An Open Letter to Our World:

“Love means not having to say you’re sorry,” Erich Segal famously wrote as a piece of dialogue in his wonderful book Love Story over 25 years ago.  Today, I would like to amend that.  I want to say…

“Love means not having to say you’re bad.”

I was musing about this earlier this morning with my wonderful wife, Em.  “You know what I think love is?” I asked.  “What?” she smiled.  “I think love is a willingness to always return your Beloved to the highest ideas about themselves that they’ve ever had.”

Em smiled again.

“I think this is what God does for us,” I went on.  ”I think God’s ‘job’ is to return us every day to the highest idea we’ve ever had about ourselves.  I think God sees us the way we see us in our highest version.  I think God says to us, ‘Yes, yes, that is Who You are.  Stay with that!  Stick with that!  Don’t give that up!  And don’t ever let anyone tell you anything different about yourself.”

I think that when we do this for our Beloved, and our Beloved does this for us, we have a match made in Heaven.

But what happens in so many relationships is this:  We meet someone to whom we are attracted, and we fall in love.  We then see them in all their wonderful ways, virtually without fault or foible.  If we are lucky, they fall in love with us, too.  And they see us in the same way: virtually without stain or soil.  If we are really lucky, we become Life Partners.

Then the Moment-to-Moment sets in.

In the Moment-to-Moment, and over a period of time, our Beloved begins to see things in us that were not immediately apparent to them — or that were apparent, but that they easily and graciously ignored.  In addition, some things that they could never have seen, because they were not close enough, now become visible.  The Moment-to-Moment reveals things about us that the Now-and-Then does not.

So now here we are, standing, literally, naked, confronted by the reality that we have some “stuff” going on that our Beloved hadn’t seen or anticipated; that we, ourselves, had almost forgotten about in the heady days of being loved so unconditionally by another.

Yet now we have to face the facts:  we are not so special as we thought ourselves to be; we are not so wonderful as we imagined ourselves to be, or experienced ourselves to be, in the warm glow of our Beloved’s early and limited perception.  We conclude, sadly, that it’s true.  Our own worst thought about ourself is true.

We should have known better…

We should have known better than to believe that we were what we allowed ourselves to think ourselves to be after being merely glanced, through the Early Eyes of the Newly Loving.


(To be continued…)

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  • Blake

    Acceptance; Dispelling Evil Rethinking God

    Old religion teaches that there are two forces in the world
    that direct people to commit acts of generosity and destruction; good and evil.
    I see it happening all over the world in every village and in every city,
    people acting out as if they have a direct order from god to change others to
    their belief of uniformity.

    This has been prevalent
    in all of civilizations since the dawn of time; people loving then accusing,
    then hating, and in the end winning or losing endless wars over good versus
    evil. The United States is just one such country caught in this endless
    struggle that no one can ever see or appreciate the end of this perpetual

    Today I was sitting in my 12 Step Meeting listening to a new
    guy his struggle with being accepting to people, places and things that he
    thought were controlling him thereby threatening his sobriety. What it means to
    me to be sober is not succumbing to my many addictions by anesthetizing my
    feelings of shame, anger, remorse and guilt with substances outside of me.

    My religion began earnestly back in the early 1980’s my
    first belief as an atheist; bent on disproving the existence of god. And after
    doing my best to being righteous couple of years later after much reflection I
    began to hate the whole idea of god so much that I damned god everyday and I
    was sternly told by an elder that I must have a great relationship because I
    was talking to god.

    Then I thought that my higher power were the people in the
    meetings in which I held that belief for many years and soon after, I was
    saved, and I praised and worshiped the almighty himself content that Jesus was
    the answer to all my problems. My idea was if I faked it and kept pounding it
    in my head that I was a born again Christian my life would become happier. And
    it did for a while, until.

    In 1995 I read Neale Donald Walsch, Conversation with God
    (CWG) book and read something the Bible only talked about mystically and kept
    it a secret from novices like me. “Adolph Hitler went to Heaven!” I was a gassed to say the least. The book
    continued, “If you can grasp this single concept than you can know the
    unconditional love of god.”

    In my 12 Step meeting I had firsthand experience with this
    unconditional love; people, no matter what rabble came out of my mind accepted
    me unconditionally without open judgment. I said to me, “Of course, the Founder
    Bill Wilson must have mysteriously designed the 12 Steps to be about this kind
    of unconditional love without actually printing the word” unconditional” in the
    12 Step texts.” I am a dreamer and was convinced this was one of the hidden
    messages that made the 12 Steps such a miracle straight from god and good ole’

    I then began to embrace my own understanding of god which
    pissed off the pastor at my Church I was attending almost every day. This
    Minister, although a nice guy was in his opinion following the Bible because every
    word is from god himself and that only the Bible was the word of god. This poor
    guy talked about loving the man and hating the sinner in all things. I was
    convinced that I was a most terrible unforgivable sinner that I convinced
    myself deserved to be punished. But, what is this unconditional love mean.

    Neale Walsch said, “There is no such thing as sin.” Neale
    said that there were no ten commandments these were instead ten commitments a
    baseline that I could measure my spiritual commitment to god.

    This minister was so
    loving he had disowned his gay son for his own good and to give his son the
    opportunity to repent and change his evil ways. I asked the Minister about
    unconditional love and he promptly told me to go back to my Bible and find the
    word unconditional; reminding me that if it was there he would have known it
    and saved me the trouble of asking such a stupid question. That was the end of
    that, I moved on I was growing; god wasn’t, at least not at that church. I told
    my Christian friends to read Neale’s book, one did and she told me in no
    uncertain terms that I was a blasphemer and a devil worshiper for even
    suggesting that Neale was saying is the truth.

    I went to more liberal churches some that in their
    bookstores sold CWG and these churches all had a different take on the Bible. I
    don’t know why I thought that Christianity was the answer to my desire to
    connect with god and I kept trying over and over. I would realize many years
    later that the 12 Step programs were based on old religion and many of its
    suggestions were supported by all of the old religions; Christianity being one
    of them. What I was looking for were connections with like minded people. I
    found connections, just not where I expected.

    One day, I was
    meditating and I went within and had an epiphany, god was inside me not
    outside. I read and wrote and prayed and thought and as I did my conception of
    god grew. I was having a discussion online with Neale Walsch, and what struck
    me was Highly Evolved Beings (HEB’s) had grown spiritually to a point in their
    evolution that they became stewards of themselves, others, and everything they
    came in contact with.

    HEB’s are all around
    us, they are always present observing without judgment and with absolute
    unconditional love everything in the here and now. HEB’s don’t need or have a
    desire to believe in god they are as I am now aware that everything is alive and
    divine and is endless.

    Remember, I was sitting in my meeting having a discussion
    about acceptance and what hit me was that being without the belief of a god
    also means I do not believe in evil. I have been saying to others for many
    years that there is no evil only blessing. Acceptance is the key! If I practice
    acceptance I have no need of god and evil because as I understand it the belief
    in god creates separation and privilege which then precipitates the idea of
    evil that causes war, disease, pain and destruction. HEB’s are in fact not
    supernatural as old religion has us believing; HEB’s are different life forms
    that I choose to see or to ignore.

    I had years ago read another book “Journey of Souls”
    authored by Dr. Michael Newton. I became a Newtonian for a short stint finding
    that Newton was a Psychologist that is a hypnosis that regressed several
    hundred patients in between lives recording their experiences in detail about
    being HEB’s and interacting with the living and other HEB’s. On the other side according
    to Newton’s research there are different old religion consciousnesses that many
    are in league with. These consciousnesses are shared based on whatever a person
    or soul as Newton explained, created.

    Example: Being a Christian I would meet a HEB that appeared
    to be Jesus whom in fact according to Newton would be my spirit guide in truth
    and I have many guides as beliefs that I create. Neale Walsch in his book, “Home
    with God” agrees with the Newtonian view that I create whatever vision I want
    to make-up about the afterlife. I can if I want to even create the place old
    religion calls hell.

    These Highly Evolved Beings which we are all have certain
    jobs that we do. Some of us are caregivers, others are builders, scientists,
    animal caretakers, elders, guides, instructors, and everyone has their own
    passion. According to both Walsch and Newton we do everything for the desire to
    experience everything there is to experience, forever. I am a willing participant
    in a game that I am a player in. I know now that historic events or disasters
    like the Holocaust in Germany in the Twentieth Century was a game of willing
    participants having a group experience each soul was contributing something so
    that each and everyone in the game could experience whatever way of being they
    chose to experience. Reality is there were no victims or perpetrators and
    rescuers only souls touching one another all in the name of love.

    As I know it, everything is happening in the here and now.
    Since everything in the human understanding of time in the past is happening
    now I can only assume what my next move will be in the future; nothing is
    written in stone; my belief that I am a victim of god’s will is just that; a
    belief. When I choose too I can place myself into any time frame and be a part of
    any timeline or event in human history in our past that I want. If I choose I
    can experience Jesus’s Crucifixion either as an observer in a crowd or a
    participant like an Apostle or a Roman Soldier. Everything and anything is
    possible when I am a HEB because I can create it and recreate it as many times
    and at different angles as I want.

    I can even choose to live life in other forms not human and
    not on the planet Earth or in different dimensions. Everything is alive!
    Everything has a soul that records the experiences throughout existence

    The truth and the biggest truth there is. There are no
    victims, perpetrators and rescuers. There is no evil or good. Everything is
    love. Everything comes from loves. Acceptance is the biggest truth because
    acceptance is perfect love embodied and shared by everything.

    Some say I must be an atheist or a humanist, or a secularist
    for not knowing god. People love making up titles for everything. It’s easy and
    it’s fun. Most importantly a title will separate me from you so that you can be
    righteous and whole with your souls.

    After I had spoken my piece of wisdom in the meeting a very religious
    woman stood up and said, “You wouldn’t accept me if I got up into your stuff
    and beat you down!”

    I don’t welcome violence nor do I want to attract it. And Life
    is Endless; if you need the experience of taking my life or threatening it so
    that you can be righteous. I offer you my blessings and permission as I
    unconditionally accept your request.

    Neale Walsch constantly reminds me that we are all one; this
    is quantum physics or the oneness principle that all energy everywhere is
    completely one entity. God is a concept a measurement that we humans create to
    rate each other and puts us in a construct that shows us that we are on a
    journey that never ends and always changes form.

    Neale Walsch said, “There are three levels of awareness,
    hope, belief and knowing—knowing is mastery.”
    I know therefore I am.


    Blake L Hayner


  • mewabe

    In my own experience, I have come to understand that love is an opportunity to remember: we remind the other of her or his beauty and innocence, and the other does the same for us. The main problem is that many of us do not want to remember this beauty and innocence: we are too attached to the seemingly flawed and the wounded version of ourselves that we have come to believe is the only real one. And this is how love is eventually rejected.

    On another note:
    Upon reflecting on the diverse cultural and religious traditions of the world, and how deadly serious many people are about these traditions, I remembered what I had understood long ago as a teenager: most of humanity makes stuff up as it goes along, pulls things out of its collective or individual rear end, and then gravely announces that
    such things represent some truth, and demands the establishment of certain long standing rules so that we may live in accordance with those things, those inventions, those creations, preferably forever.

    And so we have religious texts and taboos, dress codes, gender roles and appearances, codes of conducts and rules of etiquette, and endless other forms of thought and behavior control, all of which are, apart from those dictated by pure practicality,
    absolutely ridiculous.

    Creativity is not the problem here. It is one of the ways we entertain ourselves, and it should remain fun. It should be fun to dress up like the Pope or like the Tibetan Yellow Hats or to decide that dyed armpit hair will be the latest fad, or to say that blue is
    for boys and pink for girls.

    The problem comes when people are deadly serious about such made up stuff. We should laugh about all this and have a great time, and play act, because it is what we are actually doing: we are all children pretending that things are a certain way, and ought to be, when in reality everything we think and do comes from our imagination as well
    as from arbitrary decisions.

    Humanity has a lot of imagination…but not enough humor or sense of play to stop believing that the things it constantly pulls out of its collective hat are little more than
    flights of fancy.

    We indeed create our reality…but does it actually make it real, or it is just another way of
    dreaming our lives into being, and if we are just dreaming, shouldn’t we do it
    with a lighter touch, with a little more ease and childlike playfulness?

  • Leon Jackson

    Great article brother Neale. That’s what love is suppose to be about. Looking for and seeing the perfection in yourself, your significant other, and others. We are all made in the image and likeness of God and with that being said there’s nothing around to see but perfection.

  • Morten

    Neal. You are communicating with the devil. Your whole business as a writer is based on a lie. You get information from the father of all lies. You must repent and turn away from him. Tests him! Test him in the name of Jesus Christ. He will tremble and you will be shocked. Repent and do the good works of our true Lord Christ Jesus. God have mercy on your soul. His punishment for false teachers are the most severe.
    “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see
    whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into
    the world” John 4:1
    Do not be so naive Neal! Do not!

    • mewabe

      Please do not take offense, but…did you just land here from the 12th century?
      How is the Inquisition progressing?

      • Morten

        I do not. Inquisition was not Christians. Christians cannot kill or torture anyone. Heard of wolves in sheep clothing? I want to help Neal. He is in big trouble and everyone who believes what he says. If you believe that Neal has spoken to God have you thought about why the message from this god is totally different from the Bible? You think God got it wrong the first time? Wake up! Satan means adversary. He is in opposition to God. He is real. Like Jesus Christ is real.

        • Blake

          Actually Morten, The Spanish Inquisition was a Christian Expression of the love of Christ. People felt that the Jews were Devils and needed to be eliminated from the population because the Jews were responsible for the murder of their Lord.

          The Crusades were an expression of faith also destroying Muslims or the Ottoman Empire that threatened Jerusalem their Lords city.
          Of course the Crusades was an order from the Pope in Rome which many fundamentalist Christians feel is not the true church of Jesus.

          Today’s Crusades against the Muslims in the Middle East today is a war being fought as an Expression of the Evangelical Fundamentalism that is present the Bible Belt in the United States.

          As an Atheist, I practice unconditional love, living responsibly and being in the Here and Now.

          Morten, by believing in Evil you yourself is creating fear thereby being an expression of your own faith. Your’re not wrong Morten; you are what works in your life.

          Thanks for sharing! Many Blessings on your Spiritual Journey.

          Blake .

          • Morten

            Hi Blake!

            To be Christian you must live as Christ-like as possible. It does not matter what banner you kill under, you are not Christian doing these things and you need to repent again and confess Christ as lord. You have many charlatans in christian faith, today also, but do not make the mistake and think that they are Christians. We have enemies of the faith outside as well as inside of the church.

            I am sorry to break it to you, but evil does exist. If you do not see that then you are blind. Jesus said: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6. Jesus talks about evil and wickedness all the time. He is God and He cannot lie.

            I know that because you believe you are an atheist you cannot believe in evil. But being an atheist is a silly position to be in. You cannot account for what is true or not. As an atheist you do not believe in anything, why believe in unconditional love. I thought the whole idea of evolution is to evolve to the next stage. That the most adaptable ones do what they see fit to make sure their genes passes on. How do you get morality from this. How do you get right and wrong from this? How do you get what is true and not true from chemical reactions in your brain? Which brain fizz is more right than the other? You see, you are borrowing christian worldview when you talk about all these subjects. As a christian I get my standards from God, where do you get yours?

            I am sorry if you think I come across as arrogant or a fear monger. What I am telling you is true and there is not one thing you can say that will prove otherwise.

            Blake, do not suppress the truth. You know God exist! I was once where you are now and I feel you. The truth is hard and not wrapped in cotton wool. The truth is that Jesus came down to pay for your sins. The gospel is not about peace for everyone and a global handshake. He came down to save you from sin. We live in times more more pressed by the evil around us. I urge you not to put the blinders on think that evil does not exist. Your only way out is through Jesus Christ and you better hold on to Him because one day you will be naked in front of the Thrown of God almighty. The only one then who can bail you out is Jesus Christ.

            God bless you, Blake. I hope the good shepherd will seek you out:)


    • Stephen mills

      There is no Devil Morten it means living backwards ,or perhaps not in a beneficial way .Clever are Humans at putting meaning into words .Neale speaks of the highest love one can imagine and you call it the devil .Twisted logic as is the word devil !

      • Morten

        But of course Neil is talking about highest love and no evil. He gets his message from the Devil. He is talking with a spirit that he has not tested. How do you know it is not the Devil? How do you know the Devil does not exist?

        • Stephen mills

          Because your highest truth resides in you not from outside yourself. Ask questions, question everything observe the duality nature of the universe .It is a contextual field for you to choose who you are !
          The only question is who are you ?

          • Morten

            You are wrong. How can you know the truth if all you know is from yourself? You can always be wrong. In order to know anything to be absolutely true you have to have all the knowledge. To man can say he knows everything. If you do not know everything you can always be wrong about the thing you think you know.

            I know the truth because God has shown it to me. How do you know the truth?

          • Stephen mills

            Because thou art God . Wisdom is what you seek ,apply your knowledge for sure but not just from a single source and an old one of that . To birth a new world we have to transcend these old teachings .

          • Morten

            You think you are God? Then you are a fool! It is the oldest lie in the Bible. Your source of knowledge is yourself and you are delusional. I say this with love, but the truth is hard and you need to hear it and wake up! The New age movement is based on the oldest lie in human history, the one that caused the fall and death of all things.

            If you continue to believe what you believe now, you will get down on your knees to worship the antichrist in the days to come. It will be the fall of your spirit. I prey to God that He will seek you out and grant you the truth, like I have been found by the good Shepherd Lord Jesus Christ.

          • Chas De Ferrari

            Thank you Stephen. Yes, “Transcending old teachings” is a good start. You truly can’t change outcomes by continuing to propagate old behaviors (based on old teachings). Recall Einstein’s definition of insanity.

            But what about TRANSCENDING ALL TEACHINGS? How does that idea resonate? Are such “TEACHINGS” a characteristic of DIVINITY or are they merely a HUMAN construct?

          • Stephen mills

            Have you read Communion with God Neales book it explains so much of how our old beliefs about ourselves ,life , and its cultural story’s affect our day to day reality and why it’s not necessary to live like this .We are the magicians who have forgotten our own tricks .So we could do with forgiving ourselves and our imagined reality .

            In the end are we not making everything up as we go along ,living from within the illusion !
            Every conclusion is an illusion ,but to know and use it for its purpose that is the secret .So making concious choices as opposed to just living from the choices of others and there cultural stories will be our liberation !
            I guess that means taking responsibility and telling the truth about who is creating the world around us ….we are with tortured logic…..

    • Aleksandra

      My dear friend, I would suggest that You take a look at Your statement
      from many different angles (simultaneously) first, without judgement,
      before creating such complex thoughtforms, based only on Your individual
      prejudice and adopted belief systems. I don’t want to prove there’s
      anything wrong with You having such understanding, but in my opinion, to
      move forward it would be essential to realise and accept, that You are
      the one projecting such mechanisms, characters, intentions and
      fear-based conclusions. This is the perfect beacon for knowing if
      You’re really ‘lined up’ with Your core self – for me this is the
      perfect ‘spirit test’, when the feeling of certainty and safety are more
      real than the ‘mate-reality’ around.

      Trust, love and good
      intentions have never led anyone astray… they’re unqestionable and
      fundamental and no Devil can even reach You in such a state.
      And You
      should consider one thing – the channel transporting the Information is
      never as vital as the information itself – and that is something that
      can be proved empirically, without taking it’s validity immediately for
      granted, won’t You agree?

      …Of course unless You choose to
      blindly follow the religious dogmas – how can You know that everything
      stated in Your Bible comes from God and not the Devil? Or if the
      Information wasn’t manipulated and mixed throughout the ages of the
      Church’s existence? This is as valid as Your suggestion about Neale’s
      source of information.

      Reconsider, my friend, I wish You much love and understanding 🙂

      • Morten

        Because it has been revealed to me in such a way I know it from a fact that it is from God. Do you think it was the devil who sent down his only Son to save his children? hat is not what the Bible says and therefore it is not true. God cannot lie.

        It is not me who claim anything to be true. I have certainty from the word of God. From where do you have certainty that anything you claim to be true is in fact true?. And if you cannot make that certainty then how can you claim anything to be true? Then you can be wrong right? You see, taking a position, where you are the starting point from where you get the truth, means you can be wrong about anything you claim to be true.

        So I ask actually you to reconsider your position. In addition to that I can only pray that you have good soil and that the truth will come to you and grow in you.

        • mewabe

          How do you know that the Bible is “the word of God”? How do you “know” this to be a “fact”? Did you hear with your own ears God dictating the Bible to the original writers, and did you witness these authors write the dictation word for word?

          As long as these beliefs work for you, that’s great. But I would advise you to ease up on the soul saving mission you apparently have embarked upon, as well on your fear of the “devil”. Fear is another form of worship.

          • Morten

            I know the Bible is true because He has revealed it to me through the Holy spirit. How do I know that the words are from God? Because God says so and he is not capable of lying.

            How do you know that you are right? How do you know that I am not right?

          • mewabe

            If the Bible is true, every word of it being dictated by God, should we stone people?
            “Theologian R.P. Nettelhorst added that capital punishment is seen in the Bible for a variety of offenses: Murder, adultery, rape, Sabbath breaking, disobedience to parents, witchcraft, and idolatry.”

          • Morten

            Do you condone any of those offenses? Still, it is important not to take anything out of context. Even so, what you here claim to be true, it does not prove that the Bible is not true.

          • mewabe

            So do you actually believe that God would want children stoned to death for being disobedient to their parent? Seriously, is that who your God actually is?

    • lisemoro

      … can`t be serious Morten? Where are you to live?
      Okay, we ARE within the world of duality by no doubt, I`m the last person to deny it. It IS as a fact.
      But as the Seth-Books(by Jane Roberts) have told: “You Create The Own Reality.”
      Another thing…..The Christ-Consciousness will be UNIVERSAL(and Love is the cosmic essence) …..given any name.
      LOL, Inger Lise.

      • Morten

        I am very serious. I have revelation from God and know that everything in the Bible is true. How do you know that Jane Roberts is telling the truth and not merely interpreting her own reality? The idea that we create our own reality is a lie. The oldest lie in human history on fact. You are capable of creating your own delusion, but not reality. The truth is the truth weather you believe it or not to be true. The truth does not care if you believe it or not! You are obviously buying the New Age stuff that we are all one and love is the only thing you need. Well, you are going to need more than that standing naked in front of our Creator, His Holiness, to be judged. You are not going to heaven through Christ-Consciousness. You have trampled on His Son and you think he will not punish you for that? He came down to earth to pay for your sins with His holy blood and then you are going to stand there and say you believe in Christ-Consciousness? Jesus is real. Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

        Stop reading those silly books, get a bible!

        Morten, I am not LOL

        • lisemoro

          Gosh, I do NOT believe in dogmas or any fundamentalism.
          It is an open minded discussion as to know thus far, and not “The Judgement-Tribunal.”
          It is not for me to convince anybody of anything….just to keep an open mind set all-in-all.
          Well, well, I am learning all the way that`s for sure.
          Me, Inger Lise.

          • Morten

            It does not mean it is not true if you believe it not to be true. You are delusional. You need Jesus Christ if you want eternal life. If not you choose to perish and end up in the lake of fire for eternity. That is the truth weather you like it or not. You know this to be true, but you hate the truth. That is why you have chosen the broad way to hell. I wish that you repent of your sins and turn to Christ. I hope you have good soil, Lise.

            God bless.

          • Awareness

            Dear Morten, I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BELIEVE what you have written 🙂 A reminder for you:

            Let me be clear. Hell does not exist. There simply is no such place. Therefore, there is no such place for you to go.” – “Home with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            The word of Satan and you believe them. He wants you to go to hell. You rather believe a spirit talking to Neal, then believe the Christ came down to save you from sin. You seem to forget one thing. I have the truth you do not. God cannot lie, Satan cannot tell the truth. He is the father of all lies. You think God got it wrong the first time and needed to seek out Neal to get it right?

          • Awareness

            “Awareness tells you not to believe anything, even this Awareness not to believe, but to question, explore, doubt and discover for yourself what is the truth. Cosmic Awareness only indicates and suggests” by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • lisemoro

            Morten, I`m speechless…… cannot believe in the own eyes (that is to read the nonsense of yours, to me it is)…..and out of curiousity (and may the below question not offending you): Please, how old are you ? I`m close to be 70 years old this year. And (so far) The Lutheran State Churches in this country(Norway) have come thus far as to accept and tolerate the most.
            God Bless you as well.

          • Morten

            But how can any man change the law of our God? If the church start to adapt to society, which we know is corrupted because of the original sin, then are not the church also corrupted? By the way, I am not sure if the Norwegian Church is really Lutheran. I believe it is more Catholic than we like to think. But that is only my opinion, which can be wrong.

        • Awareness

          “This Awareness suggest, there is a book by Loyd Graham titled Deceptions and Myths in the Bible; that this book goes into the origin of the stories that have been related in the Old Testament, especially in the Old Testament, which were literally taken, in many cases word for word, or concept for concept from earlier writings. For example, the story of Noah and his four sons having been taken from writings which long predated the stories in the Old Testament and which used terms and names for the sons which were identical to those reported in the Old testament.

          This Awareness indicates that the story of Moses as having been stolen from a Syrian myth that had come down in relation to an entity named Misis. This Awareness indicates that a greatnumber of the stories within the Old Testament were simply the result of the Hebrew priests attempting to create a set of myths and stories by which they could organize their own religion, their own philosophy, in order to form a more cohesive society in those days. This Awareness indicates that the works of Loyd Graham go deeply into finding these earlier stories from Babylon, which was the source of the story of the garden of Eden, through Syrian and other cultures and Indian records and stories of India.

          This Awareness indicates that even the New Testament is assembled from patterns related to stories taken from earlier sources, such as Zoroastrian, Mithrain, Krishna, Buddhism, and Egyptian, and others, in which many verses are literally paraphrasing earlier writings, and many of the stories attributed to the story of Jesus, were lifted directly out of these other writings. The story of Jesus at the well, as one which was taken from earlier writings. This Awareness indicates that it is of importance that entities realize the origins of the Bible DID NOT come from the pen of God, but came from the earlier writings in different cultures and nations at the time these Hebrew priests put this work together. This Awareness indicates that these countries who were plagiarized then became labeled as heathen,- nations whose philosophies were heathenistic, but this was only after their stories had been stolen.” by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT CREATOR!) 🙂
          Bless ALL 🙂

        • Patrick Gannon

          “I have revelation from God and know that everything in the Bible is true.”

          Sorry, dude but this is simply not the case. We don’t have a single original NT or OT scripture – not a single one. Everything we have is copies of copies, translations of copies and copies of translations. The historical record has many copies of scripture that do not say the same things. The bible is full of competing theologies. We have this NT book that is presented as a consolidated view of Christianity, but it’s full of books that treat the same stories in entirely different ways according to the theology of the writer. We mix/match them to come up with a view of Christianity that is not supported by any of those writings on its own.

          Even the scripture in the bible is full of contradictions. Read Bart Ehrman’s latest book “Jesus Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden” and look up the passages he refers to yourself. Some of the writers are outright frauds, such as Timothy – pretending to be a long dead Paul and putting words in his mouth that refute his real letters. Funny that it would be a liar, a fraud, a plagiarizer, who would tell us that scripture is “God-breathed” or “inspired.”

          For an interesting approach, read the entire NT in chronological order. If you think the books in the NT are listed in the order in which they were written, I am again sorry to disappoint you. When you read it in chronological order you can see the blueprint by Paul, the stories from Mark, the embellishment by Matthew and Luke, the final development of Jesus’ divinity by John (as well as the creation of an entirely new Jesus – John’s Jesus is nothing like the man in the other three books).

          Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you do some research, you’ll discover that the people who told you it was the literal word of God were also lying if they were clergy, or otherwise ignorant. And we all know “ignorance is blessed” when it comes to religion!

          • Morten

            It was revealed to me by God through the Holy spirit. Your mind is cluttered by opinions, yours and others. They have no true validity. No real truth. You and others, who do not believe in God, can never be absolutely sure about anything. It can always be wrong. You have reality revealed to you by yourself, I have reality revealed to me through God. You have basis for all your assumptions and opinions through you. I have basis in my Creator. The One who has all the knowledge.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I understand, Morten. I wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself by reading something that might challenge your beliefs. That would be dreadful for a mature person to contemplate. You might be pressed into wondering about such things as this tiny little example of Jesus’ last words:

            Mark: “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice…”My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Strange words from someone who is supposed to be God, wouldn’t you say? I always wondered why he didn’t say, “Myself, myself, why have I forsaken myself?” LOL.

            Matthew who uses Mark as his source agrees: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

            In both of these accounts Jesus is suffering a great deal and he says practically nothing to anyone. In Luke, however, he chats up people on the way to the crucifixion, he chats with the guys being hung on crosses with him, and he’s in perfect control with no hint of suffering. Where Matthew and Mark have a very human Jesus suffering on the cross, Luke’s Jesus is quite divine and fully in control, without a hint of suffering.

            Luke: “Father into your hands I commit my spirit.”

            John: “It is finished.”

            What did Jesus actually say when he died? Why don’t the gospel writers agree if the text is inspired? The original text may or may not have been inspired, but we’ll never know because we don’t have it. We know that the scribes made many copies with many contradictions between them, some because people couldn’t spell any better then than they can now, and some because they thought they were making the texts clearer or easier to understand, and some because they had particular theological axes to grind, and some to counter what became the “heretical” Christian Jewish movements such as the Ebionites and Gnostics, who actually had closer ties to Jesus. Paul’s version won, but that doesn’t mean it was what Jesus wanted, and it’s quite likely Jesus would have had no use for Paul. Jesus apparently lied to Paul anyway, when he told Paul in visions that his return was imminent.

