to be part of a conversation. In the past, he’s not been happy unless and until someone answers HIS questions and can have such tunnel vision that he keeps the conversation from evolving. I don’t even know if he realizes Neale reiterated what he would like to see answered, which has nothing to do with the “what if” questions used to open the column but are about what we believe.

            Love and Blessings,