            John’s Jesus is so different it’s hard to know where to begin. In the crucifixion story, John’s primary goal is to paint the Jews as the villains. By the time John was written, the Jews had become the bad guys as there were several versions of Jewish Christianity founded and supported by the actual brother and disciples of Jesus – the people who actually knew him; but those who took Paul’s blueprint for the new religion wanted the Jews out of the picture and so over a couple centuries, the Jewish Christian movements became heretical and the Jews became the bad guys of the whole story instead of the Romans who actually killed Jesus; and the Romans took control of the religion and decided what books would be included in the orthodoxy. You don’t like Catholics, but they chose what would be in the bible. I always love it when evangelical fundamentalists hack at their own roots by going after Catholics.

            This is just one of the thousands of conflicts and contradictions within the scripture. Most are minor, but many have great theological significance.

            Most people want to read and study things that already support their world view, but real knowledge and education comes from pushing beyond that, as intelligent, mature people understand. I’ve read the bible a few times and study it all the time. Read Ehrman’s book and then think about it a little. I’ve read the bible cover to cover a few times and I promise you there’s nothing that says you will go to Hell if you read his book or listen to it on Audible. (There’s actually no Hell, but four words that don’t mean what we think of as Hell were translated to that single word when the bible was translated to English. Hell however is a present from the Catholics which fundies are happy to hold on to).

            It’s a fascinating story. John’s baptism was for remission of sins, so why did Jesus, a divine being, have to be baptized? Why is there a clearing of the temple at the end of the gospels but at the beginning of John? Why are the genealogies different? Why does Jesus go out of his way to avoid calling himself God for the most part in 3 gospels, while John insists that this is the case and builds his entire gospel around Jesus’ divinity – a very different Jesus from the others particularly in his words and stories. Why does Paul say in his real letters that women are equals, but Timothy writing as a fraud pretending to be Paul who died decades earlier, tells us women are second class citizens? Why, why, why… there is so much to ponder about Paul’s new religion; but you aren’t interested in anything that might challenge your beliefs because someone told you that you would suffer eternal torment if you did so, and you were too weak, insecure and lacking in courage to question them, right?

          • Morten

            Look, I think you get it all wrong from the start. I did not get convinced that the Word is from God by studying it like you. It is a gift from Him granted through the Holy spirit. Difficult for you to grasp I know because you do not believe. God will never reveal the truth through foolishness. You think you are wise but you are foolish to believe there is no God. Only those who believe in Him is granted the truth. Ask Him, if you dare, to reveal himself to you. You do that with the intent that you actually want to know the truth.
            Go to someone who knows the Bible in and out. I do not. I do not need to. It does not work that way.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Ah thank you for that. I’ll be sure and let Jesus know that it’s not necessary to understand the scriptures:

            19″Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20″For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven”

            Jesus seems to imply that we are to follow all the laws, and how will we know these unless we study as do the scribes and Pharisees.

            I think I just figured you out, Morten. You’re lazy.

          • Morten

            I do not have to be credible to you. I cannot convince you of anything. That will be up to God.

            When you make it your point that I must be righteous in order to get salvation, only proves you do not understand the Gospel. Jesus said this to the Pharisees:

            “You Pharisees and
            teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You give God a tenth
            of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you
            neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy,
            and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done,
            though you should not have left the others undone either. You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel
            Matthew 23:23-24

            I know, you are probably much clever than I am. You seem to know a lot about the Scripture too. But you are just like these Pharisees. Your cleverness is not what will grant you salvation. Your pride and arrogance is what that is getting in your way of seeing the truth. You have to submit to the Christ in order to know Him. He is the King of Kings and he does not let pride or arrogance see that. Only by faith. It is then only natural for the believer to live as righteous as possible. But righteousness alone will not get you to heaven. That is why Jesus came down and died for your sins. With His blood he made a new covenant with everyone on earth. The Covenant with Moses was over and the Pharisees could not except that.

            I am thankful that you have challenged my beliefs. Days will come when it will be tested more. I am prepared to die for my King. He loves me even though I am a sinner and he granted me with eternal life through faith alone. In the days to come I try my best to walk with Him in His perfect righteousness and serve His will.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “I cannot convince you of anything.”

            That is where you are dead wrong. That is where we differ. You believe, I think. I am very willing to be persuaded with evidence, but the bible is not evidence; the bible is the claim.

            You quoted a passage that mentions justice and mercy, but how just is it to send someone to eternal torment when they live but a short time in this physical matter reality? How merciful is it to torture someone for eternity because they don’t believe what you believe? If you’re going to talk about justice and mercy, start by looking the words up in the dictionary so you know what they mean.

            “Your cleverness is not what will grant you salvation.”

            Who says I need salvation? The whole salvation thing was created by Paul, it was not something Jesus originated. Jesus failed to tell Paul about evolution, so when Paul said sin came into the world through one man, Adam, he was unaware of the fact that there never was an Adam and Eve, no talking snakes, no trees of knowledge of good and evil; no fall from grace, no rejection of God, no original sin. If Paul had really had visions with Jesus, one assumes Jesus would have told him: a) evolution proves that the garden myth was just a metaphor; that it never really happened, and b) Jesus would not be returning within a generation.

            This is the greatest issue facing Christianity today. There was no fall from grace, therefore there is no need to believe the right thing about Jesus in order to be saved. That means there is no need for fear. Can Christianity survive without fear?

            Jesus does not meet the requirements for Messiah that is described in their scriptures. Christians pick passages out of Isaiah and so forth that are in some way similar to what Jesus experienced, but those passages have nothing to do with Messiah’s. In any event, they were looking for a Messiah, not a Savior as they did not interpret the Garden myth in the same way Paul did. The garden myth says we should understand that knowledge can be used for both good and evil. It has nothing to do with being saved.

            Have you read the bible cover to cover?

          • Morten

            No I have not read the Bible cover to cover, but I am reading it now. Still, it is a divine intervention that causes you to believe the Word of God. The sheep will hear and recognize the voice of the good Shepherd.

            You are too wise to understand anything beyond physical reality it seems. Where do you get morality and logic from in chemical reaction in the brain? If you believe in the evolution theory, you are certainly a great believer yourself. The evidence are the same but you choose to interpret them differently. You are desperate to put yourself above God. This is where you fail to see anything beyond yourself and what you yourself perceive to be true.

            The sin in this world is obvious. It amazes me that people think there is no evil in the world and that they wait for the next step in evolution. The world is decaying and so are its people. The more stuff we get in this world the more our hearts hardens. This i progress? No it is regressing everywhere and its because of the Curse. We are experiencing natural disasters, sickness and death. This world will perish and your only hope is Jesus Christ. He will reestablish His Kingdom with His slaves. You have the choice and it has been presented to you in full clarity. You are without excuse in front of the Throne. Choose Christ – live forever. Choose sin – be punished forever.

            You need Jesus Christ like everyone else, weather you believe it to be true or not. I advice you not to let your pride or arrogance get in your way to Him.

            God bless

          • Patrick Gannon

            Morten, I am delighted to hear that you are reading the bible! I once believed many of the things you do until I read the bible and discovered that much of what they told me as a child is not supported by the bible. If you study and research it enough, you may arrive at a similar conclusion.

            You say that it is ‘divine intervention that causes us to believe the Word of God.’ Why then are you here? Are you the divine intervention that is going to make Neale and others abandon their own beliefs and take on yours? If God has already decided who will and who won’t believe, and it can’t be modified by anything we do and is wholly dependent on God’s intervention, then what difference do you, a mere mortal, expect to make? Why does God need your help? If God has already decided who is going to Hell, and he allowed them to be born knowing this in advance – predestining it as Paul would insist – then where is the justice and mercy in that?

            If you were God and you knew before I was born that I was not going to believe the right thing (what you believe), then would it be just and merciful for you to allow me to be born and sent to eternal torment and torture? Isn’t that the height of cruelty? Is your God so cruel and heartless?

            One major correction…. you said: ” If you believe in the evolution theory, you are certainly a great believer yourself.”

            I try as hard as I possibly can not to “believe” in anything. I try to “think” about things, rather than “believe” things because once you believe something, you believe you have the answer and you stop looking for answers. That you are going to read the bible is very encouraging, as it means you are still looking for answers even if you say you already have them. I don’t pretend to have any answers, so I think about things a lot; but belief should be avoided at all costs if one is to enlarge their horizons and come to true knowledge and understanding.

            One does not “believe” in evolution; it’s not a religion, it’s a process. Rational people think it is valid based on the overwhelming evidence that this is indeed the case, and given that it has yet to be proven wrong, while the bible is full of documented errors and contradictions. But evolution could be wrong. It could be wrong if God really is Satan, the great deceiver. Perhaps God really did hide all those transitional fossils in such a way as to fool mankind for his own perverse pleasure – but that’s a description of the devil. I think it makes more sense for those who believe in Bible God to attribute the magnificence of the evolutionary process to God (though I don’t “believe” this – I “think” it’s simply a natural process, based on overwhelming evidence). I’m agnostic, not atheist. I leave open the possibility that there really is a genocidal, sexist, racist, homophobic, hater of disabled people and promoter of slavery as described in the scriptures. It’s possible. I just don’t think it’s very possible; and I certainly don’t believe it. If God exists, I have a higher opinion of him than you do.

            There’s a book Christians should read called “The Language of God” by Francis Collins one of the scientists who decoded the human genome. He’s a Christian who believes that God used the process of evolution to create our world and he’s quite persuasive. Good book, though I don’t agree with all his conclusions. He doesn’t treat religious history with the same level of scrutiny and attention to detail that he treats scientific issues; but he provides a good argument for attributing evolution, and the start of life to God. Science will figure it out one way or the other eventually. Collins marvels at the process that he believes God brought about in order to create and develop our world.

            Read the bible and then we can have some fun; when you have some idea of what you are talking about yourself, rather than just parroting what some other person who wants to control you with fear has told you to believe.

          • Morten

            God has told me to fear Him. All knowledge start from the fear of God.

            How He wants to reach people I do not know. Neither do you. All I know is that when you have the truth you want to proclaim it. I believe that sinners will go to hell without belief in Christ. That in mind, surely you can see I have a good reason to proclaim this knowledge. I would not be a kind man if I did not. Or if I did not proclaim it, I would not really believe it.

            The Gospel has great power. The only Son of God, Jesus Christ, died on the cross for you. Gods only Son, who lived a perfect life, was a payment to Gods satisfactory. He could pour out all his wrath onto His Son instead of us. If you accept this payment you will not be punished. This is the truth. Your analysis of your own reality will never see this. Our human interpretations of reality is not worthy of Him. You have to believe to see, or you will tumble in darkness. Gods intentions are that we have to worship Him. If you came to God by through human means, why would you worship Him? You would worship yourself like you do now. We are here on this planet so that God can demonstrate His awesome powers. One day you will have it demonstrated in full.

            For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified
            Corinthians 2:2

            God bless you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            But doesn’t this paint a pretty pitiful picture of a supreme being? Why would an all-powerful being need to be worshipped? Wouldn’t you say that you are at least as far removed from God as a nest of ants is removed from you? Do you require worship from the ants? Do they need to fear you in order for you to be fulfilled? Why would God need to be worshipped by something so far below Himself?

            John tells us that God is love, right? Would you disagree with that? What is love according to the dictionary:

            love: an intense feeling of deep affection.

            fear: an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

            How do you resolve this? How can a being that professes to be based on an intense feeling of deep affection also be an unpleasant emotion that radiates fear because it’s likely to cause pain? How can God be both fear and love at the same time? How would you resolve this question? Why can’t Bible God have what he wants if he’s all powerful? Either he can’t have what he wants, or he wants billions of people to go to Hell. What does that say about his character and goodness?

            It sounds like what you’re telling me is that God wants you to spread fear and tell people it’s really love. You want to make God a liar, it seems to me, or at least a major hypocrite. Your God is not a very pleasant fellow. Separation from him does not sound like a bad thing. Who wants to embrace fear?
            Further up in another thread, if you look around, you’ll find where I explained where the word “Hell” comes from. I’m guessing you aren’t aware of the real meaning of the word and where it comes from. There isn’t one Hell, there are four of them in the bible, and none of them are what you have in your mind as Hell. You’re afraid of a metaphor; something that’s not a real place, unless you are a Pagan (or a member of the clergy who wants to keep you in fear through lies – because clergy learn what Hell really is in Seminary School, but they never tell you about it in the pulpit.

            After you read the NT, you may come to discover that Jesus never says he is divine in Mark, Matthew and Luke. There is a reference to “son of God” but in the OT this meant a King or a person with special ties to God, or even all of mankind in general; we’re all sons of God based on the original Hebrew. Only in John, the last gospel, do we get this idea of Jesus being God, and even there, you get passages in which Jesus is a very normal human, and others where he is exalted – kind of like what happens when you embellish stories that have been floating around for 60 years or so before being written down – which is what really happened. The gospels and Paul all argue about whether Jesus became divine upon birth, upon his baptism, upon his death or upon his resurrection, and if you choose one of these, you make the others wrong. If you read carefully, there’s more disagreement than agreement over Jesus’ divinity, and what came to be the orthodoxy is based on combining bits and pieces, from each of the scriptures to develop a story that isn’t in any of them individually.

            I’m not crazy about the New Age God, but she is much nicer than Bible God. How bad would it be to have a god who was actually good, who was actually love, and for whom fear was something an all-powerful being had no use for? It’s bad enough that Christians insist that God is fear, drawing upon the metaphorical Jehovah of the OT, and carefully ignoring passages that say the opposite in the NT, but they make Jesus even worse than his dad. At least Jehovah never sent people to eternal torment, he sent them to Sheol a place of permanent unconsciousness. According to many Christians, the “good news” that was Jesus created Hell for us, making our situation much worse than it was before he came. Or is it possible that all of this is metaphorical, and both God and Jesus (if they exist) really don’t have anything to do with fear, and fear is just something other humans want you to experience, and since you won’t face your own fears, you project it on others through evangelizing. It makes you feel good to have other people be as afraid as you are. Is that it? Is that what an all-powerful, all-good supreme being wants and needs?

            Read the whole bible and hold off on the evangelizing till you really know what you’re talking about.

          • Morten

            You know this has nothing to do with reading the whole Bible or not. How come scholars in Scripture believe it to be the word of God and some do not? Can you agree that this whole debate comes down to belief? I believe in the Bible, you believe in yourself, I believe in creation, you believe in evolution. If the whole thing were about the evidence in itself, why are people disagreeing? It would be foolish to say that it is because of intelligence. You have morons on both sides of the pitch, like you have the most brilliant people on both sides of the pitch. History will show that. Is this not a fair conclusion on that matter?

            It is Gods Kingdom. He can do what ever pleases Him. You have no right to question His authority. Have you ever commanded the morning?

            He is all powerful, all knowing and all good and all just. The glory of the Gospel is that Jesus gave God a way to be all loving and all just. He could pour out His wrath (punishment) onto Christ. This way he saves you from His punishment. Is that not love? You have broken His laws and you have to pay for that. If he let you go, will that make Him loving? If someone did you horribly wrong. You ended up in Court, the judge had all the evidence and all testimonies he needed in order to give the criminal a just sentence. It was all set and done. You think. Instead, the judge let him go. Now, would that be a just judge? Would you consider this judge to be good? You have broken the law of your Lord. You have to pay. There is no way around that! You may not like that, but it does not make it less true. Jesus Christ gives you a ticket out. Repent of your sins or die with your sins in eternal punishment. That is the reality.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I just realized that I failed to respond to this, but I think we’ve covered most of it elsewhere. I will leave you this short description of Christianity to ponder:

            An all-powerful being who can create the universe out of nothing, impregnates a young virgin without her consent, impregnating her with himself, so he can sacrifice himself to himself in order to relieve the rest of us from a condition that he placed on us in the first place.

            Isn’t that really what it comes down to? That’s the best an all-powerful being can come up with? I am not impressed.

          • Morten

            You do not think that to create the universe is impressive? Why do you hate God so much?
            What has he done to you? Are you trying to impress Him? He is not impressed.

            But he will not fail to impress you. He will make sure everyone on earth will call Him Christ. I hope before that time you see that He is the only King to worship.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I did not say that creating the universe was unimpressive. I said that for a being powerful enough to create the world, the method he used to “save” mankind is a Rube Goldberg contraption. If a personal God created the universe, yeah, that’s impressive. But impregnating a virgin (without her consent) with himself in order to be born as himself, so he could sacrifice himself to himself in order to free us from a condition (original sin) that he placed on us in the first place, is the most convoluted, screwed up way to get from point A to point B that I ever heard of. This is not impressive at all. If I submitted a business plan like that, I’d get laughed out of the office.

          • Patrick Gannon

            These are all great discussion items, and books have been written about many of the topics you raise. One difference is that I have read some of those books, and I don’t think you have.

            Yes, reading the entire bible is critical. Do you really have any business telling other people how to live their lives when you haven’t put any real effort into understanding your religion to begin with? Isn’t that just a little pretentious? Are you lazy or afraid of what you might find out?

            I don’t think I’ve questioned God’s authority. In order to admit that we’d have to agree on what “God” is to begin with. You said I don’t believe in God, but there are definitions of God that I could live with.

            “Jesus gave God a way to be all loving and all just.” This presumes that God’s basic nature is not all loving and all just. That’s quite a statement Are you sure you mean this?

            I assume that this way for God to be all loving just applies to those who believe the right thing. Still, so confusing. Jesus is God so he has to give himself a way to be all loving and all just by pouring his wrath out upon himself? Hunh? Perhaps a psychologist would be in order for Bible God. This sounds a bit like something David Koresh, Jim Jones or Charles Manson would say.

            Bible God is not all loving for the other 6 billion people, right? So when the bible says “God is love” they really mean “God is wrath” unless you believe the right thing, then he’s OK; he won’t torment you for eternity; and best of all you get to watch those other 6 billion receive their just reward. Seems to me with this description you’ve thrown Bible God under the bus.

            With regard to your discussion of justice… I am a human. If someone does me wrong, they hurt me. If I am the unforgiving sort, as are most humans, then I want them punished for crimes against me. If I follow Jesus’ teaching, then I know I cannot really be hurt by anyone else and I forgive them instead of requiring that they be punished. That’s a very difficult thing for me as a human to do, but some people are able to abide by Jesus’ teaching in this regard. Most Christians however seem incapable of doing so.

            Bible God, however is not human. He is all powerful. He cannot be hurt. Why then does he have a need to punish? He is said to be love and love forgives and has mercy, but you insist that he act like a weak human and punish those who attempt to “hurt” him (even though you say he’s all powerful and can’t be hurt). You say he should do this in direct defiance of Jesus’ teaching that we should turn the other cheek and love our neighbor and forgive others their trespasses against us. None of this makes any sense to me. It makes your God look idiotic to me.

            “Repent of your sins or die with your sins in eternal punishment.” This is another sentence that makes no sense to me. If I’m dead, how can I be eternally punished? What do you mean by “die”? In order to feel pain I need to be alive. If I take my dog out back and shoot and kill him, does it make sense to punish him by beating him with a stick when he’s already dead? Perhaps you meant something else that makes sense.

            Morten, you’ve provided no reason for why I might want to be with God. You’ve tried to make me afraid of him, but given no reason why I would want to spend eternity with him. Even if I believe what you believe, I won’t be “me” in heaven anyway. There’s no free will in heaven. “Thy will (God’s will, not mine) be done on earth as it is in heaven.” If I get to heaven I lose free will, the thing I was punished for inheriting thanks to a talking snake. But without free will, whatever it is that makes “me” who and what “I” am, will be gone, and “I” won’t be “me” any longer; and why should “I” care about that “me” who is no longer the person “I” am now?

            As best I can tell, we’re screwed any way you look at it. If we believe the wrong thing we go to one of four Hell’s (if we get to choose, I pick Sheol), and if we believe the right thing we become some kind of robot-like thing living in a drugged out state of some sort of blissful LSD drug for trillions of years so we don’t notice how bored we are. Gee, I can’t wait.

          • Morten

            I believe the Bible because it is a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses who lived during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies that claim the writings are divine, not human, of its origin.

            If this is not good enough for you than you cannot trust any historical document.

            I rest my case.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Who told you it was a reliable collection of historical documents? What does “reliable” mean, given that it has many contradictions and competing theologies?

            What does “written by eyewitnesses who lived during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses” mean? That sentence makes no sense to me. You claim it was written by eyewitnesses, but few if any mainstream scholars would agree with that. Practically all mainstream scholars agree that there are only 8 books in the bible written by the authors who claim to have written them; and that’s 7 of Paul’s letters and John (but we don’t know which one) who wrote the Revelation. All of the others were written in the names of others – a technique common in those days to give the document more weight – or they were outright frauds like Tim and Pete; who claimed to be people they weren’t.

            If you haven’t studied the history of the Christian church and if you aren’t aware of how the gospels arose from an oral tradition, then you really don’t have a basis to claim that it’s a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses. You are simply taking the word of someone who has a vested interest in having you believe this, and you put no effort yourself into learning what is and isn’t true. Like I said before, you’re lazy. Don’t worry, you aren’t alone. Few Christians actually read the entire bible and even fewer do any research about the origins of their religion. You’re part of a large group of very lazy Christians who find it easier to believe something someone else tells them, than to learn for themselves and see what really is and isn’t true. By the way, most atheists are equally lazy, parroting what others have said rather than researching themselves. Intellectual laziness is pervasive in our society.

            Please cite for me a specific prophecy that claims the writings of the NT would be divine? In fact show me a specific prophecy that claims there will even be a NT. Prophecy comes from the OT, and I cannot think of a single one that prophecizes that there will be a New Testament written in the future and that its origins will be divine – whatever that means. Perhaps you did not express your point well and would like to reword it.

            Morten, all historical documents need to be taken with some amount of skepticism given that history is always written through individual eyes and based on the experience, beliefs, knowledge and perceptions of the writer. The more real evidence there is, which can be supporting viewpoints from other writers and other historical accounts, or actual physical evidence like photos, recordings, eyewitness accounts, etc., then the more weight a historical document can be given. None of the gospel writers claims to have witnessed the events they describe.

            Come on, do yourself a favor. Read Ehrman’s “Jesus Interrupted.” It’s a good read, not difficult to follow and one that is all about the historical NT as opposed to the devotional NT which is what you and most Christians know. If your faith is strong, then it will not be swayed by being presented with other views. Take a chance. Enlarge your horizons. Learn something.

          • Morten

            Look man, I will end this now. You are either ignorant, willingly ignorant or a liar. There is no other old historical document which is more reliable. Not even from the Greek antiquity. You choose to believe a lie or you deliberately spreading lies.

            Ehrman is antichristian.

            Check out Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53. I am sure your cleverness will come up with something on this too. I am not the lost one here. You are. Besides, what do you want to save me from. My own ignorance, perhaps? And so what? The evolution will take care of me right? You and your wise alike can spread your genes and ensure that the future earthly inhabitants are of very clever race.

            Last, I will thank you for testing my faith! My faith has only become stronger and the truth clearer.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hi Morten. Bart Ehrman labels himself agnostic, as do I. That means lacking knowledge. We just don’t know, and we admit it. Ehrman himself addresses the question of whether he’s “antichristian” and if you were fair, and if your faith was truly strong, you’d read the book for yourself and decide for yourself. How could YOU know anything about him if YOU haven’t read any of his works? Someone else told you he was anti Christian, right? You don’t have the courage to see if this is true for yourself; am I wrong? I accuse you of being either lazy, or a coward, or both – afraid to test your faith. Christians used to face down lions, and you’re too scared to read a book because someone told you the author was anti Christian.

            Sorry for the challenge, I’m messing with you; but you did call me a liar. (grin)

            I don’t really understand that bit about evolution, so I’ll let that go, but I’m happy to address anything if I can. Unless you’ve actually studied evolution in school, your understanding of it may be incorrect. Evolution isn’t what fundamentalist clergy say it is. It’s a scientific concept they aren’t allowed to redefine, though they attempt to do so. Evolution isn’t the easiest science in the world to understand. One can decide to think for him/herself, or one can decide to let others do their thinking for them. Seems like a lot of wasted brain capacity to do that…

            Please show me where in Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53 there is any reference to a Messiah. In Isaiah 52 it seems as though the author is speaking of Zion… Israel, and not a Messiah per se. In any event you have to remember that the people writing the NT had the OT in front of them. It’s pretty easy to make prophecy fit in hindsight – you just have to seek out the right words, and in the bible, you can find just about anything to fit a particular viewpoint. Matthew in particular, goes out of his way to adjust and modify his account in order to make it fit with the OT. It also helps to understand the Jewish view of a Messiah. In their view, the Messiah was a powerful King who was going to overthrow oppressors and give Israel back to its people to live in peace forever more. They already had a God and weren’t looking for another one. There was no concept of a “savior” in the Jewish texts – that comes mostly from Paul. Watch for this when you read the book and you’ll see what I mean.

            Now I assume that some member of the clergy told you I was a liar, but let’s look at one of the challenges a post or so back. You claimed that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, but stop what you’re doing right now, get a bible, and look up the first page of each gospel. You’ll see that three of them don’t address the question at all. They don’t claim to be Matthew, Mark and John, or anyone else. We don’t know who they are. In Luke’s case, the author says he is writing based on what other eyewitnesses have told him. Like the others, he does not claim to be an apostle, nor to be some other Luke. He only says he’s repeating these stories he’s heard from eyewitnesses. He doesn’t identify the eyewitnesses or tell us what parts of Jesus’ ministry they were witness to. In a court of law, he’s got nothing in terms of real evidence. We call that hearsay in court, and it has little or no weight as real evidence. It’s clear that he has access to Mark’s gospel for he and Matthew repeat chunks of it, often word for word, but often in different and interesting ways. In addition to Mark’s gospel, he also has his own source(s), as does Matthew. If you study this stuff, you learn about the Q, L and M sources. We don’t have them, but scholars can determine from the accounts that various sources were used by the gospel writers. Keep in mind we have NONE of any of the original documents in the OT or NT, so we really don’t know what was originally written. We have enough different copies to know that there were contradictory versions. If any of it was inspired, it’s the part that’s lost. We can’t say the copies were inspired because they are full of errors and contradictions and that doesn’t seem very godly.

            Consider another factor. The apostles were chosen, it seems because they were poor honest workers. Fishermen weren’t intellectuals. They were the lower class. Although Joel Osteen would probably disagree, many Christians would say that Jesus came to help the poor and downtrodden, and he selected his followers from among them. They were Jews. They spoke Hebrew. There is no evidence that any of them could write, but Jesus apparently could read Hebrew for he is said to have studied the OT. The Gospels are written in reasonably polished Greek, a language a bunch of fishermen and laborers couldn’t possibly have been literate in. No serious mainstream scholars think the gospels were written by really old disciples, after having learned professional level Greek writing skills, even with individualized writing styles. Don’t you think they would have mentioned this to give their own gospels more weight? The Gospels recorded the oral traditions that developed from the time Jesus died in the early 30’s CE, till the 70’s and later; and as influenced by Paul’s letters from the 50s. All these oral traditions were recorded in Greek, not Hebrew. The people who decided which versions of differing copies would be included in the bible were your favorite people – the Roman Catholics.

            Imagine an oral tradition about a Messiah, developing over 50 years in Russia, and someone unknown records the stories in English; people make many copies often different from each other over 100’s of years, and then lose all the originals. A couple hundred years later some of those copies are assembled into a book which continued to change until the printing press put an end to significant changes, and I tell you it’s all literally correct. Will you believe me?

            Most scholars agree that Mark was written around 70 CE, Matthew in the 80’s and Luke and Mark in the 90s. In those days, the average lifespan was about 35, so Jesus was already an old man, as were his apostles. Working people died young; at least one of the gospels tells us they went back to their boats after he died. There’s nothing about learning to speak and write Greek. They simply didn’t live long enough to have written the gospels and if any of them were still around they were probably drooling in their soup. Call me a liar if you like, but understand in doing so that you call countless other very Christian scholars and theologians liars as well. It’s all well and good to do so, but shouldn’t you be prepared to back up your charges?

            Morton, you claim to evangelize for Jesus, but he did not approach people seeking answers to the difficult questions, like the people in this forum, and call them “ignorant, willfully ignorant or liars,” or that they were slaves to the devil, did he? The only people he said such things to were clergy. If there’s anything at all that I got out of reading the NT, it was that Jesus loved kids and he despised the clergy. So Morten, while meaning well I’m sure, you come to this forum with no authority, since you haven’t read the book and you haven’t studied the history, and you haven’t done a critical review of the documents, and you call me ignorant and you tell others such as Neale that they have made a pact with the devil and are going to Hell unless they believe what you believe. Can you understand why it is difficult for people to take you seriously?

            If you expect to convert anyone here, tell me what reason you have given them, thus far, to believe what you believe? I asked a lot of questions along the way, and you answered almost none of them, though I tried hard to address all your questions, but I’m the one who is “ignorant, willfully ignorant or a liar.”

            Do you understand why Christianity has come to be known as “the religion of hostility to the other?”

            Wonder what Jesus would think…. You might get a E for effort, but you went out hunting bear and you left your weapons at home, still in the box, and the bear ate you.


            (Hey, all in good fun! Happy Valentine’s Day)

          • Morten

            You did not answer regarding the evidences we have. Why is it that some people believe and some do not when the same evidence are presented? All writings and testimonies concerning the biblical events are open to everyone. The Church do not try to hide anything. This is not about the evidence! You only interpret them differently from a believer. You refuse to see this?

            You are Catholic? I know you are saying Agnostic, but are under Catholic influence?
            That would explain a lot.

            I do not have the power to convert anyone. I told you before that belief in God is a divine intervention. The Bible makes this clear. All people can do is to get the Gospel across and the rest is up to God. Christ died for your sins. Only way to heaven. I am making this as clear as I can. I can only pray that you will one day. I am sure we can have good use of you intellect to fight for the right side. You would be a great apologetic I am certain!

            Again, it is a question weather you want to believe or not. Weather you have a prepared heart or not. Good soil or not. Jesus Christ showed all kinds of miracles, still people refused to believe. It is not about the evidence! Hundreds of eyewitnesses have recorded the event of Jesus. Would you believe if you saw a photo of him walking on water?

            Do you believe Neale to have conversations with God? In his book “god” is saying that we are all gods, he invented swearing, and you can do whatever you feel like doing without any consequences. Sounds very familiar to me. It is obviously from the Devil. He has been in contact with something very demonic. I have never called Neale Satan. I actually wanted to challenge him to test the spirit he is communicating with.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Morten, I am enjoying the discussion. I think this is the sort of thing that a site like this is good for. Will it hurt your feelings if I tell you the word is “whether” not “weather”? I debate at times with Christians who can barely construct a sentence and you’re a pretty decent writer, so I figured you might care about a repeated error in spelling, even if you don’t appreciate the errors in the bible. That’s actually a good example though. The words “weather” and “whether” would change the meaning of some sentences and scribes copying the old texts made mistakes like that all the time. Most are trivial, but some have a significant effect. Put yourself in their shoes. A scribe was a low-class job. Scribes often couldn’t read, they were just trained to copy the letters in front of them. Many of the originals were written in continuous text without spaces between the words like we use. It could be very confusing. If there was an error already in a copy, the scribe would not know it. If the scribe could read and thought something was confusing, they would often edit the text to make it clearer, but again this can change the intended original meaning. When the orthodoxy began to be debated, scribes intentionally modified some text in order to make it look like one theology was right and the other wrong. I’m not making this stuff up, but no fundamentalist clergy is going to help you research this – even if they were taught it themselves in Seminary School. You have to do it on your own, because it suits their purpose to have you think it’s the inerrant word of God, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

            We’re back to a subject we discussed earlier. You say it’s up to God whether (not weather) one will be a believer, and I asked you earlier why you bother to evangelize if God is going to decide (or has already decided) who will and who won’t come to be a believer? What possible difference would the actions of an ant in a nest make to you, or what possible difference would your actions make to an all-powerful Bible God? You say many here worship themselves as God, but it seems to me you’ve elevated yourself to a position in which you are so important that God can’t possibly get by without you to help him decide who to make believers and who to join the other billions in one of the four Hells. Why does God need your help and what makes you so qualified to help him, given you haven’t even read his book?

            “Hundreds of eyewitnesses have recorded the event of Jesus.” Prove it. I’m calling you out. If you make a claim like this the burden is on you to prove it. Tell me what source you used to provide this claim. I want to see a list. I want to know what they wrote. I want to know if any of their documents are originals. If you can’t back it up, admit that you have no source.

            Why should anyone here believe you if you make statements like this and can’t back them up? And since God is going to decide anyway, why bother? What’s it to you if few more people are going to join the other 6 billion people currently living on earth and going to Hell for not believing what you believe. Why did God allow 6 billion people to be born, knowing in advance they are going to Hell while some number of evangelicals numbering in millions, not billions, will be the only ones to go to heaven. What do a couple more souls matter, when you aren’t going to make a difference anyway? It’s up to God, right? So why are you here? Is it just busy work? God doesn’t need your help, but he wants you to feel useful so he tells you to go and annoy a bunch of people who are looking for a way to God through love instead of fear? What if the way to wisdom is through love instead of fear? What if a scribe copied it wrong?

            What if you read the book first before telling other people they are under the influence of the devil. Did you ever count up how many people Bible God kills in the bible and compare it to how many Satan kills? Keep a tally as you read through the bible. The results may surprise you.

          • Morten

            Thank you very much for the writing lesson. I am serious!:) I do appreciate it! Good example that errors can make a huge difference in meaning. Fortunately God does not make mistakes. If you do not get the scripture or you find so called contradictions, you simply do not understand them. Or, perhaps, you have read incorrect interpretations of different passages, which you agree with.

            If you have doubts or dislikes about the way our Lord conducts His business, that is not something you have to ponder on. It is not up to us to question His actions. He is in full control. He created everything you can see or not see. You are His slave. He owns you.

            Why I do evangelism ? Cannot help it. I am passionate about being enslaved by my Master. He is good, believe it or not. He has paid for my sins, which means He owns me now. I no longer belong to this world. This world will try to intimidate through lies and violence, all things of the devil, but I will be His slave forever.

            You are wrong about the burden of proof is on me. The whole subject really is about whether the existence of the Biblical God is true or not. It is actually up to the oppositional part to prove otherwise. In fact, Satan knows this. That is why we see in the world the huge adversary towards Christian faith. First God told us that He made the universe, because he was before all things. That is why He says He is God, because He is. He has proved to all of us that He is God. The burden of proof is not on Him. You are without any excuse. You walk in His creation and yet you reject Him. It is written in your heart. Also, I am telling you that He exists. That is why He has the right to punish you when do not worship Him. He created you in His image and you belong to Him. But do not worry, He is the best Master to be enslaved by.

            “For from the creation of
            the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood
            through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,
            so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:20

            God bless you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            So you can make any claim you want – such as the one that hundreds of eyewitnesses have recorded the event of Jesus?

            You know, I understand that there are some Islamic passages that indicate it’s OK to lie as long as you’re spreading the word of Allah, but I am unaware of any passages in the bible that say it’s OK for you to make things up in order to evangelize Jesus – in fact I suspect Jesus wouldn’t be happy about that at all. But I suppose if it’s OK to kill in the name of Jesus, it’s OK to lie in his name too.

            That passage in the OT, you know, one of the 10 commandments, something about not bearing false witness… that’s about lying, just in case nobody ever told you that. You called me a liar earlier, but if you can’t support this statement of yours, go spend some time looking in the mirror and ask if Jesus really thinks it’s OK for you to make up things out of thin air to support your belief.

            You might be 100% correct about your beliefs, but I’m guessing you are not going to convince many people here to follow in your footsteps when you make wild, unfounded claims and fail to support them. I’m glad I can help with your writing skills. I’m in sales, so perhaps I can help you with your sales (evangelizing) skills. The most important thing to a professional sales person is his/her credibility – otherwise clients don’t trust us and don”t buy from us. If I lie about a competitor’s product and the competitor calls me to the carpet on it and I can’t justify my claim – I lose the deal. So do you.

          • Morten

            Where do I bear false witness? I resent that. I tell you only things that are in the Scripture. The Bible is my foundation. The Gospel states that Jesus Christ died for your sins. He says clearly no one comes to the Father but through Me. He is incapable of lying. Christianity is not trying to be popular. It is only the truth. We are slaves of Christs. If you do not like this does not mean I am lying. It only shows you live in a life of sin and you need to repent. We all suffer from sin and Christ is your way out of the curse. Where is the lie in that? If you think what I tell you is not true, does not mean I am lying! I have God almighty on my side. Who do you have to back up your claims?

            Again, God has revealed himself to you. You live and breathe in His Kingdom! I do not need to provide you of any physical evidence that he exists. You are of excuse! Give me one shred of evidence that the God of the Bible does not exist. You will fail miserably.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Morten, you said that hundreds of eyewitnesses recorded the Jesus event. I am accusing you of fabricating that claim. Either admit that you made this up, or provide evidence to support the claim. This is a really big deal. If there are hundreds of eyewitness accounts, there are scholars all over the globe going gaga to be first to examine them. Where are these recordings? Even copies will be better than nothing.

            You cannot make such a claim, and expect to be taken seriously. You made it up, didn’t you? Be an adult and admit your mistake and we can go on from there – OR PROVIDE A SOURCE.

          • Morten

            Hi Patrick!

            I got some facts mixed up in all the eagerness to make a point. I was being selfish. I will repent of my sin. Can you forgive me? I will not be this careless in the future.

            This is what I have heard from Pastor Voddie Baucham (also writer, professor and speaker among other things). He is for me a solid Christian who will never tell lies to students. This is what I have heard from him in a lecture. (These are some highlights):

            Luke was historian who collected information from several eyewitnesses. He openly admits this himself. He followed everything closely for some time past. He wanted to write an orderly account. His goal was history and chronology. Luke says himself that this is a historical document.

            Peter says that the events were no myths but they themselves were eyewitnesses. They wrote down the events during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses.

            1 Corinthians 15 Common English Bible (CEB)
            The resurrection15 Brothers
            and sisters, I want to call your attention to the good news that I
            preached to you, which you also received and in which you stand. 2 You are being saved through it if you hold on to the message I preached to you, unless somehow you believed it for nothing. 3 I passed on to you as most important what I also received: Christ died for our sins in line with the scriptures, 4 he was buried, and he rose on the third day in line with the scriptures. 5 He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve, 6 and
            then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at
            once—most of them are still alive to this day, though some have died. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me, as if I were born at the wrong time.

            This results in that at least 301 people were eyewitnesses to the resurrection who were still alive when this was written by Paul! This means that the message of the Gospel is falsifiable. This means the claim of the gospel was falsifiable when Paul wrote 1. Corinthians 15! Yet it was never falsified! Are you ready to repent or what?;)

            Also there has been 25 000 archeological digs related directly to the subject matter of the Bible. Not one of these 25 000 objects have contradicted anything in the Bible. They rather confirm and affirm things of the Bible.

            OK. I for myself strongly believe in the Bible because it is the word of God and God cannot lie. The Bible itself has passages that encourages us believers to test our belief and to test the scripture. Scripture never fails. It is a solid collection of historical documents. It is also poetic in its language. The words of God are life! That gives you goose bumps, right?

            God is real
            Jesus Christ is real
            The Holy spirit is real.
            The Bible is the Word of God.

            they knew God, they didn’t honor God as God or thank him. Instead,
            their reasoning became pointless, and their foolish hearts were
            Romans 1:21

            Patrick, stop fighting and think about it. You know He is real. You know. I know that you know and so does He. You have to believe in Him if you want to come out of the darkness. His children should not be tumbling in the dark.

            God bless you!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for admitting your error. In your zeal to attempt to get others to believe what you believe, you should try to tell the truth or the atheists will eat you alive.

            I would agree with most of what you wrote about Luke. He wasn’t an apostle. He used material from Mark, as well as another source, and from the oral tradition. He has very different ideas from Mark, for example, about how Jesus died and whether he was suffering.

            You quote Peter, and I assume you refer to the Epistle 2 Peter; however practically all mainstream scholars agree this was not written by the apostle. As Wikipedia notes: “The New Testament includes two letters (epistles) ascribed to Peter. Both demonstrate a high quality of cultured and urban Greek, at odds with the linguistic skill that would ordinarily be expected of an Aramaic-speaking fisherman, who would have learned Greek as a second or third language. In any event, Pete didn’t write the gospels.

            Then you go on to quote Paul. This is actually a very interesting passage. Most people think that Jesus appeared physically, in the body after the resurrection, but to Paul, Jesus’ appearance was in a vision, and he implies that the others also saw visions – a spiritual Jesus. Paul was not a proponent of resurrection of the old body, but resurrection to a new spirit body; however this was one point in which he did not prevail.

            Mark has no appearances after the crucifixion. Matthew has Jesus show up in Galilee where “some doubted” which would seem to indicate a spiritual, vision sort of experience, rather than a physical body – who could doubt that? There’s no ascension in Matthew or Mark if we stick to the earliest and most legitimate manuscripts which end at 16:8. Mark however, like Matthew has Jesus go to Galilee. Luke embellishes the heck out of the story with details not provided by Mark and Matthew. In Luke’s story Jesus shows up on the road to Emmaus, outside Jerusalem. He was not recognized. He stops for dinner then “returned at once to Jerusalem” Luke gives us the first ascension. John’s story is different from the others (no surprise there). In his story they stay in Jerusalem, and he eventually ends up fishing with them again. There is no ascension.

            So which is it? Mark – no appearance, no ascension?

            Matthew – Jesus in Galilee where his resurrection was doubted by some. No ascension.

            Luke – Jesus goes to Jerusalem after a side trip, and Luke gives us an ascension.

            John – Jesus stays in Jerusalem. No ascension.

            These “words of God” contradict each other, don’t they? How can all of these accounts be true? If you say something like, well first they went to Galilee then they came back to Jerusalem, then you create a brand new story not supported by ANY of the gospels. If one is right, the others must be wrong.

            We did this exercise earlier with Jesus’ last words, as you may recall:

            Mark: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

            Matthew: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

            Luke: Into your hands I commit my spirit.

            John: It is finished.

            So which is it? There can only be one set of last words. Someone is wrong. You say the bible is the word of God and God cannot lie, but someone lied. Someone got it wrong. You cannot say that the bible is inerrant. There are many examples like this, and even more if you compare with what Paul and some of the other say. Comparing what Acts says of Paul and what Paul says of himself in his own letters (written decades before Acts), is a truly interesting study, as they differ widely at times. Paul tells us in his legitimate letters that women are equal. In letters said to be written in his name later, such as 1Timothy he says he doesn’t allow women to teach in church, thereby contradicting himself in earlier letters, where women hold positions of influence and power in his movement. The bible is full of such problems. Someone else wrote 1Tim in Paul’s name then had the nerve as a fraudulent writer to say that all scripture is “god-breathed.” Nonsense. It’s full of man-made errors.

            Read Ehrman if your faith is strong enough; but if you’re too lazy or lack confidence in your faith to put it to the question, then read the scriptures carefully yourself. When you get to the NT, read the books horizontally instead of vertically. What I mean is, instead of reading Matthew, then Mark, etc. etc. start with Mark, read a bit, and then compare his account with the accounts of the others; then go on to another event, or another story and read the others, and compare them as you go. You’ll be rather surprised at all the differences. They can’t all be right. The “word of God” is full of contradictions.

            There’s an old saying that you should “know your enemy.” Well, since atheists are “the enemy” from your perspective, you should study the things they are going to throw in your face so that you can be prepared to address them, and not get called out on the carpet as I did with your fabricated claim about hundreds of records of eyewitness accounts. Unfortunately for evangelicals, more atheists read the bible than Christians, so they are often well prepared to point out your lack of knowledge in your own scriptures. If you intend to take them on, you need to prepare yourself better. I don’t think there are many participants in this forum who have studied the bible, but if you get into debates on other forums with educated atheists, they will eat you alive because many of them know more than you do about your own religion and your own “sacred” writings.

            Your comment about archaeological digs not disproving anything in the bible also comes from a position of belief and not from research and study. Someone told you that claptrap, and it’s utterly untrue. We know there was no Exodus as described in the bible. We know there was no conquest of Canaan as described in the bible. The earth was not created in 6 literal days and there was no global flood. We know these things with an exceptional degree of certainty. Many mainstream Christians are starting to do with the bible what the Muslims do with the Qur’an and that’s to interpret the scriptures in light of developing science. You find a way to try and make the bible fit the facts, just as they tried to make the prophecies of the OT fit the Jesus story. These things are easier to do in hindsight of course.

            If you had done the study of these things yourself you would know this for yourself, but again we come to the issue of whether it’s better to do the work and learn these things yourself, or to be lazy and rely on the lies of others who have a vested interest in keeping you ignorant. Ignorance is not bliss – it’s just ignorance.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I keep finding posts I haven’t responded to. A lot of threads going, I guess. Most of the above has been discussed elsewhere.

            Do I believe Neale had conversations with God? Well, we have to start by defining what “God” is. Do I think he had a conversation with the being described in the OT as Elohim/Jehovah/Yahweh? No, because that figure is a metaphor for the wrath of nature, and does not refer to a real being in my opinion.

            Did Neale tap into a stream of consciousness? Perhaps. Was his rendition of the stream of consciousness affected by his personal beliefs, experiences, perceptions and knowledge? Absolutely.

            As you go through the bible, you may be surprised to find quite a few passages that support Neale’s ‘we are all ONE’ proposition.

    • Awareness

      “Judge NOT and neither condemn, for you know not why a thing occurs, nor
      to what end”. “And remember you this: that which you condemn will condemn you, and that which you judge, YOU WILL ONE DAY BECOME“. “Rather, seek to change those things-or support others who are changing those things-which no longer reflect your highest sense of Who you Are”. “Yet, BLESS ALL-for ALL is the creation of God, through life living, and that is the HIGHEST CREATION” – “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

      • Morten

        You have no awareness. I am sorry, but you do not like the truth. That is why you fall for the lies. Conversations with God is appealing cause it lets you do whatever you feel like. Who is promoting lawlessness you think? Who is saying we are all mini gods and that we have the power to create our own future? I tell you who. It is the Devil. Satan. The Adversary. The Opponent to God! You do not want the rules of God so you break them and here you have a book that suits your worldview. Do not be fooled!

        • Awareness

          I strongly suggest that you Do not fool yourself 🙂 Another reminder for you:

          But don’t be deceived. Do some critical thinking, and not just
          memorizing what others want you to think
          .” – “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
          Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            Wow, you are brainwashed! I hope you have good soil and I pray God will seek you out before it is to late. When judgement is upon you, you will be confronted with conversations like this when you claim that you were never told the truth. It is in your face, your heart, but you eagerly suppress it in order to continue your indulgence in sin.

            God bless

          • Awareness

            i don’t believe you and what you have written period 🙂 Again a reminder for you:

            “It is a time now when those who are in the darkness will try very hard to mislead the many. It is a time when there are many false prophets. But the way forward is to always query, always question, and always be open. And finally this Awareness would add: Always go into your own heart, to your own truest connection to God Divine and ask to be shown the way.” by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            You wont believe me. In fact you choose not to believe God in order to avoid judgement. That is delusional! You think God will disappear because you close your eyes?

          • Awareness

            I am “AMAZED” by your “apparent” unwillingness to question “primitive” old Belief Systems (BS) 🙂

            Do some research and be more questioning 🙂

            “I have mentioned in several previous books that remarkable statement made by Pope John Paul II. Hell does not exist as a place, the Pope said. Both ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ are (in the words of the Pope, not Conversations with God!)’ states of being.’

            In talks before an audience of over 8,000 on consecutive Wednesdays in July of 1999. Pope John Paul II took a close look at these ideas of heaven and hell. According to L’Osservatore Romano, the newspaper of the Holy See, the Holy Father said, ‘When the form of this world has passed away, those who have welcomed God into their lives and have sincerely opened themselves to his love, at least at the moment of death, will enjoy that fullness of communion with God which is the goal of human life.’”

            “‘Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness, ‘ the Pope went on. Speaking about hell in his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken not to misinterpret the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that ‘rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.’”

            In his own remarks in 1999, Pope John Paul II said that hell ‘is not a punishment imposed externally by God, but a development of premises already set by people in this life.’

            Can you believe that? That is a statement directly from the highest religious authority in the lives of billions of the world’s people, the temporal and spiritual leader of one of the world’s largest religions.

            Hell is a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life,’ John Paul added.

            That is, again, precisely what we have been saying here.” – “Home with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂

            “I inspired Pope John Paul II to indicate to a Papal Audience at the Vatican (July 28, 1999) that “improper use of biblical pictures must not create psy­chosis or anxiety.” The biblical descriptions of hell are sym­bolic and metaphorical.

            I inspired the Pope to say that the “inextinguishable fire” and “the burning oven” the Bible speaks of “indicate the com­plete frustration and vacuity of a life without God.” Hell is a state of separation from God, he explained, a state caused not by a punishing God but rather, self-induced.

            It is not God’s function to administer retribution or to pun­ish anyone, and the Pope made that clear in his Audience.

            Still, the idea of a condemning God has been a useful il­lusion. It has created a context within which you could ex­perience all manner of things, many aspects of being.” – “Communion with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂

            Morten, I invite you to keep questioning and not believing. Do not assume that you have all the answers 🙂

            “I have inspired it to be said that a little “humility theology” is what the world needs. A little less as­surance that you know it all, and a little more willingness to continue the search, to acknowledge that there may be some­thing you do not know—the knowing of which could change everything.

            I say again, not knowing leads to knowing. Knowing it all leads to not knowing anything.

            That is why the Illusion of Ignorance is so important. And so it is, too, with all the Illusions. They are the keys to your ex­perience of Who You Really Are. They open the door from the Realm of the Relative to the Realm of the Absolute. The door to everything.

            Yet, as with all Ten Illusions, when the Illusion of Igno­rance runs away with you, when it becomes your total expe­rience, your ever-present reality, then it no longer serves you. Then you are like the magician who has forgotten his own tricks. You become one who is fooled by his own illusions. Then will you need to be “saved” by another, someone who sees through the illusion, who wakes you up, and reminds you of Who you Really Are.” – “Communion with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            Again, I do not assume anything! I have certainty from the Word of God!

            Are you catholic then? You believe in people who alter the Scripture? Who trust people before God? You think God need men to make His Word better? How naive are you really?
            Please do yourself a favor and run from the Catholic church. They are altering the Scripture in order to make a one world religion. It is antichrist. How do you not see this? It is as clear as day! The Pope is no more christian then the devil himself. They hate Jesus Christ.

          • Awareness

            Dear Morten 🙂 I have no religion. I do not follow any religion. I do not need to. That is because I am not separate from God 🙂 I am also God and so are you. Therefore I do not need to worship or fear anyone 🙂

            I FEEL the following reminder from “Conversations with God” is useful:

            “Religion would have you take its word for it. That is why ALL RELIGIONS ULTIMATELY FAIL.

            Spirituality, on the other hand, will always succeed.

            Religion asks you to learn from the experience of others. Spirituality urges you to seek your own.

            Religion cannot stand Spirituality. It cannot abide it. For Spirituality may bring you to a different conclusion than a particular religion—and this no known religion can tolerate.

            Religion encourages you to explore the thoughts of others and accept them as your own. Spirituality invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own.”

            RETURN TO SPIRITUALITY. FORGET ABOUT RELIGION” – “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            You do have a religion. It is yourself. You worship yourself. It is new age all over this.
            You have been duped. You most definitely need to worship and fear God. That is innate. You know the real God but you suppress Him.

            All you do is having your own opinion on things. You cannot account for any of your claims to be true based on yourself. It is not possible. How do you get any truth from your feelings. How can your feelings tell you what is useful to me?

          • Awareness

            I was wondering after looking through your comments here that you seem to refer to Neale Donald Walsch as either “Neal” or “Neil”. Can you confirm that you are ACTUALLY referring to Neale Donald Walsh? I would like to see you spell his first name or full name correctly 🙂

            Bear in mind that I have no judgement in the matter of your comments on this website 🙂
            Bless All 🙂

          • Morten

            Yeah, sorry. I mean Neale:)

          • Morten

            That is very loving:)
            How can you know that you are not separated from God? And how can you know that the god Neale talks to is the real God? And how can an all powerful all knowing God contradict His own Word, the Bible, and then just pass it down to a guy like Neal? It does not make any sense! Wake up, man.
            Do not be willingly ignorant!

          • Stephen mills

            Hey Neale could be making the whole thing up ,so what if he is .What better way would there be to live .The real god is in your own heart that is the point .
            Everything is made up all books old and new .Every conclusion is an illusion .Every path is going home some more arduous than others .There is no other place to go .Nowhere else to go but Now Here .
            We make it up as we go along buddy it’s called make believe .Evolution moves towards unity not separation the old books and teachings divide and seperate causing millions to believe that only they have the answers and by following them you will be saved and one of the chosen ones .
            We are all chosen as we are part of the life process .The process is the way …..god is the process ….conciousness is the process by which we evolve .

          • Morten

            Hi Stephen!

            Out of love I say this to you: You are being duped and the consequences are very serious for you.

            I Know this New Age stuff is appealing, I mean, hey, who would not like a religion that is all about, love and acceptance? Still, it is not true.

            How can you know any of your claims to be true? How do you know that all the other religions are made up? How do you know that the New Age movement is not based on a lie? How you know that evolution is real? You are not being consistent. You are taking on the New age with less critic than you dismiss the other religions. You behave in the exact same way as any other recipients of false religions out there. You pick what suits your lifestyle. You think you can break Gods rules and get away with no consequences. How foolish! You know there is one reality. You know you are not God. You know you are not all love. You know you cannot be all loving. You know there is wickedness in this world because there is wickedness in your heart. There is wickedness in everybody! Everybody has to pay for our wicked behavior.

            There is only one God that is all loving, all knowing, all powerful and all just. He is keeping records on everybody and as of know you are not in a good place. I tell you this because I hate lies but I love people, and it is heart wrenching to see you fall for this lie.

            Jesus said unto him, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. John 14:6

            God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
            whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

            You have to stop and use your head. God gave it to you so you can think.

            God bless

          • Stephen mills

            What happens if you are blind, deaf and not able to speak what then ? How could you get to your god through Jesus ?

            This just shows the fallacies of such teachings.People have lived on Earth for probably hundreds of thousands of years ! Nobody does anything wrong given there model of the world. We make it up from culture to culture ,cultural myths are passed down through time but are never properly challenged .

            What about the indiginous people’s of the Earth who have no concept of your God and Jesus until they where killed in there millions under manifest destiny and Christianity.

            We are a very young species and we know now that we are consciously evolving .It’s time to take responsibility for the future, if we do not and leave it up to those who think they know what god wants it’s game over.

          • Morten

            What happens if you are blind, deaf and mute? Then you have an excuse for not knowing. You will not be punished.

            It is proven through Scripture and missionaries that indigenous people are aware of God.
            Conversion is only made possible through divine initiation. The words of God are like seeds but life is given by the Holy spirit.

            “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:20

            This means you do not have any excuse for sinful behavior. You are to worship only Him. That is the purpose of your life. We will grant you all your needs if you surrender to His will. He knows what is best for us.

            You cannot take responsibility for this planet or yourself. You have a Master. All He wants you to do is to serve His will. He will take care of the rest. He holds everything together by His hands. We all live under His mercy. He has greater plans for you than the meager ones you have for yourself. You can let all that burden go and serve Him.
            He has already paid for your sins. You just need to repent of your sins and declare Christ Jesus as King and He will forgive you. Let go of all your worries and meaningless things and get real purpose in life!

            “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
            whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

            God bless you, Stephen

          • Patrick Gannon

            Another of your posts that I missed. I would refer to myself as a recovering Catholic. I am an agnostic as I have said elsewhere.

            Are you unaware of the fact that it was the people who started the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) who decided what books would be in the bible? This process occurred over a matter of centuries long after the originals were lost to history. The RCC decided what books and what copies would be included in the orthodoxy, and this continued to vary, though less and less so, right up till the time of the printing press, after which the books, at least in western Christianity, did not change.

            I don’t understand your problem with Catholics “altering the Scripture.” Indeed they did so; sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose – after all everything was hand-written. Mistakes are rampant in old copies. However the bible the Catholics settled on is the bible every western Christian uses with only minor variations. It’s the bible you use. Protestants chopping off their own roots by attacking the RCC has never made sense to me. Sure Catholics “interpret” the bible differently from you, and thousands of other denominations and sects who are all free to interpret it as they please; but the books and final versions you use today were put there by the RCC. If they got the bible wrong (and they did), it means your bible is wrong; and you already said it was the perfect word of God, so attacking the RCC when it comes to the very foundation of your beliefs seems short sighted.

          • Morten

            It sounds like you only believe what the Catholic Church has fed you. Do you know why the RCC interprets the Bible differently? They want to discredit Jesus Christ and put a Pope on top instead of Him. RCC is a demonic entity that you should not listen to. They except evolution and homosexuality. They are now in the making of a one world religion. They are anti Christ in every way. It is sad to see that you are believing their lies. How can you put any trust in these pedophiles? Their idols and rituals and traditions are pagan. Wake up!

            Christ is your only true Lord. Be His slave!

            God bless you.

          • Patrick Gannon

            The RCC accepts (not “except”) homosexuality? Are you freaking kidding me? All the pope did was ask Catholics not to treat them as dirt. He still thinks they are going to Hell and he still condemns them and opposes marriage rights for them. You aren’t up on current events, my friend.

            As I told you before, I don’t “believe” anything if I can help it. What I’ve learned has come from personal study and actually reading the scriptures, which puts me ahead of you, Morten. What qualifies you to speak about a book you haven’t read?

            On the other hand, I don’t disagree that they absorbed many pagan traditions into the church – many of which I assume you follow, such as Christmas and Easter – both from pagan origins. As I said, I’m a recovering Catholic. I discovered when I read the bible, that it doesn’t say what they said it did. In Dan Brown’s “Angels and Demons” I cheered for the anti-matter bomb to destry the Vatican. Aside from the loss of life, I wouldn’t shed a tear if the Vatican disappeared from the face of the earth taking all its evil with it. However, I know what role they played in the early Church and it is foolish for you to chop at their roots, when they gave you the bible that you use to tell me they are of the devil.

            Jesus needs slaves? Is that why we lose free will in heaven?

          • Morten

            Do you believe in transcendental things? If you do not then you are not even qualified to talk or write. Tell me, do you believe the sun will rise tomorrow? If not, show me how you can prove it.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Define what you mean by “transcendental things.” I may have something to “think” about it, but I doubt I’ll “believe” something. I tend to “think” that ‘consciousness’ is all there is and that it could be thought of in terms of the ‘soul.’ I “think” it’s possible that consciousness evolves and that as small parts of the whole we assist or are tools in that process. However this is simply conjecture. It’s not something I know, and certainly not something I “believe.” Science has not proven one way or the other whether consciousness manifests matter, or if consciousness emerges from matter and dies when the matter dies. We’ll know some day – maybe within your life or that of your kids or grand kids.

            Do I “believe” the sun will rise tomorrow? No, not really. I “think” there’s a near certainty that it will do so based on my prior experience, my knowledge of science, physics, cosmology, etc.; but it’s entirely possible that tomorrow it will fail to rise, so no, I don’t “believe” it.

          • Morten

            Well, you have to believe the sun will rise tomorrow. To make the argument that it happened yesterday therefore it will happen tomorrow is begging the question. How do you know for certain that it will rise tomorrow? You either believe or you know for certain.
            If you do not know for certain there is, as you stated, it is possible the sun will fail to rise tomorrow. You then are a believer in something you cannot prove.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, I don’t have to believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Read my answer more carefully.

          • Morten

            You do, because to say it happened yesterday is begging the question. How can you know it will happen tomorrow?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Morten, you haven’t taken a logic class in school yet, have you? You just confirmed my point. Just because it came up yesterday does not prove it will come up tomorrow, and as a result of that I do not “believe” that the sun will come up tomorrow. I have a very good reason to “think” and to expect that it will come up tomorrow, but I don’t “believe” it and you can’t make me believe that any more than you can make me believe the world was created in 6 literal days.

          • Morten

            How am I not logical? To say I confirmed your point is incorrect. Based on what can you be sure the sun will rise tomorrow? To say it happened yesterday is begging the question! How can you know for a certain fact that it will happen tomorrow? Assumptions based on the past is to believe! You think it will rise based on past events! Come on man. That is belief. Do not preach to me about logic when you cannot even account for logic in your worldview. By the way, logic is not a material thing which has evolved over the past billions of years. You cannot pass me a cup of logic. If you want logic in your worldview you gonna have to accept there are things you cannot see. Believe.

            By the way, my worldview can account for logic and uniformity in nature. God made it that way. And yes, it is logical that an all powerful God can make the universe in 6 days. How is that not logical?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Morten you tried to set me up with a fallacy, and I sidestepped it because I didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday. You asked me if I believed the sun would rise tomorrow and I was supposed to say “yes” so you could try and trap me; but I didn’t say yes, I said “no.” I don’t “believe” the sun will come up tomorrow and since that was the answer you had to have to make your little trap work, you insisted that I must believe this, but I never said that. I “think” it will rise tomorrow, based on past experience and knowledge of how the sun works in our solar system, (but with this snow storm on the way, who knows!!!). I think there’s a very high likelihood that it will rise, but I don’t “believe” it, you can’t make me “believe” it, and I never said that I did “believe” it; so your little trap fell flat.

            You need to play such petty games with someone less experienced and knowledgeable.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I wouldn’t say that the RCC has given up on hell, by any means. Pope JP2 provided a personal interpretation of the catechism, but he didn’t change it. Hell is still hot:

            IV. HELL

            1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

            1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,”615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”616

            1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

            So the separation is the big deal they say; the pain and suffering from torment are secondary. That’s hard to envision. Why would anyone want to be connected to something that would inflict such pain in the first place? However, that’s what they tell poor, ignorant people in third world countries awaits them if they use contraception. Then they want us to applaud them for helping the sick starving kids they created – kind of like the arsonist who wants to be a hero putting out the fire he started.

            Here’s what Hell is: Hel was the German word for the pagan Norse underworld – you know Thor and his hammer. That word was used to translate four other words into English. “Hell” was used to replace the original words:

            Sheol – found throughout the OT. It means grave, dead or permanent unconsciousness depending on the context. It was not a place of punishment, though some would say that in the end towards Daniel such thoughts were creeping in. Everyone good and bad alike went to Sheol. If Bible God wanted to punish you he did it in this life or he punished your offspring “to the third and fourth generation.” He did not punish you in Sheol; you were basically dead.

            Gahanna – mentioned by the RCC Catechism above was used by Jesus 11 times. He always used it metaphorically because it was a real thing. Gahanna was the Jerusalem town dump where sacrificial remains from the temple were dropped along with all the trash from town. It burned continually with the “turning worm” of smoke drifting through the valley and the “gnashing of teeth” of animals that ate the remains of butchered livestock. The RCC and most fundamentalists and evangelicals want this taken literally as a real place, but Jesus himself usually says doing such and such is “like” being thrown in the dump. For a Jew at that time, the worst disgrace upon death would be getting thrown in Gahanna rather than getting a proper burial. The Jews of the time, to whom Jesus was speaking, understood the metaphor. In any event, the dump’s closed.

            Hades – gotta love the pagans. Hades, the overlord of the underworld was the brother of Zeus and Poseidon, so if Hades is real, so are they. When Paul’s blueprint for a new religion beat out the Christian Jews, they took the message west where “Greeks” (westerners) understood the pagan Hades, and they spoke of that instead of Sheol. Hades developed layers and the bottom layer was

            Tartarus – which is apparently reserved for Satan and his buddies.

            Please do not take my word for this – research it yourself.

            So in the old days when we died, we were just dead in Sheol, but after Jesus came, we had to believe the right things and do the right things or suffer eternal torment in one of the four Hells. I’m not sure how this was “the good news” or how our situation improved with an eternal torment we did not have to worry about, prior to his arrival.

            The Hell we have today is none of this. It’s non-biblical, it’s Dante’s Inferno and Milton’s Lost Paradise and as much fear as the church could drum up to empower itself. The thing is, clergy learn all this in Seminary school, but do they ever speak of any of this in the pulpit? Can Christianity survive without fear? That’s what New Age God is attempting to do, and it’s a step in the right direction, but it will run into the same problems I suspect.

  • Roger Stockham

    Oh wow – the Pain: That so many of you got sucked in to interacting with the moron Morton really depresses me about the integrity and clarity of those participating in this conversation.

    • Awareness

      Dear Roger Stockham 🙂 I find it useful to respond to those who still cling to “primitive” old Belief Systems (BS) 🙂 I see it as a wonderful opportunity for remembrances not just only for the “other” but also for myself 🙂

      “Be clear that you are never doing anything for another. Memorize this statement: Every­thing I do, I do for myself.

      That is another of the most important things you could ever come to understand. I will, therefore, repeat it.

      Everything I do, I do for myself.

      That is God’s truth, as well as yours. The only difference is that God knows this. There is no interest other than self interest. That is be­cause the self is all there is. You are One with everything, and there is nothing that is not you. When you are clear about this, your definition of self-interest will change.” – “Communion with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

      • Jana

        Dear Avareness,
        Neal’s books and your thoughts are great both.
        Thank you!

        • Awareness

          The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂
          Bless ALL 🙂

    • Stephen mills

      It’s fun no damage is been done we all need to lighten up me included especially me at this moment as I tend to take things far to seriously .Hey we could do with some Marko magic ,food for the soul …Are you out there Marko ?

      Love is all there is …..even fear is an outgrowth of love …..did Neale say that Awareness ? Which book, page number come on boy your slipping up ….only kidding old chap …..good to reàd your rememberances .

      • Awareness

        Dear Stephen Mills 🙂

        “Love is all there is” is in book 1 of “Conversations with God” 🙂

        “The Laws are very simple.

        1. Thought is creative.
        2. Fear attracts like energy.
        3. Love is all there is” – “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
        Bless All 🙂

  • mewabe

    Morten, did you come to this site with a genuine desire to “save” Neale from “hell” and “damnation”? Do you seriously believe that Neale will turn around and burn his books and “repent” because of what you stated according to your belief system?
    Or are you attempting to have a conversation, to validate your beliefs? And if this is the case, why would you need to have your beliefs validated through debate?

    Do you have some insight into what you are truly seeking? It may help you to know what actually motivates you.

    • Awareness

      Thank you mewabe, great perspective 🙂 Your comment resonates with my HEART FEELING 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

  • Georges Dupont

    I think it’s real sad to see people always quoting the bible and speaking about Jesus, and saying that if you don’t share their belief you will burn in hell. They know nothing about Jesus. Jesus was a spiritual master who was watching the world with his heart, and asking us to go beyond appearance, texts and doctrines. That’s why there still so much religious wars : people don’t feel love with their heart, but are only attached to theirs dogmas.

  • Patrick Gannon

    Wow that was fun to catch up on. Competing scriptures: CWG vs the Bible. LOL. I can’t believe CWG is being quoted as though it were holy scripture. Well, actually I can believe it. Most unfortunate, as it will eventually end up being used just as our friend Morton uses the bible to separate and divide.

    As I have mentioned before, TGC/CWG has cooperated with other like minded folks in creating a new God, henceforth referred to by me as New Age God, who joins Bible God and Allah God in the ongoing Abrahamic battle for supremacy. She’s a much nicer god than Elohim/Jehovah/Yahweh, but she’s still a limited personal god who will not be accepted by the likes of Morton and other believers.

    Study consciousness. I suspect that’s where the real answers lie.

    • Awareness

      Patrick Gannon wrote: ” I can’t believe CWG is being quoted as though it were holy scripture”.

      Dear Patrick Gannon, lets take a look at what “Conversations with God” itself says regarding your statement above about taking it as “holy scripture”:

      GOD: “I said, besides, I could be wrong. Oh, my goodness… you’re not taking this all as gospel, are you?

      NEALE: “You mean I’m not supposed to put any stock in this dialogue?”

      GOD: “Oops, hold it. I think you’ve missed a big part of all this. Let’s go back to Square One: You’re making this all up.”

      NEALE: “Oh, well, that’s a relief. For a while there I thought I was actually getting some real guidance.”

      GOD: “The guidance you are getting is to follow your heart“.

      Listen to your soul. Hear your self. “Even when I present you with an option, an idea, a point of view, you are under no obligation to accept that as your own. If you disagree, then disagree.” That is the whole point of this exercise. “The idea wasn’t for you to substitute your dependency on everything and everyone else with a dependency on this book.” The idea was to cause you to think. To think for your self. And that is who I Am right now. I am you, thinking. I am you, thinking out loud.”

      NEALE: “You mean this material is not coming from the Highest Source?”

      GOD: “Of course it is! Yet “here is the one thing you still cannot believe: you are the Highest Source.” And here is the one thing you still apparently do not grasp: you are creating it all —all of your life—right here, right now. You… YOU… are creating it. Not Me. YOU.”

      So Patrick Gannon I feel it is very clear from the quotes above that “Conversations with God” does not claim to be a new “religion”. It is clear also that what “Conversations with God” suggests we do is to look within ourselves for answers and not outside. Because we are the “HIGHEST SOURCE” each of us 🙂 There is nothing wrong with quoting any book including “Conversations with God” generously 🙂 These quotes should be seen merely as “pointers” to cause us to look within for answers. It is also clear that “Conversations with God” does not want us to be dependent on it for answers. And I quote again:

      The idea wasn’t for you to substitute your dependency on everything and everyone else with a dependency on this book.” – “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

      • Patrick Gannon

        If you treat it like holy scripture by quoting it in this way – as though the text is authoritative, it will become holy scripture. The books of the bible did not start off as holy scripture either. They were simply stories and letters assembled into a book which then became “holy.” I think you’re doing the same thing to CWG.

        To confront a bible-toting (but probably not bible-reading) fundamentalist with “scripture” from another bible (CWG) which is essentially what you did to our buddy Morten, is like quoting the Qur’an to contest the bible. A better approach, in my opinion, is to try and get him to actually understand his own religion. But that’s just my opinion.

        As for creating a new God, I’ve been reading Neale for years, and he almost always presents “God” as a personal god, one with needs and desires and limitations just like Bible God; but one who is more feminine than Bible God or Allah God and certainly one who is much nicer. He uses the word “deity” at times. Deities are designed by humans and Neale designed his own – one supported by others in the New Age business/religion.

        Study consciousness. If there’s an answer to all this, that’s where I think it will be found.

        • Awareness

          Dear Patrick Gannon, I feel you have read my message but somehow have not understood it 🙂 Which part of “you are the Highest Source” have you not understood? That to me is as clear as night and day 🙂

          This reminds me of Abraham (SOURCE ENERGY!) channelled by Esther Hicks who says “words don’t teach” 🙂 You are reading my message but not understanding my meaning at all 🙂

          We are likely “vibrating” at different frequencies and you are apparently exchanging messages with me but not “hearing” me. Neither of us is superior or inferior by the way. We are just simply unique in our oneness 🙂

          Why should I get Morten to understand his religion when I absolutely do not believe in it? That makes no sense to me at all 🙂 Rather I feel an approach that serves me is simply to explain my own perspective (and if necessary then support my perspective with quotes) 🙂

          “Conversations with God” also talks about “Consciousness”:

          “You are all Aspects of Being, simply parts of What Is. Each part has the consciousness of the Whole imbedded within it. Every element carries the imprint.

          Awareness” is the experience of that consciousness being awakened. The individual aspect of the ALL becomes aware of Itself. It becomes, quite literally, self conscious.

          Then, gradually, it becomes conscious of all others, and then, of the fact that there are no others—that All is One. Then, ultimately, of Me. Magnificent Me!” – “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂

          That “Magnificent Me!” is the ALL the SELF 🙂

          There are other sources which speak in a similar way as “Conversations with God” which I can suggest for you to investigate:

          1. Abraham channeled by Esther Hicks.
          2. BASHAR channeled by Darryl Anka.

          I have no need for you or anyone else to agree or disagree with me or the teachings in “Conversations with God” 🙂 I am here merely participating and enjoying the exchange of ideas taking place on this website by blessed Neale Donald Walsch 🙂 You are free to walk your own soul path just like myself 🙂

          Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Hey, to each his own, Mr. Awareness. I too am here to participate in the exchange of ideas. What fun would it be if we all agreed with each other? One of the conversational limitations with this site in my opinion, is the people spouting back Neale’s words rather than using their own, particularly since most who participate here have already read at least some of the books.

            I cringe every time I hear Neale say something like “CWG tells us..blah, blah.” or, “I came to understand through CWG that… blah, blah… ” It’s absolutely no different from saying, “The Gospel of John tells us… blah, blah” or “I came to understand through Isaiah that… blah, blah… There’s no difference. Neale treats it like holy scripture and I think this should be avoided, particularly when responding to others who have strong beliefs based on other “holy” and “sacred” scripture.

            You aren’t the only one attempting to turn CWG, into scripture. Just like the writers of the bible, what gets put on paper from the flow of consciousness is very much affected by the writer’s experience, beliefs, perceptions and understanding. Had the original documents in the bible been understood as works of men attempting to get certain messages across, we wouldn’t have this problem in the first place. Once you make something “sacred” and “holy” it becomes, counterproductive in my opinion.

            From my perspective Neale has done this for years, whether he intends to do so or not. I think it will result in immediate push-back from someone else who believes that it is only their scriptures that hold the truth. Therefore, I think it makes more sense to investigate what truth they think their scriptures offer and insert the lessons of CWG as potential alternatives to what the believer has been told. To spout your own beliefs back at them in a battle of beliefs seems counterproductive, but that’s just my opinion. Muslims and Christians have been doing that for centuries and I see nothing pulling the two together as a result.

            Perhaps his beliefs are right! Unless one has studied the source material upon which his beliefs are based, a person cannot be justified in rejecting them out of hand. Have you studied the bible? Are you qualified to question his beliefs, or only to spout your own beliefs in response to his? Doing so hasn’t helped bring Christianity and Islam together; is it likely to bring New Age Religion and Christianity together? I doubt it.

            I’ve engaged Morten and am delighted that he is going to actually read his scriptures cover to cover. That’s great news. Perhaps after he does so he can read CWG in a new light and take its beneficial advice for personal fulfillment where applicable.

            Don’t you have a name, Mr. Awareness? Why do you hide behind a superficial label?

          • Stephen mills

            Hi Patrick I very much enjoy reading your posts ,your knowledge of the bible is extensive ,I have never read the bible ?
            It,s an old book ,millions nay billions believe in these old scriptures (books). The world is evolving very slowly is it not .Billions live in poverty ,war and greed are the norm on our television screens and in our newspapers every day ?
            Have these old books teachings brought us as a human race closer together or further apart . Do they not teach of humans seperate from the divine conciousness ?

            I see something in Neales books that trancends the teachings of yesterday’s god and gives hope of raising consciousness to birth a newer world based on love ,freedom and sharing ,unity and seeing the divine in each other .

            Remember ours is another way not the only way .Organised religion teach that there’s is the only way and they kill in the millions through history to justify there superiority .But how can one be superior when acting like that.

            It’s about time Humanity had access to some new thoughts .But your right lets not make this a new religion but to to get you to look within and have your own conversation as Neale has always stated .

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you Stephen, Reading the bible can be a life-changing endeavor. It certainly changed mine. I was and am a ‘seeker’ and I like to play devil’s advocate sometimes in order to test ideas and get at the other side of an issue. I was quoted bible passages calling me a dog many years ago, but when I looked up the passages later, I discovered that the words were spoken by Jesus to the clergy and the person who called me a dog with this scripture was part of the clergy. I could have had a field day with him, instead of walking away with my tail between my legs. So I read the book to make sure that didn’t happen again.

            As a recovering Catholic I was scared to death of Hell, and so I wanted to see what the bible really said about it. Surprise! Not what they told me as a kid! Then I read it again. Then again (last one was a Jehovah Witness version which is probably truer to original translations than King James), and finally I read the NT in chronological order rather than the order in which the books are placed in the NT (google Marcus Borg’s books) – which tells a rather different story when looked at from that perspective. The more I studied it, the more I wanted to know. It’s become a life hobby. I’m actually less hostile to it than I used to be, because it’s a fascinating thing to study and I’ve barely cracked the surface.

            I read CWG in between readings one and two and so I took out a highlighter the second time around and highlighted things in the bible in which God was portrayed as “good” or in some way similar to Neale’s New Age God. Actually I started highlighting good and bad, but had to give up on bad as I went through too many markers. Unfortunately there wasn’t a lot of good; but there are some very spiritual passages that tell us that some of the writers really were describing the same ideas as Neale describes.

            I think I have been able to speak with Christians and get at least some of them to think more deeply about their faith because I can tell them things about their own religion and their own sacred scripture that they don’t know. Everyone claims to read the bible, but a couple paragraphs carefully chosen by the clergy in Sunday service isn’t reading the bible.

            In the OT, you have to skim the endless ‘begats,’ but the stories of incest, rape, subterfuge, war, even light porn (see Ezekiel chapter 23), make it less cumbersome than you might think. Take King David who wanted to make it with his neighbor’s wife, so he sent his faithful neighbor into battle and had his general bring the charge up to the enemy’s, walls and then rapidly fall back, leaving Dave’s girlfriend’s husband with his butt hanging in the breeze and the enemy took him down. Very clever. Perhaps that’s why he was chosen to be King! It’s never explained why both of them weren’t stoned for adultery. I guess it’s good to be the King. How about getting Daddy Lot drunk so his daughters could take turns screwing him? Gen 19:33 Entertaining stuff. Just read a little every day. It takes me about a year.

            There is much I admire in Neale’s books, and some wonderful advice for how to live one’s life. Great advice can also be found in the bible, believe it or not. The trick, I think, is to focus on those things, and stay away from the idea that texts are somehow sacred and holy. I would recommend Bart Ehrman’s book, “Jesus Interrupted” to Christians who are really interested in how the NT came to be and the conflicts within it.

            I think there’s a subtle movement underway in mainstream Christianity – certainly not the fundamentalists who are doubling down right now given that their hold on “truth” has been shot down by science. More Christians are starting to look at how they should interpret the bible in light of developing science. They are trying to make Genesis “fit” the science, since they know God didn’t place those fossils there to fool us. They recognize that evolution is a real process and need to figure out how to work it into their belief system. This creates an opportunity to think deeply about the very core of Christian belief, because if evolution is real, the garden story is myth, and that means no fall from grace, no original sin, no need for salvation, no need to believe the right thing about Jesus, no need for fear. And the all important question is – can Christianity survive without fear? Can it become a movement of followers of Jesus and leave salvation in the dustbin of history? One can only hope so. They had to admit the earth goes around the sun, so all things are possible in time. Is the solution to give them a New Age God? I don’t think that will work, but some are trying to do so; but it’s certainly one possible approach (particularly if it sells books and other programs).

            A great metaphor for Bible God I heard from an enlightened Christian recently was that Bible God is a metaphor for the wrath of nature and the natural world, which the primitives didn’t understand, but which we do today. Included in this is the genocidal rage and wrath and fury that can come over mankind for reasons we still try to understand. At that time, it was a force that was as powerful and destructive as what they saw nature do with floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, diseases, etc. and so I think they figured that this “genocidal wrath” that infected men, had to have come from God. We know today that just as there are natural causes for natural events, there are reasons we act as we do, given the stage of evolution we’re at now. The question is whether we will continue to evolve, or if we’re going backwards.

            Feeling “wordy” on a Friday afternoon, so my apologies for the long essays today! Have a great weekend. A Mr. Jack Daniels is calling my name…

          • Awareness

            If a particular Belief system (BS) is not in tune with my HEART (natural guidance system) then I will most certainly question it and “spit” it out 🙂 If Neale Donald Walsch chooses to use quotes from “Conversations with God” to support his perspective then he is free to do so. This website was inspired from “Conversations with God” 🙂

            Patrick Gannon wrote: “You aren’t the only one attempting to turn CWG, into scripture.”

            If you have been following my posts from the very first days you will see that I quote many sources and not just “Conversations with God” 🙂 I have quoted Eckhart Tolle, Esther Hicks, Darryl Anka, Will Berlinghof (channeler for Cosmic Awareness), Patricia Cota Robles, ALAJE the pleiadian, Steve Rother (Channeller for the GROUP), Heaven Letters etc. I have even quoted news sites such as RT 🙂 Are you now going to claim that I am also attempting to turn those into scripture? Whenever I see that a quoted source is expressing nicely what I am wishing to express in that moment then I use it 🙂 Why reinvent the wheel? Even the computer you are using now incorporates knowledge from many sources 🙂 I sometimes present my perspective with a quoted source as well 🙂

            The name “Awareness” which I use here is inspired from the energy “Cosmic Awareness” channeled by Will Berlinghof 🙂 I also have spiritual reasons for using this naming. In my view a name is a limitation and does not describe who and what we really are. If I accept that I am All That Is (GOD) then a name is meaningless 🙂 The essence of who and what we really are is VAST and INFINITE. A name is “like” a grain of sand in a beach or a drop of water in the ocean 🙂 Besides a name can be changed at any time. Your name Patrick Gannon which you use here can be changed at any time. I would have to take your word that it is really your name at this moment. But there is the possibility that it is just a temporary name 🙂 We are living in an illusion and as “Communion with God” states:

            “Every conclusion you come to about the Illusion is, therefore, based on the Illusion. And so, every conclusion is an illusion.”

            A name is therefore an illusion. Infact we cannot use words based on the illusion to describe the essence of who and what we really are. We can use names merely as “pointers” 🙂 Since you refer to “Consciousness” I would suggest you study the works of Eckhart Tolle. He has spoken a lot about “Consciousness” 🙂

            For this format I intend to continue with the “Awareness” name because it points more strongly to who and what I really am 🙂 I NEED NOTHING from you. You go your way and I go mine 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for sharing.

  • Gina

    Yes. Love is returning others to their natural self, preferably, before falling too deeply into who they now think they are. Always, the self that is being or speaking or doing angry, ugly, righteous , attacking, paranoid etc., and not fully giving and understanding is not the natural self. Those angry, attacking thoughts are not the truths in hindsight and are the cause of many regrets if I happened to also voice them. Just a good nite’s sleep is enough to realize they were not my true feelings. The person most appreciated is the one who, in those heated confrontations, just chills out and gives me the look that says, “don’t wanna talk right now.”

  • Chas De Ferrari

    Can’t wait for the continuation Neale. Hopefully it will answer the posed question,

    I’m new to this site, this conversation. I’ve read this entire string from start to Gina’s comment below. My inclination is to ask what the heck does the bulk of the apologetics gymnastics contained herein have to do with setting the tone for a “NEW… AND HOPEFULLY IMPROVED… GLOBAL DISCUSSION?”

    In all honesty, what I feel when I read much of this material is a lot of REACTIVITY and RESISTANCE coming from PERSONAL PROJECTION. There is a health dose of DESPERATION and ATTACHMENT gushing up to the surface from the depths of these dialogues.

    Is it wise to bring religion, politics, ethics, morality, sin, evil, hell, heaven, redemption, salvation… and the list goes on and on… into this forum?. Perhaps we should try and determine what exactly is appropriate subject matter and context for a “New Global Conversation” and do our best to remain within agreed parameters.

    For example, the practice of attacking another’s point of view is generally considered to be an inflammatory one. Now I understand that there may be great blessings to be gleaned from noting and processing all of one’s emotional reactivity brought on by conversation of this type. That’s nice… BUT!

    Do you all desire, chose consciously to continue in this mode of exchange or would it be preferable to MOVE FORWARD IN A COMPLETELY, TRULY NEW AND EVOLUTIONARY MANNER? If your collective answer is continue as begun, I’d say the chances for a significant “NEW… AND HOPEFULLY IMPROVED… GLOBAL DISCUSSION” are SQUAT!


    Abundant Blessings, Much Light and Love…

  • Awareness

    “God said:

    When life seems to be too much for you, recline, or take a walk. Get your mind off the exigencies of life for a while.

    Despite your sense of it, life is not urgent. Life goes on. Whether or not you are as you want to be, whether or not life is what you want it to be, life keeps going on and takes you with it. You are never out of life. There is enough life for all. On Earth or in Heaven, you are alive and well regardless of what the world you experience looks like to you and regardless of what the world seems to think it is or is not. You are the perceiver of your life and the goal-setter. Set the dial of your life to encouragement and expand your perception.

    Life comes to you. It may come as a feast. It may come as a crust of bread. Life is for you no matter how bounded it looks like to you. In truth, life is unlimited. Life is your work-place, and it is your playground, and it is, despite your perception, a Holy Place. Angels in human form live on Earth. This is the Truth. Earth angels don’t need wings to fly, for they have souls that can take them anywhere and everywhere. Earth angels are not relegated solely to Earth. Earth angels have hearts and minds that can fly anywhere and everywhere with dispatch and take you here and there with or without your awareness. There is no such thing as at a distance, although distance seems real enough to you. There is no distance, yet you take a journey from here to here and everywhere and nowhere, and I go with you.

    Consider that it is not life that disturbs you but your projected thoughts about life. Your assessments about life please or perturb you. You are the reporter and announcer of what life is like for you. Come from a different vantage. Step up a step to see what you see. Or, just live life and let go of your day-by-day analysis of it.

    Opinions are only opinions, and opinions vary. Your own opinions vary. In one day, you may go up and down the scale you assign to life. What if life is okay whatever your mind may say? Is winter not okay? Does winter not prepare for spring? You could say that nothing is happening in winter. You could say there is all that snow and cold winds and slippery ice. Yet what a treasure winter is holding! Winter isn’t bleak. It is full of wonders, and it serves the spring that is to come. In the same way, autumn gets the Earth ready for winter.

    Maybe you don’t like rain, yet rain serves its purpose. Everything in your life also serves its purpose, whether you like it or not. Pause to consider what beautiful seasons life prepares for you. Only in the overt world do you see ups and downs. You come to conclusions often based on fear. You get caught into fear and judgment, and so you judge your life and find it wanting.

    You may feel that life doesn’t play fair. Beloveds, are you playing fair? Bend a little. In deference to life, knuckle down to a higher opinion of life. Life guarantees you life as it is apportioned to you. It doesn’t guarantee you all your preferences. Did you think life was supposed to? Did you think life was failing you when it did not fulfill all your desires as you would like?

    Look up, beloveds. Your life is on course. Give your life a break. Welcome life and wish it well. Desire a new resilience and engage in life. You have to budge from a background of right or wrong. What if everything is really okay and life is happier without your denouncements of it?” – “Heavenletter #5195 The Dial of Your Life, February 14, 2015 ” 🙂
    Bless ALL 🙂

    • Morten

      God did not say this! What he said is in the Bible! Stop spreading lies!

      • Awareness

        “BE FREE OF EARTH-SUPERSTITION AND EARTH-BELIEF SYSTEMS. Don’t be addicted to cults like Religions and other control orgainizations on Earth. They distort your natural spiritual view on life and are only interested in your money and your submission. All you need is within, in your Heart. It is called LOVE. Jesus and many other spiritual teachers are telling this since thousands of years. Jesus or any other spiritual being has nothing to do with earth religions and power-greedy priests and they never told anybody to be a slave of religions. All we say is go within and meditate on a radiating heart of love. Going within is the most important journey you can take. This is a journey to the truth, a journey to the source of all sources. This is the place where you can find spiritual power and wisdom, to develop a lightful character and delete damaging habits of negative thoughts and emotions.” by ALAJE the Pleiadian 🙂
        Bless ALL 🙂

        • Morten

          You are attached to a religion. How can you not see this? I believed this nonsense before and I am telling you it is a lie. You are being fooled by fallen angels! Jesus did not only preach about love. He died for you at the cross. It was a payment for your sins. Your sins get it? Everything else is a lie. Jesus said: I am the Way and the Truth and Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6. Why do you keep comparing Jesus with other spiritual teachers? You are so wrong! You regurgitate all these truth claims and you cannot prove anything you say to be true! How do you know this is a journey to the source of all sources. It is sorcery! It is manure! “Meditation on a radiating heart of love”. You have absolutely no idea what you are getting yourself into are you?I tell you, it is the false light, it is Luciferianism. How do you know ALAJE is from the Pleiadians? It is so silly!

          believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:
          because many false prophets are gone out into the world” 1.John4:1

          Wake up!

          • Awareness

            Morten wrote: “I believed this nonsense before”

            You know what? I just don’t believe you period 🙂 I have no “sins” of any kind. I am innocent including you and everyone else 🙂

            Jesus or any other spiritual master is neither inferior nor superior to me or you or anyone else 🙂 Do you understand this? Look with integrity to your HEART for confirmation 🙂

            “First of all, you have to realize that Jesus was a composite of different entities and the name was chosen several hundred years later at the Council of Nicea, wherein the entity Constantine ordered the various religious sects to come together and create a single religion for Rome, a Universal religion that incorporated all of the aspects of the various religions, so that all could accept and subscribe to it.”

            “This entity Apollonius of Tyana is the central figure of a certain religious order that was prevalent at that time in Rome and his life was incorporated into the Holy Roman religion or Catholic version of the Christian epic which became the official Roman religion in approximately 300 AD.

            This Awareness indicates that this energy of Apollonius was incorporated, there was also energies of several other spiritual leaders of Roman religious sects whose stories were also brought in and there were those spiritual personalities or deities from other Roman religious orders whose histories or religious myths came from other cultures.

            Krishna for example, of India, was one of the religious cults and groups in Rome, and his story was merged with that of Apollonius of Tyana. The story of Krishna as that entity who came into the earth born of a virgin and who attempted to save people from error and sin, but who was hanged for his efforts.

            This Awareness indicates that this was incorporated in the story of Jesus and the Apollonius story was also part of this story, and there were also entities whose religion was that of sun worshipping, wherein there was the sun and the 12 houses or signs, and these sun worshippers had their story of Jesus in which the sun god had 12 disciples and these 12 disciples of course reflected the 12 signs of those who were the sun worshippers in Rome. This was of course an astrological religion.”

            “This Awareness indicates that the combination of the many different Roman religious orders or organizations, the different religious sects, forming a composite in which the central heroic character was the Son of God, having 12 disciples, being born of a virgin, whose intent and purpose was to help save mankind, and for his efforts, the entity was slain and put upon a cross; the entity also having certain miraculous powers, including that of those who can heal by touch, or raise from the dead or move into states of suspended animation, such as some of the masters of India have demonstrated in various times throughout history.”

            “This Awareness indicates that in this sense, the entity that contributed to the composite known as Jesus went westward, while another entity who contributed to the composite known as Jesus went eastward. This Awareness indicates there were of course, still others. This Awareness indicates that in attempting to discuss the story of Jesus in a traditional way opens a Pandora’s Box of discrepancies, when you approach or seek the truth of the matter, because the Jesus of the Bible, being a composite of many different entities, or several different entities, is not the true story.”

            “This Awareness indicates that there is a book which entities should study if they are further interested in this. It is titled 16 Crucified Saviors or Christianity Before Christ, something to that effect. This Awareness indicates that it tells of the various parallels to the Christian story from earlier writings of other cultures, wherein the hero of those earlier cultures and writings experienced or acted out the same kind of activities as did the later Jesus Christ in the Christian religion, these down to details, such as the washing of the feet, healing the blind, and raising of the dead, and similar teachings to that of Jesus and also the Virgin Birth and being hanged or otherwise killed for this effort.

            This Awareness indicates that the Krishna parallel is the one which contains the most similar experiences, but there are also a number of others, a total of 16 saviors in all, whose lives paralleled Jesus, even in some of the exact situations.” by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’d be interested in seeing one of those fallen angels, Morten. What do they look like? Where can I go see one? Do they have wings? Horns on their head?

            Why is it that only John said these words about being the truth and the light? If these are such important words, and they must be since Christians quote them endlessly, why do none of the other gospel writers record them?

            John seems to be speaking of a different Jesus than the other gospel writers spoke of since he puts words in Jesus’ mouth that none of the others record; but you won’t understand that till you read all of them and compare them by looking at the stories and events side by side. Contradictions galore!

            Matthew: John the Baptist baptized for the repentance of sins, and Jesus insisted that he be baptized by John, so he must have been a man with sins at that point. After he is baptized, it appears that he becomes God’s son.

            Mark: Hard to say where Jesus becomes divine in Mark’s story, but it’s probably at his death after suffering as the reference to the torn cloth in the temple is not found in the other stories, but this apparently symbolizes a break between mortal and divine, as the Centurion notes.

            Luke: Jesus is divine by virtue of the virgin birth. Luke has Jesus becoming divine within the womb of Mary, and in his gospel Jesus does not suffer at his death since he’s already divine and fully in control.

            John: John says Jesus has always been divine. Nobody else says this. How come?

            So which of them is correct and why, if they are all the “word of God” are at least three of them wrong?

          • Morten

            The gospel are not contradictory. They are written for different readers. Matthew for the Jews to see that Jesus is the Messiah. Mark is about brevity. Luke is about the facts and history and John is all about getting the Gospel across. You should read John. Anyways, all of them are true.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well first question is – have you read all of the NT? I have done so several times. You seem to indicate that the Gospel of John is the most important. Why is that? Are the others wrong? Are the other gospels somehow less worthy? Given that John is the last gospel written and furthest from the events in question, why would his version get more credibility than the others?

            It’s interesting that you point out that Matthew was written for the Jews, and I would agree with this. That’s why he has Jesus saying that he didn’t come to abolish the law. He’s the only one to say this. So do Christians accept what Jesus said – that he did not come to abolish the law? NO, they say the exact opposite and try to mangle the word “fulfill” so that they can make Jesus a liar or at least a very confused individual who can’t make his very critical point clear to all. Why would Matthew include this passage – the only one to do so? Why would he tell Jews that Jesus abolished their law if he expects them to convert to Paul’s new religion? That would be guaranteed to drive the Jews off, and indeed once Jesus’ original words were turned on their head and Christians insisted that Paul was right and Matthew was wrong and that Jesus didn’t really mean it when he said he didn’t come to abolish the law – the Jews told Christianity to take a hike. If the law had remained in place, as Jesus’ original disciples and brothers believed and practiced, we’d have a very different version of Christianity today.

            Regardless of whether they were written for different readers, they say different things. Look up for yourself some of the things I’ve listed. What were Jesus’ last words? Go to the end of each gospel and read it for yourself. A person can only have one set of last words, yet there are three sets of last words. Who got it right, and who got it wrong? Don’t tell me it’s all true. It can’t be. A person gets one set of ‘last words’ and the gospel writers do not say the same thing. One or more of them are WRONG.

            Most of the gospels say that Jesus overturned the tables at the temple towards the very end of his ministry and he was arrested as a result. John says he did this at the very beginning of his ministry. If so, why wasn’t he arrested then? Who has the story right and who has the story wrong? They can’t both be true.

            Why do we have last supper stories in which Jesus has a passover meal with wine and bread, but John has a very different ceremony with Jesus washing feet. Who has it right? Why don’t the gospels agree on when he was crucified? They can’t all be right; someone – probably John, is wrong, since his story is different from the others.

            Paul says that after his vision of Jesus he went to Arabia and then to Damascus and that when he went to Jerusalem years later, he met only with Peter and James. Luke, the writer of Acts says Paul went directly to Jerusalem after his vision and he met with all the church leaders. Who has it right and who has it wrong? One would assume that Paul knew where he went. Why in Paul’s writings is he so antagonistic to the early church leaders, and in Acts they are all bosum buddies? Who is wrong? One would think Paul (our oldest writer) would know what actually happened and what his reasons were for antagonism to the elders “what do I care for those super-Apostles” he says derisively. Yet Acts wants us to think everything was hunky dory. Someone is lying or wrong.

            Matthew and Luke are the only two to have a Bethlehem birth, but both get Jesus there in very different ways, and under different rulers and circumstances. Matthew has him born under Herod, but he goes there under direction of the angel of the Lord, while Luke has him born under Quirinius and he invents this census that nothing in the historical record supports. Matthew just wants to make sure Jesus birth fulfills prophecy so he places it in Bethlehem, but Luke wants to create the divinity of Jesus as part of the virgin birth story – they have different objectives so they get him to Bethlehem using entirely different means. Mark and John have no virgin birth in Bethlehem at all. The differences are most difficult to reconcile.
            I could go on; the NT is full of such examples. It is not the true word of God, unless God makes a great many mistakes. I’m sorry to disabuse you of the notion that it is the inerrant word of God, but if you read the scriptures yourself, it’s pretty easy to see that this is not the case and that whoever told you it was lied to you or was ignorant of the scriptures himself.

            Many Christians are able to take note of the fact that the bible is not inerrant and still manage to be believers. Since they don’t believe the bible is faultless, does that mean they go to Hell to join other non believers, since they don’t believe the right thing – that which you believe? Do only Christians who believe the bible is inerrant go to heaven and all the others to Hell? Are you telling every self-professed Christian who doesn’t believe what you believe that they are going to Hell?

          • Morten

            Jesus came down to make a new covenant with people including the Jews. Not all Jews rejected Him. He said the traditions of the Pharisees did not matter. But He never said the Commandments should not count anymore. Both of the Covenants work perfectly in harmony with each other. The Jews including the Sadducees could never handle the new covenant because it includes also the Gentiles. That is a good thing for all of us including you.

            His last words can include all of them. Who are you to determine how many words His last word were? Are you calling Jesus a liar? He cannot lie? If you do not understand the Bible that is your problem.

            You do not answer any of my questions ,you only attack the Bible. I am getting a little bored actually. I believe the Bible because it is reliable and has yet to be proven wrong on any subject. If you believe something else that is just your opinion or other human opinions which are based on circular reasoning and therefore it is fallible. In fact everything you have written is fallible and a waste of energy. You have nothing! The Bible can defend itself!

            I advice you not to call God a liar. I do not believe He will take that very lightly.

          • Patrick Gannon

            “Both of the Covenants work perfectly in harmony with each other.” One covenant has to do with law, the other with belief. How are they in harmony with each other? If they were in harmony, why would the Jews have so much trouble accepting Paul’s new religion?

            No, it is not “good news” that the new covenant includes the gentiles – at least not to me. As I explained before, I’d rather sleep in Sheol than take my chances on not believing the right thing and ending up in Hell. I’m not a gambler. Jesus did not bring us a better deal if we are to believe Christians like you who insist that those who believe the wrong thing go to Hell. If that is actually true, then our situation is far worse than before Jesus came.

            “His last words can include all of them.” That’s your answer? The problem is that his last words DON’T include all of those statements. His last words are completely different in two of the gospels. None of the gospels say that his last words were: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me. Into your hands I commit my Spirit. It is finished.” Nobody claims he said that, and if you claim it, you are creating your own 5th gospel which contradicts all four of the others. No, my frightened friend, this argument does not fly. My bible does not include the Gospel of Morten.

            “You do not answer any of my questions.” On the contrary, I have gone out of my way to answer all of your questions and any I may have missed were an oversight. You, on the other hand, have failed to respond to very many of mine. Go back through the threads here and see how many of your questions I didn’t answer. You may not like the answers, but I have answered. If I missed something, feel free to ask again.

            I’m not attacking the bible – just pointing out the discrepancies in it that you can research for yourself. I really do hope you are getting bored, and will depart from this forum and go spend some time learning something about your own religion and scriptures; but I’m happy to keep the discussion going. If others are reading this, they are learning things about the bible that they can look up for themselves, even if you refuse to do so.

            Once again – I call you out as a coward for refusing to test your faith. Based on what you’ve told us here, you would have never had the courage to step into the lion’s den and die for your faith. You won’t even read a book because your faith is so weak. How could you possibly test your faith with your life?

            I don’t think I’ve called God a liar. I’ve questioned whether you have. Give it up Morten. Go read the bible cover to cover, then come back when you no longer act as an uneducated child speaking about things you do not know or understand.

          • Morten

            You say I have to read the book cover to cover in order to believe. I refuse to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified! Nothing else is important. God has given me eyes to see the truth. I do not need anything else than the Bible. It is the word of God. No man has more wisdom than He. God does not make mistakes, but people do all the time. I will go down living in Jesus Christ. I am not afraid of death. What will you die for, Patrick? Your own reasoning which is fallible?

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, I did not say that you need to read the book cover to cover ‘in order to believe.’ I said you should read it cover to cover so you know what your religion is all about. You come in here telling people they are agents of the devil, going to Hell and you haven’t even read your own scripture. Apparently you read CWG, but you won’t read your own bible! After reading CWG you decided it was a lie. Maybe you will decide the same thing after you read the whole bible….

            You say you do not need anything else other than the Bible. So what do you do with the bible, if you don’t read it? Sit on it so you can reach the steering wheel when you drive? What good is it if you don’t read it?

            So you claim to have had a spiritual experience and God told you to be a good evangelical and tell everyone who doesn’t believe the right thing that they are going to Hell. Fine; but shouldn’t you at least read God’s written word to see if it matches up with your spiritual vision? Keep in mind that people like David Koresh, Jim Jones and Charles Manson also had visions of God and Jesus. Perhaps you are just insane, like them and should get psychiatric help.

            I’m not afraid of death either; in fact with the passing years I look forward to it more and more.

          • Morten

            I believe and then I know the truth.

            You could be wrong about anything you claim to know, right? You are fallible.

            It is not foolish to face death when you can have certainty as to what will happen when you die, but you choose not to know?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Well in the old days the church believed the sun went around the earth and that the earth was the center of the universe. They believed, but they did not know the truth. The truth was very different. The earth turned out to be a relatively insignificant outpost in the outer bands of one particular galaxy among billions. Believing does not yield truth; only knowledge yields truth. Believing keeps you from truth since you stop seeking truth if you believe you already have it – as did the church when they thought the earth was the center of the universe.

            If you believe you can fly and you jump off a tall building, do you believe the truth is that you can fly? Give it a try and let me know how it goes. Give me any person on earth who believes he or she can fly and let me know the truth of what happens when that belief is put to the test.

            If you put a bullet in your head this evening, do you know the truth of what will happen – besides the end of your existence in this physical matter reality?

          • Morten

            Truth never changes. Peoples opinion does. You cannot get absolute truths from people alone. People are fallible. They usually presuppose a non existent God. Which is a vicious circular reasoning. Again.

            We are not insignificant to this universe. We are in the very center of his existence. Following is only my opinion based on history in cosmology, different experiments to prove earth rotation (which they have not) and other theists: It would not surprise me that we are in the very center of His creation. It makes perfect sense that everything is revolving around the earth. Earth is standing still while all the stars and galaxies revolves around us. Now that is absolutely beautiful! Do you not agree? What glory!

            God is all knowing and cannot lie. I believe the Bible to be true and therefor I know the truth about what God tells me, which is everything we humans can possible know to be true for certain. Bible tells us about how he created the universe. We know we cannot fly without some form of equipment, and we know that to be true. You can use scientific methods to find out if you are not sure. Although your worldview does not allow for the necessary tools to exist in order to perform such an experiment.

            About the bullet experiment. You think your soul will die with the flesh?
            Bible tells me what will happen after death. I have told you this several times. You will be judged for you actions on this earth. Breaking His rules results in everlasting punishment. Accept Jesus Christ as Lord King and Savior and ask Him to forgive your sins and you will have eternal life. You have to mean it though. He knows your heart.

          • Patrick Gannon

            This was fun, but when you postulate that the earth stands still and the entire universe revolves around it (where does it say that in the bible?), I have to step out and bang my head against the wall. I assumed I was debating a rational person – apparently not. Morten, you were born into the wrong century.

            As for the bullet thing – that was a trick question. I wanted to see what your thoughts were on suicide and whether you would go to Hell if you shot yourself.

            The one thing I have come to be sure of as a result of this discussion, is that if heaven is going to be full of people such as yourself, Morten, then I would prefer to hang out with the sinners in Hell. Your goal here wasn’t to bring the gospel, the good news, and to convert to the true faith, was it? Your goal here was to drive people away from it by representing it as something cruel, ignorant and backwards. Well, mission accomplished!

            “They say there’s a heaven for those who will wait. Some say it’s better but I say it ain’t. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Sinners are much more fun… You know that only the good die young.” Billy Joel.

            Goodbye Morten. I really do hope you read that bible one day.

          • Morten

            Do you read? I stated I was only pondering on the possibility that the earth could be centered. I never claimed it was from the Bible.

            Why would I commit suicide. I have been called by God to do His work. I might not do it perfectly, but at least I try to get the message across. God is real and He is a living God and He will grant you eternal life. If you chose not to accept this gift the consequences are severe. He is completely righteous and cannot contradict Himself. That is why you have to pay for your sins. But He gave you a way out. He became man on earth so He could die for you as payment for your sins, people before you and people after. He is a loving God!

            I have clearly stated what the Gospel is.

            “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” John 3:16

            You will not laugh in Hell, Patrick. Do not say things you do not mean.

            I will of course read the Bible. It is everything to me now. It is the word of God which I cherish with all my heart and mind. How else will we come out of this mess? Without it we are lost. It is the only thing I read now and as slow as you believe I am, hopefully I will get through it before I die, holding the Bible in my hands. The word gave me life. I am forever grateful in Lord Jesus Christ.

            God bless you, Patrick
            May the glory of God shine upon you.


      • Patrick Gannon

        Which part or parts of Mr. Awareness’ post is a lie, Morten? Read Ecclesiastes and you may find some real similarities in what he posted.

        You don’t like that he (I’m assuming “Awareness” is a male), attributed the post to God (which is what they do in the place he got it from), and frankly neither do I. The word “God” has way too much baggage, and as in this instance here, instead of the message being received and creating goodness, the use of the word “God” shuts down the lines of communication, puts up barriers, and drives the separation that is so inherent in religion. It’s stupid, in my opinion, for the Heavenletter people to say their messages come from “God” unless they make it clear that they don’t think of God in the same way Christians do. Mr. Awareness did not explain his God, so of course when you hear “God” you think of Bible God, whereas he probably has an entirely different concept of God. Why do Heavenletter, Mr. Awareness, Neale Walsch and so many others intentionally create counterproductive confusion by using the word God when all it does is divide us? Beats me. When they do though, it means the messages will only be of use to those who have already drunk their Kool Aid. The word “God” does not bring us together. It divides and I think it will continue to do so, even if the New Age God is really nice, unlike your Bible God. The word “God” has outlived its usefulness. We need a new word to refer to the unknown.

        • Morten

          Your opinion does not matter to God. There is only one God, the God of the Bible.

          I tell you why they want to confuse people. They are under the influence of the Devil. He is the father of all lies and he gets a kick out of our confusion. He is a wolf in sheep clothing. He mixes truths with lies. You have two choices Jesus Christ or the Devil. That is the truth.

          God wants to bring in his sheep. Your only Savior is Jesus Christ!

          Stay vigilant!

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m not expressing my opinion to God, I’m expressing it to you, Morten. Besides, if my opinion does not matter to God, then what’s all this fuss about believing the right thing? It’s your opinion that certain things must be believed. It’s my opinion that certain things need not be believed. You just said that God doesn’t care about my opinion one way or the other, so what’s the fuss all about?

            You said that the statement Mr. Awareness posted was all lies. Prove it. I maintain that if you read Ecclesiastes you’ll discover that much of what’s in that post is expressed in that book of the OT. You’ll never know till you read it though, so why don’t you take a break from all this for a year, and go read it so you’re qualified to talk about it?

            It’s easier and more fun to call people liars than to actually study isn’t it? (By the way, are you out of high school yet?)

            You said there is only one God, the God of the bible. Don’t tell me it’s because the bible says so unless you can prove that the bible is the word of God. How are you going to prove that? As it turns out, two of the NT authors who claim the scriptures are god-breathed (inspired) (Epistles to Tim and Pete) are not who they claim to be, according to most scholars; so as frauds, their credibility is open to question. Finally, when they said these things in their letters, there was no NT, as it had not been pulled together yet; thus they could only be speaking of the OT scripture as being inspired; and according to Christians, the OT law is moot since Paul said it no longer applies. So why does it matter? There are no claims in the NT that the NT is inspired, because at the time the writers said these things the NT had not been assembled yet. That didn’t happen till a couple hundred years later.

            You say we’re under the influence of the devil. Prove it. Prove first of all that there is a devil. Where does he live? Is he a flesh and blood being or a spirit being?

            And finally, what is it that I’m being saved from by Jesus? I don’t sense any impending danger or need to be saved. Besides, I said the right words when I was a kid and I believed them at that time, and many Christians have told me that once saved, always saved, so I can’t even reject the salvation I don’t need. What a crazy religion!

          • Morten

            What I meant is that He exists whether you believe Him or not. He certainly cares about you and wants you to wake up! Well, I hope that for you anyways.

            The burden of proof is on you. He created the universe, that is proof in itself. The Biblical historical events also correlates with the diggings we find. All of them including the dinosaurs. But I guess your belief wont let you see that.

            The Bible is true because God wrote the book. The Bible is a collection of historical documents. Nothing has been proven wrong in the Bible. I do not have to defend it. It defends itself. The people who you claim to have other opinions, these so called scholars, are either lying or they do not know what they are looking at. They probably believe in evolution too. How plain stupid is that! You cannot prove Gods existence if your presup is that He does not. You have to be open to the idea that He could. You claim you are, but that you have not found proof, proves that you do not want Him. You are probably very angry with Him, I do not know. Still, there is something in you that refuses Him.

            I think you should listen more to the good news rather looking for excuses not to believe. It actually makes me sad to see how much you get in the way of yourself. Your presup is that He does not exist. You are lying to yourself.

            You are not saved. You have to believe Him and repent of your sins. Your actions let you know if you believe Him. You reject Him and I feel a bit grief here actually. It is very sad to meet people who rejects God. It is so so silly.

            One more thing. You see, I do not have to read books that claim the Bible is wrong. I already know they are lies. Everything that persecutes the living God or the Bible are lies. It is just impossible to have a worldview without God of the Bible. When you type down letters, creating words and sort them in an order that makes sense, you have already proven the existence of God.

            God have mercy on you
            God bless, Patrick.

          • Patrick Gannon

            You hope he cares for me and wants me to wake up, but as you’ve said before, it’s not up to you or me, it’s up to Bible God to decide or let play out what he’s already decided; so this is all a waste of your time. You’re trying to get me to believe what you believe, when you’ve already said that only God can make me believe the right thing. So why are you wasting your time?

            The biblical historical events correlate with the diggings we find? Why then hasn’t a single, solitary human fossil been found at the same level as the dinosaur fossils? This assertion is total nonsense. Most Christians would say that Bible God planted those fossils in order to test us, as they cannot deny that the archaeological record does not support the bible in any way, shape or form. I was thinking you were high school age, but now I’m wondering if you’re still in Junior High…

            The bible is true because God wrote the book? Really? He came down to earth took pen and paper and wrote the whole thing himself? Perhaps you are still in elementary school….

            Nothing has been proven wrong in the bible. That’s nonsense too, but what about the passages I’ve provided that are right out of the bible that contradict each other?

            I’m not making any claims about whether or not God exists. As I said, I’m agnostic; but you are making outrageous claims and not backing any of them up. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claims – that’s you.

            Yes it’s plain stupid to believe in anything science says. Gravitation? Nah, just a theory. Relativity? Nah, just a theory. Germs? Nah, just a theory. Quantum mechanics? Nah, just a theory. Heliocentrism? Nah, just a theory – speaking of which, do you remember that the sun used to go around the earth according to the bible, till science proved that wrong? Now even Christians agree that the earth goes around the sun.

            I’m not sure how I can be “angry” with God when I’m still undecided whether God exists. How can one be angry with something that may or may not exist? I am angry that you are wasting a perfectly good brain.

            What is the “good news” that I should listen to? Before Jesus, if you read the OT, you’ll find that everyone good and bad alike went to Sheol and if God wanted to punish you he did it in this life, or he punished your offspring (fair and just?) “to the third and fourth generation” (google that). After Jesus, the good news is that if we don’t believe the right thing we go to eternal torment. How is that good news? I’d much rather sleep in Sheol.

            I’m not saved!? Oh man, are you kidding me? Those Christians lied to me? I didn’t think Christians were supposed to lie. That’s a bummer. What sins do you think I need to repent for? You don’t know me well enough to know what if any sins I may have committed. I never said I rejected God; I just said I don’t know if there is a God, or at least your God. That’s not rejection, that’s seeking knowledge and truth.

            Morten, it’s probably time to end this foolishness. You are clearly a passionate person, but you don’t know crap about your own religion or your own scriptures. Come back after you’ve put some time and effort into being able to speak for yourself instead of parroting what someone else has indoctrinated into you. Your gutless, cowardly approach to knowledge – refusing to read things that don’t conform to your world view tell me that your faith is exceptionally weak and you don’t dare put it to the test. It tells me you are a gutless wonder, a frightened little boy whistling in the dark. Come on dude. Grow up.

          • Morten

            You are not seeking knowledge when you rely on your own conclusions which are fallible.
            Everything I say conforms with my worldview; God exists. God is all knowing. Everything that contradicts that is not true. You cannot even find a reason why you or the universe should exist! Why should your brain be conscious? Why is should your brain even want to have answers to anything? What in your worldview supports these kind of questions? Non! Without God you have to rely on a worldview which is only material. If you do not, than you are borrowing from my worldview! That is inconsistent! You call me gutless!? You bounce around from one worldview to another. Agnosticism is stupid! You have no knowledge. Everything you say is circular reasoning and fallible!

            Again, I am consistent with my worldview and I clearly know what my position is. I Believe in the Bible and the living God. My worldview is consistent with everything around. You do not even have a reason to exist according to your worldview. You are telling me to grow up? You are like a kid who cannot make up his mind but has each hand down in both cookie jars at the same time. Do not come to me and talk about guts and grown up and all that stupidity. I know the truth and you tumble in the darkness.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Of course my conclusions are fallible; but mostly I’m presenting evidence from your own scriptures and asking you to draw conclusions. I’ve laid out just a very few of the contradictions in your own scriptures and you’ve so far addressed only one of them – Jesus’ last words; and your argument was unpersuasive.

            I’m not sure what you mean by I “can’t even find a reason why you (I) or the universe should exist” given that we haven’t had any discussions about cosmology or physics. I’m going to guess you have little or no education in those disciplines. Some of them are good questions though. Why should we exist? Why should our brains be conscious? These are excellent questions and ones that science is working on. Most believe that consciousness emerges from the brain and when the brain dies, the consciousness (what others might think of as the soul) ceases to exist. I’m not so sure of that, but I have little choice but to wait till science figures it out one way or the other and to try and study my own consciousness to see what if any conclusions can be drawn from that. I’m not taking the word of many in mainstream science who claim that consciousness emerges from the brain and dies when the brain dies, but neither am I taking the word of religionists who claim the bible is the inerrant word of God. It’s full of errors, and I’ve pointed out only a very small number of them.

            Yes, Morten, I am trying to goad you into doing some personal research by calling you gutless, since nothing else seems to work. I thought at first you were lazy, but now I think you simply lack the courage of your convictions. At least you don’t deny your fear and lack of courage. That’s a first step. You recognize, apparently that your faith is very weak since you have no intention of putting it to the test by reading what might be contrary viewpoints. You haven’t even read your own scriptures, and may be afraid to do so because of what you might find out. Until you do so, I will continue to maintain that you are a coward. I don’t usually insult people like that, but I’ve taken enough of your crap, that I don’t feel too bad about unloading on you if it will serve to prod you into having a bit of courage to test your faith. You were the one who came into this relatively peaceful forum full of people seeking God through love and injected your insistence that God can only be found through fear, calling people agents of the devil on their way to Hell. You reap what you sow. If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the fire. You didn’t expect to find someone here who knows more about your own religion than you do. Sorry for the disappointment. Go read the bible and then come back and we’ll have a rational discussion.

          • Morten

            Your conclusions are fallible and you can be wrong about everything you say! You do not have any basis for any of the stuff you claim to be true. Why should I listen to you?
            The book is not full of errors. God does not make mistakes. Just because you said they are does not mean you are right? You are after all fallible. Your reasoning is circular! You do not grasp this do you? The very existence of yourself proves God! God of the Bible accounts for everything in your life. I am only pointing out the truth, and you insist to come back to Scripture pointing out contradictions which you can be wrong about, using God given tools like logic to make a point which can be fallible! Circular!

            You are calling me out to be rational. I am nothing but rational. I even have a rational consistent worldview. You deny the one living God who gave you the ability to reason and then you use your reason to deny Him. Not reasonable.

            I am not a coward. You are. You have no foundation to stand on. How does your worldview explain logic which you barely use in this discussion? Can you not see? Your worldview does not account for anything, yet you are borrowing from Christian worldview in order to attack it! You are a believer! You believe in logic? You believe in the laws of physics? You believe in math? You believe in the existence of the universe, the existence of yourself? The Word explains all this the Agnosticism does not! Using anything from Christian worldview makes your own worldview inconsistent and therefore not true. If there is anything you should be questioning it is your worldview. It is fallible and inconsistent with reality.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I’m a human, so yes, my conclusions may be incorrect. Unless someone died and made you God, your conclusions may also be incorrect. You too are a human.

            You apparently looked up the final words of Jesus, since you commented on them in a prior post. You saw for yourself that what I said was true. The gospels have differing accounts of Jesus’ last words and they can’t all be true. At least two of them are wrong. You’ll find this to be the case with the other items I listed. They are in your bible; you can look them up yourself. How can you say I’m wrong, when I tell you what the text says and you look it up and it says exactly what I said it says?

            God didn’t make mistakes, the writers of the gospels made mistakes. They were, like you and I, fallible humans who make mistakes. You can look up the passages I discussed for yourself and let me know if I was wrong about any of them.

            I’m sorry, but I’m having trouble understanding the rest of your rant.

          • Morten

            It is clearly stated in the Bible that the writers were influenced by the Holy spirit, who is God. Again, God does not make mistakes.

            My basis here on this discussion is God of the Bible, not myself. You on the other hand have yourself. God cannot make mistakes nor lie. You on the other hand can make mistakes, and your assumptions are fallible. Your reasoning is circular.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Would you be so kind as to give me an example of my circular reasoning?

            A very common example of circular reasoning is this:

            Claim: the bible is the word of God
            Evidence: the bible says it is the word of God.

            That is circular reasoning. Please google “circular reasoning” so you know what it is. You keep throwing that out without understanding that it is you who is using this illogical reasoning.

            Another example to make it a bit more extreme…

            Claim: Pat Gannon is God
            Evidence: Pat Gannon says he is God

            That would be circular reasoning. You misused the whole “begging the question” fallacy earlier but I didn’t bother to call you on it.

          • Morten

            Do you claim to be God? Is that you position? I thought you were Agnostic…
            My circular reasoning is divine. God has all knowledge.
            Yours is vicious circular reasoning because you validate your reasoning with our own reason. That is a fallacy.

          • Patrick Gannon

            What part of the word “example” don’t you understand, Morten? Whether I claim to be God or not is an entirely different conversation having nothing to do with the topic of logic, which is what we were discussing. I simply provided an example of circular reasoning, because I thought you’d get it – I was apparently wrong; you don’t get it.

            Obviously saying I’m God doesn’t prove I’m God – that’s circular reasoning. Saying the bible is the word of God because you may suggest that the bible says that it is the word of God, (even though it doesn’t) doesn’t prove that it’s the word of God, that’s circular reasoning. The claim is not the proof. Google ‘circular reasoning’ so you understand what it is, so as not to look quite so uneducated.

            Your “circular reasoning is divine.” I am laughing my ass off here. That has to be one of the silliest things you’ve said yet. I have never heard of divine vs. vicious circular reasoning – because those words “divine” and “vicious” have nothing whatsoever to do with logic; which is what circular reasoning is about – or the lack thereof.

            Come on, tell me how old you are. You haven’t been to college yet, have you? Hopefully you’re at least in high school. Your writing skills aren’t bad, but your ability to make your position attractive, reasonable, logical, persuasive, etc. needs some work. You’re great at alienating people but that doesn’t win souls; it chases them away. People are posting here that I’m even more stupid than you are for attempting to reason with you; but I think it’s worth the effort, and it’s been a heck of a lot of fun for an old fart like me. You may actually read the entire bible someday so you have some idea of what you’re talking about and then we may be able to have more intelligent discussions.

            You don’t know what circular reasoning is or you wouldn’t say some of the things you’ve said here. It’s OK. You’ll learn as you mature. In the meantime enjoy your youth, but try to grow out of ignorance rather than blessing it. Ignorance is not bliss – it’s just ignorance.

          • Morten

            That you have to pretend to be God only shows the inconsistency in your worldview. I mean, what is it really? And will you stick to one, please.

            I know perfectly well what circular reasoning is. Without God we cannot know anything to be true. The reasoning will come back to you. My reasoning goes back to the Bible. That is my foundation. That is why it is called a divine circular reasoning. It does not come back to me. Your worldview does not allow you to be anything but circular in your reasoning. Everything you say is fallible. GET IT? Since you are an old fart I will let you off easily for being a bit slow.

            From where do you get the laws of logic? Uniformity in nature, mathematics?

            I am not a prosperity teacher who says everything will be OK as long as you love everyone.
            That is not the truth. The truth is that you will end up in hell unless you repent. It might not be attractive but it is the truth. To think that breaking Gods law will not have consequences is foolish. I am sorry but it is. You only come to the Father through Jesus. But you know this right. When God says that you have known this to be true all along, it would be hard to say otherwise. Right?

            God bless old man!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Goodbye child.

          • Morten

            “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” Romans 1:22

  • Thanks Neale for all you do. “The Answer to every question is LOVE. If LOVE is not in it, it is not the answer.” It is said that we live in complicated times. With Neale’s messages and others teachers that have come that lead me to my heart. It all comes down to this simple primer. The world and it’s “problems” at least for me are no longer that complicated. When asking the hard questions, when trying to find a solution, or a “Soulution” for a problem we face “The answer to every question is LOVE. If LOVE is not in it, it is not the answer.” Believe it or not. This simple message came to me while watching the movie “Interstellar” Thank you so much Neale for all you do. You are loved.

    • Morten

      You need Jesus Christ not just love. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

      Repent and confess your sins to Lord Christ Jesus and serve Him.

      Do not be fooled by this New Age mambo jambo!!!!

      • Patrick Gannon

        New Age mumbo jumbo doesn’t hold a candle to biblical mumbo jumbo.

        See Numbers 5:11-31. Bible God’s own recipe for abortion. Talk about mumbo jumbo.

        Check out Leviticus – just open to the first page and start reading. Talk about mumbo jumbo.

        Leviticus is wonderful for mumbo jumbo – here’s how chapter 14 starts:

        14 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “These are the regulations for any diseased person at the time of their ceremonial cleansing, when they are brought to the priest: 3 The priest is to go outside the camp and examine them. If they have been healed of their defiling skin disease,[a] 4 the priest shall order that two live clean birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop be brought for the person to be cleansed. 5 Then the priest shall order that one of the birds be killed over fresh water in a clay pot. 6 He is then to take the live bird and dip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water. 7 Seven times he shall sprinkle the one to be cleansed of the defiling disease, and then pronounce them clean. After that, he is to release the live bird in the open fields.

        8 “The person to be cleansed must wash their clothes, shave off all their hair and bathe with water; then they will be ceremonially clean. After this they may come into the camp,but they must stay outside their tent for seven days. 9 On the seventh day they must shave off all their hair; they must shave their head, their beard, their eyebrows and the rest of their hair. They must wash their clothes and bathe themselves with water, and they will be clean.

        10 “On the eighth day they must bring two male lambs and one ewe lamb a year old, each without defect, along with three-tenths of an ephah[b] of the finest flour mixed with olive oil for a grain offering, and one log[c] of oil. 11 The priest who pronounces them clean shall present both the one to be cleansed and their offerings before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting.

        12 “Then the priest is to take one of the male lambs and offer it as a guilt offering, along with the log of oil; he shall wave them before the Lord as a wave offering. 13 He is to slaughter the lamb in the sanctuary area where the sin offering[d] and the burnt offering are slaughtered. Like the sin offering, the guilt offering belongs to the priest; it is most holy. 14 The priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot. 15 The priest shall then take some of the log of oil, pour it in the palm of his own left hand, 16 dip his right forefinger into the oil in his palm, and with his finger sprinkle some of it before the Lord seven times. 17 The priest is to put some of the oil remaining in his palm on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, on top of the blood of the guilt offering. 18 The rest of the oil in his palm the priest shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed and make atonement for them before the Lord.

        If you notice this is about “guilt offerings” which means God gave you a skin disease because you were guilty of some sin. (Today even Christians just go to the doctor as we know skin conditions have nothing to do with sin).

        In the OT, before Jesus, God punished people in this life, with things like skin conditions, but when they died and went to Sheol, they were simply dead with no suffering and no punishment. If God felt he hadn’t punished you enough in this life, he would punish your offspring “to the third and fourth generation.” (Num 14:18). After Jesus shows up, we have to believe the right thing or suffer eternal torment, which was not something anyone had to face before he came. I have a hard time seeing how our situation has improved.

        • Morten

          You are making so many truth claims which all could be wrong. How do you know it is not because of sin that you can get skin disease? Please, I do not want to know. If you feel you have won this debate that is totally OK with me.

          God is more intelligent than you. If you do not understand scripture that is fine by me. You could be one of those guys in the end that refuse to repent even when Jesus himself comes down on a cloud. You would still try to find a natural explanation. You will never find evidence of the supernatural by meager natural methods. As I said before. It comes down to believing. But you refuse even logic to stick to your guns. (I am referring to the other thread now). You also refuse to admit that all this comes down to belief. Yes yes, evidence!, evidence!

          God bless, Patrick

          • Patrick Gannon

            What truth claims did I make that are wrong? Please list them and I’ll do my best to address them. You said this in reference to my post above and all I did was quote the bible – you can look up those sections yourself. If sprinkling blood isn’t mumbo jumbo like some Haitian Voodoo ceremony, then I don’t know what is!

            You mention that I’m wrong with regard to skin and other ailments being part of the natural world and insist that Bible God inflicts them on us as a result of sin… So when a baby or very young child gets sick or has some kind of skin disease or deformity, she is being punished by God? If skin disease is caused by sin, what possible sin could a toddler commit that would require that she suffer punishment from God? When the bible says, “God is love” what does it mean when he inflicts a sinless toddler with a skin disease or other ailment? Many of us question how an all-good God could allow such misery, but you insist God doesn’t just allow it, He inflicts it. Then you speak of Bible God’s love and justice and mercy. Those words say something entirely different in my dictionary.

            I don’t think most Christians hold to the viewpoint that disease, sickness, mental illness, etc. are caused by sin, but I guess there must be a few of you. Check with your clergy to see if your particular denomination still buys into that concept, since you apparently need someone else to tell you what to believe.

            It is very sad that you say things like, “Please, I do not want to know.” Indeed in your religion, ignorance must be blessed. Why did God bother to give you a brain if you “don’t want to know?” That’s very sad. You said you were going to read the entire bible. That means you do want to know, at least at some level. Follow through on that and see if any of your feelings change. You’ll go through plenty of mumbo jumbo on the way, of that I can assure you!

            Whether I understand scripture or not is something you are not qualified to judge since you haven’t read it yourself, Morten. If Jesus comes down on a cloud, trust me that will get my attention. You finish by saying it all comes down to belief, then you write, “Yes, yes, evidence!, evidence!” That’s all I’m looking for – evidence. If Jesus came down on a cloud, I would consider that much stronger evidence than anything you’ve told me. Belief shuns evidence, so I don’t understand what you mean in that last sentence.

          • Morten

            I do not grasp the idea that in order to be given the divine knowledge you have to believe first. I said I did not want to know your answer. I am all for truth. I love truth. God is truth. You do not believe in God that is why you cannot know anything to be true. You use scientific methods which are based on logic and physics. Yet you deny logic and things you cannot see or touch. How dare you? Your worldview is inconsistent. How can you account for logic in your worldview?

            You do not hold the truth. You do not obtain all knowledge that is why you cannot know anything for certain. Truth is certain knowledge. You have to have all knowledge in order to know anything for certain. God is the only one who have all the knowledge. You are not in a position to question anything He does. If you do not like His terms does not mean He does not exist.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Morten you’ve repeatedly said that I don’t believe in God, but I don’t recall actually saying that. How do you know what I believe? All I’ve done is challenge you when you make claims.

            I’m afraid I don’t really understand your first paragraph. You say I use the scientific method which is based on logic, then you say I deny logic. Which is it? Your statement is illogical.

            Who says I deny things I can’t see and touch. I think electricity is real and I can’t see that. I think atoms are real, but I can’t see them. I think photons are real, but I can’t see them. I think gravity is real and I can’t see or touch that. What are you trying to say?

            Did I claim to hold the truth? Where did I do that? Can you quote me please? I am a seeker, trying to find the truth. I don’t claim to have it and never have. I’ve said repeatedly that I’m an agnostic. An agnostic admits that HE DOES NOT KNOW. That means I don’t know the truth, I only seek it.

            You just don’t like it that I’ve pointed out a lot of weaknesses in what you think is the truth. You said the bible is the true word of God and I gave you just a very few examples of contradictions. Why do three gospels have the destruction of the temple at the end of Jesus’ ministry and John has it right at the beginning? Why are the genealogies different? Why does Paul say that after his vision of Jesus, he spends years in Arabia and Damascus before going to Jerusalem to meet with Peter, when Acts says he goes straight to Jerusalem and meets with all the church fathers? One would think Paul knew where he went. The list of contradictions go on and on and on, but you tell me every last bit of it is the true word of God. If that’s so, then Bible God’s memory is even worse than mine!

          • Morten

            You know the truth. You are created by your Father in heaven, God almighty. You have to believe in Him. Stop the foolishness and ask Him to reveal Himself to you.

            You do not want the truth, that is why it has not been granted to you yet. As an agnostic you think you do not reject God, but you do. You do not believe in the real God, a just God who has to judge you. To not like his rules does not rule out His existence. You are His slave. You cannot be anything other than someones slave. That is the truth. Slave to Christ or slave to the flesh. That are your options. You have sin that you desperately try to hold on to. You are searching for flaws instead of truth. You do not seek the truth and you know this.

            You base your conclusions on your own reasoning. How can you know that your senses are valid if you base truth upon your own reasoning through your own senses? It is a vicious circle. Who invented math, logic, physical, laws and morality you think? These are questions you should ask yourself.

            I say that you use logic but you cannot account for where logic come from. It is illogical to deny the Creator of logic and use logic in arguments against the Creator of logic. It is like denying the air you breathe.

            Agnosticism is just another way of avoiding the real God. Does not matter what you call yourself. You still reject your Creator. You have just selected a belief that suits your own worldview.

          • Patrick Gannon

            No, I don’t know the truth, and I never said I did. I said, as an agnostic I admit that I do not know the truth. Neither do you. Mankind is so designed that he does not know the truth till he dies – if then.

            Some people, myself included, have had or occasionally have spiritual experiences that may be providing a basis of knowledge about the afterworld, or they may just be chemical reactions that create a reality in the brain but that have no real meaning. We don’t know yet. Until science determines this one way or the other – and eventually they will – all we can do is choose to “think” or choose to “believe.”

            I choose to “think” assuming that if there is a God, then he gave me this brain to use, rather than lock it up in a closet, starved for information and knowledge. If there is a God, I honor it by using that which it has given me, while many believers are proud to poke God in the eye and tell Him, that His gift is worthless and that they will use it as little as possible. Given the marvel that is the human brain; to tell God that his creation is essentially worthless seems a bit foolish to me. God might not appreciate the low esteem with which his wonderful gift is treated by many believers.

            I don’t reject anything. Please stop trying to tell me who and what I am. I am open to any eventuality; whatever the truth turns out to be. It’s possible, though I consider it highly unlikely, that there really is a genocidal, sexist, racist, homophobic, wrathful being who condones slavery, that is your Bible God. It really is possible that there is an even worse Jesus who would send people to suffer unspeakable eternal torment when they only sinned for a few decades. I would find it difficult to “worship” such beings, and would question why an all-powerful being needs worship or anything else, to begin with, but if that’s who God turns out to be, so be it. If my lack of belief means I spend eternity with billions of other people who either never heard of this Bible God or failed to believe the right things about him and his son, then that is what will be and I wish you would leave it up to each individual to work that out for him or herself rather than feel like you must call people delusional agents of the devil because they don’t believe what you believe.

            Morten, if you ever actually read the full NT, you will realize that Jesus would never approve of the behavior of a great many Christians, and would be appalled at what you folks have done in his name. You better hope there’s no Hell.

            By the way, did it ever occur to you that if you had been born in the middle east you would be telling us about your belief in the Prophet Muhammad and telling us that we were Satan’s agents for not believing in the same Allah that you do? You are Christian only by accident of birth. One’s religion is based, almost always on two criteria: the religion of the parents and the geographic location where you were raised.

            Get off this forum and go read the bible. Come back next year, after you’ve finished and we’ll have another chat. In the mean time, let these New Age God people, seek a god of love rather than put up with your god of fear. Who knows? Maybe they’ll find her… but I guess we won’t really know till we die, right?

  • At noon, I am sitting on the dock next to the water anchoring the light and love with many around the world to usher the new era of peace and love and healing on the Gaia with Gaia. Manifesting the reality I choose. namaste

    • Awareness

      The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

    • Morten

      Alert!!!!!! You are falling for this New Age crap. Read the Bible if you want the truth. Do not fall for this New Age!

      • mewabe

        Morten, let’s keep it simple and cut to the chase:

        What is your crucified Jesus concept saving you from, exactly?
        What is your devil concept tempting you with, exactly?

        Keep it personal and away from blanket concepts, such as “sin”; how have you been “saved”, and from what…in other words, what do you fear in yourself?

        I will repeat this last question, so you do not miss it:
        What do you fear in yourself? What part of yourself do you fear?

        • Morten

          You do not know much about the Gospel do you?

          Jesus Christ died on the Cross in order to pay for our sins. We are all sinners. We have all broken Gods law. Jesus Christ was a payment satisfactory enough for God. God is all just, which means He has to punish a sinner, like yourself. Instead of punishing us, Jesus has protected us from Gods wrath. He took it upon His only Son, Lord Jesus Christ. This way God could be just and be good to us at the same time. For this payment to work for you, you have to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Submit to Him and confess your sins, and ask for His forgiveness.

          To claim this is not part of your consciousness, is not correct. If you deny this to be true, then you are delusional, not conscious.

          I am sinner and have confessed my sins to Jesus Christ. God is our judge. Only redemption is through Jesus Christ. Do not make the mistake you can be your own judge and savior.

          Do you know what paganism is? It is what that is not of the true and only God, the Christian God, the God of the Bible. The Gospel is the heart of the Christian faith. It is not pagan.

          You are a follower. If you do not follow Christ, you follow the worldly flesh. You follow the world and whatever suits you. You deny your sins and follow the lusts of your flesh.
          You have two choices: Jesus Christ or the Beast.

          • Morten, beloved. all you are saying led me to this (see statement above) what are you waiting for? it is time to go further. Don’t stop now, wonder beacons. did you really think that all the messages stopped 2000 years ago? why? The lessons of the cross, “Greater Love hath no man than this” is an archetype that shows rising to LOVE is the example of Jesus. The highest is ding for another, sacrificing for another. that is the lesson For me the archetype of the Satan mentioned in the bible tells us that there is a mechanism within us (the egoic mind) that gets out of balance thinking it is master rather than the self. The Ego (Satan) is the mechanism that helps hold the illusion. this is a holographic illusion and we are here to play. When satan took jesus to the mountain and told him to look at the world (the illusion) and if he (Self) bowed down to worship him (Satan/Ego) it could all be his. However Jesus (Self) knew that satan was the false ego. It is illustrated all through the parables and bible, as well as the Upnishads and other religions on the planet. When Jesus cast out the demon asking to tell him the demons name… The demon called out. “We are Legion, for we are many” once again. the false egoic mind of the billions of fragmented egos of the mass consciousness. This the lesson of Jesus showing us the sacred heart is the answer.”Know the Truth, and the truth shall set you free” and the truth is, there is no sin, only choices of who you want to be. So if you choose to be a sinner that is your choice, but do not blame that on God. I for one am realizing that God only wants for me is to be the highest idea of myself. I cannot do that lead by fear and the idea I am less. This is the mechanism used by the dark to control and keep us down. That my friend is what I think, what I have created. “The answer to every question is LOVE. If LOVE is not in it, it is not the answer.”

          • Morten

            Trust in the LORD with all your heart & lean not on your own understanding. -Prov 3:5

            You have nothing that can back up what you are saying! You are being a fool to fall for the New Age babble. You are making things up!

            Jesus is God. He does not make mistakes or speak unclear. Jesus said: I am the Way, The Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6

            I do not blame God for my sins. I only know that I am sinful, just like you. You have sinned all your life and you need to repent and submit to your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. If you want eternal life, you have no other choice but to follow Jesus Christ.

            You came to this thread so you could be told the truth, to be reminded of what is true. You have no more excuses to say on your day of judgement that you did not know. Jesus is your Lord and Savior. Repent of your foolishness!

            God wants you to be His slave and to glorify Him! That is what you have been created for. This is the truth. This is not about what is fashionable or evolved to the next stage. God is the Alfa and Omega, everlasting, all knowing, all powerful, all, good and all just. His word is truth now as it was truth then. Truth does not change. Truth cannot change. Truth is just truth.

            Jesus Christ died for you at that Cross so that His blood could wash away your sins. If you do not take this gift you will end up in everlasting torment. You will be punished for your sins forever. There is no way around this. You can call me insane or whatever but I come to you in truth. This is the Gospel. It is the word of God.

            God bless

          • And yet, I have not resorted to calling you a fool. which is very un Christ like wouldn’t you agree? The torment you are describing my dear one is the misery you are exemplifying in the words you are writing, Separation (an illusion) from God might be considered hell would it not? The bible say to desire prophecy doesn’t it. The bible says to desire the holy spirit does it not? “trust not in your own understanding” sounds suspiciously to me like added controls added to the beautiful words of Christ by those who want you to look away from the Holy Spirit within. possible? Perhaps the council of Nicea had an agenda? Have you read or listened to “Conversation with God” by our host Neale Donald Walsch all the way through or did it challenge you beliefs too much in the beginning to go further and consider it. You know there are over 30 hrs of these conversations? How much did you actually listen to? There are examples all over the world of God bending over backwards to keep in communications with us, never giving up on us. trying different ways to reach us. Is it impossible that there is a newer testament. The old testament, the new testament, now the newer testament? Are you to believe he /she has nothing new to add as we have evolved and are continuing to evolve? really Morten? As I said before I will not miss out on the wonders of what God wants to show me because of fear of a false prophet. I will trust the spirit within to guide me in my disernment. And when I discern wrong. I will grow and evolve to my next best self. Now Morten, Your example of “Lean not on your own understanding” could mean that you are incapable of knowing the all of God which inspired the words in the Upanishads “Who is this being that fills us with wonder?” I Love You Morten my brother namaste (investigate the meaning of namaste my friend.)

          • Morten

            I tell you, what you believe is foolish.

            Conversations with God is written by the Devil. There is no evolving to the next stage. I have read the book and I believed the things you are into now. Truth has been revealed to me and it is Jesus Christ. He is your only Savior in this mess run by Satan. Jesus Christ is the true light. You are currently blinded by the false light, Lucifer.

            I love you too, that is why I am bringing the good news to you. Christ is telling you right now through these word: I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6

            God bless you.

          • Awareness

            The following information from Wikipedia is useful for further research and for QUESTIONING minds:

            “The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity Before Christ) is an 1875 book written by Kersey Graves. It asserts that Jesus was not an actual person, but was a creation largely based on earlier stories of deities or god-mensaviours who had been crucified, and descended to and ascended from the underworld. Parts were the reprinted in The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read edited by Tim C. Leedom in 1994, and was republished in its entirety in 2001.

            The book is often used as a source for many Jesus myth hypothesis writers, including Acharya S,[1] Tom Harpur and John G. Jackson. Many of the same theories espoused in the book are repeated in the documentaries The God Who Wasn’t There, The Pagan Christ”

            Graves, often citing Godfrey Higgins as his source, asserts in the book that the following messiah-like “saviors” were crucified on a cross or tree before ascending into heaven.

            Chrishna of India (Krishna), 1200 B.C.
            Alcestos (Alcestis) of Euripides, 600 B. C.
            Atys (Attis) of Phrygia, 1170 B. C.
            Bali of Orissa, 725 B. C.
            Budha Sakia of India, 600 B. C.
            Crite of Chaldea, 1200 B. C.
            Hesus or Eros (Esus), 834 B. C.
            Iao of Nepaul, 622 B. C.
            Indra of Thibet, 725 B. C.
            Mithra (Mitra) of Persia, 600 B. C.
            Prometheus or Æschylus of Caucasus, 547 B.C.
            Quexalcote of Mexico, 587 B. C.
            Quirinus of Rome, 506 B. C.
            Thammuz (Tammuz) of Syria, 1160 B. C.
            Thulis of Egypt, 1700 B. C.
            Wittoba (Vithoba) of the Bilingonese, 552 B. C.”

            The book claims that a number of these deities or god-men shared at least some traits of Jesus as described in the New Testament, drawing the strongest similarities with Krishna. For example, some figures had miraculous or virgin births, were sons of supreme gods, were born on December 25th” from Wikipedia 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            You rather believe in lies than follow truth. You are being seduced by the snakes tongue.
            All the others you list here are pagan and ascended masters. They are all fallen angels to make you believe a lie. They are old spirits who knows hat they are doing. Kersey Graves is a quaker and a liar. His philosophy on the Inner light is Lucifer. Do not fall for this or theosophy. It is from the devil. If you do not want the truth Satan will lead you to all places but Jesus Christ.

            Repent of our sins. Let go of your burdens. Jesus Christ is your Master. You are His slave!

          • mewabe

            Okay, you can stop trolling Morton…you got the attention you craved, and there are many other websites where you can spout dogma to your heart’s content, not to mention the YouTube comment sections.
            Happy slavery by the way.

          • Awareness

            “There was a black Christ or Christed One in certain cultures and other cultures had their version of the Christed One. In India it was known as Krishna. This Awareness indicates that Krishna is the Indian version of a Christed being. There were many Christs prior to Jesus. The term was used even as far back as Atlantis, and therefore, when they sought for a further defining term to call their new composite in the new religion of Rome, the concept of Hesus Christos, Jesus the Christ was the result and most entities could accept that because they had no hostility toward either term. ”

            “This Awareness indicates there was of course an entity whose name was Hesus and this entity came from Nazareth, lived in the area of Nazareth, and therefore, there was an entity Jesus of Nazareth who was one of the various entities in the composite; but much of the information attributed to the composite was information relating to other entities: Apollonius of Tyana for one, Krishna for another, and the Sun God of the Roman sun worshippers Helios as another.

            This Awareness indicates It realizes this is extremely confusing to many people. It does not expect entities to fully understand this, nor does It care whether entities accept this. This Awareness is only dedicated to giving truth as it sees it in response to questions asked.”

            “This Awareness indicates that still other earlier information on the deception in the New Testament has to do who really wrote the books of the New Testament. This Awareness indicates that much of the information was written by a family, the Piso family, and there is information about these entities and how they coded their own works so that they received credit for the writing, and you can find these coded references in the New Testament which fits with the code of the various writers of the Piso family. This as having spawned a society, a secret society that down through the ages has passed this information to various people and which can still be found, and information on this is available and has been mentioned previously, with an address given to allow entities to find more information on this family who wrote the new testament. *

            These entities having gone through certain competition with each other at one point, whereby their own family competition regarding who will do what, created between them the need to couch their material in certain codes and certain numerical properties to assure that they always got the credit for the particular book of the New Testament which they wrote. ”

            The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso (pronounced Peso)1 family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it–Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Maw, s all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist–are all fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters; they tied the story into a specific time and place in history; and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is, fictional!) characters.” – “The True Authorship of the New Testament” by Arius Calpurnius Piso PEN NAME Flavius Josephus 🙂

            “This Awareness suggests the editor repeat the address for the Piso family information in this reading.” by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) *The True Authorship of the New Testament, by Abelard Reuchlin, is available for $ 6.00 from the Abeland Reuchlin Foundation, PO Box 5652, Kent, WA 98064
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Roger Stockham

            Thank you, Awareness! I’m sending for the book right now.

          • Awareness

            There is also a pdf version on the internet. Search for “The True Authorship of the New Testament, by Abelard Reuchlin” on google 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            But you could be wrong about all this right?

          • Awareness

            Your question should be directly addressed to Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) 🙂

            If you wish to challenge the information given here by Cosmic Awareness, first I suggest you do the following:

            1. Get the “The True Authorship of the New Testament, by Abelard Reuchlin” and study it CAREFULLY (a pdf version is available on the internet) 🙂

            2. Arrange to speak directly over the phone with Cosmic Awareness. To do this send an email to 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            So you do not know anything to be true?

          • Awareness

            As I have indicated in my previous posts, I can know what is true for me in any moment by going within 🙂 By filtering everything through my HEART (natural guidance system) I can FEEL what is my truth in any moment. Note however that what is true for me in any moment may not be for you 🙂 My invitation to you is to find your own truth. All I have been doing here is to provide “pointers” for each and everyone here to find their own truth (and that is enough) 🙂

            Another invitation for you which I will restate again is:
            1. Get the “The True Authorship of the New Testament, by Abelard Reuchlin” and study it CAREFULLY (a pdf version is available on the internet) 🙂
            2. Arrange to speak directly over the phone with Cosmic Awareness. To do this send an email to 🙂
            Note also that Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) will tell you how it sees things from its own perspective and NOT what you want to hear 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            So you do not know anything to be true. You could be wrong about everything you think you know is true. Is that a good position for you to be in? For all you think you know is true could be an illusion. If so, who is writing to you now? Am i an illusion? How can you based on your own senses and reasoning based on your heart, know what is true for me? So believe in different realities, right? So how do you know that mine is not true?

            By the way, if you want to know anything to be true in your unknowing illusionary state of mind, Abelard Reuchlin has been debunked.

          • Awareness

            I can give you at least one example of one thing that I know to be true which I guarantee you cannot “debunk”. Are you ready?

            I EXIST 🙂

            Have you spoken to Cosmic Awareness as I have suggested? I have already cited the source of my information and have suggested an email you can contact if you wish to directly “argue” it out with Cosmic Awareness itself 🙂 So now it seems you have not bothered to do so 🙂 It seems you are not serious about finding your truth 🙂 So you do not even trust your own body? Is that what you are saying?

            You say “Abelard Reuchlin has been debunked”. Who has debunked him? Where is your source? Has anyone debunked Cosmic Awareness? You are also trying to debunk everyone else who disagrees with the obviously unbelievable fear based Bible 🙂 You are living in fear 🙂 Save yourself and be free 🙂 I FEEL free because I do not believe in fear based and “primitive”/Hell based Belief Systems (BS) 🙂 Forget about religion and save yourself 🙂

            Have your been Hypnotized by your religion?

            “This Awareness indicates that if entities would take the time to do a comparative religious study (and there are hundreds of books on the subject), entities would be amazed at the overlapping relationship and similarities between the various religions. This Awareness indicates that most entities, however, simply assume by faith, by dogma, by rote, by repetition, by repeating the programming they have received, that they are right in their present worship and religious views, and all others are of the devil, or are ignorant, or are evil, and have no basis at all for existing, except under the premise of false religions. This Awareness indicates that entities might even be shocked to discover that the other religions often feel the same about them.

            This Awareness indicates that the principle of remaining ignorant is to keep entities from discovering what is, by hypnotizing them to look only what you want them to look at. This Awareness indicates this likened unto a hypnotist holding a bauble or pendulum or trinket or crystal before the subject’s face, moving this back and forth and saying to the subject,

            “Repeat the name of this deity again, again, again, again, again, again, again, over and over and over, never question the power and righteousness of this particular deity, do not look at the false deities of other hypnotists around you, beside you, behind you, never turn, never look, never listen to what they are saying. Listen only to my words, listen only to these words, these are the holy words, these are the only words of truth. Listen only to my voice, listen only to my voice, my voice is all you hear. Read only these words, read no other words. Watch this bauble, watch this name, watch this crystal. This is the only possible truthful way, This is the only truth there is. All others are lies. All is false except this.”

            This Awareness suggests you take this kind of hypnotic programming and insert various religious deities in as the name of the bauble and ask yourself which is using this system, or are all of these using this system. This Awareness suggests you may insert the name Krishna, you may insert the name Allah, you may insert the name Christ, you may insert the name Mohammed, you may insert the name of whatever religious system, and you will find that essentially they are all using the same hypnotic technique of shutting out all questions and closing the mind through hypnotic suggestion to accept only that which they promote.” by Cosmic Awareness (GREAT SPIRIT! GREAT AWARENESS!) 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            How do you know you exist? How do you know that your senses are valid? How do you know that you are not strapped to a bed and have wires attached to your brain feeding you information as to what to perceive. It could be an illusion right?

          • Awareness

            I EXIST because I am here communicating with you. If I did not EXIST we won’t be having this discussion. I EXIST because I am AWARE of myself 🙂 My senses as far as I know are valid for me because they allow me to function in this reality. You eat when you feel hungry. Don’t you? You cover yourself when you feel cold. Don’t you? Although this reality is an illusion. And as “Communion with God” states:

            “Every conclusion you come to about the Illusion is, therefore, based on the Illusion. And so, every conclusion is an illusion” 🙂

            But there is a positive aspect to this discussion here, and it is that you are NOW ASKING QUESTIONS 🙂 Now I suggest you also apply the questioning mode to your current religious beliefs 🙂 And listen to your HEART 🙂 I am not asking you to believe anything. I am simply asking you to question everything including your most sacred beliefs 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            How do you know we are having a discussion. You believe in different realities right? You have yours and I have mine. Right? Still, how do you know your brain is not being programmed while you are strapped to a bed in a dark room?

          • Awareness

            I see it seems you have listened to BASHAR channelled by Darryl Anka 🙂 BASHAR does talk about parallel realities. BASHAR is a wonderful teacher 🙂 I have applied and demonstrated some of his teachings to myself in my life experience. One of his teachings is “parallel realities” 🙂 It is great to know that you are aware of “parallel” realities” 🙂 I have demonstrated the concept of “synchronicity” to myself 🙂 Perhaps you know about “synchronicity”?.

            Yes I sense there are different realities 🙂 Yes we have each different realities, but we can share realities by mutual “agreement” at a very high “soul” level. We are having this discussion because each of us has agreed to share this moment. This discussion can end the moment we change this “soul agreement” 🙂

            Since I FEEL free and happy, then I would have to accept what I am sensing in this my awake state (there is also the dream state which you know). I do not sense “bondage” in a “dark room” of any kind 🙂 Do you sense yourself “being programmed while you are strapped to a bed in a dark room?” 🙂

            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            I know we have this discussion. I know it is real, but how do you know? You do not even know who created you. You could be strapped to a bed and get this information through wires, right?

          • Awareness

            I created Me, Magnificent Me 🙂 This is because I and God and You and ALL That Is are ONE 🙂 Separation is an Illusion 🙂

            “You make your own reality: your dreaming reality, your waking reality, and all realities in which you have existence. There are no accidents. Your joys come from you, and your successes, and your failure, or what you think of as failure…” by SETH (GREAT SPIRIT!) 🙂

            I have full control of my experience period 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            You made yourself? Are you on dope? Wake up! You are drifting away on the rays of the false light of Lucifer. You are in danger of eternal suffering.

            The reality is that you are separated from your real God, the one and only everlasting force behind His Creation and beyond. The Alfa and Omega.

            You do not create your own reality. You can however create your own delusional thinking.
            You have to pay for your sins. Do you think you can get away with breaking His law. You can try and create your own this and that, but than you are being irresponsible and foolish. Especially when you cannot be sure about your own reality. Your worldview is fundamentally flawed. You are living dangerously.

            I feel like I am talking to a wall here. Listen. Jesus Christ has paid for you sins. You need to repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is your only chance to avoid judgement to Hell. Do you get that? Pray to your Lord Christ Jesus!

          • Awareness

            I do not believe a word of what you have written here 🙂

            “Your beliefs form reality. Your individual beliefs and your joint beliefs. Now the intensity of a belief is extremely important…

            And, if you believe, in very simple terms, that people mean you well, and will treat you kindly, they will. And, if you believe that the world is against you, then so it will be in your experience. And, if you believe…IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL BEGIN TO DETERIORATE AT 22, then so you shall.

            And, if you believe that you are poor, and always will be, then so your experience will so prove to you. Your beliefs meet you in the face when you look in the mirror. They form your image. You cannot escape your beliefs. They are, however, the method by which you create your experience.

            It is important that you here realize that you are not at the mercy of the unexplainable, that you are not at the mercy of events over which you have no control whether those events are psychological events or physical ones, in your terms.

            As I have told you, there is little difference if you believe that your present life is caused by incidents in your early infancy or by past lives over which equally you feel you have no control. Your events, your lives, your experiences, are caused by your present beliefs. Change the beliefs and your life changes.” by SETH (GREAT SPIRIT! ) 🙂

            I have enjoyed this interaction immensely 🙂 A reminder that I have no judgement in the matter of your comments here 🙂 I NEED absolutely nothing from you 🙂 You go your way and I go mine 🙂
            Bless ALL 🙂

          • Morten

            You need Christ!

            I am rich because I have inherited the Kingdom of God. I see the truth, I walk in truth and I love the truth. I am here to tell you that you are being deceived. You are under a spell and the only thing that can get you out is a willingness to seek the truth.

            The world is deteriorating. You are too. Getting older it is called. Death. 2. law of thermodynamics. Everything around you will come down. It is a fact. We people do not have the ability to reverse this. It is not about being positive or negative. It is about getting eternal life by the faith in Lord Jesus Christ. It is your only escape from death. Your body is full of sin and you need to repent and let the blood of Jesus Christ wash off the filth.

            This world is going down. It is coming to an end. There is a spiritual battle now and you need to choose carefully. Forget this world and forget your body. It does not matter. What matters is your soul. As of now you have chosen to follow the false light. Check out the Bible. All the prophecies are being fulfilled. You need to get updated and realize you are currently being deceived by the Luciferian spirit.

            You have only one life.

            God bless you, and seek the truth!

          • mewabe

            I think you missed the point Morten:

            The idea that a deity has to be paid for humanity’s misbehavior (or “sins”) predates Christianity by thousands of years. It is a very primitive idea that came from primitive man. Christianity embraced that idea and gave it a twist (no more need to sacrifice virgins or goats on a weekly basis, Jesus bled for you).
            This is what you are following, a very old and primitive idea. If it works for you, great, but you need to actually understand your beliefs and their origin so that you can make an intelligent choice.

            And rather than answering in a personal manner, human to human, you are regurgitating rigid dogma like a brain-washed cult member, which is rather typical of many Christians. Again, if this lifestyle works for you, that’s great, but be aware that no one, apart from your circle of fellow believers, can take you seriously, as there does not seem to be anyone left upstairs at the present time, just dogma.

          • Morten

            You are believing in lies. You are missing the point, because you do not like the idea that you will be judge for your behavior in this life. You are a sinner. You have broken Gods law and your ticket out is to let go of your sins and repent! Only way!

            “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” John 3:16

            You have no excuse on your day of judgement!

            With love

          • mewabe

            Morten, you are not conversing, you are talking at people…there are millions of people like you out there, who have literally lost their mind, who have no mind of their own, and whose brains have been overtaken by fear and guilt-based dogma.

            Are you for real, or are you trolling? It’s hard to say, really, because you sound so fake.

            In any case, happy trails.

      • Kristen

        Go you. Keep the faith. Neale knows he is chanelling Satan, and is either making informed choice or is under duress. Im inclined to go with duress, noone can be stupid enough to tell such crock against God and the Truth and to not be shirtting their pants. Ive tried for many years to get him to stop, learn to see the funny side of it and just laugh. Peoples choices are their choices and they know very well blasphemic choices carry hhhhhuuuuugggggeeee consequences. If anything, feel sorry for Neale digging himself the biggest hole ever, and dragging his wives, family, friends and fans into it. The things people do for money huh?? And there is no redemption, people have to right their own wrongs and get everything back to neutral before God will even help them. Neale doesnt want anyones help anyway, Ive tried and he knows to just ask. Ive given up but it will be a fun Judgement Day to watch. Ringside tickets for me!!
        Take care,

        • Morten

          Thank you, Kristen!

          I just recently became Christian, and I have also been fooled By Neale and all the new age nonsense. So, I see why people easily get trapped. It gets hold of you to the point that you are willing to not even exist in order to stick to this worldview. It is insanity. It is like a mantra, love, peace, love, peace. It is scary. I come here wanting to help and shake people up from their sleep. I know it is up to God to do the divine work and give life, but to stir their reality up, could at least make them think about their own situation. I just want to help. I also hate the lies, and I think all the liars should be pointed out!

          Thank you again for your support. It is much appreciated. It does not happen very often.

          I get think skin for doing this and I see that can be very helpful in the long run. We are only warming up for the times to come. Now and then, I get to see the grace of God when I sense that my message is sinking in to people. It has only happened a couple if times, but boy it is such a huge privilege to be a small part His work!

          God bless you, Kristen


          • Kristen

            Thanks. I am a Levite Kabbalist, and thankfully never got reeled into all this shannagins. Apologies for not supporting you earlier when the lions where in full attack, I did a deal to leave Neale alone, his silly gods slaves broke the deal, so Im back. Ive worked for God for many years, I literally get instructions!
            As you know cowards cannot get into the final Heaven/Earth so good on you for facing a brave fight in here. This is where you will see the brainwashing and blatant attacks on anyone of he real God at its worse. As the books point out, they only attack out of fear.
            Anyway take care, head up, and yes, its nearly all over, at the top of the Tree of Life the 12 Thrones in Revelation are complete (Daniel has one so he has arisen) and the big Throne is nearly complete, which are the Laws I study as a Kabbalist via intuition so I can see the work in progress. We know Neales Gods outcome soon, and his followers. Its their choice, they are well informed. Fools.

          • Patrick Gannon

            I would have loved to see Morten’s response to this post. Morten has no clue what a Kabbalist is, and would call you part of a Satanic cult if he did. Kristen, you don’t believe what he believes – fundamentalist Christianity, and I’m pretty confident that if he understood how your beliefs differ from his, he’d be telling you to prepare to share Hell with the rest of us!

          • Kristen

            Nope but I can see your point. Kabbalah is the Tree of Life journey both in the first and final Eden, and Jacobs ladder in Scripture so it is a very positive thing three times in his bible. He will also be able to read what a Levite is. We became the ‘sacrifices’ dedicated to God to replace the poor animals, before Yshua took this role from us…..although we are still rounded up and put to work, a bit like compulsary military service! But yup, I live in Christianville, and they are kind of scared of us and cannot see past one sentence Yshua incorrectly stated…’I will give eternal life to all those who believe in me and God as my father’. The core of Christianity! When I point out I study under a Rabbi and do papers through the Hebrew University in Israel they then believe Im not an evil witch after all!

            Give the guy a break, he is new to religion and an enthusiastic born again Christian. Although its a man made religion, and the religion in Scripture is actually Judaism, he is getting there. At least he knows cwg isnt the biblical God! I think he is cute!!! Born agains make me smile cos they are like cute little kids and sooooo enthusiastic. Although Id personally rather live with the Amish!


          • Patrick Gannon

            Your posts almost always leave me with a smile! You remind me of one of my sisters.

          • Kristen

            It doesnt say who that comment was to, but if it was to me, I get that a lot! Its very odd but even in arguments etc guys get protective of me. Or laugh at me. But thats ok, I milk it for all its worth!! With females as well, many of my customers at work are quite elderly and are very huggy and talk to me like a daughter or granddaughter, and people always really nice to me. Its very odd and funny! I just play the role of a bimbo and give them what they want!

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yeah, that was directed to you, Kristen.

          • Kristen

            Lucky. Figured it was, it would have been really awkward if Morten reminds you of your sister, or someone who doesnt show personality in here…..or Blake!!
            Ill stock up on bandaids, make some wooden swords, find the Action Men complete with jeeps, set up my mean Lego collection WITH the electric set and get some new pads for the tramp. Im in for a hiding I guess!
            Whats is wrong with your sister, you feel sad?

          • Patrick Gannon

            There’s nothing wrong with my sister. She’s, shall we say, a bit more spiritual than I am. She was the one who sent me CWG after I first read the bible and went through my ‘angry atheist’ stage. The funny thing is, she sent me her personal copy and it was a misprint. It had a large section repeated, and the several chapters missing – and she never noticed! I thought that was funny. I noticed though. Just like I noticed when I was reading the bible that God had told the Israelites to kill all of a certain tribe and they were wiped out to the last man, woman, child and beast, but then several chapters later, they were fighting them again! How could that be? They were all wiped out? I notice stuff like that.

            Anyway, she’s usually upbeat and positive, like you. That’s why I said your posts leave me with a smile sometimes. Nothing sad at all. She likes to make people happy. She sells clothing to rich old ladies and still does Hula dancing (not sure if she still shakes it for Tahitian), which she learned when we lived in Hawaii as kids.

          • Kristen

            Oh good, I could just feel like a sad little smile! Hawaii…how lucky to live there. When we went there as kids I was fascinated by the artist at the market who can sketch you, still have a pic in the rumpus room, man I rocked a bowl cut with a mullet. I was fascinated by side profiles from then on, and have watched my 17 year old sons nose change from a cute button nose to an adult nose over the last year. Although in Hawaii I did manage to break my nose trying to surf!! The story of my life……….if you cant be good at something, then be really really really bad so you can laugh instead of crying!

            Re the scripture…..Ive told God to take a ‘the crazy made me do it’ card like murdering psychopaths on Earth do! But yes there are lots of anomalies but remember lots of the Bible is from verbal story telling through one family, much of it parables, like other groups on Earth have in their race groups or cultures. The only difference is that the world is obsessed with our stories, family and God like no other. Especially academics, they make me laugh.

            I could have guessed your sister sells clothes, many of our personality type do. All these things are deliberate from above. Although my day/bill paying job is as a cake decorator, my love is my online 2nd hand clothes shop, especially vintage and upcycled and altered beauties although I do gorgeous suits for my dog show customers!! But Ive just realised the average person is a nz/uk size 14 and I generally do ‘my normal’ which is an 8/10. Oops! There is so much joy in being thick sometimes!

            You are very astute for a guy, is this expressed in your job or hobby?

  • Thanks so much Morton. I understand your position. I accepted Christ as my personal savior at 17. I have read the bible many times, studied it thoroughly. I was a bible school teacher. Music director, ordained elder with the presbyterian church. baptised three times because different people “In the know” told me each way I was baptised was wrong. I have tried to live “Greater Love hath no man than this” when I was a compassionate police officer putting myself in harms way for strangers. Have a wonderful prayer life. I have lived with the teachings of Jesus as my guide as well as I could. Then a wonderful teacher showed up who I thought was jesus. When I asked “who was it that he said he was” he stated…” I am that I am.”For a year he met with me in the garden of The Audubon center next to the water and showed me how to be still and know. to search within. I was immediately healed from PTSD fear and bitterness dropped. No pain from the past, no fear of the future. I was permenantly in the now. no time at all. Fully present. I taught myself that all searching leads to God. I studied buddhism, Hinduism, went to a vedanta service. If you like the bible, you should read “The Upanishads” so beautiful with the same messages as the bible only culturally biased. “Who is this being that fills us with wonder?” beautiful. I am on the Bhagavad Gita. I also looked at science… Quantum mechanics, Quantum physics Medical science. Have you read “The Holographic Universe?” WOW! My dear Morton, all of these searches led me inward to God within. The macro and the micro, fractals. When I told myself, that I would no longer miss out on communing with God for fear of running into a false prophet that there was nothing I would refuse to look at out of fear. that is when everything broke loose for me. David Wilcock educated me on the role of the Pineal gland (the Third Eye) and the symbolism of the pineal in the Catholic church and more. Joseph Campbell Helped me understand the “Power of the Myth” and the repeated history of religion in the world. Another teacher and friend introduced me to Sitchin and the Anunaki. My prayer and meditations with the Holy spirit ushered me further until I came across Neale Donald Walsche’s “Conversations with God” Listening in rapture and joy as Ed Asner and Ellen Byrsten read aloud for free on the internet. I found Neale’s other books as well. Thanks so much Neale. I hope you know what joy has come alive in me when you decided to believe that God was speaking to you and you dared to write it down. many teachers have shown up with the most influential one being my own inner wisdom, known as the the Holy Spirit, some call Self, some call Spirit, some the source, the great “I am that I am” having read all this you know I had a serious sit down come to Jesus meeting with God and begged him that I would not be led astray. His answer was “Why would I let you be lead astray. I love you” fear Not! Then I was given a clear message of our time. “The answer to every question is LOVE. If LOVE is not in it, it is not the answer.” For me Morten, it is not what is God, the question is what isn’t God. We are ONE all of us. every person, my cat, my house, my car, the sky the stars are all you and you are all God. and by the way. God has not said I was wrong about that yet. This is my path and I am thankful for it. Tell me your path and I will celebrate it with you. namaste my friend

    • Awareness

      Greg Dampier wrote: “The answer to every question is LOVE. If LOVE is not in it, it is not the answer.” 🙂

      Your message on LOVE resonates with my HEART FEELING 🙂 Thank you for sharing 🙂 The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂

      “The moment you surrender to love and allow it to lead you to exactly where your soul wants to go, you will have no difficulty.” – “Home with God” by Neale Donald Walsch 🙂

      “The meaning of Life is to have Love in your Heart”
      “Love is the solution for everything”
      “Love is the key”
      “Be prepared for the Light Energy Transformation on Earth”
      “Now is the opportunity to evolve your consciousness”
      “Activate your Love in your Heart and send it daily to planet Earth.” by ALAJE the Pleiadian 🙂
      Bless ALL 🙂

    • Kristen

      Cool, you have a cat.

      • yes Kristen, the cat’s name is “Little Sister”

        • Kristen

          Great! We have Tigger, Ollipop, Mia the Pia and Vegemite (a yeast spread for toast), dumb finches all called Bob, and hedgehogs Cyril, Roger and Frederick. Although ones a girl cos it breed! What an exciting conversation!!! Marko has cats too, if I really want to sound ever so ‘speshul’, but Mewabe ups everyone as he has deer and bears!
          Im a Levite Kabbalist but cats are much more interesting in this current state of education overload, house renovations and a degree to finish this year. Yawn.
          Xx (Israelite/Kabbalic blessing in the form of a forehead kiss, to bless your pineal chakra to allow flow to the crown, whilst shutting down the evil version which is the third eye).

          • mewabe

            You forgot: hares, hawks, racoons, ground squirrels, ducks, non venomous snakes, dozens of wild turkeys, and many horses, lamas and goats in the neighborhood.
            The crown chakra Huh? Yes, I feel plenty of energy there (like little lightening storms just above my head, a sort of magnetic/electrical energy, at times very strong, at times like a vortex) That’s how I communicate with the spirit world, from there…done this for decades, it just happened, it opened up without me seeking to make it happen…just by spending much time in nature while being a spiritual seeker, seeking truth above all in all things.
            Darn, the fried bread is burning, gotta go.

          • Kristen

            You are so boring……why non venomous snakes. Get some real man cards. Or is that the CwG role? Serpent, just in case you didnt get it! Llamas, cute. Arent they like alpacas? If I leave the burbs and drive ten mins I can go to a customers place to see her alpacas. Does that count?? And I can wear my Daniel Boone fake racoon tail hat maybe? As loathe as I am to admit it, whispering…..I can even put on my Native American chief headress. No I didnt buy it, the ex mother in law decided my daughter would want it. And the cat peed on it. Any ideas on what to do with it respectfully and wthout voodooing myself?

            Yup about your crown chakra, I often feel lke a tight beanie on my head to ground me and shut it down, just a tad over active. People fail to realise the Third Eye as promoted in Hinduism, is the Illuminati sign which I am sure Neale is a part of (worst white supremist group ever in spite of Neales God having the darkest skin I have ever seen), is deliberate to hold people back so they cannot seek the truth via the Crown Chakra AND is 666s sign on peoples forehead. I know you dont know scripture prophecies, so 666 is the anti-christ/He of Lawlessness/Neales God whos name means peace. There is no redemption for those who receive this mark, so the word namaste sends shudders down my spine. As did Neales peace of the soul that he called off in Dec 2012.
            Let you go tend to the fried bread. Or toast by now. Send me some again, it was yum, especially the bluey green lumps that formed as it travelled the world. Or was that llama poo?

  • Wilma Ice


    Your being here on this thread gives a voice to the beliefs that many in our world adhere to, to the rigidity and the constraints that so much of humanity opts to live within. The lack of freedom of which you speak (that all are slaves to something), and the lack of possibility that you write of (your belief that life/God is as it is and is unchanging) are very nearly the beliefs I once held as well. For a relatively short number of years those beliefs seemed to help me to love better; later, as I grew, those same beliefs (because I could not and would not expand them or permit myself to be honest about my questions and my thoughts), caused great pain for me spiritually and emotionally.

    Morton, are you not taking the path that is most expected in the current day and culture, assuming that one is seeking spiritual growth and development at all? It’s expected that one adopts Christianity if one lives in a country where most spiritual seekers are Christian, or that one will adopt another religion if yearning to understand and know God, and living in a culture where another religion is dominant. To dare to approach God individually, with open heart and mind, asking only that we be shown the way, the path to understanding the Divine, is a most arduous path and one that it takes great courage to embark upon and mature with. Never dismiss this as New Age malarky simply because your belief system does not include it as an authentic path to knowing God.

    You have within you much courage as well, because it takes courage to speak as you do on this site. Although you speak for a quite large group of world citizens, it is not that group to which you are speaking here. Your mere presence here is encouraging to me, if we can search together, not for right and wrong, but for the common ground that we have in our love of God, the common ground we have in our love of life, the common ground we have in our intimate understanding of Divinity. If we can embrace one another as God embraces each of us, then you and I, then Christians and non-Christians, will move forward as partners in loving transformation of a world needing to see God in action. There is no room for either of us to dismiss the other, and getting caught up trying to promote a belief system increases problems without solving any at all.

    If your sense is that judgement of some sort must be satisfied, and this is too strong to ignore, allow judgment to come not from one of us, but from the Creator of both of us. At the heart of Christianity is the commandment to love….love self….love brother and sister… God… One. This is the heart of my New Age CWG understanding of God too.

    What I understand, and what many in the world also understand, is that we live in a world of divine possibility where all of life is continually expanding and blossoming into something new and greater. The Christian perspective is about living from the heart and soul, and not just how well a belief system can be articulated or made appealing to another. To build common ground, I would encourage focusing more on living from the heart and less on explaining our differences. At the level of the heart and soul, we all seek only one thing… manifest the love of God as fully and completely as possible in the physical world.

    So much of the spiritual journey happens apart from what we intellectually grasp and articulate. It happens in the being and doing of life. To argue well (as you do) might actually be a deterrent for some of us to understanding and being intimate with the Divine because we get caught up with what we think we know at the intellectual level, instead of moving into the world from our heart and soul. To reach beyond the intellectual boundaries you have around you requires a wide open heart where being right does not matter, but loving, healing, inspiring does.

    Thank you for being here,
    I hope that you stay with us
    and share more about how
    what you understand and believe
    your capacity to live peacefully,


  • mewabe

    Something has been missing in the “dialogue” with Morton, from what I can see.

    Morton has been repeatedly trumpeting the need to “repent” from one’s “sins” for the redemption of which Jesus presumably died tortured on a Roman cross.
    Furthermore, any other path is, according to him and many other Christians, the works of a “devil”.

    Am I the only one missing this?
    I will repeat what I wrote previously:
    The idea that a deity has to be paid for humanity’s misbehavior (or “sins”) predates Christianity by thousands of years. It is a very primitive idea that came from primitive man. Christianity embraced that pagan idea and gave it a twist (no more need to sacrifice virgins or goats on a weekly basis, Jesus bled for you).
    This is what Christians are following, a very old and primitive idea.

    This is the problem with Christianity…the problem is not whether Christians can be loving or compassionate, or not, but with this belief, which is obviously erroneous.

    • Stephen mills

      I totally agree Mewabe I was at a Catholic christening a few years back and I could’nt believe what I was hearing the priest came right out and said that the baby was born in sin and the only way out was through Jesus ….I had to walk out .
      Such nonsense and as you say primitive thoughts .

      • mewabe

        It is possible that the origin of such a belief in a demanding, judging and condemning deity came from primitive man’s perception of death as punishment (especially early death), as well as his perception of natural disasters as punishment by an unknown force for trespasses against some made up rules, rules made up by a priestly class.
        The bible is choke full of such examples of droughts, epidemics, and other disasters described as punishments from God, and even today some fundamentalists and evangelists frame aids and other disasters, natural or man made (even 9/11), as punishments from God for having disobeyed some biblical rules.
        It is kind of disheartening to see that so many still have a worldview that has not evolved from the time primitive man thought disasters and death were unleashed by an angry God for being disobedient, a belief reinforced by a priestly class that sought to exercise control and authority other the fearful group.

    • Mewabe & all the others here. My recommendation is, pick your battles. Just thumbing through all these posts, even casually is tiring,–and reminds me why I don’t indulge precious time on such matters that are closed & stubbornness & rigidity are the names of the game being played.

      Perhaps many here like to play this game, count me out except for this brief moment.

      Ask yourselves is it worth it? For me, I answer no, but you all may find some enjoyment in this, if so, carry on. If not then don’t.

      • mewabe

        I agree Marko, being pulled into this type of ridiculous exchange does not show wisdom, or a wise use of time…as there is no real exchange, just talking at each other.
        I try not to fall for this usually, but I tripped this time 🙂

      • Patrick Gannon

        Speaking for myself, I saw it as an experiment. Normally I don’t engage fundies like this, preferring to debate religionists at a much higher intellectual level, but I’ve been studying Christianity a lot lately and wanted to see if I could make an impact by feeding the Christian religion back to the fundie to see if understanding one’s own religion would help open the mind and heart. Obviously this was a complete failure; though I did enjoy the process. What I think I conclusively proved is that you can lead a fundie to knowledge, but you can’t make him think.

        Morten doesn’t really know anything about his own religion except a handful of bible passages some cleric – who is the real culprit here – has taught him; and he has no real interest in learning more because whatever he learns might contradict his beliefs, and he’s apparently far too weak and fearful to deal with that!

        The thing is, the CWG approach didn’t work either. Even though he hasn’t read the bible, he claims to have read CWG. Morten correctly (in my opinion) sees CWG as part of New Age Religion (NAR) and he rejects its personable New Age God (NAG) – as do I, no matter how nice she is. I really don’t think we need more religions and more gods. That’s the problem in the first place.

        In Neale’s Valentine Day message in his weekly newsletter that I receive, he quoted from his own book extensively just as though it was the “Gospel of Neale.” “Conversations with God told me,” “Conversations with God warned me,” “Let me quote directly from CWG-Book One,” “From these messages in the CWG text I have inferred,” “As CWG said, and I quote again,” “God says in CWG,” etc. You get the idea. Neale is treating his book as though it were holy scripture, as though it was a bible, as though it was the basis for a new religion. We don’t need more new religions. Paul and Muhammad may have had the best of intentions, but look at the legacy they left behind, and should NAR/NAG survive into the future, in time I suspect, it will create just as much dissention and separation as any of the religions that came before it. No matter how pretty the language, it can always be turned around. Just look at how Jesus saying, “I did not come to abolish the law,” turned into a Christian doctrine saying the Jesus came to abolish the law; thereby ensuring separation from the Jewish religion that preceded it.
        Neale wrote “The Storm Before the Calm” but I think the “calm” will only occur after the radioactive dust settles to the ground and the earth starts over again without us. I don’t think our species is going to make it, and I think that’s the norm in our universe; but who knows. Maybe there is intelligent life in the universe and we’ll know it one day when big UFOs show up and laser beam every church, synagogue and temple into oblivion.

        • Well Patrick you have an interesting take on this.

          Neale has never had any intention to making CwG into a religion. CwG in fact, is quite critical of religion.

          The material comes through his filter & he acknowledges this. He does not ever say this is a perfect translation of God’s message. He does say we get to choose what works or doesn’t work as far as the material is concerned. If it resonates use it, if not don’t.

          CwG states “Ours is not a better way but another way.”

          • Patrick Gannon

            CWG, page 68 in my book:

            “Are you suggesting – you’re not suggesting, are you – that these writings might one day become “holy scriptures”?

            “My child, everything in life is holy. By that measure, yes, these are holy writings. But I will not quibble with you over words, because I know what you mean.

            No, I do not suggest that this manuscript will one day become holy scripture. At least, not for several hundred years, or until the language becomes outmoded.”

            Neale’s way of treating CWG, as though it was scripture, sure seems like an attempt to have it taken that way, despite what the book says.

          • Gina

            One thing I observe in situations where some folks say things like, Neale’s motive is this, or his intention is that, is, you don’t have to scrutinize someone else’s intentions or motives. The genuinely meaningful and more relevant question is, what is your intention? If, after asking that question, some outside guide posts such as this forum align with your inner truth and knowing, then join the group, contribute ideas, or share your passions. If not, move on.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Gina, I’ve contributed here since the forum started. I drank Neale’s Kool Aid a long time ago, but as time went by, from my perspective, I saw it morph from a spiritual movement into a business. I have bought and given away numerous CDs and a few CWG books. I have as much right to question his motives as anyone else. Sitting in a circle singing Kum Ba Yah is analogous to sticking one’s head in the sand.

            If you are interested in my ideas and passions, please read this entire thread beginning to end, and you should have a good idea. Unlike Morten, with whom I and others held a rousing discussion, I don’t claim that Neale is an agent of the devil! Did you suggest that Morten move on? I think he was great for this forum. How many of Neales’ globalconversation forums get this much action? It was a great exchange of ideas. New Age God (NAG) vs Fundie God. Nobody won, but I had fun with it.

            When I look at the CWG movement today compared with what it used to be, and when I see Neale treating his book as scripture, I think it’s fair to raise flags. After all the biggest selling book in history (even if Christians don’t read it), is the bible. There’s a lot of money to be made in selling sacred texts! The Jehovah Witnesses know this better than anyone. They are a publishing company masquerading as a religion. Neale’s movement looks more and more like that to me as time goes by.

          • Gina

            Hi, Patrick. I wasn’t speaking of your “right” to question someone’s motives as in a shareholder’s right to inspect or vote, so much as who it serves and what purposes.
            I don’t get it about singing kum ba ya and asking Morten to move on. As for reading your exchanges with Morten, I don’t see them as exchanges at all, but like Mewabe said, talking at each other. This is not the biggest “action” on the web site, but off-topic ramblings, one of trillions of other worn out, so called, debates between people of different religious persuasion. Just look at any forums or Youtube comments dealing with such matters. What are your motives in having one of those on the global conversation web site? This particular headline doesn’t call for one of those debates in my view.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Gina, I shot that message off a bit quick. My point about singing Kum Ba Ya is that this forum strikes me like that sometimes. There is seldom any serious debate or discussion such as this particular post. Usually Neale writes a column and people take ideas out of his books and regurgitate them without a lot of original thought – in my opinion. If you don’t talk about the hard issues, you can’t do anything about them.

            I thought you were asking me to “move on” when you said, “If, after asking that question, some outside guide posts such as this forum align with your inner truth and knowing, then join the group, contribute ideas, or share your passions. If not, move on.” My question was – why should it be just me who should “move on,” why not Morten, and in all seriousness, unless someone is being rude, obscene or completely out of line, why should they “move on”? This is supposed to be a global conversation. Perhaps I didn’t understand what you were saying.. It struck me as a ‘do it my way or leave’ kind of comment. Sorry if I misinterpreted it.

            I expressed above in another post why I conducted my debate with Morten as I did. I make no apologies for it. I seldom if ever see people use the bible itself to try and respond to fundies as I did. It was worth a shot.

            As for whether this particular headline called for this debate is immaterial to me. I see it similar to a meme – just a point with which to start a discussion and see where it goes. There’s nobody here moderating the discussion and keeping it on a specific topic. Conversations are frequently free-wheeling and wide ranging. To me, that’s a good thing. The point is to continue to converse.

          • Gina

            The web site is an outgrowth of the book the Storm before the Calm, and it is for making a movement out of the inspirations and idea exchanges found in CwG material.
            Let me see if I got you correctly.
            That Neale quotes the material is trying to turn it into scripture. Since stuff other people write is regurgitation and unoriginal I will put some (or a lot) my original, age-old debate on Christianity into it. Neale’s motive is questionable. He is turning this into business. My motive is scholastic at best and vane at worst. Any misinterpretation?
            I’m not trying to control anyone or scold them. I just don’t want the space to be cluttered with all kinds of stuff. Being original is one thing, obnoxious is another. Go to Youtube and search with keywords like, Christianity is false, Bible is fake and you will find tons of very familiar, original (?) debates. Deja-vu. This space can become that page after page after page.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Then don’t read my posts if you don’t like them, Gina. There are certain people here whose posts I skip right over, so feel free to skip over mine. It won’t hurt my feelings one tiny bit, regardless of how vain and arrogant I might be.

            Is this your forum? Whether YOU want the “space to be cluttered with all kinds of stuff” is inconsequential to me.

            I think it’s interesting that you don’t like my assertion that Neale is trying to turn this into a religion, when you start out by saying “it is for making a movement out of the inspirations and ideas found in the CWG material.” Replace the words “CWG material” with “bible” and what do you have – a religion.

          • Gina

            I don’t see this becoming a religion any time soon. My interpretation of the situation of course. If anything, CwG is not becoming action enough. I skipped over much of the Christianity bit indeed. This is not my forum, just wanted to give some airtime to the idea of dumbing down on the web site.

          • Gina

            A movement is not a religion. The civil rights movement or national liberation movement are not religion. Why the gaps and leaps in logic, unlike in your exchanges with Morten?

          • Patrick Gannon

            Are you joking? It’s illogical to consider a movement that has the word “God” as its central theme as a religion – or to at least assume that it is such?

            Yes there are different kinds of movements, but are there any other movements that have a deity associated with them that aren’t religions? I can’t think of any offhand; can you? Is it or is it not all about Neale’s God? I would say that the definition of religion comes pretty close to describing the “CWG movement.”

            Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

            This is a trite and unimportant issue I think. Besides what would you know about my “logic” if you skipped over all my posts? Why are you so upset with me? Do you hold the same beliefs as Morten and you’re upset that I’ve challenged them in challenging the bible as the true word of God? Is there something deeper going on here regarding your hostility to me? What was my sin? Challenging Morten or challenging Neale, or just refusing to sing Kum Ba Ya and pretend everything is roses and fairies?

          • Gina

            I’m not upset at all. Are you upset with me?? I’m challenging you challenging Neale and Morten–some points you made. I didn’t skip all of what you wrote, probably latter half of the exchange. I began to read earnestly and noticed that Morten wasn’t having any of it. He repeats the same phrase ad.infinitum and what’s the point of you going further, parading extensive knowledge of the Bible? Religion involves worship. Religion may have started as a movement. CwG is more of a challenge-religion in content and not as dogmatic in format.
            Your sin is bringing up my sense of futility trying to convince dense, maniacal fudies, which I shoved aside unsuccessfully, hahahaha. Just kidding. It’s all well since you say you’re enjoying it. Probem with written words–you can read anything out of anything.

          • Kristen

            GIna and Patrick……….as serious as this discussion is, and I am on IQ and academic strike other than medical studies, I just want to say I love Kum Ba Ya, sung best with a vocal orchestra of Yshua Happy Clappys. Does that make Brownies and Scouts a cult that corrupted my innocent little mind???
            As Erin would say….”food for thought”.
            How can you all function being so negative, critical and serious about such trivia?
            This whole site is so negative, unproductive and irrelevant to life!

            Gina, did you ever find Marilyn within?? Much more interesting.

          • Gina

            Sorry for being so negative. I’ve yet to wake up Marilyn fully–probably because I’m so critical of everyone about trivia and not go ahead with positive energy and airhead abandon. 🙂

          • Kristen

            Haha. Good girl for seeing it!! I assume you know when you apologise to anyone you are apologising to yourself?! Even if in jest.
            Find Marilyn, shes in there somewhere, a classic part of the different female archetypes, we cant be complete or whole until we have pulled them out. Criticism is a male trait, females offer help or productivity. The world falls apart when we stop our role. Like it has now! Maybe Tinkerbell or a princess may want to come out and play before Marilyn. They love pretty dresses and heels…..even if under a beige coat, and dont use words of more than 8 letters…..airheads are fun, you get to view the world from a far, be nice all the time, see everything through happy rose tinted glasses and I have found you develop only child syndrome which I assume mentally prepares you for the battles ahead when a bit of selfishness may be needed. Erins a Tinkerbell a lot of the time now too!
            Take care Gina,

          • mewabe

            A little criticism hurts no one, and Patrick does have some valid points 🙂
            I do think that the quality level of exchange got dragged down by Morten…we should have just ignored him as he was acting more like a religious troll than someone interested in conversing.

          • Gina

            Why pick on Patrick rather than Morten? Because the first one is the sensible one, and without any attention or reactions, the other one would just rest in pieces.

            To dear Patrick: It’s an easy trap to fall for, with a little bit more appeal to logic, intellect, or common sense, I could turn that fundie around. Ha ha. Been there, done that. The more you invest energy and time, the stickier everything gets. As Abraham-Hicks said, words don’t teach, life experiences teach. And as ACIM said, when the student is ready the teacher will appear who meets him halfway. You can’t be a teacher to everyone, at all levels. There are people to whom you are the teacher they’ve been waiting for. It will be made known to you, perhaps by an undeniable feeling.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Gina I view forums such as this as petri dishes to some extent. TGC provided an opportunity to try, what at least for me, was a new way of confronting people like Morten. I normally converse at a much higher level with religionists, and have bailed out of forums filled with people like Morten, because you are absolutely right – the harder you try to persuade them, the deeper they dig their heels in. However I have not seen many people actually try to use what’s in their own religious texts as a way to get them to consider their beliefs. Usually people throw science at the fundie, or as in this forum, New Age God/Religion, but few people take the book that they base their beliefs on and show them what it really says, because very few people actually read it, and almost nobody reads it critically to discover what are some significant contradictions, not just in the details of the texts, but in the theology of the religion.

            I thought it was worth giving it a try. I figure if someone says the bible is inerrant and then I provide specific examples that someone like Morten can look up for themselves – perhaps rationality would kick in. I think he actually looked up Jesus’ last words – a very simple example, and saw that they aren’t the same, and hopefully that’s churning around in his head. There are three accounts and they can’t all be “true.” His head may explode if he spends too much time thinking about it – so he probably won’t think about it! The experiment, at least in this case, was an abject failure, but I don’t feel badly for having tried it.

            This is not just a problem with religionists. The more science you throw at an anti-vaxxer the more determined they are to leave their child unvaccinated, thereby endangering the child and certain others who aren’t vaccinated for legitimate reasons, like babies. The more science you throw at folks who deny climate change, the more they insist it’s all lies. The more you throw evidence at religionists, the more they dig their heels in and shun rational thought.

            We’ve got to figure out what to do about this as a society, and it’s important in my viewpoint to try different approaches because these people are pulling all of society down with them in their stubborn ignorance. It strikes me as a psychological problem. I don’t see NAR/NAG as making any meaningful difference. When I first drank the Kool Aid, I thought so, but that’s been years and reality has set in. The situation with our society is not improving, and if I come up with other ideas, I may try them out to see what happens.

          • And you get to choose what resonates & what doesn’t.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Yes, but 200 years from now, if it becomes holy script, will that still be the case? Do fundies say that we can choose what resonates for us out of the bible, or are we mandated to be homophobic bigots because some primitive texts says we have to be?

          • 200 years from now I think we will be evolved enough to a world where critical thinking and spiritual evolution will have enough wisdom to self regulate what works & what doesn’t.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Marko, I sure hope you’re right, but I’m not nearly so optimistic. Just being here in 200 years is likely to be a big accomplishment. It looks to me like we’re going backwards when it comes to critical thinking and spiritual evolution. The growth of fundamentalism in religions is pretty significant; but I haven’t done any research to see if they are outbreeding the general population. That looks to be the case in Europe, but in the US you see reports that show how youth are fleeing the church, while at the same time there are little Morten’s running around like a school of ravenous sharks.

            As a reflection on critical thinking, I read that in a recent survey of Americans, the NSF found that 25% think the sun goes around the earth, 61% say ‘false’ to the idea that the universe started as a big explosion, 52% opposed evolution, and 70% say we give too much money to science. If we’re going to find out what consciousness is, we’re going to need science.

            Critical thinking requires a lot more depth than our twitter society is willing to entertain. If it’s not in 25 words or less, our society in general, won’t think at all, never mind critically!

            The number of galaxies * the number of stars with planets * the number of planets in the ‘habitable zone” is so huge that we should see signs of life everywhere, but we don’t. It’s quite possible that most civilizations like ours simply hit an evolutionary roadblock, like an out of control virus running out of sustenance; and the survivors, if any, are very few and far between. It’s hard to see anything special enough about the human race that indicates it’s going to get over that evolutionary wall, if it’s a place that ends most species.

            In order to evolve, perhaps it is necessary for cataclysmic events to occur from time to time, and we’re due for one. Without the asteroid, the mammals wouldn’t have evolved. Ice ages, black death, world wars, and other events have probably given us evolutionary tweaks, at least at the physical level – I’m not so sure about evolution at the spiritual and intellectual levels. The problem is that extinctions also occur at those events.

            If we do muddle through, I think science will be able to tell us a lot more in a couple hundred years about what “consciousness” really is and that will probably answer a lot of our questions about gods and afterlives and so forth and we won’t need sacred texts anymore. I sure hope you’re right.

          • I think simply using, understanding the LOA or Law of Attraction more deeply, using the illusions of life in our favor (in stead of our detriment) will create the life we desire.

            First individually, later collectively. We can speculate endlessly, but I feel working, playing, visualizing & taking positive action wherever we go & are, is a step we can take to make a better difference in our world.

        • mewabe

          As has been said: “God, protect me from your followers.”

          I do suspect that despite Neale’s best intentions, and in spite of the fact that he does try to make his messages as clear and understandable to everyone as possible, there is a strong possibility that some other people will attempt to distort his words into a new gospel after he is gone, and start a new kind of religion.

          I believe I have read Neale himself calling his material a new theology, and this is very dangerous ground to be treading.

          People are always eager to follow and to engage in group thinking, which is actually non thinking, rather than searching within for their own inner truth and guidance. Following is the easy and lazy way, the way of absorbing material that is already prepackaged and predigested. Doing your own search takes more dedication and an independent spirit, and such qualities are more rare, particularly among people who are former followers of a religion (many of Neale’s audience have a Christian background).

          • Patrick Gannon

            Neale too is highly influenced by Judeo-Christianity. In his book he thinks Moses was a real person. The chances of that are practically nil, given that we know today the Exodus did not occur in any way, shape, form or fashion as described in the bible. There isn’t a shred of real evidence to support the idea of 2-3 million people (500,000 fighting men plus families, and foreigners) going from Egypt to Canaan and then slaughtering everyone when they got there. No mainstream archaeologist thinks it happened, but Neale seems to think Moses is a real character who did what the bible says he did. From CWG:

            “You are, as Moses was, an earnest seeker. Moses too, as do you now, stood before Me, begging for answers. “Oh, God of My Fathers,” he called. “God of my God, deign to show me. Give me a sign, that I may tell my people! How can we know that we are chosen?”

            And I came to Moses, even as I have come to you now, with a divine covenant—an everlasting promise—a sure and certain commitment. “How can I be sure?” Moses asked plaintively. “Because I have told you so,” I said. “You have the Word of God.”

            Of course that idea that the Jews are “chosen” people is why there is ongoing death and destruction throughout the middle east. You’d think God would have foreseen what a mess he would make by “choosing” the Jews as separate from and better than, everyone else. The first step for peace in the middle east in my opinion is for Israel to publicly announce that the Exodus did not happen as described and that they are not the chosen people and that they have no divine claim to the land they are on. I’m not suggesting they leave, just acknowledge that they have no divine claim, and that might open up the conversation with their neighbors whose ancestors they claim to have raped, pillaged, butchered and enslaved at God’s command, through his agent Moses. No wonder their neighbors hate them. They bring it on themselves by insisting that primitive mythology is factual.

            Neale thinks Jesus actually performed the miracles that were attributed to him:

            “Jesus had such clarity. Before every miracle, He thanked Me in advance for its deliverance.”

            “Had Jesus felt that all illness, mental or physical, represented imperfection, would he not have simply healed everyone on the planet, all at once? Do you doubt that he could do this?

            No. I believe he could have.”

            I don’t believe the stories of Jesus’ miracles. Surely they developed as myths in the oral traditions that evolved in the early church. In order to make him divine; the myths had to give him such abilities in order to do what other gods did, but did he really raise Lazarus from the dead? Highly unlikely in my opinion, but it seems that Neale believes in those miracles. The thing is, if a man had really been walking around doing such astounding things, historians would have made note of it; but there are no records outside of those written by the followers of Jesus – not among historians and not among pagan writers, to indicate that anyone actually did what Neale apparently believes Jesus did, and yet there are quite a few historical documents that discuss things that really happened at the time. I could go on… Neale’s God says Jesus didn’t suffer on the cross – well Mark and Matthew would disagree with that, while Luke and John would not, so God disavowed two of the gospels, one of which, John, is the key source for Jesus’ divinity. We don’t know what happened on that cross. I tend to side with those who think Jesus really believed God was going to pull him down off that cross at some point and was rather surprised when it didn’t happen. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” I rather suspect that similar thoughts went through the heads of Jim Jones, David Koresh and others who claimed to be something they weren’t.

            Although there is much in the way of great advice for personal fulfillment and self discovery in CWG, it bothers me to see it treated as holy scripture. We don’t need another religion.

          • mewabe

            Patrick, I am only a tourist on this site. I do not belong here, I just walk through periodically out of curiosity. I have fun contributing…

            Any talk or writing that has the word “God” in it turns me off, as it is a very negatively charged word, negatively charged by religion. Neale has interesting things to say, although many of these things were said by others before him but in a more intellectual manner that did not appeal to the masses quite as much, but these things can only be of interest to those who have not yet grown out of basic Christian of other religious dogma, and need and seek guidance to do so. You will notice that most here have a Christian background (unfriendly territory as far as I am concerned).

            I come from a totally different background…my spiritual path has always been about consciousness. Life as I know it is an experience in consciousness. I do think that all life is divine, but I doubt very much that a divine source or mind would actually think it a good idea to communicate with us to tell us how to think, feel and live. A true teacher does not do this, but empowers people to find their own answers: that’s true empowerment. That’s how Native Americans taught their children.

            Neale generously and kindly sent me his Storm book and I read it, but that is the only book I read fully. I thought it was a little shy in its critique of some of the world ills. But I understand that he does not want to offend part of his audience, the more conservative part.

            I read a few pages of CWG, and I did not see anything in there I had not already figured out when I was much younger. I also noticed a few errors (about history, etc) and as you mentioned, assumptions based on Neale’s religious background, as well as many topics that were very superficially approached or oversimplified.

            In my opinion Neale would have been better off entitling his books “conversation with Life” thus avoiding the assumption that this might be a new gospel coming straight from an authoritative, universal divine source as conceived by religions. I believe Neale’s material came from his consciousness, and as such, it is interesting to look at…but let’s keep the “God” concept out of it, not to mention that atheists are obviously not interested in reading such books, so this perpetuates yet another separation.

          • Patrick Gannon

            Mewabe we are on the same page. “Conversations with Life.” Great idea. That would have been so much better.

            I have a pretty good idea of where at least some of Neale’s ‘stream of consciousness’ came from. He’s clearly read Robert Heinlein’s “Stranger in a Strange Land.” Much of his message comes from that philosophical work of fiction. An amazing book, and one I have read many times.

          • mewabe

            I will check out this book…

      • maybe this is the beginning of a consciousness communication. The internet is not that old relatively speaking. This forum is younger still. Maybe a new niceness will be created. Thus far it can get a bit hurtful. but being clear with one another in the written word is difficult at best. Words when spoken
        are a very weak way of communicating. It lacks the most effective
        element of communication which is experience. (CWG) Then writing the
        words is an even weaker way of communicating, it lacks the element
        of experience then further lacks tones, smells, hormones,
        energies, eye contact, body language etc. Some even have psychic
        abilities which distance weakens?. This may be why there are so many broken relationships and wars. Too much relying on the weakest form of communication
        and add assumption in the mix is a recipe for failure. That’s what
        I think. I have heard it say we are in year 2 of the new golden age, and at the beginning of a new renaissance. Imagine week 1 of the last renaissance. was it messy transitioning from the dark ages? was communication perfected in those early days? was it like this? imagine. 🙂

        • You make some good points Greg.

  • Roger Stockham

    You have to be stupider than Morten to think you can reason with him. STOP!

    • Patrick Gannon

      Hey, I’m having fun! He’s not going to buy into the CWG story, so I figure it’s worthwhile to try and teach him something about his own religion. This is supposed to be a global conversation; I’m conversing. Remember in a forum like this, there are often people who just lurk. Very few people, Christians or otherwise really know much about Christianity, so even if what I have to share doesn’t resonate with Morten, perhaps it will be useful information for others. It does appear that he went and looked up the last words of Jesus and noted that they differ in the various gospels. That’s a start. Perhaps he will look up some of the other items as well… Little chinks in the armor… It’s all good.

  • Roger Stockham

    Lame question, “Can Humans Ever Embrace the True Nature of Love?” First, there are far too few ‘True Humans’ capable of embracing anything for it to matter, globally, if some could come to know and share universal Love. Those of us who can and do are so far outnumbered by the ‘deliberately ignorant’ that our positive energy is dissipated in the miasma of their negativity. Still: It is a beautiful expression of our God-given Nobility that we nonetheless TRY to enlighten them. Amen.

  • Kristen

    Gosh this thread is boring!!!!! But cwg isnt exactly interesting I guess.
    America looks very cold at the moment, as we bask in glorious Indian summer, zero rainfall in January. Yipee. Now……weather is so much more exciting!! What about a climate change chat Neale. How the wealthy are doing so much harm in their sheer greed, thank goodness for “God will destroy those who destroy the Earth”. Hell, even Judgement Day would be a more interesting topic!!
    PS Im gonna get an ‘I LOVE MORTEN’ TSHIRT. The lions den is always fun. Artwork suggestions Mewabe??

    • mewabe

      Can’t concentrate on tshirt artwork or on feeding fundamentalists to the lions, too busy doing a rain dance and howling at the moon…California is bone dry again…But our state government found the solution, thank God: shower every other day! I am not making this up, this is bureaucracy at work, a wonder to behold.
      As the drought gets worse, the bureaucrats will keep finding amazing solutions, such as asking that people shower once a week. Where would we be without political leadership?

      Seriously, I did ask for the rain to come a couple of weeks ago, and it did, violently, for a few days, right in the middle of the drought. Coincidence? I will try again (it’s a mind/consciousness thing, as everything else).

      • Kristen

        Haha. Yup last we spoke you had rain. Or mudslides more to the point. If you are a tax/rates payer, arent you glad that they came up with such a mind boggling solution. Better than most would. Saw a doco on it late last year, and how LA likes to use everyones quota! In most other third world countries people would be grateful for a weekly shower, why would America think differently? Imagine the smell at Walmart?
        Heres a plan….ground all planes for 3 days, air temp will rise by 3deg as it did post 9/11, precipitation, humidity etc, you know the drill, and viola, rain! But ship the bureaucrats out before shutting down airports.

        I am sure your rain request worked, try again, even if just for the animals….but you will be losing a point with Marko, you dissed him for believing in visualisation being able to create change. Surelymanifested desire is the same whether via consciousness or visualisation??? I have no opinions on either other than for protection & healing, nor experience, because I seem to get my own way but only because what I/we have is what I want anyway! Winter…..whole different ballgame. I sulk for 4 months!

        I have two followers………..Im cool again. Might have to rock out some more poetry! Or plan A, u can. Rain dance poetry.

        Take care and hug a tree.

      • Kristen

        Oooohhhhhh. You have four followers. Does that make you a guru with groupies???? Your dream.

  • Erin

    Wow! Been disconnected from tech-world for the last month while communing with furred & feathered Beings of Other-kinds. (sooo wish I had furriness of my own in this below-zero stuff!). Popped in here to see how things have been rolling, read thru the threads, and first thoughts were, “Wow!”…with a sighed, “Really???” on the side.

    Arrogance is Humanity’s grandest downfall, no doubt…A fairly common observation of ‘others’, btw. We continue to imagine that We are All that Matters…that We are the Supreme Intelligence on Earth, or Anywhere…that We are the Only Sentience of Existence. Yet, if Action truly speaks louder than Word, Our example thusfar simply shows a highly evolved parasitic nature, above all else…another common observe, btw.

    Funny, but, I have actually experienced what Neale is saying on this recent venture. I found myself apologizing, in tears, for the ways of Human…Our disrespect of Life, the greed, the excuses, the arrogance. I was pulled to the ground, being enveloped in the despair of Our-kind…Apologizing. An over-whelming warmth lightened this moment, & I looked up…I was surrounded…entirely surrounded by my other-kind friends…11 Equines, 5 Canines, many Felines, a lovely mix of Fowl, & a goat…At peace, all together, in one place, all around me…An Amazing moment, indeed! A pup-paw rested on one knee, while I was being brushed up against by cat, & a horse nose touched my chin to stand. I was lifted back up into Oneness.
    And in the very next moment, all everyone wanted to do was play…the running, jumping, barking, bucking, chasing, flying, ensued with renewed enthusiasm…and a whole lotta Love…for Being Life-ly.

    Angels, messengers, harbingers…many forms, through All times. Some do not write, some do not speak, but All touch. Lighten Up, Beloveds…literally. Blessings to simply being part of Life…and Love. <3

    • mewabe

      Indeed there are two worlds in existence, one of nature (the natural creation, or the Tao), and the world of humans.
      Humans should be part of nature, but most choose not to be, and to act mostly in opposition to nature, identifying primarily with mental creations, with their concepts, beliefs and ideas. Then some are ready to hate and fear, and kill or die in the name of their ideas and beliefs, such as the concept of a nation, or of a religion, or a political system.

      Spending time in nature (or with natural beings such as animals) reminds us that we are earthlings…we are as much an expression of the natural creation as are clouds, trees and ants. We belong here, in this universe, fully and completely. It is a good feeling, the closest to “oneness” one will ever experience in physicality.

      Many look for spiritual realms and otherworldly dimensions . But if this physical universe was created by a divine source, is it not as spiritual as the so called spiritual realms?

      The human world, on the other hand, is a very strange world…separate. No doubts animals (especially wild animals) must sense that there is something very wrong with our ways, which are not the ways of nature, but oppose nature at every turn, even our own inner nature.

      “After you have exhausted what there is in business, politics, conviviality, and so on…what remains? Nature remains.”
      Walt Whitman

      “Forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair.”
      Kahlil Gibran

      “Every individual is an expression of the whole of nature, a unique action of the whole universe.”
      Alan Watts

      • Erin

        Thanks for the added Love-liness, mewabe! Always nice to be brought back to Real, esp. when we remain open enough to be caught before falling into a Mind-pit.

        Of the experience, I was hit on all sides by Dependency. I came here, and was hit again. (ergo, the ‘wow’ response.)
        Funny thing, Dependency…It can bring us to Understanding of co-existing well, as in caring for each other’s needs…or It can divide us harshly, as in one’s need to be the only right. Some find great comfort & respect depending on one’s environment…Some find their comfort in depending on things they do not See…Some seem to relish themselves in the dependencies they incite. Dependency can do harm, or strengthen connects…Just a funny thing.

        I will be looking at Myself more closely of this matter…Where my own dependencies lie (literally)…How they effect me & those of the realms I play in. Should be an interesting project of process. (Ha! Aren’t they all?) Wouldn’t mind a smokey blessing blown this way (NEPA, USA) for this one! Thanks in advance. <3

        • mewabe

          Thank you Erin!

  • Awareness

    I was asked a great question regarding who “created me” during my participation in the comments here. My answer was simply “Me”. I am my Creator, I am my Source, I am indeed GOD and so is everyone and everything else 🙂 And then when I awoke this morning I decided to open the book “The Vortex” by Esther and Jerry Hicks and I saw and even clearer answer that I Am GOD (Source) 🙂 And everything is GOD 🙂 I quote below the even clearer answer:

    “Before you focused part of your Consciousness into the physical body that you now recognize as you, you were an intelligent, clear, happy, nonresistant Consciousness eager for this new experience into which you were emerging. Before your birth, the only relationship you experienced was your relationship with your Source; but since you were, at that time, Non-Physical, and therefore nonresistant, you experienced no discernible separation, and therefore no discernible “relationship,” between you and Source. You were Source.

    In other words, while you have fingers and toes and arms and legs, you do not see them as separate Beings. You see them as part of you. So you usually do not try to describe your relationship with your leg, because you understand that your leg is you. And so, before your physical birth, you were vibrationally intertwined with Source, or with what humans call God, but the full integration of you with God was such that there was no relationship between the two—because you were all One.”

    “In the moment of your birth, a part of your Consciousness that is you focused itself into your physical body, and your first relationship began: the relationship between the physical you and the Non-Physical You.” – Abraham (SOURCE ENERGY!) in “The Vortex” by Esther and Jerry Hicks 🙂
    Bless ALL 🙂

    • Erin

      Seems to be a season of epiphanies, Awareness…Beauty-filled Understandings emerging, indeed! Had a fun conversation a while back when asked the question, “How do you live your life toward your God?” My reply was, “I do not live ‘toward’ a God, I live as Being One.” Rock the boat on a calm sea with that one! 🙂

      • Awareness

        The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂
        Bless ALL 🙂

    • John Cox-Woolven

      I have not read that book ( or even heard of it before your comment) but I will now! Thank you for bringing it to my/our attention. It resonates deeply with me and I were to try to explain the decision process for my incarnation to myself, this is how I would have done it (if I had the vocabulary and the talent of Esther and Jerry Hicks). Thanks, you have lead me to a Grander version of the Greatest Vision I have about myself and I will set about implementing it.

      • Awareness

        I am extremely pleased to be of service 🙂 The Law of Gratitude is Given 🙂
        Bless ALL 🙂

  • Mel

    I have only recently begun reading Neal’s books (I am currently reading The Storm Before the Calm), but one message that resonates with me is the idea of unconditional love. Years ago I rejected the Christian god because I couldn’t rationalise the idea of a vengeful god, who would damn his children, with the idea of a god who loved us unconditionally.
    My God loves unconditionally, which means there are no conditions we have to fulfil to be loved. As a parent I get this idea, although applying it to others is my greatest challenge. As a teacher I have learned to separate the behaviour from the child and love the child and this seems to me to be the way forward.
    Learning that God and me are more closely connected than I had comprehended before gives me even more reason to put external behaviours to one side and love the individual. It gives the words ‘love your neighbour as you love yourself’ a whole different sense, doesn’t it?.